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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 09:59 PM
I guess this is a pretty simple question with good philsophical ramifications.

Is "Love" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality?

What this means is this: Does "Love" as an existent, discrete reality need Creation to exist in order to be actual?

Conceptually, let's say that we "in" the pre-Creation, uncreated state of all reality. Where there is nothing but Allah.

Does Love exist "here"? If so, how? If not, why not?

Fire away, brothers and sisters. :shade:
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:05 PM
Is "Heartburn" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality? What this means is this: Does "heartburn" as an existent, discrete reality need Creation to exist in order to be actual? Conceptually, let's say that we "in" the pre-Creation, uncreated state of all reality. Where there is nothing but Allah. Does heartburn exist "here"? If so, how? If not, why not

sorry I couldn't help it.. :haha: take the emotion of your choice and stick it there.. since I have been feeling heartburn from my mac and cheese, I think it is a more pressing reality than love at the moment, would really love to discuss it in philosophical terms and considerations.. Fire away, brothers and sisters.
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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Ok, Lily. Let's perhaps make it more "relevant" to you...aiight?

Has it eternally been the case that that Allah has experienced Himself as the "All-Loving One" and "All-Compassionate One" pre-Creation...when the only reality was Allah's uncreated Presence? If so, how? By what context?

Hmmm...more interesting? The questions essentially describe the same reality.
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Ok, Lily. Let's perhaps make it more "relevant" to you...aiight? Has it eternally been the case that that Allah has experienced Himself as the "All-Loving One" and "All-Compassionate One" pre-Creation...when the only reality was Allah's uncreated Presence? If so, how? By what context? Hmmm...more interesting?

We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.
I don't think your question is ''hmmmmmm.. more interesting'' I believe it falls by way of vain discourse and I suppose one will constantly feel this dilemma if God can suckle, and Annunciate and pray and die.. so perhaps this is best addressed to christians on a christian forum?

all the best
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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 10:20 PM
Compassion is "other-oriented benefaction" in it's essence. Lovingkindness deals with the experience of empathy, the presupposition of intimate relationships and communion with others, experiencing another's pain/pleasure as one's own.

Do these things exist eternally as actualities? Or are they mere potentialities that only actualize when there's a Creation.
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Compassion is "other-oriented benefaction" in it's essence. Lovingkindness deals with the experience of empathy, the presupposition of intimate relationships and communion with others, experiencing another's pain/pleasure as one's own.

Do these things exist eternally as actualities? Or are they mere potentialities that only actualize when there's a Creation.
Certainly God doesn't need creation to be the being of God. our life is based on compare and contrast and measurements, we wouldn't know of light without darkness, of health without sickness, or happiness without misery, of pain without well being. These laws only apply to us.. compare and contrast need not exist outside of our known universe and may not even exist in the way we understand it by other creatures.
We know of four seasons, perhaps there are 16 on a different plane and realm that we can't even remotely fathom.
How is it that you have the unmitigated effrontery to speculate of the being of God? Why must everything be brought down to your low common denominator for you to display some semblance of belief?


[Pickthal 21:16] We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.
[Pickthal 21:17] If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.
[Pickthal 21:18] Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).
[Pickthal 21:19] Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who dwell in His presence are not too proud to worship Him, nor do they weary;
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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 10:34 PM
Lily:
We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.

But I thought that God revealed Godself as the "All-Compassionate One" and the "All-Loving One", right? The question is simple: Has Allah always experienced himself this way, even without Creation...or did the Uncreated Allah "need" Creation in order to experience Himself as "Loving" and "Compassionate?

This ain't got nothing to do with Christianity at all. Seriously. I ain't even on that...so let's kill all that. This is more of a philsophical question in the idea of God as uncreated, eternal monadic personal being. Basically, is it philosophically tenable for Allah as an absolute monad experience Himself as Loving or Compassionate pre-Creation...when "all" was uncreated?

That's a fair, NON-theological question.

So, I guess this is for any with a philosophical bent. Whoever wants to engage, do so. :D
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Lily:
We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.

But I thought that God revealed Godself as the "All-Compassionate One" and the "All-Loving One", right? The question is simple: Has Allah always experienced himself this way, even without Creation...or did the Uncreated Allah "need" Creation in order to experience Himself as "Loving" and "Compassionate?

This ain't got nothing to do with Christianity at all. Seriously. I ain't even on that...so let's kill all that. This is more of a philsophical question in the idea of God as uncreated, eternal monadic personal being. Basically, is it philosophically tenable for Allah as an absolute monad experience Himself as Loving or Compassionate pre-Creation...when "all" was uncreated?

That's a fair, NON-theological question.

So, I guess this is for any with a philosophical bent. Whoever wants to engage, do so. :D

see reply number 6--and try to use quotes, it is very confusing to sort through what the crap you write from what others write. It is common courtesy and it is free!

all the best
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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 10:41 PM
A shorter way of saying it...

Was Allah eternally "al-Rahman"? Did Allah experience himself as beneficent, compassionate, love-giving when nothing else but Allah existed? If so, how?

This is not sacreligious to ask. God has revealed Himself as person (I Am)...and has revealed himself as All-Compassionate, All-Loving, and All-Beneficent. So we are talking about the philosophical ramification of what Allah has revealed about himself.

That's totally fair.
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
A shorter way of saying it... Was Allah eternally "al-Rahman"? Did Allah experience himself as beneficent, compassionate, love-giving when nothing else but Allah existed? If so, how? This is not sacreligious to ask. God has revealed Himself as person (I Am)...and has revealed himself as All-Compassionate, All-Loving, and All-Beneficent. So we are talking about the philosophical ramification of what Allah has revealed about himself. That's totally fair.

Rather God revealed those as attributes of his being .. God isn't a person except in christian mythology!

all the best
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YieldedOne
03-13-2011, 10:49 PM
Whoa! The One God who spoke to and listened to Abraham wasn't a unique personal being capable of communicating with another personal being?

What? Are you serious?
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Dagless
03-13-2011, 10:50 PM
This question is similar to the "can God lift a stone..." type questions. The only thing which is eternal is God therefore Love cannot exist alone since that would imply it exists independently of God. The reason it's not a valid question is that you could just as easily say that if humans were not created would God know Chinese? These questions are flawed because you are questioning God like our rules apply to Him. We cannot comprehend would be the most accurate answer.
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Flame of Hope
03-13-2011, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Is "Love" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality?
To answer your main question: Is Love an eternal, uncreated reality?

The answer is, "Love" is a created thing, just as other unseen things are also created things, such as Paradise and Hell. Before the creation of such things as "Love", "Compassion", "Mercy", "Justice" etc..... there had to have been a Creator who came before all these. This Creator, who is also known by the name of Al-Awwal, meaning The First, created all things that we can see as well as things that we can't see.

"Love" is only one of His creations and it's an eternal quality. A quality which matches the quality of the Creator Himself, who is The Eternal.
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جوري
03-13-2011, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Whoa! The One God who spoke to and listened to Abraham wasn't a unique personal being capable of communicating with another personal being?

What? Are you serious?
format_quote Originally Posted by YieldedOne
God has revealed Himself as person (I Am).

Do you know what the definition of a person is?



so Yeah I am serious. God didn't describe his being as a person, again, perhaps that is an easier concept that is in concert with christian mythology but not with Islam.
Also see Br. Dagless comment on the matter, you can also google it under Islamicboard and will see how the topic was tackled in multitudes of ways .. it just another non-question posed by Idolaters although more favored by atheists!

all the best
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CosmicPathos
03-13-2011, 11:04 PM
ah, another thread on love?

all I know is that I love trees. Would this love exist if trees didnt exist?
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CosmicPathos
03-13-2011, 11:05 PM
and its funny how dollar stores sell those "guardian angels" to be put on the car dashboard.
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PouringRain
03-13-2011, 11:19 PM
I agree with Vale's Lily in post number 6 that we as humans tend to think in dichotomies. We cannot truly experience one without the other. We must know dark to be able to know light. God exists outside of these contrasts.

At the same time God "is" all of these things. Does "love" exist outside of creation? Absolutely, because God is love. When you wrote that God is the "I am," you must also think of what that means. What is it to say God is the "I am"? "I am _____." God IS love. God IS merciful. God IS compassionate. God IS grace. God IS the provider. God IS..... He is all that we can think that he is and more. He exists outside of creation. He exists before creation. He is not dependent upon his creation. To ask if he is _____ apart from creation is like asking if he exists apart from creation. Creation does not add or subtract from God.

Since you focused on love, I will only say that what the majority of humankind imagines "love" is, is not truly what God's love is. Most are incapable of fathoming the definition and dimensions of his love.

Just my opinion. :)
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PouringRain
03-13-2011, 11:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
ah, another thread on love?

all I know is that I love trees. Would this love exist if trees didnt exist?
It's spring.......... love is in the air. :nervous:
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Ramadhan
03-13-2011, 11:57 PM
Christians truly love to follow their desires and whims without evidence.
Even evidence from their own bible that says Jesus is not God.

Since the OP asked in an ISLAMIC forum whether love is eternal, uncreated, here's the answer with evidence:

Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allaho anho) related that the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) said: "Allah created mercy in one hundred parts and distributed to His creation only one part. Because of this one part, there is mutual love amongst creation, so much so that an animal will lift up its hoof from its young one, fearing that it might harm it. Allah has reserved the remaining ninety-nine parts of this mercy to favour His believing servants on the Day of Judgment. " (Bukhari and Muslim)

Remember that mercy encompasses love.
Not only that, how can anything be uncreated when the only uncreated is God.


I am actually very amused how christians make such a big deal of such limited emotion such as love.
And to say that love is uncreated!!!
What, do christians now worship love?
So worshipping a man who took toilet breaks is not enough for christians that they now worship love and think love is all that there is?

Unbelievable!
Thats what you get when you don't have the truth.
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LavaDog
03-14-2011, 12:29 AM
Love is really just a combination of attachment and lust, and it has been proven the best way for a child to be raised is in a enviroment with both a mother and father. Love could just be a psychological function to help that happen.
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Zafran
03-14-2011, 01:01 AM
Salaam

I like how he focuses on love yet forgets about pain and suffering - they are all alike.

peace
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YieldedOne
03-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Thanks for all the interaction, all! I've got more to say, but I'll put this quickly.

I think that Sufi Muslims don't devalue love at all. See Rabia Basri as an example.

A "limited" emotion, indeed. Heh.
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Ramadhan
03-14-2011, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
Thanks for all the interaction, all! I've got more to say, but I'll put this quickly.

your m.o. remains the same as in the other threads, instead of engaging in discussions, you keep on trying to shove your idea of Islam and disregarded every explanations offered to you.

format_quote Originally Posted by
A "limited" emotion, indeed. Heh.
yes.
Your god jesus killed and struck down enemies of the jews; women, babies and all.
so jesus killing all those people is "love"?

christians certainly have some sick twisted concept of love.
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YieldedOne
03-14-2011, 04:56 PM
Not a problem, Naidamar. I won't "waste" time further. It was good to get thoughts on this subject. I think I've gotten the impression that Love is a "creation" of God...so I see that. This has been a wonderful "dip" in the pool of interfaith dialogue and I've learned much.

Allah's peace and blessings to all! :)
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Woodrow
03-14-2011, 05:12 PM
English is stuck with just one or 2 words to denote Love. Love is many faceted and english does not have an adequate vocabulary to describe the various forms we have things like:

Love of God(swt)
Love of country
Love of Religion
Love of a Parent
Love of a Mother
Love of a Father
Love of a spouse
Love of a child
Love of a possession
Love of an object of beauty
Love of nature
Love of Life
Love of a concept/idea
Love of life

and many, many more. each very unique and only thing in common is each evokes a pleasant visceral feeling.

In some things it is evident the love is a created thing and sometimes even has to be experienced and learned. such as the Love for literature (for many people, it has to be learned and developed)

Yet some types of love seem to have been part of our nature and was given to some of us the moment we were created. Such as an innate Love for God(swt).

To answer the question some love is eternal and uncreated, while the most common loves we all experience seem to require the creation of the object or concept followed by a learning period that leads to the discovery of a love.
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YieldedOne
03-14-2011, 05:32 PM
Man, Woodrow. That was compelling. Your response was really inspiring...and gave me a new perspective on this.

Let it be said that Allah is ultimately an unknowable mystery. But I don't think it's wrong to say that Allah can know Himself and love Himself. Supposedly it's possible for a personal being to love themselves, such that the experience "evokes a pleasant visceral feeling" within them. Surely, Allah could have such an experience about Himself...even before Creation existed, yes? Basically, it's not sacreligious or impious to say that Allah knows himself and loves what he knows about Himself. We are not talking about narcissistic dysfunctional self-preoccupation. Healthy self-understanding and true self-appreciation would be the human analogy of what we speak. As I think of it, Allah's healthy love for Himself would be the only type of Love that can be eternal and uncreated. If this is true, then the "love of God" is an eternal, uncreated reality...and needs no creaturely thing as a referent.

And what's interesting is just what Woodrow stated about the "innate love for God". I think that the "innate Love for God" that is "part of our nature" and "given to some of us the moment we were created" would be re-presentative of that eternal, uncreated reality. When WE love Allah with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, we image what Allah has always done...even before Creation. That's probably why loving Allah with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength is the Greatest Commandment. Allah commands us to do for Him...what He's always done for Himself, and in so doing, participate in eternal, uncreated reality.

Said a different way, living in the love for God is living in the eternal and uncreated while still in Creation.

Total Love for God (and submission to God and God's Will out of that love) is "eternal life."

Maybe?

Anyway...Thanks a bunch, Woodrow. I was gone, but your response was very, very compelling! Thanks again! :D
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siam
03-15-2011, 03:02 AM
Is the Islamic concept of God a monad?---We do say God is One, Indivisible, "Unity".....
---but God is not One as in a number for when we think of a numerical one, it means there is a two and a three...etc....And the same also works for physical or conceptual indivisibilty or the idea of a Unity as a"self-contained", "independent entity".....words create limitations and God cannot be "contained" or limited. Lao Tzu says in the Tao te Ching, "Tao is beyond words and beyond understanding. Words may be used to speak of it, but they cannot contain it."

So when we use words and concepts we distort the Divine. When we speak of God "loving himself" ---the question arises---Does God have a "self"(consiousness). It is important for Muslims to not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising God for then we might create mental images.---This dangerously limits our understanding of God.

So how can Muslims understand God? Tawheed is an instinctive/intuitive understanding of the Divine that does not have to rely on the limitations of language. (fitrah) This is also an idea echoed (again) by Lao Tzu,
"Since before time and space were, Tao is.
it is beyond "is" and "is not".
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.

This is what highly developed spiritual seekers do--they look inside themselves and discover the embedded knowledge of tawheed. But when they try to express it in words/language, they often fail to convey its limitless vastness. ---and normal people like us misunderstand......

The emotion of love can be divided into 2 types. The love of "self" or self-love, and the love of other or selfless-love. When the Quran speaks of the attributes of Al-rahman, Al-rahim, it is speaking in the context of "selfless love". It is this aspect of Tawheed that the Sufi poets try to mirror in themselves and express.....

Again, Lao tzu explain this relationship of Love----

"The Tao gives birth to all beings
Nourishes them,
Maintains them
Cares for them
Takes them back to itself
Creating without possessing
Acting witout expecting
Guiding without interfering
That is why the love of the Tao
Is in the very nature of things"


God is compassionate and merciful to all his creation--words/language can only give us a glimpse---the size of an atom.
Just as it is dangerous to anthropomorphise God, it is equally dangerous to give divinity to created/human concepts such as love, compassion...etc. Thus when we speak of things such as love, we are using language and this restricts expression to human understanding and human concepts. Attributes of God used for purposes of human understanding are only a tiny glimpse.
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