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truthseeker63
02-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Since in Islam Jesus was a Human Prophet and he had his Mother Mary's DNA would Jesus also be a descendant of Adam/Eve Im asking this because of this verse Jesus's creation from the dust is like Adam ?

Quran, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." 3:59
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MustafaMc
02-27-2011, 08:58 PM
There is no evidence that Jesus (as) shared any of Mary's DNA. If Jesus (as) was born without a biological father as I believe, then it as also most likely that Allah (swt) created him straight away in toto in Mary's womb because the only other alternative is that Allah (swt) created a sperm that united with one of Mary's eggs. I actually discussed this concept in the OP of this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1409315
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aadil77
02-27-2011, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by truthseeker63
Since in Islam Jesus was a Human Prophet and he had his Mother Mary's DNA would Jesus also be a descendant of Adam/Eve Im asking this because of this verse Jesus's creation from the dust is like Adam ?

Quran, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." 3:59
The verse is a response to those who claim prophet Jesus is the begotten son of god, it shows how he like prophet adam was created out of nothing
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Woodrow
02-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
There is no evidence that Jesus (as) shared any of Mary's DNA. If Jesus (as) was born without a biological father as I believe, then it as also most likely that Allah (swt) created him straight away in toto in Mary's womb because the only other alternative is that Allah (swt) created a sperm that united with one of Mary's eggs. I actually discussed this concept in the OP of this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1409315
That is the only feasible explanation I can see that would be in accordance with the Qur'an and proven scientific fact. Isa(as) had to have been a new creation and not a descendant from Adam(ra)

some reasons,

1. He could not have any ancestral male DNA as then the birth would not have been a true virgin birth but rather some form of artificial insemination. the Qur'an tells us it was a virgin birth.

2. If it was parthenogenesis a virgin birth resulting from spontaneous development of one of Mary's egg cells, he would have only her DNA and would have been female.
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MustafaMc
02-27-2011, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
That is the only feasible explanation I can see that would be in accordance with the Qur'an and proven scientific fact. Isa(as) had to have been a new creation and not a descendant from Adam(ra).
So from our perspective Mary (as) was the surrogate mother, rather than biological mother, of Jesus (as). From your Catholic background do you have any thoughts on 'Hail Mary, Mother of God...'?
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Woodrow
02-28-2011, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
So from our perspective Mary (as) was the surrogate mother, rather than biological mother, of Jesus (as). From your Catholic background do you have any thoughts on 'Hail Mary, Mother of God...'?
:sl: Akhi Mustafa,

In Catholicism the evolution of Mary veneration is quite interesting. In early church doctrine it seems she had very little of a role and reading thinking back it was like she was more of a surogate mother and not of a biological Mother. It was explained that Mary had to Marry Joseph so that Isa(as) would fulfill the prophecy of having been from the house of David. Yet that had puzzled me as Mary her self was from the house of David.

The full blast Mary veneration came into being in 1858 with the visions seen by Bernadette at Lourdes. It reached it's peak with Fatima in 1917.

It was during these periods of time when the Church dogma came about that Mary remained a virgin and had no other children. Mary was born without sin and Mary ascended directly into heaven without an earthly death.
Add to this we have her being crowned the Queen of heaven and being an intercessor for humans. Mary is actually being elevated from initially being the Surrogate Mother of Jesus to being the Mother of God to Being the Queen of heaven and being able to intercede for human's and gain forgiveness of sins for us. Mary is becoming very similar to the Protestant view of Jesus. If the trend continues the Trinity may eventually become a Quadrangle unless they fire the Holy Ghost who does not seem to have much of a job in Catholicism.

Hmmm, a thought just hit me. Wonder where I read that Christians were accused of worshiping Mary?
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MustafaMc
02-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
It was explained that Mary had to Marry Joseph so that Isa(as) would fulfill the prophecy of having been from the house of David.
What puzzles me about Jesus' (as) parentage according to the Bible is Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli The American Standard version has "being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph" If the Bible is the inspired Word of God, how can there be any supposition in the parentage of Jesus (as) particularly when it disagrees with the doctrine of the virgin birth?
The full blast Mary veneration came into being in 1858 with the visions seen by Bernadette at Lourdes. It reached it's peak with Fatima in 1917.
What do you think the visions or apparitions were manifestations of? Could they have been jinn?
It was during these periods of time when the Church dogma came about that Mary remained a virgin and had no other children. Mary was born without sin and Mary ascended directly into heaven without an earthly death.
It was only recently that I learned that the "Immaculate Conception" applied to Mary meaning that she was born without Original Sin so that she could be the Mother of God, else the sin of Adam would pass down to God. It seems that church doctrine has evolved to allow for a lot of things that do not make sense, neither are they supported by the Bible.
Add to this we have her being crowned the Queen of heaven and being an intercessor for humans. Mary is actually being elevated from initially being the Surrogate Mother of Jesus to being the Mother of God to Being the Queen of heaven and being able to intercede for human's and gain forgiveness of sins for us. Mary is becoming very similar to the Protestant view of Jesus. If the trend continues the Trinity may eventually become a Quadrangle unless they fire the Holy Ghost who does not seem to have much of a job in Catholicism.

Hmmm, a thought just hit me. Wonder where I read that Christians were accused of worshiping Mary?
That is the first time I ever read or heard about Mary being the Queen of Heaven. I had thought as a protestant that having statues of the Madonna (Mary) and crucifix (Jesus (as) on the cross) were idolatry. I had a great aunt that was married to a Catholic and in their home was the only place I ever saw these two figures. I also see praying to Mary even in the role of intercessor is an act of worship reserved for Allah (swt). So your final point is that for all practical purposes the Catholics worship Jesus, Mary and the Father (in that order), but then again for their confessional they also take their priest as a god when they say in their confessional, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned..."
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Woodrow
02-28-2011, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What puzzles me about Jesus' (as) parentage according to the Bible is Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli The American Standard version has "being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph" If the Bible is the inspired Word of God, how can there be any supposition in the parentage of Jesus (as) particularly when it disagrees with the doctrine of the virgin birth?What do you think the visions or apparitions were manifestations of? Could they have been jinn?It was only recently that I learned that the "Immaculate Conception" applied to Mary meaning that she was born without Original Sin so that she could be the Mother of God, else the sin of Adam would pass down to God. It seems that church doctrine has evolved to allow for a lot of things that do not make sense, neither are they supported by the Bible.That is the first time I ever read or heard about Mary being the Queen of Heaven. I had thought as a protestant that having statues of the Madonna (Mary) and crucifix (Jesus (as) on the cross) were idolatry. I had a great aunt that was married to a Catholic and in their home was the only place I ever saw these two figures. I also see praying to Mary even in the role of intercessor is an act of worship reserved for Allah (swt). So your final point is that for all practical purposes the Catholics worship Jesus, Mary and the Father (in that order), but then again for their confessional they also take their priest as a god when they say in their confessional, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned..."
Here you are seeing first hand how Catholocism evolves with new dogma involving reverse engineering to make the past fit the present. When I was a kid the words in the confessional began with "I confess to almighty God and to you Father that I have sinned. It has been (Time length) since my last confession and I have --------Categorize what you have done, how often and sometimes even include the dates, times)" Later it became "Bless me Father for I have sinned, I confess to almighty God that I have etc, etc) I believe that the words "Father, forgive me for I have sinned....) began being the most accepted and most common form sometime in the late 1950s.

As for the visions at Lourdes and Fatima. I am convinced some of the people actually did see something and it was not all mass hysteria although for most that was probably the case. Now what was seen? In the case of Lourdes it seems possible when Bernadette first saw the woman, it could be there was actually a woman living in the cave, the woman may have been a somewhat deranged person who actually believed she was Mary. Later after it is possible the woman no longer there but Bernadette in her anticipation began entering into a fantasy world. Later when people began following Bernadette it was probably some self deception of people who could not accept the idea of a child seeing what they were not seeing. A bit of confabulation on the part of some and it soon became politically correct to be among those who saw a woman.

The 3 children at Fatima. It is more likely that the huge crowds actually saw something. Several possibilities exist a deliberate fraud perpetrated by the local government to sway the populace away from the newly forming Communist movement, a deranged person believing she was Mary, Jinn etc. Who knows. but there is no physical verification that it was Mary who was seen. This was during the era when cameras had been invented, the events had caught the attention of the media and the media was present at many of the sighting, yet none caught any pictures of Mary. It seems the reporters would have been trying hard to get photographic evidence. As far as the "Miracle of the Sun" reported. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun) Try staring at the bright sun for a few minutes (Don't try this at home kids, it will ruin your eyes) after 5-10 minutes you will see the sun doing all kinds of strange things. Plus your now burned retinas are going to see lots of strange things for a long time afterwords.
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YusufNoor
02-28-2011, 02:54 PM
:sl:

there's some great advice in Suratul Kahf:

18:18 Likewise, We awakened them (from their long deep sleep) that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said: "How long have you stayed (here)?" They said: "We have stayed (perhaps) a day or part of a day." They said: "Your Lord (Alone) knows best how long you have stayed (here). So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the town, and let him find out which is the good lawful food, and bring some of that to you. And let him be careful and let no man know of you.
the sleepers of the cave didn't know how long there were "asleep," therefore they settle on the BEST answer, Allah knows best!"

earlier in the same Surah, we read about those who make claims of which they have no knowledge:

18:4 And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."

18:5 No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters]. They utter nothing but a lie.
if we debate about things we know not, we might "utter nothing but a lie."

further on we read:

(Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth, guessing at the unseen; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few." So debate not (about their number, etc.) except with the clear proof (which We have revealed to you). And consult not any of them (people of the Scripture, Jews and Christians) about (the affair of) the people of the Cave.
out of context, it reads, "So debate not, EXCEPT with clear proof!"

just a piece of advice for myself and others.

:wa:
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Insaanah
02-28-2011, 07:36 PM
:sl:

We are all created from dust. "And of His signs is that He created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing [throughout the earth]." (Qur'an 30: 20)

Allah, doer of what He wills in accordance with His Majesty, could easily take an ovum from Maryam alayha assalaam, and say to it "Be", and thus Isa alayhi as-salaam was.

On the other hand, maybe He didn't do it that way.

The "how" of that "Be!" is not within our knowledge.

The problem with applying our worldly knowledge of genetics to this miraculous situation, is that we look for explanations that fit our worldly scientific knowledge, and think as less possible those that don't fit or are not likely to. One of my atheist lecturers used to say that Jesus (peace be upon him) couldn't have existed because a haploid person can't exist. He was applying his worldly knowledge, and did not consider as feasible anything that did not fit within that sphere of knowledge.

The reality is, that we don't know, can't even begin to guess, and it is not important for the practice of our faith to know.

This is truly one of those situations where not only Allah knows best, but only Allah knows.

:sl:
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