Is there a war against Islam ? I ask this question because many non Muslims seem to t

[truthseeker63]

Is there a war against Islam ? I ask this question because many non Muslims seem to think the that the so called war on terro is not a war against Islam I disagree I think that this war is the modern day Crusades. I think the West is trying to push and force Muslims to become Secular like the West is does anyone here agree with me ?

[Argamemnon]

Undoubtedly, disbelievers want to "secularize" Muslims. This is neither unexpected nor strange because we have been warned in the Qur'an that this would happen.

However, if Muslims were true Muslims; if they strictly adhered to basic Islamic values - if they used their brains a little bit more (!) - no force in the world would be able to harm us. Why?


Allah (SWT) clearly mentions in the Qur'an [42:30] وَمَا أَصَابَكُم مِّن مُّصِيبَةٍ فَبِمَا كَسَبَتْ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَيَعْفُو عَن كَثِيرٍ


"Anything bad that happens to you is a consequence of your own deeds, and He overlooks many (of your sins)."

[abjad]

Is there a war against Islam ?

No....i mean not ISLAM

B
u
t..................Yes within muslims themselves....and that u know for sure.

and for Islam i can prove to you follow the link please.

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...does-mean.html

[Predator]

I think the West is trying to push and force Muslims to become Secular like the West is does anyone here agree with me ?

The west are actually afraid that If Islam spreads , they can no longer enjoy ( no more alcohol,drugs, prostitution, pornography , discos etc ) that why the west media tries to malign islam and the more they malign islam the more Islam actually spreads

http://www.sultan.org/articles/convert.html


And they planned , Allah also plans and the best of planners is Allah. Quran 3:54

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Argamemnon]

and the more they malign islam the more Islam actually spreads

I sooo wish this was true. IMHO, millions of Muslims in Muslim countries are slowly adopting western values; some countries more than others, but this is the general trend!

[Huzzy_786]

Have any of you heard of EDL? For those who live in England?

[Ghazalah]

Have any of you heard of EDL? For those who live in England?

Who claim they're against those who advocate Shariah but aren't against Muslims? :giggling: Typical English thinking...

[MartyrX]

We can thank the Western media for it's portrayal of Islam for the hatred. People don't understand and when they hear the "talking points" that's all they hear. They don't bother to do outside research either, and just believe what they've been told. I discussed this last night with a Brother and we've both come to the conclusion that if more Americans would go out and do some research they would know not to be afraid.

[Mike3449]

We can thank the Western media for it's portrayal of Islam for the hatred. People don't understand and when they hear the "talking points" that's all they hear. They don't bother to do outside research either, and just believe what they've been told. I discussed this last night with a Brother and we've both come to the conclusion that if more Americans would go out and do some research they would know not to be afraid.

I don't think there is a war against Islam.

Not yet.

There is a war Islam is waging all over the world... but, people are slow in the West. You almost have to slam them into buildings...

Ha, Ha...

[جوري]

You almost have to slam them into buildings... Ha, Ha...

yeah with plastic knives and invisible planes.. that is indeed funny.. so where does all that western bravado come from one often wonders.. but I suppose gigantic bodies and bird brain will carpet bomb everything..

OP.. there is indeed a war against Islam and Muslims.. bit never fear, we're an ancient passionate people.. we ALWAYS come up on top!

:w:

[Aprender]

yeah with plastic knives and invisible planes.. that is indeed funny.. so where does all that western bravado come from one often wonders.. but I suppose gigantic bodies and bird brain will carpet bomb everything..

OP.. there is indeed a war against Islam and Muslims.. bit never fear, we're an ancient passionate people.. we ALWAYS come up on top!

:w:

:) Well said.

To answer your question, I don't think there is a war on Islam per se but more a war on Muslims. From my experience it just seems that people in the West no longer want Muslims to adhere to the teachings of the faith so they'll be like everyone else. They don't want that ummah to grow. There is a common saying where I live that "Islam is the only religion that is still practiced today."

Goes with the whole idea that people are afraid of what they don't understand.I don't believe they'll succeed. They'll try, but no.

[Mike3449]

yeah with plastic knives and invisible planes.. that is indeed funny.. so where does all that western bravado come from one often wonders.. but I suppose gigantic bodies and bird brain will carpet bomb everything..

OP.. there is indeed a war against Islam and Muslims.. bit never fear, we're an ancient passionate people.. we ALWAYS come up on top!

:w:

1400 YEARS... that is not ancient.

But, zIslam has destroyed ancient. Is that any consolation?

The Persian Empire... The Egyptian Empire.

Imagine what those would look like today?

Egypt probably would have went to the Moon 1000 years ago.

But, the Arabs invaded.

[Aprender]

1400 YEARS... that is not ancient.

But, zIslam has destroyed ancient. Is that any consolation?

The Persian Empire... The Egyptian Empire.

Imagine what those would look like today?

Egypt probably would have went to the Moon 1000 years ago.

But, the Arabs invaded.

What do you have against Islam/Arabs? ^o)

[جوري]

1400 YEARS... that is not ancient. But, zIslam has destroyed ancient. Is that any consolation? The Persian Empire... The Egyptian Empire. Imagine what those would look like today? Egypt probably would have went to the Moon 1000 years ago. But, the Arabs invaded.

Islam is the religion that has always been. As an Egyptian I am grateful that Islam came to Egypt and took it out of paganism to the age of reason and enlightenment.. Every Muslim will attest to their gratitude to the gift that enabled their people (the same ancient people) to not only progress in the material sense but the spiritual one as can only be fulfilled by the reason of Islam.. Indeed Egyptians would have attained greater good if they'd remained a part of the Muslim empire which dissolved 200 years ago, in lieu of the corrupt secular system that is imposed by the west and perpetuated by despots and parroted by the stupids (like you)--Only Islam has given the world both material enlightenment and spiritual fulfillment.. and its age of reason while Europe mired in the dark ages is a testament to its divine glory!

all the best

[Skavau]

The west are actually afraid that If Islam spreads , they can no longer enjoy ( no more alcohol,drugs, prostitution, pornography , discos etc ) that why the west media tries to malign islam and the more they malign islam the more Islam actually spreads

Well, such encroachment into said activities by Muslims in the western world is not happening - but let's propose hypothetically that it was: Would you blame Non-Muslims for wanting to safeguard their personal liberties?

[MartyrX]

I'm personally all for everyone's personal liberties, but their is a good amount of unjustified anger, fear as well aimed at our community. The protest at the fund-raiser in California is evident of that.

[MartyrX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM

This is what we're talking about. Pure hatred.

[Argamemnon]

I don't think there is a war against Islam.

Not yet.

There is a war Islam is waging all over the world... but, people are slow in the West. You almost have to slam them into buildings...

Ha, Ha...

If Muslims are "waging wars all over the world" then why are Muslim lands under occupation and our natural resources plundered by kafir westerners? Why are dictators being installed to serve western interests? Apparently we are not fighting hard enough?

Why are western states conducting overt and covert operations to topple our governments or to assassinate our leaders and scientists? Why are western states always meddling in our internal affairs???

Did it ever occur to you that the opposite might be the case; that the West is waging wars against Islam and/or to plunder other nations' natural resources, both of which are crimes against humanity??


"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only!" [Verse 2:11]

[tigerkhan]

The west are actually afraid that If Islam spreads , they can no longer enjoy ( no more alcohol,drugs, prostitution, pornography , discos etc ) that why the west media tries to malign islam and the more they malign islam the more Islam actually spreads

i agree with this........actually its a war btw the "commitment to religion" and "freedom". i blv mostly these ppl are not following Christianity or Judaism, Hinduism or what so ever they have religion...bcz in most of religions eating pork, alcohol is prohibited and they stress in modest dressing, but ppl dont like these restriction, they want to follow their own desires. they want a "freedom" in life. so they are only against islam bcz in islam there are still these restriction and commitment to the GOD, however they are changed other religion according to their desires. so no christian feel bad while eating pork or taking alcohol.

[Argamemnon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM

This is what we're talking about. Pure hatred.

That blonde woman, lol.. Insha'Allah soon she will receive those "marines' in coffins. Make Muslims prevail over the Kuffar ya Rabbi...

I think I'm going to watch some Jihad videos insha'Allah, I'm in the mood after seeing this video..

[joedawun]

This is what we're talking about. Pure hatred.

That video is far beyond disturbing. What a disgusting display of ignorance.

[Trumble]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM

This is what we're talking about. Pure hatred.

As you say. :cry: Those 'Tea Party' crazies scare me, they really do. It's sort of conservative/libertarian ideology for people incapable of actually understanding conservative/libertarian ideology so greed and hate are substituted instead.

[MartyrX]

That blonde woman, lol.. Insha'Allah soon she will receive those "marines' in coffins. Make Muslims prevail over the Kuffar ya Rabbi...

I think I'm going to watch some Jihad videos insha'Allah, I'm in the mood after seeing this video..

It's hard to contain your anger for that kind of hate speech. I don't wish death on anyone. As the Imam said yesterday "We need to forgive." It's hard though when they want to see us die.

[glo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM

This is what we're talking about. Pure hatred.

Having watched this video, I want to cry! That hatred was just oozing out from the computer screen, and I can feel my stomach tightening. imsad

How humbling to watch those families calmly and peacefully walking to their charity event in the face of that barrage of verbal insult, without retaliating or even responding in any way.
That's what I call a peaceful witness!

No question on which side of the cordon I'd rather stand.

[Argamemnon]

It's hard to contain your anger for that kind of hate speech. I don't wish death on anyone. As the Imam said yesterday "We need to forgive." It's hard though when they want to see us die.

"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous." [9:123]

Obviously, we know this verse doesn't command us to be hostile against peaceful non-Muslims who are "adjacent to us". However, it warns us to be prepared and strong against those who are planning to attack or are hostile. And if necessary we have to fight them. This is the correct tafseer of this particular verse.

Hence, we must never show any weakness to the enemies of Islam who are preparing to attack us, or those who are aiding the attackers. Hopefully I have made myself clear now, insha'Allah? :)

Salam/ Peace

[glo]

^
How would you have reacted towards those protesters, if you had gone to the charity event, Argamemnon?

Personally, I think the peaceful reaction of the Muslims I saw speaks louder than any angry response I can imagine!
Would you say that peacefully ignoring the hateful verbal insults is a sign of weakness?

[Pygoscelis]

We can thank the Western media for it's portrayal of Islam for the hatred. People don't understand and when they hear the "talking points" that's all they hear. They don't bother to do outside research either, and just believe what they've been told. I discussed this last night with a Brother and we've both come to the conclusion that if more Americans would go out and do some research they would know not to be afraid.

^ This.

I have learned here, and with visiting mosques (yes I've done that), and speaking with muslims in my area, that I have nothing to fear from the vast majority of them. There are of course the crazy nutters within Islam and those who do with to impose it on me, but we have that type of person withinin most ideologies. I know that most muslims are not like that, I certainly wouldn't have had I not made the effort to speak with muslims, or had I pre-judged them in a tribal nature and dismissed anything they say as designed to undercut my society. I have met people who have this mentaility. I'm not making it up. Stop by paltalk social issues sometime if you have a very very thick skin and want to see some such idiots.

So no, I don't fear your typical muslim community that keeps to itself and has its moque and doesn't seek to push its rules on the rest of us non-muslims. You don't want to eat pork, I have no issue with that so long as you don't demand bacon be taken off the supermarket shelves, etc. I have even started to enjoy halal shwarma places. The meat is good!

I think t he magic of living a multi cultural society as I do, is that radical followers of ANY religion or ideology tend to get diluted and their offspring be more moderate and able to mesh with society at large. I think multiculturalism kills bigotry, because bigotry thrives on ignorance and when you live and work with the outgroup it is hard to maintain that ignorance. When you have muslim/black/atheist/whatever friends it is impossible to view all muslims/blacks/atheist/whatever as violent or evil.

[Pygoscelis]

How humbling to watch those families calmly and peacefully walking to their charity event in the face of that barrage of verbal insult, without retaliating or even responding in any way.
That's what I call a peaceful witness!

And that is what will turn this around.

"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous." [9:123]

Verses like that seem to be where the ridiculus "blasphemy" laws (such as in Pakistan) stem from.

It is sad how this verse gets so twisted and turned. If I am correct, it was placed in the context of war. Meaning when people are out to kill you. Not just criticize you. Is that wrong?

[Argamemnon]

^
How would you have reacted towards those protesters, if you had gone to the charity event, Argamemnon?

Personally, I think the peaceful reaction of the Muslims I saw speaks louder than any angry response I can imagine!
Would you say that peacefully ignoring the hateful verbal insults is a sign of weakness?

Hi glo, I hope you are doing well :)

First, I should mention that I haven't watched the whole video. Frankly, as soon as that woman started boasting about her sons as marines I had to stop watching, it was too frustrating for me to continue.

In answer to your question; I wouldn't have done anything if I were at that event. While I'm an emotional person I'm neither stupid nor violent. What could I have possibly said or done to change those people's minds anyway? I hope you don't think that I would hurt or attack them, obviously that wouldn't even cross my mind since that would be totally wrong according to Islamic and human principles.

I would only hurt people if I were a soldier and if I had to protect my people. And if there was absolutely no other way to stop the aggression and violence of the enemy. However, if my country was ruled by a violent leader or dictator I would not follow his orders and kill innocent people. I would prefer death over killing innocent people, regardless if they are Muslim or non-Muslim. Killing one innocent human being equals killing all mankind. Also, there is a hadith which says that if a Muslim kills an innocent non-Muslim living in Muslim lands, he will never smell Paradise (something along those lines). Does this not show us how bad it is to hurt or kill any of God's Creation??? Everything - including nature and animals- and everyone (all humans) belong to Allah, The Most Merciful.

In my view, people like Khadaffi and Mubarak are no different than George Bush or Tony Blair; oppressors are oppressors regardless of their religion. I think you will agree with me that if we asked Khadaffi why he is doing what he is doing, he would simply reply that he "only wants peace", which reminds me of this beautiful verse in the glorious Qur'an:

"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only"

Peace, Salam :)

[Argamemnon]

And that is what will turn this around.



Verses like that seem to be where the ridiculus "blasphemy" laws (such as in Pakistan) stem from.

It is sad how this verse gets so twisted and turned. If I am correct, it was placed in the context of war. Meaning when people are out to kill you. Not just criticize you. Is that wrong?

Please don't assume that people who call themselves "Muslim" are in reality what they claim to be. Is Mubarak a Muslim, or Ghadaffi? What about Saddam Hoessein was he "Muslim"? Muslims are human and they can do many bad things, BUT their actions or words should not turn you gainst the religion of Islam. Islam is the truth, while Muslims are only human...

[nuub]

If Muslims are "waging wars all over the world" then why are Muslim lands under occupation and our natural resources plundered by kafir westerners? Why are dictators being installed to serve western interests? Apparently we are not fighting hard enough?

Why are western states conducting overt and covert operations to topple our governments or to assassinate our leaders and scientists? Why are western states always meddling in our internal affairs???

Did it ever occur to you that the opposite might be the case; that the West is waging wars against Islam and/or to plunder other nations' natural resources, both of which are crimes against humanity??


"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only!" [Verse 2:11]

Although a lot of this is true, I think the issue goes beyond that. Western society has evolved into a secular self-satisfying society and the message of Islam is obviously at odds with that. I guess what I'm saying although many Muslim countries are coming "under attack" so to speak that's not even the most worrying thing. It's a war of the minds(ideas) more than anything else.

[truthseeker63]

I believe that the Secular West is at war with Islam.

[Argamemnon]

^ This.

I have learned here, and with visiting mosques (yes I've done that), and speaking with muslims in my area, that I have nothing to fear from the vast majority of them. There are of course the crazy nutters within Islam and those who do with to impose it on me, but we have that type of person withinin most ideologies. I know that most muslims are not like that, I certainly wouldn't have had I not made the effort to speak with muslims, or had I pre-judged them in a tribal nature and dismissed anything they say as designed to undercut my society. I have met people who have this mentaility. I'm not making it up. Stop by paltalk social issues sometime if you have a very very thick skin and want to see some such idiots.

So no, I don't fear your typical muslim community that keeps to itself and has its moque and doesn't seek to push its rules on the rest of us non-muslims. You don't want to eat pork, I have no issue with that so long as you don't demand bacon be taken off the supermarket shelves, etc. I have even started to enjoy halal shwarma places. The meat is good!

I think t he magic of living a multi cultural society as I do, is that radical followers of ANY religion or ideology tend to get diluted and their offspring be more moderate and able to mesh with society at large. I think multiculturalism kills bigotry, because bigotry thrives on ignorance and when you live and work with the outgroup it is hard to maintain that ignorance. When you have muslim/black/atheist/whatever friends it is impossible to view all muslims/blacks/atheist/whatever as violent or evil.

Most of my friends have always been non-Muslim since I live in a small town.. I still have two non-Muslim friends, they are good people.

[glo]

Hi glo, I hope you are doing well :)

I am fine, thanks. I hope you are good too.

First, I should mention that I haven't watched the whole video. Frankly, as soon as that woman started boasting about her sons as marines I had to stop watching, it was too frustrating for me to continue.

I can understand that. Her tirade was particularly hard to stomach!

In answer to your question; I wouldn't have done anything if I were at that event. While I'm an emotional person I'm neither stupid nor violent. What could I have possibly said or done to change those people's minds anyway? I hope you don't think that I would hurt or attack them, obviously that wouldn't even cross my mind since that would be totally wrong according to Islamic and human principles.

I never imagined that you would. That's why your comment "However, it warns us to be prepared and strong against those who are planning to attack or are hostile. And if necessary we have to fight them." caught my eye. I thought it sounded out of character for you, as I read it to mean Muslims should fight against those protesters. I might have misunderstood your meaning.

In my view, people like Khadaffi and Mubarak are no different than George Bush or Tony Blair; oppressors are oppressors regardless of their religion. I think you will agree with me that if we asked Khadaffi why he is doing what he is doing, he would simply reply that he "only wants peace", which reminds me of this beautiful verse in the glorious Qur'an:

Isn't it the sad truth that there will always be those who strive for power for their own gain.
My husband says "Scum rises to the top"! :D

"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only"
Peace, Salam :)

Jesus/Isa said 'Blessed are the peacemakers'. :)

[Argamemnon]

I never imagined that you would. That's why your comment "However, it warns us to be prepared and strong against those who are planning to attack or are hostile. And if necessary we have to fight them." caught my eye. I thought it sounded out of character for you, as I read it to mean Muslims should fight against those protesters. I might have misunderstood your meaning.. :)

but how could you think that glo? lol :)

fighting can only be done by states/armies and only to defend and stop oppression and human suffering. I think I would only fight if those protestors attacked me or tried to kill me.. the objective is never to hurt or kill people, but to end aggression or oppression and save human lives. Fighting is a last resort.

Your husband is right by the way, that's so true. Scum are often respected while victims are blamed and shamed and humiliated in many countries across the world...

Peace :)

[GuestFellow]

Salaam

I think there is an effort to tarnish Islam and Muslims. This will help gain mass support for the wars. In some European countries there is an effort to secularise Muslims and create confusion and division within the Muslim communities.

[Perseveranze]

1400 YEARS... that is not ancient.

But, zIslam has destroyed ancient. Is that any consolation?

The Persian Empire... The Egyptian Empire.

Imagine what those would look like today?

Egypt probably would have went to the Moon 1000 years ago.

But, the Arabs invaded.

Peace,

Haters are going to hate I guess ;D Doubt anyone would be anywhere near the moon right now if it wasn't for Islam, do some real history check. Oh wait, hating can blind you.

[Pygoscelis]

Please don't assume that people who call themselves "Muslim" are in reality what they claim to be. Is Mubarak a Muslim, or Ghadaffi? What about Saddam Hoessein was he "Muslim"? Muslims are human and they can do many bad things, BUT their actions or words should not turn you gainst the religion of Islam. Islam is the truth, while Muslims are only human...

Very well put. And the same goes for Christians, Jews, Atheists, black people, white people, and all other "groups"

[Pygoscelis]

Peace,

Haters are going to hate I guess ;D Doubt anyone would be anywhere near the moon right now if it wasn't for Islam, do some real history check. Oh wait, hating can blind you.

And isn't it ironic how these people who push hate speech against muslims, quote their numbers in arabic numerals and use algebra? :

I don't think they realize they are using something created by those they hate, to support their hate for them.

It is no secret here that I have my issues with Islam as an ideology. But I will stand by muslim people, as they are people just like everybody else and deserve respect and should not be demonized as many in the west are doing.

[Argamemnon]

Very well put. And the same goes for Christians, Jews, Atheists, black people, white people, and all other "groups"

Jews are sometimes criticized very harshly in the Qur'an, which is sadly often misunderstood by some Muslims as well as non-Muslims. These verses are referring to those Jews who did many bad things. By no means does this mean that every single Jew is "evil". Labling an entire group of people or race as evil is obviously absurd and inhumane and against the teachings of Islam.

[MartyrX]

Jews are sometimes criticized very harshly in the Qur'an, which is sadly often misunderstood by some Muslims as well as non-Muslims. These verses are referring to those Jews who did many bad things. By no means does this mean that every single Jew is "evil". Labling an entire group of people or race as evil is obviously absurd and inhumane and against the teachings of Islam.

That is very true. We have to remember that we need to respect and love everyone that believes.

[Argamemnon]

We have to remember that we need to respect and love everyone that believes.

Even if they don't believe in anything we have to treat people well (as long as they don't oppress or attack us), we can do business with them and have normal human interactions. A true Muslim is extremely merciful and just, though at the same time very strong and determined in case of self-defence.

[MartyrX]

Even if they don't believe in anything we have to treat people well (as long as they don't oppress or attack us), we can do business with them and have normal human interactions. A true Muslim is extremely merciful and just, though at the same time very strong and determined in case of self-defence.

Yes of course. That is what I should of put.

[KAding]

There is no war of the 'West' against 'Islam', just like 'Islam' is not at war with the 'West'.

Some Westerners are fighting some Muslims however, and vice versa.

And some Westerners consider Islam to be a dangerous and aggressive ideology, just like some Muslims consider Western ideas such as secularism/Christianity/liberalism a dangerous assault on their beliefs.

[جوري]

There is no war of the 'West' against 'Islam', just like 'Islam' is not at war with the 'West'.

Some Westerners are fighting some Muslims however, and vice versa.

And some Westerners consider Islam to be a dangerous and aggressive ideology, just like some Muslims consider Western ideas such as secularism/Christianity/liberalism a dangerous assault on their beliefs.

what a pedestrian analysis of what is going on in the world around you.. we're on the brink of world war three.. come out from under the rock and look at the tidal changes going on all over the middle east and the western ideological and physical wars going on against it..

[KAding]

what a pedestrian analysis of what is going on in the world around you.. we're on the brink of world war three.. come out from under the rock and look at the tidal changes going on all over the middle east and the western ideological and physical wars going on against it..

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq. That didn't start as a war on Islam and it still isn't a war on Islam. At best it can be described as the West supporting some Muslims over other Muslims. Considering the fact the US has perfectly normal and friendly relations with the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries just shows to me that this isn't a "War on Islam". That simply would not be possible if hate of Islam were driving US foreign policy.

I'm not sure what you mean with "ideological wars". Perhaps you could elaborate? The idea of ideologies competing with each other can hardly be described as a state of war.

[Argamemnon]

some Westerners consider Islam to be a dangerous and aggressive ideology

Don't you consider this a little ironic given that Western states have been attacking and plundering other nations for hundreds of years and are still doing it?

Anyway, I don't mind secularizm/liberalism in other countries because it's none of our business, but they should stop trying to export these, especially by force. Though, usually it's done by shaming and blaming and demonizing all Muslims and everything relating to Islam.

[Argamemnon]

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq.

Western states are also killing Muslim scientists in Iran and are threatening to attack this nation. In Iraq they have killed hundreds of leading Iraqi scientists. To be perfectly honest, western states are monsters, which is rather an understatement if you ask me. They don't even need to wage direct wars when there are many other aggressive and less aggressive methods at their disposal. They also control the UN and all other so-called "International" organizations so no need to attack every single country they dislike.

[Argamemnon]

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq.

How come you forgot Palestine, who exactly are protecting this illegal and aggressive entity? The West is also at war with Afghanistan and even Pakistan, though thank God the latter has nuclear weapons.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Personally, I believe that the greatest danger that Muslims face is not from yet-to-be-believers but rather from other Muslims. Or to put it more accurately, from other people who profess to be Muslims.

The efforts of the so-called West (West is actually east to Japan, for example) to secularize Islam is nothing compared to the damage done by so-called Muslims to reform Islam. Call me old-fashioned or orthodox or whatever, but I am totally opposed to the idea that mere mortals can do anything to improve on what Allah has created. I have no exact data on whether the so-called West is actually waging war on Islam or otherwise but I consider it the duty of every right-thinking Muslim to wage total war on those who seek to subvert Islam under the guise of modernization.

Just because they cannot find the answer does not mean that the truth is not there in Islam. It just simply means that they have closed their heart to Nur Hidayah.

[Argamemnon]

Call me old-fashioned or orthodox or whatever, but I am totally opposed to the idea that mere mortals can do anything to improve on what Allah has created. I have no exact data on whether the so-called West is actually waging war on Islam or otherwise but I consider it the duty of every right-thinking Muslim to wage total war on those who seek to subvert Islam under the guise of modernization.

That depends on your definition of modernization of course. Islam has the ability to adapt to all ages and changes because it's the truth revealed by Allah. If modernization means changing the fundamentals of Islam (to please others or for whatever reason), then no. If modernization means correcting wrong beliefs and traditions, which were actually never part of Islam in the first place, but added later (which most Muslims are unaware of), then yes. But that's a seperate topic altogether.

[Pygoscelis]

Don't you consider this a little ironic given that Western states have been attacking and plundering other nations for hundreds of years and are still doing it?

This is a fair point, however I would argue it is the power imbalance that leads to this and not anything to do with ideology. The strong exploit the weak. This is how it has always been, going back to the Brittish Empire, The Roman Empire, The Egyptian and Babylonian Empires.

The overall culture and values of the modern west actually work against this today. There are plenty of westerners screaming out against their own leaders and deploring the actions that have taken place in Iraq and Afghanistan (I am but one of millions of them) and the values of hte west allow them to speak and even organize political forces (which do usually fail due to the power nad influence of the rich & elite). The people here are mostly with you, when they know the facts. The problem is a hyperactive propaganda machine and hte illusion of true democracy in the west.

[Pygoscelis]

we're on the brink of world war three..

No we're really not. And we won't be until two major world powers come into violent opposition. Places like Egypt and Libya, though I feel for the citizens, simply are not powerful enough to matter at that level (neither is Canada - though its alliance with the US and Europe sets it apart form those two).

Now, if Russia or China decide to take one side of a civil war in the middle east and the US or India or Europe takes another, then it could lead us into another cold war and truly put us on the brink of world war three. But I just don't see very strong signs of that happening yet.

As things are now, terrorism may become more severe, but world war three? Doubtful.

[Argamemnon]

This is a fair point, however I would argue it is the power imbalance that leads to this and not anything to do with ideology. The strong exploit the weak. This is how it has always been, going back to the Brittish Empire, The Roman Empire, The Egyptian and Babylonian Empires.

I agree that there is a huge power imbalance, but this does not make it right or acceptable does it? As a Muslim this way of thinking is against my core religious beliefs (the strong exploiting the weak). Even if I weren't a Muslim I still would not accept the "right" of the strong to exploit the weak as some Darwinists or evolutionists claim.

[GuestFellow]

I do believe that there will be an increase in terrorist attacks. The US government is not interested in tackling the root cause of the problem, which is its own foreign policy. I doubt the US and its allies will acknowledge their own mistakes and will continue to shift the blame to "Islamic extremism". I suspect the US will continue to use "democracy" as an excuse to invade countries for their own imperial adventure.

Blaming Islam and Muslims will result in number of domestic issues within western countries. Right wing politicians will blame Muslims in order to gain popularity and to divert attention from serious issues such as unemployment. These serious issues are unlikely to be resoled.

I'm not sure what is going to happen in the future. I think the neoconservatives will have a difficult time finding a good reason to attack Middle Eastern countries on the basis of democracy, if the protests are successful. The regimes are falling one by one. The neocons might claim that all these countries are going to be hostile to Israel.

I doubt there will be a world war three. There might be another cold war...

I wonder how the Kurdish issue might be resolved.

[marwen]

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq. That didn't start as a war on Islam and it still isn't a war on Islam. At best it can be described as the West supporting some Muslims over other Muslims. Considering the fact the US has perfectly normal and friendly relations with the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries just shows to me that this isn't a "War on Islam". That simply would not be possible if hate of Islam were driving US foreign policy.

are you serious ?!

[جوري]

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq. That didn't start as a war on Islam and it still isn't a war on Islam.

really just one war? so amidst the sea of wars waged you seem to have forgotten about Afghanistan? Do you see why it is perfectly legitimate to call your analysis pedestrian? The west can put the label of war against salted butter, it still won't change the facts of the matter any!

At best it can be described as the West supporting some Muslims over other Muslims.

Nonsense.. The west doesn't want to lose its imperialistic grip in that part of the world they've long considered their property and what a nightmare it is for them now that the people are willing to die to expunge their lands of these western instated despots!

Considering the fact the US has perfectly normal and friendly relations with the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries just shows to me that this isn't a "War on Islam". That simply would not be possible if hate of Islam were driving US foreign policy.

They have a 'normal' and 'friendly' relationship with secularized govt. and have a vested interest in keeping it so.. friendly relations with despots is obviously not proportional to friendly relations with the people.. the people have spoken and they don't want secularism nor 'friendly' relations with the west if the price is their very freedom!

I'm not sure what you mean with "ideological wars". Perhaps you could elaborate? The idea of ideologies competing with each other can hardly be described as a state of war.

What would you call it? if you recognize only swords and chariots as representative of a war state, then there is no point carrying out this conversation further!

all the best

No we're really not. And we won't be until two major world powers come into violent opposition. Places like Egypt and Libya, though I feel for the citizens, simply are not powerful enough to matter at that level (neither is Canada - though its alliance with the US and Europe sets it apart form those two).

war isn't about machinery, it is an intelligent thought.. Egypt took down the 500 million dollar bar lev line with water.. that is not the point though, since a world war three (which is inevitable) is bound to involve the entire middle east.. can machines overcome man power and gorilla warfare? I don't know we'll have to see!

Now, if Russia or China decide to take one side of a civil war in the middle east and the US or India or Europe takes another, then it could lead us into another cold war and truly put us on the brink of world war three. But I just don't see very strong signs of that happening yet.

Like I said we'll wait and see but one thing is for sure, there is no going back to the obsequiousness that once was and the people have so proven by paying with their lives..

As things are now, terrorism may become more severe, but world war three? Doubtful.

Yup.. the west will keep singing for that monster to rear its head.. question is can the west withstand more wars? they've already whittled themselves away, and the economy is notwithstanding.. it is all very amusing to watch but I definitely it is payback time decades worth of BS......

all the best

[Argamemnon]

There is one war in which the West is directly involved in the Middle East and that is Iraq. That didn't start as a war on Islam and it still isn't a war on Islam. At best it can be described as the West supporting some Muslims over other Muslims. Considering the fact the US has perfectly normal and friendly relations with the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries just shows to me that this isn't a "War on Islam". That simply would not be possible if hate of Islam were driving US foreign policy.

I'm not sure what you mean with "ideological wars". Perhaps you could elaborate? The idea of ideologies competing with each other can hardly be described as a state of war.

The Dutch government ACTIVELY supports Zionist aggression against Palestinians according to former prime minister Dries van Agt.

http://www.brabantsdagblad.nl/algeme...tingId=8283600

[Grace Seeker]

I believe that the Secular West is at war with Islam.

The [b]secular]/b] west is at war with religion of any kind, including Islam, but not limited to it. It is also at war with Christianity, and Hinduism and Buddhism (though for some reason a bit more tolerant there). About the only religion that secularism is willing to accept is nominalism, be something in name only, but don't actually dare to practice it.

For example, in the USA, our Constitution says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In everyday life these words are designed to simply limit the role of government with regard to establishing and regulating religion in American life. But that intent seems to have been forgotten and replaced by the non-Constitutional phrase "separation of church and state." As a result, there is now an attempt to eliminate religion from public life, and not just that which is the result of government, but some have gone so far as to suggest that there can be no introduction of religion into corporate life of privately owned companies because they engage in business in the public sphere.

Similarly, Christian pastors (and I suppose Imams in mosques as well, though I haven't heard) have been told that there are some thing that we cannot speak about from our pulpits. The suggestion is that doing so is to engage in political discourse and a violation of this non-Constitutional concept of separation of church and state. So, not only are we restricted with regard to the practice of our religion, but also there is an attempt to control free speech.When a Constitutional right can be perverted in order to be used to eliminate the very thing that it is meant to guarantee, I call that a war on the whole concept of religion, not just Islam.

[Khalil_Allah]

Be calm, people. Even when Rasoolullah saws was facing imminent defeat in Madinah ghazwah khandaq, he still had good news for the believers.
Rasoolullah and al-Qur'an al-Kareem promise victory to the believers in death and in life. This is a promise from Allah. He created Islam and its supporters and its enemies, and He knows best.
Worry about being a believer, and seeking the favor of Allah. Strengthen your relationship with Allah by prayer and duaa. Be sincere and be thorough in these two things. When you seek the company of others, go to your family and seek the favor of Allah together. Outside of your family, you should first seek others who you admire for their iman. You can find good candidates in the front line at fajr. And with your group, you strive to seek the favor of Allah. This is the way of the Messenger and those before him. And as you see from their stories, you can spend your whole life trying to accomplish this.And you will get tests from Allah, and you will win some and lose some.
For these people, they are promised the victory. Madinah was getting hammered day in and day out for weeks from all the surrounding tribes. And it looked really bad, and the Muslims were greatly outnumbered. But what happened? Victory of Allah. The enemies packed up and left and the believers went on to defeat every single one of them.
Be calm when you read all these terrible news reports and remember that nothing happens without the will of Allah, because He created everything and He is powerful over all things. SubhanAllah!:shade:

[Grace Seeker]

Be calm, people. Even when Rasoolullah saws was facing imminent defeat in Madinah ghazwah khandaq, he still had good news for the believers.
Rasoolullah and al-Qur'an al-Kareem promise victory to the believers in death and in life. This is a promise from Allah. He created Islam and its supporters and its enemies, and He knows best.


Worry about being a believer, and seeking the favor of Allah. Strengthen your relationship with Allah by prayer and duaa. Be sincere and be thorough in these two things.

This ^ is a good word whatever faith one has.

"The greedy stir up conflict, but those who trust in the LORD will prosper." Proverbs 28:25 </p>

Be calm when you read all these terrible news reports and remember that nothing happens without the will of Allah, because He created everything and He is powerful over all things. SubhanAllah!

Does this even apply to that terrible scene in the YouTube video? I'm hoping that we can both say YES, even as we seek to see that situation changed. At least God has used it to prompt this particular conversation.

[Argamemnon]

can machines overcome man power and gorilla warfare?

what is the distinguishing feature of this type of warfare; do gorilla's take part in it? :D

:w:

[Argamemnon]

Similarly, Christian pastors (and I suppose Imams in mosques as well, though I haven't heard) have been told that there are some thing that we cannot speak about from our pulpits. The suggestion is that doing so is to engage in political discourse and a violation of this non-Constitutional concept of separation of church and state. So, not only are we restricted with regard to the practice of our religion, but also there is an attempt to control free speech.When a Constitutional right can be perverted in order to be used to eliminate the very thing that it is meant to guarantee, I call that a war on the whole concept of religion, not just Islam.

The situation in Turkey is even worse. If you are religious you are deemed an enemy of the state, as simple as that. People who have been seen praying in the army (even in their spare time) are immediately expelled etc. Of course this has changed to some extent in the past few years, but the fanatical and dogmatic secular forces are still extremely powerful over there, as well as public support for those forces (unfortunately). Turkey is a very split society.

[جوري]

what is the distinguishing feature of this type of warfare; do gorilla's take part in it? :D

:w:

only Gorillas that wear long johns :haha:

[Grace Seeker]

The situation in Turkey is even worse. If you are religious you are deemed an enemy of the state, as simple as that. People who have been seen praying in the army (even in their spare time) are immediately expelled etc. Of course this has changed to some extent in the past few years, but the fanatical and dogmatic secular forces are still extremely powerful over there, as well as public support for those forces (unfortunately). Turkey is a very split society.

So I've heard. While I tend to agree with what Hayrünnisa Gül (the president's wife for those who haven't heard of her) said last year: “A girl cannot decide on her own to wear the headscarf at such a young age. She should decide for herself when she is old enough to do so.” I was surprised when my daughter told me that she couldn't wear a hijab as a university student. I have no doubt that she had made such a decision for herself, and find it contrary to the ideals of tolerance and the non-promotion of religion that one should be prohibited from an accepted religious practice.

I had not heard of anyone being expelled from the army for praying, but I don't doubt that it may have happened. It all seems very strange to me. The opposite of the sort of tolerance that "secularlism" claims for itself.

[Pygoscelis]

I had not heard of anyone being expelled from the army for praying, but I don't doubt that it may have happened. It all seems very strange to me. The opposite of the sort of tolerance that "secularlism" claims for itself.

This is where the separation of church and state (secularism) would benefit the religious people. Secularism doesn't mean anti-free-religion, and such a stance, ie outlawing any religion would oppose secularism. Religious folks should hopefully come to see this an stop attempting to erode the wall of separation of church and state. Becasue that very wall may be their refuge if things turn the other way too strongly.

I have often tried to point this out to people in the USA who push for Christian influence and dominance in laws, the ten commandments in court rooms, etc. These people do not seem to realize that by cutting away at the wall of separation between church and state they may be paving the way for OTHER religions (or anti-religion) to go through the opening they create and supress them.

[GuestFellow]

This is where the separation of church and state (secularism) would benefit the religious people. Secularism doesn't mean anti-free-religion,

Secularism can lead to anti-religion. Secularism does promote separation of Church and State but it has lead or contributed to religious symbols being banned (e.g. cross, hijab, kirpan, etc).

I doubt we have seen the full effect of secularism.

[جوري]

secularism is another religion, like atheism and humanism .. human like to invent things to adore.. things of a lower common denominator because they can't compass God!

:w:

[GuestFellow]

secularism is another religion, like atheism and humanism .. human like to invent things to adore.. things of a lower common denominator because they can't compass God!

:w:

:sl:

Which is why some atheists reject God and look for other explanations such as aliens...

[Ali Mujahidin]

In Islam, as far as I have found out, there is no separation of the Church and the State. There is no demarcation between religious activities and secular activities. Ad din ul Islam. Islam is a complete way of life. That means Islam encompasses all aspects of life, both private and public. Politics is as much a part of religious practice just as religious practice is as much a part of politics, for example. To say that Islam has got nothing to do with politics is the same as saying Allah knows nothing about politics, which is impossible since Allah knows everything.

More to the point, politics is the way we organize our relationship with other people, either as individuals or as nations. There is no way that we can have proper relationships if our relationships are not formed according to the teachings of Islam. So, to me, secularism only has meaning for those people who deny the truth that Allah, their Creator, knows best what is the most successful way to live.

[Aprender]

I thought this video was somewhat interesting. The person who uploaded it won't allow embedding but here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqI0Awu66H0

[Trumble]

More to the point, politics is the way we organize our relationship with other people, either as individuals or as nations. There is no way that we can have proper relationships if our relationships are not formed according to the teachings of Islam. So, to me, secularism only has meaning for those people who deny the truth that Allah, their Creator, knows best what is the most successful way to live.

We are perhaps more in 'comparative religion' than 'world affairs' here, but 'those people' simply do not exist. Very few would deny that a God which they know to exist knows 'what's best'!

What you actually have are two main groups. The first are those who don't believe God exists and therefore are hence not 'denying' anything about what such a God may or may not know. The second group (which, taken as a whole is actually a significant majority of the world's population!) disagree about what, exactly, it is that God DOES know is best. It is actually to accommodate these religious differences that secularism exists. It just accepts that what many choose to present as 'fact' is invariably in reality opinion or belief, even if some beliefs are widely or even universally held, and attempts to organize society on grounds the majority can agree on.

[Ali Mujahidin]

We are perhaps more in 'comparative religion' than 'world affairs' here, but 'those people' simply do not exist. Very few would deny that a God which they know to exist knows 'what's best'!

From my personal experience, 'those people' are very real and very alive. They have decided that God is only suitable for confinement to places of religious worship and must be referred to, if at all, in the context of religious activities. They treat God, more or less, like an old, senile person who is relegated to the honorary position of chairman of the board who has got no authority whatsoever in the actual running of daily affairs. In the conduct of, say, politics and business, they worship other deities like 'democracy' and 'capitalism'. I am not saying that Islam is contrary to the concept of 'democracy' or that Islam is against 'capitalism'. What I am saying is that 'those people' define 'democracy' and 'capitalism' on the go, according the whims and fancies of expediency.

Perhaps you have met such people, too.

[Pygoscelis]

So, to me, secularism only has meaning for those people who deny the truth that Allah, their Creator, knows best what is the most successful way to live.

If you push for theocracy under your religion, then you really leave no valid ground to stand against an anti-religious state. If you bring down that wall you can't then use it as a shield. If you demand theocracy you have no right to complain when your religion is banned. Pretty simple really.

[Ali Mujahidin]

If you push for theocracy under your religion, then you really leave no valid ground to stand against an anti-religious state. If you bring down that wall you can't then use it as a shield. If you demand theocracy you have no right to complain when your religion is banned. Pretty simple really.

I am sorry but you lost me there.

Why should I push for a theocracy or, for that matter, any other flavor of 'cracy' or 'crazy', as the case might be? The way I understand it, Islam does not need to be re-branded. Also I do not see any need for a referendum or a revolution to install an Islamic state. First and foremost, you must be convinced that Islam is your chosen way of life and you must be convinced that it is the right choice. Then you do your humanly best to live as a Muslim, in the full sense of the word. The next step is to involve your family, then your neighbors and so on and so forth. There is no compulsion in Islam. As the numbers grow, Insha Allah, the Islamic state will come into existence by itself.

Pretty simple really, isn't it?

[جوري]

We have already discussed ad infinitum on this very board that an Islamic state isn't a theocracy rather a shura system.. and given the definition of theocracy also at great length .. makes you wonder if any of these people read anything besides their own words? how tribal!

[GuestFellow]

I thought this video was somewhat interesting. The person who uploaded it won't allow embedding but here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqI0Awu66H0

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA...

^That is all I can hear.

On a serious note, I got a headache from listening to her. She is like hyperactive version of Wafa Sultan.

How on Earth do these people reach influential positions?

[Trumble]

From my personal experience, 'those people' are very real and very alive. They have decided that God is only suitable for confinement to places of religious worship and must be referred to, if at all, in the context of religious activities. They treat God, more or less, like an old, senile person who is relegated to the honorary position of chairman of the board who has got no authority whatsoever in the actual running of daily affairs. In the conduct of, say, politics and business, they worship other deities like 'democracy' and 'capitalism'. I am not saying that Islam is contrary to the concept of 'democracy' or that Islam is against 'capitalism'. What I am saying is that 'those people' define 'democracy' and 'capitalism' on the go, according the whims and fancies of expediency.

Perhaps you have met such people, too.

Possibly.. perhaps our difference of opinion is less than my previous might suggest. I just wonder if those that "decided that God is only suitable for confinement to places of religious worship and must be referred to, if at all, in the context of religious activities" really do believe in the way you do. There is so much pressure these days for politicians in particular to conform, and to do that they almost have to perform a religious role. In the UK, perhaps, a declared atheist might still become Prime Minister, but it's inconceivable these days that one could become President of the United States, for example.




@ Guestfellow,

Every time I see that darned sig pic of yours I get hungry! :p

[Pygoscelis]

ThisOldMan, perhaps I misread:

In Islam, as far as I have found out, there is no separation of the Church and the State. There is no demarcation between religious activities and secular activities.

There is no way that we can have proper relationships if our relationships are not formed according to the teachings of Islam.

It just looks a lot to me like a call for theocracy (knocking down of the wall between church and sate).

Especially when written immediately after my call for separation of church and state and my pointing out how this protects church as much as it does state.