Hey all

[Godel escher]

Hi ;)

This welcome/hello post is likely to be something a little longer than standard, so bear with me.

I am an atheist, where I define atheism as the lack of belief in a deity. Should you wish to define atheism any other way I won't complain, but the term will likely no longer apply to me.

My lack of theism is the result of my world view, not the world view itself. Agnostic, then, because my personal epistemology does not allow 100% truth, or rather asserts that we cannot know anything with 100% certainty.One central part of my epistemology is that the evidence in support of a claim must outweigh the consequences of the claim being made.

I am not a solopsist, for reasons which I could go into but won't for the sake of brevity.

Why am I here? Well, for a number of reasons really.

I am here to learn more about people,culture and belief systems. I hope that by engaging in rational and civic discussion; thus having to think about questions that I may not necessarily have thought of asking myself, I may question my belief system and thus gaining a chance to extend my perspective and worldview. And vice-versa.

I learned, not a huge time ago, of something called the one true mind fallacy and I find that the more I consider it the more truth it holds. In short it's the projection of ones own mindset onto others, the presumption that people process information the same way but somehow reach different conclusions. Instead I consider that the information given is the same, but people process it differently and so form differing conclusions. This is a quest to understand those who process information differently.

But hey this is me, a 18 year old male, atheist, agnostic, and happy to answer any and all questions with a view to us better understanding each other. We may ultimately agree to disagree, but I hope at the end each of us can be armed with more questions to challenge and expand our belief systems, thus fulfilling the purpose of a discussion forum.

Cheers.

Godel Escher Basch.

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

Welcome to the forums.

Islams evidence of God is the Quran. But relatively speaking, if I made a Claim that there is a God, you would want evidence, hardcore evidence I assume (like how the Earth orbits the Sun). This what differentiates the believer from the disbeliever, one who has "faith" and no "faith".

If there was absolute proof of God, no one would dispute it, there would be no kind of "faith" or as we Muslims call it, there would be no Test for mankind. It's part of the test to believe in the "unseen".

In simpler words, if God made it so that there was no doubt about his existence, it would be too easy, the good would not be seperated from the bad, people will act differently to how they normally would've because the effort of having a purpose in life would no longer exist as everyone would know what happens after they die. This is the believer's stance to the "concrete proof question", ofcourse for us Muslims, the Quran is concrete proof enough, for non-Muslims (who have tried to study it) it's still somewhat a mystery they are trying to unravel.

There is one thing to me that stands out very strongly in the Quran, and that is the Promise of the Last day and the resurrection (return to our Creator). It stresses this throughout the holy book and speaks to people as if they are "always going to doubt it", saying sentences such as;

"if only they knew..."
"but they know it not..."

etc. The promise that is so stressed in the Quran, we Muslims believe it will come true. And forgetting everything else for just a moment, it made me raise the question, "what if". Choose to believe in it or not, is entirely upto each individual, for me I choose to believe in it (ofcourse other factors had me convinced that this is the truth).

[PouringRain]

Welcome to the forum.

[Rafeeq]

Welcome to the forum Godel

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[selsebil]

Hi Godel,


Welcome to the forum.Hope you'd benefit from your stay here.

[Godel escher]

Thank you, Perseveranze.

Islams evidence of God is the Quran. But relatively speaking, if I made a Claim that there is a God, you would want evidence, hardcore evidence I assume (like how the Earth orbits the Sun).

There's nothing such as hardcore evidence. It's just that the evidence in support of a claim must outweigh the consequences of the claim being made.

Glad you can see it from another perspective.

Peace,
This what differentiates the believer from the disbeliever, one who has "faith" and no "faith".

If there was absolute proof of God, no one would dispute it, there would be no kind of "faith" or as we Muslims call it, there would be no Test for mankind. It's part of the test to believe in the "unseen".

Disagree.

The thing is I don't see how faith is a virtue. Faith makes virtue out of not thinking, too often leaves space for gullibility, thus manipulation by others.In almost every cases in our life, believing in something without evidence is considered the symptom of gullibility; the person is laughed at, however in the case of religion, it somehow becomes a virtue? That sounds ridiculous.

Or

It can be that in this case, the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.

In simpler words, if God made it so that there was no doubt about his existence, it would be too easy, the good would not be seperated from the bad, people will act differently to how they normally would've because the effort of having a purpose in life would no longer exist as everyone would know what happens after they die.

I for one don't believe that we as human beings have a particular "purpose" in life.

There is one thing to me that stands out very strongly in the Quran, and that is the Promise of the Last day and the resurrection (return to our Creator). It stresses this throughout the holy book and speaks to people as if they are "always going to doubt it", saying sentences such as;

"if only they knew..."
"but they know it not..."

Surely, any reasonable person would doubt it considering the lack of evidence.

And forgetting everything else for just a moment, it made me raise the question, "what if".

I too think about it.

What if the universe is not what we expected it would be and we are still in shock and haven't adjusted to it?

Choose to believe in it or not, is entirely upto each individual, for me I choose to believe in it (ofcourse other factors had me convinced that this is the truth).

Seems like your belief system functions entirely differently than me.
Or is it just in this case ?

Little by little, Science has been filling the gaps in our knowledge; the "god of gaps" has been getting smaller and smaller. Maybe a creator may not be needed at all.

Cheers.

Godel Escher Bach

[Al-Mufarridun]

Welcome to the Forum.

[Amat Allah]

First: wellcome my respected brother to IB forum as a new memeber of our precious big family...

secondly you said:

Maybe a creator may not be needed at all.

With all my respect, I want you to answer this shortly with yes and no; with no explanations and complicated sentences to be understood my respected brother...

So, if I gave you a well designed small wooden box and you asked: who made this?

and my answer was: none, it just been found and none created it... honestly my respected brother, just tell me would you believe me?

[Godel escher]

secondly you said:



With all my respect, I want you to answer this shortly with yes and no; with no explanations and complicated sentences to be understood my respected brother...

So, if I gave you a well designed small wooden box and you asked: who made this?

and my answer was: none, it just been found and none created it... honestly my respected brother, just tell me would you believe me?

I would point out that your premise is faulty and already biased.

Anyway, The answer would be no.

Then I would like to ask you a question in return. Please do the same; answer each of the questions in a simple yes or no.

Imagine this situation:

If you chop your one arm off, would you still be yourself?

Well then two arms?

Your legs?

Your eyes?

Your ears?

Your head?

Would you still be yourself?

Are the characteristics and functions of the parts of your body same as your whole body?

Is the sum of characteristics and functions of the parts the same as the whole?

Is the characteristics and functions of the universe the same as its parts?

Then:

Is the characteristics and functions of the universe the same as your well designed wooden box?

The sum of parts does not always equal the whole. Just because some wooden box is created by humans does not mean the universe is created too. To think so is a logical fallacy. The universe is so old, vast and grand ;It cannot be even comprehended fully by our minds; Even human beings are insignificant in comparison to it. A wooden box made by human beings? ... Hmm

[Amat Allah]

I would point out that your premise is faulty and already biased.

Anyway, The answer would be no.

Then I would like to ask you a question in return. Please do the same; answer each of the questions in a simple yes or no.

Imagine this situation:

If you chop your one arm off, would you still be yourself?

Well then two arms?

Your legs?

Your eyes?

Your ears?

Your head?

Would you still be yourself?

Are the characteristics and functions of the parts of your body same as your whole body?

Is the sum of characteristics and functions of the parts the same as the whole?

Is the characteristics and functions of the universe the same as its parts?

Then:

Is the characteristics and functions of the universe the same as your well designed wooden box?

The sum of parts does not always equal the whole. Just because some wooden box is created by humans does not mean the universe is created too. To think so is a logical fallacy. The universe is so old, vast and grand ;It cannot be even comprehended fully by our minds; Even human beings are insignificant in comparison to it. A wooden box made by human beings? ... Hmm

Bismellah Tawakkalna ala Allah wa laa hawla wa laa qowata illa beIllah

Sub`haan Allah...

I too would point out that your premise is faulty and already biased not completely but it needs to be rewritten and corrected.

anyway:

Yes, I will be my self; the same me but have lost some of my limbs and organs and that would make my body lose some of its characteristics and functions which gone with what I lost and that won`t change that my whole body with its organs and everything in it had been created by The Creator...

and Surely, I will be my self and will still a creature of the One who created me whether with one leg or no eyes...

everything has its own characteristics and functions and whether it lost it or not; its creator will be existed and the same...

All Praise be to Allah the One Who created you...

my respected brother don`t forget that the whole get affected and lose some of its characteristics when losing some of its parts...and what gave the whole its characteristics and functions? but the parts which make up that whole...this is when we talk about the creation and created things...

parts are needed to make the whole whole...and the whole won`t be whole if losing one of its parts...

but we can`t say this about the real Creator of the everything and everyone because Allah is whole by Himself and what He had created and still creating are not part of Him at all , thats why no matter how changes will be in what He created; He will still the same and nothing would cahnge Allah from His creation...unlike the universe if it would lose something it would change ..imagine losing the sun...then what would happen to the universe? many things would happen...but what would happen to Allah Who created it and the whole universe ...of course nothing even if the whole universe disappeared...cause He Is The Real Creator and nothing and none like Him...all Praise and Glory be to Allah...

your premise is : if the parts of the whole are created then it is not necesary for the whole to be created cause the parts don`t have the same characteristics and functions of the whole...

your premise will be %100 right and true if you would differentiate between The Creator of the worlds which this universe and its parts are not a part of Him at all but His creation, unlike the body and its parts and the universe and its parts...

and neither the body created its parts by its own nor the universe created its parts by its own; they are all created by Allah and His commandments my respected brother Who created you and your fingers which typed the above reply...

Allah knows if you will understand what I typed above cause you strongly do not believe in it and Allah knows if you will understand the following verses or not... May Allah make you understand them and lead your way to the path of the endless happiness...Aameen

Allah says:

"Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water which Allah sendeth down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and (in) the ordinance of the winds, and the clouds obedient between heaven and earth: are signs (of Allah's Sovereignty) for people who have sense. (164)" Surat Al Baqarah.

"O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth). (5)" Surat Al Hajj.

"Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding, (190)" Surat Aal Imraan.

"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; (12) Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; (13) Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! (14) Then lo! after that ye surely die. (15) Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again). (16) And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation. (17)And we send down from the sky water in measure, and We give it lodging in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it. (18) Then We produce for you therewith gardens of date-palms and grapes, wherein is much fruit for you and whereof ye eat; (19) And a tree that springeth forth from Mount Sinai that groweth oil and relish for the eaters. (20) And lo! in the cattle there is verily a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, and many uses have ye in them, and of them do ye eat; (21) And on them and on the ship ye are carried. (22)" Surat Al Mu`minun.

got nothing to say but Sub`haan Allah indeed Sub`haan Allah...

[Muhaba]

welcome to the forum. i how you learn something here.

i really don't understand how people can be atheists or agnostics. i mean, how can someone believe that God doesn't ixist or that there is no proof for the existence of God? where do you think that everything came from? who started life. who made the solar system, the earth, etc? all of it didn't and couldn't come into being by itself. even if one believes in evolution, one will have to answer the question, where did the first cell or organism or particle come from which then evolved?