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Hiroshi
03-08-2011, 06:01 PM
Usama Hasam, an imam who leads the Friday prayers at the Masjid al-Tawhid mosque in Leyton received death threats after preaching that Islam and the theory of evolution are compatible.

The full story is reported here:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...g-evolution.do


Leaving aside the question of whether the theory of evolution is right or wrong, I wondered if any members of this forum have observed similar reactions of intolerance from authorities within Islam over this issue. I am surprised that this controversy seems to be so inflammatory. All of the Muslims that I have spoken to tell me that they believe in animal evolution although not in human evolution. But they do not attach much importance to such beliefs whether for or against Darwin's theory.

Is there then a sharp division now between modern thinking Muslims and more traditionally minded ones over the importance of this question? I would appreciate anyone who could comment on this.
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GuestFellow
03-08-2011, 06:13 PM
I personally have no problem with evolution.

Whatever the Imam's views might be, he should not be receiving death threats.
Reply

Zuzubu
03-08-2011, 06:17 PM
That is wrong, and evolution is a teory and it dosn't go against Islam.
Reply

Hiroshi
03-08-2011, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I personally have no problem with evolution.

Whatever the Imam's views might be, he should not be receiving death threats.
I was shocked by the news. But maybe then all of this fuss is being stirred up by only a minority with extreme views and standards?
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Hiroshi
03-08-2011, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zuzubu
That is wrong, and evolution is a teory and it dosn't go against Islam.
As I said, I am not concerned here with whether evolution is right or wrong. I just wonder what the generally accepted Islamic view is on this. And is this a new development or has there always been such violent disagreement?
Reply

Huzzy_786
03-08-2011, 08:13 PM
I am speechless... :S
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جوري
03-08-2011, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Is there then a sharp division now between modern thinking Muslims and more traditionally minded ones over the importance of this question?

It isn't a question of traditional vs. modern-- I don't understand why people such as yourself insist on using such terms? They're pretty vague to Muslims yet you expect us to build a dialogue on an already faulty premise? --
Either way what is an imam doing preaching theories and what are people doing threatening him about it? It is absurd on both grounds and I can't help but think there is so much more to this than what is being reported.. I believe just a great part of this schism that is being deliberately created with one intention in mind..
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aadil77
03-08-2011, 08:38 PM
Why is everyone so shocked? This is a man that has been persistent in his deviant views, he suggested that adam (a.h) had actual parents - who may have evolved from monkeys. Also made comments suggesting hijab is not compulsary.

The only reason he's getting death threats is because he won't leave his masjid even after huge petitions for him to get out. This has been going on for years.
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aadil77
03-08-2011, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
As I said, I am not concerned here with whether evolution is right or wrong. I just wonder what the generally accepted Islamic view is on this. And is this a new development or has there always been such violent disagreement?
Islamically his views are deviant and innovations - which makes him no longer fit to lead at a masjid. Such views will not be tolerated, so either he leaves and preaches his views outside of the mosque or he continues for years and ends up facing death threats.
Reply

جوري
03-08-2011, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Why is everyone so shocked? This is a man that has been persistent in his deviant views, he suggested that adam (a.h) had actual parents - who may have evolved from monkeys. Also made comments suggesting hijab is not compulsary. The only reason he's getting death threats is because he won't leave his masjid even after huge petitions for him to get out. This has been going on for years.

I am not shocked.. I don't know who the hell he is.. the only thing I wanted to comment on was this 'traditional vs. modern' shbeal.. like extremist vs. moderate shbeal.. it is getting tired.. like you either have to be 'modernist' and accept that rocks sprung wings, sprung legs, sprung lungs sprung monkeys, sprung humans or you're a backward traditionalist.. I haven't seen any sane verifiable data based science enter the foyer .. just more meaningless words and alot of hoopla in the background.
I am a scientist, I hold a doctorate and have worked in research I have papers published (I Know how papers get published) I know that I can take the same set of data that I used to prove one thing to prove its exact opposite in a different period of time.. but even here we're not speaking of statistics and palpable variables we're speaking of unverifiable crap.. People don't even specify whether it is macro or micro-evolution they're speaking of before preaching crap or before feeling persecuted for preaching crap.. all they need to do is but spew and divide into categories.. it is baseless and pathetic!

:w:
Reply

GuestFellow
03-08-2011, 09:54 PM
:sl:
Why is everyone so shocked?
Not me. :X

I never heard of him until three hours ago.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Islamically his views are deviant and innovations - which makes him no longer fit to lead at a masjid. Such views will not be tolerated, so either he leaves and preaches his views outside of the mosque or he continues for years and ends up facing death threats.
I suspect there will be more Imams coming and preaching incorrect views. The government is going to be involved. Following David Cameron's speech there will be more attention drawn towards Islam and Muslims. I think Muslims should be careful of Islamic Institutions that receive public funding. This is because these institutions will represent the government views instead of Islamic principles...

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I am not shocked.. I don't know who the hell he is.. the only thing I wanted to comment on was this 'traditional vs. modern' shbeal.. like extremist vs. moderate shbeal.. it is getting tired.. like you either have to be 'modernist' and accept that rocks sprung wings, sprung legs, sprung lungs sprung monkeys, sprung humans or you're a backward traditionalist.. I haven't seen any sane verifiable data based science enter the foyer .. just more meaningless words and alot of hoopla in the background.
I am a scientist, I hold a doctorate and have worked in research I have papers published (I Know how papers get published) I know that I can take the same set of data that I used to prove one thing to prove its exact opposite in a different period of time.. but even here we're not speaking of statistics and palpable variables we're speaking of unverifiable crap.. People don't even specify whether it is macro or micro-evolution they're speaking of before preaching crap or before feeling persecuted for preaching crap.. all they need to do is but spew and divide into categories.. it is baseless and pathetic!

:w:
Yes, I'm tired of this "moderate" vs "extremist" approach to these discussions. What do these terms even mean? -_-;;
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MartyrX
03-08-2011, 11:20 PM
I've never heard of him. He shouldn't be getting death threats at all.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-08-2011, 11:49 PM
i would imagine that that's the same (or similar) treatment that a priest would receive if he were preaching the same thing, no? i mean doesn't evolution go against the main teachings of Christianity and therefore warrant the same reaction. what if it was something else which entailed going against the main beliefs of Christianity that a priest preached, wouldn't that cause a row among the true followers of Christianity? its not unusual that they would be offended. the death threat probably isn't the best and most agreeable (at all) option, though it may be understandable.

doesn't almost anything that goes against a system of belief (be it religious or otherwise) cause a the same reaction from followers? its not really anything new :hmm: the subject may change, but the concept generally stays the same.
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CosmicPathos
03-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Not surprised. Usama Hasan is not a biologist, yet he believes what the biologists have to say. And it seems he is convinced by the "evidence of evolution" that does exist. Seems the caliber of evidence required to convince Usama is pretty subclass. I wonder what his father feels about his son: son gone astray? perhaps, who knows.

As the Muslim world prospers economically and financially, and most importantly educationally, the number of ex-Muslim atheists (who happen to be quite educated) will increase. Sort of a scary phenomenon. What's scarier is the authority these atheists will assume in the realm of politics and such. That does seem to be quite an issue for the upcoming generations of humans in Pakistan. There are atheists living in Saudi Arabia (what I naively used to think the Islamic homeland) right now. Seems disbelief in God is as spread across humanity, across all religions and people of all color, as homosexuality is. I just continue to pray that there are no underlying genetic causes for these modes of thinking.

From personal experience, the alarming rate of emergence of atheists among educated Pakistanis did shock me few years ago but it was for my own benefit as it allowed me to read up on it. Recently, a US-educated medical doctor, whom I used to respect a lot for his experience and service in Karachi (Pakistan), told me that hes a "hard boiled egg and an atheist." He used to be quite religious in his prime, memorized parts of Quran, used to partake in religious service. I am not too sure now what to make of my previous emotions about him but it does seem to confirm my previous views regarding atheism in Muslim countries.

I am sure Turkey has something similar or something worse.

And I wonder why is Nature so interested in educational system reform of Pakistan regarding the preaching of evolution and what not. Seems to be an effort by the movers and shakers of scientific research (atheists) to influence the Muslim world. Maybe the works of dajjal. Here is the link to the published study. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/461038a.html

There is this MIT educated atheist "genius" physicist in Pakistan Dr. Pervez Hoodhboy, whose been a leading voice in Pakistan and abroad in this regards. He self-proclaims to be a messiah who has arisen to unveil the religious orthodoxy of Islam and how it has been against science quoting examples of Umar bin alKhattab (ra) in which he apparently throws away books of a conquered nation into the waters.
his article for those interested: http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc...ml?bypassSSO=1

criticism of his book: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/R...ezHoodbhoy.htm
Reply

Salafi1407
03-09-2011, 12:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Why is everyone so shocked? This is a man that has been persistent in his deviant views, he suggested that adam (a.h) had actual parents - who may have evolved from monkeys. Also made comments suggesting hijab is not compulsary.

The only reason he's getting death threats is because he won't leave his masjid even after huge petitions for him to get out. This has been going on for years.
I agree with this, I have heard of this extremely deviant guy. I mean obviously we can't make takfeer upon a person, but if a scholar sat down with him I do wonder what the results will be.

I am offended by the opening poster. He doesn't want to know about the topic itself but he is trying to highlight, or outline or point out that muslims are sending death threats - violent group of people.
Reply

Hiroshi
03-09-2011, 08:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

he suggested that adam (a.h) had actual parents - who may have evolved from monkeys.
Did he? I wasn't aware of that. Usually Muslims only accept animal evolution.
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Hiroshi
03-09-2011, 08:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ruhul

I am offended by the opening poster. He doesn't want to know about the topic itself but he is trying to highlight, or outline or point out that muslims are sending death threats - violent group of people.
Judge me offensive if you will. I am interested in Islamic beliefs since I meet many Muslims in my neighbourhood. I was more or less settled in my mind that Muslims accepted evolution (at least animal evolution) until I read this news. So I wondered if more knowledgeable people could explain things.

Now aadil77 has informed us that the imam was preaching human evolution, we have more light on the issue.
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Hiroshi
03-09-2011, 08:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan

doesn't almost anything that goes against a system of belief (be it religious or otherwise) cause a the same reaction from followers?
Yes, but I thought that Muslims, in general, accepted evolution. Now suddenly there are these outspoken ones who show that they do not. The issue must be over human evolution, not animal evolution.
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Hiroshi
03-09-2011, 08:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I can't help but think there is so much more to this than what is being reported.. I believe just a great part of this schism that is being deliberately created with one intention in mind..
Please explain more, Vale's Lily.
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Abu Junaid
03-09-2011, 08:55 AM
the issue is rather easy
1)what is the first stage in the evolution theory
2)what then is the first stage of a human being according to islam
if you can differentiate between this then it should be clear the division between theory and the islamic teachings

remember this though :darwin's theory is based on the so-called "Natural Selection"
Reply

Insaanah
03-09-2011, 12:03 PM
Nice, we have this whole thread without the OP being aware of what he actually said, and without a word of his regarding evolution being quoted.

Knowledge regained


In contrast to their forebears, modern Muslims have a childlike view of science, especially evolution. This needs to change

o Usama Hasan
o guardian.co.uk, Thursday 11 September 2008 13.30 BST
o Article history

Professor Richard Dawkins recently said that most Muslims were creationists, and their children are taught that the theory of evolution is wrong, which causes a huge problem in schools.

He's largely correct, and the Muslim world desperately needs to debate the matter properly without fear, since science can neither prove nor disprove God. Whereas the Christian world, where Charles Darwin first proposed his thesis, has had a century and a half to come to terms with the theory of evolution, it has only begun to be taught rather recently in the Muslim world, where faith and religious practice is still relatively strong.

No wonder then that the theory is opposed by some religious elements, especially those that are ignorant of science. Snazzy websites, videos and books produced by fundamentalist Muslim "creationists" such as those at www.harunyahya.com, are obscuring clear scientific thinking.

Creation or evolution? Many believers in God have no problem with an obvious solution: that God created man via evolution. Here is some explanation of this view from a Muslim perspective.
I have a background in physical sciences, not biological ones, but there are parallels. Just as we can see clear evidence for the fact that planets, stars and galaxies evolved very gradually over the last 13 billion years since the big bang and weren't just beamed into existence by God, it would seem intuitive that life in its breathtaking variety on Earth also arose through a gradual evolutionary processes. There are plenty of Muslim biologists who have no doubt about the essential correctness of evolutionary theory.

The Qur'an teaches that humanity began with Adam, whose wife Eve was made "of like nature". The raw materials from which Adam was created are variously described as dust, clay and water, ie a mixture of water and minerals found on earth and in its soil. God completed the creation of Adam, breathed his spirit into him and taught him the names of everything. Since the angels were ignorant of these names, he commanded them to bow down to Adam, to symbolise human superiority over angels due to our free will, intelligence, capacity to understand and express ourselves in eloquent language.

One problem is that many Muslims retain the simple picture that God created Adam from clay, much as a potter makes a statue, and then breathed into the lifeless statue and lo! it became a living human. This is a children's madrasa-level understanding and Muslims really have to move on as adults and intellectuals, especially given the very serious scientific heritage of the medieval Islamic civilisation.

Another objection that is sometimes posed is the following: doesn't evolution denigrate and insult all humans, but especially the prophets of God, by insisting that we all originate from apes? I reply that the theory doesn't insult anyone, but does remind us of the humble origins of our created form. This is nothing new or blasphemous, since numerous Qur'anic verses remind us that we are all created from "dust" via sexual discharges: "despised drops of water". Those verses clearly do not insult the prophets. Meanwhile, our spiritual form remains the most exalted, since it is from the spirit of God breathed into Adam: we exist for the most noble purpose of knowing and loving God, freely and after having been given a choice.

Another irony in this whole debate is that several medieval Islamic thinkers had ideas that were broadly similar to the theory of evolution. The 10th-century Persian philosopher Ibn Miskawayh may have had ideas about the natural world that were, broadly speaking, evolutionist. The 14th-century philosopher Ibn Khaldun wrote:

One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals.

Although Ibn Khaldun wasn't speaking directly about evolution in the modern sense, I don't think he would have had a major problem with Darwin's theory, judging from the passage above. But it is precisely the loss of the heritage of people like Ibn Khaldun that has led to the current, appalling state of science in the Muslim world and the Muslim consciousness.
Source

HOWEVER

With the Name of Allah, All-Merciful, Most Merciful

A FURTHER CLARIFICATION & RETRACTION


Further to my detailed statement dated 15th February 2011 about evolution and
veiling (hijab), I would like to state, after reflecting on the matter and
listening to the advice of others:

1. I regret and retract some of my statements in the past about the theory of
evolution, especially the inflammatory ones.

2. I do not believe that Adam, peace be upon him, had parents.

3. I seek Allah's forgiveness for my mistakes and apologise to others for any
offence caused.

Usama Hasan
London, Friday 4th March 2011
Source

So:
1. No, his former beliefs as stated above are not normal within Islam.
2. No, making death threats against someone is also not normal within Islam.
3. He has sought forgiveness from Allah, so his matter is now with Allah.

May Allah guide us all.

:sl:
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جوري
03-09-2011, 12:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Please explain more, Vale's Lily.
Just a way to secularize Muslims using their place of worship -- People don't and shouldn't learn of esoteric branches of science in their place of worship & when done should be so done by experts in the field and not under intellectual hijack .. Yeah I wanna be progressive and smart to fit into a status quo and not because any scientific understanding was borne of it.. According to suret Al-Kahf Allah swt hasn't made us a witness to the creation of heavens and earth & we haven't decoded such secrets.. so people really ought to quit behaving as if they do!~

all the best
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Hiroshi
03-09-2011, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

1. No, his former beliefs as stated above are not normal within Islam.
But belief in animal evolution is normal within Islam. Is that what you are saying?
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Hiroshi
03-10-2011, 07:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

Nice, we have this whole thread without the OP being aware of what he actually said, and without a word of his regarding evolution being quoted.
No reply to my question to you.

I would think that this is stating the obvious, but any OP in this section of the forum usually doesn't have all the facts and answers which is why they are seeking help and clarification. My thanks to you for your post.

It seems to me that the news report published in the Evening Standard this week is correct but doesn't give all of the facts. The general public (I do not include myself) regard anyone who does not accept evolution as a crank, woefully ignorant, fanatical and rather stupid. Hence the news report gives the impression that Islam keeps people in ignorance and that Islamic authorities and extremists are seeking to keep it that way, even resorting to death threats.

A great many Muslims however (every single one that I have spoken to anyway), do accept evolution in some form. So the news report appears to me to be unfair.


Having said all that, I will just mention that I am a Jehovah's Witness and we emphatically do not believe in evolution in any form.
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Insaanah
03-10-2011, 08:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I will just mention that I am a Jehovah's Witness and we emphatically do not believe in evolution in any form.
Thank you for clarifying your beliefs Hiroshi.

With regards to animals, my own personal belief is that "Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent." (24:45)

Beyond that, we are told not to talk concerning that of which we have no knowledge, which I, personally, do not. "...why do you argue about that of which you have no knowledge?.." (3:66, part)

So all I can say is that Allah knows best as to the processes, but I believe that He personally created every living thing. The process involved I do not know.

And Allah knows best.

Peace.
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Hiroshi
03-10-2011, 10:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

With regards to animals, my own personal belief is that "Allah has created every [living] creature from water." (24:45)
Thanks for the reply. Is this "water" to be understood as meaning the semen which carries the seed of the parent or does it mean literally just water?


I have just noticed a footnote to Surah 21:30 ("We made from water every living thing") in Yusuf Ali's translation that says (in part): "That all life began in water is also a conclusion to which our latest knowledge in biological science points ... there is the fact that land animals, like the higher vertebrates, including man, show, in their embryological history, organs like those of fishes, indicating the watery origin of their original habitat."

These statements in his footnote are only the conclusion of the evolution theory, however. They are not in agreement with creation. And, yes I know, I have been told many times that Yusuf Ali's comments are not authoritative. Maybe he should be branded an apostate also for seeming to suggest that Adam was descended from fishes!
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-10-2011, 12:29 PM
^why do you keep changing the theme of this thread :hmm: are you bored or something :hmm:
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M.B
03-10-2011, 12:43 PM
:sl:

People who say that islam has no problem with evolution that is wrong since when did apes become humans in islam. As a matter of fact there are numerous places in the Quran which Allah is relating the story of Adam and ibliis. We as muslims believe that Adam was first human being who was created so we shud abide by that rule and these theories shud not come into our Aqeedah.


:w:
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Hiroshi
03-10-2011, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
^why do you keep changing the theme of this thread :hmm: are you bored or something :hmm:
Don't upset yourself over it.
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Hiroshi
03-10-2011, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.B
:sl:

People who say that islam has no problem with evolution that is wrong since when did apes become humans in islam.

:w:
For that reason, Muslims reject human evolution. But many Muslims nevertheless accept animal evolution.
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جوري
03-10-2011, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
For that reason, Muslims reject human evolution. But many Muslims nevertheless accept animal evolution.
There is nothing to accept or reject.. it isn't an exact science, in fact it isn't a science at all, it goes more in the realm of science fiction.. the only place where this is truly applicable is to viruses, but then viruses aren't considered living organisms since they need a host to replicate!

all the best
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Insaanah
03-10-2011, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Is this "water" to be understood as meaning the semen which carries the seed of the parent or does it mean literally just water?
Most translate it as literally just water, because the Arabic word for water (maa') is used on it's own without any qualifying word.

In contrast 32:8 uses the word maa' with the word maheen, i.e. maa'in maheen, and this is translated as a despised fluid or liquid disdained (i.e. semen).

Pickthall
"Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid." (32:8)

And Allah knows best.

Peace.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-11-2011, 12:33 AM
Don't upset yourself over it.
what?

.........
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Hiroshi
03-11-2011, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

There is nothing to accept or reject.. it isn't an exact science, in fact it isn't a science at all, it goes more in the realm of science fiction..

all the best
I couldn't agree more.
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Hiroshi
03-11-2011, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

Most translate it as literally just water, because the Arabic word for water (maa') is used on it's own without any qualifying word.

In contrast 32:8 uses the word maa' with the word maheen, i.e. maa'in maheen, and this is translated as a despised fluid or liquid disdained (i.e. semen).

Pickthall
"Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid." (32:8)

And Allah knows best.

Peace.


Thanks for explaining.
Reply

Sigma
03-12-2011, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Not surprised. Usama Hasan is not a biologist, yet he believes what the biologists have to say. And it seems he is convinced by the "evidence of evolution" that does exist. Seems the caliber of evidence required to convince Usama is pretty subclass. I wonder what his father feels about his son: son gone astray? perhaps, who knows.

As the Muslim world prospers economically and financially, and most importantly educationally, the number of ex-Muslim atheists (who happen to be quite educated) will increase. Sort of a scary phenomenon. What's scarier is the authority these atheists will assume in the realm of politics and such. That does seem to be quite an issue for the upcoming generations of humans in Pakistan. There are atheists living in Saudi Arabia (what I naively used to think the Islamic homeland) right now. Seems disbelief in God is as spread across humanity, across all religions and people of all color, as homosexuality is. I just continue to pray that there are no underlying genetic causes for these modes of thinking.

From personal experience, the alarming rate of emergence of atheists among educated Pakistanis did shock me few years ago but it was for my own benefit as it allowed me to read up on it. Recently, a US-educated medical doctor, whom I used to respect a lot for his experience and service in Karachi (Pakistan), told me that hes a "hard boiled egg and an atheist." He used to be quite religious in his prime, memorized parts of Quran, used to partake in religious service. I am not too sure now what to make of my previous emotions about him but it does seem to confirm my previous views regarding atheism in Muslim countries.

I am sure Turkey has something similar or something worse.

And I wonder why is Nature so interested in educational system reform of Pakistan regarding the preaching of evolution and what not. Seems to be an effort by the movers and shakers of scientific research (atheists) to influence the Muslim world. Maybe the works of dajjal. Here is the link to the published study. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/461038a.html

There is this MIT educated atheist "genius" physicist in Pakistan Dr. Pervez Hoodhboy, whose been a leading voice in Pakistan and abroad in this regards. He self-proclaims to be a messiah who has arisen to unveil the religious orthodoxy of Islam and how it has been against science quoting examples of Umar bin alKhattab (ra) in which he apparently throws away books of a conquered nation into the waters.
his article for those interested: http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc...ml?bypassSSO=1

criticism of his book: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/R...ezHoodbhoy.htm
Why are they becoming atheist? Why did that medical become atheist?
Reply

Argamemnon
03-12-2011, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
the only thing I wanted to comment on was this 'traditional vs. modern' shbeal.. like extremist vs. moderate shbeal.. it is getting tired.. like you either have to be 'modernist' and accept that rocks sprung wings, sprung legs, sprung lungs sprung monkeys, sprung humans or you're a backward traditionalist.. I haven't seen any sane verifiable data based science enter the foyer .. just more meaningless words and alot of hoopla in the background.
I am a scientist, I hold a doctorate and have worked in research I have papers published (I Know how papers get published) I know that I can take the same set of data that I used to prove one thing to prove its exact opposite in a different period of time.. but even here we're not speaking of statistics and palpable variables we're speaking of unverifiable crap.. People don't even specify whether it is macro or micro-evolution they're speaking of before preaching crap or before feeling persecuted for preaching crap.. all they need to do is but spew and divide into categories.. it is baseless and pathetic!

:w:
Thank you so much, truer words were never spoken :) I have changed my mind about evolution; I think it exists but (obviously) has little to do with the atheist or Darwinist view... (don't tell Adnan Oktar though or else he might consider you a kafir)

:w:
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Argamemnon
03-12-2011, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Yes, but I thought that Muslims, in general, accepted evolution. Now suddenly there are these outspoken ones who show that they do not. The issue must be over human evolution, not animal evolution.
I don't know about other countries but in Turkey there are Islamic scholars who don't even object to the idea of human evolution. They claim that Hz. Adam was the first human with a soul and not necessarily the first "human". Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with them. I have to read and learn way more to form an opinion. Even then it will remain pure speculation since Allah knows best...

:w:
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hopeonallah
03-13-2011, 01:20 AM
assala mu aliqum brother and sister .

I don't have much knowledge about Darwin's theory of evolution . But I have one prove that Darwin him self saying his theory does not carry any weight . the prove is :-

Darwin's Letter to his friend, Thomas Thompton
Darwin's Letter to his friend, Thomas Thompton, 1861: “ I believe in the theory of evolution, not because I have proof, but because it helps me in classification, Morphology, Embryology, and rudimentary organs..."
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Hiroshi
03-13-2011, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon

I don't know about other countries but in Turkey there are Islamic scholars who don't even object to the idea of human evolution. They claim that Hz. Adam was the first human with a soul and not necessarily the first "human". Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with them. I have to read and learn way more to form an opinion. Even then it will remain pure speculation since Allah knows best...

:w:
Thank you Argamemnon. It seems then that there may be a wide range of different opinions on evolution within Islam. But I don't understand how these Islamic scholars can believe in human evolution (presumably based on fossil evidence on earth) when, according to Islam, Adam is supposed to have originated, not on earth but in heaven.
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Hiroshi
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hopeonallah
assala mu aliqum brother and sister .

I don't have much knowledge about Darwin's theory of evolution . But I have one prove that Darwin him self saying his theory does not carry any weight . the prove is :-

Darwin's Letter to his friend, Thomas Thompton
Darwin's Letter to his friend, Thomas Thompton, 1861: “ I believe in the theory of evolution, not because I have proof, but because it helps me in classification, Morphology, Embryology, and rudimentary organs..."
So by Darwin's own admission he had no proof! That is very interesting. Hopeonallah, do you have any references or links to show where this information is documented?
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Trumble
03-13-2011, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I don't know about other countries but in Turkey there are Islamic scholars who don't even object to the idea of human evolution. They claim that Hz. Adam was the first human with a soul and not necessarily the first "human".
What an incredibly sensible interpretation. It preserves the theists view of mankind being somehow special without having to ignore perhaps the best evidenced scientic theory in history.


format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
So by Darwin's own admission he had no proof! That is very interesting. Hopeonallah, do you have any references or links to show where this information is documented?
Of course he didn't, and neither has anyone since. Nor has anyone 'proof' of quantum mechanics, relativity or even that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You can only ever disprove scientific theories, not 'prove' them. Science is about evidence, and what Darwin is saying is that the theory of evolution by natural selection facilitates classification of living organisms in a way that simply wasn't possible before it. In other words, that the theory has significant explanatory power in relation to why certain species share common attributes.
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Muhammad
03-13-2011, 09:05 PM
:sl: / Greetings,


I really recommend the following two articles as they shed a lot of light on this discussion:


The Prophet Adam and Human Evolution


The Modernists in Light of Evolution
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SalamChristian
03-17-2011, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
i would imagine that that's the same (or similar) treatment that a priest would receive if he were preaching the same thing, no?
I don't think so. There are a lot of priests who teach some pretty bizarre stuff, honestly, but most of us just don't pay any attention to them. It varies; there is no general rule across the board. But I haven't heard of any death threats over this kind of stuff.

If any of my Muslim Brothers and sisters have a different perspective of religion in the west, please post a link or something. Sometimes you need distance to have a good perspective.

Salaam
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SalamChristian
03-17-2011, 06:06 PM
To give an example and a basis from my personal experience for the previous post:

there is a preacher who comes to my college here in Missouri maybe once a year, and he pisses a lot of us off. He stands on campus telling each and every person that they are going to hell, when he doesn't know anything about us or what purpose Allah (swt) has saved us for or how we will be judged at the last day. He's waaaay too judgmental and self-assured. As far as I know he has never been violently attacked. On one campus they formed a human chain around him and turned their backs on him to make him get the point lol.

Then again, I might have a biased perspective, being in college in the Midwest...

Salaam Alaikum
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CosmicPathos
05-08-2011, 03:50 AM
For anyone interested, article on Usama Hasan

http://www.aqidah.com/creed/articles...n---part-3.cfm
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Impey
05-23-2011, 09:41 AM
My first post but I found this in another board, it is I think a summary because of copywrite issues but I checked the original and it looks fine. These are Usamas own words

Usama Hasan is a senior lecturer in the department of business information systems at Middlesex University and an Imam at the al-Tawid mosque in Leyton, East London.

His trouble started three years ago when he write an article that we need to go beyond the simplistic idea held by many Muslims that God created Adam from clay and breathed life into him - this is the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran an is still the dominant position. Usama was a fundamentalist for many years, but came to the conclusion that evolution is entirely compatible with the Qu'ran and that alternative interpretations of the creation story are valid.

In December the visiting influential Saudi scholar Salir al-Sadlan was asked whether someone who believed in evolution was fit to lead prayers and he said no. An online petition was set up asking for Usama to be removed from the mosque where he had been a prayer leader for 25 years. In response Usama held a lecture to clarify his position that evolution does not undermine scripture. The lecture was disrupted by a small gang of fanatics and ha to be abandoned.

The situation has become serious and a leaflet was handed out saying that anybody believing in evolution or who propagates it must be killed. *These people are pro-violence and this is worrying because Usama has young children and now has to consider extra security for the rest of his life.

The default position is that most Muslims are taught that evolution is wrong, unproven and blasphemy. When Muslims see nature programmes then tend to see the presenters as unbelievers so they cannot be trusted.

Usama retracted his views but the retraction says he misjudged how Togo about explaining these things. Sooner or later evolution has to be addresses but sadly it is a no go-area with clerics so Usama is abandoning his attempt to reconcile it with the Qu'ran until things settle down - he cannot risk his life and family over this issue. Happily some have said that although they do not agree with him he should have the right to discuss the issue.

Finally, it is a sad fact that many Muslim scientists will not speak out on the issue for fear of the reaction they will get.

Ref: New Scientist page 29 No 2808 dated 16 April 2011
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CosmicPathos
05-23-2011, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
My first post but I found this in another board, it is I think a summary because of copywrite issues but I checked the original and it looks fine. These are Usamas own words

Usama Hasan is a senior lecturer in the department of business information systems at Middlesex University and an Imam at the al-Tawid mosque in Leyton, East London.

His trouble started three years ago when he write an article that we need to go beyond the simplistic idea held by many Muslims that God created Adam from clay and breathed life into him - this is the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran an is still the dominant position. Usama was a fundamentalist for many years, but came to the conclusion that evolution is entirely compatible with the Qu'ran and that alternative interpretations of the creation story are valid.

In December the visiting influential Saudi scholar Salir al-Sadlan was asked whether someone who believed in evolution was fit to lead prayers and he said no. An online petition was set up asking for Usama to be removed from the mosque where he had been a prayer leader for 25 years. In response Usama held a lecture to clarify his position that evolution does not undermine scripture. The lecture was disrupted by a small gang of fanatics and ha to be abandoned.

The situation has become serious and a leaflet was handed out saying that anybody believing in evolution or who propagates it must be killed. *These people are pro-violence and this is worrying because Usama has young children and now has to consider extra security for the rest of his life.

The default position is that most Muslims are taught that evolution is wrong, unproven and blasphemy. When Muslims see nature programmes then tend to see the presenters as unbelievers so they cannot be trusted.

Usama retracted his views but the retraction says he misjudged how Togo about explaining these things. Sooner or later evolution has to be addresses but sadly it is a no go-area with clerics so Usama is abandoning his attempt to reconcile it with the Qu'ran until things settle down - he cannot risk his life and family over this issue. Happily some have said that although they do not agree with him he should have the right to discuss the issue.

Finally, it is a sad fact that many Muslim scientists will not speak out on the issue for fear of the reaction they will get.

Ref: New Scientist page 29 No 2808 dated 16 April 2011

yea we dont believe in fairy tales of primordial soup and swimming noodle monsters creating humans through evolution.
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MSalman
05-29-2011, 05:55 PM
something for humour

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truthseeker63
06-03-2011, 03:11 PM
This is a good article.
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IslamicRevival
08-19-2011, 03:13 AM
No matter what the man believes in, A Muslim should not be sending death threats to him, its disgusting and totally uncalled for. What hope have we got as an Ummah if were threatening to kill each other, We need to stop this foolishness and respect other peoples opinions.

There will be 73 sects in Islam as Allah Azzawajal and his Rasool Peace be upon him told us and there is nothing we can do to change it. Accept it as it is and move on., Allah Azzawajal is the ultimate judge
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جوري
08-20-2011, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
My first post
I like that you start all of your posts with lies 'Hugo' it is telling of content and character!!!

best,
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hawa14
10-19-2011, 02:38 PM
This is the one thing I hate about our culture. Our people are too quick to start threatening, anyone they disagree with, with death. That's not the way of Islam or the Sunnah, and just makes muslims, in general, look barbaric. It's like the whole thing with Rushdie and the Satanic Verses. I extremely dislike Rushdie because I disagree with his opinions and how he chooses to use his position to spread negativity and incite hatred. However the way the muslim community handled the publication of that book was ridiculous. The Prophet Muhammed (saw) was always calm and peaceful even when he (saw) saw people disrespecting our religion, he (saw) didn't threaten a man when he (saw) caught him urinating in the mosque, or when the people of Ta'if went to throw stones at him (saw), he (saw) did not retaliate but prayed for Allah (swt) to forgive them and show them the right way. If our Prophet (saw) the most pious of all muslims didn't get angry and threaten to kill people when they insulted our religion then what gives us the right to? By being so forgiving and patient the Prophet (saw) was able to gain unanimous respect for our religion. By being aggressive, impulsive, and crude, we are only promoting a bad name for our religion. Religious followers are often considered homogeneous, we all therefore have a duty to act in a positive way because we are all representing our religion, simply by being a muslim. Besides this imam didn't do or say anything wrong - one can believe in the evolution theory and Islam. One does not invalidate the other. I'm guessing most of the people who have expressed anger over this don't even know what the theory of evolution is.
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Insaanah
10-19-2011, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hawa14
Besides this imam didn't do or say anything wrong
Saying that people who believe that Prophet Adam alayhissalaam was created as per what Allah has said in the Quran, have a children's level of understanding, and suggesting that those who believe that he (Adam alayhissalam) originated from apes, are adults and intellectuals, IS wrong.
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hawa14
I extremely dislike Rushdie because I disagree with his opinions and how he chooses to use his position to spread negativity and incite hatred.
AFAIK, during khulafaur rasyidin periods, apostates who purposefully spread negativity and incited hatred and painted lies against Islam were sentenced to death.
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MartyrX
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
We really must learn to move beyond the death threats. It simply adds ammunition to those who want us to look like barbarians.
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Jedi_Mindset
10-20-2011, 06:09 PM
Yes, This is the state of the ummah today. And i agree with the post above, the kufar will sure love this news.
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 11:50 PM
so does the imam believe his ancestors had seks with monkeys?
which type were they? apes or orangutans? does he have a pic of one of them on his mantelpiece?

this traitor obviously has a political agenda and is a tool of the globalist kuffar:



these kuffar:



and ironically his name's Usama aswell - they'll call him the "good usama"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ
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GuestFellow
10-21-2011, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
this traitor obviously has a political agenda and is a tool of the globalist kuffar:
Salaam,

What is this political agenda? How is he a tool? What is this globalist kuffar?

Too vague. Present evidence as well...other than the video. o_o
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Abz2000
10-21-2011, 06:17 PM
the video says it in his own words - he says those who illegally invaded afghanistan and are murdering Muslims are "doing a good job".

since you've studied law - i'm sure you'll acknowledge that the invasion of afghanistan is a criminal one - just like libya and iraq,

the bush administration stalled an independent investigation into the facts behind 9/11 and attacked afghanistan with no real evidence.

the 9/11 Commission, was set up on November 27, 2002, "to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks

The War in Afghanistan began on October 7, 2001

this is clearly not an islamic agenda - since this is what the Quran says:
O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news,
ascertain the truth,
lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.
Quran 49:6

the globalist kuffar are these:

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hawa14
10-22-2011, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

Saying that people who believe that Prophet Adam alayhissalaam was created as per what Allah has said in the Quran, have a children's level of understanding, and suggesting that those who believe that he (Adam alayhissalam) originated from apes, are adults and intellectuals, IS wrong.

You're right. I'm sorry I didn't think it through properly when I posted. I was thinking more along the lines of The Big Bang Theory and Islam not necessarily contradicting each other. I still don't think it warrants death threats though. Why not try to explain to the Imam how he is wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
AFAIK, during khulafaur rasyidin periods, apostates who purposefully spread negativity and incited hatred and painted lies against Islam were sentenced to death.
But as Muslims we are also required to follow the laws of the country we live in or move out of that country if we find it conflicts with our religious beliefs/obligations. This was done in England, which is not a Muslim country and does not follow Sharia. Second this still doesn't change the fact that the Prophet (saw) was extremely forgiving even to those who purposefully incited hatred and spread negativity. As Muslims we should take the high road, keeping a dignified restraint and expressing our disagreement in a calm manner would promote Islam as a peaceful religion to the masses, and ultimately this should be our aim. When dealing with things on a global scale our actions should benefit Islam, and the way the Rushdie ordeal was handled did not benefit Islam.
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Abz2000
10-22-2011, 03:17 AM
i believe it (the rushdie fiasco) did, it made hateful commentators realise that Muslims will react, and that they'd spend their entire lives watching their backs.
do you know the filth he came out with regarding prophet Ibrahim (as) and the mothers of the believers (ra)?
wouldn't you or your brother or father react if someone said it about your own mother?

"And did not Allah check one set of people by means of another,
the earth would indeed be full of mischief;
but Allah is full of Bounty to all the worlds"
-Qur'an 2:251







we need to present Islam in all it's aspects - not give false hopes of teddy bears and cuddliness and always turning the other cheek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka'b_ibn_al-Ashraf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedit..._ibn_'Atik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)



we should not be like the kuffar and pretend to be "tolerant" while secretly hypocritically assassinating people who speak truth.
and let them (the kuffar) not pretend that they are so "tolerant"................they just murdered Anwar Awlaki.
and the zionists murdered an Islamic leader in Dubai.


The wives of the Prophet Muhammad, who are reverently called the "Mothers of Muslims", are compared with prostitutes. So Rushdie calls the mothers of the 1,5 billion Muslims *****s. Salman-al- Farsi and Bilal, two reputable early Muslims, are depicted as profligates. He also makes racist remarks calling Bilal a big black monster. Rules and practices having no basis in Islam are false attributed to it and real laws are ridiculed, not argued against.
But not only did he take liberties with Muslim's sacred honour, Rushdie insults Jews and Christians as well. Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him), who is the father of the three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is described as a "b******". So is Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) is called "Hitler", and the Virgin Mary (peace be upon her), a *****. He also refers to their mothers as "Harlots". Because of its wild implications and virulent language, the novel constitutes an unprecedented assault on Islam, and, indirectly, on the Abrahamic religions preceding it.
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