Mukhannathun (Effeminate Ones) - Some Clarification Please

[Tyrion]

I asked a few questions in this other thread, and it was recommended that I start a new thread as to not derail that one. To save time, I'll just link you to that thread, and copy&paste my post here:

Original Thread

My Post:

I'm confused as to what your situation actually is... Maybe you can clarify... Are you saying that you're a male with homosexual tendencies? Where you actually born a female? Were you born with both male and female parts? From reading your post, it just sounds like you might be dealing with homosexuality, but please correct me/clarify if I'm wrong...

Also, I'm a bit confused over the ahadith Hamza posted on the first page... The ones referring to "mukhannath". I've never actually heard of the term before, but one of the Hadith you posted also refers to them as eunuchs... Is that what the term means? Is it also the OP's situation? I don't think he mentioned being a eunuch... Or is it maybe a reference to transgender women? Is that what the OP is talking about?

Again, I'd love some clarification on all this so that I could follow this thread more closely. It seems like an interesting and not often talked about subject...



EDIT: Wikipedia has confused me even further on the term "mukhannathun"... Here's what I found:

Analysis of Scholars

This curious fact about the early history of Islam did not escape the notice of Islamic scholars past and present.
According to the scholar and hadith collector An-Nawawi:
A mukhannath is the one ("male") who carries in his movements, in his appearance and in his language the characteristics of a woman. There are two types; the first is the one in whom these characteristics are innate, he did not put them on by himself, and therein is no guilt, no blame and no shame, as long as he does not perform any (illicit) act or exploit it for money (prostitution etc.). The second type acts like a woman out of immoral purposes and he is the sinner and blameworthy.[3]
Furthermore there is the observation of Ibn Abd Al-Barr who was a contemporary of An-Nawawi:
The mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is (also?) the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women. [4]"
In the current era, scholars in Iran, and Egypt have issued Fatwas supporting the right for those who fit the description of Mukhanathun to have sex reassignment surgery. In Pakistan to this day, there live Hijras. The Muslim Hijras have been known to refer to themselves as Mukhannathun when speaking Arabic.

Gender/sexuality

The mukhannathun as a group do not fit neatly into any one of the prevailing categories of gender or sexuality used in the West at this time.[3] While they were certainly not straight, it cannot be said that they were simply homosexual males.[3] While they are gender variant, it seems that the intensity differs from one mukhannath to the next.[3]

Sexuality

In "The Effeminates of Early Medina" Everett K. Rowson describes the very same Mukhanathun who appear in the Hadith, and who were companions of the prophet Muhammad.[3] Rowson describes several other Mukhannathun who were contemporary to the Prophet Muhammad, in particular Tuways and Al-Dalal. Tuways was a talented musician and singer who lived to the age of 82.[3] Tuways is known to have married and fathered children.[3] From what is written, Al-Dalal clearly preferred men.[3] Specifically it is written that though "Al-Dalal enjoyed women's social company any sexual demand made of her was in vain". Al-Dalal is said to have had a sexual encounter with a woman on her wedding night. Al-Dalal then later that same night had sexual relations with the groom.[3] Similar stories exist about the other Mukhannathun of Medina. [3]
According to Imam Muhsin Hendricks:
Muhammad did deal with a group of effeminate men in Medina called “Mukhannathun”.However, while this group of Mukhannathun did possess qualities of modern gay men, it cannot be said that the Mukhannathun fully represent modern gay men, as they were involved in practices not common to contemporary gay men.

-----------
So it seems to be saying a lot of things... The definition seems to also be a little shaky, with it meaning anything from eunuch, to homosexual, to transgender... Can anyone shed more light on this stuff? Are we even qualified to be telling the OP about this?



EDIT #2: I realize that this post might run the risk of derailing this thread... If a mod feels that this would be better off as its own seperate thread, please feel free to move it. (Or just let me know, and I'll be glad to copy this and move it to a new thread myself.)

The Wikipedia article that I referenced.

Hopefully someone with some knowledge on the matter can enlighten me on all this stuff... Thanks in advance.

[Tyrion]

Bumpity bump bump.

[nature]

:sl:

Ive seen a couple of programmes on enuchs, in india, come across a few whilst visiting pakistan. Theres a lot of stigma attached to these people & i never really understood why?. I dont think its anything to do with homosexuality is it ? Basically arent they like drag queens, & want to be like a woman ? I would be interested to know the anwer to this one.
:wa:

[Dagless]

From what is written, Al-Dalal clearly preferred men.[3] Specifically it is written that though "Al-Dalal enjoyed women's social company any sexual demand made of her was in vain". Al-Dalal is said to have had a sexual encounter with a woman on her wedding night. Al-Dalal then later that same night had sexual relations with the groom.[3]

May I be the first to say...

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[Tyrion]

^Haha, remember... It was wiki. :p

[3rddec]

As a Christian I have been thinking of this issue and how it is dealt with in my tradition. It aslo causes a great deal of suffering to those who in faith ask why would God create people with innate homosexual leanings. But then the same could be asked as to why God would allow someone to be born with no arms etc.

One thing is sure though , the more Educated christian position is that God does not hate a Homosexual but only any attempt to indulge in homosexual activity. As a christian we do believe that there are spiritual lessons to be learnt through suffering possably even the most important. So Homosexual people have a particular type of suffering ( I dont envy them ) but they can develope spiritually by dealing with it in a proper way. Maybe it forces them to explore the nature of love and learn of true spiritual love by avoiding the physical. I can't know but no one can go through life without some form of suffering.

Trying to force some gender reallingment seems a pointless exercise and may even be contrary to Gods plan for the individuals spiritual developement.
It will be interesting to hear a Muslim perspective on the issue. I hope I have given you some ideas to ponder. Its nice for me to be discussing something in the forum thats not just a debate but an exploration of our human suffering.

Love and Respect

[جوري]

I hope I have given you some ideas to ponder.

actually all you've done was waste perfectly good web space on drivel in a section dedicated to clarifications about Islam.. not how to make Christianity fit the changing tides .. which is quite novel considering the days they've burnt scientists at the stake for common sense that is apparently lost to a religion of utter lack of sense!

all the best

[3rddec]

As always Vale continues to show the mercifull and tolerent aspects of Muslims that all my muslim friends assure me exists.

I will show all my friends the posts and they will of course be full of admiration for one so learned to show such humility and compassion and what an example of a true Muslim she is.

Love and Respect

[Tyrion]

As always Vale continues to show the mercifull and tolerent aspects of Muslims that all my muslim friends assure me exists.

I will show all my friends the posts and they will of course be full of admiration for one so learned to show such humility and compassion and what an example of a true Muslim she is.

Love and Respect

You know, she had a point though. :p This thread has pretty much nothing to do with what you wrote...

If we could keep to the topic (and actually try to answer it) that would be nice.

[3rddec]

lol if you only knew how close I could have been to look much more openly to Islam if it could show some humanity in dealing with homosexuals and show some rationale in why God would create individuals with this cross. I had even asked a Muslim friend who clearly though that I was a possable convert to find something in Islam that answered my question. After I went home I was actually a little fearfull he would because if he did at the time I would have have to seriously review Islam, he didn't Vale would have been proud of him though. But in the end I was led by the spirit to the what appears correct and in keeping with a Just, Mercifull and wise God. I was in a vulnerable place in my faith that could have opened a door for Islam but God not only provided me with an answer but also showed me how far Islam as preached here is from the answer given to me. By the way i am not gay or ever likely to be lol but my human compassion for these people was struck hard by their treatment in Uganda and I needed answers. I also reached an incredable crises in the Trinity as for a while both arguements were finely balanced so I prayed hard for an answer and then opened my bible and after weeks of exploration of the whole topic God tells me to stop tearing myself up as he led me right to this passage when i opened the Bible randomly and cast my eye randomly to a verse I get

" I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know. " Job 42 verse 3

I know its not quite what your thread was about but just thought I'd tell you anyway.

Love and Respect

[جوري]

lol if you only knew how close I could have been to look much more openly to Islam if it could show some humanity in dealing with homosexuals and show some rationale in why God would create individuals with this cross. I had even asked a Muslim friend who clearly though that I was a possable convert to find something in Islam that answered my question. After I went home I was actually a little fearfull he would because if he did at the time I would have have to seriously review Islam, he didn't Vale would have been proud of him though. But in the end I was led by the spirit to the what appears correct and in keeping with a Just, Mercifull and wise God. I was in a vulnerable place in my faith that could have opened a door for Islam but God not only provided me with an answer but also showed me how far Islam as preached here is from the answer given to me. By the way i am not gay or ever likely to be lol but my human compassion for these people was struck hard by their treatment in Uganda and I needed answers. I also reached an incredable crises in the Trinity as for a while both arguements were finely balanced so I prayed hard for an answer and then opened my bible and after weeks of exploration of the whole topic God tells me to stop tearing myself up as he led me right to this passage when i opened the Bible randomly and cast my eye randomly to a verse I get

" I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know. " Job 42 verse 3

I know its not quite what your thread was about but just thought I'd tell you anyway.

Love and Respect

All I can say is thank God you're not a Muslim.. we don't need fickles in this ummah.. it isn't a quantitative issue but a qualitative one, as we're already too numerous and many are heedless. Christianity is a comfortable religion of make beliefs and fulfillment of base desires and I definitely think that is what you're suited for.. We don't exchange tenets and ideals for lousy conversions--each soul is held by its own intent and deeds.. I think that is a christian tactic as my family has seen first hand in Africa where food and medicine are exchanged for conversions,.. what a shame.. truly a shame!

all the best

[Aprender]

lol if you only knew how close I could have been to look much more openly to Islam if it could show some humanity in dealing with homosexuals and show some rationale in why God would create individuals with this cross. I had even asked a Muslim friend who clearly though that I was a possable convert to find something in Islam that answered my question. After I went home I was actually a little fearfull he would because if he did at the time I would have have to seriously review Islam, he didn't Vale would have been proud of him though. But in the end I was led by the spirit to the what appears correct and in keeping with a Just, Mercifull and wise God. I was in a vulnerable place in my faith that could have opened a door for Islam but God not only provided me with an answer but also showed me how far Islam as preached here is from the answer given to me. By the way i am not gay or ever likely to be lol but my human compassion for these people was struck hard by their treatment in Uganda and I needed answers. I also reached an incredable crises in the Trinity as for a while both arguements were finely balanced so I prayed hard for an answer and then opened my bible and after weeks of exploration of the whole topic God tells me to stop tearing myself up as he led me right to this passage when i opened the Bible randomly and cast my eye randomly to a verse I get

" I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know. " Job 42 verse 3

I know its not quite what your thread was about but just thought I'd tell you anyway.

Love and Respect

So you'd rather just ignore what doesn't make sense to you and just remain Christian? Whatever floats your boat. Doesn't sound like a sustainable way to faith though. :hmm: And what's even more sad is that you'd turn your back to another faith just because of the way another has treated you. That's more silly than people who stopped following a religion because someone else who claimed to be apart of the religion did something bad.

We wouldn't have any Democrats left in this country if all Democrats stopped being so because of what Bill Clinton did with Monica Lewinsky.

[Dagless]

lol if you only knew how close I could have been to look much more openly to Islam if it could show some humanity in dealing with homosexuals and show some rationale in why God would create individuals with this cross.

What is the rationale for most things? Isn't life full of trials? Why are people born with diseases? Why do we all die at different ages?

I had even asked a Muslim friend who clearly though that I was a possable convert to find something in Islam that answered my question. After I went home I was actually a little fearfull he would because if he did at the time I would have have to seriously review Islam, he didn't Vale would have been proud of him though. But in the end I was led by the spirit to the what appears correct and in keeping with a Just, Mercifull and wise God.

Huh? Don't the majority of Christians view homosexual acts as a sin too??

I was in a vulnerable place in my faith that could have opened a door for Islam but God not only provided me with an answer but also showed me how far Islam as preached here is from the answer given to me. By the way i am not gay or ever likely to be lol but my human compassion for these people was struck hard by their treatment in Uganda and I needed answers. I also reached an incredable crises in the Trinity as for a while both arguements were finely balanced so I prayed hard for an answer and then opened my bible and after weeks of exploration of the whole topic God tells me to stop tearing myself up as he led me right to this passage when i opened the Bible randomly and cast my eye randomly to a verse I get

" I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know. " Job 42 verse 3

I know its not quite what your thread was about but just thought I'd tell you anyway.

Love and Respect

After all that; THAT is what settled your rationale? :S Aren't going through trials and trusting in God EXACTLY what Islam says too?!!

Oh and this thread isn't even about homosexuality.

[Hamza Asadullah]

lol if you only knew how close I could have been to look much more openly to Islam if it could show some humanity in dealing with homosexuals and show some rationale in why God would create individuals with this cross. I had even asked a Muslim friend who clearly though that I was a possable convert to find something in Islam that answered my question. After I went home I was actually a little fearfull he would because if he did at the time I would have have to seriously review Islam, he didn't Vale would have been proud of him though. But in the end I was led by the spirit to the what appears correct and in keeping with a Just, Mercifull and wise God. I was in a vulnerable place in my faith that could have opened a door for Islam but God not only provided me with an answer but also showed me how far Islam as preached here is from the answer given to me. By the way i am not gay or ever likely to be lol but my human compassion for these people was struck hard by their treatment in Uganda and I needed answers. I also reached an incredable crises in the Trinity as for a while both arguements were finely balanced so I prayed hard for an answer and then opened my bible and after weeks of exploration of the whole topic God tells me to stop tearing myself up as he led me right to this passage when i opened the Bible randomly and cast my eye randomly to a verse I get

" I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know. " Job 42 verse 3

I know its not quite what your thread was about but just thought I'd tell you anyway.

Love and Respect

Greetings. One of the main reasons why countless Christians leave Christianity to come to Islam is because they just cannot understand and reconcile an absurd dogma such as the trinity. It was not God who told you to stop tearing up yourself but it was your worst enemy satan. He does not want you to find the truth because he knows you will destroy yourself by remaining where you are. You have every reason in your mind to disregard such an absurd dogma which is not even backed up by your scriptures.

Surely you should use your intellect and realise that the trinity is nothing but a created dogma which has nothing at all to do with Christianity or the Bible but was created several hundred years after Christ due to heavy influence from greek mythology which was very popular at the time.

Clearly this absurd concept actually contradicts the message of Christ and therefore should be totally rejected and disregarded. Do not give in to the devil your sworn enemy and think that you can just put it at the back of your mind. Nay you will NEVER be in peace knowing that thr trinity does NOT make sense and it is NOT supported by your scriptures as well as the fact that it goes against the very message of Christ.

Surely your heart will only be at peace once it has found the truth so look into Islam properly for yourself and you will gain clarity in all matters and all questions that you have ever had whereas if you stay with the faith you have right now you will only ever have more and more questions.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Let us see what Christianity says regarding homosexuality:

"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 20:13)"

"IF A MAN has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 20:15)"

"IF A WOMAN approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 20:16)"

Notice in the above two verses that the man has to get caught having sex with an animal in order for him to be put to death, while the woman does not necessarily have to get caught having sex with an animal. If she only looks suspicious then she would still be put to death, while the man has to be caught doing it.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Anyway going back to the topic. Mukhannathun in arabic means-"effeminate ones", "men who resemble women", singular mukhannath) is classical Arabic for people we would now call transgendered, or male-to-female transsexuals. Various "mukhannathun" appear in several hadith. In one hadith the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) protects a mukhannath from an unruly mob. It can be said that they were and are Muslim transsexuals accepted as they are "within the boundaries of Medina and Makkah". Outside of the religious text they are strongly associated with music and entertainment.

Reports of Mukhannathun from the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah

There are many references to these people both direct and indirect in the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. In the Qur'an:

The Quran Sura 24 verse 31 (as translated by Shakir): And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Two reliable hadith are:

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41, Number 4910: Narrated Abu Hurayrah (RA): A mukhannath who had dyed his hands and feet with henna was brought to the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam). He asked: What is the matter with this man? He was told: Apostle of Allah! he affects women's get-up. So he ordered regarding him and he was banished to an-Naqi'. The people said: Apostle of Allah! should we not kill him? He said: I have been prohibited from killing people who pray. Abu Usamah said: Naqi' is a region near Medina and not a Baqi (in other words not referring to Jannat al-Baqi cemetery. Indicating they were not punished.)'

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 32, Number 4095: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

A mukhannath (eunuch) used to enter upon the wives of Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam). They (the people) counted him among those who were free of physical needs. One day the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) entered upon us when he was with one of his wives, and was describing the qualities of a woman, saying: When she comes forward, she comes forward with four (folds in her stomach), and when she goes backward, she goes backward with eight (folds in her stomach). The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said: Do I not see that this (man) knows what here lies. Then they (the wives) observed veil from him.

According to the Scholar and hadith collector An-Nawawi (RA):

A mukhannath is the one ("male") who carries in his movements, in his appearance and in his language the characteristics of a woman. There are two types; the first is the one in whom these characteristics are innate, he did not put them on by himself, and therein is no guilt, no blame and no shame, as long as he does not perform any (illicit) act or exploit it for money (prostitution etc.). The second type acts like a woman out of immoral purposes and he is the sinner and blameworthy.

Furthermore there is the observation of Ibn Abd Al-Barr who was a contemporary of An-Nawawi:

The mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is (also?) the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women. "

The Mukhannathun were given a high status in the times of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) as being "guardians of sacred boundaries" even gave them the privilege to guard not only the "harem" of women, but also the most sacred "harem" in Makkah and the one in Madinah. From the 12th century on it is reported that they were the dignified guardians of the grave of the noble Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam), a custom that held on until the end of the Ottoman rule over the two sacred cities.

Sadly the high place given to the mukhannathun in Muslim society did not survive the colonial times. It was the beloved Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) who first gave such a high position of authority to the Mukhannathun but when Ottoman rule ended then that is when Islams rule ended.

When the kufaar regimes moved in the high position of the Mukhannathun was over. So it is Islam which gave the Mukhannathun such a high position. Afterwards ignorance spread and unfortunatley we are in a state of ignorance today about many issues and matters.

May Allah open our eyes and make us the best towards others. Ameen

And Allah knows best in all matters

[Aprender]

I didn't ignore something that didnt make sence but I could see sense in either position but clearly couldn't use logic to decide because when you take a completely open position to the problem of Trinity it finally has to be a faith decision and the message I was getting was stop worrying about it, your fine. Also as far as the Christian position on Homosexuality I explored in depth the teaching in the Church and realised the answer was there but as often the true teaching doest reach the masses but again in prayer I was led to a proper understanding. So how could I change or even consider changing when I was being spiritually fed with trully following my own faith as a revert Catholic.

I see Aprender you are a christian? If Christ can reach this sinner he can reach for you to, you just need to make the first move and reach out your hand.

LOve and Respect

You really have some nerve coming to me on a message board making baseless claims about my faith which were not apart of the discussion at hand. I'm doing just fine thank you very much. :p Didn't your mother ever teach you to hold your tongue if you don't know what you're talking about?

Based on what you wrote above, it just seemed so silly to me that you would throw Islam out the door because someone else said something you didn't like. It just shows me how fickle your faith is if that's truly the way you approach it. I think you're the one who needs to make the first move and re-evaluate how you approach people on this message board and your own faith in general. If you want to be a revert Catholic, then that's fine and dandy but I can't understand why you would make assumptions about an entire religion based on statements you didn't like that someone else made. I'm sorry if I offended you in some way, that was not my intention, but further elaboration in your post above to help me understand your conclusions would have sufficed instead of trying to attack my salvation. It's really unfortunate and sad that a man of faith such as yourself would deliver such low blows. Whatever happened to being a gentleman?

And it's silly that you write "Love and Respect" at the end of each of your posts when they're far from loving or respectful. Take a note from brother Eric H here on the message board. You can make a point without being malicious and condescending toward others--especially not toward a sister of your own faith. I was almost hurt by your words but then I had to remember to smile as you know not what you do. I forgive you.

[جوري]

how does forgiveness and loving reconcile with hell.. or does christianity not believe in hell of late?

[Ramadhan]

how does forgiveness and loving reconcile with hell.. or does christianity not believe in hell of late?

It does seem to me that with the advent of "love", chirstianity in the 21st century does seem to have abandoned the idea of hell as expressed in the bible.
Christians dont want people to see that God is "terrible" and not "loving" because He condemned people to hell, so christians of late invented hell as merely estrangement from God.

Hey, if they could change and twist the real words of God to suit their whims and desires, surely the can change everything else too.