Can Islam be modernized? Should it be?

[Grace Seeker]

The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:

That depends on your definition of modernization of course. Islam has the ability to adapt to all ages and changes because it's the truth revealed by Allah. If modernization means changing the fundamentals of Islam (to please others or for whatever reason), then no. If modernization means correcting wrong beliefs and traditions, which were actually never part of Islam in the first place, but added later (which most Muslims are unaware of), then yes. But that's a seperate topic altogether.

</p>
What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.

One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

[Umm AbdurRahman]

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.

One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

First of all, i appreciate you for asking this question.

Islam is the Way of Life. The Glorious Quran was not revealed for a particular age or time. It is meant for the Whole of Mankind, of any century, whether it be 2011 or 2050!!
According to your explanation of "modernization", The Holy Quran and the teachings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) already discuss these issues in detail. Therefore, Islam is COMPLETE. I do not think that adjectives like "modernized" are even required to describe it.
I would like to quote the following references from The Glorious Quran and The teachings of the Prophet Muhammad SAW;

1) Education-

the first verse to be revealed to the Prophet Muhammad was "Iqra" which means "Read". (Noble Qur'an 96:1) . this itself emphasises on the importance of Education.

2) Equality of men and women-

Allah (SWT) says in Surat Al-Hujurat, "O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most Taqwa among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." (Noble Qur'an 49:13)

The Lord of the Worlds has created Men and Women to play different roles in life. The role of man is to provide protection and maintenance to a woman and the role of a woman is to receive these to be successful in her duties.
“Men have authority over women, on account of that by means of which Allah has made the one of them excel the other, and on account of what they spend out of their property..” (4:34)
"Men have authority over women " means that Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. Allah has made the men excel in terms of physical abilities and mental/emotional strength. This is so proven by Science.

3)Rights of the workers-
the Messenger of ALLAH (peace and blessings of ALLAH be upon him) said: “Give the worker his wages before his sweat dries.”
(Ibn Maajah:2443)

There is much more information that i would like to post. Do let me know if you need any more clarifications. :)

[Cabdullahi]

modernize 'isalm' all you want but islam was modern before and is modern today and will be modern tomorrow

[Tyrion]

Grace Seeker, you might enjoy a video I posted a while back that tackled a somewhat similar topic. I'll link you to it here, and if you find the time to watch it (or even just parts of it, as it's fairly long...) I'd love to hear what you think about it.

Anyway, as for your question... It obviously depends what you mean by modernization. Changing fundamental principles is probably not going to happen (nor does it need to happen), but in other regards, I think some change needs to take place. For one thing, I've noticed that many people take very old ideas/rulings that were made at a certain time, under certain contexts/circumstances, and they try to apply them to modern life in the Western world. This could happen due to misunderstandings of meaning or context (which seems to be the case for many readings of Hadith by us lay people), or just because nobody has bothered to look at issues in light of the "modern world".

So yes, we need modernization in the sense that we need our scholars to sit down and begin to look at things from the perspective of our current times... A reinterpretation of texts should take place that views them in light of the world as it is now... I know people might freak out when I use the word "reinterpretation", but it's not like I'm not implying that Islam is wrong... Just that certain rulings/understandings were for certain times, and that much of Islamic law is more like a guideline (at least, based on the little I know), and so it is flexible enough to adapt and address the needs of any time, and any group. The problem is, we haven't had our scholars focus on helping us understand how these guidelines and rules should be understood in light of modernity, and so you have many people holding positions that would have been perfectly valid hundreds of years ago, but that don't really apply anymore...

Ah, I hope that made sense... I should sum it up just in case: Basically my point was that we need a new wave of scholarship to go over things in light of our times, so in that respect we do need to "modernize" Islam. :p

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[GuestFellow]

^ Salaam,

Can you please give us examples of what you think applied in the past which does not need to be applied now?

[Perseveranze]

Pretty sure when Islam came, it Modernized civilization. We aren't where we were many centuries ago, but our system can never fail us, it's just the people who apply it in their own way that can.

Basically, the corrupt Leaders who want their own benefit in things hurt the progression of the Muslim Ummah. There was a time where there was money being heavily funded in Universities and places of education and people from all around the world used to come to the Muslims for answers, but that all changed once leaders and people turned away from the Creator and decided to gain their own power, their own way of doing things, money going into wars and military, thats when the Great empire fell. I don't see it as an coincidence that there's so much problem happening in the world today, especially in the Muslim lands.

I am sure things will change once people decide to change themselves, as the Quran tells us to.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

How can the Truth be changed/distorted/altered?

[LavaDog]

the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government

Before the modern age most Islamic government leaders were elected, and they have a history of being very tolerant of opposing views and of homosexuality. It was only after the Ottoman emprire adopted European views that they began suppressing opposing views.

[tigerkhan]

i think islam has flexibility but it cant be modernized. the main reason for this is we blv more on ahra than this temporary world.

[Little_Lion]

The school that I have taken online courses at in Pakistan is Salafi, and educates that we should follow only the word of Allah in the infallible Qur'an and our Prophet (saw). I consider them to be a very modern school, in a very traditional manner; they teach that there is nothing that needs to be "modernized" in Islam, as the word of Allah is perfect as it is - it is the interpretations of later peoples who have, in a sense, held back some Muslims from "getting with the times".

[Ali Mujahidin]

As salaam mualaikum.

Islam is perfect. To change anything that is perfect is to make it imperfect. If you cannot find the answer in Islam, it is because you do not know where to look, not because the answer is not there. You have to live Islam to find the answers. Insha Allah.

[titus]

Before the modern age most Islamic government leaders were elected

Can you provide your source for this information?

[Woodrow]

Peace Gene,

Interesting question. I think our answers will vary based upon how each of us understand what is meant by modernizing. I may see things different than the way others do. But I see the question as being "Can Modernization adapt to Islam?"

I believe that can be done as virtually all things in this world can be used in either a haram or halal way. The choice is ours. We should not shun something simply because it is modern or a modern thought. We should instead seek a way to use the modernization of mankind as a means to better serve Allaah(swt). We need avoid only that which is haram, if it is halal and of benefit, use it.

[selsebil]

Dear Brother,

Quran provides the best principles necessary for human's personal and social life.Because Quran is not the philosophy of a human mind.Quran is the word of the Creator of Universe who knows the true nature of humanity.This is the Qur’an’s youth. It preserves its freshness and youth every age as though newly revealed. In fact, the Qur’an has to have perpetual youth since as a pre-eternal address, it addresses at once all the levels of mankind in every age. And that is how it has been seen and is seen. Even, although all the centuries are different with regard to ideas and capacity, it as though looks to each particularly, and teaches it. Man’s works and laws grow old like man, they change and are changed. But the rulings and laws of the Qur’an are so firm and well-founded that they increase in strength as the centuries pass.


This fact is proven in Risale-i Nur by Scholar Bediuzzaman Said Nursi.Here is just a small comparison:

For example, despite all its societies for good works, all its establishments for the teaching of ethics, all its severe discipline and regulations, civilization has been unable to contest the All-Wise Qur’an on two of its matters, and has been defeated by them. These two matters are:
"Be steadfast in performing the prayers, and give zakat," Qur’an, 2:43,
and,
"God has permitted trade and forbidden usury." Qur’an, 2:275.


Just as the source of mankind’s revolutions is one phrase, so another phrase is the origin of all immorality.
First Phrase: “So long as I’m full, what is it to me if others die of hunger.”
Second Phrase: “You work so that I can eat.”
Yes, the upper and lower classes in human society, that is, the rich and the poor, live at peace when in equilibrium. The basis of that equilibrium is compassion and kindness in the upper classes, and respect and obedience in the lower classes. Now, the first phrase has incited the upper classes to practise oppression, immorality, and mercilessness. And just as the second has driven the lower classes to hatred, envy, and to contend the upper classes, and has negated man’s tranquillity for several centuries, so too this century, as the result of the struggle between capital and labour, it has been the cause of the momentous events of Europe well-known by all. Thus, together with all its societies for good works, all its establishments for the teaching of ethics, all its severe discipline and regulations, it could not reconcile these two classes of mankind, nor could it heal the two fearsome wounds in human life. The Qur’an, however, eradicates the first phrase with its injunction to pay zakat, and heals it. While it uproots the second phrase with its prohibition on usury and interest, and cures that. Indeed, the Qur’anic verse stands at the door of the world and declares usury and interest to be forbidden. It reads out its decree to mankind, saying: “In order to close the door of strife, close the door of usury and interest!” It forbids its students to enter it.

http://www.lightofquran.info/25word.htm

[peace_maker]

Islam is perfect. Everything in it is clear.
As for modernization, I think as time is changing, we are also changing with it.
So I don't think modernization fits in. :-\

[Thinker]

As salaam mualaikum.

Islam is perfect. To change anything that is perfect is to make it imperfect. If you cannot find the answer in Islam, it is because you do not know where to look, not because the answer is not there. You have to live Islam to find the answers. Insha Allah.

No it isn’t, if Islam (the Qu’ran and Hadith) is perfect why does it need interpretation. Surely something that is perfect doesn’t need explanation. Something requiring interpretation and explanation is something which is unclear or ambiguous; something that is unclear and ambiguous can’t be perfect.

[greenvalley]

Assalaam,

Islam does not need modernization since Quran's principles are valid till doomsday.

[- Qatada -]

No it isn’t, if Islam (the Qu’ran and Hadith) is perfect why does it need interpretation. Surely something that is perfect doesn’t need explanation. Something requiring interpretation and explanation is something which is unclear or ambiguous; something that is unclear and ambiguous can’t be perfect.

So tell me, why do teaches teach Math? Why is anything taught, if explanation isn't needed?

Why does Law and constitution need to be interpreted according to the context of a situation?


If you agree that interpretation is required - then the same is said about Guidance from God.

[Ali Mujahidin]

No it isn’t, if Islam (the Qu’ran and Hadith) is perfect why does it need interpretation

Islam is perfect. However, you and I are not. So Islam has to be explained and interpreted for us. Just because you and I are not perfect has absolutely no bearing on the perfection of Islam. As a very rough analogy, just because, say, nuclear physics, is incomprehensible, perhaps, to you does not prove that nuclear physics is just a bunch of baloney.

[Thinker]

So tell me, why do teaches teach Math? Why is anything taught, if explanation isn't needed?

Why does Law and constitution need to be interpreted according to the context of a situation?


If you agree that interpretation is required - then the same is said about Guidance from God.

Maths, like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems. Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned. If I was your maths teacher and used confusing and contradictory language in teaching you maths it is likely that you would not understand and I would be described as a bad teacher. The Qur’an is a message, it is supposed to be the teacher telling us what we should do / how we should do it (if you like telling us how to solve the problem). The Qur’an isn’t supposed to be the problem it is supposed to be the solution. If you can’t understand the solution because it is so ambiguous it needs explaining it is not a good solution and consequenty the person delivering that solution could be described as bad teacher.

[Thinker]

Islam is perfect. However, you and I are not. So Islam has to be explained and interpreted for us. Just because you and I are not perfect has absolutely no bearing on the perfection of Islam. As a very rough analogy, just because, say, nuclear physics, is incomprehensible, perhaps, to you does not prove that nuclear physics is just a bunch of baloney.

That’s the kind of explanation I would expect someone to give to a child to fob them off. God knows what man is capable of understanding and everything else there is to know. It cannot be beyond the powers of God to deliver a message that is unequivocal and unambiguous. To say that the Qur’an is perfect as God’s message to mankind on how they should live their lives but mankind isn’t capable of understanding is ridiculous. If I were God, knowing all the confusion that would follow, I would have delivered a simpler set of instructions – something like the 10 commandments.

And, nuclear physics is not incomprehensible it is perfectly clear study of a phenomina. Also - see answer on Maths above

[- Qatada -]

Maths, like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems. Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned. If I was your maths teacher and used confusing and contradictory language in teaching you maths it is likely that you would not understand and I would be described as a bad teacher. The Qur’an is a message, it is supposed to be the teacher telling us what we should do / how we should do it (if you like telling us how to solve the problem). The Qur’an isn’t supposed to be the problem it is supposed to be the solution. If you can’t understand the solution because it is so ambiguous it needs explaining it is not a good solution and consequenty the person delivering that solution could be described as bad teacher.

Islam; " like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems." "Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned."

The Quran is a methodology, which solves problems in different times and contexts, it needs to be taught by those who are qualified and understand it well, so that the laypeople can learn it and implement it.

[3rddec]

The truth never needs modernising; so as a Catholic I can understand the Muslim position of we don't need modernising but the world needs to accept the truth and change. Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.

Love and Respect

[Ali Mujahidin]

nuclear physics is not incomprehensible

Really? Do you mean to say that there is no such thing as a person failing a course in nuclear physics? Perhaps you think that would be the fault of a bad nuclear physics teacher? If so, how would a bad nuclear physics teacher make nuclear physics itself bad or ambiguous or confusing?

As a very rough analogy, the law states that you are to drive on the left side or the right side of the road, as the case might be. Just because someone insists that the wrong side is the right side (and creates a lot of nasty accidents in the process) does not make the law wrong.

Hope this is useful. Insha Allah.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Where is the true face of Islam

Good question. I, too, am seeking the answer to that. I try to find out by living Islam according to the Quran and the Ahadith, as closely as I can. So far so good. I am fully convinced that Islam is the right way to live. Islam must be practiced in toto. We cannot pick and choose to practice only the parts which we like.

As an example, there are people who practice polygamy and justify their action by quoting a Quranic verse.

Surah 4 Verse 3, translates roughly as:

And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

What they conveniently overlooked is that at the end of the very verse they quoted, Allah says that if one is unable to be fair to all the wives, it is better to marry only one.

Hope this is useful. Insha Allah.

[Thinker]

Good question. I, too, am seeking the answer to that. I try to find out by living Islam according to the Quran and the Ahadith, as closely as I can. Islam must be practiced in toto. We cannot pick and choose to practice only the parts which we like.

We agree on something :statisfie One of the missing members of this forum was a chap who used the name Dawuduk. I disagreed with him on almost everything he said except that point - 'you can't pick and choose which bits of Islam you choose to adhere to' and 'you can't search for a scholar who tells gives you an interpretation you like but which is contrary to the written word' He is now living somewhere in dar al Islam having accepted the requirments of Qur'an verse 4:97 - what about you?

[Hamza Asadullah]

The truth never needs modernising; so as a Catholic I can understand the Muslim position of we don't need modernising but the world needs to accept the truth and change. Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.

Love and Respect

The true face of Islam will come when there is a proper shariah in the Muslim world and not just a village or two adopting shariah practices without a shariah set up. Once there is a proper shariah system then all will see thre true face of Islam and that is when Islam will once again lead the world like it did before. Gods law is the ONLY true law because man made law is flawed and everyone is out for themselves.

Islamic Law is complete and perfect and covers all aspects of human life.

The Shari'ah is permanent for all people all the time. It does not change with time and conditions. For example, drinking alcohol and gambling are not allowed under Islamic law. No-one can change this for it is a law that is valid for all time and for all places.

Allah is All-knowing and All-powerful; He is the most Wise and His laws are the best and are complete for he is the Creator and His laws are for the whole of creation and all nations, all countries and for all time for they are universal.

Surely Allah is above all needs. He is not dependent on anything, so His laws are for the good of all people and not for a few, selfish people in "so called democracys" which is clearly just a front for it has no substance in the real world and will perish like all man made laws.

Do not judge the shariah by what you have heard of practices by a few backward villages. It is nothing like that for it is the fairest system on earth which caters for all no matter which creed or religion or faith. It protects all and is not just for the elite like in democracys.

O mankind! There has come to you a direction from your Lord and a prescription for the minds,- a guidance and a beneficence for those who believe. [10:57]

[Hamza Asadullah]

That’s the kind of explanation I would expect someone to give to a child to fob them off. God knows what man is capable of understanding and everything else there is to know. It cannot be beyond the powers of God to deliver a message that is unequivocal and unambiguous. To say that the Qur’an is perfect as God’s message to mankind on how they should live their lives but mankind isn’t capable of understanding is ridiculous. If I were God, knowing all the confusion that would follow, I would have delivered a simpler set of instructions – something like the 10 commandments.

And, nuclear physics is not incomprehensible it is perfectly clear study of a phenomina. Also - see answer on Maths above

We have been given 5 commandments to follow, isnt that less than 10? Then 5 commandments is easier to follow than 10.

[Ami]

I don't think that Islam needs to be modernised because I don't think it is old fashioned! People always consider religion to be an old fashioned thing that can't keep up with the age of technology and our so called modern lives. Just because our way of life has changed and the world has become more globalised does not mean Islam is not modern and can't deal with the new problems that arise in society today.

[Tyrion]

Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.

As I said on the first page of this thread (which you should have read) this is what we need our scholars to be doing...

[Ali Mujahidin]

dar al Islam

Where exactly is dar el Islam? Myself I have been doing hijrah ever since I reverted to Islam. Next month I will be going on the road, by foot, for four months to do da'wah work. Insha Allah. Is that what you are asking me about?

[Zafran]

Where exactly is dar el Islam? Myself I have been doing hijrah ever since I reverted to Islam. Next month I will be going on the road, by foot, for four months to do da'wah work. Insha Allah. Is that what you are asking me about?

Dar al Islam tradtionally was the abode where Islam was being practiced so it was seen as a refuge for the believers, the weak, widow etc etc - Today however things a lot complicated

Furthermore The Quran as muslims believe it to be is a revelation of God and the main points are clear as Ice even the disbeliver can understand the main messege of the Quran.

The Quran has a worldview and way of looking at life which is God centric, being selfless, helping the weak and the poor consistently, focusing more on good character all in the name of the Divine - The modern world on the other hand is different agendas (consumer society, reducing man to material worth, rejecting the sacred etc).

[Ali Mujahidin]

Dar al Islam tradtionally was the abode where Islam was being practiced so it was seen as a refuge for the believers, the weak, widow etc etc - Today however things a lot complicated

JazakuLLah for the information. I think I know which Dar al Islam you are talking about.

When I was learning about Islam from a friend before, he told me that Muslims do not live in isolation from society in general. He said that Muslims should live like fish in the sea. Even though the fish is immersed in salt water 24/7, the fish does not become salty. Since then I have been learning from various ustaz and the message is generally the same. The real hijrah today is internal. Everyday we are encouraged to hijrah from non-Muslim practices to Muslim practices. The Holy Prophet spent a decade preparing the Sahabah for the hijrah to Medina. So we are encouraged spend the rest of our lives following the example of the Holy Prophet and the Sahabah to prepare ourselves for the final hijrah to jana. Said preparation entails practicing more and more of the teachings of Islam with each passing day that takes us closer and closer to the grave. Insha Allah.

[Zafran]

JazakuLLah for the information. I think I know which Dar al Islam you are talking about.

When I was learning about Islam from a friend before, he told me that Muslims do not live in isolation from society in general. He said that Muslims should live like fish in the sea. Even though the fish is immersed in salt water 24/7, the fish does not become salty. Since then I have been learning from various ustaz and the message is generally the same. The real hijrah today is internal. Everyday we are encouraged to hijrah from non-Muslim practices to Muslim practices. The Holy Prophet spent a decade preparing the Sahabah for the hijrah to Medina. So we are encouraged spend the rest of our lives following the example of the Holy Prophet and the Sahabah to prepare ourselves for the final hijrah to jana. Said preparation entails practicing more and more of the teachings of Islam with each passing day that takes us closer and closer to the grave. Insha Allah.

Salaam

True there are no places that can be called dar al Islam expect the Muslims that are practcing the deen and they are all over the place.

peace

[greenhill]

Some very interesting comments here.

In a nutshell, what I see (a bit of a pre qualifier here) is very much like the old and the new, if you are based on the old media platform like books, magazines, news papers and radio/tv, you will be left out and can never get into the modern communication platforms. You cannot be halfway. You are either in the new multi media network or not.

In Islam, we can accept certain 'decrees' as it is based on the faith, whereas those who are not muslims, will have a tough time dealing with them. Hence the subjects cannot come to a close as there is a gap that seems unbridgeable.

Taking this thought a bit further, we have to ask why were the laws made by man different from the scriptural ones? In my understanding it is as a result of the intentions of the people in the past.

Let us take the laws governing commerce according to the Quran. It says something very simple,

Do not over charge (making excessive profits)
Do not hoard (make goods scarce and therefore charge exorbitant prices)
Do not short change (cheat)
Do not be wasteful (and extravagant)
Be charitable (with the profits you earned)

(I think there are one or two more items but I cannot remember off hand) But what it really deals with here are on the individual basis where trading etc was done person to person before. However, how does a person circumnavigate these 'laws'?

Easy, they established a new way to do business. They incorporated laws to accept the establishment of companies and then the "recognize" these companies as being an 'entity' that can transact as though they are people. Now, the platform is there where they can 'do' as they like and put the 'blame' on the company. It is the company that charges excessively, it is the company that does all the things that was banned by the scriptures etc.

Fast forward many generations, we now have money and interests and laws done to reduce the impact of religious doctrines on everyday life.

So, in brief, the laws that were made was to facilitate the break up of religious hold on people coupled with the education system that teaches only secularist beliefs. Hence, in my humble opinion, it not the Quran and the Hadiths cannot be modernized, but it looks like the intention of the modernization is to eliminate religion altogether.




Peace :shade:

[Karl]

The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:</p>
What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.

One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;1418172]The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:</p>

Are you a "modern Christian" that believes in "Cultural Marxism", the United Nations "human rights" dogmas or a Christian that follows Jesus Christ and the tenets of the New Testament? Have you modernised yourself right out of your religion? Think about it, does the Bible talk about the things you say? Did Jesus preach the things you said? Or are those things you have said just modern secularist socialist catch cries? If Islam adopts these modernisms you speak of, it wont be Islam anymore but global socialism for the poor and Zionist plutocratic hegemony for the rest. NWO

[Grace Seeker]

Are you a "modern Christian" that believes in "Cultural Marxism", the United Nations "human rights" dogmas or a Christian that follows Jesus Christ and the tenets of the New Testament? Have you modernised yourself right out of your religion? Think about it, does the Bible talk about the things you say? Did Jesus preach the things you said? Or are those things you have said just modern secularist socialist catch cries? If Islam adopts these modernisms you speak of, it wont be Islam anymore but global socialism for the poor and Zionist plutocratic hegemony for the rest. NWO

So, Karl, contrary to your implication I don't think there is anything in Christianity about these things. But, I don't need a Muslim to explain Christianity to me; I need Muslims to help me to better understand Islam. Are you saying that the recognition of unions would be mean that a person was not practicing Islam?

[Eshai]

Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

Personally, I do not believe in "rights." I think if you are incapable of digging a well to obtain clean water, then you do not have the right to drink clean water (unless you find yourself in the good graces of those who show you mercy).

I believe there always exists the opportunity to advance yourself. You must be willing to take the opportunity. It is not the opportunity that is lacking; it is the willingness that is lacking. I think too many people expect things to be given to them, and feel entitled to "rights" which they have not earned by advancing themselves sufficiently to take those rights for themselves. If they truly deserved it, they would have it already because they would have done the work to achieve it. Like clean water. Those who do not understand how clean water is achieved take for granted having it, and are unaware of the effort required to dig the well. Perhaps they think it magically appears, and so perhaps they become confused as to why some people do not have clean water.

Why would any group of people wait to be "given the right" to form a union?

Concerning the redistribution of wealth: in school, if you make an A and the student sitting next to do makes an F, are you able to give him some of your points?

Think about it.

[ahsankhan]

really interesting discussion but consulting a mu'alim in these matter's are far more better than speaking out our own opinions.

[Karl]

So, Karl, contrary to your implication I don't think there is anything in Christianity about these things. But, I don't need a Muslim to explain Christianity to me; I need Muslims to help me to better understand Islam. Are you saying that the recognition of unions would be mean that a person was not practicing Islam?

What is modern about unions, they were called guilds in the old days and had many other names. Even the fellas building a pyramid thousands of years ago went on strike because their garlic ration was reduced. Mediation about working conditions have been around for ages.
Islam cannot be made modern just like a Gothic Castle can't be modern. You would have to tear it down and replace it with something modern. Basically, if Muslims and Christians want to live like "modern" Westerners they would have to abandon their religion and worship the State.

Any attempt at changing a religion is heresy.

[Grace Seeker]

What is modern about unions, they were called guilds in the old days and had many other names. Even the fellas building a pyramid thousands of years ago went on strike because their garlic ration was reduced. Mediation about working conditions have been around for ages.
Islam cannot be made modern just like a Gothic Castle can't be modern. You would have to tear it down and replace it with something modern. Basically, if Muslims and Christians want to live like "modern" Westerners they would have to abandon their religion and worship the State.

Any attempt at changing a religion is heresy.

Karl, I'm not sure if maybe you didn't read my OP or if you did and didn't understand it. But I didn't say "contemporary", I said "modern". Further, as I explained in my OP, by modern I mean a specific time period which began with the Enlightenment and the change of thinking that has come to be associated with that renaissance. And while guilds preceded the Enlightenment, they were in fact an essential part of the modernizing of the world and are different than your reference to ancient Egypt. So, yes, unions are "modern" using the classical sense of modern that I have asked about.

Christians do not have to either abandon our religion nor worship the state to be modern. Why do you perceive that Muslims would be required to do so?

[Grace Seeker]

Personally, I do not believe in "rights." I think if you are incapable of digging a well to obtain clean water, then you do not have the right to drink clean water (unless you find yourself in the good graces of those who show you mercy).

Eshai, surely you're aware that in many places in the world one might be fully capable of digging a well, but the water that one finds is not necessarily going to be clean. However, the existence of laws which would give you the ability to prevent people from polluting the groundwater might mean that if you did dig that well that you could be assured of finding clean, not polluted, water when you reached the water table.

Those who do not understand how clean water is achieved take for granted having it, and are unaware of the effort required to dig the well. Perhaps they think it magically appears, and so perhaps they become confused as to why some people do not have clean water.

I'm wondering if you have some magical views with regard to the existence of clean water yourself? It takes more than just exerting the effort required to dig a well to have clean water.

Why would any group of people wait to be "given the right" to form a union?

Because negotiating together with others who have the same economic interests that you do can put one in a better position to achieve a favorable outcome with regard to one's employment.

Concerning the redistribution of wealth: in school, if you make an A and the student sitting next to do makes an F, are you able to give him some of your points?

Indeed, in some cases one can.

[greenhill]

Hi Grace Seeker,

Don't think you understood the 'spirit' behind the examples given. A bit knit picky. I would like to hear your examples of sharing grades in exams :hmm:

People forget that it was Islam that brought Western Europe out of its dark ages. The Muslims were the first to modernise. Seeking knowledge was the norm along with spiritual growth.

Unfortunately, the western modernisation took shape without spiritual guidance and resulted in laws of abomination and it is doing its best to be derogatory about Islam. This kind of modernisation is what Islam can do without. Destructive is what it is.

Peace :shade:

[Eshai]

Don't think you understood the 'spirit' behind the examples given.

greenhill is correct, Grace Seeker. Though, even when it comes to pollution my stance is the same: if the people are unable to prevent the pollution of their land, they do not deserve to have it free of pollution. If they truly wanted it, they would take it and put a stop to having their groundwater polluted by whatever means necessary. They clearly value something else more than they do clean water, and so they continue living with polluted water.

And my point about the unions is that if you wait around for someone to give you permission to form a group so you can work together, you are a fool. You have to do what you know in your heart to be right, regardless of the potential consequences. This means that even if it against the law to form a union, and you feel it is right to form a union, you should break that law and form a union. Change the law through your actions.

My fundamental belief is reflected in all these examples. You get exactly what you earn and deserve based on the work that you do. In my opinion, something which is "given" has no value. It must be taken. And if you were not strong enough to take it, you do not deserve it. Is this not the essential nature of humanity?

[Grace Seeker]

My fundamental belief is reflected in all these examples. You get exactly what you earn and deserve based on the work that you do. In my opinion, something which is "given" has no value. It must be taken. And if you were not strong enough to take it, you do not deserve it. Is this not the essential nature of humanity?

Perhaps I misunderstand you, Eshai, but this sounds more like anarchy than any form of religion that I know, certainly not Islam. What you've articulated boils down to little more than "might makes right." How does that reflect the principles of Sharia?



On another note, I stumbled across this article today....Ireland is more faithful to the Qu’aran than Saudi Arabia You can read the more complete article here.

[Eshai]

Might does make right, though there are many forms of might.

What successful religion boasts a weak god?
What powerful nation is ruled by the humble?
What wealthy man is employed by the poor?

The strong rule the weak.
Weapons of war secure providence;
As peace is found in the land with the more powerful army.

Anarchy is when the weak become strong and shift the balance of power, old orders crashing down, but eventually a new order is installed. Anarchy is always only temporal, yielding yet another order where, lo and behold, the strong rule the weak. This is the way of nature.

In my opinion, there is a difference between helping the weak continue being weak... and helping the weak to become strong themselves.

Here are some different perspectives on my stance:

Can a child learn to walk and run well if we do everything in our power to prevent him from falling?

Should we hire people to do construction work who are unqualified and not certified to do the work because they need the money (all the while disregarding the lives of the people who will occupy that building)?

Of course not.

So why should we redistribute the wealth of a people, burdening their society at large, so weak people who never learned to build their own nation can continue being weak as they are spoon fed by the strong?

Starvation and thirst are powerful motivators. So it is unpleasant. But very little in life worth having comes without difficulty. There is a price for everything. If someone wants a great nation, they must be willing to pay a great price.

[Scimitar]

You are pushing material conquest over spiritual progress - that is not Islam - everything you wrote is selfish and abhorable.

Scimi

[Karl]

Karl, I'm not sure if maybe you didn't read my OP or if you did and didn't understand it. But I didn't say "contemporary", I said "modern". Further, as I explained in my OP, by modern I mean a specific time period which began with the Enlightenment and the change of thinking that has come to be associated with that renaissance. And while guilds preceded the Enlightenment, they were in fact an essential part of the modernizing of the world and are different than your reference to ancient Egypt. So, yes, unions are "modern" using the classical sense of modern that I have asked about.

Christians do not have to either abandon our religion nor worship the state to be modern. Why do you perceive that Muslims would be required to do so?

You are pushing liberal left wing principles and democracy, is that modern? I remember them also being ancient and a failure.

[Karl]

You are pushing material conquest over spiritual progress - that is not Islam - everything you wrote is selfish and abhorable.

Scimi

He is just being honest. The world is a gangland fighting for supremacy. The Zionists Lord are the plutocrats, the liberal leftists democracy groups Lord is the plutocrats and the collective state and the true religious peoples Lord is God. Which Lord cannot be defeated? We can only lose if we are tempted away from our Lord.

BTW Anarchy (self rule) which is just the opposite of monarchy can work in very small populations isolated away from other systems.

[Karl]

Might does make right, though there are many forms of might.

What successful religion boasts a weak god?
What powerful nation is ruled by the humble?
What wealthy man is employed by the poor?

The strong rule the weak.
Weapons of war secure providence;
As peace is found in the land with the more powerful army.

Anarchy is when the weak become strong and shift the balance of power, old orders crashing down, but eventually a new order is installed. Anarchy is always only temporal, yielding yet another order where, lo and behold, the strong rule the weak. This is the way of nature.

In my opinion, there is a difference between helping the weak continue being weak... and helping the weak to become strong themselves.

Here are some different perspectives on my stance:

Can a child learn to walk and run well if we do everything in our power to prevent him from falling?

Should we hire people to do construction work who are unqualified and not certified to do the work because they need the money (all the while disregarding the lives of the people who will occupy that building)?

Of course not.

So why should we redistribute the wealth of a people, burdening their society at large, so weak people who never learned to build their own nation can continue being weak as they are spoon fed by the strong?

Starvation and thirst are powerful motivators. So it is unpleasant. But very little in life worth having comes without difficulty. There is a price for everything. If someone wants a great nation, they must be willing to pay a great price.

True, but power corrupts and greed and conquest can go to their heads. The USA could have it's roads paved with gold if it was not such a wasteful warmonger.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Goodness, this is an old thread. I last made a comment a few years ago. Here's my latest views on the question of whether Islam should be modernized.

From what I have learned, Islam is perfect. Please refer to Surah Al-Maidah ayat 3. So what happens when you make changes to something which Allah has already made perfect? You make it worse, that's what. You cannot make something that's perfect any better by making changes to it. That brings us to the question of whether Islam is outdated and therefor it has to be modernized.

One question first. Does Allah know that we will have computers and the internet today? Of course, Allah does. Why doesn't Allah tell the Holy Prophet about computers and internet then? The retort would be 'What for?' There were no computers and internet, as we know it, at that time. Does that mean that, now that we have computers and internet, we need more instructions from Allah as to what to do? And therefor we need to modernize Islam?

No.

Let me share my own personal experience. I am an IT person. I live most of the time in cyberspace. I use the computer and internet much more than I use any other tools. So am I at a loss about what to do?

No.

Let's take Facebook. I interact with people all over the world via Facebook. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of behavior. So do I need to learn a new set of rules to interact with these people just because I interact with them via the internet?

No.

I interact with these people in Facebook just as I would interact with people in real life. People are still people whether I interact with them via the internet or in real life. So is there any need to modernize Islam to cope with inter-people interaction in the internet?

No.

I also ask Uncle Google when I need information. Some of this information is correct. Some are less correct. Some are totally false. I check, double-check and cross-check. Just the same as I would do when I ask anyone in real life for information. So is there any need to modernize Islam to cope with the information we get from the internet?

No.

Islam is perfect. Allah said so. If you do not believe what Allah says, that's a different story altogether. But as far as this thread is concerned, where the question is whether Islam needs to be modernized, the answer is,

No.

WalLahu aklam.

[truthseeker63]

In my opinion/view it depends on what one means by modernized .

,

[MuslimInshallah]

Might does make right, though there are many forms of might.

What successful religion boasts a weak god?
What powerful nation is ruled by the humble?
What wealthy man is employed by the poor?

The strong rule the weak.
Weapons of war secure providence;
As peace is found in the land with the more powerful army.

Anarchy is when the weak become strong and shift the balance of power, old orders crashing down, but eventually a new order is installed. Anarchy is always only temporal, yielding yet another order where, lo and behold, the strong rule the weak. This is the way of nature.

In my opinion, there is a difference between helping the weak continue being weak... and helping the weak to become strong themselves.

Here are some different perspectives on my stance:

Can a child learn to walk and run well if we do everything in our power to prevent him from falling?

Should we hire people to do construction work who are unqualified and not certified to do the work because they need the money (all the while disregarding the lives of the people who will occupy that building)?

Of course not.

So why should we redistribute the wealth of a people, burdening their society at large, so weak people who never learned to build their own nation can continue being weak as they are spoon fed by the strong?

Starvation and thirst are powerful motivators. So it is unpleasant. But very little in life worth having comes without difficulty. There is a price for everything. If someone wants a great nation, they must be willing to pay a great price.

Assalaamu alaikum all,

This post's darkness really bothered me. So much so that I felt a need to write…the following. Influenced by the story of Asiya, wife of the Pharaoh.


Is there no beauty in this human world?
Is there no Justice, Kindness, room for Love?
Just merely might and petty grasps for more
And liars clutching jeweled goods they stole
And women toys for greedy, selfish boys
And children fodder for the drums of war?

Is there no God, no Paradise, no Scales?
Just worms and crumbling tombs that fade away?
The echoes of the chortling two-faced ones
As lost as the soft prayers of those who care?

You torture me with weights of this Dark Sight
Your visions crush the sweetnesses of life
Till I cry out:

Oh Lord! Prepare for me a Garden Home
So near to You and safe from empty Selves
Who shadow this most vibrant, leafy world
With grasping hands and tongues split into snakes,
With smiles of victors never fearing death.

I cry- and You Encircle me with friends
Like birds in startled flight on spring-like days,
That wreathe my troubled heart and leaking eyes
That whisper me a glimpse of things Unseen
Until perhaps a light may start to glow
Among the dying embers of my shell,
To burst into a flame that kindles hope
In any eyes that might be peeking here.

May puzzled hearts so wrapped in pride behold
My lips curved into arcs of sheer delight...



May Allah, the Protector, Shield us from darkness, and Lead us into Light.

[introspective]

Relatively speaking, look at what modernization did to 'Murica

[Scimitar]

In my opinion/view it depends on what one means by modernized .

very acute question. !!! :)

Is Islam compatible with technology? yes - I have the Quran app on my smart phone, thank Allah for al Khwarismi, without him, algorithms wouldn't have been invented and we'd not be here on this forum coz the computer wouldn't have been invented either.

Flip side - does Islam fit into the modernity of social norms accepted within western society today? NO... what it does do is give those who consider their soul - the option to feed it, not neglect it... as for my saying "modernity of social norms accepted within society today" - well, is this really only reflective of our own times? Or have we seen homosexuality, licentiousness, etc in other times? such as in the day of the Roman empire? Or say others?

So you see, these people who claim Islam cannot fit with the modern - are really talking rubbish... the Romans thought themselves modern because they abused little boys and forcibly took nations care not the collateral damage - today we see the same... have things really changed for us to call this age "modern"????

Come to think of it, people like Eshai sponsoring their hellenistic world view on Muslims is nothing new. They offer us all the trials and tribulations without any promise of a better standard of living, or even the hope of an afterlife - so what good is it to humanity to embrace modernity if that is all it has to bring?

I say, Islam is for all the ages, and not just me - living proof, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world - growing at a faster rate than Eshai's so called modernity is :D

Scimi

[Eshai]

You are pushing material conquest over spiritual progress

I believe they are linked and directly influence one another equally.

I believe that the material world is a reflection of the spiritual within each of us. If we are spiritually mature, it will reflect in our physical deeds and our successes.

Is the father who disciplines his child selfish and abhorrent?

I am not saying: "Do not help people."
What I am saying is: "Help people become successful and strong."

I believe you can throw all the money in the world at a problem, and that problem will never be resolved until both wisdom and strength rule how that money is used. In America, this approach was used in schools that were populated mostly by low-income and impoverished students. The government increased the funding to these schools, with no results. Then, inspired by great compassion for the student who fail and are held back, they implemented a new policy which says that the school can only hold back a student for one grade only. After that, they are automatically processed into the next grade so they "don't get left behind." What was the result? Lots and lots of idiots "graduating" from school. More kids dropping out because they couldn't keep up.

Is it uncompassionate, dark, and selfish to say that people who do not work for something should not get it?
Do you not think it is wrong to steal from someone so that someone who makes no effort to succeed gets what is stolen?

I worked to get what I have. I worked in school to learn what I learned, and to pass the tests to earn the qualifications and certifications that I have so that I could prove that I had the skill to practice my craft effectively and safely. None of that was given to me. Also, I had to pay for all of it. If I had failed a test, I would not have deserved to pass. This is simple logic.

I believe this is reflected in all things.

Should we make sure that each impoverished family is provided a house, a car, food, clothing, and communications?

Or should we strive to help those people become strong themselves so they can work and provide those things own their own for themselves?

For instance, my neighbor came to me and said his lawn mower was broken. He asked me if he could use my lawn mower. I told him, "No, but I will help you fix yours."

And then the big question: What happens when, after all of this is done, the weak and the slugs of society continue to remain weak? How many times will you try to fix a thing until you decide to throw it away and replace it with something that works? Is believing that people should be willing to work and provide for themselves really un-Islamic? Is it really un-Islamic to say that those who work hard to provide for their families must also work hard to provide for the families that are unwilling to provide for themselves? I'm not talking about caring for children or the elderly, or the injured. I'm talking about casting out those who CHOOSE not to make an effort.

Let's look at Cuba, when Fidel Castro took the island with a grand total of 1500 soldiers. What did the Cubans do? They fled. They offered virtually no resistance. They ran from their country! They would not stand and fight. Shame on them, I say! Don't expect me to fight for you when you will not fight for yourself. But that's exactly what they asked of me by coming to my country asking for refuge, because I was a soldier for my country.

So that's my perspective, and I do not think it is dark, or wrong, to ask someone to provide for themselves. Nor do I think it is dark or wrong to say that if they don't work to earn something, they don't deserve to have it.

I do not exactly enjoy nationalism, because each "nation" is like its own entity. If one embraces nationalism, they should embrace the idea that each nation should take care of itself like each human being takes care of itself. If one needs help from others, that is fine. But there is a difference between helping someone, and "doing for someone." Now, if the world were a single nation, we wouldn't exactly have these divided ideals.

[Ali Mujahidin]

No, Eshai, I cannot agree with your approach.

And the way you look at things is not uncommon. That is how the rich become richer and the poor become poorer. Until the poor has nothing left to live for. So they do not think twice about rising up against the rich. That they will die is of no consequence to them because to live with no hope is worse than being dead. That's how revolutions come about. Then the cycle starts again. The previously poor now become the rich. And having become rich, they do everything in their means to not just remain rich but to become richer and richer and richer. At the expense of the poor. Until the poor rises up in revolt.

This is why I believe the Islamic approach is the right one. The rich, by Islamic law, must share their a part of their wealth with the poor. They eat meat everyday but at least once a year, during the qurban of Eidil Adha, they take out money from their pockets so that the poor can also eat meat, even though it's just once a year. This way the poor do not feel that they are totally neglected. Then they will have some hope. With hope, they see life in a better light. When they see life in a better light, they can think about making their lives better.

You, Eshai, speak only from the viewpoint of a person who is fortunate. Yes, you worked hard at your studies. And you got the good grades which you deserved. However, I have been a teacher for decades and I know for a fact that not everyone is as fortunate as you are. There are many children who are simply not as mentally capable as you are. Try as they might, they will not achieve what you have achieved. Their lives will not be as comfortable as yours. Maybe you can say "Serves them right for being so stupid".

Let me tell you that I, myself, am very capable mentally and intellectually. My IQ is above average. I have no qualms about facing anyone in a contest of mental ability. Yet, after I reverted to Islam, I see why I must have compassion for those who are not endowed with mental capacity like mine. Throw me penniless with only the clothes on my back anywhere in the world and I will survive, then thrive and finally succeed. Not everyone can do the same. Many people need help to get on their feet. With just a little help from those who are more fortunate, those who are less fortunate will have a chance to have a better life.

This, Eshai, is Islam. This, Eshai, is how Islam has been from the beginning. Islam does not need to be modernized to be good. Islam is already good as it is.

Let me apologize in advance if I have misunderstood what you are saying when you say "Might is right". But if I am not mistaken, then you have just read my response to your attitude.

[Ali Mujahidin]

No it isn’t, if Islam (the Qu’ran and Hadith) is perfect why does it need interpretation. Surely something that is perfect doesn’t need explanation. Something requiring interpretation and explanation is something which is unclear or ambiguous; something that is unclear and ambiguous can’t be perfect.

Islam needs interpretation not because Islam is not perfect. Islam needs interpretation because we human beings are not perfect.

Consider this.

There is a rainbow in the sky. It's very clear and very beautiful. Along comes a man. He has bad eyesight. He cannot see that the rainbow in the sky is very clear and very beautiful. So he concludes that the rainbow is not as clear and as beautiful as he had been told. He doesn't realize that the problem is not with the rainbow but rather with his own eyes. So to help him see the rainbow in the correct light, we need to give him glasses. The glasses will interpret what he sees so that he can see it correctly.

See my point? Or shall we think about how to get you some glasses to help you see better?

[greenhill]

Eshai,

At first read, a rather long post too, I see it is a fairly universal point - to teach a man to fish as opposed to giving him one. It could be interpreted as truly being a Divine rule. Even the prophet said that, those who wish for their neighbours what they would wish for themselves are the true believers.

It is our test, realised or not. To submit, to refer (to the teachings), to act, to accept (whatever outcome). . .and not give up.

The reason we are different is so that we can learn. We are of the times where we don't need miracles to make a point, we use reason. And every body will have an account to pay or receive.

So, coming back to the point, modernisation should be for the convenience, like access to any related stuff, availability response to, action etc can really help the ummah but should not lead to the disruption of the 'way of life'. It has become too easy to live off the efforts of others.

Peace :shade:

[Eshai]

First of all, I honestly have no opinion on the "modernization" of Islam, as I am not a Muslim and I do not understand Islam. I am in the process of learning about it.

Try as they might, they will not achieve what you have achieved. Their lives will not be as comfortable as yours. Maybe you can say "Serves them right for being so stupid".

I do not necessarily say that it serves them right, but everyone has their place and everyone has something that they can contribute to society in a productive way that best suits their inclinations. I believe everyone has value, but I also believe that not everyone can be the same. Not everyone is equal in this world, because no: not everyone is as fortunate as me, and I am not as fortunate as others. We all serve in different capacities in ways which are suited to our tendencies.

Any successful society consists of individuals who specialize in certain areas, and collectively they work as a team to achieve greater goals. If everyone in the team does the same thing, will the team function efficiently? Is this truly Islam, making everyone the same?

And if you want Islam to thrive, can it do so in an unsuccessful society?

I am not against compassion. Compassion is a useful part of society. As user greenhill pointed out: I believe in teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish. And if someone is incapable of fishing, perhaps they will at least be good at making nets. But is it Islam to allow a man to continue being fishermen even when he fails at it time and time again, and he requires others to give him fish because he is a terrible fisherman? Or, is it Islam to help him become successful in some other area where he can sustain himself? And if he insists on being a fisherman even though he fails, and requires fish from others, is it Islam to allow him this?

Is it Islam to allow a man to install air conditioners, even if he has no training and cannot pass the tests?
Is it Islam to allow men to frame houses when they have no understanding of structural integrity?
Is it Islam to allow people to fly helicopters if they are not licensed?
All in the name of being equal and the same?

My intuition tells me, "No, this is not Islam." Allowing people to not pull their fair share in society cannot be right. I cannot believe that giving people money and access to technology will improve their lives and give them hope. And to note, in my country I pay taxes which have been allotted strictly for sustaining those who are "less fortunate." I support this, because I understand that many people need a hand from time to time. It is also in the best interest of a country to help support those who fall onto hard times, because they will then rise up and improve themselves and their country. If they choose to do so.

But let us consider entire countries which are impoverished. Do you truly believe that if we build them railroads, pave their roads and give them cars, and install their plumbing... that this will help them in the long run? What happens when their stuff breaks down and needs repairs? Who will fix it? Who will keep their country running? The answer is: the people who know how to do it. But where are these people? Well, they were the ones who came in and gave them all this stuff in the first place, but now they are gone. So what happens? It all falls apart because there is no infrastructure. There is no order. And it isn't there because they didn't build it. This is something that literally cannot be given.

I do not believe that giving a paltry sum of money will give the poor hope. Because money is less valuable than knowledge. By giving a poor man money, he has just enough to survive and has no time or energy to further himself. I believe this is an injustice. Same with countries. You can't just give a country food, or money, and expect them to improve. Modernization (access to technology) will not help unless there are people in place to manage it.

These are world problems that little ol' me doesn't know how to solve, but I've watched as the poor have been given money and yet they are still poor. They are given food and they are still hungry. When are we going to wake up and realize that this is not working?

[MuslimInshallah]

Greetings Eshai,


Mmm. You have many different kinds of arguments. At first they were pretty harsh and dark. They literally evoked horror in me. Now they sound a little nicer and more plausible. But at the end of the day, I feel, there are some problems with the fundamental assumptions underlying your thought.


(smile) I was in Karachi, Pakistan a little earlier this year. And at some point, someone told me: you deserve something nice. But I couldn't agree.


Because do I deserve nice clothes, nice food, nice housing, good educational and employment opportunities... more than a little street boy I saw selling ice-cream? He was a sweet little child, only about six years old, working late at night, going from car to car at a fast-food stop-off, taking orders for ice-cream. He'd get a little money for each customer he brought in.


I grew up with nice clothes, nice food, nice housing and good educational opportunities. This child obviously was not getting the anywhere near the same things as I received as a child. Did I deserve anything more than he?


As a Muslim, I don't believe that I deserve anything. Everything I have is in trust, even my body. What I have, what I earn, what I make... anything... it's not mine. It all belongs to God. I'm just holding it for some small time. But what I do with it, is part of the test I'm living. Will I grasp what I have tightly? Or will I share (wisely, of course)? Will I arrogantly believe that I am the source of my good position? Or will I humbly accept that everything I have is by my Lord's Bounty and Kindness? Will I close my eyes to the injustices of this world, or will I look for more just solutions?


Is an educational system designed to give everyone an equal opportunity? Or it is perhaps designed to teach people their place in society? Are peoples really free to choose their systems of governance, and their political leaders? Or do wealthy corporations perhaps influence or impose systems (through money or by influencing militarily strong countries, for instance) that the people do not support? Are poorer countries poor because “their” people are somehow less than “ours”? Or are there perhaps international structural reasons why these countries are poor?


Giving a little “aid” money is not a solution, I agree. Not only is this “aid” usually tied-in somehow to supporting a corporation dear to the “donor” country, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what the “donor” country is likely gaining in benefit from the recipient country, through unjust structural practices.

Teach a person to fish? Sure. But maybe the wealthy and powerful should stop polluting his rivers and seas. Stop sending huge ships to plunder his coastal waters. Stop funding tyrants to take his fishing gear away. Stop sending troops to impose a foreign law and order... that benefits mostly foreigners (and a few well-paid local lackeys).

Because the truth is, wealthy countries often get an awful lot of their wealth from those poorer countries, either directly or indirectly.


(sigh) This is a long topic. My thought is the fruit of many years of reading and talking with people and seeing for myself the realities on the ground. I don't know where you get your examples from, but they seem a bit two-dimensional to me.


If you really care, Eshai (and perhaps you do, I don't know), rather than settling for clichés and reasons to feel comfortable with your easy life (and trust me, it is easy compared to a large majority of people on this planet), I would suggest you try looking for the beautiful in people. Try seeing their sadnesses. Their dreams. Their triumphs, however small. Try looking through their eyes for a bit.


Yes, people can be lazy. They may rip off a social security system. But look a little closer. That drunk who drinks his social security money and drowns himself in mindless TV, why is he doing that? Does he look like he's enjoying himself? Is he happy? Why not? What's his story? Is he a war vet who can't bear himself? Was he molested as a child? Did he grow up in a neglectful home with no love? Did his wife and kids die in a tragedy? There are so many possibilities... but there are real people out there with real stories. Can we help them all? No, of course not. And yes, they do need to take steps to help themselves. But the first step we can take, I believe (and we are only responsible for what we do), is to care enough to know and love these real people. To see each person as the unique and precious creation of our Creator.


From the personal to the international level, I believe, we have to be honest with ourselves. And humble before God. And loving towards our fellow humans.


Because this life is not about who can amass the prettiest piles of baubles before they die (And we will all die). It's about finding out who we really are. It's about surrendering freely to God. It's about seeking closeness to Him. It's about becoming more than we started out as. (smile) Not having more. Being more.


And realizing that, even with all the growth possible, that we are the most infinitesimal specks that have been Blessed with the chance to perhaps bathe in God's Endless Ocean of Love.


(smile) Perhaps this is gibberish to you, Eshai. And I feel I must ask you if you are interested in a relationship with God and all that it implies? Are you ready to fall into His Care and learn His Will? Are you ready to be a Muslim (in the deep and original sense of the word, of one who struggles to surrender his imperfect Self to God…and thereby find greater harmony and peace)?


Because unless you are truly willing to make the effort to surrender to His Will, I think perhaps that my words are unlikely to hold much sense for you.


May Allah, the Generous One who Creates and Sustains, Open your heart to His Call.

[Eshai]

If you really care, Eshai (and perhaps you do, I don't know), rather than settling for clichés and reasons to feel comfortable with your easy life (and trust me, it is easy compared to a large majority of people on this planet), I would suggest you try looking for the beautiful in people. Try seeing their sadnesses. Their dreams. Their triumphs, however small. Try looking through their eyes for a bit.

I understand what you are saying here. What is more important to God: That we feel sorry for people who are less fortunate? Or, That we help those who are less fortunate? I am sure there are many people who say that they care, and say that they are thankful, and this is the cliche which they embrace to make themselves feel better. Because despite all of their words, I would wager that most of them do nothing.

What makes you think I have not seen their sadness? Because I responded with a seemingly "harsh" stance? You warned me of assumptions underlying my thoughts. Consider please.

But maybe the wealthy and powerful should stop polluting his rivers and seas. Stop sending huge ships to plunder his coastal waters. Stop funding tyrants to take his fishing gear away. Stop sending troops to impose a foreign law and order... that benefits mostly foreigners (and a few well-paid local lackeys).

What would make them stop? A change of heart? A miracle? Both are unlikely. These kinds of people will always exist, and there is only one thing that will keep them at bay. The only thing that will make such people stop are other people who summon up within themselves the power to stand up and make them stop.

If people who say they care truly cared, they would be leading the fight.

Let us indeed truly be honest with ourselves. How much do we really care? Here we are, on the Internet, all of us leading more fortunate lives than those we idly discuss... and we talk about feeling for them, and helping them. Are we not all of us liars, to some degree, as probably none of us here are willing to sacrifice all that we have for the less fortunate? How many of us, the fortunate, are actually willing to put in the work needed to help the less fortunate, and to help stop those criminals who plunder the world in name of greed? How many of us are willing to pay the price to achieve the goals we talk about while bearing mournful facades?

Even if none of you respond here with your answers, it is more important that you are honest with yourselves, as user MuslimInshaAllah has suggested.

It is not a matter of being lazy. It is a matter of having no heart to seize what is right while expecting someone else to give it to you.

And I feel I must ask you if you are interested in a relationship with God and all that it implies?

Are you?

[Ali Mujahidin]

Just a short answer, Eshai, to your long questions.

No.

No, Islam says nothing, as far as I know, about allowing people who are not qualified to do the job, to do the job. A man who cannot read the mandatory verses cannot lead a prayer. A man who does not have a deep knowledge of Islamic law cannot give a fatwa.

Just curious. Where did you get your assumptions about Islam?

[Grace Seeker]

Personally, I do not believe in "rights."

Well, Islam teaches that there are....
According to Al-Ghazali, laws derived from the moral philosophy of Sharia should protect the following basic human rights:

• Life
• Religion
• Property
• Intellect
• Family

Any Islamic law whose application fails to protect these basic rights cannot be considered the Sharia, even if it is based upon the literal application of some verses of the Quran or the Prophetic traditions.

لكننا نعنى بالمصلحة المحافظة على مقصود الشرع ومقصود الشرع من الخلق خمسة وهو أن يحفظ عليهم دينهم وأنفسهم
وعقلهم ونسلهم ومالهم فكل ما يتضمن حفظ هذه الأصول الخمسة فهو مصلحة وكل ما يفوت هذه الأصول الخمسة فهو مفسدة -

Welfare which we mean here is the protection of the objectives of the Sharia. Namely, the objectives of the Sharia are five in creation: the protection of religion, life, intellect, family relations, and property. Everything that advances the protection of these five fundamentals is considered benefit, and everything which fails to protect these five fundamentals is considered corruption.

(source: Al-Mustasfa min Ilm al-Usul 287)

[Eshai]

Where did you get your assumptions about Islam?

I made the assumption that Islam should make logical sense. To me, it makes logical sense that in order to do certain things, one should be qualified. Therefore, I assumed that if Islam makes logical sense, it would support the same. We may all be equal in terms of humanity in the eyes of God, but we all have our roles and our place, do we not?

When we look upon some roles with pity and feel sorry for the people in those roles, is it not us who has made the judgement that those roles are lesser? If all roles truly have value and are equal, we wouldn't feel sorrow because there would be nothing to feel sorrow for. We feel compassion only because, for some reason, we have made the judgement that those who are suffering should not suffer. But I believe that suffering is something we must all go through, and sometimes suffering is necessary to learn. Yes, sometimes it is senseless and perpetuated by the sinister, and that kind of suffering helps no one. I agree that such senseless suffering should not be endured.

Well, Islam teaches that there are....
According to Al-Ghazali, laws derived from the moral philosophy of Sharia should protect the following basic human rights...

And how are these rights protected from those who would violate them? Are these rights not protected and enforced by the strong who have the power to do so, and who choose to do so? Does not the might of the enforcers sustain the rights which they desire?

[Grace Seeker]

And how are these rights protected from those who would violate them? Are these rights not protected and enforced by the strong who have the power to do so, and who choose to do so? Does not the might of the enforcers sustain the rights which they desire?

Protection of rights is also an important subject, but it is a different subject than my post. One will most certainly not protect something that is not valued. You had made the comment that you did not believe in "rights". I was pointing out that such views were antithetical to Islam. Not only does Islam hold to a belief that people have certain rights, but these rights are basic to our humanity, not something that we have simply because we have taken them by force. It might be that force is required to preserve access to them, but one has the rights not because we fight for them, we have them because God grants them to us as a part of his creation. Another might take them from you for a season, but eventually every person must stand before the Creator and Judge of the world; at such a time the taking of another's basic rights from them will weigh very heavily against those who have behaved this way.

[Eshai]

I consider a "right" to be something that you deserve because you meet x criteria. In this case, you have certain rights because you are human, and God granted certain rights to all humans. Actually, I am in agreement with user MuslimInshallah, who said:

As a Muslim, I don't believe that I deserve anything.

Not all humans have rights.

The only humans who do have rights are the ones strong enough to take them and enforce them. So, it begs the question: for the humans who have rights, are those rights truly "rights" in the sense of the word? Are these "rights" things which have been given which those people deserving of, or are they things which are taken?

Can a "right" be something that is taken, not given? For me, I believe the answer is no. This is why I say I do not believe in "rights."

[Grace Seeker]

I consider a "right" to be something that you deserve because you meet x criteria. In this case, you have certain rights because you are human, and God granted certain rights to all humans. Actually, I am in agreement with user MuslimInshallah, who said:



Not all humans have rights.

The only humans who do have rights are the ones strong enough to take them and enforce them. So, it begs the question: for the humans who have rights, are those rights truly "rights" in the sense of the word? Are these "rights" things which have been given which those people deserving of, or are they things which are taken?

Can a "right" be something that is taken, not given? For me, I believe the answer is no. This is why I say I do not believe in "rights."

Well, thank you for sharing your opinion on the matter. I can see how what you said earlier is true:

I am not a Muslim and I do not understand Islam.

It is good that, as you also said, you are seeking to learn. May you listen well to your teachers in this area.

[ardianto]

There are many things in modern age that did not exist or did not happen in the early period of Islam. It makes Muslims in modern days often there in situation that different than Muslims in the early period. In example. Muslims in the past did traveling on camels or horses. When the salah time came they could stop and performed salah, facing the Qibla. But in modern days Muslims often do traveling in bus, train, plane and can't stop when salah time comes and not easy to always face Qibla.

How to make Muslims in modern days can perform salah in this situation?. Ulema have done "Ijtihad" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad) for this matter.

Ijtihad is something that Ulema must do to make Muslims always able to follow Islam in every age. But unfortunately there are few Muslims who regard Ijtihad as modernization and call the Ulema who do Ijtihad as modernists.

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum,


(smile) When I say that I deserve nothing, I am saying that I believe that God Owes me nothing. I owe everything to God.


But God also Tells me that people have rights. For example, they have a right to kind treatment, to their property, to a share of any wealth I have over a certain basic amount I and my children require for survival. They have a right to be treated justly. To be cared for. (smile) There are many rights, I haven't made an exhaustive list.


My family has rights. My neighbours have rights. The poor have rights. The oppressed have rights. Everybody has rights. God-given rights.


(smile) We are all, in a sense, God's agents. We exist to seek closeness to God through voluntary surrender to His Will. But we also exist to potentially help others seek closeness to God. Not just by preaching. But mostly by existing. Each human being is an opportunity to work on our own relationship with God.


The Qur'an is a Guidebook. It Tells us how we can have a relationship with God. It Tells each person how to do this. It's emphasis, I find, is what on what the I reading the text can do. And these Teachings are Timeless and Perfect (smile. To connect this to the original topic of this thread).


God Owes me nothing. But He encourages me to ask. (smile) And I do. And if He Blesses me with something, whatever it is, whether I like it or not, then I should be grateful. It is a Kindness He Does for me. It is, even if I don't understand why, good for me in some way.


I owe everything to God. So if He Tells me that others have rights on me, then it is only natural that I do what God Tells me to do. Do I also have rights from others? Yes. Because I am a human being existing in relationships with other human beings.


I am very imperfect. And my understandings are no doubt flawed. But it seems to me that my focus in this life should be on what I can do that Pleases God. (smile) And from my understanding of the Qur'an and ahadith, and the promptings of my God-given inner compass of right and wrong, it seems to me that one of the major forms of pleasing God is through honouring the rights of others.


Thank you all for helping me to think more and more about God, and helping me to perhaps learn how to please Him better. (smile) Because while the Teachings are Timeless and Perfect, we imperfect humans, in each new situation we face (which are influenced by time and place), must always struggle to best understand (to the best of our imperfect abilities) what God is Gently Offering to Teach us, and try our flawed best to apply it to our actual daily lives. And, I believe, you are all helping me to do this. (smile) Thank you.


May God, the Only One who truly Knows, have Mercy on us all.

[Karl]

"Rights" is a hard one. Basically all "rights" and "negative rights" are put in place by the application of fear of punishment. Under God all things have equal rights i.e. when there is a terrible earthquake everything gets equally killed. No one magically drifts up out of harms way or is protected with a force field.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Not all humans have rights.

The only humans who do have rights are the ones strong enough to take them and enforce them. So, it begs the question: for the humans who have rights, are those rights truly "rights" in the sense of the word? Are these "rights" things which have been given which those people deserving of, or are they things which are taken?

Can a "right" be something that is taken, not given? For me, I believe the answer is no. This is why I say I do not believe in "rights."

Wait, Eshai, you are confusing this old man. So which is it? Do you believe that a right is something you take or something that you give? Yes, in the end you said you do not believe that a right is something that is taken, which is why you do not believe in rights. So if you believe that a right is not something that is taken, it would mean that you believe that a right is something which is given. In which case, why wouldn't you believe in rights?

Look at it this way.

Children are given rights. They have a right to, say, education. This right is obviously given because children, obviously, do not have the might to take this right to education. So do you not believe that children have a right to education even though it is a right which is given? Do you not believe that we, adults, who have the might, have a responsibility to make sure that children, who do not have the might, are given the right to education?

Please enlighten me.

[Snow]

I consider a "right" to be something that you deserve because you meet x criteria. In this case, you have certain rights because you are human, and God granted certain rights to all humans. Actually, I am in agreement with user MuslimInshallah, who said:



Not all humans have rights.

The only humans who do have rights are the ones strong enough to take them and enforce them. So, it begs the question: for the humans who have rights, are those rights truly "rights" in the sense of the word? Are these "rights" things which have been given which those people deserving of, or are they things which are taken?

Can a "right" be something that is taken, not given? For me, I believe the answer is no. This is why I say I do not believe in "rights."

Amazing point of view. Sounds like Ayn Rand 2.0
Just to mention an exaggerated example.
Look at Stephen Hawking, I could have my way with him through force but I accept that even though he does not apply to your definition of rights, as he could not enforce his will against me, he is without rights? He can contribute in other ways than being defined by how able he is to "enforce".
You almost make it sound like oppressing is a value.

[drkashifj]

I have been banned and abused a lot of times for writing about jihad.present day "muslims" even fear the word of jihad while kufar are free in their fora to abuse islam and Islamic personalities.
than some muslims of large Islamic fora claim that we are trying to convert non muslims to islam so we can not talk about jihad.
the question rises that why did prophet (sallalah u alih e wasallum) did not give up jihad when he was doing tableegh or preaching?
prophet (sallalah u alih e wasallum) and than sahaba raziallah unhum fought dozens of battles or ghazwas /saryas when islam was in its early era.

so how we agree to this dominant view of todays muslims (mostly those settled in west or secular muslim countries) that if we hide info about jihad and portray mujahideen of islam in negative light and side with secular muslim governments like Pakistan /bangaldesh and Egypt etc (who are siding with kufar agenda) than we will serve islam better somehow?

my view is that if a nonmuslim has truth in his or her heart he will embrace islam in its entire form...even if you convert a non muslim to islam and he does not believe in jihad etc than will he be a complete muslim?

point to ponder!

[OmAbdullah]

Pretty sure when Islam came, it Modernized civilization. We aren't where we were many centuries ago, but our system can never fail us, it's just the people who apply it in their own way that can.

Basically, the corrupt Leaders who want their own benefit in things hurt the progression of the Muslim Ummah. There was a time where there was money being heavily funded in Universities and places of education and people from all around the world used to come to the Muslims for answers, but that all changed once leaders and people turned away from the Creator and decided to gain their own power, their own way of doing things, money going into wars and military, thats when the Great empire fell. I don't see it as an coincidence that there's so much problem happening in the world today, especially in the Muslim lands.

I am sure things will change once people decide to change themselves, as the Quran tells us to.

Assalaam-o-alaikum, May Allah bless you for this Truth.


I, really, found your answer to be the excellent answer and a pure Truth!!!


Who can be more true than Allah? Surely, NO ONE.

Allah is Assdaqul Qaa'ileen. The Most True of all. Allah said in the Holy Quraan:
فبأي حديث بعده يؤمنون
"Then what will they believe in after this modern statement"


According to this statement of Allah The Greatest, Quraan along with the Sunnah gives us the most modern way of life. It shall remain modern until the last day of this world.


The Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam changed the name "Yathrab" to "Madinah" when he established it into an Islamic state. Madinah and Madaniyyah are related words and the latter means civilization.
So the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wasallam made the very first Islamic State a civilized state. Today the world in terrible darkness, It is now really a slaughter- house of human beings, not because of the application of the Holly Quraan, But it is so due to throwing of the Quraan at the back of the Ummah. Can any body tell with certainty that Quraan and Sunnah are applied anywhere in the world?

Today when Allah Almighty has blessed mankind with the modern sources of transportation, HIS Book And His Prophet's Sunnah do not prevent us from building strong roads, rail roads, nor from aeroplanes. Allah had already created cement, iron etc. for the same purpose, so be thankful to Allah and worship and obey HIM.

But Allah didn't allow mankind to use HIS created elements to make killer bombs and then use them proudly to kill thousands of men, women and children!!! Tell me where in the Holy Quraan and/or Sunnah one can find permission for such killer weapons?

[OmAbdullah]

There are many things in modern age that did not exist or did not happen in the early period of Islam. It makes Muslims in modern days often there in situation that different than Muslims in the early period. In example. Muslims in the past did traveling on camels or horses. When the salah time came they could stop and performed salah, facing the Qibla. But in modern days Muslims often do traveling in bus, train, plane and can't stop when salah time comes and not easy to always face Qibla.

How to make Muslims in modern days can perform salah in this situation?. Ulema have done "Ijtihad" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad) for this matter.

Ijtihad is something that Ulema must do to make Muslims always able to follow Islam in every age. But unfortunately there are few Muslims who regard Ijtihad as modernization and call the Ulema who do Ijtihad as modernists.

Assalaamu-alaikum.

I read once that the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wasallam was riding a camel and was making salaah on its back. Allah said in chapter The Cow (Al Baqarah), that wherever you turn your face you will find the Face of Allah. This is no problem to make salaah in a car, bus train or an airplane. If it is in one's hand, he can stop near a masjid and pray therein. If it is not possible like in a train, or airplane then salaah can be made in sitting position in the vehicle.


We don't need ijtihaad in these clear and easy things. I cannot explain ijtihaad here because it is very late at night. Insha Allah I will write about this interesting topic at some other time.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Assalaamu-alaikum.

I read once that the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wasallam was riding a camel and was making salaah on its back. Allah said in chapter The Cow (Al Baqarah), that wherever you turn your face you will find the Face of Allah. This is no problem to make salaah in a car, bus train or an airplane. If it is in one's hand, he can stop near a masjid and pray therein. If it is not possible like in a train, or airplane then salaah can be made in sitting position in the vehicle.


We don't need ijtihaad in these clear and easy things. I cannot explain ijtihaad here because it is very late at night. Insha Allah I will write about this interesting topic at some other time.

Very true.

What you said reminded me of an incident many years ago. I told some Muslim friends that I do dakwah via the internet. Immediately they told me that I cannot do dakwah like that. They said that dakwah must be done face-to-face. In my heart, I felt that what they said was not totally true. So I did some research which I confirmed with some Muslim scholars. During his time, the Holy Prophet did dakwah face-to-face and also did dakwah by long distance viz not face-to-face when he sent letters to people far away inviting them to Islam.

So, I believe if we think rationally, we can see that there are many thing which we do today which are already being done long ago. Even though the form is different, the essence is still the same.

WalLahu aklam.

[syed_z]

I have been banned and abused a lot of times for writing about jihad.present day "muslims" even fear the word of jihad while kufar are free in their fora to abuse islam and Islamic personalities.
than some muslims of large Islamic fora claim that we are trying to convert non muslims to islam so we can not talk about jihad.
the question rises that why did prophet (sallalah u alih e wasallum) did not give up jihad when he was doing tableegh or preaching?
prophet (sallalah u alih e wasallum) and than sahaba raziallah unhum fought dozens of battles or ghazwas /saryas when islam was in its early era.

so how we agree to this dominant view of todays muslims (mostly those settled in west or secular muslim countries) that if we hide info about jihad and portray mujahideen of islam in negative light and side with secular muslim governments like Pakistan /bangaldesh and Egypt etc (who are siding with kufar agenda) than we will serve islam better somehow?

my view is that if a nonmuslim has truth in his or her heart he will embrace islam in its entire form...even if you convert a non muslim to islam and he does not believe in jihad etc than will he be a complete muslim?

point to ponder!

Asalaam O Alaikum Drkashif,


No Muslim can disagree over Verses of Jihad i.e. Battles which Rasul Allah (saw) fought and the Ghazwas and later battles during rule of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. By rejecting or hiding these Verses Muslim would be committing Kufr Or Disbelief. But there is a difference between the Jihad of ISIS and real Mujahideen. The Jihad of ISIS which you've referred to in other threads as well is a deviant form against which Prophet Muhammad (Saw) warned us.

We have to keep in mind that, we should keep 1st what Allah (swt) and his Prophet (saw) kept 1st and keep last what Allah (swt) and His Prophet (saw) kept last. We should not keep 1st what they kept last.

The Prophet (saw) himself while doing Dawah in Makkah, never picked up the sword, which tells us that initial stage is to always do Dawah and spread the message of Islam through kindness and beautiful character. If you are persecuted then, you leave and do Hijrah (emigration in the way of Allah to protect oneself from persecution) and if your safe in a new land then continue preaching there and leave them who persecuted you. But if those persecutors come after you and still chose not to leave you, and kill you, then you pickup a sword and defend yourself till either they say La Ilaha ilAllah or they drop their sword and decide to make peace.

If during your Dawah, in the initial stages of Dawah, you talk about Jihad, then it doesn't make any sense because obviously when dong Dawah you need to talk about Real Jihad or Greater Jihad as the Prophet (saw) said himself and gave preference to before the Jihad of Sword, i.e. The Greater Jihad is to Struggle against one's own self. So we cannot give preference to something over the preference of Muhammad (Saw).

(Al Hujurat 49:02) O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not.

That is why I believe there is a saying of Hazrat Isa (a.s) that Kingdom of Heaven 1st needs to be formed inside your heart before it can be formed on earth. If the hope of The Mercy of Allah (swt) and the Fear of Separation from Him (swt) has not entered One's heart then Iman (Belief) hasn't entered and therefore it is futile for such hearts devoid of True Iman to pickup a sword and establish a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

The Khawarij were the 1st one's to raise their voice over the Voice of the Prophet (Saw).....

Abu Sa'eed al-Khudree, said,"'Ali ibn Abi Taalib sent some gold ore wrapped in dyed leather from Yemen to Allaah's Messenger, and he divided it up between four people: Zaid al-Khail, al-Aqra' ibn Haabis, 'Uyainah ibn Hisn and 'Alqamah ibn 'Ulaathah. A person among the companions remarked that they had a better claim to the wealth than these people.34When this remark reached the Prophet (a), he said, "Will you not trust me whom the One above the heavens has trusted? Information comes to me from the heavens morning and evening." Then a man with sunken eyes, high cheekbones, a protruding forehead, thick beard and a shaven head stood up and said,"Muhammad! Fear Allaah". The Prophet(pbuh) turned to him and replied, "Woe be to you. Am I not the person who fears Allaah the most?" The man then walked away and Khaalid ibn al-Waleed jumped up and said "O Messenger of Allaah, shall I not cut off his head?" But the Prophet(pbuh) said, "Perhaps he observes prayer." Khaalid then said, "Perhaps one who observes prayers says with his tongue what is not in his heart." The Prophet(pbuh) replied, "I was not commanded to pierce the hearts of people or slit open their bellies." Then he glanced at the man who was walking away and said. "There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man who will recite the Qur'aan, but it will not go beyond their throats; they will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target." ( Reported by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim )

Allah (Swt) says in the Following Verse of Surah Al Kahf Verses 18:103 - 104:

Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall We inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."

Imam Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir of these Verses mentions that Ali (r.a) pointed these Verses to refer to Khawarij, and Ali (r.a) also defeated them in the Battle of Nahrwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nahrawan

ISIS and their likeminded Muslims are modern day Khawarij and believe that their deeds are great in the sight of Allah (swt) and what they do is give three choices to all Non Muslims in the world:

1. Say La Ilaha IlAllah and live under our rule
2. Pay Jizyah
3 or The Sword.

This is unacceptable way to do Dawah, rather this is against Dawah. How can you tell some people living in a land of their own for centuries to either accept Islam or be killed even though they haven't fought against you, not even a word they've said against you, and this is in reference to the Yazidis of Iraq whose women are being taken prisoners by ISIS fighters and men are being slaughtered.

That is why it important to read the Story of Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) and learn guidance from this story in the Quran, who left the people living in their own traditional way of life and did not force the Law of Allah (swt) down their throat:

(Al Kahf 18:90) “. . until when he (eventually) came to the rising sun; he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering (for protection from sunshine, weather, environment) other than (the natural) covering.

(18:91) “Thus (did he meet them and thus did he wisely and compassionately leave them undisturbed in their natural way of life); and We (i.e. Allah Most High) did encompass with Our knowledge his grasp of the situation (and his response to it).


Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) whom Allah (swt) Himself has praised did not do what ISIS is doing in Iraq and Syria against Christians and Yazidis living peacefully with Muslims for centuries.

May be ISIS and likeminded Muslims should ponder over these Verses of Dhul Qarnayn.

[ardianto]

Assalaamu-alaikum.

I read once that the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wasallam was riding a camel and was making salaah on its back.

Wa'alaikumsalam.

That is the daleel for Ulema to issue fatwa that allow Muslims perform salah in running vehicle. Ulema used qiyas in this matter because Rasulullah Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam rode camel, not car that haven't exist in that time.

[OmAbdullah]

Maths, like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems. Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned. If I was your maths teacher and used confusing and contradictory language in teaching you maths it is likely that you would not understand and I would be described as a bad teacher. The Qur’an is a message, it is supposed to be the teacher telling us what we should do / how we should do it (if you like telling us how to solve the problem). The Qur’an isn’t supposed to be the problem it is supposed to be the solution. If you can’t understand the solution because it is so ambiguous it needs explaining it is not a good solution and consequenty the person delivering that solution could be described as bad teacher.

From your statements it is very clear that you didn't read the Holy Quraan. If a non-Muslim read (in the past) the Holy Quraan only for the purpose of criticism, he was so much impressed that he became Muslim. This is due to the unique Truth 0f the Holy Quraan. I advise you very sincerely to read it with a clear heart. This will be good for you. If you don't then death is surely coming to all of us including you. the Regret at the time of death shall be very painful and everlasting. Then there will be no chance to come to life again and make up the loss. then you will surely remember this sincere advice and will regret saying, "alas! Would that I had accepted the advice and had read the Quraan with clear heart without any enmity!"


Once again, please read it yourself and then decide with fairness and justice.

[OmAbdullah]

Asalaam O Alaikum Drkashif,


No Muslim can disagree over Verses of Jihad i.e. Battles which Rasul Allah (saw) fought and the Ghazwas and later battles during rule of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. By rejecting or hiding these Verses Muslim would be committing Kufr Or Disbelief. But there is a difference between the Jihad of ISIS and real Mujahideen. The Jihad of ISIS which you've referred to in other threads as well is a deviant form against which Prophet Muhammad (Saw) warned us.

We have to keep in mind that, we should keep 1st what Allah (swt) and his Prophet (saw) kept 1st and keep last what Allah (swt) and His Prophet (saw) kept last. We should not keep 1st what they kept last.

The Prophet (saw) himself while doing Dawah in Makkah, never picked up the sword, which tells us that initial stage is to always do Dawah and spread the message of Islam through kindness and beautiful character. If you are persecuted then, you leave and do Hijrah (emigration in the way of Allah to protect oneself from persecution) and if your safe in a new land then continue preaching there and leave them who persecuted you. But if those persecutors come after you and still chose not to leave you, and kill you, then you pickup a sword and defend yourself till either they say La Ilaha ilAllah or they drop their sword and decide to make peace.

If during your Dawah, in the initial stages of Dawah, you talk about Jihad, then it doesn't make any sense because obviously when dong Dawah you need to talk about Real Jihad or Greater Jihad as the Prophet (saw) said himself and gave preference to before the Jihad of Sword, i.e. The Greater Jihad is to Struggle against one's own self. So we cannot give preference to something over the preference of Muhammad (Saw).

(Al Hujurat 49:02) O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not.

That is why I believe there is a saying of Hazrat Isa (a.s) that Kingdom of Heaven 1st needs to be formed inside your heart before it can be formed on earth. If the hope of The Mercy of Allah (swt) and the Fear of Separation from Him (swt) has not entered One's heart then Iman (Belief) hasn't entered and therefore it is futile for such hearts devoid of True Iman to pickup a sword and establish a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

The Khawarij were the 1st one's to raise their voice over the Voice of the Prophet (Saw).....

Abu Sa'eed al-Khudree, said,"'Ali ibn Abi Taalib sent some gold ore wrapped in dyed leather from Yemen to Allaah's Messenger, and he divided it up between four people: Zaid al-Khail, al-Aqra' ibn Haabis, 'Uyainah ibn Hisn and 'Alqamah ibn 'Ulaathah. A person among the companions remarked that they had a better claim to the wealth than these people.34When this remark reached the Prophet (a), he said, "Will you not trust me whom the One above the heavens has trusted? Information comes to me from the heavens morning and evening." Then a man with sunken eyes, high cheekbones, a protruding forehead, thick beard and a shaven head stood up and said,"Muhammad! Fear Allaah". The Prophet(pbuh) turned to him and replied, "Woe be to you. Am I not the person who fears Allaah the most?" The man then walked away and Khaalid ibn al-Waleed jumped up and said "O Messenger of Allaah, shall I not cut off his head?" But the Prophet(pbuh) said, "Perhaps he observes prayer." Khaalid then said, "Perhaps one who observes prayers says with his tongue what is not in his heart." The Prophet(pbuh) replied, "I was not commanded to pierce the hearts of people or slit open their bellies." Then he glanced at the man who was walking away and said. "There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man who will recite the Qur'aan, but it will not go beyond their throats; they will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target." ( Reported by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim )

Allah (Swt) says in the Following Verse of Surah Al Kahf Verses 18:103 - 104:

Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall We inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."

Imam Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir of these Verses mentions that Ali (r.a) pointed these Verses to refer to Khawarij, and Ali (r.a) also defeated them in the Battle of Nahrwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nahrawan

ISIS and their likeminded Muslims are modern day Khawarij and believe that their deeds are great in the sight of Allah (swt) and what they do is give three choices to all Non Muslims in the world:

1. Say La Ilaha IlAllah and live under our rule
2. Pay Jizyah
3 or The Sword.

This is unacceptable way to do Dawah, rather this is against Dawah. How can you tell some people living in a land of their own for centuries to either accept Islam or be killed even though they haven't fought against you, not even a word they've said against you, and this is in reference to the Yazidis of Iraq whose women are being taken prisoners by ISIS fighters and men are being slaughtered.

That is why it important to read the Story of Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) and learn guidance from this story in the Quran, who left the people living in their own traditional way of life and did not force the Law of Allah (swt) down their throat:

(Al Kahf 18:90) “. . until when he (eventually) came to the rising sun; he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering (for protection from sunshine, weather, environment) other than (the natural) covering.

(18:91) “Thus (did he meet them and thus did he wisely and compassionately leave them undisturbed in their natural way of life); and We (i.e. Allah Most High) did encompass with Our knowledge his grasp of the situation (and his response to it).


Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) whom Allah (swt) Himself has praised did not do what ISIS is doing in Iraq and Syria against Christians and Yazidis living peacefully with Muslims for centuries.

May be ISIS and likeminded Muslims should ponder over these Verses of Dhul Qarnayn.

Assalaamo alaikum.

Please revise your translation of the verses, especially, the last two verses from Surah Al Kahf.



If the Prophet sallah Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive in these days then, according to you, what would be his attitude to the present situation?

Would he try to protect the innocent Muslims or would he let them killed and tortured as it is happening?

Allah knows best what had happened to the Christians and Yazidis in Iraq, but what we knew was that many non Muslim countries became active to protect them and provide them food from the airplanes. Surely the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam would provide them shelter and food etc. if he was alive but he would also take care of the innocent Muslim men, women and children in the most suitable way, and he would not discriminate against the Muslims as you are doing. For Yazidis and Christians there are many non-Mualim and Muslim countries to protect them from hunger and all trouble, but who is there to hear the voice of those helpless Muslims about whom the media gave news that they were eating cats, and that most of them will die due to cold in the coming days of winter? Who would respond to protect them from burning with petrol bombs when the media gave news that the smell of burning flesh of those helpless Muslims was smelled from that much number of kms? Where were you at that time to raise your voice in their favor? Or is their blood and life so cheap now in the absence of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam that no one on the earth of Allah has the right to raise his voice for their protection?


Allah is the Greatest and truly Allah is the Owner and Holder of All power. I pray to Allah to bring Heavenly Help to all of the suffering and oppressed Muslims as Allah had helped the Bani Isra'el in the past and as Allah had killed the killers of the Muslims by the same Fire which the killers had lit to burn the innocent Muslims. Everyone must read the Surah Al Burooj to know the story of the killers , those who couldn't control the Fire after burning the Muslims and right there, were burnt with the same Fire. The Killers must take lesson that death came to both of the parties. But the Muslims went to the Mercy of Allah in the Paradise while the killers went to face the Anger of Allah in the Everlasting Hell!!!

[syed_z]

If the Prophet sallah Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive in these days then, according to you, what would be his attitude to the present situation?

Would he try to protect the innocent Muslims or would he let them killed and tortured as it is happening?

Allah knows best what had happened to the Christians and Yazidis in Iraq, but what we knew was that many non Muslim countries became active to protect them and provide them food from the airplanes. Surely the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam would provide them shelter and food etc. if he was alive but he would also take care of the innocent Muslim men, women and children in the most suitable way, and he would not discriminate against the Muslims as you are doing. For Yazidis and Christians there are many non-Mualim and Muslim countries to protect them from hunger and all trouble, but who is there to hear the voice of those helpless Muslims about whom the media gave news that they were eating cats, and that most of them will die due to cold in the coming days of winter? Who would respond to protect them from burning with petrol bombs when the media gave news that the smell of burning flesh of those helpless Muslims was smelled from that much number of kms? Where were you at that time to raise your voice in their favor? Or is their blood and life so cheap now in the absence of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam that no one on the earth of Allah has the right to raise his voice for their protection?

Wa Alaikum Salaam

Did I say all of that?

Bro I wasn't ignoring the plight of the Muslims, I didn't even discuss them, I was just pointing out the Deviant groups amongst the Muslims who put us to shame. Hope your having a good day there?

[Ali Mujahidin]

From your statements it is very clear that you didn't read the Holy Quraan. If a non-Muslim read (in the past) the Holy Quraan only for the purpose of criticism, he was so much impressed that he became Muslim. This is due to the unique Truth 0f the Holy Quraan. I advise you very sincerely to read it with a clear heart. This will be good for you. If you don't then death is surely coming to all of us including you. the Regret at the time of death shall be very painful and everlasting. Then there will be no chance to come to life again and make up the loss. then you will surely remember this sincere advice and will regret saying, "alas! Would that I had accepted the advice and had read the Quraan with clear heart without any enmity!"


Once again, please read it yourself and then decide with fairness and justice.

Much as I like your attitude towards the Holy Quran, I am afraid that the harsh reality of life is that there are actually people who can read the Holy Quran, and understand what they are reading, yet do not believe in Allah or practice Islam. Allah tells us about such people in Surah 7:179.

http://i.imgur.com/TTKYljO.png

[Eshai]

Wait, Eshai, you are confusing this old man. So which is it? Do you believe that a right is something you take or something that you give? Yes, in the end you said you do not believe that a right is something that is taken, which is why you do not believe in rights. So if you believe that a right is not something that is taken, it would mean that you believe that a right is something which is given. In which case, why wouldn't you believe in rights?

Look at it this way.

Children are given rights. They have a right to, say, education. This right is obviously given because children, obviously, do not have the might to take this right to education. So do you not believe that children have a right to education even though it is a right which is given? Do you not believe that we, adults, who have the might, have a responsibility to make sure that children, who do not have the might, are given the right to education?

Please enlighten me.

I believe that no one is truly entitled to anything. That is the basis of my belief in this matter.

When I use the word "right," I am making an effort to appeal to how other people tend to view what a "right" is. So I truly do not believe in rights at all, according to the practical definition of the word "right:" "a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way" - Google. I believe this whole idea of what is "right" was put into place by those strong enough to make it so.

What I believe in are privileges. People are given privileges. Some children are given the privilege of an education. Some adults are given "rights," and though they are called rights I believe they are actually privileges. And if there is truly a difference between rights and privileges, can one of these not be taken away? Ideally, a "right" implies something which cannot be removed. In a civil society, we can have "rights" which cannot be removed, but only as long as the society has the strength to stand and maintain such rights. If there is chaos, the "rights" which we thought we were entitled to as human beings suddenly disappear.

There is a certain mindset which comes along with the concept of having "rights." In my view, it is a mindset which creates in a person the belief that they inherently deserve something, when no one really deserves anything they're incapable of seizing on their own. Strength is required. There are many forms of strength, including the strength one gets by allying one's self with a civil society and choosing to obey its laws in order to gain its privileges/rights while relying on the assumption that other people within that society will also obey its laws, the typical predictability of such enabling one to manipulate the society and other people to further one's desires--be they selfish desires or God's.

Now, if the strong on this Earth are charged by God to maintain God's rights, then yes I believe those people are indeed obligated to fulfill their duty. But even if this is true, God will not intercede to make the strong do so if the strong decide to go against their duty. Thus, our so-called "rights" aren't things which are guaranteed, nor are we inherently entitled to them; having the privilege of having rights is still dependent upon those strong enough to give them, or to take them away. God may want everyone to have these rights, but God cannot enforce them on this proving ground. It is man's game to play.

So are we not, in fact, obligated to become strong to take the "rights" which God wishes for us?
And if these "rights" are things which are taken, not given, are they really rights at all? I personally do not think so. I think they are things which have been made to be right through some kind of force (be it vulgar, brute force or manipulative force).

If our "rights" were truly rights, and we are entitled to them, wouldn't every human being always have them? How can the rights bestowed upon us by God ever be taken away? In the next life, perhaps they can't be. But they surely can in this one. This is what indicates to me that there really are no human rights. There is only what you can take, and what you cannot take.

So do the people who drink polluted water have the right to drink clean water? Evidently not, since they haven't taken that right and no one has helped them to get that right. Why haven't the believers of these rights gone to their aid and solved the problem? Apparently even they think the people drinking the polluted water deserve their fate, since they haven't done anything about it except say that someone should do something about it.

If I sincerely believed that it was my duty to help others out of pure altruism, or that it is commanded of me by God, then that is what I would be doing. I believe that people say such things because it makes them appear more pious, and they do it to build up their earthly reputation with no sincere desire to do God's work. Because if they truly cared, they'd be right along side the people who need them most. They'd be actively enforcing God's word with all of their might. But because they do not, this tells me that a part of them believes that other people should do for themselves, individually and collectively.

So why the outcry to get clean water to people who are drinking polluted water, followed by...? Nothing. Do you truly feel you've "done your part" by taking a side and sharing a picture on YouFace? Is this the extent of your aid, and deep down inside you really believe that they need to organize themselves and fight for their own clean water themselves? If you don't believe this, then why aren't you getting them clean water and fulfilling your obligation?

[Eshai]

PS: In my previous post, I was not speaking exclusively to user Ali Mujahidin. I was mostly speaking in general when I use the word "you." My apologizes for not clarifying that ahead of time.

[Ali Mujahidin]

So, Eshai, you do not believe that anyone is entitled to anything. Does that include you and yourself? Do you mean to say you yourself are not entitled to anything? Like when you were just born, when you were just a helpless baby, do you believe that you do not have the right to life? Do you believe that you are not entitled to live?

[Eshai]

So, Eshai, you do not believe that anyone is entitled to anything. Does that include you and yourself? Do you mean to say you yourself are not entitled to anything? Like when you were just born, when you were just a helpless baby, do you believe that you do not have the right to life? Do you believe that you are not entitled to live?

Yes I believe this. I believe I am not entitled to anything, including my own life.

[Abz2000]

And do you also believe you are not entitled to leave the house without being robbed or spat at?
Or maybe to lock your door at night?
What if someone told you you didn't, would you accept such an absurdity?

Allah gave to every person their mutual rights, and for the wrongs done He has told us that He will re-allocate with perfect balance on the D.O.J.
Where He decides to forgive a usurper, He will recompense the victim from His endless bounty - we have also been told that if a person runs out of positive balance on that Day, the same will have to accept sins of the usurped until the balance is even - unless He sees fit to recompense personally.
And Allah knows best.
Even the prick of a thorn is reimbursed with expiation of sins (and logically with reward if the balance of sins is cleared at the stage of accounting).
It's called compensation in "the modern world" (lol for the term used coz the world is still the same size and time is still constant).

I would recommend that we skim through the first verses of surah nisaa (ch 4) which focuses mainly on rights before even bothering to dispute such baseless ideas from hawaa.
For verily the most noble speech is the speech of Allah and the best guidance is that exemplified through Muhammad (pbuh and upon his family and nation).

[Eshai]

And do you also believe you are not entitled to leave the house without being robbed or spat at?
Or maybe to lock your door at night?

Yes. I believe that I am not entitled to these things. But be mindful of what the word "entitled" means.

What if someone told you you didn't, would you accept such an absurdity?

Whether or not it is absurd is a matter of context, which I would naturally take into consideration. If I disagreed with it, I would not accept it by choice. But there is always the chance that I would be made to accept it, whether or not I agreed.

In the US state of Florida during the aftermath of hurricane Andrew, there was no law for many weeks. Many people did not have doors to lock, and looters were everywhere. What few police were available finally told people to do what they were doing already: shoot and kill the looters on sight.

The citizens of Florida, according to the rights of their country and state, had the right to walk around freely and in safety. They had the right, according to the law, to not be assaulted and have their property stolen. But the law alone could not enforce these rights. The good will of their protectors, however strong, was inefficient to uphold them. The only thing that enforced these rights was that those people were willing to fight and kill to protect those rights. They had to have the might to uphold what we call "basic rights," for if they did not have the might they would not have had the right.

[Abz2000]

In Islam there are many clearly defined rights and according to Sahih Muslim The bare minimum unconditional right given by Allah to be expected in terms of possessions is the mouthful that sustains and the loincloth,
the rest is a matter of jurisprudence faith in Allah and seeking of His face and fairness and justice.
Umar ibn al Khattab is reported to have suspended the punishment of theft during the drought/famine, it was accepted that the starving would take their mouthful.

The good will of their protectors, however strong, was inefficient to uphold them.

They have taken besides Allah [false] "gods" that perhaps they may help them
They are not able to help them, but they are for them a present army
So let not their speech grieve you. Indeed, We know what they conceal and what they declare.

Quran- Yaseen (36:74-76)

*for if they did not have the might they would not have had the right.

They already have the right, they take that right with might if they are oppressed and a zuaalim oppressor/incompetent or incapable leader refuses to or is unable to establish the Law of God themself. And might itself is granted by Allah.

If you're going to rely on might alone, then submit to and rely on Allah alone, for All might belongs to Him - no matter what vain imaginings or untrue constructs we may have conjured in our minds about ourselves or other people like us.

Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?

Quran - Yaseen 36:77

I would advise you to have a little flick through the Quran and history and you'll hopefully come to know that God has destroyed gangs like the people of Sodom and the forces of Pharaoh and Thamud despite not giving His Messengers the physical might in their own hands.
When one is true to God and does his best within his means and good judgement, the rest is down to God.
When Lut (as)'s rights were violated, and he was judged by Allah as the wronged, he wished for a strong support and received it.
When Moses obeyed God, commanded the right and forbade the wrong, and refused to be cowed by the "might" of Pharaoh, and when he and his peoples' rights were judged to have been violated by God, the oppressers were just dealt with.

Has there reached you the story of the forces?
Of Pharaoh and Thamud?
But the kuffar are in denial,
While Allah encompasses them from behind.

Quran Al Buruj 85:17-20


Please read the Quran before making a fool of urself on an Islamic forum dude, examples of the mentality you project have been set:


Qarun (Korah) was doubtless, of the people of Moses; but he acted insolently towards them: such were the treasures We had bestowed on him that their very keys would have been a burden to a body of strong men,
behold, his people said to him:
"Exult not, for God loveth not those who exult (in riches). "But seek, with that which God has bestowed on thee, the Home of*the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: but do thou good, as God has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: for God loves not those who do mischief.

"He said: "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge which I have."
Did he not know that God had destroyed, before him, (whole) generations,- which were superior to him in strength and greater in the amount (of riches) they had collected? but the wicked are not called (immediately) to account for their sins.
So he went forth among his people in the (pride of his wordly) glitter.
Said those whose aim is the Life of this World:
"Oh! that we had the like of what Qarun has got! for he is truly a lord of mighty good fortune!"
But those who had been granted (true) knowledge said:
"Alas for you! The reward of God is best for those who believe and work*righteousness: but this none shall attain, save those who steadfastly persevere (in*good)."

Then We caused the earth to swallow up him and his house; and he had not (the least little) party to help him against God, nor could he defend himself.
And those who had envied his position the day before began to say on the morrow:
"Ah! it is indeed God Who enlarges the provision or restricts it, to any of His servants*He pleases! had it not been that God was gracious to us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us up! Ah! those who reject God will assuredly never prosper."

That Home of the Hereafter We shall give to those who intend not high-handedness or mischief on earth: and the end is (best) for the righteous.

If any does good, the reward to him is better than his deed; but if any does evil, the doers of evil are only punished (to the extent) of their deeds.

(The Holy Quran, 28:76-84)

[Eshai]

Please read the Quran before making a fool of urself on an Islamic forum dude

Please do not assume that my intention is to show that any facet of Islam is incorrect. I am strictly speaking to the ability to maintain what has been decreed as God's will. My argument is based on the simple fact that might is required to do so, regardless of where anyone thinks the might comes from.

As for making a fool... if asking questions and conversing from a perspective that differs from your own is foolish, then why have a forum at all? I am here to learn, as are you. You need not insult me to make your point, which was never my aim to reject in the first place.

They already have the right, they take that right with might if they are oppressed

I can see what you are saying here. If no one oppresses, then God's rights are never removed to begin with. If everyone were good and peaceful, no might would ever be required.

But this would mean that all humans should be able to live without harming other human beings. I wonder if this is possible.

[Abz2000]

Apologies if i unduly made you feel insulted, was just surprised by the coldness i perceived.

But this would mean that all humans should be able to live without harming other human beings. I wonder if this is possible.

That's one of the results of creating humans (unlike angels) in God's image, we are given a sort of managerial/caretaker position with the limited ability to run the affairs, and are also given instruction manuals via living examples to guide the process.
when we don't implement God's guidance we totally mess up, and He intervenes with a strong hand when the complaints start going up.
But when we do implenent them, we mess up sometimes, but God doesn't. We oppress sometimes, but God doesn't. We give up sometimes, but God doesn't.
That is why we have the option to accept that He's Boss, repent, submit and make amends.
On the day of judgement all including iblis who challenged His judgment will know that God is not unjust - despite His means and unlimited ability.


The same Iblis challenged God about Job's sincerity and patience, God allowed the devil to put Job to the test, Job won through and vindicated God.
Will mankind win through or fail?
Either way we'll vindicate God's judgement and justice.
A question of evaluating our vulnerable situation and saving ourselves and each other really. Delving into the Big "whys" won't really be answered or help us.
Maybe we'll know those on that mighty day.

And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."

They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is The Knower, The Wise
He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names."
And when he had informed them of their names, He said,
"Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed."

Quran - Al Baqarah 2:30-33


Man is a form of artificial intelligence with a spark of creativity into whom God breathed of His spirit, unlike the angels who are much more limited in their ability of independence.

This can be seen in our ability to just make a name for something - or choose a path based on reasoning and experience despite our difference of language and location. The name which would be programmed as given to angels, who flinch not from executing the commands exactly as given.

Mankind reached the starting point of that reflection based on experience 1,400 years ago as can be seen from the fact that messages to tribes had been overrided by a universal message admonishing and giving glad tidings to everyone who should "read".
The learning of right and wrong in God's sight is no longer just personal experience based.
I hope our reasoning and reading of past examples takes us to the path of acceptance of God's Might, Mercy and Justice - because logical reasoning only shows that path as the best option.

[M.I.A.]

i think its not a case of modernisation rather, reinterpretation.

but each to his own really.

as OP said the question ties in with literally everything you could possibly think of..and would take quiet a while to answer fully.

but yes, even if islam does not need modernisation.. it still needs to be interpreted correctly to be successful.


what success is, only allah swt knows.

[Abz2000]

Success is meeting Allah as a sincere believer who accepted the truth and submitted to Allah, and judged by His laws.
The rest is kufr, which is oppression.
If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

We are living in the final stage, past examples of dos and don'ts have been set in the most illustrative of ways, and the truth and best path have been shown to us in the most vivid manner, do we need to totally mess up and cause chaos in the insincere and false pretence of learning and adapting while being false to ourselves and to each other before God deems us as no longer useful but rather hindrances to those who choose to accept the truth and follow it when we know that God has explained how and why He dealt with Sodom, Gomorra, 'Ad, Thamud, Pharaoh etc? God was not unjust to them, but they were unjust to themselves and to others.

[M.I.A.]

Success is meeting Allah as a sincere believer who accepted the truth and submitted to Allah, and judged by His laws.
The rest is kufr, which is oppression.
If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

We are living in the final stage, past examples of dos and don'ts have been set in the most illustrative of ways, and the truth and best path have been shown to us in the most vivid manner, do we need to totally mess up and cause chaos in the insincere and false pretence of learning and adapting while being false to ourselves and to each other before God deems us as no longer useful but rather hindrances to those who choose to accept the truth and follow it when we know that God has explained how and why He dealt with Sodom, Gomorra, 'Ad, Thamud, Pharaoh etc? God was not unjust to them, but they were unjust to themselves and to others.

im just generalising here but i would like you to understand something, which you are probably already aware of..

islam was not sent to a perfect people.

when it mentions halal and haram, gambling and alcohol, fornication, desire and so on...

it does so because the people needed to know about it.

they were involved in these things otherwise there would be no need to tell them any different.

in fact if men were other than men then there would be no need to tell them to lower there gaze.

you are quick to mention western leaders and yet many muslim countries have problems of corruption or persecution of there own citizens and minorities.

if you have no care about the economy or the place where you live then what can you hope to achieve? what foundations can you set for tomorrow?

and if there was no need to invest in this life.. then what legacy would the muslim people leave behind?

we must not hasten towards any judgement day.


allah swt says mankind was created in toil..


put your hands and minds towards building a better future, not the intention of burning things when you have nothing better to replace them with.


there is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness... very early on in the quran it says (loosely paraphrased) that it takes absolute humility to achieve success.

i have no idea why.

[Abz2000]

Man may not be perfect but Islam has been perfected, so let us try to understand and heed it, and not be obstructed and led astray from heeding it.

Western banking cartels and leaders are propping up tyrants in lands that practice Islam - it wouldn't take an hour to pull down the tyrants in our lands had it not been for the support and fake concern by westwern kafir leaders. It would therefore be a foolish diversion to concentrate on the stringed tin-pot puppets and waste all our ammo on them.

Economy is important, however is NOT the ultimate policy maker in a non-criminal society.
Economy takes poll position only in mafias and cia type drug smuggling organisations where blood of humans is cheap.

Without this life there is no paradise or hell, so let's not forget Allah and forget ourselves.

I unsincerely apologise for having been subjected to bad experiences by kufr systems and having been prevented from implementing Islam when i saw through the falsehoods of demonocracy, communism, capitalism etc - and when falsehoid tries to tell us what Islam should and shouldn't be in the effort of humiliating Muslims and making them feel inadequate, it is commendable when one keeps a high head and throws their falsehood at their faces- read of abu dujanah the man with the strut ;)

Let us repent, submit and walk aright, for the Kingdom of God is here :)

[Eshai]

If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

I am sure that no one is suggesting that modernization of Islam means rejecting God and indulging sin.

Though, such things are rampant. Perhaps it would do well for humanity at large to be disciplined.

[ardianto]

People in Arabian peninsula were rejecting God and indulging sins before Islam came. This period called "Jahiliyyah" (age of ignorance).

So, if now Muslims reject Allah and indulge sins, it's not modernization, but back to ancient age.

[Abz2000]

I am sure that no one is suggesting that modernization of Islam means rejecting God and indulging sin.

Though, such things are rampant. Perhaps it would do well for humanity at large to be disciplined.

Then i would advise you to check the five attempted points:

(you may hit mute if you disagree with music)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q73eKuLFnJQ

It would do well for humanity to repent and submit to God.
Because Allah will fulfill His light however much the disbelievers and hypocrites may be averse.

[Eshai]

Thanks for the link, Abz. It seems logical that the people who believe in God's law would make it their law. And if the will of those people are in the majority, who would have the right to stop them from implementing such? And for those who are not believers, is God's law not beneficial for all mankind regardless of their faith? For cannot the followers of God live in harmony with those who have different faiths? And does not the Qur'an tell us to befriend those of other faiths?

[Abz2000]

There is no other faith except falsehood than submission to Almighty God and accepting the messages He has revealed - rejecting any of His messengers is also falsehood.
The best anyone can do for others (criminals who break God's law out of ignorance, arrogance or enmity) is pray for their guidance and try to deliver the truth to them in a nice way, (lakum deenukum wa liya deen).
but if they oppress God's Law abiding believers for no other reason than that they accept and implement the truth, they should be detered from oppression and breaking of God's law, clearly admonished and corrected and if this doesn't work, sent to the cemetery for God to judge them or have God's wrath called upon them.

And there is no other God than the Creator of the heavens and the earth who has no partner, no equal, no consort and no son.

I believe you'd tell me it would be foolish to tell the people of britain to "get along with law breaking criminals and be friends with them", while the current leaders of britain and all others who reject the truth are themselves criminals by God's measuring stick and by their own, and have not much of an idea i believe to know who's a criminal and who to punish.

What do you say when you make ablution?

[Eshai]

Is there is a difference between an unbeliever and an oppressor?

[Abz2000]

Is there is a difference between an unbeliever and an oppressor?

What do you say when you make ablution?

[Eshai]

I have never made ablution, so I do not understand the context of your question as an answer.

[Abz2000]

I have never made ablution, so I do not understand the context of your question as an answer.

:) Time to purify yourself and Read in the name of your Lord who created you from a clot, and taught by the pen (and internet).

[Freya]

I though Islam was modernized. They preach with microphones and do the adhan on loud speaks. You guys even post lectures online and we are on an Islamic forum using the net!
Are you saying Muslims should embark on space travel and preach to Martians? :hmm: Really pushing it bro. Technically Muslims are more modern than us pagans. You are as modern as you want to be unless you are Amish or something

[جوري]

Haven't read every post on here so don't know if this has been answered, just the title and the long and short of it divided into two parts ibadat, and 3adat.
3ibaddah as in matters of worship are a done deal, we're not going to adopt a new way to pray, fast or pay charity etc.
matters of living involves many things and loosely there's room for ijtihad based on the fundamentals. But obviously this has nothing to do with internet or phones have no idea where that comes from. Islam asks us to seek knowledge and has made it compulsory, if something doesn't have a particular moral value attached to it then why make it more complex than it needs to be.. can't figure out why six pages are needed for that and not going to sort through them..

best,

[Eshai]

Time to purify yourself and Read in the name of your Lord who created you from a clot, and taught by the pen (and internet).

I do not disagree, however, after rereading your previous post I believe I can see the answer to my question:

The best anyone can do for others (criminals who break God's law out of ignorance, arrogance or enmity) is pray for their guidance and try to deliver the truth to them in a nice way, (lakum deenukum wa liya deen).
but if they oppress God's Law abiding believers for no other reason than that they accept and implement the truth, they should be detered from oppression and breaking of God's law, clearly admonished and corrected and if this doesn't work, sent to the cemetery for God to judge them or have God's wrath called upon them.

(Emphasis mine.) Muslims should therefore pray for unbelievers (these are also those who break God's law) and be kind to them.

But, according to your if, unbelievers are not necessarily oppressors until they do something worthy of being marked as such.

I noticed you went back and edited your post after it was responded to:

I believe you'd tell me it would be foolish to tell the people of britain to "get along with law breaking criminals and be friends with them", while the current leaders of britain and all others who reject the truth are themselves criminals by God's measuring stick and by their own, and have not much of an idea i believe to know who's a criminal and who to punish.

Agreed. When the law breaks the law there is no law.

[Abz2000]

I do not disagree, however, after rereading your previous post I believe I can see the answer to my question:



(Emphasis mine.) Muslims should therefore pray for unbelievers (these are also those who break God's law) and be kind to them.

But, according to your if, unbelievers are not necessarily oppressors until they do something worthy of being marked as such.

I noticed you went back and edited your post after it was responded to:


Agreed. When the law breaks the law there is no law.

Rejection of Almighty God who created you, the earth that you live on, and sends down your sustenance from the sky - in itself - is ignorance, oppression and darkness. The truth should be clear by now that disbelievers are living in a world of dichotomic doublethink despite the signs being clear.

As for the "If" : they oppress themselves (innakum zualamtum anfusakum bi ittikhaadhikum al 'ijl) when they reject the truth, so i prefer to be kind to them and explain clearly with sincerity even though Moses just told them to off themselves, (maybe he had realised the inevitable consequences of kufr in God and His Law, or maybe he was rightly concerned about the fact that God's jealousy had been aroused) but when they democratically and collectively attack Muslims who have accepted and submitted to the truth, it is a transgression beyond boundaries which the believers themselves either rectify by God's judgement or call upon God to judge in the absence of physical means.

And there is no God but One, who created all that exists and sent down the guidance.

I had already begun editing it before i saw your post. Have to edit a lot as i use a phone to type and find it difficult make a coherent paragraph since my own text is obscured unless scrolled thru.

There is Only God's Law, and He doesn't break it.
All else in derogation is deception and falsehood.
Anyone who claims that their judgement or "law" is above God is a deceiever of themselves and others for which they should repent and amend.
For isn't it Lucifer who claims to ascend to heaven above the throne of God?

Kuffar leaders - actually any from among mankind and jinn and AI - would be well advised not to tug at God's cloak, let alone imagine themselves on His throne.

[Eshai]

Saying that people who live in a democratic society are "oppressors" because their elected officials are making decisions which may oppress Islam seems to be "oppression by proxy." Is "oppression by proxy" the same as "oppression," according to the Quran?

Consider that there is also a significant difference between a democracy and a republic. In a democracy, people actually vote for actions they want their government to take. In a republic, people vote for representatives to make decisions for them.

[Abz2000]

Lol u making me respond to a million questions beyond my reasonable capability.

In a democracy, the deceptive elite falsely convince people that they wear the cloak of God and sit on His throne (na'udhubillahi min dhaalik).
And in a satanic (Godless) republic they falsely believe their founders and leaders wear the cloak of God and sit on His throne, and that constitutions made by such founders are the bounden "laws" of such gods.
(na'udhubillahi min dhaalik).
In a real caliphate - the leaders and Prophets are fellow servants of God - there only to obey God with full sincerity, and that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and sustainer of them is God.
(Allahu Akbar)

The best advice i can give is: read the Quran and as much of the sahih ahadith as you can reasonably read, read the life story of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, compare it with previous scripture if necessary, evaluate the possibility of truth (reading sherlock holmes may assist in that), and THEN, if GENUINELY confused, ask people who you believe can answer sincerely and truthfully, and let them be sincere and true when answering - and repent to God and submit to Him.
For you can do nothing against the truth, and any illegal move you knowingly make will only work against you and vindicate the truth.
Salaaman salaama.

[Eshai]

No problem. I will not ask you any more questions.

[saif-uddin]

The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:</p>
What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.

One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

Peace be upon those who recieve Guidance!

Islam has been Perfected over 1400 years ago as stated in the Quran,

It is absurd to try and improve on Perfection,

The Quran and the Sunnah of the messenger :saws: will stand till Judgement day.all relevant rights were given to Mankind opver 1400 years ago, including those you stated above,

as for democracy that is a failed system of Governance which implies mankind with it's dimunitive knowledge knows better than their creator,

an absurdity we do not share in Islam.

regards

[kkawohl1]

Peace be upon those who recieve Guidance!

Islam has been Perfected over 1400 years ago as stated in the Quran,

regards

Really, in the same way as our science was perfect as stated in the science books 1400 years ago? :embarrass

[drkashifj]

Really, in the same way as our science was perfect as stated in the science books 1400 years ago? :embarrass

if you are a muslim than your above sentence is unforgiveable.you must repent.
science is man made thing and religion is GOD given thing.how can the creators creation be equal to human creation?
you will one day die in this world (to be reserructed later on) despite your wealth and "high education".but allah subhanahu will remain forever .

seculars are like dumb frogs in a small pond who thinks that his 2 by 2 feet pond is the whole world or universe.

you my friend is less than a speck of sand in greater scheme of things Allah has created.so speak in your limits.
even Einstein after years of research said that I know nothing and their is some creator who is running this show.



the greatest fitna in present time is that we consider our puny degrees (mbbs,MBA,BE etc) as a "Qaualification" that we can pass judgements on creator and "reform" the way of life "religion) he chose for us to be followed.

if Allah forbade alcohol and pork than it is still valid now as it was 1400 years ago.if Allah forbade zina it is still valid despite "late marriages".and if Allah asked believers to do jihad ,it is still valid in this "civilized world" (where kufar and rafawid have license to kill million of muslims but muslims don't have right of defense).bravo

[drkashifj]

I just remembered something.muslims read it carefully.

I am a Pakistani.fortunately or unfortunately whatever you say.i knew a guy whose sister got admission in pakistans number one medical collage which is located in Karachi and is run by agha khani shia community.this medical collage admission is the most sought after one in Pakistan and its fees are pretty high too.

anyway around 2005 I came to know that this guys sister had developed some doubts regarding islam and she was even considering to become atheist or atleast leave islam.
when interrogated she told of constant brain washing by medical collage staff and colleagues against islam ,(remember that this is happening in a so called muslim country.imagine what happens in kufar countries).
she also told that her islamiyat teacher (who belonged to same community) told them in one lecture that (nauzubillah) zina is halaal or allowed in present era.he told his class that sex outside marriage is halaal in islam according to this era,s demand when marriages take place later than usual.
she asked that is it true that sex outside marriage is allowed in this era?

so this girl who was from conservative pathan family of frontier province almost lost her iman due to brain washing in most prestigious institute in Pakistan.(later she repented after a lot of effort.pray for steadfastness of her iman).

same things happen in so called Islamic university like international Islamic university Islamabad.where some anti islam minded people have been made in charge and they install hatred against true islam etc...these satan agents want that people believe that islam has nothing to do with daily life and it must be limited to one,s self .so that system of governance must be secular or satanic system but a man can follow his religion in confines of his home
(minus jihad ofcourse).
nothing is more wrong than this...islam came to become system of this world.without that woprld will never know true justice...infact creation of khilafat and a system of Islamic governance is ferz on every muslim like salaat is ferz!
wish we muslims knew islam a little better.but our parents stresses only on worldly educationa nd did not stress at all on Islamic bases on their children.and for this they will be answerable to Allah most definitely .as a husband is qawwam on his ife and parents are qawwam on their kids and they have ferz duty to give them Islamic know how and education in true form according to quran and sunnah

[greenhill]

What to say, drkashifj? It is the world of today. I guess that is why the holy prophet said about his ummah at the end of times. And we are living in the time of the great fitnah, no?

:peace:

[kkawohl1]

During our short lives here, can we all get along as children of Allah/God?

Everyone’s existence is logical and has a purpose. We are basically tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called earth; that is within an even larger energy bubble that is our universe. Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe. The law of nature in the “physical” universe binds everything with this energy or force. It is invisible to us, yet it is the most powerful, ultimate creator, but it nevertheless cannot invade our physical existence.

During our physical existence our spirit can tap into this spiritual energy and receive inspirations and blessings to accomplish inestimable feats that can make our existence very pleasurable. Peace.

[Karl]

Lol u making me respond to a million questions beyond my reasonable capability.

In a democracy, the deceptive elite falsely convince people that they wear the cloak of God and sit on His throne (na'udhubillahi min dhaalik).
And in a satanic (Godless) republic they falsely believe their founders and leaders wear the cloak of God and sit on His throne, and that constitutions made by such founders are the bounden "laws" of such gods.
(na'udhubillahi min dhaalik).
In a real caliphate - the leaders and Prophets are fellow servants of God - there only to obey God with full sincerity, and that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and sustainer of them is God.
(Allahu Akbar)

The best advice i can give is: read the Quran and as much of the sahih ahadith as you can reasonably read, read the life story of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, compare it with previous scripture if necessary, evaluate the possibility of truth (reading sherlock holmes may assist in that), and THEN, if GENUINELY confused, ask people who you believe can answer sincerely and truthfully, and let them be sincere and true when answering - and repent to God and submit to Him.
For you can do nothing against the truth, and any illegal move you knowingly make will only work against you and vindicate the truth.
Salaaman salaama.

Really good prose there. Are you training to be an Imam?
Democracy is a joke. Most elections are rigged and most people are cretins so if the election results were not rigged the country would go broke over loaded with socialist policy. How long would a company last if all the menial workers had the power? They would want $100 dollars an hour and only turn up one day a week.
Evil plutocrats rule my country but that beats socialist grinding poverty. Evil has always ruled since the beginning of civilization, because it has the tenacity to do so.

[Karl]

My mistake I was thinking of Freyr (Fro Ingwe) is Freya's twin brother. He is the horned God of fertility, and has some similarities to the Celtic Cernunnos or Herne, although he is NOT the same being. He is known as King of the Alfs (elves). Both the Swedish and the English are said to be descendents of his. The Boar is his sacred symbol, which is both associated with war and with fertility. His golden boar, "Gullenbursti", is supposed to represent the daybreak. He is also considered to be the God of Success, and is wedded to Gerda, the Jotun, for whom he had to yield up his mighty sword. At Ragnarok, he is said to fight with the horn of an elk (much more suited to his nature rather than a sword.)
It's all very dungeons and dragons and very barbarically colourful. But my posts are getting deleted because I am not towing the line, so I should stick to Islam. Relatively speaking Islam is modern. The problem that the critics have is that Islam is not modern Western i.e. Zionist feminist Anglo American internationalist hegemony of warmongers and control freaks. In a nutshell The Beast. They do not want to destroy Islam but are trying to turn it to bow down to The Beast instead of Allah. Marxists have infiltrated the Catholic Church and the Marxist Pope has gone to Turkey to try to turn Islam the UN way.

[Freya]

My mistake I was thinking of Freyr (Fro Ingwe) is Freya's twin brother. He is the horned God of fertility, and has some similarities to the Celtic Cernunnos or Herne, although he is NOT the same being. He is known as King of the Alfs (elves). Both the Swedish and the English are said to be descendents of his. The Boar is his sacred symbol, which is both associated with war and with fertility. His golden boar, "Gullenbursti", is supposed to represent the daybreak. He is also considered to be the God of Success, and is wedded to Gerda, the Jotun, for whom he had to yield up his mighty sword. At Ragnarok, he is said to fight with the horn of an elk (much more suited to his nature rather than a sword.)
It's all very dungeons and dragons and very barbarically colourful. But my posts are getting deleted because I am not towing the line, so I should stick to Islam. Relatively speaking Islam is modern. The problem that the critics have is that Islam is not modern Western i.e. Zionist feminist Anglo American internationalist hegemony of warmongers and control freaks. In a nutshell The Beast. They do not want to destroy Islam but are trying to turn it to bow down to The Beast instead of Allah. Marxists have infiltrated the Catholic Church and the Marxist Pope has gone to Turkey to try to turn Islam the UN way.

Do you even know what a Marxist is? I of all people know this; anybody with 1 year of high school knows this.
If the Catholic Church was Marxist they would be giving food to the poor and ridding itself of the theistic elements. Why on earth would you bring up Greater Communism to a person who lives in a Lesser Communist country, Sweden.
You are making some really outrageous claims ;D

[Karl]

Do you even know what a Marxist is? I of all people know this; anybody with 1 year of high school knows this.
If the Catholic Church was Marxist they would be giving food to the poor and ridding itself of the theistic elements. Why on earth would you bring up Greater Communism to a person who lives in a Lesser Communist country, Sweden.
You are making some really outrageous claims ;D

Political systems evolve you know, like viruses. This Marxism is not the old textbook Marxism it is a New World Order Zionist form. The old form failed but the Reds had infiltrated the West. This form let's people do private business but the State is your master and controller and forever tightens the screws. You become a slave to a totalitarian global order.

[Freya]

Political systems evolve you know, like viruses. This Marxism is not the old textbook Marxism it is a New World Order Zionist form. The old form failed but the Reds had infiltrated the West. This form let's people do private business but the State is your master and controller and forever tightens the screws. You become a slave to a totalitarian global order.

Marxism has nothing to do with Zionism. I am a wishful Communist so I would know. You obviously have no clue of what Marxism is because in Sweden we have 3 Marxist parties and we have a bit of a reputation for Jew hating.

[Karl]

Karl Marx was a Jew. Most of the leaders of the communist movement and the atrocities perpetrated by the "Red Terror" were Jews. Sweden was a country ruled by pagan kings, later came Christianity and now it is a Zionist occupied government country. You are very mixed up as Norse pagans have kings not communism.
The Christian kings of Europe oppressed the Jews so they devised a plan to take it all down using this left wing madness, and it worked. Communism is anti kings and anti God. Hitler tried to liberate Europe from the Zionists but failed, so the Zionists have taken over the West. Now they are trying to take out Islam and the East.
The damage Adolf did brought down the British Empire and gave the world some breathing space.

[Futuwwa]

Ignore Karl, he's a far-right conspiracy theorist. Some of the things he says are like right out of the Glenn Beck Conspiracy Generator.

[Karl]

Ignore Karl, he's a far-right conspiracy theorist. Some of the things he says are like right out of the Glenn Beck Conspiracy Generator.

I suppose you are another Scandinavian communist. How sad, once a land of great kings reduced to communist shills of the Zionist NWO. Are you a modern communist Muslim?

[M.I.A.]

Really, in the same way as our science was perfect as stated in the science books 1400 years ago? :embarrass

its not an accurate representation..

as always the answers are not so simple,

religion is not the same as observation and experimentation.. sure a person can use intellect and questioning to come to a conclusion about how the world works.

but religion is through revelation.

its based on something else.


the flip side of the argument is that gods will is always done and even though people blame the corrupt west, the west drives innovation and advancement that we all take for granted.

live in pain for a while and you wont mind taking the pills...

reality does make a person bitter... but it gives understanding.


it makes sure that a person grows from child to man... although not all men are created equal.


so i find it very difficult to label unbelief, especially when those that profess it bring much instability to the world and yet would not consider themselves wrong.

if they were to be given power, they would very much resemble the tyrants they oppose today...


they would become the wicked west that oppresses and conquers as it moves forward and only vests its interests into strengthening its own foundations...

they would be fools not to.


or would they be something that brings light and guidance to the world, selfless and merciful..

hands outstretched to be taken advantage of.


the world is not simple, but to claim naivety will just not work.

the truth is written on our faces and in our words.




if you were to have a perfect state for the masses,

it would include free healthcare.

subsidized living for the poor.

fair work treatment and minimum wage.

equal rights and representation.


in this respect, many western countries are way ahead of islamic countries... there may be exceptions, but not many.

BUT even if you did achieve a perfect islamic state, it would still not be heaven. there would always be conflict.. simply because it is the nature of man.


does religion improve with age as science does?


to be fair kkawohl1, islam is perfect.. seriously even with 1400 years of hindsight there is not much you could challenge of it, taken as a whole.

[Futuwwa]

I suppose you are another Scandinavian communist. How sad, once a land of great kings reduced to communist shills of the Zionist NWO. Are you a modern communist Muslim?

I run over Zionists with my Communist giant missile parade.