US Army 'kill team' in Afghanistan posed with photos of murdered civilians

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Commanders brace for backlash of anti-US sentiment that could be more damaging than after the Abu Ghraib scandal

Commanders in Afghanistan are bracing themselves for possible riots and public fury triggered by the publication of "trophy" photographs of US soldiers posing with the dead bodies of defenceless Afghan civilians they killed.

Senior officials at Nato's International Security Assistance Force in Kabul have compared the pictures published by the German news weekly Der Spiegel to the images of US soldiers abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib in Iraq which sparked waves of anti-US protests around the world.

They fear that the pictures could be even more damaging as they show the aftermath of the deliberate murders of Afghan civilians by a rogue US Stryker tank unit that operated in the southern province of Kandahar last year.

Some of the activities of the self-styled "kill team" are already public, with 12 men currently on trial in Seattle for their role in the killing of three civilians.

Five of the soldiers are on trial for pre-meditated murder, after they staged killings to make it look like they were defending themselves from Taliban attacks.

Other charges include the mutilation of corpses, the possession of images of human casualties and drug abuse.

All of the soldiers have denied the charges. They face the death penalty or life in prison if convicted.

The case has already created shock around the world, particularly with the revelations that the men cut "trophies" from the bodies of the people they killed.

An investigation by Der Spiegel has unearthed approximately 4,000 photos and videos taken by the men.

The magazine, which is planning to publish only three images, said that in addition to the crimes the men were on trial for there are "also entire collections of pictures of other victims that some of the defendants were keeping".

The US military has strived to keep the pictures out of the public domain fearing it could inflame feelings at a time when anti-Americanism in Afghanistan is already running high.

rest here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ered-civilians

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

This is terrible.

[LavaDog]

All involved deserve the death penalty, but I do want to point out that 99 percent of the guys over there are trying to help as much as they can and would never hurt civilians.

[Ramadhan]

All involved deserve the death penalty, but I do want to point out that 99 percent of the guys over there are trying to help as much as they can and would never hurt civilians.

Although I understand it is your sentiment as a former service man, but I severely doubt this.
The soldiers are in Afghanistan (or Iraq) because they have to/ordered to. Give them the option between "let's stay to help out the afghanis" or "let's get out of here", and let's see how many actually choose to stay and "help the afghanis as much as they can".

as for not hurting civilians, that's complete bs, as evidence after evidence show that's not the case. Sure, not all are willing to kill civilians if they didn't have to, but certainly a lot more than just 1% are always ready to press the button to annihilate civilians if they think those civilians look suspicious enough. After all, who they value more, their own lives or afghanis?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Lynx]

I vote life in prison in case there is no afterlife.

[Fivesolas]

The men should be tried in a court of law and punished. I do agree that the death penalty should be given out.

[titus]

Death penalty sounds good to me. These guys are sick.

The soldiers are in Afghanistan (or Iraq) because they have to/ordered to. Give them the option between "let's stay to help out the afghanis" or "let's get out of here", and let's see how many actually choose to stay and "help the afghanis as much as they can".

You might be surprised how many would stay to help. I am positive, though, most don't want people trying to kill them while they are trying to help. I am also pretty positive that most of those trying to kill them don't really have the welfare of the Afhani people as their top priority.

[LavaDog]

as for not hurting civilians, that's complete bs, as evidence after evidence show that's not the case. Sure, not all are willing to kill civilians if they didn't have to, but certainly a lot more than just 1% are always ready to press the button to annihilate civilians if they think those civilians look suspicious enough. After all, who they value more, their own lives or afghanis?

I realize that people have killed civilians but these guys were actually targeting civilians. You would be suprised how much people look after the civilians. A lot of people including myself spent a lot of our pay buying medical supplies for the people and candy and toys for the children.

[Ramadhan]

I am also pretty positive that most of those trying to kill them don't really have the welfare of the Afhani people as their top priority.

I knew that I could always trust you to spin yet another news of sick civilians killings by american soldiers into how afghani independent fighters don't have the welfare of their own people as their top priority.

How deep is your hatred towards muslims, really?

[Ramadhan]

So, how many barbaric civilians killings like this one that have actually been happening in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade?
Even with US government, military, intelligence iron fist cover ups, we keep getting evidence that these things are happening.

Praise be to Allah that makes me muslim and belief in the day of judgement, so despite all those horrible things happening to my brothers and sisters, I know that punishments for those evil incarnates will be very severe.
May Allah SWT make jannah the abode for all the victims of american invasions to Iraq and Afghanistan. Amiin.

[titus]

I knew that I could always trust you to spin yet another news of sick civilians killings by american soldiers into how afghani independent fighters don't have the welfare of their own people as their top priority.

How deep is your hatred towards muslims, really?

Are you equating disapproving of the Taliban with hating Muslims? That's just ridiculous.

[MartyrX]

This is disgusting.

[aadil77]

Nothing new here, just shows who the real 'terrorists' are

[Trumble]

The men should be tried in a court of law and punished. I do agree that the death penalty should be given out.

So would I if I were not opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. This atrocity is right up there with My Lai, and let's all hope something rather closer to real justice comes to the perpetrators in this instance.

That said, before declaring who the 'real terrorists' are;

SOURCE

Not a pleasant sight for Tali-fans, I'm afraid. And they don't even have some of the same 'collateral damage' excuses; these deaths were deliberate, close up and personal.

As for

I knew that I could always trust you to spin yet another news of sick civilians killings by american soldiers into how afghani independent fighters don't have the welfare of their own people as their top priority.

I think the above shows how much priority 'afghani independent fighters' really give 'the welfare of their own people'. What a joke.

[muslimfirst]

Allah already informed us that
---------------
005.051 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى أَوْلِيَاءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.



Al-Qur'an, 005.051 (Surah Al-Maeda)





005.052 فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ يُسَارِعُونَ فِيهِمْ يَقُولُونَ نَخْشَى أَنْ تُصِيبَنَا دَائِرَةٌ فَعَسَى اللَّهُ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِالْفَتْحِ أَوْ أَمْرٍ مِنْ عِنْدِهِ فَيُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا أَسَرُّوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ نَادِمِينَ

005.052 Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.



Al-Qur'an, 005.052 (Surah Al-Maeda)

[Ramadhan]

These verses fit the actions of the invading American armies in Afghhanistan and Iraq:

When it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the Earth," they say: "Why? We only want to make peace." Beware, they are the ones that cause mischief but they do not realise. [Soorah al-Baqarah (2):11-12]

There is a type of man whose speech about the life of this world will dazzle you and he calls Allaah to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the most contentious of enemies. Whenever he holds the upperhand, his aim is to spread mischief everywhere through the earth and to destroy crops and cattle. But Allaah does not love mischief. [Soorah al-Baqarah (2):204-205]

[MustafaMc]

That said, before declaring who the 'real terrorists' are;

Not a pleasant sight for Tali-fans, I'm afraid. And they don't even have some of the same 'collateral damage' excuses; these deaths were deliberate, close up and personal.

As for ...

I think the above shows how much priority 'afghani independent fighters' really give 'the welfare of their own people'. What a joke.

"Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point. (Wikipedia)

[Trumble]

"Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point. (Wikipedia)

Totally agree. :rolleyes:

[MustafaMc]

Yes, it goes both was. A phrase comes to mind, "Dazzle them them brilliance or baffle them with B.S."

[Verdetequiero]

Hopefully they are hung from a tall pole with a short rope.

[Verdetequiero]

if found guilty of course.

[Ramadhan]

if found guilty of course.

Yeah sure....

[Verdetequiero]

Yeah sure....

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.

[Amira_Zelda]

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.

one word: QUE ?

lol seriously i did not understand your analogy :P

[Verdetequiero]

It's a quote from Groucho Marx the comedian

Military music tends to be very monotonous, and boring and is by most musicians ( other than military bands) no not really even be " real "music. Same thing with military justice; its not really justice.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Kill teams in Afghanistan: the truth

These disgusting photos of murdered Afghans reveal the aggression and racism underpinning the occupation of my country


By Malalai Joya

The disgusting and heartbreaking photos published last week in the German media, and more recently in Rolling Stone magazine, are finally bringing the grisly truth about the war in Afghanistan to a wider public. All the PR about this war being about democracy and human rights melts into thin air with the pictures of US soldiers posing with the dead and mutilated bodies of innocent Afghan civilians.

I must report that Afghans do not believe this to be a story of a few rogue soldiers. We believe that the brutal actions of these "kill teams" reveal the aggression and racism which is part and parcel of the entire military occupation. While these photos are new, the murder of innocents is not. Such crimes have sparked many protests in Afghanistan and have sharply raised anti-American sentiment among ordinary Afghans.

I am not surprised that the mainstream media in the US has been reluctant to publish these images of the soldiers who made sport out of murdering Afghans. General Petraeus, now in charge of the American-led occupation, is said to place great importance on the "information war" for public opinion – and there is a concerted effort to keep the reality of Afghanistan out of sight in the US.

Last week my initial application for a US entry visa was turned down, and so my book tour was delayed while supporters demanded my right to enter the country. The American government was pressed to relent and allow my visit to go ahead. Ultimately it too will be unable to block out the truth about the war in Afghanistan.

The "kill team" images will come as a shock to many outside Afghanistan but not to us. We have seen countless incidents of American and Nato forces killing innocent people like birds. For instance, they recently killed nine children in Kunar Province who were collecting firewood. In February this year they killed 65 innocent villagers, most of them women and children. In this case, as in many others, Nato claimed that they had only killed insurgents, even though local authorities acknowledged that the victims were civilians. To prevent the facts coming out they even arrested two journalists from al-Jazeera who attempted to visit and report from the site of the massacre.

Successive US officials have said that they will safeguard civilians and that they will be more careful, but in fact they are only more careful in their efforts to cover up their crimes and suppress reporting of them. The US and Nato, along with the office of the UN's assistance mission in Afghanistan, usually give statistics about civilian deaths that underestimate the numbers. The reality is that President Obama's so-called surge has only led to a surge of violence from all sides, and civilian deaths have increased.

The occupying armies have tried to buy off the families of their victims, offering $2,000 for each one killed. Afghans' lives are cheap for the US and Nato, but no matter how much they offer, we don't want their blood money.

rest here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...afghanistan-us

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam

..I do want to point out that 99 percent of the guys over there are trying to help as much as they can and would never hurt civilians.

how do u know ?

[Tyrion]

how do u know ?

I don't know if he literally meant 99%, but the point is that not all of them are terrible human beings... I'm not really for any of the wars the US is involved in, but I wouldn't paint all of our soldiers with the same brush...

[GuestFellow]

Salaam

how do u know ?

Salaam,

Not all soldiers are the same. Some joined the army because they wanted to help their country but did not realise they were being misled. I'm certain there are soldiers that truly regret what they have done. Other soldiers wanted revenge after 9/11. There are mercenaries hired by the US government like Blackwater and are protected against criminal prosecution.

So it is a lot more complicated and generalising does not give an accurate picture.

[aadil77]

Salaam

Kill teams in Afghanistan: the truth

These disgusting photos of murdered Afghans reveal the aggression and racism underpinning the occupation of my country


By Malalai Joya

The disgusting and heartbreaking photos published last week in the German media, and more recently in Rolling Stone magazine, are finally bringing the grisly truth about the war in Afghanistan to a wider public. All the PR about this war being about democracy and human rights melts into thin air with the pictures of US soldiers posing with the dead and mutilated bodies of innocent Afghan civilians.

I must report that Afghans do not believe this to be a story of a few rogue soldiers. We believe that the brutal actions of these "kill teams" reveal the aggression and racism which is part and parcel of the entire military occupation. While these photos are new, the murder of innocents is not. Such crimes have sparked many protests in Afghanistan and have sharply raised anti-American sentiment among ordinary Afghans.

I am not surprised that the mainstream media in the US has been reluctant to publish these images of the soldiers who made sport out of murdering Afghans. General Petraeus, now in charge of the American-led occupation, is said to place great importance on the "information war" for public opinion – and there is a concerted effort to keep the reality of Afghanistan out of sight in the US.

Last week my initial application for a US entry visa was turned down, and so my book tour was delayed while supporters demanded my right to enter the country. The American government was pressed to relent and allow my visit to go ahead. Ultimately it too will be unable to block out the truth about the war in Afghanistan.

The "kill team" images will come as a shock to many outside Afghanistan but not to us. We have seen countless incidents of American and Nato forces killing innocent people like birds. For instance, they recently killed nine children in Kunar Province who were collecting firewood. In February this year they killed 65 innocent villagers, most of them women and children. In this case, as in many others, Nato claimed that they had only killed insurgents, even though local authorities acknowledged that the victims were civilians. To prevent the facts coming out they even arrested two journalists from al-Jazeera who attempted to visit and report from the site of the massacre.

Successive US officials have said that they will safeguard civilians and that they will be more careful, but in fact they are only more careful in their efforts to cover up their crimes and suppress reporting of them. The US and Nato, along with the office of the UN's assistance mission in Afghanistan, usually give statistics about civilian deaths that underestimate the numbers. The reality is that President Obama's so-called surge has only led to a surge of violence from all sides, and civilian deaths have increased.

The occupying armies have tried to buy off the families of their victims, offering $2,000 for each one killed. Afghans' lives are cheap for the US and Nato, but no matter how much they offer, we don't want their blood money.

rest here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...afghanistan-us

Not a pleasant sight for NATO fans and sellouts/traitors, I'd like to see anyone try and show me those false statistics from NATO or the UN again

This verse is for the traitors and sellouts who will believe anything coming from the warmongers themselves:

O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done 49:6

[Dagless]

Really shocking news :( I hope they experience the same pain they inflicted on others.

That said, before declaring who the 'real terrorists' are;

SOURCE

Not a pleasant sight for Tali-fans, I'm afraid. And they don't even have some of the same 'collateral damage' excuses; these deaths were deliberate, close up and personal.

As for



I think the above shows how much priority 'afghani independent fighters' really give 'the welfare of their own people'. What a joke.

What exactly does this show? Invade a country, remove the government, kill as many people are you want. Obviously destabilizing the entire region had nothing to do with it! It's those violent Afghans again. It must be nice in your world Trumble.

edit: read the whole study on the site and edited accordingly.

[Tyrion]

It's those violent Afghans again.

I just wanted to say something on this... Even for those of you who, for some reason, support the Taliban... You should keep in mind that they alone do not represent the Afghan people as a whole. I've even heard some people refer to them as 'freedom fighters'... But Afghanistan doesn't just have one group of freedom fighters... Many of the real freedom fighters that fought against the soviets and other invasions were NOT Taliban, and from what I know, they are still not Taliban and remain opposed to them... I'm shaky on my Afghan history, but I'm pretty sure this is the case in most accounts.

I'm basically just trying to say that things aren't super black and white. There are many groups in Afghanistan who would like power.. It's been that way for a while. But the bottom line is, we're not there and even the most educated of us doesn't really know the situation. It's best to avoid taking the side of a group you know nothing about.

But yeah, continue the discussion. Just wanted tot get that out there.


EDIT: Also, to the mods in general... Could you please not delete every response that makes you slightly uncomfortable? I just noticed that a post I made earlier in this thread has been removed.

[Dagless]

I just wanted to say something on this... Even for those of you who, for some reason, support the Taliban... You should keep in mind that they alone do not represent the Afghan people as a whole. I've even heard some people refer to them as 'freedom fighters'... But Afghanistan doesn't just have one group of freedom fighters... Many of the real freedom fighters that fought against the soviets and other invasions were NOT Taliban, and from what I know, they are still not Taliban and remain opposed to them... I'm shaky on my Afghan history, but I'm pretty sure this is the case in most accounts.

I'm basically just trying to say that things aren't super black and white. There are many groups in Afghanistan who would like power.. It's been that way for a while. But the bottom line is, we're not there and even the most educated of us doesn't really know the situation. It's best to avoid taking the side of a group you know nothing about.

But yeah, continue the discussion. Just wanted tot get that out there.


EDIT: Also, to the mods in general... Could you please not delete every response that makes you slightly uncomfortable? I just noticed that a post I made earlier in this thread has been removed.

I did not use the word 'taliban', and I did not take the side of any group. I do, however, disagree with some of what you've said, but that's for another thread.

[GuestFellow]

^ I agree that there are several groups in Afghanistan and have different motives. The US government has labeled them all Taliban which makes it difficult to find out what is going on.

[Tyrion]

I did not use the word 'taliban', and I did not take the side of any group. I do, however, disagree with some of what you've said, but that's for another thread.

My post wasn't really directed at just you though... I just used your post to get into a few point I thought would be relevant.

[Trumble]

What exactly does this show? Invade a country, remove the government, kill as many people are you want. Obviously destabilizing the entire region had nothing to do with it! It's those violent Afghans again. It must be nice in your world Trumble.

Your comprehension problems seem even more acute than usual. Actually it shows that in the first six months of 2010;

1,271 civilians were killed in conflict in Afghanistan. Of those, 920 were killed by anti-government forces (i.e. Taliban), 223 by pro-government forces (i.e. Afghan government and US/Allied troops), those resposnsible for the balance being undetermined.

3,268 civilians were either killed or wounded. Of those, anti-government forces were responsible for 2,447, pro-government forces for 386, the balance being undetermined.

Of the civilian deaths caused by the Taliban, 183 were the result of suicide bombers, 183 by execution or assassination, 374 by IEDs and the rest by other means.

If you and others here prefer to just stick your proverbial fingers in your ears and sing 'la la la', or mutter about 'false statistics' and 'sellouts and traitors' so be it. One simple fact is that the Taliban are actually responsible for three times as many civilian deaths as Afghan government and Allied forces. That's THREE TIMES AS MANY. Get over it. The other equally simple fact is if that the Americans left tomorrow, the civil war would go on and yet more civilians would die. But if the Taliban laid down their weapons and chose to pursue their cause by political means the war would be over the same day. But they know the 'sellouts and traitors' are, in fact, the majority of Afghan citizens WHO DO NOT WANT THEM, so perpetuating the war is the only chance they have of grabbing the power they crave.

[Dagless]

Your comprehension problems seem even more acute than usual. Actually it shows that in the first six months of 2010;

1,271 civilians were killed in conflict in Afghanistan. Of those, 920 were killed by anti-government forces (i.e. Taliban), 223 by pro-government forces (i.e. Afghan government and US/Allied troops), those resposnsible for the balance being undetermined.

3,268 civilians were either killed or wounded. Of those, anti-government forces were responsible for 2,447, pro-government forces for 386, the balance being undetermined.

Of the civilian deaths caused by the Taliban, 183 were the result of suicide bombers, 183 by execution or assassination, 374 by IEDs and the rest by other means.

If you and others here prefer to just stick your proverbial fingers in your ears and sing 'la la la', or mutter about 'false statistics' and 'sellouts and traitors' so be it. One simple fact is that the Taliban are actually responsible for three times as many civilian deaths as Afghan government and Allied forces. That's THREE TIMES AS MANY. Get over it. The other equally simple fact is if that the Americans left tomorrow, the civil war would go on and yet more civilians would die. But if the Taliban laid down their weapons and chose to pursue their cause by political means the war would be over the same day. But they know the 'sellouts and traitors' are, in fact, the majority of Afghan citizens WHO DO NOT WANT THEM, so perpetuating the war is the only chance they have of grabbing the power they crave.

Did you read what I wrote? Stating the numbers again doesn't make your argument stronger (or should I say weaker). Yes if the everyone left tomorrow more civilians would die, but don't you think that may have something to do with the 9 previous years of killing people, abusing a country, and destabilizing a region? Which was actually exactly what I wrote before (comprehension problems?). Go kick a wasps nest and then do a pretty little graph about the violent tendencies of wasps.

[GuestFellow]

Okay, lets all remain calm. :skeleton:

Your comprehension problems seem even more acute than usual. Actually it shows that in the first six months of 2010;

1,271 civilians were killed in conflict in Afghanistan. Of those, 920 were killed by anti-government forces (i.e. Taliban), 223 by pro-government forces (i.e. Afghan government and US/Allied troops), those resposnsible for the balance being undetermined.

3,268 civilians were either killed or wounded. Of those, anti-government forces were responsible for 2,447, pro-government forces for 386, the balance being undetermined.

Of the civilian deaths caused by the Taliban, 183 were the result of suicide bombers, 183 by execution or assassination, 374 by IEDs and the rest by other means.

If you and others here prefer to just stick your proverbial fingers in your ears and sing 'la la la', or mutter about 'false statistics' and 'sellouts and traitors' so be it. One simple fact is that the Taliban are actually responsible for three times as many civilian deaths as Afghan government and Allied forces. That's THREE TIMES AS MANY. Get over it. The other equally simple fact is if that the Americans left tomorrow, the civil war would go on and yet more civilians would die.

Trumble, your statistics are interesting but I would not completely rely on a set of statistics from one source. the term "anti-government elements" is a bit vague. It does not specify that the Taliban are responsible for all of the deaths. There might be a strong possibility that the US has not revealed all the civilians that have been killed by the military either.

But if the Taliban laid down their weapons and chose to pursue their cause by political means the war would be over the same day. But they know the 'sellouts and traitors' are, in fact, the majority of Afghan citizens WHO DO NOT WANT THEM, so perpetuating the war is the only chance they have of grabbing the power they crave.

Actually the Taliban have offered negotiations to hand over Osama but George Bush ignored this. :p:

Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden

I highly doubt you speak for all Afghan citizens...none of us do because it is impossible.

[Trumble]

<--- Remaining calm. Thx Guestfellow.

Did you read what I wrote? Stating the numbers again doesn't make your argument stronger (or should I say weaker). Yes if the everyone left tomorrow more civilians would die, but don't you think that may have something to do with the 9 previous years of killing people, abusing a country, and destabilizing a region(*)? Which was actually exactly what I wrote before (comprehension problems?). Go kick a wasps nest and then do a pretty little graph about the violent tendencies of wasps.

Yes, I read it. Of course I agree that if there were no war, there would be no civilian casualties in it, regardless of who was or wasn't responsible for starting it. I do not agree that "9 previous years of killing people, abusing a country, and destabilizing a region" provides any explanation as to why the Taliban are killing three times as many civilians as government and NATO forces. The only explanation you seem to be offering with your analogy is that, somehow, this is the result of the Taliban getting upset and hence rushing around randomly killing civilians as a consequence of induced 'violent tendencies'??? Perhaps the Afghan government should stop recruiting soldiers and maybe recruit psychiatrists and counsellors to parachute into Taliban held areas instead?!

[GuestFellow]

If the statistics present an accurate picture, than the anti-government elements are not truly helping the civilians, whatever their intentions are. You do not kill people in the process to help them. Both sides are just as bad to use indiscriminate attacks.

[Zuzubu]

It's terrible, that's the exact reason why I like the taliban's rule more than the war.