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Tyrion
03-03-2011, 06:41 AM
:sl: and hello everyone. :)

So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...

I should clarify my position before I go any further. I'm completely and totally Muslim, and so in no way do I think homosexual acts are okay in the eyes of God. That part is easy. The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way. In fact, the part of this that absolutely scares me the most is that non Muslims see it, and assume this is Islam. It just absolutely kills me when I see certain things (here, and in the real world) done or said by Muslims that are so obviously hateful and outside the boundaries of Islam...

Now I wanted to bring this up because I'd like to start a discussion... A discussion about the way we view homosexuals, and the way we act towards them. I know it'll be hard, but I'll ask you guys to please try and keep this civil. I think this is something we really really really need to talk about...

Here are a couple of videos that I want to share before we go any further with this. Please watch them both. (They're short :p )



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Woodrow
03-03-2011, 07:58 AM
It is quite difficult for many if not most people to keep any discussion regarding homosexuality free from emotional out bursts. Yet it is something some of us should learn to do if we are going to retain our own humanity. We may not like it, but most of us are probably going to hear more than we care to hear about it on the media. Use this thread as practice for how to handle it in real life. Perhaps a good area to begin with is to state a few rules for this thread.

1. Absolutely no name calling

2. No discussion of causes. The arguments about if it is genetic or learned behavior have been exhausted on other threads.

3. No explicit descriptions of any sexual acts. That is a violation of forum rules be it heterosexual or homosexual.

4. Act and post responsibly. Give sources for what you state as facts and if what you post is your honest opinion state that also.

5. I am going to try to keep a close eye on this thread. Stay civil this is a forum, not D day at Normandy.

Any breaking of those rules will cause a post to be deleted as OFF TOPIC
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-03-2011, 12:30 PM
wa alaykum us-salaam
I can see why it would be a bothersome to some to direct insults at such people to their faces and perhaps not to their faces aswell, but i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?

i think its best first to define and clarify some things first.

what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across :hmm:

im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
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Asiyah3
03-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
:sl: and hello everyone. :)
:wa:

So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...
Just the way I see it. Like every Muslim, obviously I 100% disapprove homosexuality. BUT we should still respect them, be kind and patient with them. Shouldn't we also make da'wah to homosexuals? Being hateful will only be driving them away from Islam.

It is equally important not to give homosexuals the impression that homosexuality is in anyway natural or "okay".

The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way.
Sadly, I think the reason some Muslims talk in this manner is to show their disapproval of homosexuality. While we should keep in mind that Allah tests each of us in a way he wishes, and this could be the test for them.

Here are a couple of videos that I want to share before we go any further with this. Please watch them both. (They're short :p )
I'm sorry I didn't watch the vid. I'm in a hurry at the moment.
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Woodrow
03-03-2011, 04:30 PM
One thing I think needs to be clarified right at the start. Feminine traits in men and masculine traits in females does not indicate homosexuality. There are many very effeminate type men who are 100% heterosexual and very many masculine women who are heterosexual.

Oddly the opposite is also true some very masculine men are homosexual a few classic examples Rock Hudson, Glenn Burke, and several famous athletes.
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Zuzubu
03-03-2011, 04:48 PM
I know that many people disagree on this, but I think that gays should live like normal people, homosexuality is a test from Allah, and who fails should either have death penalthy or something alike. Homosexuality is not Islam. Read about the people of Lut.

As Ali ibn Abi Talib stated “ Whoever willingly submits to be a partner in homosexual activity, Allah will make him the subject of the desires of women, and will make him a stoned devil in his grave until the Day of Judgment.”

and Hisham Ibn said, “ Had Allah not informed us of the sinful deeds of the people of Lut, one would never have believed that males would commit such actions together.”

It is wrong and if u are gay, then u have to maintain urself and if u cannot marry the opposite gender, then don't use ur private parts at all.
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S.Belle
03-03-2011, 05:24 PM
This is a huge issue and I am happy you made this thread bro.
Committing homosexual acts is haraam but being homosexual (and not acting upon desires) in my opinion is not haraam.

Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?


bc its discriminating if you hate the act then that is fine but to hate a person is not.
Like slavery for example I hate the act of how African Americans use to be slaves in America but that does not mean that I hate Caucasians.
or I hate the act of some men abusing and hitting their wives but I dont hate men.
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Perseveranze
03-03-2011, 05:35 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I agree with you, hate is one thing, I mean we can all hate, people hate the way some Muslims do things, people hate the way some Non-muslim do things etc. However, there's a fine line between hating something and letting Shaitan incite that hate and use it to make you commit sin.

Hate is never a good thing, it will just lead to more hate and before you know it, you'll end up regretting. You don't have to mix with them, or in any way encourage them, just ignore them and let them get on with their business and you with your own.

Take the example of the Prophet(pbuh) and look at what he did in different situations. If we all acted on our hate, there would never be any peace on Earth.

"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
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Woodrow
03-03-2011, 07:00 PM
One danger of hatred when it becomes directed towards the person and not the act is it results in hatred of everybody that may have similar traits even if they never commit any of the acts.

A good example is heterosexual, effeminate looking teenage boys, they are often the brunt of attacks by those who hate gays, Because they look feminine some gay bashers assume they are gay.

A good guide is to hate the act, not the person and in that way you will avoid harming some who who are not what you are assuming.
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Tyrion
03-03-2011, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
The same thing that's wrong with hating anyone. As others here have mentioned, we can hate the act but not the person. Sadly, this just doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of Muslims, and we seem to forget the general spirit of Islam...

Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across

im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
Watch the videos please, they should clarify my position and let you know where I'm coming from. :p



Oh, and thanks for responding and keeping the thread civil so far everyone. Keep the posts coming. :)
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GuestFellow
03-03-2011, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
:sl: and hello everyone. :)
:wa: ^_^

So recently I've been thinking a lot about Homosexuality in religion, and the way certain religious people treat or talk about homosexuals. I remember just recently in a thread here, things got pretty nasty when a few members started going off on hateful diatribes against people who are gay, and it just really got me thinking...
From my experience many Muslims are completely ignorant about this topic.

I should clarify my position before I go any further. I'm completely and totally Muslim, and so in no way do I think homosexual acts are okay in the eyes of God. That part is easy. The part that bothers me though is when I see Muslims go out of their way to express how much they hate these people. Last time I checked, a Muslim shouldn't do that... But the fact that it's so incredibly common is what really disturbs me. What happened to mercy? To compassion? Dehumanizing these people doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction, and it sure isn't the Muslim way. In fact, the part of this that absolutely scares me the most is that non Muslims see it, and assume this is Islam. It just absolutely kills me when I see certain things (here, and in the real world) done or said by Muslims that are so obviously hateful and outside the boundaries of Islam...
Masculinity. This is the main issue. Many people, including Muslims and non-Muslims believe that a man that behaves femininely is homosexual. This is not true because there are homosexual men that behave in a masculine manner. Whether someone is homosexual is not the main issue. The issue is whether they have engaged in an sexual act (sodomy). Sodomy can occur between men and women. This is the sin and most Muslims from my experience do not know this.

There are some men that react strongly to homosexuality to the extent where they commit an assault, battery, etc. Sometimes, I think these men want to show how masculine they are or portray their disapproval.

Therefore, some Muslims direct their hatred towards homosexuals or those that are perceived to be homosexuals because they are ignorant about Islam's stance on homosexuality and sometimes to show their disapproval of homosexuality.

Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
wa alaykum us-salaam
I can see why it would be a bothersome to some to direct insults at such people to their faces and perhaps not to their faces aswell, but i don't see whats so wrong about actually hating them. whats so wrong about hating/disliking them?
It depends on what we hate/dislike. Muslims hate the sin, such as fornication, adultery and homosexuality but we cannot divert that hatred towards the person that committed the sin.

Only the judiciary can punish those that committed these offences. The general public cannot take the law into their own hands.


what is your personal definition of showing mercy, etc and why do you personally think that its important to show them mercy? those questions aren't meant to be as controversial as they come across :hmm:

im not sure what you mean by hatefulness and dehumanization? care to elaborate?
I think he means to treat them like human beings. Some gay men or men that behave femininely are mocked, beaten up, raped and even killed.

I can show you some examples but the content might be inappropriate for this forum due to their extreme nature.
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karima
03-03-2011, 11:39 PM
salam aleikum

i think gay people should be living as they wih and do whatever they want. they are humans too and if they love their own kind, it is up to them.

It is up to allah (swt) to judge people, not humans.
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Tyrion
03-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
:wa: ^_^



From my experience many Muslims are completely ignorant about this topic.
It definitely seems like this is the case for most.



Masculinity. This is the main issue. Many people, including Muslims and non-Muslims believe that a man that behaves femininely is homosexual. This is not true because there are homosexual men that behave in a masculine manner. Whether someone is homosexual is not the main issue. The issue is whether they have engaged in an sexual act (sodomy). Sodomy can occur between men and women. This is the sin and most Muslims from my experience do not know this.

There are some men that react strongly to homosexuality to the extent where they commit an assault, battery, etc. Sometimes, it think these men want to show how masculine they are or portray their disapproval.

Therefore, some Muslims direct their hatred towards homosexuals or those that are perceived to be homosexuals because they are ignorant about Islam's stance on homosexuality and sometimes to show their disapproval of homosexuality.



It depends on what we hate/dislike. Muslims hate the sin, such as fornication, adultery and homosexuality but we cannot divert that hatred towards the person that committed the sin.

Only the judiciary can punish those that committed these offences. The general public cannot take the law into their own hands.

While I agree that our concept of masculinity is one of the problems, I don't think its the main one. Like you mentioned earlier, its ignorance that is the bigger problem, and it's that ignorance that leads to hatred and inappropriate behavior...

I think he means to treat them like human beings. Some gay men or men that behave femininely are mocked, beaten up, raped and even killed.

I can show you some examples but the content might be inappropriate for this forum due to their extreme nature.
Yeah, the point is to stop the hate and treat people like people. I hope Ummu Sufyan responds soon, I'm interested in her response to all this :p
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Argamemnon
03-05-2011, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by karima
salam aleikum

i think gay people should be living as they wih and do whatever they want. they are humans too and if they love their own kind, it is up to them.

It is up to allah (swt) to judge people, not humans.
^^ This.

There will always be sinners.
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GuestFellow
03-05-2011, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by karima
salam aleikum

i think gay people should be living as they wih and do whatever they want. they are humans too and if they love their own kind, it is up to them.

It is up to allah (swt) to judge people, not humans.
:wa:

I disagree. We are not judging people. People of the same gender are not allowed to engage in a sexual relationship. This is a serious sin.
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Muhaba
03-05-2011, 01:40 PM
basically, homosexuality is forbidden in islam and is considered a crime, punishible by death. the punishement ofcourse is to be given by the court in a muslim country, if it is proven that someone was involved in homosexual act. if a person is nonmuslim in a nonmuslim country, you can preach to them in a nice way that homosexuality is not normal, against God's religion, etc.
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karima
03-05-2011, 03:31 PM
sure it is a sin. But as Writer is saying in a nonmuslim country we can only tell them that its not allowed in gods religion, other than that, i dont think we can decide for them how they should live. As i said before they are humans to and have their rights to. I would never be a friend of them. But i strongly believe that they should have their rights to. We live in 2011 and there should be room for everyone.
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GuestFellow
03-05-2011, 04:04 PM
^ Salaam,

What rights are you referring to?
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glo
03-05-2011, 04:15 PM
^
Human Rights.

Here in the UK they are as follows:

What are your Human Rights?
The rights stated in The Human Rights Act 1998 are as follows:

The right to life

The right to be free from torture and treatment of a degrading nature

To be free from slavery and labour that is forced and not of free will

The right to freedom and liberty

The right to have a fair trial in the event of criminal accusation

That if you do something that later becomes deemed a crime, that you will not be punished if it is criminalised after the event

The right to have your private and family life respected

The right to free thought, conscience and religion and the right to freely express your personal beliefs

Freedom of expression

The right of freedom of assembly and association

The right to get married and to start a family if you wish

The right not to be discriminated against in regards to any of these rights or freedoms

The right to enjoy your property in peace

The right to be educated

The right to vote (participate in free elections)

The right not to be sentenced to death (freedom from the death penalty)
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/human-rights/human-rights.htm
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karima
03-05-2011, 04:32 PM
the right to experience, love, live their lifes as they want to without being threaded, and have their own opinions.
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karima
03-05-2011, 04:38 PM
we have to remember that we dont have a khilafa and that we live in the western world. And in the western world we will meet all kind of people with different belives and ideolygy. There should be a room for them to.
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Woodrow
03-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by karima
salam aleikum

i think gay people should be living as they wih and do whatever they want. they are humans too and if they love their own kind, it is up to them.

It is up to allah (swt) to judge people, not humans.
The problem is that we are only permitted to have relations with who we are married to. The Qur'an is very explicit about who we may marry and we are not permitted to marry a person of the same gender. Any homosexual relationships are therefore not permitted. Although it must be a very difficult life to live, it is no different from heterosexual people who desire to marry, but are each forbidden to each other.
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karima
03-06-2011, 01:28 AM
salam aleikum

yes if you are a muslim, we are only allowed to be with a one if we are married and not allowed to be with the same gender. i am aware of that. Im talking about non-muslims. We cant come and tell them how to live. We can advice them and thats all. And if they choose to live in sin and be with eachother we can only make dawah.
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Tyrion
03-06-2011, 01:38 AM
First off, thanks for your participation in this thread Brother Woodrow. As always, your posts are fair, balanced, full of wisdom, and greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Woodrow
The problem is that we are only permitted to have relations with who we are married to. The Qur'an is very explicit about who we may marry and we are not permitted to marry a person of the same gender. Any homosexual relationships are therefore not permitted. Although it must be a very difficult life to live, it is no different from heterosexual people who desire to marry, but are each forbidden to each other.
Yes, this is the case with Muslims, but the issue of Homosexual Muslims (Which is covered in the second video I posted) is slightly different then the issue of how Muslims deal with homosexuals in general. Since homosexual behavior isn't compatible with Islam, we're obligated to try and help Muslims who are engaged in openly sinful behavior, and we can't back down and bend the rules for them. For non Muslims though, we can be clear that Islam does not recognize homosexual unions, but we need to be careful how we conduct ourselves after that... As Hamza Yusuf said (in my first video), Non Muslims typically aren't obligated to follow our rules, so we must be very careful in how we deal with them... In both cases however, basic human respect and dignity should be preserved, and the soft/compassionate example of the Prophet Muhammad :saws1: shouldn't be abandoned.



Speaking of the videos in the original post though, has anyone viewed them? Any thoughts?
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Muhaba
03-10-2011, 02:56 PM
we must not forget the hadith which states that we should stop a wrongdoing with our hands and if that is not possible, then with our tongue (that is, oral preaching) and if that is not possible, then with our heart and that is the lowest degree of iman. stoping a wrongdoing with the heart means to hate the wrongdoing and to hate even the person who is committing the wrong doing. since you can't love a person who does some wrong on purpose (can you love someone who murdered someone. no). eventually your hate for the wrongdoing will make you leave the person committing the wrongdoing, as was done by the group of people who preached to the companiosn of sabt, those who used to fish on the day of sabbath (see commentary of Surah Al-Araf).
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manaal
03-11-2011, 04:32 AM
Sister Karima, I think this topic about Muslims being gay and thinking that it's ok thing to be.

It has already been established that Allah forbids acts of homosexuality and we all know that homosexuality is almost as old as mankind itself.

When I was a kid growing up in a conservative Asian country I never knew there was something called "being gay". These things were never discussed in public. But sadly nowadays it has been discussed so much and people are being so openly gay that it has become accaptable. Sister Karima's opinions are testament to this.

Recently England cricket team wicket keeper Steven Davies announced that he was gay. He said:
"I'm comfortable with who I am and happy to say who I am in public. This is the right time for me ... I feel it is right to be out in the open about my sexuality. If more people do it, the more acceptable it will become. That must be a good thing
WRONG!

See what''s happening? Movies like "Milk"and "The Kids are Alright" are designed to get us to sympathise with these people and accept them. And the rresult is that more and more people think it's ok to be so and succumb to their desires instead of fighting them.

I believe that people who declare themselves to be gay do have these feelings and desires of homosexuality in them. But they should fight it. For the sake of Allah and Islam they should struggle against these desires. Hollywood and secular thinking of the west has made us believe otherwise.

Masjids and madrasas have to take up this issue and talk to the Muslims about these things and make them understand that it is totally against Islam to be so. This is not happening enough. I know of marriages (Muslims) that have ended up in divorce because the guy couldn't resist his homosexuality. These people need help, and I mean real help, just like drug addicts and alcoholics they need to be taught and educated. Not shunned or despised. Life is a struggles, everybody's got problems. And if these people struggle against their feelings and become true Muslims I believe that Allah will reward them greatly.
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Tyrion
03-11-2011, 05:12 AM
:sl: :)

Originally Posted by manaal
Sister Karima, I think this topic about Muslims being gay and thinking that it's ok thing to be.
Well, I suppose we could talk about those things, but the main purpose of this thread is just for Muslims (and non Muslims) to discuss how the Muslim community views and treats homosexuals. I in no way wanted to start a debate or conversation about the ruling on homosexuality, and I doubt anyone would argue that homosexual behavior is allowed in Islam... But the issue I wanted to bring up was just the unnecessary hate that seems to exist in Muslim circles towards certain people (and not the act itself).

Originally Posted by manaal
See what''s happening? Movies like "Milk"and "The Kids are Alright" are designed to get us to sympathise with these people and accept them. And the rresult is that more and more people think it's ok to be so and succumb to their desires instead of fighting them.
Lol, those movies always make me uncomfortable... I remember having to watch a movie about a lesbian in the military back in High School, and it was just really weird watching something that I knew to be wrong being presented in a way that made it seem almost noble. :p It's a tricky situation though, since the rulings against homosexuality will only mean something to non Muslims if and only if they begin to believe in Islam. The laws of Islam are only binding on us because we are Muslims, and It's usually pointless to try and explain why we think it's wrong, since without the belief that Islam is from God, our words are empty to them...

Originally Posted by manaal
I believe that people who declare themselves to be gay do have these feelings and desires of homosexuality in them. But they should fight it. For the sake of Allah and Islam they should struggle against these desires. Hollywood and secular thinking of the west has made us believe otherwise.
Yeah, but like I said, this advice is all good for Muslims who are grappling with this issue, but it's not exactly something we can promote and enforce when it comes to non Muslims... Our beliefs stem from the idea that Islam is from God, and since they lack this, theres really nothing stopping them from thinking it's okay. This, as I mentioned, is what makes the topic of homosexuality very difficult when its brought up with people outside of Islam.

Originally Posted by manaal
Masjids and madrasas have to take up this issue and talk to the Muslims about these things and make them understand that it is totally against Islam to be so. This is not happening enough. I know of marriages (Muslims) that have ended up in divorce because the guy couldn't resist his homosexuality. These people need help, and I mean real help, just like drug addicts and alcoholics they need to be taught and educated. Not shunned or despised. Life is a struggles, everybody's got problems. And if these people struggle against their feelings and become true Muslims I believe that Allah will reward them greatly.
While I don't think we've reached the point where many Muslisms actually think it's okay to act on homosexual desires, I do agree that our Masaajids need to educate Muslims about homosexuality and how to deal with (Muslim and non Muslim) homosexuals (in a respectful and dignified manner, that properly represents Islam). I think a lot of the hatred we see from our communities comes from the fact that Muslims just aren't educated in things like this, since it's usually a cultural taboo to even mention it.

But yes, like you mentioned... When it comes to the Muslims who are dealing with homosexuality, Masaajids, as well as the community, need to step in to educate and support them through their trials.
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manaal
03-11-2011, 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by
Yeah, but like I said, this advice is all good for Muslims who are grappling with this issue, but it's not exactly something we can promote and enforce when it comes to non Muslims... Our beliefs stem from the idea that Islam is from God, and since they lack this, theres really nothing stopping them from thinking it's okay. This, as I mentioned, is what makes the topic of homosexuality very difficult when its brought up with people outside of Islam.

There are strong Christian groups that believe homosexuality to be forbidden, because it is, if i'm not mistaken mentioned so in the Bible (Uncle Woodrow?). The thing is when these people speak against it they are labeled as "conservatives" and made to look as though they are being unfair and disrespectful. The problem stems from the separation of religion from their day to day lives. Sadly to many people in the world (whatever their religion maybe) religion belongs only to their places of worship and not to their homes.

Why do you want to educate the non-Muslims though? They'll probably deem it an act of terrorism against their sexualities.

To understand why non-Muslims believe it is ok to be gay, we have to look into history and how gay people in powerful positions (celebrities, politicians etc.) talk:
"God loves you no matter what you are"
"You were put in this world for a purpose"
"be yourself, not what anyone else wants you to be"

I mean they talk about God without believing in him and his words in the first place!
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Tyrion
03-11-2011, 05:41 AM
Originally Posted by manaal
Sadly to many people in the world (whatever their religion maybe) religion belongs only to their places of worship and not to their homes.
Indeed, this seems to be a problem in most of our modern religious communities... However, I'd rather not bring Christian concepts of homosexuality into this discussion, since I'd like the focus to just be on Muslims and their views/actions. :p
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Flame of Hope
03-11-2011, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Take the example of the Prophet(pbuh) and look at what he did in different situations. If we all acted on our hate, there would never be any peace on Earth.

"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
Brother Perseveranze, I do agree with you most whole-heartedly. Whatever it is that others might do shouldn't cultivate the feeling of hate in our hearts. The best policy is to, as you say:
You don't have to mix with them, or in any way encourage them, just ignore them and let them get on with their business and you with your own.
I would also like to remind my respected brothers and sisters here in this thread the following hadith of crucial importance:

On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah al-Nu'man bin Bashir, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:

"Truly, what is lawful is evident, and what is unlawful is evident, and in between the two are matters which are doubtful which many people do not know. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and honour blameless, and he who indulges in doubtful things indulges in fact in unlawful things, just as a shepherd who pastures his flock round a preserve will soon pasture them in it. Beware, every king has a preserve, and the things Allah has declared unlawful are His preserves. Beware, in the body there is a flesh; if it is sound, the whole body is sound, and if it is corrupt, the whole body is corrupt, and behold, it is the heart."

[Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

---------------------------------

There's absolutely no doubt that homosexuality is unlawful. Aren't gay Muslims aware that homosexuality is forbidden? Yes, they are. Yet, they continue with their acts, even though they know that it is forbidden. So despite having knowledge of this, if they persist in homosexual acts, then this is a matter between them and Allah. We know that they will be punished in the Hereafter for their heinous sins. But whether they will remain in Hell forever, that's another matter, because Allah can take them out of Hell if they had not committed shirk.

But regarding what our response should be towards homosexuals, I think we should adopt the attitude of caution. We do not know what's in their future, but we can hope that they will repent. The possibility is always there. So I think the best thing to do would be suspend our judgment, leave the matter in Allah's hands, turn away from them, mind our own business and be concerned about our own sins. As brother Perseveranze pointed out, to keep our hearts clear of hate and thus guard our religion.
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Argamemnon
03-11-2011, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by manaal
I believe that people who declare themselves to be gay do have these feelings and desires of homosexuality in them. But they should fight it.
The definition of the term freedom according to Islam is the exact opposite to the meaning in the West. According to Islam freedom means becoming the "master of your desires", while in the West freedom means becoming a slave to your desires.
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Flame of Hope
03-11-2011, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
The definition of the term freedom according to Islam is the exact opposite to the meaning in the West. According to Islam freedom means becoming the "master of your desires", while in the West freedom means becoming a slave to your desires.
You're right, brother Argamemnon! Thanks for pointing this out. :awesome:

I also agree with sister manaal:
I believe that people who declare themselves to be gay do have these feelings and desires of homosexuality in them. But they should fight it.
Gay Muslims have an obligation to fight those feelings and desires. But it's also an obligation on them to conceal their homosexual tendencies and not go around declaring it to the world. That would be the same as adulterers and fornicators announcing their abominable deeds to people. Muslims who declare that they are homosexuals do not show any wisdom at all. It's as though they think they have a right to be gay and are fighting for their rights?! :rollseyes
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BoredAgnostic
03-11-2011, 10:08 PM
The way I see it is, haters gonna hate, doesn't matter what line of reasoning you give them, because it's always going to be illogical and/or inadequate in their eyes. There seems to be a special kind of disdain for homosexuals that extend outside religious reasons, and whatever our opposing opinion on it is, its not going to make much of a difference. A lot of homosexuals are comfortable with their lifestyle and who they love, so they are seen as people that are basically defying God every moment of their lives, they're living in their 'sin' and not trying to fight it and that's one of the reasons it makes it so 'vile and reprehensible', like a murderer or pedophile that keeps on killing and abusing. The only thing that can be is, if you're homosexual then it might be best that you move a more tolerant area or just not openly express your sexual orientation and play straight to appease. I agree with the point Woodrow was making about how there should be more clarification--effeminate males/masculine females doesn't not necessarily mean they are homosexual. The way I see, people should be free to say what they TRULY feel not attempt to be politically correct, just so you know to stay the hell away from those people and their negativity.
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3rddec
03-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I have posted my feelings and thoughts about this on another thread related to this lately but my feelings on the matter are so strong I dont mind repeating it. I'm a Catholic and i'm aware that many Christians hold very similar views to many Muslims and when I see it in its full gory glory like in Uganda it makes my wonder if this is how Christ would behave with these poor souls. Don't be under any illusions that because Homosexuality is so blatent in the west that Christians are in agreement with whats going on.

The Catholic Church does preach hate the sin but not the sinner but in the case of Homosexuality it does not give enough clear discussion about how to deal with it but there are enough clues to put it together with thought. Im no expert on Islam but i'm sure you can find similar ideas in your beliefs too.

My first thought is why should one sin be somehow worse than another, is there some sort of ranking or is sin not a separation from God , so why should someone who sins through sexuality be somehow worse and deserve worse treatment than those who sin through greed , anger , hatred , pride or all the other ways to sin. I can't see why. Thats not to say I endorse Homosexuality.

The more difficult question is if we are born into a certain sexuality which I believe is the case with some who are homosexual why would God do this. But then of course we are all born with our own individual propensities for sin for after all some men are born Eunuchs (apologies for spelling) so they are unlikely to experience lust.

ps im definately no Eunuch

But we are each here to grow spiritually, to learn to controll our passions for sin ( with God's help as we could never do it alone ) , so the urge a homosexual needs to controll and refuse to act upon is their Homosexual tendancies.

Then I ask why would God give a person the cross of never being able to enjoy the physical expression of love between two people. In the end I concluded that maybe God wants them to avoid the Physical love and focus on developing their spiritual love as often the physical love can lead us astray and forget what the true love is. So the mission for homosexuals could be if they take up the challenge and avoid the sin is to be a beacon to the rest of us about spiritual love. Obviously God could not deny physical love to all of Humanity otherwise where would the next generation come from. But these people if they were to ignore their homosexuality and focus on spiritual love and show this in there life they can be a reminder to all of us.

So in the end I feel that we need to understand the pain of these people ( i couldnt carry their cross ) but we need to make sure that they understand we don't feel we hate them but we can't condone any sinfull behaviour and that through prayer and patience and wisdom we can lead them to understand they have a spiritual lesson to learn just like the rest of us and to just give in to our base natures is wrong. Whether it is to commit a homosexual act, or a hetrosexual sinful act, or lead a life of greed or violence or a thousand other ways we can fail.

Please don't shoot me down in flames but I hope this gives the discussion some themes to discuss rather than lets just take them all out and string them up. Whose next the thieves, the gluttonous, the greedy etc.

Love and Respect
Reply

Flame of Hope
03-11-2011, 10:40 PM
A verse to bring to remembrance......

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: 'To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant.' (The Noble Quran, 28:55)"

If the Qur'an commands us to TURN AWAY from vain talk, wouldn't it be a good idea to take this advice and apply it to also people who openly engage in wrongful acts? I think it is pretty evident what the Qur'an has to say on the matter.
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hopeonallah
03-12-2011, 01:40 AM
assalamu aliqum my dear brother and sister .

I have some personal experience about homosexuality .
I am a gay . from child hood I feel attraction towards to Guy only . Initially I did not know what is going on with me . But I was disturb about my feeling . I have many homo sexual experience from child hood only . I had many encounter . In fact my first encounter happened when I don't have no knowledge about any sexuality , neither homo nor hetero not bi sexual . One of my Uncle had sex with me when I was just 12 years old . It was very hateful experience . And day by day I had many more encounter with my elderly relatives . All guys were minimum 6 years elder then me .

I always thinking what is going on with me . finally I got to know its call homosexual when I was studying in 12 stander . But I feel whats wrong with me . why I am not able to feel attraction towards to female .. And I realize I have penis, its made for passing urine and intercross and anal made for passing **** , Not for intercross because Anal structure is not for enter some thing from out side , its structure such as come out some thing from inside . Anal itself One of the biggest prove that Homosexual is not normal .
I looked at vagina . vagina made for passing urine , giving birth child and its structure is some thing can enter very easily . and look at natural system . before intercross penis as well as vagina release some lubricant( pre cum) so that intercross can be done very easily . But in the case of anal its not happen . here pre cum it self another prove . I can give you many prove that homosexual is not normal even tho I am a gay .
Now question is : if some one start watching some thing or feeling or doing some thing which is really does not exist then definitely its unnatural that person has problem . In similar way if some one start feeling attraction with tree or any other animal or the same sex definitely he or she has problem .
Human being have a tendency to follow or obey or doing some thing which is easy no mater that easy thing right or wrong . once you become addict on it; its very difficult to quit . If some one get to know the easy way of getting pleasure other also start following it; no mater its right or wrong . that is the reason human being need role and regulation . And human being unconsciously brain washing them self that, wrong thing is not wrong , its not happen within one or two days . its develop slowly year after year . we all knows any thing can become very strong and establish, constant which is develop gradually or very slowly ( no mater its right or wrong ). Once its become habit we start thinking its the only truth . Changing habits its more difficult then shift a mountain from one place to another place .

Here we can give a look about alcoholic : how people become alcoholic .
1) Human being wants pleasure not only pleasure they want instant pleasure . we all knows alcohol giving quick and instant pleasure ( no mater its right or wrong , healthy or not ) . Once people get pleasure from them they don't want to leave that pleasure; (actually not they are, their brain don't want ).
2) Human being have problems . all human being want to over come from problem as fast as possible . So they take help of alcohol whether its wrong or right , healthy or unhealthy. once he found alcohol keep distance from their problems it may be for some time but at list they feel relax for a while . So they started taking help from alcohol no mater its carry toxin or not .

A). In similar way human being have sexual desire and human being have limitation to control their desire . human being can control their desire for one year; two years; three years; four years ;five years how long . One day they should break their control. whether they want or not . you can see people are not getting merry even they reach age of 20 , their parent are not allow to get merry until they settle ( I really don't understand what is the meaning of settle). because I have seen people never get settle , people cant get settle in this world . you have to leave this place . So the age of 20 what the guy will do . definitely his limitation get over . So he or she start searching easy alternate and they start having sex with younger guy . and that younger guy may be 12 years may be 13 years, who don't even know what is sex . and when he knows about sex it will be too late . here two person becoming homosexual one is the person who is searching easy way, another one; the person who has no knowledge about sex .

B). two very young guy may be less then 12 years . They are playing together they are eating together , they are sleeping together , they dont have any knowledge about sex .accidentally, while playing they start touching each other sexual organs and they fell pleasure . they continue it and they become homosexual . when they know they are homosexual its already too late .

always remember you may not bother to educated your child or you may get excuses not to educate your child, But evil never forget to distribute his knowledge .

C). Look at your surrounding . Mens are covering their body and day by day women are become nude. If you see your mom's or sister's nude body , How come you feel attraction towards to women .

I don't think this much of reason for becoming homosexual, I just gave you few example . There may be millions of reason .

Now my statement is: this society, means this world all are equally responsible for homosexual activity, no mater they are Gay or Bi or Straight . because I believe if you people educated your child then your child may not become Gay . or if you could not delay to get marry your son or daughter then, they may not become gay or they may not forced some one to become Gay .

Now you may arise the question , why all people are not gay ?
my answer is all people are not equal, some people may die by poison , some people may not die by the same amount of poison . some people get cure by the medicine, some people may not get cure by the same medicine( even they have same disease) .
Some people may very soft very sensitive some people are not very sensitive .

So now your turn , You have to educated them . you have to help them , you have to support them , you have to love them , you have to arrange all resources which can help them to over come from homosexual to heterosexual .
But at any cost homosexual never ever acceptable .

Do you know any homosexual guy personally . If you want to know their view about homosexuality then, you have to meet with them personally not as a straight guy . you have to meet with them as a homosexual guy; then only you will get their actual view about homosexuality . they will not disclose their pain if you introduce your self as a straight in front of them . because they are frustrate , depress , they are insecure , they are help less . ultimately we are human we have ego too . we don't want to put down our self in front of others, no mater how much I already in down .

yes I don't disagree with you that , there are few real evil also, but that no of real evil are very few . And first of all educate the scientist, doctors. At some extant they are also responsible for homosexuality . Why scientist and doctors are telling its normal . they cant make different between anal and vagina ..
I am a gay even I know its not normal all major religions are telling its not normal . logic telling its not normal . physically and practically its not normal . then which evidence they are showing its normal ? first educate scientists and doctors .

Allah will give us hell because we are gay, but don't forget Allah will may ask you also . If you are traveling in a multiple floors ship and lower floor get tear or hole then, don't be misunderstood your self by telling you are safe because you are in the top floor of that ship .

Allah help us ..
Reply

Ramadhan
03-12-2011, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by
Allah will give us hell because we are gay,

This is not correct.

Allah will not give you hell because you are gay.

Everyone in this world is tested by Allah with as many different circumstances as there are humans.
Some are tested with wealth, some with sickness, some with brilliant intelligence, some with extreme poverty, some with being born in deifferent religions/atheism, etc and some with heightened sexualities (whether heterosexuality, bisexuality or homosexuality tendencies).

However, what is being judged is NOT those circumstances, but the efforts one takes towards and to keep to the straight path (shirothol mustaqeem) that Allah SWT prescribe for us.

I am praying to Allah that He give you strength to keep chaste and be firm on the path that Allah SWT has commanded us. ameen.

Just for motivation: a cousin of mine suffered from SSA (Same sex attraction). He now refuses to be called gay, although he used to be "very gay", but alhamdulillah he was guided and has been married to a beautiful woman for a year now. And he told me he's not unique, there are many who have "reverted" and have successful marriages or have guarded themselves from unlawful acts.

Here's some resources that you may find useful in your struggle:

http://gaymuslims.org/
http://straightway.sinfree.net/
Reply

manaal
03-12-2011, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by
The more difficult question is if we are born into a certain sexuality which I believe is the case with some who are homosexual why would God do this.
Why are some people born deaf or blind? Why are some people born with Down's syndrome? Why are some people intelligent and others total duds?

I am told that Allah does these things for a reason. But what this reason is hasn't been explained to me.
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hopeonallah
03-12-2011, 07:37 PM
My dear brother " manaal "
assalamu aliqum !

Your query is :
Why are some people born deaf or blind? Why are some people born with Down's syndrome? Why are some people intelligent and others total duds?

First of all I would like to appreciate you that, you are a truth seeker !

Look at my answer now . it may help you to understand it :

1) . First of all no body born as a GAY. The situation, environment, Lack of knowledge , and SATAN and SATANIC Practices, And keeping distance from Allah make them GAY. Just like all human being born as a Muslim (no mater where he born , may be in Muslim house or non Muslim house ) But the situation, environment, and lack of knowledge, SATAN and keeping distance from Allah make them Non Muslim . [ here you can ask, how can all baby born as a Muslim ? But its a different question and it has different answer ].

2). Why some one born as a Down's syndrome ?
I don't know your profession otherwise I could have given you a relevant example regarding your question , So that I have chosen My profession as an example.
Suppose I work as a computer networking engineer . I am into switch level . I am not into server level . So; me and my team has to resolve those problems which are related to switch .
And in my company there are few watch men which are generally sitting in front of the gate . Most of the time they are sitting only.
And in my company has a policy that , whoever resolve more problem he will get more rewards, may be increase salary may be get promotion etc..
Every day me and my team getting many complains such as , No.5 system (computer) is not able to access Web server , No.140 system is not able to connect with domain etc .. We have to run to resolve the problems. and we do . Here we cant complain to my company's administrator that, why you are always asking us ( team of the com net engineer) to resolve switch related problems , Why don't you ask to those watch men to resolve the problems whole day they were just simply sitting ? No we cant because we are the engineers for it , we have capacity to resolve it which is watch men does not have . they have capacity to watch the company .
Second thing, many time our company's server get down , and that time administrator call or inform or ask to those network engineers who are working in the server level . I never have seen any administrator ask me or us to resolve the server level problems . because we are not into server level .

Third thing, net work related problems are facing soft were engineers, administrator department, account department, sales department etc . We net work engineers not require networking, we don't send or receive data from one place to another place . Then why we are wary regarding networking problem ? Why we need to solve it ? because we are for it .

Similarly, Allah appointed us to this world to resolve our problems. And Allah has a policy that, who are resolving more problems they will get more rewards .
Allah give us problems according to our capacity as like as net work engineer and watch man . So always remember , if you get a problem actually you are getting a chance to get reward . your rewards is ready, As soon as you resolve your problem, same as my company role .

Some time our rewards hiding by the others problem. Example : the Down's syndrome people . Actually this test is not for them , this test for us . Allah want to see us how we take it , how we behave them , how we help them, How we take care them etc . Allah want to see their parents reaction, their family members reaction, their relatives reaction, their stats reaction , their country reaction and all human beings reaction towards to them as well as towards to Allah .
That Down's syndrome people are already got 1000 out of 1000 . they don't have to give any exam , this exam for us . this exam for our views . You will see they are standing with Mohammad (PBUH) in the last judgment day. Their Jannah already ready . same as a poor person need not to offer Haj . they are already got 100 marks out of 100 in Haj, without offering Haj . because Allah knows they don't have capacity to offer Haj .

I hope done your query . If not please continue it, don't stop until you reach truth .

from INDIA . BANGALORE.

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Tyrion
03-12-2011, 08:01 PM
This thread is starting to slowly veer off topic. I don't want to get into a discussion about why/how people are gay... Read my OP, watch the videos, go through the discussion on the first couple of pages, and then continue please.
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3rddec
03-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Hopeonallah you were raped and abused thats the long and short of it; you should seek some professional help to deal with what can only be an unimaginable crime perpetrated on you. I don't care if you wandered of topic a little. Well done for the bravery to post your experience. If you had no knowledge of sexuality before that event it is no wonder you are confused. Get some help and pray to your God for help to put such a terrible thing behind you.

Major LOVE and RESPECT
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CosmicPathos
03-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by manaal

Why are some people born deaf or blind? Why are some people born with Down's syndrome? Why are some people intelligent and others total duds?

I am told that Allah does these things for a reason. But what this reason is hasn't been explained to me.
Do you have the explanation to why are you a female and not a male (dont give me the reason "cuz I have xx chromosome and not xy")? Not everything has a reason. Its Allah's qadr. you can choose to believe or deny it.
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hopeonallah
03-12-2011, 09:19 PM
assalamu aliqum ! my dear brother " naidamar " ,

I am totally disagree with you that " Allah will not give you hell because you are gay ".

1).Allah strongly prohibited homosexuality ( no mater I am a GAY or BISEXUAL) . If I do homo sex .

2). Allah surely give me hell because I am gay , Hell is not only for GAYS but also for BISEXUALS . ( because I am deserve for it )

3). Allah can forgive me if I stop doing HOMO SEX and I regrade and ask forgive, and I promise that, I will not repeat it any more ( no mater I may GAY OR BISEXUAL ) . Allah surely forgive me because Allah is the most Merciful. Not only forgive but also help and show me the right path .

4). Once stop doing HOMO SEX then definitely no more call GAY or BISEXUAL .

5). X- Gay or BISEXUAL may get heaven not current gay or bisexual .

6). So don't make fool your self by telling that, I have enough time , lets enjoy homo sex for a while later will stop it .
Homo sex is more addictive then all drugs (toxin) which are available in this world.

7) I know you are not GAY neither BISEXUAL . So you are safe . Help us to become safe .

thank you .
from INDIA, Bangalore .

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hopeonallah
03-12-2011, 09:30 PM
assala mu aliqum brother and sister .

any body can help me to understand the replied by " 3rddec " to me :-

that replied is:-
you were raped and abused thats the long and short of it; you should seek some professional help to deal with what can only be an unimaginable crime perpetrated on you. I don't care if you wandered of topic a little. Well done for the bravery to post your experience. If you had no knowledge of sexuality before that event it is no wonder you are confused. Get some help and pray to your God for help to put such a terrible thing behind you.

Major LOVE and RESPECT


I really didn't understand it . please any can help me ...
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Argamemnon
03-12-2011, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar


This is not correct.

Allah will not give you hell because you are gay.

Everyone in this world is tested by Allah with as many different circumstances as there are humans.
Some are tested with wealth, some with sickness, some with brilliant intelligence, some with extreme poverty, some with being born in deifferent religions/atheism, etc and some with heightened sexualities (whether heterosexuality, bisexuality or homosexuality tendencies).

However, what is being judged is NOT those circumstances, but the efforts one takes towards and to keep to the straight path (shirothol mustaqeem) that Allah SWT prescribe for us.

I am praying to Allah that He give you strength to keep chaste and be firm on the path that Allah SWT has commanded us. ameen.

Just for motivation: a cousin of mine suffered from SSA (Same sex attraction). He now refuses to be called gay, although he used to be "very gay", but alhamdulillah he was guided and has been married to a beautiful woman for a year now. And he told me he's not unique, there are many who have "reverted" and have successful marriages or have guarded themselves from unlawful acts.

Here's some resources that you may find useful in your struggle:

http://gaymuslims.org/
http://straightway.sinfree.net/
This Summer I will be 35 (insha'Allah), I'm not married and being a Muslim I obviously don't have a girlfriend. I had a strange old Dutch neighbor once and one day he blatantly asked me if I was gay... for some odd reason, when you are neither married nor have a girlfriend, people assume that you must be gay. I think it's a very strange assumption when they have never seen you with a guy.

Perhaps they are envious that I can be happy on my own without becoming a slave to my desires. They must be thinking that I'm living a horrible life, while I'm becoming happier and happier as I get older, alhamdulillah. I can't say anything about the future, but it seems as though this is the most suitable lifestyle for me!!

:w:
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3rddec
03-12-2011, 11:15 PM
Can someone translate my last post above for hopeonallah as I am very keen he get the message; thank you

Love and respect
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Ramadhan
03-13-2011, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by
7) I know you are not GAY neither BISEXUAL . So you are safe . Help us to become safe .
First, I am trying to help you, that's why I wrote the post.
If you read again my post with clearer mind and stop being so emotional then you would know what I really mean and that I do want to help you.

Second, who says I am safe? and for that matter who in the world can say that they are not going to hell? no one. (well maybe except for christians who claim they are all going to paradise because they believe in jesus as God. But there's no proof in their claim.)
no one is safe.
I might not be tested by Allah with sexuality problem, but if you know about everything that I have been through, you might not be so envious.

As a man with homosexual tendency, you might feel (at first) that this life is hell if you have to make yourself abstain from acting upon it.
Thankfully, Allah through Islam has provided us with cures and remedies for every ailments and illness (physical, emotional, or psychological) that afflict us.
But first you have to understand what this life is about, although I am not going to give you lecture about that as I'm sure you can read from books and from the internet about our life purpose and how fleeting life is (what, 70-80 years compared to eternity in afterlife?).

And once you have better understanding of the purpose of life, then you will have better perspectives about your own life and not merely totally swallowed by your feeling of helplessness and totally caught up by feeling that makes sexuality the centre of your life. Allah should become the centre of your life instead.

Now, practical steps that you need to make your burden go away or at least lessen:

1. Stop associating with other gay people. This may be hard for you at first because they might be the only friends you have or they are your closest friends, but this is very important step to make. You don't have to stop at once, but lessen your interaction with them step by step. Let's not kid ourselves and think that we are strong enough that other people do not affect us. From ahadeeth, from our life experiences, from history and from science we know that our perspectives, our opinions, our views of life are heavily influenced by people we surround ourselves with.
So that means you need to make new friends with good people with strong eeman who implement Islam in daily life. How? Search for Islamic courses in your area and enroll in those classes. Start to offer shalah fard and spend more time in mosque, whether in your neighborhood, your school or work place. Smile to people in there, introduce yourself and make friends with them. You can offer to help doing something for the mosque, no matter how small it is. That will lead you to make friends with them. I am not quite sure how old you are, but if you are still a youth, you may join some youth muslim organizations.
Slowly but surely your paradigm of life will shift.

2. Do not do anything that will only incite your homosexuality. This means, never ever go near any pornographic materials, gay or otherwise, Be firm and strong and do not surrender yourself to the whispering of shaytan.

3. prophet Muhammad SAW prescribed fastings for those who are ready but cannot marry yet. So start doing sunnah fastings. If you are able to, you can do sunnah prophet Daud (pbuh) which is fasting every other day (one day fasting - one day break - and goes on), or you can start with the monday-thursday fastings. There are sooo many barokah, blessings, and hikmah in fastings. First, fasting is the only ibada for Allah (there's a hadith Qudsi about this I think). Second, fasting is proven very beneficial in helping controlling libido and reset physical, emotional and psychological health. So do this, and do not delay.

4. Start implementing sunnah in your daily life. The more you implement sunnah, the more you will feel easier to manage your homosexuality.

5. Always pray to Allah for guidance, ask for forgiveness (the du'a from prophets Adam or yunus (pbut) who asked for forgiveness is very powerful - Laa Ilaaha illa anta, Subhanaka innee kuntu minadzholimin - "There is no God that I worship but you, You are the Most High, so forgive me for I have wronged myself). Increase your sunnah prayers such as tahajud and dhuha, and be positive btu still patient that Allah accepts your du'a.

5. If one day you slip and peform homosexual act or even watching porn for example, do not despair and do not surrender and think that Allah make you that way. You must repent to Allah SWT as soon as you do that, ask Allah for forgiveness with every sincerity and promise yourself to never do it again. Remember, always repent. Allah SWT will forgive our sins no matter if it fills earth and sky as long as we are sincere in our repentance. Do not despair from the hope on Allah.

One last thing, even if you still think that this life is hell for you, it is nothing compared to the eternity of real hell.
So you still have a choice:
endure this "hell" with sabr (patience) and shalah and take the rewards of eternal jannah (paradise), or surrender to your desires and lust for 60-70 year face the consequence of eternal naar (hell)
.
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hopeonallah
04-07-2011, 06:54 PM
Assala mu alaiqum ! brother and sister

I would like to ask you that, What exactly homosexuality and whats its behavior ?

1). Is Sodomy a Sin in Islam ?

2). Is it a addiction like alcohol or other addiction ?

3) Is it a behavior ?

4) Is it a practice ?

5) Is it a habit ?

6). Is It some thing else beyond of above mentioned ?

7). What is it according to science and Islam ?

8). Are Homosexual people some thing different then Heterosexual people ( physically , psychologically , hormonally , chemical differences , blood ; flash ; bone , any kind or type of element or elementary ) ?

Please enlightening me ....

thanks ....
Reply

Woodrow
04-07-2011, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by hopeonallah
Assala mu alaiqum ! brother and sister

I would like to ask you that, What exactly homosexuality and whats its behavior ? .
In simple terms, Homosexuality is sexual relationships between people of the same sex. The engaging in a sexual act between members of the same gender is the behavior of homosexuality.

1). Is Sodomy a Sin in Islam ?
Yes, it makes no difference as to if both are male or if one is male and one is female. It is a sin.



2). Is it a addiction like alcohol or other addiction ?
If the person can not control it and can not stop, it is an addiction. Anything we can not stop doing is an addiction.



3) Is it a behavior ?
Any action we do is a behavior, so it is a behavior.



4) Is it a practice ?
If it is done on a regular basis, it would be a practice in addition to being an addiction

5) Is it a habit ?
Habit is another term for an addictive behavior

6). Is It some thing else beyond of above mentioned ?
It is highly self destructive and does greatly affect a persons enjoyment of life.


7). What is it according to science and Islam ?
It is the same for both. Sexual acts between creatures of the same sex. It is some what of a misnomer to call a person a homosexual, as it is the act and not the person. The person should more correctly be called a person with homosexual desires.

8). Are Homosexual people some thing different then Heterosexual people ( physically , psychologically , hormonally , chemical differences , blood ; flash ; bone , any kind or type of element or elementary ) ?
There is no identifying physical trait that would identify a person as having homosexual desires.

Please enlightening me ....

thanks ...
Your Welcome. I hope this helps at least a little.
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Rhubarb Tart
04-07-2011, 10:03 PM
Admins should close this thread.

@Hopeonallah

I don’t understand why you are asking these questions when these questions have been answered in this thread and in your thread in advice and support section:
http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...n-help-me.html

Please enlightening me...

thanks...
:statisfie
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S.Belle
04-07-2011, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
Admins should close this thread.
Why? (12 characters)
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Tyrion
04-08-2011, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by S.Belle


Why? (12 characters)
Id like to know why as well.. I think this thread is important, and there's no need to close it if one or two people go off topic... Let's try to focus on the points brought up on the first page though.
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Yahya_Ajam
04-09-2011, 07:27 AM
I'm not going to say I "am" a homosexual...I'm going to say that I have homosexual tendencies. Since becoming a Muslim, I have had to learn how to avoid those "desires". I think I will always have them but InshAllah I will be able to overcome them.

That was off topic, I apologize.

The way alot of Muslims talk about homosexuals is really offensive sometimes. We, as Muslims, understand where the passion in our words comes from. It comes from a desire for everybody to experience the joy that we have in following the laws of Islam. We don't want to see anybody "left behind" so to speak (that's where I'm coming from anyway). But to the western world, it comes off as closed minded and hateful...and also overbearing. I think we could definitely work on conveying our thoughts in a more sincere and caring way.

Also something that we also have to remember, not everybody WANTS to hear our opinions. Most non-Muslims are very happy with their life and won't give a rats tush what we have to say.
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hopeonallah
04-09-2011, 08:20 PM
Assala mu alaiqum ! " Sweet106 "

Thank you for your response to me .

As you said :
" I don’t understand why you are asking these questions when these questions have been answered in this thread and in your thread in advice and support section:
http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...n-help-me.html (For Allah sake any body can help me)

Please enlightening me... "

My reply to you that , I got more statements rather the evidences along with statements from the members .

I heard a lot in my life that, Homosexuality is a absolutely Normal . My brain got wash by this statements . I want to rewash my brain by truth . So that I need to know and clarify each and every thing about homosexuality which is not a normal .

I live in India . India is a free country ( lawful or unlawful by Islam ). I can live my life any ways , no body can stop me to live a gay life here , even I am trying to overcome from homosexuality . I hope you can understand my inner feelings .

AS per my knowledge , most of the people are not bother about sexual act whether is lawful or not . I never heard in any mosque or from any Muslim people that homosexuality is a Sin in my life in India . I got this information from some gay people that, they told me homosexuality is a Sin according to Islam ( by getting angry ) . After that I asked to few Muslims and I got to know it . Infect people think doing active role with a same sex is not a looser, Doing passive role with a same sex is a looser only in India, Pakistan, Bangladeshi and Middle east countries . You believe me or not but its true that; I feel hard to believe that, there are any man who is not having homo sex . Mentioned countries people are doing ' seeing that see not hearing that hear not role' . But in the western countries are bit different . In the western countries you can specify who is involve in homo sex and who is not involve in homo sex . Because they declare what they are and what they are not but eastern and Middle east countries every body doing every thing only differences is hidden and open form, specification and no specification .
My dear friend , I had homo sex with more then 800 guys, and more then 600 was Muslims only because I like non smelly hygienic people so I preferred Muslim most . their age was 22 to 40 years; very few are there more then 40 years . More then 70% are married only . This data is after 20years age to till now of my age . For your kind information that, I do active role in bed , so now you can imagine how many people can involve in homo sex; where people feel gainer if they do active role in bed ?

I don't understand , why people want to hide it and make to continue ? Why people don't want to talk and inform to people that its a wrong and we have to save our self from it . No mater you do active role or passive role .
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hopeonallah
04-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Assala mu alaiqum " woodrow "

Your answer is nice but it could be more valuable if you attached any prove with it . thanks .
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Woodrow
04-10-2011, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by hopeonallah
Assala mu alaiqum " woodrow "

Your answer is nice but it could be more valuable if you attached any prove with it . thanks .
I will see if I can find some of my old text books online. I was using the DSMlll and remembering from some of my old books I used when I was practicing as a consultant in a psych hospital. That was a long time ago. I did not do much work in clinical psychology, my field was primarily in physiological psychology. Some of my old research may still be in print. I did a few papers on trying to find a physical link to homosexual tendencies. But I won't use my own work to establish proof for you, as I may be a bit biased towards my own work, I will see what I can find that was published by some of my colleagues.

I will gather up some reference works that Insha Allah will suffice as proof. It will take a few hours, I need to remember names, at my age I have trouble remembering my own.
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Woodrow
04-10-2011, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I will see if I can find some of my old text books online. I was using the DSMlll and remembering from some of my old books I used when I was practicing as a consultant in a psych hospital. That was a long time ago. I did not do much work in clinical psychology, my field was primarily in physiological psychology. Some of my old research may still be in print. I did a few papers on trying to find a physical link to homosexual tendencies. But I won't use my own work to establish proof for you, as I may be a bit biased towards my own work, I will see what I can find that was published by some of my colleagues.

I will gather up some reference works that Insha Allah will suffice as proof. It will take a few hours, I need to remember names, at my age I have trouble remembering my own.
I apologise for not offering some verifications I can show immediatly.

1. Homosexuality is not considered to be a pasychiatric disorder by the AMA or the APA as it was deleted as such in the second edition of the DSMll second edition 1973:http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...XhmRIOt1O5hCFw

Some of the other points are simply a matter of definition.

Here are some definitions by recognized sources:

BEHAVIOR:


From Merrian-webster

Definition of BEHAVIOR
1
a : the manner of conducting oneself b : anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation c : the response of an individual, group, or species to its environment
2
: the way in which someone behaves; also : an instance of such behavior
3
: the way in which something functions or operates
— be·hav·ior·al adjective
— be·hav·ior·al·ly adverb
See behavior defined for English-language learners »
Examples of BEHAVIOR

I'm surprised by her bad behavior toward her friends.
Students will be rewarded for good behavior.
scientists studying the behavior of elephants
An acceptable social behavior in one country may be unacceptable in another country.
Doctors are trying to educate people about behaviors that can put them at increased risk for skin cancer.
The experiment tested the behavior of various metals under heat and pressure.

Origin of BEHAVIOR
alteration of Middle English behavour, from behaven
First Known Use: 15th century
Related to BEHAVIOR
Synonyms: actions, address, bearing, comportment, conduct, demeanor, deportment, geste (also gest) [archaic]
[+]more
Other Psychology Terms
fetish, hypochondria, intelligence, mania, narcissism, neurosis, pathological, psychosis, schadenfreude, subliminal

SOURCE


An explanation of behavior by BF Skinner the founder of Behaviorial Psychology

A Brief Survey of Operant Behavior

by B.F. Skinner


It has long been known that behavior is affected by its consequences. We reward and punish people, for example, so that they will behave in different ways. A more specific effect of a consequence was first studied experimentally by Edward L. Thorndike in a well-known experiment. A cat enclosed in a box struggled to escape and eventually moved the latch which opened the door. When repeatedly enclosed in a box, the cat gradually ceased to do those things which had proved ineffective ("errors") and eventually made the successful response very quickly.


In operant conditioning, behavior is also affected by its consequences, but the process is not trial-and-error learning. It can best be explained with an example. A hungry rat is placed in a semi-soundproof box. For several days bits of food are occasionally delivered into a tray by an automatic dispenser. The rat soon goes to the tray immediately upon hearing the sound of the dispenser. A small horizontal section of a lever protruding from the wall has been resting in its lowest position, but it is now raised slightly so that when the rat touches it, it moves downward. In doing so it closes an electric circuit and operates the food dispenser. Immediately after eating the delivered food the rat begins to press the lever fairly rapidly. The behavior has been strengthened or reinforced by a single consequence. The rat was not "trying" to do anything when it first touched the lever and it did not learn from "errors."

For more on Skinner's views click on the SOURCE
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Ubeyde
04-10-2011, 09:34 PM
Asalamu Alaykum Wa rahmutallahi wa barakatu

The reasoning behind the so-called hatred shown to these individuals is because of Allah and His Messenger Muhamad (SA) have both cursed these individuals to the day of Judgement..

1. Sexual intercourse at the Anus is amongst the worst sins (even with one's wife)
2. The magnitude of this sin is multiplied tremendously if shared with the same sex (i.e. Man-man)
3. Men behaving like women are accursed
4. Men who dress like women are accursed

Nowhere in Islamic shariah does it state that these people cannot be saved, lest they do not accept Islamic Monethism and rid of their sinful, lustful mannerisms.

No scientific evidence produced by people of understanding to accept that there is naturally within certain individuals to desire relations with the same sex. So-called evidence supporting Homosexuality have been deemed false, and are usually conducted with the following agenda(s): They, themselves are Homosexual; they share relations (not specifically sexual) with the same sex who are homosexual; they seek to profit from it.

I now ask you to produce to me, and the rest of humanity, evidence that Homosexuality occurs in the Natural World, and that it occurs due to the animal having desire to be with the same sex. There is no such Evidence.

Look at the story of the Sodomites for example. Even to the Homosexuals Allah has shown mercy and given them a Prophet, Prophet Lut (AS) to guide them to Truth.

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, “Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.”
[Qur'an, Al-A'raf 7:80-81, Saheeh International translation]


And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, “Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.”
[Qur'an, Al-A'raf 7:80-81, Saheeh International translation]


Peace..


Reply

GuestFellow
04-10-2011, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
I now ask you to produce to me, and the rest of humanity, evidence that Homosexuality occurs in the Natural World, and that it occurs due to the animal having desire to be with the same sex. There is no such Evidence.
:sl:

I'm no expert but there are scientists that claim homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom.

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
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Ramadhan
04-11-2011, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
Asalamu Alaykum Wa rahmutallahi wa barakatu

:wa:

Bro, it is best to speak with knowledge, because otherwise your argument can only backfire, and your argument would appear as if you support homosexuality.

Originally Posted by Ubeyde
I now ask you to produce to me, and the rest of humanity, evidence that Homosexuality occurs in the Natural World, and that it occurs due to the animal having desire to be with the same sex. There is no such Evidence.
There are fundamental flaws in your stance above.

First, there are PLENTY of homosexual acts occurring in the natural world. If you watch discovery, natgeo, natgeo wild, etc, you would surely know. Or if you lived in a farm or see animals on daily basis. The bonobo chimps have been proven and documented to have sex for pleasures only, and they do it with EVERYONE in their own kind, between the males, between the females, incestuous, with babies, etc. These things happen in the natural world.

Second, you cannot use the fact that something which does not occur in the natural world as the basis for prohibition against it. Otherwise you would have to allow stealing, because animals steal. You would have to allow murder, because some animals murder without reason and not for food, etc. Animals have only nafsu without aql (desires without reason/intelligence) while humans are special creation who are blessed with both capacities. If humans only follow their nafs, they are no different than animals, actually they are worse than animals.
In short, sunatulah (the Law of Allah) and the fitrah (natural state) for human are different than those for animals, so we cannot take what happens/not happen in natural world as examples/law for humans.
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Ubeyde
04-11-2011, 09:55 AM
I have read what you said in response.

No animal enjoys having relations with other animals other than Dolphins as far as I know.

Also, when scientists show that there is some form of Homosexual evidence amongst different species of Animal, they are showing that the animal adopts a Female role. I.e. the Male takes the role of protecting, feeding, etc. for the young due to the Female being absent.

Also, you need to UNDERSTAND the agenda behind some corrupt Political Governments (i.e. the people who fund the scientists). These people are under immense pressure to come up with some kind of "evidence" to allow it to spread. Have you noticed recently an overhaul on particular Homosexual Personalities on your TV? They want to present Homosexuality as though it is more common than it is, when in actual fact, it isn't common at all..

You have to then understand that these same people who provide evidence for Homosexuality still believe in the Disproved theory of Evolution- Darwinism.
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Ubeyde
04-11-2011, 09:56 AM
You have to then understand that these same people who provide evidence for Homosexuality still believe in the Disproved theory of Evolution- Darwinism.

They also believe in Natural Selection, and if you allow me to expand, I will be able to provide you with proof that Homosexuality is psychological.

According to Natural Selection (now disproved), every species, be it a Lion or Human, evolves by "filtering" out weaker genes. The weakest of the group, i.e. the vulnerable, old, etc. are eaten off by predators. Which means that, according to theory, if homosexuality is now deemed "common-place" and always has done, then sometime in our biological history, there must have been a group of "Humanoids" which practiced homosexuality in large numbers. This means that if this was true, then according to the Theory of Evolution, we cannot be here. I.e. the Males would only mix with the other Males, avoiding intercourse which promotes pro-creation. That also means that these individuals, through the process of Natural Selection, even if they do mate with other females, then the offspring of that particular Father would have a desire to be with the same sex.

This poses a number of problems:
1. The homosexuals of the group won't protect the young, vulnerable, etc.
2. A new set of offspring cannot take place, meaning extinction..

Therefore, this tells us at least one thing, it gives reasoning that there is no such thing as evolution amongst humans for that very reason if you believe that homosexuality is natural.

If you study the psyche of those who practice homosexuality, as posted by earlier I believe, then you will see that it is practiced for pure psychological reasons.

fetish, hypochondria, intelligence, mania, narcissism, neurosis, pathological, psychosis, schadenfreude, subliminal


I am in no way a believer in Darwinism, I am a strong Muslim, I just hold views against those who practice homosexuality without repentance, or seeking to rectify themselves quite harshly. It is not because I hate the individual, rather it is because I hate the ACTION they commit.
Reply

Sethi
04-11-2011, 11:22 AM
Hello,

I am new to this forum. I will stick to the topic of how Muslims view and act towards homosexuals, but I want to give you a little background information so you know where I am coming from. Although I disagree with some things said here, I do not wish to debate, as I want to respect the beliefs of others.

I am an agnostic living in the United States. After the recent Peter King hearings, I have become concerned about the way that Muslims are viewed and treated by the people of my country. I have decided to learn more about Islam, and do what I can to dispel negative false information when I come across it. Although I am not sure what is the best way to help improve relations between Muslims and non-Muslims here, I have thought that more inclusive activities involving both groups would help. Once people actually get to know one another, hopefully they will be able to better understand one another. However, I also know a lot of homosexuals. I am concerned that outright hatred of homosexuals by Muslims would interfere with efforts to improve the way Muslims are perceived.

Hatred will only encourage more hatred. I think that it is very important for people to learn to live in peace even if they do not agree. Judgment is up to God.

Thanks for your time,
Peace
Reply

Ramadhan
04-11-2011, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
I have read what you said in response.
Judging by your response, I don't think you have.
Reply

Ubeyde
04-11-2011, 01:19 PM
Sorry for O/T but in what way? Have I offended someone with what I have written? If it is false what I say, don't read it, throw it away. It is my weakness that you don't understand what I offer. I am sorry if I have offended you.

But I have read your response, and taken it into account.. Maybe I percieved you wrongly..

At Sethi, you are right- we should be at peace with the whole of Creation.
Reply

Ubeyde
04-12-2011, 03:30 PM
At Naidamer.

There may be, may be evidence of Homosexuality being practiced by animals, but, they do not have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. That is why but a few of them will be judged harshly..

We, as Humans, have been blessed by Allah Ta'ala for giving us reasoning and given us the ablitiy to feel shame, etc. Therefore, there is no excuse for a Homosexual to practice what his nafs desires. IF a Homosexual abstains from his lustful desires to be with others of the same sex, and marries a member from the opposite sex, imagine the rewards for such a person. First, he suppreses his Nafs, then he bears with it patiently, then he marries a member of the opposite sex whom he isn't attracted to and bears patience with them..

Allah knows best and I am but a mere, weak servent of His, who contains not even a fraction of His Divine Knowledge, may Allah Ta'ala forgive me and the rest of Humanity and Creation for their weaknesses. Ameen.
Reply

Tyrion
04-12-2011, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
You have to then understand that these same people who provide evidence for Homosexuality still believe in the Disproved theory of Evolution- Darwinism.
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
According to Natural Selection (now disproved)
Ughh, go awayyyy...

Not even the staunchest of creationists would say some of the ridiculous things you've said here... I'm curious, are you a Harun Yahya fan?

Anyway, back to the topic... I mentioned before, i don't want this getting into a "Gays are wrong, homosexuality is their fault, and here's why" thread... This is about Muslims, and how we think of, talk about, and treat homosexuals inside and outside of our communities.
Reply

Woodrow
04-12-2011, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
Sorry for O/T but in what way? Have I offended someone with what I have written? If it is false what I say, don't read it, throw it away. It is my weakness that you don't understand what I offer. I am sorry if I have offended you.

But I have read your response, and taken it into account.. Maybe I percieved you wrongly..

At Sethi, you are right- we should be at peace with the whole of Creation.
The problem put forward in your argument is that it relates human traits to animal traits. When we say some thing is wrong for humans because we do not see any animals doing it insinuates that the opposite would be true. In other words if we see something common place in the animal world, that line of reasoning would mean it is permissible for humans to do the same.

Stealing is very common and natural among animals, we can not take that to mean stealing should be permitted among humans. We have never seen any animal develop a written language, that does not mean it is wrong for humans to have done so.

Statements as to if Homosexuality is or is not observed in nature, have no bearing on if it is natural, permitted or forbidden for humans to do so.
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S.Belle
04-12-2011, 05:25 PM
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Ubeyde
04-12-2011, 06:15 PM
At Tyrion. Excuse me? What you've said is extremely rude and arrogant. It is very difficult to express ones thoughts using text without showing you examples. No I am not a Harun Yahya fan, and read my arguement... You shoud never ever say to someone "go away" just because you misinterpert what I have said.. I am not a believer in Evolution, in fact I am 100% against it. I am a strong Muslim, but I am young and therefore inclined to make some mistakes so forgive me please ;) However, I am knowledgable to a certain degree.. I.e. I know many Ahadith and many Surahs of the Quran.. I'll see if I can't fish out some relevent Ahadith relating to this subject.

AT Woodrow.

You are right.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-13-2011, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ubeyde
AT Woodrow. You are right.

Interesting.

I was basically saying the same thing as Woodrow.
Reply

Ubeyde
04-13-2011, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar


Interesting.

I was basically saying the same thing as Woodrow.
Hmmm maybe I misread or misinterpereted, if that's the case my bad :) and forgive me Bro...

Jazakarallah Khair.
Reply

hopeonallah
04-16-2011, 11:02 PM
Assala mu alaiqum " Argamemnon " !

You have told us : " This Summer I will be 35 (insha'Allah), I'm not married and being a Muslim I obviously don't have a girlfriend. I had a strange old Dutch neighbor once and one day he blatantly asked me if I was gay... for some odd reason, when you are neither married nor have a girlfriend, people assume that you must be gay. I think it's a very strange assumption when they have never seen you with a guy.

Perhaps they are envious that I can be happy on my own without becoming a slave to my desires. They must be thinking that I'm living a horrible life, while I'm becoming happier and happier as I get older, alhamdulillah. I can't say anything about the future, but it seems as though this is the most suitable lifestyle for me!! " .

Same case happened in my native . there is one guy who is belong to very rich family he was 30 years old . But he didn't get married . He was a very decent guy . He didn't have any girlfriend . He was not doing adultery . But we young guys were thinking he is a gay nothing else . But his male servants who are working in his house were not handsome , but he is a very handsome guy . He didn't have any close male friend too . Then what is the reason he was not married . One day one person asked to his father that, why he is not getting marry ? His father said , don't know . The person told , may be your son has some sexual problem or may be your son is a gay . His father got angry and told his is not gay neither he has any sexual problem . After that the person told if " some one have eyes and he is telling he don't see any thing , its not possible , similarly if some one have sexual system and he is not having sex with any one till his 30 years age then definitely its a completely lie nothing else . After that, 30 years old unmarried guy's father took his son to the doctors but some doctors told he does not have any sexual problem its his wish only . But his father didn't stop and he took him to a very big and costly hospital and their one Muslim famous doctor started treat him and he found some physical as well as psychological problems . He had some libido problem . That doctor advised his for regular counseling and change his life style and some medication too . And doctor assure them ( guy and his father ) he will be cure but it may take more then one years . They followed doctors advice religiously and believe me within eight months that guy asking his father to finding a girl for marry . within few days he got married .

So in your case doubt of people are right . if your eyes are functioning properly then you cant stop seeing . You cant say that, I don't watch any thing whereas you have two proper eyes . If your sexual system is perfect then you cant stay without having sex . At least you have to satisfy your self by masturbation . Or else you must have some physical as well as psychological problems . may be both or may be one .
here I can say please visit a good Muslim doctor as soon as possible . If one doctors cant find out any problem in you then, take some other doctor's advice . here why I am asking to visit Muslim doctors because most of the non Muslim doctors are misguide you which are prohibited in Islam by telling its normal . example If one non Muslim guy go to a non Muslim doctor for overcome from his homosexuality then, that doctor will help him for overcome from homosexuality . But at the same doctor if one Muslim guy go there for overcome from homosexuality he will advice to the Muslim patient that homosexuality is a normal and its not changeable . But for other diseases doctors are not misguide any body whether the patient are Muslim or Non Muslim example fever , cancer etc . But for homosexuality , not getting married , need child , such kind of problem Muslim people should visit Muslim doctors only . I have experience about this .
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hopeonallah
04-16-2011, 11:19 PM
Assala mu alaiqum " Ubeyde " !

As you said : 3. Men behaving like women are accursed
4. Men who dress like women are accursed " .

This is the misconception among the people and people making fool to each other that Gays are like to act like a girl . In fact there are neno quantity Gays are act like a girl . Most of the male who practice homo sex are not act like a girl . I have very strong confusion that , there are any male who is not practicing Homo sex in their life . So we need to focus about homosexuality rather then woman behavior being a homosexual practitioner males.
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