Islam Needs to "Reform"

[MesMorial]

Salaam;

I am new to the forum but I have a specific focus. I would be classified as a "Qur'an-Alone" Muslim and now before asking me any questions such as how to perform salaat etc. please visit my main page by Googling “Mesmorial Youtube” (taking you to my Youtube page) and then clicking on the second link under my picture called “A Qur'an-Alone Commentary (of the Qur'an):”.

(After all I cannot post links here yet.)

There is an article detailing the 5 pillars as described in the Qur'an as well as one dedicated to salaat. You will also notice a commentary of the first 21 Sura (it is work in progress but covers over half of the Qur'an) examining the meaning of each verse relevant to the argument of "Qur'an-Alone" and "Qur'an + Ahadith". The annotation of the first 9 Sura covers all arguments used in support of the ahadith.

However, the point of this post is to encourage all Muslims to firstly ask themselves: Is Islam an aggressive religion, or a system that takes a stance against immorality, injustice and aggression (in all their forms)? Those who can answer this will do so because they are familiar with the content of the Qur'an, and not simply with the Qur'an as "the Qur'an". Some non-Muslims (following the example of some Muslims) attempt to use the Qur'an to justify aggression and hatred in the name of Islam. The articles “Does Islam Intend to Conquer the World” (please read part II also) and “Explaining the Explanation” are responses to discussions with non-Muslims who attempted to prove that Islam was by default at war with non-Muslims.

Having read and assessed these so that my attitude to ahadith is clear (focus on the second), I would invite everyone to read (especially) “Picking Up the Pieces”.

(Any objections to "Qur'an-alone" ideas should come from the Qur'an itself in which case please look up the relevant Sura and verse commentary to find the reply. I have read Bassam Zawadi's "rebuttals" page and critiques against it (the "Qur'an-Alone" view), but I would not be here if such arguments were not already covered. People (e.g. some Sunnis!) claim that their interpretation of Islam is the only correct one, but for such people their religion is simply not enough. They put their opinion above Allah (SWT) and are not real Muslims.

In the meantime, I have no personal prejudice against the following of ahadith (except a few) although I disagree strongly that they should be elevated to "Divine Revelation". They are simply examples some of which are fabricated and some of which are useless or unsavoury (though I think there is more good than bad). My opinion can be summed up by suggesting that they should be accepted according to their relevancy and cohesion with the Qur'an (e.g. there is no "real" reason to reject the traditional prayer aside from when it contradicts a small detail in the Qur'an (tone of voice)). It is just common sense and would result in retaining the ahadith whilst not letting them divert us from the Qur'an. After all, there is only one Qur'an:


"Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him)."

Qur'an 6:19


Examples of notes in the commentary:

The Qur’an is the truth (2:40-42, 2:91, 2:119, 2:147, 2:176, 5:48, 16:102). See 10:32-33 and the notes. The Qur’an is the sole guidance (2:63, 2:91, 2:176, 6:19, 6:114-115, 6:157, 7:144-147, 7:169-171, 12:111, 18:27, 21:45, 39:23, 45:6 etc.)


“Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.”

Qur’an 17:9


Yet more guidance is required?


The main point that I am making is in the article "Picking Up the Pieces" since it outlines what I see as the problem with Islam. It is easy to lose site of the crux of the Message and become overly concerned with "order" and "method". Islam should be a vehicle of Good in the world, but to do this it must be united. It can never be united until all Muslims adopt an open attitude to every Muslim and non-Muslim alike (my attitude to "Bassam Zawadi" is open to be challenged with a good basis). The ahadith problem is not just about "authenticity", but also "authority" and "context". It does not matter (to me) as long as people are nice to each other and do not compel to their way using their own "definitions", but of course I must offer my ideas.


Khuda Hafiz

[Ghazalah]

Quranist need a reform :D

We'v already had one of you people come and spread his false accusations here http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...han-quran.html

I don't see the point in having the same discussion again.

[MesMorial]

I will read that (the winner is always who is more organised). Your use of the emotes remind me of simple Islamophobes.

Peace.

[Ghazalah]

Your use of the emotes remind me of simple Islamophobes.

Shame. Better get used to it, for however long you stick around for. :D

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[MesMorial]

I read the link. It is not the same discussion. You are unfamiliar with my viewpoint which is why I told you to read things first. Please read and respond if your intelligence matches your ego.

[Ghazalah]

I read the link. It is not the same discussion. You are unfamiliar with my viewpoint which is why I told you to read things first. Please read and respond if your intelligence matches your ego

You're quite lippy aren't you, tsk tsk.

If you had read it and understood it properly, you would have noticed you're friend is dishing out the same false accusations as you. Refuting Hadith and stating Islam doesn't need Hadith.

[جوري]

(Any objections to "Qur'an-alone" ideas should come from the Qur'an itself in which case please look up the relevant Sura and verse commentary to find the reply.

Ok:

(1) And who believe in (the Qur'an and the sunnah ) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and in that which was sent down before you [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #4)

(2) Thus We have made you [true Muslims - real believers of Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and his sunnah (legal ways)], a just (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind and the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) be a witness over you. And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger). Indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allah guided. And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem). Truly, Allah is full of Kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #143)

(3) Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you), We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Qur'an) and purifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Qur'an) and the Hikmah (i.e. sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #151)

(4) And when you have divorced women and they have fulfilled the term of their prescribed period, either take them back on reasonable basis or set them free on reasonable basis. But do not take them back to hurt them, and whoever does that, then he has wronged himself. And treat not the Verses (Laws) of Allah as a jest, but remember Allah's Favours on you (i.e. Islam), and that which He has sent down to you of the Book (i.e. the Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah (the Prophet's sunnah - legal ways - Islamic jurisprudence.) whereby He instructs you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is All-Aware of everything.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #231)

(5) Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #31)

(7) You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and his sunnah] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah . And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #110)

(8) Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Qur'an), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah [the wisdom and the sunnah of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم (i.e. his legal ways, statements, acts of worship)], while before that they had been in manifest error.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #164)


(10) Had not the Grace of Allah and His Mercy been upon you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), a party of them would certainly have made a decision to mislead you, but (in fact) they mislead none except their own selves, and no harm can they do to you in the least. Allah has sent down to you the Book (The Qur'an), and Al-Hikmah (Islamic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophet's sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not. And Ever Great is the Grace of Allah unto you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #113)

(11) [Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) to these idolaters (pagan Arabs) of your folk:] Follow what has been sent down unto you from your Lord (the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad's sunnah), and follow not any Auliya' (protectors and helpers who order you to associate partners in worship with Allah), besides Him (Allah). Little do you remember!
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #3)

(12) Verily, Allah enjoins Al-'Adl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but Allah Alone - Islamic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsan [i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allah, totally for Allah's sake and in accordance with the sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in a perfect manner], and giving (help) to kith and kin (i.e. all that Allah has ordered you to give them e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help), and forbids Al-Fahsha' (i.e all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right), and Al-Munkar (i.e all that is prohibited by Islamic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression). He admonishes you, that you may take heed.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #90)

(14) Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "I warn you only by the revelation (from Allah and not by the opinion of the religious scholars and others). But the deaf (who follow the religious scholars and others blindly) will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned [i.e. one should follow only the Qur'an and the sunnah (legal ways, orders, acts of worship, and the statements of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, as the companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did)] .
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #45)

(15) Verily, in this (the Qur'an) there is a plain Message for people who worship Allah (i.e. the true, real believers of Islamic Monotheism who act practically on the Qur'an and the sunnah - legal ways of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم).
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #106)

(16) Truly, Allah will admit those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds (according to the Qur'an and the sunnah) to Gardens underneath which rivers flow (in Paradise). Verily, Allah does what He wills.
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #14)


(17) Make not the calling of the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among you as your calling one of another. Allah knows those of you who slip away under shelter (of some excuse without taking the permission to leave, from the Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم). And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) commandment (i.e. his sunnah - legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant) should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #63)

(18) And whosoever submits his face (himself) to Allah, while he is a Muhsin (good-doer i.e. performs good deeds totally for Allah's sake without any show off or to gain praise or fame and does them in accordance with the sunnah of Allah's Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold [La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)]. And to Allah return all matters for decision.
( سورة لقمان , Luqman, Chapter #31, Verse #22)

(19) And remember (O you the members of the Prophet's family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allah and Al-Hikmah (i.e. Prophet's sunnah - legal ways, so give your thanks to Allah and glorify His Praises for this Qur'an and the sunnah ). Verily, Allah is Ever Most Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things.
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #34)

(20) And as one who invites to Allah [Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)] by His Leave, and as a lamp spreading light (through your instructions from the Qur'an and the sunnah - the legal ways of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ).
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #46)

(22) And during a part of the night (also) glorify His praises (i.e. Maghrib and 'Isha prayers) and (so likewise) after the prayers [As-sunnah, Nawafil - optional and additional prayers. And also glorify, praise and magnify Allah - Subhan Allah, Alhamdu lillah, Allahu-Akbar].
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #40)

(23) He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Qur'an, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-Hikmah (As-sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم). And verily, they had been before in manifest error;
( سورة الجمعة , Al-Jumua, Chapter #62, Verse #2)

[جوري]

addendum to above:

"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7)

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you; and if you differ in anything among yourselves, then refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most suitable for final determination." 4:59

Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. 3:32

And obey Allah and the Messenger; that you may obtain mercy. 3:132

Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement. But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment. 4:13-14

How serious is this command? It is the most serious. Think about the one act that we can not stop doing -- whether the phone rings, your mom calls or anything short of a threat occurs. It is salat. When we begin salat, we should not stop unless there is a dire emergency. Yet, we have an example which shows that the call of the Prophet is and was more important than completing the salat.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Mualla: While I was praying, the Prophet passed by and called me, but I did not go to him till I had finished my prayer. When I went to him, he said, "What prevented you from coming?" I said, "I was praying." He said, "Didn't Allah say"O you who believes Give your response to Allah (by obeying Him) and to His Apostle." (8.24)... Sahih Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 226.





And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they! 4:69

"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger in order that he may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, 'We hear and we obey'. It is such as these who will attain success." (Surah Al-Nur 24:51)

"But no, by your Lord! (O Muhammad) They cannot be believers until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest submission." (Surah Al-Nisa' 4:65)

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if you turn back, know that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner. 5:92


They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if you believe." 8:1

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). 8:20

O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered. 8:24

"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7)

"You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah." (33:21)

"He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah." (4:80)





again, leaves me wondering if you've read the same Quran as the rest of us? hmmmmmmmmmn

[MesMorial]

Ghazalah

If you read it properly please notice that I am talking about Islam, the Qur'an and the attitude to ahadith. I am not talking about Bukhari. If you call me lippy then I challenge you to a one on one public debate where you can flaunt yourself some more. If not then I suggest you look in the mirror since you will find more than what you see and yet less than what you think.

Ghazalah

If you read it properly please notice that I am talking about Islam, the Qur'an and the attitude to ahadith. I am not talking about Bukhari. If you call me lippy then I challenge you to a one on one public debate where you can flaunt yourself some more. If not then I suggest you look in the mirror since you will find more than what you see and yet less than what you think.

Lily

I am sorry that is a false rendition. The only times that "Hadith" and "Sunna" are mentioned in the Qur'an is as follows:




“Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients (and their sunna (sunnatu)) has already passed.”

Qur’an 8:38


“They do not believe in it, and indeed the way (sunnatu) of the former people has already passed.”

Qur’an 15:13


“(This is our) sunnata with regard to those of Our messengers whom We sent before you, and you shall not find a change in Our course (lisunnatina).”

Qur’an 17:77


“And nothing prevents men from believing when the guidance comes to them, and from asking forgiveness of their Lord, except that what happened (sunnatu) to the ancients should overtake them, or that the chastisement should come face to face with them.”

Qur’an 18:55


“There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the sunna of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute.”

Qur’an 33:38


“(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the sunna of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the sunna of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.”

Qur’an 35:43


“But their belief was not going to profit them when they had seen Our punishment; (this is) Allah's sunna, which has indeed obtained in the matter of His servants, and there the unbelievers are lost.”

Qur’an 40:85


“Such has been the sunna of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's sunna.”

Qur’an 48:23


Peace.

[MesMorial]

Apologies I noticed that the "at" symbol is classed as a link. That is why the last post appears confused. Here is the post:


<i>Hadith</i>


“Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; what hadith would they then believe in after this?”

Qur’an 7:185


“In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a hadith which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.”

Qur’an 12:111


“And of men is he who takes instead frivolous ahadith to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement.”

Qur’an 31:6


“O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking a hadith; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.”

Qur’an 33:53


“Allah has revealed the best hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.”

Qur’an 39:23


“These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His communications?”

Qur’an 45:6


“Then let them bring a hadith like it if they are truthful.”

Qur’an 52:34


“Do you then hold this hadith in contempt?”

Qur’an 56:81


“So leave Me and him who rejects this hadith; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not.”

Qur’an 68:44


“In what hadith, then, after it, will they believe?”

Qur’an 77:50


“Has not there come to you the hadtih of Musa?”

Qur’an 79:15



<i>Sunna</i>


“Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients (and their sunna (sunnatu)) has already passed.”

Qur’an 8:38


“They do not believe in it, and indeed the way (sunnatu) of the former people has already passed.”

Qur’an 15:13


“(This is our) sunnata with regard to those of Our messengers whom We sent before you, and you shall not find a change in Our course (lisunnatina).”

Qur’an 17:77


“And nothing prevents men from believing when the guidance comes to them, and from asking forgiveness of their Lord, except that what happened (sunnatu) to the ancients should overtake them, or that the chastisement should come face to face with them.”

Qur’an 18:55


“There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the sunna of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute.”

Qur’an 33:38


“(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the sunna of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the sunna of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.”

Qur’an 35:43


“But their belief was not going to profit them when they had seen Our punishment; (this is) Allah's sunna, which has indeed obtained in the matter of His servants, and there the unbelievers are lost.”

Qur’an 40:85


“Such has been the sunna of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's sunna.”

Qur’an 48:23




8:38 Qul lillatheena kafaroo in yantahooyughfar lahum ma qad salafa wa-in yaAAoodoo faqad madatsunnatu al-awwaleena


15:13 La yu/minoona bihi waqad khalatsunnatu al-awwaleena


17:77 Sunnata man qad arsalna qablaka minrusulina wala tajidu lisunnatina tahweelan


18:55 Wama manaAAa alnnasa anyu/minoo ith jaahumu alhuda wayastaghfiroorabbahum illa an ta/tiyahum sunnatu al-awwaleena awya/tiyahumu alAAathabu qubulan


33:38 Ma kana AAala alnnabiyyimin harajin feema farada Allahu lahusunnata Allahi fee allatheena khalaw min qablu wakanaamru Allahi qadaran maqdooran33:62; 33:62 Sunnata Allahi fee allatheenakhalaw min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan


35:43 Istikbaran fee al-ardi wamakraalssayyi-i wala yaheequ almakru alssayyi-oilla bi-ahlihi fahal yanthuroona illasunnata al-awwaleena falan tajida lisunnati Allahitabdeelan walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tahweelan


40:85 Falam yaku yanfaAAuhum eemanuhum lammaraaw ba/sana sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat feeAAibadihi wakhasira hunalika alkafiroona


48:23 Sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat minqablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan



"Sunna al-awwaleena" is the "way of the former people" and Sunnata Allah is the "Way of God"

[MesMorial]

Thus far Sunnism is un-Islamic.

[جوري]

Lily I am sorry that is a false rendition. The only times that "Hadith" and "Sunna" are mentioned in the Qur'an is as follows:

The false rendition is yours actually.. the verses are there for all to see. Islam can only be practiced by following the Quran and Sunnah, "So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7) if you know of another way, then you're not Muslim. It is as simple as that!

all the best

[Ramadhan]

Thus far Sunnism is un-Islamic.

And you've just called more than a billion muslims kaaffir.

May Allah SWT and everyone who read this be witness for your claim during the day of the judgement. Amiin.

[Tyrion]

Thus far Sunnism is un-Islamic.

Ha... Did you really just call over 90% of all Muslims (Well, closer to 100% since I think Shia's should be included), "un-Islamic"? So in other words, you're saying that YOU are Muslim, and close to 2 billion people who claim to be Muslim are not... Imams Hanifah, Shafi, Malik, and Hanbal were wrong... All our scholars are wrong... The Companions (who used the Prophet's example) are wrong... 1400 years of scholarship is completely wrong... And it's just you, and your tiny club of Quran only people, who are right? You have no scholarly backing whatsoever, and yet you still have the audacity to come here, tell us we're all wrong, and then give us your own tafsir of the Quran (well, and a tafsir of the English translation anyway...) when you're not even close to being qualified? Really?

I can't believe the ego on this guy. :p

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

These people don't deserve the time to get a reply because:

1) They are a fringe, they will never penetrate the framework of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul al-Fiqh).
2) They are ignorant of the language of the Qur'an - sarf, nahw, balagha and how the Qur'an operates.
3) Their hearts are diseased.
4) They are hypocrites, they are simply repeating what the hypocrites said in Madinah at the time of the Prophet (saw) to his face. They are doing exactly what the hypocrites in Madinah did by taking the Qur'an and ignoring the Messenger (saw). Allaah has already talked about them in the Qur'an. Read below:

وإذا قيل لهم لا تفسدوا في الأرض قالوا إنما نحن مصلحون ألا إنهم هم المفسدون ولكن لا يشعرون وإذا قيل لهم آمنوا كما آمن الناس قالوا أنؤمن كما آمن السفهاء ألا إنهم هم السفهاء ولكن لا يعلمون

[And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not. And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.] 2:11-13

Now go and read his first post, his thread title and argument. See the correlation?

We seek refuge in Allaah from such clear misguidance.

[جوري]

These people don't deserve the time to get a reply because:

That is indeed true.. but I really couldn't help myself when he wrote he wants proof from the Quran.. It is as if they've never opened the book and frankly it took me less than 40 seconds..

:w:

[Aprender]

This is what is going to get Islam in deep trouble when you have people like this coming in and trying to change everything. It already ripped Christianity apart with our protestant reformation and now you want to mess Islam up too? Look at where reform got Christianity. Divided and billions of people confused about what is right and what isn't because everyone thinks they're right.

Please note that I haven't yet read your thoughts as I am not well versed yet in the intricacies of Islam but I am learning. I am not a Muslim but I am studying the religion. While I commend you for trying to make sure it's important that Muslims continue to read and memorize and live by the Koran, I think it's dangerous to try and disregard the Sunnah and Hadith as nothing. They're not the words of the one true God but I think they are helpful to keeping Muslims on track. Why would you want to change it and call Sunnis misguided? That's not helpful. That's not love. It's just a way to create trouble and turn non-Muslims away from Islam. One of the reasons why people leave Christianity is because they see Islam as more unified but when you start to chisel cracks into it like this, the base of it will falter and crumble into a thousand pieces. Is that what you want?

[MesMorial]

There are still replies to the other Qur’anic verses. Everyone here just needs to have the courage to read them. None of you seems to recognise that I am not trying to change everything. I said “thus far Sunnism is unIslamic”. Thus far according to the logic and according to the Qur’an. May Allah (SWT) be your witness.

Do you realise that if you follow just one false hadith, you are technically a hypocrite?


“And who is more unjust than one who forges a lie against Allah, or gives the lie to the truth when it has come to him? Will not in hell be the abode of the unbelievers?”

Qur’an 29:68


Reply to the distortion of al-Hasr 7 (I can of course finish them one by one):



“They ask you about the windfalls. Say: The windfalls are for Allah and the Messenger. So be careful of [your duty to] Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers.”

8:1


Since we know that the spoils are not all entirely for Muhammad (SAW) individually and that they are not all entirely for Allah (SWT) individually (8:41, 8:69), “Allah and the Messenger” cannot reasonably refer to Allah (SWT) represented by the Qur’an plus Muhammad (SAW) represented by “his sunna”. The ayat are stating that the victory was in the name of Allah SWT and that the disposal of windfalls is the privilege of Allah through His Messenger (i.e. the people should abide by the decision of “Allah and the Messenger”). Now just as in 9:1-3 (conceptually), we know that Allah (SWT) did not consult Muhammad (SAW) regarding the disposal of spoils. Therefore “Allah and the Messenger” refers to the will of Allah (SWT) as presented in the Qur’an. Muhammad (SAW) will implement the order by allowing and prohibiting the items according to the will of Allah (SWT) and hence circumstance (in this case they were weak) (8:41, 8:66). This verdict is shown in 8:41, consistent with 59:7 where the spoils are also to go to the orphans and the needy etc. (although people are still expected to spend benevolently (i.e. give charity) (8:3)):

“What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger [and taken away] from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not [merely] make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.”

59:7

As we see, the spoils are restored to the Messenger (by the decree of Allah (SWT)) so that he can distribute it according to the Will of Allah (SWT). For this reason we are ordered to take what he gives us and forsake what he withholds (according to Allah’s (SWT) criterion/verdict by which he decides (i.e. abides)). This is an example of the Messenger judging by the Qur’an (5:43-50). Community leaders are expected to do this too.


“Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust.”

8:22


Confirming that ayah 1 is a Qur’anic verdict.



Now you wonder why Islam is in such bad shape - it is because you are close-minded to anything outside of your club.

Peace.

[MesMorial]

Response to 4:59


“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.”

59


If Allah (SWT) is represented by the Qur’an and the Messenger by his interpretation of the Qur’an (ahadith), is Islam a religion authored by at least three different sources? However, after consulting those in authority we are instructed to refer disagreements to Allah and His Messenger. Thus, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger” must necessarily reference one source. For further information on ayat 59-65, see the notes for 2:124. See also 42:38 for an ayah involving community consultation. Also remember it was necessary for Allah (SWT) to specify “obey the Messenger” so that people would know how to obey Allah (SWT) (see 4:80 and notes). It is especially applicable since the Qur’an records Allah’s (SWT) mandate for His Messenger to pass on orders (e.g. beginning ayat with “Say:”). There were at the time more ayat to come, and thus people were instructed (to be ready) to obey them (confirmed by 16:1). See also the notes for 3:31-32. No-one at the time had a paperback Qur’an, thus of course it was necessary to follow Muhammad (SAW).

[جوري]

This is what is going to get Islam in deep trouble when you have people like this coming in and trying to change everything. It already ripped Christianity apart with our protestant reformation and now you want to mess Islam up too? Look at where reform got Christianity. Divided and billions of people confused about what is right and what isn't because everyone thinks they're right. Please note that I haven't yet read your thoughts as I am not well versed yet in the intricacies of Islam but I am learning. I am not a Muslim but I am studying the religion. While I commend you for trying to make sure it's important that Muslims continue to read and memorize and live by the Koran, I think it's dangerous to try and disregard the Sunnah and Hadith as nothing. They're not the words of the one true God but I think they are helpful to keeping Muslims on track. Why would you want to change it and call Sunnis misguided? That's not helpful. That's not love. It's just a way to create trouble and turn non-Muslims away from Islam. One of the reasons why people leave Christianity is because they see Islam as more unified but when you start to chisel cracks into it like this, the base of it will falter and crumble into a thousand pieces. Is that what you want?

Islam is so incredibly preserved thank God, and thereafter to the painstaking job of our early scholars and ultimately Allah swt gave a divine promise that it will be preserved. Thus any deviation that occurs isn't out of ignorance but deliberation especially that sectarianism is spoken so harshly of in the Quran itself.. and such people must be fought with logic and proper sources and I suspect that they don't understand what they're quoting because the answer is right before their eyes yet they choose their own renditions.. So I wouldn't worry about what kind of misguidance he'd cause as ultimately they only misguide themselves and the ignorant. Anyone interested in islam always does proper research and not go after some nameless heathens.

I have to tell you that there is already a hadith about these Quranites millenniums ago..
"I have been given the Qur'an and something similar to it besides it. Yet a time will come when a man leaning on his couch will say 'follow the Qur'an only; what you find in it permissible, take as permissible, and what you find as forbidden, take as forbidden'. But verily what the Messenger of Allaah Sall Allahu alaihi wa sallam has forbidden is like what Allaah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has forbidden".



So Anyone remotely studied in Islam would already know what to beware of but it is amazing that all the prophecies of the prophet PBUH are unfolding one by one.. which in many regards these people wouldn't know of because they reject Sunnah!

peace

[MesMorial]

Response to 3:31-32 (and others like it)


“Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.”

31-32


There is a distinction between “following Muhammad (SAW)” as a community leader and “obeying Allah and the Messenger”. Muhammad (SAW) is to be obeyed because he is a believer in what is being revealed and he judges by it (see notes for 2:124). Hence we are expected to follow suit. To “obey Allah and the Messenger” is to obey one source. See 8:20:

“O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.”

The phrase “while you hear” suggests that to obey Allah and His Messenger is to obey the Revelation. See 24:51:

“The response of the believers, when they are invited to Allah and His Messenger that he may judge between them, is only to say: We hear and we obey; and these it is that are the successful.”

If “Allah and His Messenger” means that Muhammad (SAW) is to judge between people, this judgement must certainly be based on the Qur’an since Allah (SWT) does not consult Muhammad (SAW) regarding decision-making. The first ayah of sura 9 declares that an ultimatum is issued from Allah (SWT) and His Messenger. We know that the verses about the ultimatum are entirely from Allah (SWT) because He does not consult Muhammad about the ultimatum. Muhammad’s (SAW) only mission was to deliver Allah’s (SWT) Message (16:35, 24:54). Thus, the reason that Allah (SWT) included the Messenger in 9:1 is because he participated as deliverer of the ultimatum. Similarly, because people received Allah’s (SWT) Message through Messengers, they were ordered to obey the Messengers. This is repeated in 9:3. We also know that the Qur’an is a permanent messenger (65:11), and that the Qur’an is a reminder and deliverer of good news (41:4, 11:2). What Muhammad (SAW) decides as a Messenger of religious teaching is what Allah (SWT) decides (33:36). See (notes for) 4:59 to sufficiently substantiate these claims.

Remember it was clearer at the time (amongst the people) for the Qur’an to say “Obey Allah and His Messenger” than to simply say “Obey Allah” or “Obey what Muhammad follows”. The first is confusing without needing to explain why, and the second is silly because Muhammad (SAW) was divulging the Qur’an and thus he might be following himself! It would be redundant to say “Obey what the Messenger follows” because the Message was being delivered by a person, and therefore we have to obey that person anyway (again he might be following himself). The Qur’an might have said “Obey the Message” but then luckily Muhammad (SAW) is instructed to do only that in 5:43-50 and many other places (e.g. 7:203, 10:15. The Qur’an is the sole guidance (2:63, 2:91, 2:176, 6:19, 6:114-115, 6:157, 7:144-147, 7:169-171, 12:111, 18:27, 21:45, 39:23, 45:6 etc.)). It is after all necessary to know exactly where that Message is coming from (saying “Messenger” instead of “Message” clarifies this). It is especially applicable since the Qur’an records Allah’s (SWT) mandate for His Messenger to pass on orders (e.g. beginning ayat with “Say:”). No-one at the time had a paperback Qur’an, thus of course it was necessary to follow Muhammad (SAW). Ayat such as 7:58 explain that the Qur’an repeats ayat to help us understand it.



Response to 4:13


“These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.”

13


The previous two ayat detail the rules of inheritance. Therefore 4:13 is re-emphasising the fact that to obey the Qur’anic injunctions is to obey the Messenger and hence Allah (SWT).



The hadith you quoted is ultimate shirk:


“Surely I am Allah, there is no god but I, therefore serve Me and keep up prayer for My remembrance.”

Qur’an 20:14


“Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are [all] for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;”

Qur’an 6:162


(You don’t even submit in your Shahada)

[MesMorial]

And so on it is not hard to expose your attitudes above all things. I might continue more later.

[MesMorial]

If your hadith about people on their courches is right, then bring the second Qur'an that you got it from and your witness (concerning prohibitions). My point is not to disprove you but to clean up your arrogance.

[جوري]

If your hadith about people on their courches is right, then bring the second Qur'an that you got it from and your witness (concerning prohibitions). My point is not to disprove you but to clean up your arrogance.

Dude.. you're so irrelevant that even if I had 'arrogance' I'd not be using it on you-- I frankly pity you, you're more apt at projecting your own inadequacies than offering a proper argument.

We've all seen the argument and the counter argument.. question is have you?

I'd start here:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln...QR=22394&dgn=4

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=4&Rec=4580

Why we have to follow the Sunnah from www.islam-qa.com

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...e&QR=604&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...&QR=3440&dgn=4

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/rejection.htm (analyses Surah 16:44)

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/record.htm (proving that Hadith were recorded during time of Prophet and companions time)

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solutio...perception.htm (he makes good points on why we need hadith around the middle of the article. He says that they are the same people who transmitted the Quran. He gives examples of so called contradictions in the hadith. He gives a beautiful argument from Surah 2:143)

Prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that came true from hadith. Thus proving that there are divine revelations sent down to Muhammad except the Quran:

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/hp.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.co...hecies_muh.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.co...f_the_hour.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/the_unseen.htm (this shows that Allah allows Prophets to prophesize about the future)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html (A hadith miracle)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html (early hadith manuscripts)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/muwatta.html (people argue that the early Muwatta manuscripts are not reliable, but this link refutes it)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/bukhari.html (defending the collection of hadith by Bukhari and Muslim)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/exisnad.html (shows the strengths of isnad for supporting hadith)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/narraulum.html (this link deals with people who argue that hadith have been inserted into Saheeh Bukhari after his death)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/Ulum/ (to know about the Tafsir of Quran)

http://www.albalagh.net/prophethood/...ejecters.shtml (very good article that refutes some of the arguments of hadith rejecters)

http://www.qss.org/articles/status.html (Sheikh Al Albany gives good arguments as to why some verses of the Quran needs Sunnah to explain them. Use his point on the thief. Take point number 2)

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=285 (what the early Muslims said about following the Sunnah)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/message_boa
rd_islam/read_post.cgi?file_name=654/42.txt (a list of scholars names who followed hadith before Bukhari)

http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_...?TID=3772&PN=1 (very good article, read his section on ‘The Proliferation of Chains’)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=1846&CATE=120 (fallacies of anti hadith arguments)

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...e&QR=604&dgn=4 (justification for following the sunnah)

http://www.livingislam.org/ps16_e.html (The Probativeness of the Sunna)

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/HadithProject2.htm (go to the subsection titled "RELIGIOUS PRACTICES ASSUMED IN THE QUR'AN BUT NOT INSTITUTED BY IT")



makes your petty psychoanalysis, and improper usage of the Quran, quite laughable!


all the best

[Dagless]

I did read the other thread too (not by you, but another username with the same beliefs). It was interesting up until the copying and pasting and ignoring of questions. I think it's a good thread to read if only for Muraad's explanation (which I think he should make a little longer for those of us who do not understand Arabic well).

Without getting into a deep lengthy debate; I still don't understand what you have against the sunnah. Nobody here has said they take the sunnah above the Quran (which it seems is your fear), so there would be no chance of going against God's word.

I also don't see how you can accept the Quran but nothing else. Essentially you're saying you trust this one part of what the prophet (pbuh) said but reject everything else. Worse still it implies the prophet (pbuh) did not live his life according to the law of Allah. Your view seems odd.

[جوري]

Now you wonder why Islam is in such bad shape - it is because you are close-minded to anything outside of your club. Peace.

Islam is in bad shape? despite efforts of deviants such as yourself and monumental western effort to turn Islam into the new communism. Islam is still fastest growing religion and soon to be the first largest!

Where have you been? but I suppose that is the kind of propagandist B.S what the negligible variety like to presume!

all the best

[Rabi Mansur]

This is what is going to get Islam in deep trouble when you have people like this coming in and trying to change everything. It already ripped Christianity apart with our protestant reformation and now you want to mess Islam up too? Look at where reform got Christianity. Divided and billions of people confused about what is right and what isn't because everyone thinks they're right.

Please note that I haven't yet read your thoughts as I am not well versed yet in the intricacies of Islam but I am learning. I am not a Muslim but I am studying the religion. While I commend you for trying to make sure it's important that Muslims continue to read and memorize and live by the Koran, I think it's dangerous to try and disregard the Sunnah and Hadith as nothing. They're not the words of the one true God but I think they are helpful to keeping Muslims on track. Why would you want to change it and call Sunnis misguided? That's not helpful. That's not love. It's just a way to create trouble and turn non-Muslims away from Islam. One of the reasons why people leave Christianity is because they see Islam as more unified but when you start to chisel cracks into it like this, the base of it will falter and crumble into a thousand pieces. Is that what you want?

Yes this is something that has amazed me. Although there is an obvious rift between the Sunni and Shia, there is still an amazing unity on the essentials of what it means to be Muslim. What especially amazes me in this regard is that there is NO POPE OR OTHER AUTHORITY FIGURE TO TELL MUSLIMS WHAT TO DO. In other religions, if there is unity there tends to be someone at the top who tells everyone how to follow the essentials of the faith. In Mormonism there is the "prophet," in Catholicism there is the Pope, in Jehovah's Witness they have a governing board, etc. Islam has no central figure telling everyone what to do. I find this fascinating that there can still be unity and pretty solid agreement on the essentials of the Ummah. I love it. :shade:
:wa:

[Ramadhan]

If your hadith about people on their courches is right, then bring the second Qur'an that you got it from and your witness (concerning prohibitions). My point is not to disprove you but to clean up your arrogance.

You keep claiming that close to 100% muslims treat ahadith as qur'an.

This alone shows how dishonest you are.

And on arrogance, I think you need a mirror, dude.

[MesMorial]

Why do people post links instead of looking at the Qur'an? Why do you accuse me of being arrogant since it was you who laughed at me out of your own fear despite my first post being polite. Also where did I say I reject all ahadith? They are examples and history, but it should be people's choice to follow what they wish as long as it does not mean they label/compel others. If you don't worship ahadith then why do you react so aggressively? Why do you fear that I am changing things if you don't worship ahadith?


Response to 4:80



“Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.”

80


See notes for 3:79. Muhammad (SAW) delivered Allah’s (SWT) Message and was ordered to judge only by the Qur’an ((5:43-50, 5:51-52)). We also know that what Muhammad (SAW) as a Messenger of religious law decided was what Allah (SWT) decided (33:36). This is a reminder to the people that Muhammad (SAW) is a Messenger, and since he is not acting of his own volition, he will obey Allah (SWT) and leave those who turn back to do so. See also notes for 4:59, 4:171-172 and 9:3. Besides, the surrounding ayat place this purely in the context of warfare.

[MesMorial]

In Mormonism there is the "prophet

Hmmm it reminds me of something. Sunnis tell everyone what to do.

[MesMorial]

Why do you claim that I claim that close to 100% of Muslims are idol-worshippers? The majority merely follow but do not actually follow their own interpretation (so are not really intending to do wrong).

After all, the Qur'an says that the majority of believers are idol-worshippers:


"And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others [with Him]."

Qur'an 12:106


They could not explain why you "have" to follow ahadith using the Qur'an but they need to flood with links. The commentary is 99% my own work and yet no-one can reply?

About ahadith prophecies:

Allah (SWT) alone is knower of the unseen. Muhammad (SAW) knows of the unseen only that which is disclosed to him (via Revelation) (7:188, 46:9). 72:26-28 states that Allah (SWT) does not reveal the unseen to anyone except to whom he chooses as Messenger. The unseen there is specified in 72:27 to be the Message (Qur’an).

Peace.

P.S. If you were not so arrogant you would be happier.

[Aprender]

Why do people post links instead of looking at the Qur'an? Why do you accuse me of being arrogant since it was you who laughed at me out of your own fear despite my first post being polite. Also where did I say I reject all ahadith? They are examples and history, but it should be people's choice to follow what they wish as long as it does not mean they label/compel others. If you don't worship ahadith then why do you react so aggressively? Why do you fear that I am changing things if you don't worship ahadith?

Right...^o) What you wrote was very hypocritical.

[MesMorial]

No, as I said the people here were rude first. I am merely responding.

***

5 Pillars from the Qur'an (thus eliminating need for most ahadith although some are ok examples of how to implement if we want)


SHAHADA



“When his (Abraham’s) Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.”

Qur’an 2:131


“Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.”

Qur’an 3:18


“But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.”

Qur’an 3:20


“And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.”

Qur’an 10:90


“Say: I am forbidden to serve those whom you call upon besides Allah when clear arguments have come to me from my Lord, and I am commanded that I should submit to the Lord of the worlds.”

Qur’an 40:66


Thus the Shahada is:

“There is no god but Allah; I submit to the Lord of the Universe.” It is interesting that despite “Islam” meaning “Submission” and “Muslim” meaning “Submitter”, the traditional Muslims do not submit in their declaration of faith. Is it me or is something wrong?



SALAAT



Please refer to my article “Salaat in the Qur’an Alone”.



ZAKAT



“They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder.”

Qur’an 2:219


Ideally, it would be a progressive tax system.



HAJJ



The where-and-when are clear in the Qur’an:


“Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka (Mecca), blessed and a guidance for the nations. In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah, [upon] every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the worlds.”

Qur’an 3:96-97


“And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do. It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque…”

Qur’an 48:24-25


“They ask you concerning the new moon. Say: They are times appointed for [the benefit of] men, and [for] the pilgrimage…”

Qur’an 2:189


Let us look for the “sacred months”. These months were well known (9:37) just as the months of the Hajj were well known (2:197):

Zul-Hijjah and Muharram (“pilgrimage” and “forbidden”) are obvious choices. The month preceding Zul-Hijjah (Zul-Qa’da) carries a name conveying “sitting” (i.e. not fighting). We know from the Qur’an that fighting was and still is forbidden in the sacred months, and furthermore people had to prepare for the Pilgrimage. Therefore this month is included. Finally, the isolated sacred month (Rajab) carries a name conveying “respect”. These sacred months are confirmed by history (and) the most “authentic” hadith, the Final Sermon. No other months carry names suggestive of their being sacred.

Other Qur’an alone Muslims differ. They say:


“The four sacred months are Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar and Rabi’ I (the 12th, 1st, 2nd and 3rd months). The name of the first is self-explanatory whilst Rabi’ is derived from the root word Araba (conveying “four”). Now there are two months in the lunar calendar with the name Rabi’; the third month Rabi’I and the fourth month Rabi’II. Use of the word in the fourth month is understandable, whilst its use in the third suggests that it is the fourth sacred month.

The Qur’an implies in ayat 9:1-5 that the sacred months are consecutive.”


Firstly the reason that there are two months sharing the names of “Rabi’” is the same reason why there are two months sharing the name “Jumada” (summer). “Rabi’” in these instances means “spring” and it simply refers to the time of the year when these lunar months were named. It has nothing to do with sacred months. Secondly the relevant Qur’anic ayat are these:


“So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.”

Qur’an 9:2


“So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Qur’an 9:5


Ayah 9:2 does not provide details to support or refute the idea of consecutive sacred months, since it will depend on the reader’s interpretation. What is to suggest that “going about in the land for four months” does not refer to going about in the land for four months of the year?? Ayah 9:5 can be interpreted to mean “when the sacred months are not ensuing (this is applicable because Muharram is the first lunar month and it is sacred). Rajab will come, but when it has passed, it has passed.

To support this view, the policy/punishment to the guilty idolaters in 9:1-5 is applicable not just to one year, but to every year in which they are around:


“O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque AFTER THIS YEAR of theirs; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.”

Qur’an 9:28


Thus it is appropriate to say that the four months referred to in 9:2 and 9:5 means four months of the year (i.e. each year), and not one specific set of four months.



ABSTENTIONS (EHRAAM) DURING HAJJ:

Hunting (5:1-2), (5:95)
War and fighting (2:217)
Sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments (2:197)
The cutting of the hair (2:196)


RITES:

The ‘Tawaaf’ (circling the Kaaba) (22:26, 29)
The Safa and Marwah (2:158)
Mount Arafat (2:198)
Animal Offerings (22:36), (5:97)

These are the rites of Hajj that are decreed by Allah (SWT).

The following are the Pagan rituals of Hajj which are not decreed by Allah (SWT) and have no basis nor authorization within Islam:

1.Black Stone
2.The water of zamzam
3.The stoning ritual
4.The Hajj garments (white towels)
5.Hajj via deputisation.
6.Women not allowed to perform the Hajj without a Mihrim.
7.Women (during menstruation) deprived of their prayers (thus not completing Hajj rituals).
8.Visiting the Prophet’s tomb in Medina and declaring it yet another “sacred masjid”. That is idol-worship.



FASTING



“(Fasting is) for a fixed number of days; and if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. And for those who can do it with great difficulty/great effort, is a ransom (if they do not fast), the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that you fast, if you only knew. The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desires ease for you; He does not desire hardship for you; and (He desires) that you should complete the period, and that you should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure you may be thankful.”

Qur’an 2:183-185


“…and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night…”

Qur’an 2:187


***


Khuda Hafiz

[Aprender]

OK. Fine, I'll leave you here to your stubbornness. I won't argue anymore since I really have no insight into this topic at the moment.

Peace

[MesMorial]

Aprender

Islam is already mess. It has a high birth-rate also. Tell me if you believe in killing apostates. Tell me what good Islam does the world thanks to ahadith? What happened to "No compulsion in religion"? Why do so many Muslims never integrate into society? Name one good thing from the ahadith aside from a few examples of how to pray (the tone of which is on occasions during each day against the Qur'an)? I don't care how people pray or what context particular decisions (e.g. jizya, zakat how many times to circumbulate) were made because as I said they ahadith are history and follow if you wish. But as you see the Sunnis here are very arrogant people and they think that they have read the Qur'an. I have a Sunni friend and she is very nice and she does not call herself a Sunni. She is simply one of millions (or more) who are caught in their own social web.

Women are equal to black dogs according to "the Sunna". Choose whatever version you like. Just don't laugh (Muslims) lest ye be laughed at. It is not hard to continue.

Peace.

[MesMorial]

Oh and another point to be made is that Islam stands on its own with the Qur'an-alone. If you worry about rakas etc. then just read the Qur'an and pay attention to the purpose of prayer. If the ahadith did not exist then one would not be blame by following what was there. Since the ahadith exist then people can follow if they so wish but just don't label anyone and stop worrying about stupid questions and start following the Message (nowhere does Qur'an place following ahadith as a criterion for Paradise). Following the Messenger was necessary due to the fact that people did not have paperback Qur'ans and there was a contextual situation (thus Muhammad (SAW) was community leader and the best example in remembering Allah (SWT)).

Prohibit whatever but you should realise that ahadith with prophecies etc. are indications of what was happening at the time (the bad guys won the war, remember).

Anyway, the Qur'an refutes the "Sunna of Muhammad" since Muhammad (SAW) only followed the Qur'an:


"And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed."

Qur'an 5:48


Thus hadith selection should be based on what is appropriate in this day and age, and never mistaken for "divine revelation". That is my entire point but people are so blind they just label.

[Aprender]

I'll answer you since I saw this and I don't want to be "rude". Well, I've heard about the birth rate issue. I've heard about apostates being killed and as far as I know "no compulsion in religion" is still upheld. No one has held a gun to my head telling me to revert or die. And anytime I ask about Islam, Muslim sisters are always happy to answer any of my questions but not once have I been forced or coerced to convert or believe in Islam. I can't name anything good from the ahadith because I'm not familiar with any of them. I'm not quite done reading the Qu'ran so this is over my head right now. I'm coming into topic here from the outside looking in.

Where I live, there is no such thing as Sunni or Shiite Muslims. We talk about those divisions in classes at the university, and some professors even comment on how silly it is for a division to exist over a disagreement that happened centuries ago, but every person I know who practices Islam are all just called Muslims and that's that.

The problem I have with your statement is that you label ALL Sunni's as arrogant people. In the United States, ALL Muslims are labeled as terrorists. Even I know that's not fair.

[Dagless]

Just an observation: you've written lengthy posts one after another but haven't actually responded to those who've asked you honest questions. Look at the posts and answer them point by point please - mine, Tyrion, Muraad, and naidamar.

[Ramadhan]

Ideally, it would be a progressive tax system.

You really are a hypocrite. You kept saying we have to follow qur'an only to keep pure, but you introduced your opinion as how zakat should be paid. You are nothing but following your own desires.

Now answer this:
You claim that the only revelation prophet Muhammad SAW received was the Qur'an, then tell me how prophet Muhammad performed shalah the way it is?
By your logic, prophet Muhammad chose the movements and number of rakaats and the duas etc by his own will or randomly.

[Ramadhan]

Hmmm it reminds me of something. Sunnis tell everyone what to do.

You are spreading lies again. Tell me who are these "sunnis" you keep saying about?

Also, you do need mirror, you keep saying sunnis tell everyone what to do, but you are doing exactly that yourself. You keep saying that all "sunnis" are wrong for following qur'an and sunnah. You are saying that all of us are wrong and telling us what to do!

And please address and answers questions from br. muraad etc here instead of copy pasting your drivel.

[Tyrion]

Just an observation: you've written lengthy posts one after another but haven't actually responded to those who've asked you honest questions. Look at the posts and answer them point by point please - mine, Tyrion, Muraad, and naidamar.

^ Yeah, try answering some of the earlier posts por favor. I'm interested in seeing how you respond...

[MesMorial]

Why did I receive a warning as a PM? I laughed. Someone who does not agree will get kicked out (of the club that makes zero sense). Also why does everyone misquote me? I said the Sunnis here (i.e. the ones who have responded) are arrogant. I am called a hypocrite because I quote the Qur'an concerning zakat (the person was annoyed because a pet point was tarnished!) How many ahadith did scholars have to stitch together to get the modern prayer (in some prayers Muhammad (SAW) prayed 11 so as I said his was simply an example and the prayer is quite explicit if you read my salat article... Also prayer was passed down from Ibrahim (SAW) so no-one can prove that Raka are actually necessary. The Qur'an is the only Revelation necessary for guidance:

"Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward."

Qur'an 17:9


So whose group is more comical? And what is the point of being Muslim? Is it so you can have an excuse to follow a new "Sunna" which is prohibited by your Holy Book, or is it so you can do good for the world?


I am asked who are these "sunnis" who tell everyone what to do?? Ever heard of the Taliban for example? Sunni scholars? It is not just Sunnis but please do not ask stupid questions and ask me to answer them as if they are a challenge. I am not sure what spectacular points have been brought up so far but if they are as good as "what about prayer" then the time it takes finding them will be made up for the time saved in answering them instead of awaiting people's reply to the Qur'an.

Peace.

[MesMorial]

Ah yes please see the second video of my favourites on Youtube (regarding prayer). Also read my article to discover the actual purpose for prayer (it is not a ritual).

[MesMorial]

Yes the problem is that people take quotations from ahadith out of context. E.g. if a companion calls another an idiot for ignoraning raka then that person's opinion is accepted (because that person had the same attitude!). No-one can answer the Qur'an's challenge to produce something like it so they just declare without proof that the Prophet (SAW) had "the Qur'an and something like it". ?? What about the ahadith which prohibit the writing of ahadith in his time? Yet people try to prove that ahadith were written in his time (a poor attempt by Bassam Zawadi) which proves nothing except that people wrote things in his time. Abu Harairah the great liar is one of the most cherished sources of Islam for Sunnis. Bassam Zawadi's rebuttal is a puff (i.e. "because he said so").


If any one of you accepts as LAW (which you do yet you claim that they are not equal to the Qur'an) a lie, he or she is a hypocrite, no question:


"And who is more unjust than one who forges a lie against Allah, or gives the lie to the truth when it has come to him? Will not in hell be the abode of the unbelievers?"

Qur'an 29:68


The five pillars are in the Qur'an yet still when the Qur'an asks you which hadith you follow you enshrine Bukhari and Muslim etc. as a second source of religious law. You make the Prophet's tomb a second Sacred Mosque (?)


"It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah's; but rather [he would say]: Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading [it yourselves].

80. And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims?"

Qur'an 3:79-80


"Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up [with Him]."

Qur'an 6:19

“And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others [with Him].”

106


Most believers are also idol-worshippers, though they may not perceive.

“Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me. And they broke their religion (into sects) between them: to Us shall all come back.”

92-93


The Qur’an is the truth (2:40-42, 2:91, 2:119, 2:147, 2:176, 5:48, 16:102). See 10:32-33 and the notes. The Qur’an is the sole guidance (2:63, 2:91, 2:176, 6:19, 6:114-115, 6:157, 7:144-147, 7:169-171, 12:111, 18:27, 21:45, 39:23, 45:6 etc.). Therefore those who introduce new sources of religious law are innovating and diverting Islam. All sects are forbidden and unnecessary.

I am saying you have very little in the way of logic to support you. But you only ignore and label. That is fine, but do not pretend to be secure.

Peace.

[Muhaba]

Allah says in the Quran that he sent the Prophet (SAW) to explain what Allah revealed (the Quran). additionally Allah says that we should obey the Prophet (SAW), that he is the best example for us, that if we love Allah then we should obey the Prophet (SAW) and then Allah will love us. All such verses prove that we have to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW).

[MesMorial]

“And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.”

3:187


The word for “make it known” (proclaim) is “litubayyena”. This is similar to the word used for “proclaim” in 16:44:

“With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may proclaim to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.”

However, some scholars opted the irrelevant and alternate meaning for the word in 16:44 by claiming that it means “explain”. If the Qur’an is a clear Message explained by Allah (SWT) (16:44!, 75:19) then it is impossible for someone to claim that ayah 44 of sura 16 tells Muhammad (SAW) to explain it. He was only a plain warner (7:184). This argument also applies to 16:64.


Muhammad (SAW) was a good example for those who REMEMBER ALLAH (33:21). The context is war and his example is good certainly compared to the other behaviour described in the surrounding verses. Also, his being a "good example" (even though we know it applies only to remembrance and thus following Qur'an) does not make it compulsory but as I said the ahadith provide examples. Why should ahadith not be selected based on their cohesion with the Qur'an (which is cohesive with humanity)? Ibrahim (SAW) was also a good example for a specific context (60:4).

Peace.

[MesMorial]

Thankyou for being polite.

[Ramadhan]

I am called a hypocrite because I quote the Qur'an concerning zakat (the person was annoyed because a pet point was tarnished!)

Can you address my question?
You propose that zakat should be made progressive, but where in the qur'an it is said zakat is progressive?

I am asking the question to highlight how hypocrite you are. You claim sunnis are unislamic (which effectively call us all kafir) for following something that is not in the qur'an, and yet, here you are at least in the issue of zakat advocating something that is not in the qur'an.

How many ahadith did scholars have to stitch together to get the modern prayer (in some prayers Muhammad (SAW) prayed 11 so as I said his was simply an example and the prayer is quite explicit if you read my salat article.

This is a conclusive evidence how your knowledge in Islam very shallow. either that or you are deceiving.
Please be specific and tell us from the hadith what kind of prayer when prophet Muhammad (saw) did the 11 rakaat? and how it was done and when?
Do not deceive and make it as if the prophet (saw) prayed 11 rakaat as one of the 5 fard shalah. Did the hadith say that prophet Muhammad SAW pray shalah fajr 11 rakaat?
Be honest.

Now, answer my question that you have not answered:
You claim that the only revelation prophet Muhammad SAW received was the Qur'an, then tell me how did prophet Muhammad performed shalah the way it is?

So whose group is more comical? And what is the point of being Muslim?

This is non sensical.
Can you be a bit more coherent?

Is it so you can have an excuse to follow a new "Sunna" which is prohibited by your Holy Book, or is it so you can do good for the world

Another lie. I shouldn't expect better from a hypocrite.
First, who wants an excuse?
second, what new "sunna" are you talking about?
third, what is prohibited by "my holy book"? (IF you are a muslim, isnt my holy book the same as yours. I am starting to have severe doubts as to who you actually are).

I am asked who are these "sunnis" who tell everyone what to do??

You were the one who repeatedly used "sunnis", not any of us. It's clear that you are here only to cause division.

Ever heard of the Taliban for example?

Then you need to use specifics, and not "sunnis". I dont know much about the taliban, and I am not following what the talibans say, I am following qur'an and sunnah. So again, this example is a big fail.

Sunni scholars?

What about sunni scholars?

tell me, how do you understand the qur'an? How would you know that a certain verse was revealed during certain situation and apply to certain specific if not for the sunni scholars that you have been trashing?
You really are laughable.

I am not sure what spectacular points have been brought up so far but if they are as good as "what about prayer"

If you think the answer is simple, then why not answering them here?

[Ramadhan]

Also read my article to discover the actual purpose for prayer (it is not a ritual).

no one ever said that the actual purpose for prayer is ritual.
Big fail on your part.

And please stop evading and answer my question.

[Ramadhan]

Abu Harairah the great liar is one of the most cherished sources of Islam for Sunnis.

You have just accused a beloved companion of the prophet Muhammad SAW as a great liar.

May Allah SWT and all of us who read this be witness against your slander in the day of judgement. Amiin.

I think it is now safe to say we know who you are.

BTW, did you realize that you've just trashed one of shahabas who are granted place in jannah:

So those who emigrated and were driven out of their homes, who suffered in My cause, who fight and were slain – (will most certainly blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into gardens beneath which rivers flow. A reward from Allah; and with Allah is the best of ‘reward (Surah Aal-`Imran: 19.5)

[جوري]

Hmmm it reminds me of something. Sunnis tell everyone what to do.

You aren't doing what everyone is doing.. though God is with the majority -- tell me why are you not at peace with your heretical sect? Clearly your argument doesn't hold water even with little children-- yet you seem convinced that your heterodox renditions are accurate. Islam goes with fitrah/nature and what you bring goes against it... no one converts into Islam and becomes a 'Quranite' you must actually actively join a deviant sect and convince yourself that the Quran denotes other than what is clearly patent to everyone and though everyone has come to you with a mountain of evidence against what you utter, none Muslims even can see things more clearly than you, and yet there you're vehemently persistent, exasperated, mortally wounded though we've collectively treated you with kid gloves.. Is saving face more important to you than being accurate? If it is the case then I truly pity you and you're to be pitied twice. For you're not a Muslim, you've not convinced yourself that your brand of Islam is remotely accurate, and you've enjoyed the life of a kaffir. Second only to nuns your life is so pitiful!

all the best

[all4salam]

The points Mesmorial made hasn't been refuted by any one of you. Instead you ALL get aggresive and counter question the points he has made. Why won't any of you have the guts to refute anything he has said by the Qur'an? That's what you can't do. I was on another forum and someone actually said "you should learn from a scholar instead of using your brain". It seems that you all are incapable of critical thinking.

[Ramadhan]

The points Mesmorial made hasn't been refuted by any one of you.

What points?

all he did has been pasting series of translations of qur'an verses while making no point and making no argument.
and after copy pasting the verses, he went on to trash all of us sunnis and the shahaba.

In any case, he is the one who has not answered all of our simple questions.

Also, I see that in the other thread you have not answered br. Muraad's questions for you.

Why won't any of you have the guts to refute anything he has said by the Qur'an? That's what you can't do.

Either you cannot read or you are a liar.
sis. Lily and br. Muraad on page 1 have addressed him using qur'an verses.

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Quran only Muslims? Just an excuse, I've heard of people be "Quran only" Muslims and they use it as an excuse to drink Alcohol and not cover up in public. It's an aweful innovation.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s Ummah is growing and will continue to grow.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Abu Harairah the great liar is one of the most cherished sources of Islam for Sunnis.

Look at your hypocrisy coming forth from your own words. You call a Companion of the Prophet (saw) a liar, when Allaah has praised him and said He is pleased with him (9:100) in the very same Qur'an you claim you believe in. Of course you don't believe in the Qur'an, because had you believed in it, you would not have called a liar one who Allaah praised in the Qur'an. But you are a liar as the hypocrites are liars and Allaah himself has borne witness to the fact that you are a liar. والله يشهد إن المنافقين لكاذبون

I'm glad you're exposing your disbelief yourself, that saves everyone here much time in refuting you. Thank you for showing your true face.

It's ok though, every single hadeeth rejector that we've had on this forum always gets caught in a lie and self contradiction. You're not the first.

[Ali Mujahidin]

To say that Islam needs to reform is to say that Islam is not complete. It is the same as saying that Allah does not know everything, which is a notion totally at odds with the very concept of Allah. Just because you cannot find the answer in Islam does not mean the answer is not there. All it means is that you did not know where to look. Or you are looking with your eyes shut tight and your heart closed to the truth.

[Muhaba]

why are you so against hadith? Allah sent the Prophet (SAW) so that he would be a guide for us and we would follow his way (sunnah). if only the Quraan was necessary, Allah could have just have sent the Book and not the Prophet.
there are many places in the Quran where we are told to obey and follow the Prophet SAW, as i said in my previous post which you so conveniently ignored. consider also what the previous messengers say to their nations about following them (the messengers). See Surah Ash-Shu'ara (26 chapter) as an example, where many of the messengers tell their nations to obey them. and obeying messengers means to obey what the messenger is telling us to do, that is the hadith and sunnah of the Prophet (SAW).

The people of Noah denied the messengers
When their brother Noah said to them, "Will you not fear Allah ?
Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger.
So fear Allah and obey me.
And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord of the worlds.
So fear Allah and obey me."(26:106-110)

[MesMorial]

Peace Muhaba;

I am not so against ahadith. My idea is simply to accept ahadith based on their compatibility with the Qur'an, and not to hold it obligatory above a personal level. If we return to the Message, Islam will unite once more.


5-Minute Proof:


“Obey Allah and obey the Messenger” = “Obey the ordinance of Allah (SWT) through Muhammad (SAW)”:


“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.”

Qur’an 4:59


If Allah (SWT) is represented by the Qur’an and the Messenger by his interpretation of the Qur’an (ahadith), is Islam a religion authored by at least three different sources? Notice that after consulting those in authority we are instructed to refer disagreements to “Allah and His Messenger”. Thus, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger” must necessarily reference one source (if scholars are to judge by the Qur’an (5:48), then they are already obeying “Allah and His Messenger” and therefore their mention is redundant). “Those in authority” are for example people capable of reacting to security situations (see 8:43).

It has been conclusively proven that the phrase “obey Allah and Obey the Messenger” means “obey the ordinance of Allah (SWT) via Muhammad (SAW). It does not say to follow ahadith. According to 4:65, Messengers must make certain decisions when it is necessary to do so (i.e. concerning matters of disagreement). When the final decision is made (in keeping with the Qur’an and the way of Allah (SWT)), it should be followed. Consultation may be required (3:159, 60:12) and is recommended (3:159, 42:38). Other general decisions and responsibilities of leadership concern following and conveying the Message. Otherwise his decisions are obviously contextual to time.

Also remember it was necessary for Allah (SWT) to specify “obey the Messenger” so that people would know how to obey Allah (SWT) (see 4:80 and notes). It is especially applicable since the Qur’an records Allah’s (SWT) mandate for His Messenger to pass on orders (e.g. beginning ayat with “Say:”). There were at the time more ayat to come, and thus people were instructed (to be ready) to obey them (confirmed by 16:1). See also the notes for 3:31-32. No-one at the time had a paperback Qur’an, thus of course it was necessary to follow Muhammad (SAW).

“O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.”

The phrase “while you hear” suggests that to obey Allah and His Messenger is to obey the Revelation. See 24:51:

“The response of the believers, when they are invited to Allah and His Messenger that he may judge between them, is only to say: We hear and we obey; and these it is that are the successful.”

If “Allah and His Messenger” means that Muhammad (SAW) is to judge between people, this judgement must certainly be based on the Qur’an since Allah (SWT) does not consult Muhammad (SAW) regarding decision-making. The first ayah of sura 9 declares that an ultimatum is issued from Allah (SWT) and His Messenger. We know that the verses about the ultimatum are entirely from Allah (SWT) because He does not consult Muhammad about the ultimatum. Muhammad’s (SAW) only mission was to deliver Allah’s (SWT) Message (16:35, 24:54). Thus, the reason that Allah (SWT) included the Messenger in 9:1 is because he participated as deliverer of the ultimatum. Similarly, because people received Allah’s (SWT) Message through Messengers, they were ordered to obey the Messengers. This is repeated in 9:3. We also know that the Qur’an is a permanent messenger (65:11), and that the Qur’an is a reminder and deliverer of good news (41:4, 11:2). What Muhammad (SAW) decides as a Messenger of religious teaching is what Allah (SWT) decides (33:36). See (notes for) 4:59 to sufficiently substantiate these claims.

Remember it was clearer at the time (amongst the people) for the Qur’an to say “Obey Allah and His Messenger” than to simply say “Obey Allah” or “Obey what Muhammad follows”. The first is confusing without needing to explain why, and the second is silly because Muhammad (SAW) was divulging the Qur’an and thus he might be following himself! It would be redundant to say “Obey what the Messenger follows” because the Message was being delivered by a person, and therefore we have to obey that person anyway (again he might be following himself). The Qur’an might have said “Obey the Message” but then luckily Muhammad (SAW) is instructed to do only that in 5:43-50 and many other places (e.g. 7:203, 10:15. The Qur’an is the sole guidance (2:63, 2:91, 2:176, 6:19, 6:114-115, 6:157, 7:144-147, 7:169-171, 12:111, 18:27, 21:45, 39:23, 45:6 etc.)). It is after all necessary to know exactly where that Message is coming from (saying “Messenger” instead of “Message” clarifies this). It is especially applicable since the Qur’an records Allah’s (SWT) mandate for His Messenger to pass on orders (e.g. beginning ayat with “Say:”). No-one at the time had a paperback Qur’an, thus of course it was necessary to follow Muhammad (SAW). Ayat such as 7:58 explain that the Qur’an repeats ayat to help us understand it.

“And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! make this city secure, and save me and my sons from worshipping idols. My Lord! surely they have led many men astray; then whoever follows me, he is surely of me, and whoever disobeys me, Thou surely art Forgiving, Merciful.”

35-36


Following and obeying the Messengers/Prophets means following their example in obeying Allah (SWT) and remembering Him. This is quite clear.


“And warn people of the day when the chastisement shall come to them, then those who were unjust will say: O our Lord! respite us to a near term, [so] we shall respond to THY CALL and follow the messengers. What! did you not swear before [that] there will be no passing away for you!”

44


Following and obeying the Messengers/Prophets means following their example in obeying Allah (SWT) and remembering Him.


Again I simply say we should get the ahadith into perspective. If we follow one single false one we are hypocrites. We get around the strange ahadith by not deeming them obligatory, and such it should be with anything since Islam is detailed by the Qur'an. Ahadith are just history, true or false, good examples or bad examples. People can follow what they wish provided Muslims stand up for the true values of the Message.

Peace.

[MesMorial]

Naidamar said:

"tell me, how do you understand the qur'an? How would you know that a certain verse was revealed during certain situation and apply to certain specific if not for the sunni scholars that you have been trashing?
You really are laughable.'

The Qur'an explains itself (75:19). I have read the Qur'an and I never found that understanding its values was inhibited by needing to know the context of every verse. The context was given (e.g. 9:29).

Peace.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Let me put it this way:

If Allah had created man with the ability to understand the Quran directly, why did he send the Holy Prophet? Surely it cannot be that he had one prophet too many. I am interested in knowing how you can practice Islam without reference to the life and example of the Holy Prophet. Perhaps you think that you know better than the Holy Prophet? Or maybe you think you are more knowledgeable than the Sahabah? Or maybe you think you have some special ability that was not present in the Muslim scholars?

Myself, I am jahil and I am thankful that Allah had sent the Holy Prophet to be my guidance.

[MesMorial]

Let me put it this way:

If Allah had created man with the ability to understand the Quran directly, why did he send the Holy Prophet? Surely it cannot be that he had one prophet too many. I am interested in knowing how you can practice Islam without reference to the life and example of the Holy Prophet. Perhaps you think that you know better than the Holy Prophet? Or maybe you think you are more knowledgeable than the Sahabah? Or maybe you think you have some special ability that was not present in the Muslim scholars?

Myself, I am jahil and I am thankful that Allah had sent the Holy Prophet to be my guidance.

Being happy is the usual argument :cry:

To answer your question we need only consult the Qur'an. Messengers were sent as warners and for no other reason (16:35) (they will serve as a witness later). These warners could not guide us beyond the Message:

"Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way. And they say: If we follow the guidance with you, we shall be carried off from our country. What! have We not settled them in a safe, sacred territory to which fruits of every kind shall be drawn?-- a sustenance from Us; but most of them do not know."

Qur'an 28:56-57


So already it is established that following the Messenger means following the guidance with them.


The Qur’an is the truth (2:40-42, 2:91, 2:119, 2:147, 2:176, 5:48, 16:102). See 10:32-33 and the notes. The Qur’an is the sole guidance (2:63, 2:91, 2:176, 6:19, 6:114-115, 6:157, 7:144-147, 7:169-171, 12:111, 18:27, 21:45, 39:23, 45:6 etc.). Therefore those who introduce new sources of religious law are innovating and diverting Islam. All sects are forbidden and unnecessary.

The evidence is simply overwhelming. You can justify following a method of prayer (except praying silently at times and mentioning Muhammad (SAW)) but my point is upholding things which add nothing to the Message beyond embellishment (e.g. do you accept that a woman passing in front of a praying person nullifies their prayer?)


“And certainly Haroun had said to them before: O my people! you are only tried by it, and surely your Lord is the Beneficent Allah, therefore follow me and obey my order.”

Qur'an 20:90


Obeying the Messengers means obeying their judgements which will be according to the Message and following the guidance which they (the Messengers) themselves have received. In this instance people are to obey the Messengers by not associating others with Allah (SWT) (i.e. by following the Message). See also 20:92-93. Was Haroun another source of obligatory religious law besides Musa (SAW)??


“And had We destroyed them with chastisement before this, they would certainly have said: O our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger, for then we should have followed Thy communications before that we met disgrace and shame.”

20:134


Ah, so obeying the command requires following the Messengers (4:80) because Messengers brought the Message.



“And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My communications and that with which they are warned for a mockery.”

18:56


Messengers are only warners. Disbelievers contend this ordinance.


“Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.”

18:110


Muhammad (SAW) is not be worshipped nor held in regard (to religious teaching) as anything more than a Messenger and warner (6:19, 7:184, 7:203, 16:35). He adhered to and judged only by the Qur’an (5:48).


Do you see why "Qur'an-Alone" means the Qur'an?


“We know best what they listen to when they listen to you, and when they take counsel secretly, when the unjust say: You follow only a man deprived of reason.”

47


This ayah reveals that following the Messenger was following the Message that he delivered (see 10:2, 10:76, 21:3-5 etc.).


Remember that Messengers cannot guide. So how are we guided?


“Surely this Qur’an guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.”

17:9


remember accepting one single hadith which is false is hypocrisy


“Who isthen more unjust than who forges a lie against Allah or (who) gives the lie to His communications? Surely the guilty shall not be successful.”

17



So no-one should hold obligatory anything that is not in the Qur'an. We may consider ahadith as examples some of which are true, false good or bad, but it is quite impossible to refute the Qur'an and maintain a rival doctrine called "the Sunna". No doubt a lot of the sunna is ok, but it is not actually a sunna and is an example.

This way there will be no more deaths for apostasy or honour killings etc. etc. etc. And there will be no more arrogance from people.

I can quite more and more verses.

Peace.

[MesMorial]

The last verse is 10:17 sorry.

If anyone as a Muslim ever wants to use the Qur'an to prove that my views are false then please message me on my AllPoetry page. I will not remain here.

Peace.