format_quote Originally Posted by
SalamChristian
"Equates" "Equal" "Equivalent"--Here is the problem with using those words. Jesus says numerous times, as I have already quoted in this thread "The father is greater than I am." Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I am an economics grad and I believe algebra tells us that:
Father > son AND,
Father = son CANNOT BOTH BE TRUE.
If you believe in Sola Scriptura and the divinity of our Bible, you've got to drop the "equal" claim, or else you are stuck denying clear statements made by Jesus (pbuh).
I too am an economics grad AND have a masters in divinity. Your objection is duly noted that both statements cannot be true when we are speaking mathematically. But we aren't. So, your symbols don't represent the essence of the statements that I believe the Bible makes with regard to the relationship between the Father and the Son. What the Bible presents are these statements:
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:29-30)
Note that neither of these passages specify in what manner that the Father is greater. Is it in position? authority? state of being? But whatever it is, it does not prevent Jesus from also saying that he and the Father are one. And it does no good to argue that Jesus only means something like one in purpose, for that does not fit with the Greek grammar that was employed by John in writing the passage (linked to another place where the Father is said to be greater), and it does not fit with the response of the Jews who sought to kill him for claiming to be God by such a statement. (Something they have no reason to do if Jesus just meant one in purpose with God's purposes.)
There are some things that Jesus claims that he shares with the Father, and one of them is the Father's glory: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5). This not only speaks of Jesus' glorification, but that he had it BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
As far as equality with God, that is in scripture:
Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The pre-incarnate Christ had it, he just didn't grasp it, but in coming to earth emptied himself of it in order to live as a man and in his incarnation possessed our nature. But that didn't mean the other was no longer true of him, only that he did not exercise his divine nature while on earth. Still, one has to take seriously the final exaltation that is described, especially when it is read in light of Isaiah 45.
Isaiah 45 was understood by the 1st century Jew as a passage with spoke of the oneness and the sovereignty of God. In it is repeated the idea “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5, see also vs. 6, 14, 18, 21, & 22). Of God and God alone, the Holy One of Israel, is it to be true "Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear" (Isaiah 45:23).
Such things are not said lightly, for God himself declares: “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols" (Isaiah 42:8). Yet, here we see that God has given Jesus this name (LORD) that is his own name and is above every other, and he has indeed shared his glory with Jesus.
Now, since Philippians was written by Paul, and there are a lot of Paul-haters here, I expect to here how this is Paul once again corrupting the truth. But it isn't just Paul, in fact, consider what else is included in the passage that Paul quotes from:
Isaiah 42
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”
So it is God, the creator, who is announces in this passage what he will one day do. And when do we hear of these things next occuring? On the very lips of Jesus. And I don't mean just when he read from scroll of Isaiah and pronounced that the prophecy had been fulfilled in the hearing of those there that day, though that should be enough to see what it was that Jesus was claiming. But consider his response to John the Baptist's question:
Luke 7
20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”
21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”
format_quote Originally Posted by
SalamChristian
Lastly, any claim that Jesus (pbuh) literally meant that he was the image of God must be refuted by the looooong biblical tradition that God (swt) cannot be seen. Even to see God indirectly Moses had to purify himself for months and months, and still he was disfigured by it. Indeed, in this claim Jesus is responding to the skepticism that was inherent in Philip and Man in general--that disbelievers always say they want to see the Father before they will believe, but it is not possible until after the Second Coming and Millennial reign to see God directly.
Salaam Alaikum
What do you mean by literal? What do you mean by image?
The scriptures record that mankind was made in the image of God. Is that to be understood to be literally true or something else? Well, I suggest to you that it is indeed to be understood as literally true, but not physically true.
I believe that we are created spiritually in the image of God, because the Bible says that we are created in God's image. But I don't believe it refers to a physical image as though created in God's image, God created us physically both male and female. If we were to be a physical rendering of the image of God, then we would all have the same physical image. So, I either reject the text as false, or consider the posibility that the text remains true, but that I need to understand it in some way other than a physical image. When we later learn that God is spirit, and realizing that God breathed life into us, we can see that perhaps the image of God that we possess is not a physical image but a spiritual one. This also makes sense out of the Biblical injunction not to make any graven image of God, for the highest form of any image of God is that which God himself created, humanity. We are to bear that image of God into the world. (Though it wasn't long before we messed that up.) But, I believe that the principle ministry of Jesus among us, was to reconcile humanity to God so that we could once again be his image bearers: "just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man [i.e., Jesus]" (1 Corinthians 15:47). Christ is himself the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4), and we who are in Christ can expect to "put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator" (Colossians 3:10).