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3rddec
03-19-2011, 03:57 PM
"More Black Stones:
Deities of other cultures known to have been associated
with stones include Aphrodite at Paphos, Cybele at Pessinus
and later Rome, Astarte at Byblos and the famous Artemis/
Diana of Ephesus. The later's most ancient sculpture was,
it is said, carved from a black meteorite.
The stone associated with Cybele's worship was, originally,
probably at Pessinus but perhaps at Pergamum or on Mount Ida.
What is certain is that in 204 BCE it was taken to Rome, where
Cybele became 'Mother' to the Romans... Alongside Isis,
Cybele retained prominence in the heart of the Empire until
the fifth century CE; the stone was then lost.
Another site stated to have a Black Stone was at Petra...

Of the Temple at Ephesus, this website says," "That earliest
temple (800 BC) contained a sacred stone, probably a meteorite,
that had 'fallen from Jupiter.' "

I have been informed by some in this Forum that because certain Christian Doctrines have echos in paganism they therefore are in error. From the above is there an echo of the Ka'aba stone in these pagan cultures or is the above all just a falsehood?
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Woodrow
03-19-2011, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by 3rddec
"More Black Stones:
Deities of other cultures known to have been associated
with stones include Aphrodite at Paphos, Cybele at Pessinus
and later Rome, Astarte at Byblos and the famous Artemis/
Diana of Ephesus. The later's most ancient sculpture was,
it is said, carved from a black meteorite.
The stone associated with Cybele's worship was, originally,
probably at Pessinus but perhaps at Pergamum or on Mount Ida.
What is certain is that in 204 BCE it was taken to Rome, where
Cybele became 'Mother' to the Romans... Alongside Isis,
Cybele retained prominence in the heart of the Empire until
the fifth century CE; the stone was then lost.
Another site stated to have a Black Stone was at Petra...

Of the Temple at Ephesus, this website says," "That earliest
temple (800 BC) contained a sacred stone, probably a meteorite,
that had 'fallen from Jupiter.' "

I have been informed by some in this Forum that because certain Christian Doctrines have echos in paganism they therefore are in error. From the above is there an echo of the Ka'aba stone in these pagan cultures or is the above all just a falsehood?
Stones have often been worshiped by pagan cultures especially meteorites. The stones in the Ka'abah are not worshiped. They are held in high esteem as important relics as they are the only remnants of the first alter used by mankind. They are what remains of the alter used by Adam(as), Abraham(as) and probably other Prophets(PBUH).



As you can see from the worn appearance they have been handled many times over the centuries. Worn as smooth as river rocks. Very little left of what they originally were.

Sadly over the centuries the alter had fallen into pagan hands on occasions and has been badly mistreated, pieces chipped off as souvenirs, attempts at destroying it etc. All that remains are a few small fragments. We really do not know what color the alter originally was, some believe it was white, but the stones gradually turned black as the result of centuries of handling and exposure to the weather. Or because of the sins of mankind.

While the rocks are of importance and very respected relics, they are not worshiped and even if they finally disintegrate to nothing it will not affect Islam.

The Ka'abah was not always the locations of the Qiblah (Direction of prayer. Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem was the Qiblah at one time. This should indicate that the Black stone is not essential to mark the direction of Qiblah.

I do not see any connection between pagan rock worship and the alter fragments in the Ka'abah.
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Perseveranze
03-19-2011, 07:44 PM
Peace,

The stone is not worshiped, nor is the Ka'bah. In an authentic hadith the Prophet(pbuh) him said that rather the Ka'bah be burned to the ground than the blood of a Muslim spilt.
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3rddec
03-19-2011, 08:09 PM
Is there a risk than non islamic religious may try and suggest that it is really a remnant from a pagan culture and misunderstand that there could be some apparant similarities to seeing people bow and pray in the direction of a black stone to pagans in the above cults doing similar in their pagan temples. Much like some people try to see similarities in certain christian beliefs and pagan myths and try to link the two. Would you not agree that to do either of these things would be to show no respects for the true source of both customs and belief

Love and Respect
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- Qatada -
03-19-2011, 08:12 PM
:salamext:



Bible also mentioned this name.

"As they pass through the Valley of BACA, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools" [Psalm 84:6]

"Verily, the First House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that is BACCA, Full of blessing, and guidance for all people" [Quran, 3:96]



The Stone of kabba can do nothing.

Umar said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet Touching and kissing you, I would never have touched and and kissed you" [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Chapter 56, Number 675]


Worship idol is prohibited in Islam
:

"And they set up idols as equal to God, to mislead men from path! Say: "Enjoy (your belief power)! BUT VERILY YE ARE MAKING STRAIGHTWAY FOR HELL!" [Quran, 14:30]

"Say He is God, One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor He begotten; And there is none like unto Him..[Quran, chapter 112]
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Woodrow
03-19-2011, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by 3rddec
Is there a risk than non islamic religious may try and suggest that it is really a remnant from a pagan culture and misunderstand that there could be some apparant similarities to seeing people bow and pray in the direction of a black stone to pagans in the above cults doing similar in their pagan temples. Much like some people try to see similarities in certain christian beliefs and pagan myths and try to link the two. Would you not agree that to do either of these things would be to show no respects for the true source of both customs and belief

Love and Respect
I think I see the point you are making. I do agree that we sometimes associate pagan backgrounds to Christian beliefs and the similarity is unrelated.

But one thing that leads to the confusion is the times when Pagan beliefs were adapted into Christianity and sort of modified to fit in. For example the adaption of the name Easter & Changing the Yule holiday of the Druids to Christmas etc, Plus the apparent loss of continuity from the Aramaic spoken by Jesus(as) to Greek leaves the impression that Christianity adapted ancient Greek beliefs.
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Al-Indunisiy
03-20-2011, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by 3rddec
Is there a risk than non islamic religious may try and suggest that it is really a remnant from a pagan culture and misunderstand that there could be some apparant similarities to seeing people bow and pray in the direction of a black stone to pagans in the above cults doing similar in their pagan temples. Much like some people try to see similarities in certain christian beliefs and pagan myths and try to link the two. Would you not agree that to do either of these things would be to show no respects for the true source of both customs and belief

Love and Respect
Someone already did. Look up for 'Ka'ba' and 'Linggam' on Google.
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Ramadhan
03-21-2011, 03:53 AM
Again, this is one of 3rddec's garbage false accusations that he took from anti islam website (even he admitted in another thread recently that he took his knowledge about Islam from anti islam website).
By titling the thread with "should people pray towards black stones", he even could not differentiate between ka'bah and hajar aswad.
So far, the op attempts at trying to connect Islam worhsip practices with pagan symbols have fallen flat (moon crescent, black stones, whats next?). The op should try instead examining his own faith, which is a gold mine for pagan associations, which I will be helping him with my future threads.

In short: muslims do not pray towards black stones. And black stones do not have any significance in muslim's creed apart from the mention that it was kissed by the prophet SAW.

Muslims, however pray in the direction of Ka'bah, and when in masjidil haram, muslims do Tawaf (circumambalation of Ka'bah).
Here's info regarding tawaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaf

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Ramadhan
03-21-2011, 04:00 AM
Tawaf is another sign and proof that Islam is the truth.

Tawaf is done circumambalating/spinning/revolving a center (ka'bah) while singing praise to Allah SWT, while everyone knows, especially scientists, that everything in this universe from the biggest bodies (galaxies), to solar systems, to stars, to planets, to moons/satellites, down to the smallest particles of atoms and electrons ALL revolve around their respective centers. This is evidence that the command to do tawaf must have come from none other than the creator of the universe.
Muhammad SAW was fully illiterate let alone having knowledge how stars and galaxies move.

As Allah says in the Qur'an:
"The seven heavens and the Earth and all that exists within them sing the praises of God; there is no atom that does not praise God with thanks and gratitude, although you may be unaware of how this praise is expressed." (17:44; 3:38)

a good article on tawaf:

Allah Almighty says:

"And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating." (Al-Anbiya, 21: 33)


This glorious verse refers to a scientific fact concerning the system of the universe. Scientific discoveries have proved that we live in a huge universe that depends on revolution. The earth revolves round the sun once a year, the moon revolves around the earth once per lunar month, and the other planets of the solar system also revolve round the sun, each in its own orbit. Besides, most of these planets have moons that revolve around them, each, also in its own orbit. Astronomers have discovered more than 60 of these moons so far.

The solar system, likewise, orbits a center of our galaxy, the Milky Way. This galaxy consists of more than 130 billion stars. Galaxies, in turn, revolve round a center that only Almighty Allah knows.

The law of revolution applies also to atoms, the smallest units of elements that cannot be seen even by microscopes. An atom is composed of a nucleus whose diameter is less than a millionth of a millimeter. An atom is surrounded by electrons that move round the atom in an orbit. Since all matter in the universe-whether solid, liquid, or gaseous consists of atoms, this means that the law of revolution applies to everything: stars, planets, moons, animals, plants, sand, seas, air, and so on.

This includes cells as well. The cytoplasm in the cell moves around the nucleus.
There is a common factor between the orbital movements of all the objects referred to above, this is, and their revolution is anti-clockwise.
Contemplating the above lines, we come to realize that revolution is a cosmic law.
With a believer's meditation upon such a scientific fact, another image of revolution is brought to one s mind: the pilgrim's circumambulation of the Kaaba, which is a basic ritual of Hajj in Islam.

Circumambulating the Kaaba is a symbolic act of worship, whose wisdom may be hidden from some. It indicates the believer's utter submission to Almighty Allah alone. The pilgrims go to Hajj in response to the divine order that Prophet Ibrahim or Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) conveyed to people.
Allah Almighty says: "And (remember) when We showed Ibrahim the site of the (Sacred) House (the Kaaba at Makkah), saying: Ascribe not anything (in worship) with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up (for prayer), and those who bow (submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allah), and make prostration (in prayer). And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)." (Al-Hajj, 22:26-27).

This signifies that the Kaaba is the spiritual center of the believers. It refers to the close bond that should be between a believer and his Lord. A believer turns toward the Kaaba five times a day during the prescribed ritual Prayers.
A pilgrim circumambulates the Kaaba as if he or she is a celestial body orbiting another greater body. Circumambulation of the Kaaba is to be performed anti-clockwise. This indicates that there is a joint factor between a pilgrim's expressing his ultimate faith in Almighty Allah by circumambulating the Kaaba in that way and between the cosmic laws of revolution discussed above. This indicates that there is consistency between the obligations of worship in Islam and the natural laws that govern the universe, which indicates that they all belong to only one source, that is, Almighty Allah.
This proves the truthfulness of the call of Islam that there is no god but Almighty Allah. Thus, Islam is the true religion that provides humankind with a comprehensive view in conformity with the divine truth that is apparent in the natural laws of the universe.

Tawaf: Utmost degree of love
Circumambulation means to go round something. This act shows the utmost degree of love to the extent that a lover wishes to sacrifice himself for the beloved. A real pilgrim who has thirst for meeting his Beloved has been detached from everything. By going round the House of the Beloved, he wishes to prove that he desires nothing but God.
The planets circumambulate the sun, for they take everything from it. Inside an atom, the electrons circumambulate the protons. The whole universe ranging from the invisible particles to the planets and galaxies circumambulate. Man, being a part of the universe, should circumambulate, too, with the difference that the planets circumambulate in a compulsory way according to the laws of nature, but man, the rational being and possessor of free will, circumambulates with his logic and will a House God has appointed to honor human beings. Hence, it is natural for Muslims to offer their prayers, to sit, to stand, to recite the Holy Quran, to sleep, to lie down at the moment of death, to be put in grave, and finally to be in that direction during their lifetimes and death.
"Say: Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are all for Allah, the Lord of the worlds." (Al-Anaam, 6:162)

http://www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj10.asp
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Pygoscelis
03-21-2011, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
rather the Ka'bah be burned to the ground than the blood of a Muslim spilt.
What of the blood of everybody else? The Ka'bah is less important than one muslim life. What about a Hindu life?
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SalamChristian
03-21-2011, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What of the blood of everybody else? The Ka'bah is less important than one muslim life. What about a Hindu life?
Hmm. That's a gonna be a doozie for some of our Muslim brothers to answer, I'm guessing :) Seeing as this is the historically geographical source of the violence between Muslims and non-muslims.
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Ramadhan
03-21-2011, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by
What of the blood of everybody else? The Ka'bah is less important than one muslim life. What about a Hindu life?
From http://www.questionsonislam.com/inde...ow_qna&id=2173

It is because of this that We ordained for (all humankind, but particularly for) the Children of Israel: He who kills a soul unless it be (in legal punishment) for murder or for causing disorder and corruption on the earth will be as if he had killed all humankind; and he who saves a life will be as if he had saved the lives of all humankind. Assuredly, there came to them Our Messengers (one after the other) with clear proofs of the truth (so that they might be revived both individually and as a people). Then (in spite of all this), many of them go on committing excesses on the earth.(The Qur’an, Al-Ma’idah, 5:32)

According to rumors, some Jewish people from Madinah were planning to ambush and kill the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him) and some of the believers. For this reason, Allah, The Almighty informed them that killing a person unjustifiably is like killing all humankind and saving a person is like saving all humankind in order to show them what a serious crime it is to kill a person.
This information is not included in the Bible; however, in Mishna ( Sanhedrin, IV/5), there is a statement :
if any causes an Israelite’s life to be lost, it is on him as if he has lost a whole world, and if anyone saves an Israelite, it is on him as if he saved a whole world”.
Those who do not call on any other deity together with God and do not kill anyone God has made inviolate, except with the right to do so, and do not fornicate; anyone who does that will receive an evil punishment. (Surat al-Furqan: 68)

Through Islam, Allah command us to be just. And have compassion:
To be one of those who believe and urge each other to steadfastness and urge each other to compassion. Those are the Companions of the Right. (Surat al-Balad: 17-18)

But please no more derailing the thread with your usual venoms.
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Woodrow
03-21-2011, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What of the blood of everybody else? The Ka'bah is less important than one muslim life. What about a Hindu life?
Every person is a potential Muslim until they have breathed their last breath. We are told that ""Whoever kills another one without justifiable cause, surely he is killing all of humanity. And whoever saves the life of another one, surely he saves the lives of all of humanity". [Sura Al Ma'aidah: Ayah 32]"

There is high value placed upon all Human life.

I believe the hadith Quoted by Brother Perseverance, simply points out that we place no worship value upon the Ka'bah itself or the black stone. Another way of saying that even without the Ka'bah we would still be Muslim.

The question as if the Ka'bah is worth more than the life of one non-Muslim is not even an issue. It is not possible for a non-Muslim to legally be anywhere near the Ka'Bah so the standing or destruction of the Ka'bah should have no effect on any non-Muslim.
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Fivesolas
03-21-2011, 10:53 PM
Is it true that it is called "the cornerstone of the House" ?
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3rddec
03-22-2011, 12:35 AM
im sorry but if you are going to quote me I said I look at pro and anti Islamic sites otherwise how would I gain an understanding of both sides. Who in their right mind would not try to read the plans and ideas of someone you want to debate with. As for the not praying in the direction of black stones maybe Woodrow could clarify if there are black stones as part of the Kabba and that at the moment that is at present the marker for for the Qiblah so in effect whether you like it or not you are praying in the direction of black stones. At no point have I said you worship them. Why would anyone jump to the conclusion you worship black stones just because they are located at a famous muslim shrine that you pray towards. Thats of course very different from what pagans were doing as we all know better than to cast aspersions on tennents of beliefs of others just because it bears a slight similarity to what pagans in their ignorance believed or did.

Love and Respect
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Ramadhan
03-22-2011, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by
im sorry but if you are going to quote me I said I look at pro and anti Islamic sites otherwise how would I gain an understanding of both sides. Who in their right mind would not try to read the plans and ideas of someone you want to debate with. As for the not praying in the direction of black stones maybe Woodrow could clarify if there are black stones as part of the Kabba and that at the moment that is at present the marker for for the Qiblah so in effect whether you like it or not you are praying in the direction of black stones. At no point have I said you worship them. Why would anyone jump to the conclusion you worship black stones just because they are located at a famous muslim shrine that you pray towards. Thats of course very different from what pagans were doing as we all know better than to cast aspersions on tennents of beliefs of others just because it bears a slight similarity to what pagans in their ignorance believed or did.


Did you not read the explanations given in the posts above? or are you, per usual, stuck deep inside your own self that you failed to discern what has been explained to you?
The Qiblah is ka'bah and nothing to do with hajar aswad. Even if hajar aswad is lost or moved to anywhere on this planet we will still perform shalah towards ka'bah. Can you for a moment actually read and learn what qiblah, kabah and hajar aswad are before you go with your usual infantile slurs against Islam. I am only saving you from embarrassments.
And if you really didn't know, then you should have asked instead of continually making false slurs.
But I guess learning about Islam was never your motivation.

And about casting aspersions on the tenets of other beliefs, if you only applied it to your own religion the .001% of the critical standards that you expect from Islam, you would be able to see how false your religion is.
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3rddec
03-22-2011, 05:58 PM
dear Naidamar its clear you don't appreciate exactly what im trying to achieve through this thread so let me make it so clear even you cant miss it.

I do not believe that Moons on the spires of many Mosques mean Muslims worship the moon as pagans did.

Nor do I believe that Muslims are worshiping these black rocks or even the Shrine of the Ka'ba even if they happen to be acting very similar to pagans when they would bow down in the direction of black stones in their temples.

The point i am however trying to achieve by poking at these things is that it is wrong to use as an arguement against a practice/ belief/ or custom of another religion that it has echos or similarity to something pagans did or believed in.

If no-one in this forum can see this then i'm afraid this is not a discussion or debate site but a ranting space.

I should like to hope that there are more active people in here than compulsive ranters

Love and Respect
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- Qatada -
03-22-2011, 06:32 PM
3rddec, the problem is that many aspects of other religions give their stones and rocks a gradual 'intermediary' divine context. I.e. Hindus did not originally claim to worship their idols, but they just claimed they were blessed images which described God's Attributes. However, now they pray to these idols as 'intermediaries' between themselves and God. Even though these idols are made of stone and cannot hear a thing.


Islam forbids and prevents all means for that, and is strictly against it. For example; In regard to the Ka'ba - we know that Bilaal (a black african freed slave) - an honored Companion of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) stood on the Ka'ba and performed the Call to Prayer [Adhaan].

If we however see other religions, standing on something similar to the sanctity of the Ka'ba (of Islam) is a sign of sacrilege.
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Dagless
03-22-2011, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by 3rddec
The point i am however trying to achieve by poking at these things is that it is wrong to use as an arguement against a practice/ belief/ or custom of another religion that it has echos or similarity to something pagans did or believed in.

If no-one in this forum can see this then i'm afraid this is not a discussion or debate site but a ranting space.

I should like to hope that there are more active people in here than compulsive ranters
I really can't see this at all. The pagans worshipped the stone(s), whereas Muslims do not. The key point here is worship and nothing else. Otherwise you could compare almost anything. You could say the pagans wore clothes and Muslims wear clothes, isn't that similarity to what the pagans did?
Just in case you think kissing something out of respect is a form of worship; are the Christians who kiss the Pope's ring actually ring worshippers rather than Christians?
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3rddec
03-22-2011, 11:04 PM
Thank you Quatata and Dagless thank you for getting my point im hoping that in future others discussing Christian beliefs and Practices are very carefull not to just label them as pagan from superfluous similarity to pagan practices and just focus on the Christian interpretation and belief in what they are doing and on the scriptural backing to any of these. To be honest I find the arguement its all pagan just as invalid when Christians say the same of Muslims; its clearly different. Its just a castaway comment that actually prevents any serious look at the point in discussion and actually thinking about any merit in any proposed arguements and ideas.

Love and Respect
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Ramadhan
03-23-2011, 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by
Thank you Quatata and Dagless thank you for getting my point im hoping that in future others discussing Christian beliefs and Practices are very carefull not to just label them as pagan from superfluous similarity to pagan practices and just focus on the Christian interpretation and belief in what they are doing and on the scriptural backing to any of these. To be honest I find the arguement its all pagan just as invalid when Christians say the same of Muslims; its clearly different. Its just a castaway comment that actually prevents any serious look at the point in discussion and actually thinking about any merit in any proposed arguements and ideas.


Even if you ask us to ignore your christmas (25 december) celebration and to not label it as pagan
even if you ask us to ignore easter celebration and to not label it as pagan
even if you ask us to ignore all the crosses, statues, saints, popes, etc and to not label them as pagan
etc.

Are you still going to ask us to ignore that you indeed worship a man as god?
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3rddec
03-23-2011, 08:18 PM
I don't ask you to ignore anything all i ask is you ask us why we believe what we do ; not just assume that what we believe is pagan in origin just because is shares some superfluous similarity to what some pagan believed. Im sure if we explored every pagan belief and festival from all the varied cultures we could find similarities with everything as I tried to demonstrate with the stones. I am just saying labeling it pagan is just unscholarly and self deceptive as anyone who explores the concepts fully will agree whatever there personal belief about the rights or wrongs it is nothing like what the pagans were believing even if it looks similar at a slight glance.

Love and respect.
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Little_Lion
03-24-2011, 11:21 PM
The problem, 3rd, is that in many cases the comparisons ARE scholarly. There were many pagan symbols that were adopted by the Church so as to better assimilate European cultures. This is taught in Catholic schools to thousands of faithful a day. :/
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3rddec
03-25-2011, 04:54 PM
being honest it is not taught in schools ; in reality the question of where the symbols and their origins are not discussed in schools (Catholic I cant speek for protestant). In reality it is only discussed if someone asks the question and you are correct this is the standard reply given then. As far as symbols go I have no issue with symbols as they are just a means of expressing an idea just as words are.
My particular bug bear is the attempt to label ideas that are developed from scripture and tradition as pagan purely based on superfluous likeness to pagan ideas. Some ancient christians seen this too and they felt the answer was obvious, satan knew the truth about God and tried to anticipate Christs mission from what he coulds read from the old testament prophets and tried to create confusion by spreading similar ideas in pagan cultures before , during and after Christ to taint the truth taught by Christians.

To be honest I find both positions very medieval and wish people would stick to the relevant issue of whether the ideas can be supported in scripture.

Love and respect
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Little_Lion
03-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Well, my husband is sitting right here, and he says he learned it in Catholic school in Religions class. Back home where we had many Catholic schools and many Pagans, there were lots of discussions about this and the Catholics said they learned it in Catholic school. So being honest . . . it is. ;)
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3rddec
03-25-2011, 06:43 PM
we may both be correct ; I was brought up in Christian Brothers Schools in Ireland in the 70's, I suppose I should accept that my experience is not universal. Maybe we should take a straw poll but as I said its the idea of sticking to scripture for evidence is what I'd rather see rather than diversions that then lead to more diversions and before you know it there is not discussion or debate .

Love and Respect
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Little_Lion
03-25-2011, 07:15 PM
Fair enough, 3rd . . . I've been to Ireland and masha'Allah, what a beautiful country; I still miss Balbriggan! And I will most readily admit that had I heard my host family saying they had learned such things in school, I would have been shocked to say the least. Over here though in the US, at least in the Catholic schools I have lived near or spoken to people who have attended, they are being much more . . . open? about the history of Catholicism and its symbolism, hence my exception at the comparisons being deemed "unscholarly". There are several Catholic historians who have substantiated that the ties between Catholic and Pagan symbolism are much more than only skin deep, and that many were adopted outright by the Church so as to better assimilate the European peoples. Unfortunately sometimes such things aren't just in scripture alone, you have to see the entire history. :)
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3rddec
03-25-2011, 07:38 PM
I do agree; but again maybe my wording wasn't the best; the unscholarly comment was really meant to mean just throwing thw word Pagan around without actually really exploring what it is we are believing and why we do it and the scriptoral basis of what we do is unscholarly ( not the looking at how Christianity tried to subvert the traditional practices of the pagans that a perfectly valid area for study and would then lead to a further debate on a different thread) and many of the topics where this word is gratuitisly ( apologies for spelling lol) thrown in have an incredable amount of scripture both pro and con that needs exploring as these beliefs would not have been sustained without thorough scriptural analysis in the first place and remember they have been around for a long time too.

I'm not a lawyer or a theologian ; just Joe blogs doing his best to say what I can as best I can about whatever issue im discussing and learning more in the process.

And yes sometimes I take a gentle poke at things to tease out discussion but not everyone seems to see and understand that :-(

Love and Respect
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Fivesolas
03-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Unfortunately sometimes such things aren't just in scripture alone
Unfortunately indeed...
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3rddec
03-25-2011, 09:14 PM
lol I tripped up on this and couldnt help but post it; as it happened I was looking up Barak o bamma antichrist for some light relief and this turned up in one of the side panels. It should provide some with a laugh and others with a fit of apoplexy but it seems this guy really has lost the plot on the black stones of the Ka'ba . I think the interviewer was struggling in end to keep a straight face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEg7B...eature=related

Love and Respect
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