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Hannah.
03-24-2011, 04:37 PM
A British man came to Sheikh and asked, "Why is it not permissible in Islam for women to shake hands with a man?" The Sheikh said, "Can you shake hands with Queen Elizabeth?" British man replied, "Of course not, there are only certain people who can shake hands with Queen Elizabeth". Sheikh replied with a smile on his face, "Our Women are Queens and Queens do not shake hands with strange men".
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Ansariyah
03-24-2011, 08:23 PM
My kinda Sheikh!!
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Thinker
03-25-2011, 03:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hannah.
A British man came to Sheikh and asked, "Why is it not permissible in Islam for women to shake hands with a man?" The Sheikh said, "Can you shake hands with Queen Elizabeth?" British man replied, "Of course not, there are only certain people who can shake hands with Queen Elizabeth". Sheikh replied with a smile on his face, "Our Women are Queens and Queens do not shake hands with strange men".
What a load of childish nonsence, Muslim women aren't Queens. Queens are either married to Kings or are the heir to a throne i.e. owners of a country and rulers of it's people. To say all Muslim women are Queens is simply nonsense. If he was suggesting the Muslims women should be treated like a Quen that poses the question - why, what have they done to deserve such homage. And with regards to shaking hands that would mean all the Muslim women treated like Queens woudl be able to shake hands with any member of the aristocracy - again nonsense.
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ardianto
03-25-2011, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
And with regards to shaking hands that would mean all the Muslim women treated like Queens woudl be able to shake hands with any member of the aristocracy - again nonsense.
Of course this queen can shakes hand with members of aristocracy, such as her husband, her kids, her parents, and other aristocrat in her kingdom that called "mahram". :D
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-25-2011, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
What a load of childish nonsence, Muslim women aren't Queens. Queens are either married to Kings or are the heir to a throne i.e. owners of a country and rulers of it's people. To say all Muslim women are Queens is simply nonsense. If he was suggesting the Muslims women should be treated like a Quen that poses the question - And with regards to shaking hands that would mean all the Muslim women treated like Queens woudl be able to shake hands with any member of the aristocracy - again nonsense.
Define Queen? A queen is respected, honoured and certainly given rights. She meets who she has the right to meet.

Muslim women obey their creator, worship him etc because they do this they know the one who created them knows better.

King and Queen as in ruler of their household, its quite obvious that all muslim women in the world arent married to kings and rule over some land or country etc.
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Hannah.
03-25-2011, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
What a load of childish nonsence, Muslim women aren't Queens. Queens are either married to Kings or are the heir to a throne i.e. owners of a country and rulers of it's people. To say all Muslim women are Queens is simply nonsense. If he was suggesting the Muslims women should be treated like a Quen that poses the question - why, what have they done to deserve such homage. And with regards to shaking hands that would mean all the Muslim women treated like Queens woudl be able to shake hands with any member of the aristocracy - again nonsense.
I don't think you're seeing the bigger picture here - In Islam, women are valued as queens. They are to be respected and honored at the highest levels.
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Ansariyah
03-25-2011, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
What a load of childish nonsence, Muslim women aren't Queens. Queens are either married to Kings or are the heir to a throne i.e. owners of a country and rulers of it's people. To say all Muslim women are Queens is simply nonsense. If he was suggesting the Muslims women should be treated like a Quen that poses the question - why, what have they done to deserve such homage. And with regards to shaking hands that would mean all the Muslim women treated like Queens woudl be able to shake hands with any member of the aristocracy - again nonsense.
You are just Jealoussss!
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Thinker
03-25-2011, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hannah.
I don't think you're seeing the bigger picture here - In Islam, women are valued as queens. They are to be respected and honored at the highest levels.
Women or men regardless of gender deserve courtesy and respect. Some women and men e.g. kings and queens are by custom given a greater degree of respect not because of their gender but because of their position. This thread is about man and women shaking hands and the analogy given by the OP of Islam not allowing it because Muslim women are treated as queens is childish explanation at best and ridiculous explanation at worst.
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Thinker
03-25-2011, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanoorah


You are just Jealoussss!
You're funny :statisfie
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-25-2011, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Women or men regardless of gender deserve courtesy and respect. Some women and men e.g. kings and queens are by custom given a greater degree of respect not because of their gender but because of their position. This thread is about man and women shaking hands and the analogy given by the OP of Islam not allowing it because Muslim women are treated as queens is childish explanation at best and ridiculous explanation at worst.
I agree, no matter what gender they are, they deserve respect and courtesy and that is exactly what Islaam gives us and the way Islaam teaches us to follow. As you mentioned king and Queen are given respect due to their position, Islaam allready gives us that position due to the rights given to us. The truth is that women in Islaam are to be treated like Queens, the Prophet Muhammad (may the blessings of the Allmighty be unto him) already taught us the best man is the who is best to his wife. And this doesnt mean the man/husband is treated any different by his wife either. The man and women have their rights.
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Hannah.
03-25-2011, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
This thread is about man and women shaking hands and the analogy given by the OP of Islam not allowing it because Muslim women are treated as queens is childish explanation at best and ridiculous explanation at worst.
There are many reasons why Islam forbids shaking hands between a woman and a non-mahrem. Its not just
about women being treated as queens.. this was just a beautiful saying I wanted to share.
There is no need to be so skeptic bro.
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Dagless
03-25-2011, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Women or men regardless of gender deserve courtesy and respect. Some women and men e.g. kings and queens are by custom given a greater degree of respect not because of their gender but because of their position. This thread is about man and women shaking hands and the analogy given by the OP of Islam not allowing it because Muslim women are treated as queens is childish explanation at best and ridiculous explanation at worst.
You've just said that you do not shake the Queen's hand because of a greater degree of respect. The point here is respect. The Sheikh is saying that we respect our women like queens and so do not shake their hands. Whether accurate or light hearted, it's certainly a good analogy and one I think even a child could grasp... yet somehow you've managed to completely miss the point.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-26-2011, 09:40 AM
What a load of childish nonsence, Muslim women aren't Queens.
as if we're not ^o)
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elina
03-26-2011, 10:30 AM
even before i reverted i always avoided shaking hands with men for lots of reasons..... firstly hygiene.... how do i know the man has clean hands? secondly ive always felt touching of hands a really intimate thing to do...... thirdly ive always had a big personal space around me and hate anyone i dont know well coming into that space.....there is absolutely no reason at all to shake hands with a man, a simple hello should be sufficient. I have had people look at me like im ignorant, stupid or impolite when i have said sorry i dont shake hands...... since i reverted and refuse to shake hands i just get the 'ah course, shes muslim' look :rollseyes:


sorry im rubbish at the quoting thing on here.... think it was ardianto that said ' Of course this queen can shakes hand with members of aristocracy, such as her husband, her kids, her parents, and other aristocrat in her kingdom that called "mahram". :D ' my feelings are likewise :)
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MustafaMc
03-26-2011, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hannah.
There are many reasons why Islam forbids shaking hands between a woman and a non-mahrem. Its not just
about women being treated as queens.. this was just a beautiful saying I wanted to share.
There is no need to be so skeptic bro.
You are right, respected ukhti, and I agree that it was a beautiful analogy. There are many greeting customs from around the world that most people not from that culture would feel uncomfortable with, such as:

rubbing noses or “Eskimo Kiss” by Intuits and other Native Americans
kissing one‘s cheek - in Europe, Latin America, and the Caribbean
women give two kisses to both men and women - in Argentina
full-body greeting called the abrazo - across South America

It seems that people in the West have trouble accepting that Muslims don't want to have physical contact with people of different gender even in the form of shaking hands. I can't tell you how many times a woman has extended her hand to me in greeting. I respond by putting my hand over my heart and saying, "I am sorry, but I don't shake on account of my religion."
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Thinker
03-29-2011, 07:06 PM
There are many forms of greetings in different cultures and if rubbing noses is something that you don’t want to do you might want to avoid living amongst Eskimos. In the UK the cultural norm for greetings is an outstretched hand. The culture dictates that offering another person your hand is a sign of respect (you would not, for example, offer your hand to someone with whom you were at odds or whom you disrespected) and similarly it is a sign of disrespect to refuse an outstretched hand offered. Living in a country which has a culture allowing many freedoms including being allowed to disrespect its culture gives you the right to do whatever you like but know this – refuse that hand and that same culture will avoid embarrassing confrontation and will simply smile and walk away but THEY WILL hold a grudge - that is British culture.
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Thinker
03-29-2011, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hannah.
There are many reasons why Islam forbids shaking hands between a woman and a non-mahrem. Its not just
about women being treated as queens.. this was just a beautiful saying I wanted to share.
There is no need to be so skeptic bro.
No there isn't, there's nothing in the Qu'ran or the hadith that prohibits hand shakes. Hand shakes as a form of greeting was not the custom in 6th century Arabia. The restriction on handshakes is something brought in my men long after Muhammad's death.
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Hannah.
03-29-2011, 08:54 PM
We're not talking about culture here, we're talking about Islam. Shaking hands (and touching) members of the opposite sex
when not related, is not permissable for Muslims according to the teachings of Islam.

There are many hadiths that provide evidence that this act is not allowed:
The prophet, peace be upon him said, "It is better for you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle than to touch the hand of a woman who is to permissible to you."
[At-Tabarani in "Al Kabir, #486. Shaikh Albani said in Sahih al-Jaami' it is sahih #5045]

Umaymah bint Raqeeqah said: 'The prophet, peace be upon him, said, "I do not shake hands with women (not permissible to touch)."
[An-Nasaai, #4181 and Ibn Majah, #2874; Albani declared it sahih; Al Jami, #2513]

Ibn Nujaym said: 'It is not permissible for a man to touch a woman's face or hands even when there's no risk of desire because it is haraam in principle and there is no necessity to allow it.'
[Al-Bahr al-Raa'iq, 8/219]

Muhammad ibn Ahmad ('Ulaysh) said: 'It's not permissible for a man to touch the face or hand of a non-mahram woman (not related), and it is not permissilbe for him to his hand on hers without a barrier. Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: 'The prophet, peace be upon him, never accepted a woman's oath of allegiance by shaking hands with her; instead he would accept their oath of alleginace in words alone.'

According to another report: 'His hand never touched the hand of a woman, instead he would accept their oath of allegiance with words alone.'
[Manh Al-Jaleel Sharh Mukhtasar Khaleel, 1/223]


And many more.
Brother, please do your homework before making things up. :)
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-29-2011, 09:04 PM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No there isn't, there's nothing in the Qu'ran or the hadith that prohibits hand shakes. Hand shakes as a form of greeting was not the custom in 6th century Arabia. The restriction on handshakes is something brought in my men long after Muhammad's death.
You are incorrect here

It was narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yassaar said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “For one of you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle is better for him than that he should touch a woman who is not permissible for him.”
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-29-2011, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Living in a country which has a culture allowing many freedoms including being allowed to disrespect its culture gives you the right to do whatever you like but know this – refuse that hand and that same culture will avoid embarrassing confrontation and will simply smile and walk away but THEY WILL hold a grudge - that is British culture.
It is not disrespectful if one doesnt will to shake hands if the other is a stranger man to the individual. For example it may seem disrespectful if a man ignores hand shake with another man, or women with another women. But a women who is stranger to another man, has full right to not shake hands, and vice versa. As muslims we are aware, if Allaah commands us to do something even we dont know why, we follow it believing in him tottally, trusting in him and having no sense of doubt.

.. peace ..
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Thinker
03-29-2011, 09:11 PM
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.

And please don’t give me that who are you sheikh, I am an intelligent human being whose intelligence isn’t clouded by bias.
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Cabdullahi
03-29-2011, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by elina
even before i reverted i always avoided shaking hands with men for lots of reasons..... firstly hygiene.... how do i know the man has clean hands?
Exactly man!....his hands could contain traces of chocolate doodoo or green jelly
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-29-2011, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.

And please don’t give me that who are you sheikh, I am an intelligent human being whose intelligence isn’t clouded by bias.
Even the most intelligent people arent aware of Islaam, they dont accept many teachings of Islaam, and there are intelligent humans who are muslims.

Could you provide me the source to what you have said : " In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex."

Intelligent or not, evidence is definetly required.
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Aprender
03-30-2011, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.

And please don’t give me that who are you sheikh, I am an intelligent human being whose intelligence isn’t clouded by bias.
I'm asking for your sincere answer to this question.

Are you serious?
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Hamza Asadullah
03-30-2011, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.

And please don’t give me that who are you sheikh, I am an intelligent human being whose intelligence isn’t clouded by bias.
Please "think" and "research" on a particular Islamic matter before you post. You claim you are not biased but the majority of your posts conclude that you are nothing but bias and that most of your research is from anti Islamic websites.

It is also clear from your posts that you are not here to learn about Islam or the correct position on a particular Islamic matter but that you are here to defame Islam and attribute false lies to it.

You are more than welcome here if you are here to genuinly learn or discuss Islamic matters but not if you are here as a troll. Your chances are running out - just a friendly warning.
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TrueStranger
03-30-2011, 02:48 AM
Shaking hands with a non-Mahram: Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi


Is it proven in the Glorious Qur’an or the Sunnah that shaking hands with women is totally prohibited within the social and family relations when there is trust and no fear of temptation?

The Answer:

There is no doubt that shaking hands between males and females who are not mahrams (illegal for marriage) has become an intricate issue. Reaching an Islamic verdict on this issue away from extremism and dispensation needs a psychological, intellectual, and scientific effort so that the Mufti gets rid of the pressure of all imported and inherited customs unless they are based on the textual proofs of the Qur’an or the Sunnah.

Before tackling the issue in point, I would like to exclude two points on which I know there is agreement among the Muslim jurists of the righteous predecessors.

Firstly, it is prohibited to shake hands with a woman if there is fear of provoking sexual desire or enjoyment on the part of either one of them or if there is fear of temptation. This is based on the general rule that blocking the means to evil is obligatory, especially if its signs are clear. This ruling is ascertained in the light of what has been mentioned by Muslim jurists that a man touching one of his mahrams or having khalwah (privacy) with her moves to the prohibited, although it is originally permissible, if there is fear of fitnah (temptation) or provocation of desire.

Secondly, there is a dispensation in shaking hands with old women concerning whom there is no fear of desire. The same applies to the young girl concerning whom there is no fear of desire or temptation. The same ruling applies if the person is an old man concerning whom there is no fear of desire. This is based on what has been narrated on the authority of Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) that he used to shake hands with old women. Also, it is reported that `Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair hired an old woman to nurse him when he was sick, and she used to wink at him and pick lice from his head. This is also based on what has been mentioned in the Glorious Qur’an in respect of the old barren women, as they are given dispensation with regard to their outer garments. Almighty Allah says in this regard: “As for women past child bearing, who have no hope of marriage, it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment. But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.” (An-Nur: 60)

Allah explains that there is no sin on the old barren women if they decide to remove their outer garments from their faces and such, so long as they do not do it in a manner in which they would be exposing their beauty wrongly.

Here the object of discussion deals with other than these two cases. There is no surprise that shaking hands with women is haram (unlawful) according to the viewpoint of those who hold that covering all of the woman’s body, including her face and the two hands, is obligatory. This is because if it becomes obligatory to cover the two hands, then it would become haram for the opposite sex to look at them. And, if looking at them is unlawful, then touching them would become haram with greater reason because touching is graver than looking, as it provokes desire more.

But it is known that the proponents of this view are the minority, while the majority of Muslim jurists, including the Companions, the Successors and those who followed them, are of the opinion that the face and the hands are excluded from the prohibition. They based their opinion on Almighty Allah’s saying, “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent …” (An-Nur: 31) So where is the evidence on prohibiting handshaking unless there is desire?

In fact, I searched for a persuasive and textual proof supporting the prohibition but I did not find it. As a matter of fact, the most powerful evidence here is blocking the means to temptation, and this is no doubt acceptable when the desire is roused or there is fear of temptation because its signs exist. But when there is no fear of temptation or desire, what is the reason for prohibition?

Some scholars based their ruling on the action of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) on the day of the Conquest of Makkah. When he wanted to take the pledge of women he said to them, “Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.” But it is known that the Prophet’s leaving a matter does not necessarily indicate its prohibition, as he may leave it because it is haram (forbidden), makruh (reprehensible), or because it is not preferable. He may also leave it just because he is not inclined to it. An example of this last is the Prophet’s refraining from eating the meat of the lizard although it is permissible. Then, the Prophet’s refraining from shaking hands with women (other than his wives) is not evidence of the prohibition, and there should be other evidence to support the opinion of those who make shaking hands absolutely prohibited.

However, it is not agreed upon that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refrained from shaking hands with women to take their oath of allegiance. Umm `Atiyyah Al-Ansariyyah (may Allah be pleased with her) reported another narrative that indicates that the Prophet shook hands with women to take their oath of allegiance. This is unlike the narration of the Mother of the Believers `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) who denied this and swore that it had not happened.

It is narrated that `A’ishah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), said, “When the believing women migrated to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), they would be tested in accordance with the words of Allah, ‘O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.’ (Al-Mumtahanah: 12)” `A’ishah said, “Whoever among the believing women agreed to that passed the test, and when the women agreed to that, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said to them, ‘Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.’ No, by Allah, the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman, rather they would give their oath of allegiance with words only.” And `A’ishah said, “By Allah, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) only took the oath of allegiance from the women in the manner prescribed by Allah, and the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman. When he had taken their oath of allegiance he would say, ‘I have accepted your oath of allegiance verbally.’” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

In his explanation of the saying of `A’ishah, “No, by Allah, the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman …” Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar said: she swore to ascertain the news as if she (`A’ishah) wanted to refute the narration of Umm `Atiyyah. It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Hibban, Al-Bazzar, Al-Tabari, and Ibn Mardawih that Umm `Atiyyah said in respect of the story of taking the oath of allegiance of women, “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) held out his hand from outside the house and we (the immigrating women) held our hands from within the house, then he said, ‘O Allah, bear witness.’” In another narration reported by Al-Bukhari, Umm `Atiyyah said, “… thereupon a lady withdrew her hand (refrained from taking the oath of allegiance)…” This narration indicates that they (the immigrating women) took their oath of allegiance by shaking hands. Al-Hafizh said: we reply to the first saying that holding out hands from behind a veil is an indication of the acceptance of the allegiance even if there was no shaking of hands. As for the second narration, withdrawing hands indicates the postponement of accepting the pledge of allegiance or that taking the pledge of allegiance happened from behind a veil. This is supported by that narration of Abu Dawud on the authority of Al-Sha`bi that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to take the pledge of allegiance of the immigrating women he brought a garment and put it over his hands saying, “I do not shake hands with women.” Furthermore, in his book Maghazi, Ibn Is-haq is reported to have said that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to take the pledge of allegiance of the immigrating women, he would dip his hands in a vessel and a woman would dip her hands with him in the same vessel.

Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar said: it is possible that taking the pledge of allegiance happened on more than one occasion. Sometimes, it happened without touching hands by any means, as narrated by `A’ishah. Another time it happened that the women’s oath of allegiance was accepted by shaking their hands with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), as narrated by Al-Sha`bi. A third time it happened that they dipped their hands in the vessel as mentioned by Ibn Is-haq.

The most correct view seems to be that it occurred on more than one occasion, if we realize that `A’ishah talked about taking the pledge of allegiance from the immigrating women after the Truce of Al-Hudaibiyah, while Umm `Atiyyah talked about what seems to be the oath of allegiance of the believing women in general.

By transmitting these narrations, I mean to clarify that the evidence of those who are of the opinion that shaking hands with women is prohibited is not agreed upon, as is thought by those who do not resort to the original sources. Rather, there is some controversy concerning this evidence.

Furthermore, some contemporary Muslim scholars have based their ruling concerning the prohibition of shaking hands with women on the Hadith narrated by Al-Tabari and Al-Baihaqi on the authority of Ma`qil ibn Yassar that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “It would be better for one of you to have himself stabbed on the head with an iron needle than to touch a woman that is illegal for him.”

Here, the following should be noted:

1. The scholars and Imams of Hadith have not declared the authenticity of this Hadith. Some of them say that its narrators are trustworthy, but this is not enough to prove the authenticity of the Hadith because there is a probability that there is an interruption in the chain of narrators or there was a hidden cause behind this Hadith. That is why Muslim jurists in the periods that followed the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) have not based their ruling on the prohibition of shaking hands with women on this Hadith.

2. Some Hanafi and Maliki jurists stated that the prohibition is not proven unless there is a certain qat`i (definitive) piece of evidence such as textual proofs from the Glorious Qur’an or authentic Hadiths on which there is no suspicion regarding the chains of narrators.

3. If we suppose that the above-mentioned Hadith is authentic, it is unclear to me that the Hadith indicates that it is prohibited for males and females who are not mahrams to shake hands. That is because the phrase “touch a woman that is illegal for him” does not refer to the mere touching without desire as happens in normal handshaking. But the Arabic word “al-mass” (touching) as used in the Shar`i texts of the Qur’an and the Sunnah refers to one of two things:

1. Sexual intercourse, as reported by Ibn `Abbas in his commentary to Almighty Allah’s saying, ‘… or ye have touched women …’. He stated that “touching” in the Qur’an refers figuratively to sexual intercourse. This is clear in the following Qur’anic verses that read: “She (Mary) said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me?’” (Al `Imran: 47) and “If ye divorce them before ye have touched them …” (Al-Baqarah: 237)

2. Actions that precede sexual intercourse such as foreplay, kissing, hugging, caressing, and the like. This is reported from our righteous predecessors in the interpretation of the word “mulamasah”.

Al-Hakim stated in his Al-Mustadrak `Ala as-Sahihain: Al-Bukhari and Muslim have narrated many Hadiths that show that the meaning of the word “lams” (touching) refers to actions that precede sexual intercourse. Among them are:

a) The Hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “…The hands fornicate. Their fornication is the touch …”

b) The Hadith narrated by Ibn `Abbas that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You might caress her.”

c) The Hadith narrated by Muslim that Ibn Mas`ud is reported to have said that a person came to Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and told him that he had kissed a woman or touched her with his hand or did something like this. He inquired of him about its expiation. It was (on this occasion) that Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He, revealed this Qur’anic verse that reads “Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill deeds …” (Hud: 114)

d) `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said, “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit us (his wives) and it was his habit to kiss and caress us and do actions other than sexual intercourse until he reached the one whose turn was due and he stayed there.”

e) `Abdullah ibn Mas`ud is reported to have said in his commentary to Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …” that it refers to actions that precede sexual intercourse for which ablution is obligatory.

f) `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said, “Kissing is to be considered among the touching acts, so perform ablution if you do.” (Al-Mustadrak, vol. 1, p. 135)

Hence, the opinion of Imam Malik and the substantial meaning of the legal verdict issued by Imam Ahmad in this respect are that the touching of a woman that nullifies ablution is that which is accompanied by desire. And this is the way they interpreted Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …”

That is why Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah regarded as weak the opinion of those who interpreted “mulamasah” or (touching) in the Qur’anic verse to mean mere touching without desire. In this regard, he says, “As for the nullification of ablution with mere touching, it does agree with the original rulings of the Shari`ah, the unanimous agreement of the Companions and the traceable traditions reported in this respect. Moreover, those who held this opinion have not based their ruling on a textual proof or an analogical deduction.”

So, if “touching” in Almighty Allah’s saying “… or ye have touched women, …” refers to touching with hands, kissing or the like, as said by Ibn `Umar and others, then it is known that when “touching” is mentioned in the Qur’an or the Sunnah it refers to that which is accompanied by desire. We would like to cite here the following verse that reads, “… and touch them not, while ye are in retreat in the mosques …” Here, it is not prohibited for the one who retreats to the mosque for devotion and worship to touch his wife without desire, but touching that is accompanied by desire is prohibited.

Also, this includes the Qur’anic verses that read “O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon …” (Al-Ahzab: 49) “It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them …” (Al-Baqarah: 236) For if he (the husband) touches his wife without desire, then the waiting period is not required and he is not required to pay her the whole dowry, according to the agreement of all Muslim scholars.

So, whoever assumes that Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …” includes general touching without desire has exceeded far beyond the language of the Qur’an and that of people. For if “touching” in which a man and a woman are included is mentioned, it is known that it refers to touching with desire. Similarly, if “sexual intercourse” in which a man and a woman are included is mentioned, it is well known that it refers to actual sexual intercourse and nothing else. (See the collection of Fatawa Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah, vol. 21, pp. 223-224)

In another context, Ibn Taimiyah stated: The Companions had debate regarding Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …”. Ibn `Abbas, supported by a group, held the opinion that touching here refers to sexual intercourse and added: Allah is modest and generous. He euphemizes with what He wills in respect of what He wills. Ibn Taimiyah added: This opinion is believed to be the most correct.

The Arabs disagreed regarding the meaning of touching: does it refer to sexual intercourse or actions that precede it? The first group said that it refers to sexual intercourse, while the second said that it refers to actions that precede it. They sought the arbitration of Ibn `Abbas, who supported the opinion of the first group and regarded that of the second as incorrect.

By transmitting all these sayings, I mean to show that when the word “al-mass” or “al-lams” (touching) is used to mean what a man does to a woman, it does not refer to mere touching but rather refers to either sexual intercourse or actions that precede it such as kissing, hugging, and any touching of the like that is accompanied by desire and enjoyment.

However, if we investigate the sahih (sound) Hadiths that are narrated from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), we will conclude that the mere touching of hands between a man and a woman without desire or fear of temptation is not prohibited. Rather, it was done by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), whose actions are originally a source of legislation. Almighty Allah says: “Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example …” (Al-Ahzab: 21). It is narrated on the authority of Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said, “Any of the female slaves of Madinah could take hold of the hand of Allah’s Messenger and take him wherever she wished.” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

The above mentioned Hadith is a great sign of the modesty of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Furthermore, it is reported in the two Sahihs that Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit Umm Hiram bint Milhan, who would offer him meals. Umm Hiram was the wife of `Ubadah ibn As-Samit. Allah’s Messenger once visited her and she provided him with food and started looking for lice in his head. Then Allah’s Messenger slept putting his head in her lap, and afterwards woke up smiling. Umm Hiram asked, ‘What causes you to smile, O Allah’s Messenger?’ He said, ‘Some of my followers who (in a dream) were presented before me as fighters in Allah’s Cause (on board a ship) amidst this sea cause me to smile; they were as kings on thrones …’”

Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar has mentioned lessons that are deduced from this Hadith: The guest is permitted to nap in a house other than his own on condition that he is given permission and there is no fear of fitnah. According to this Hadith a woman is also permitted to serve the guest by offering him a meal, drink or the like. Furthermore, a woman is permitted to look for lice in his head, but this last was an object of controversy. Ibn `Abd Al-Barr said, “I think that Umm Hiram or her sister Umm Sulaim had breast-fed the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). So, each one of them had become his foster mother or his foster aunt. That was why he (the Prophet) used to sleep in her house and she used to deal with him as one of her mahrams.” Then he (Ibn `Abd Al-Barr) mentioned what indicates that Umm Hiram was one of the Prophet’s mahrams, as she was one of his relatives from his maternal aunts, since the mother of `Abd Al-Muttalib, his grandfather, was from Banu An-Najjar.

Others said that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was infallible and could control his sexual desires even from his wives, so what about other women who were illegal for him while he was granted infallibility from doing any wrong action or obscenity? This was one of his distinctive traits.

Al-Qadi `Iyad replied that the distinctive traits of the Prophet are not proven by personal interpretations of Hadiths. As for his infallibility, it is indisputable, but the original ruling is that it is permissible to take the Prophet’s actions as a model unless there is evidence that this action is one his distinctive traits.

Furthermore, Al-Hafizh Al-Dumyati said: It is wrong to claim that Umm Hiram was one of the maternal aunts of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) either by reason of marriage or fosterage. Those who breast-fed the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) are well known. None of them was from the Ansar except the mother of `Abd Al-Muttalib. She was Salma bint `Amr ibn Zaid ibn Lubaid ibn Khirash ibn `Amir ibn Ghunm ibn `Adyy ibn An-Najjar. While Umm Hiram is the daughter of Milhan ibn Khalid ibn Zaid ibn Judub ibn `Amir ibn Ghunm ibn `Adyy ibn An-Najjar. Umm Hiram has a common ancestor with Salma only in their grandfather `Amir ibn Ghunm. So, they are not among his mahrams because it is a metaphorical relationship. Al-Hafizh Al-Dumyati added: If this is proven, it is reported in the Sahih books of Hadith that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used not to enter any house in Madinah except the house of Umm Sulaim besides those of his wives. When he was asked why, he said, “I take pity on her, as her brother (Hiram ibn Milhan) was killed in my company.”

If this Hadith has excluded Umm Sulaim, then Umm Hiram is granted the same exclusion as her because they are sisters and resided in the same house; each one of them had her own apartment beside their brother Hiram ibn Milhan. So, the case is mutual between them, as reported by Al-Hafizh ibn Hajar.

Moreover, Umm Sulaim is the mother of Anas ibn Malik, the servant of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and it was the habit of people that the master mixed with his servant and his family and did not deal with them as outsiders.

Then, Al-Dumyati said: There is no indication in the Hadith showing that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had khulwa (privacy) with Umm Hiram, as this might have happened in the presence of a son, a servant, or a husband.

Ibn Hajar replied: This is a strong likelihood, but it does not refute the original argument represented in looking for lice in the head and sleeping in her lap.

Ibn Hajar added: The best reply is that it is one of the distinctive traits of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) (See Fath Al-Bari, vol. 13, pp. 230-231).

What I conclude from the aforementioned narrations is that the mere touching is not haram. So, if there exists reasons for mixing as that between the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Umm Hiram and Umm Sulaim and there is no fear of fitnah, then there is nothing wrong with shaking hands when there is a need for it, such as when returning from travel, the non-mahram male relative visiting his female relative, and vice versa, especially if this meeting happens after a long period.

Finally, I would like to ascertain two points:

Firstly, shaking hands between males and females who are not mahrams is only permissible when there is no desire or fear of fitnah. But if there is fear of fitnah, desire, or enjoyment, then handshaking is no doubt haram (unlawful). In contrast, if either of these two conditions (that there is no desire or fear of fitnah) is lacking between a male and any of his female mahrams, such as his aunt or foster sister or the like, then handshaking will be haram (although it is originally permissible).

Secondly, handshaking between males and females who are not mahrams should be restricted to necessary situations such as between relatives or those whose relationships are established by marriage. It is preferable not to expand the field of permissibility in order to block the means to evil and to be far away from doubt and to take the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as a model when there is no proof that he shook hands with a non-mahram woman. Also, it is preferable for the pious Muslim, male or female, not to stretch out his/her hand to shake the hand of anyone of the opposite sex who is not mahram. But if he/she is put in a situation that someone stretches out his/her hand to shake hands with him/her, then he/she can do that.

I have tried to clarify the detailed ruling of the issue here in order to inform those who are in the dark about it how to behave while sticking to the tenets of their religion. Also, when the detailed Islamic ruling is explained and people are fully aware of it, there will be no room for personal justifications that are not supported by legal backing.

Courtesy of IslamOnline.net
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Dagless
03-30-2011, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.

And please don’t give me that who are you sheikh, I am an intelligent human being whose intelligence isn’t clouded by bias.
You come out with these random statements in threads but never produce evidence. I've also found you to be a liar on occasion. I really think you're a troll.
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Ramadhan
03-30-2011, 08:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza81
You are more than welcome here if you are here to genuinly learn or discuss Islamic matters but not if you are here as a troll. Your chances are running out - just a friendly warning.
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
You come out with these random statements in threads but never produce evidence. I've also found you to be a liar on occasion. I really think you're a troll.

As much as I hate trolls, can we keep this one please? He does provide some entertainment value.

Here's how a thinker troll look like:


or

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Thinker
03-30-2011, 09:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
You come out with these random statements in threads but never produce evidence. I've also found you to be a liar on occasion. I really think you're a troll.
First - I have never lied, you talk about me not producing evidence, produce the evidence of my lie or retract the allegation.
Second I always produce evidence where I can but I can't, for example prove a negative e.g. God doesn't exist, I can only produce logical argument.
Third - This word Trol is thrown around in the preusmption that it is wrong or bad, I call it dialectics or socratian dialogue, a legitimate form of debate where one asserts a point of view and another argues against it, the aim being to fidn the truth.
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Thinker
03-30-2011, 09:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Shaking hands with a non-Mahram: Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi

What I conclude from the aforementioned narrations is that the mere touching is not haram. So, if there exists reasons for mixing as that between the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Umm Hiram and Umm Sulaim and there is no fear of fitnah, then there is nothing wrong with shaking hands when there is a need for it, such as when returning from travel, the non-mahram male relative visiting his female relative, and vice versa, especially if this meeting happens after a long period.
Great post

Other things I would add from someone viewing from the outside is that a lot of middle eastern culture has been weaved into Islam and centruries of men have searched for text to support their own cultural values AND there is an almost unhealthy obsession with sex, it seems to start with the presumption that every man wants to have sex with any woman any time, that men wouldn't be able to contain their lust if they saw any part of a woman (particularly head hair) and that women want to be taken. (Please note that the owrd taken here doesn't mean taken o the movies just like taking a womans hand doesn't mean cutting it off at the wrist).
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-30-2011, 09:49 AM
Other things I would add from someone viewing from the outside is that a lot of middle eastern culture has been weaved into Islam and centruries of men have searched for text to support their own cultural values
and you're doing what exactly?

and secondly, if you are so adamant on knowing what the quran says, etc etc why aren't you Muslim? i mean if you want to know what the quran says, surely you believe that the Quran is the truth, no?
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Dagless
03-30-2011, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
First - I have never lied, you talk about me not producing evidence, produce the evidence of my lie or retract the allegation.
You lied in this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...now-islam.html
Whether about the the contents of the program, or having watched the program in the first place, makes little difference.




format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Second I always produce evidence where I can but I can't, for example prove a negative e.g. God doesn't exist, I can only produce logical argument.
You said this:

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.
There is no negative to prove. Simply tell us what you've read and then provide the translation/explanation of it. If you're not an Arabic speaker please tell us which translation/explanation you read or how you translated it.




format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Third - This word Trol is thrown around in the preusmption that it is wrong or bad, I call it dialectics or socratian dialogue, a legitimate form of debate where one asserts a point of view and another argues against it, the aim being to fidn the truth.
You do not argue any points. To argue a point one must first understand it, then respond with evidence. You just blurt out random statements and then either contradict them yourself or avoid calls to back them up with evidence.
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Ramadhan
03-30-2011, 10:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Second I always produce evidence where I can but I can't, for example prove a negative e.g. God doesn't exist, I can only produce logical argument.
This is from the other thread where you accuse muslims of not complying with islam injunction to move to dar es salam, and when we pressed you for evidence where in the qur'an and sunnah such injuctions occur, you claimed otherwise.
You are a troll through and through.

Originally Posted by Thinker


God and Muhammad seemed to know where it was when they urged Muslims to migrate to the ‘earth of God.’



Originally Posted by Thinker


Before I research the question I can tell you that I know (or to be more exact - believe) that the term ‘dar al Islam’ was never used by Muhammad and does not appear in the Qur’an.





And then you made another accusation:

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Other things I would add from someone viewing from the outside is that a lot of middle eastern culture has been weaved into Islam and centruries of men have searched for text to support their own cultural values AND there is an almost unhealthy obsession with sex, it seems to start with the presumption that every man wants to have sex with any woman any time, that men wouldn't be able to contain their lust if they saw any part of a woman (particularly head hair) and that women want to be taken. (Please note that the owrd taken here doesn't mean taken o the movies just like taking a womans hand doesn't mean cutting it off at the wrist).
Back it up with qur'an and sunnah.
You and I know very well that hijab is an obligation set out not only in sunnah but also Qur'an.

Br. Hamza81, Can I retract my previous plea. I think this troll is becoming exceedingly boring.
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Thinker
03-30-2011, 11:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
You lied in this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...now-islam.html
Whether about the the contents of the program, or having watched the program in the first place, makes little difference.
I didn't lie about anything. Simply directing me tyo a thread I created about a TV programme doesn't show me what you believe was a lie.

On your other points you would do well to consider the possibility that not every issue can be debated to a conclusion by trading alternative verses of the Qur'an or hadith. There are agreed and accepted mathematical and philosphical forms of proof that don't need an Islamic scholar.
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Dagless
03-30-2011, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I didn't lie about anything. Simply directing me tyo a thread I created about a TV programme doesn't show me what you believe was a lie.
Oh dear, well ok here is the exact post: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1406381




format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
On your other points you would do well to consider the possibility that not every issue can be debated to a conclusion by trading alternative verses of the Qur'an or hadith. There are agreed and accepted mathematical and philosphical forms of proof that don't need an Islamic scholar.
Is the below quote mathematical? Is it philosophical? Is it unprovable?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You are taking the word 'hand' literally. The problem with you guys is that you will take one verse and apply the words literally and another verse and apply an ‘interpretation’ to it. In the text you have quoted hand doesn’t mean an actual hand it means sex.
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Thinker
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
and you're doing what exactly?
I am trying to understand my neighbours. I want to live in peace and harmony with them and I believe that if I understand their culture and they understand my culture we stand a better chance of achieving harmony. Like our Prime Minister, I believe multiculturalism is divisive and we should work towards a common culture.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
and secondly, if you are so adamant on knowing what the quran says, etc etc why aren't you Muslim? i mean if you want to know what the quran says, surely you believe that the Quran is the truth, no?
I, like many others, watch the TV news and see events and changes in the world and my own country. Question occurred to me and at a point in time, some years back, the question arose – what is Islam, could it be God’s message to mankind. As an agnostic I am open to the possibility and if the evidence is there I would be very happy to be persuaded that any religion was God’s will. I started my research (unlike most members of this forum) with a totally open mind. Fortunately or unfortunately I am a mathematician (retired) and have spent a life time applying the rigours of mathematical proofs to my investigation of anything. After a year or so, I had gathered sufficient information to be sure that Islam and the Qur’an is not the word of God and at that point I created thread on this forum stating my views simply for the purpose of being honest to those who had offered me some kindness because they believed I was a potential convert. I then left this forum. I returned and have returned several times since because a question has occurred to me or because I read a statement made which I would like to pursue (usually because I believe it is false). When I was a child you could count the number of Muslims in the whole of the UK on one hand. Since then we have opened the door to countless thousands of Muslims from foreign lands with foreign cultures offering them the security and comforts of our country (and I welcome them/you and the countless other refugees from other countries). I believe that if I invite someone into my house and give then food and shelter and offer them my hand in friendship and they refuse to take it I have the right to ask why and when I get an answer that is not credible I have the right to question that answer.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-30-2011, 12:48 PM
I am trying to understand my neighbours. I want to live in peace and harmony with them and I believe that if I understand their culture and they understand my culture we stand a better chance of achieving harmony. Like our Prime Minister, I believe multiculturalism is divisive and we should work towards a common culture.
but you only will understand them when they give up their faith? or modify it to suit people who dont seem to care about their faith but seem to be using it anyway to drive a point home? you dont believe that the Quran is the word of god then have the audacity to try prove your point that hand shaking with the opposite gender is permitted.

I, like many others, watch the TV news and see events and changes in the world and my own country. Question occurred to me and at a point in time, some years back, the question arose – what is Islam, could it be God’s message to mankind. As an agnostic I am open to the possibility and if the evidence is there I would be very happy to be persuaded that any religion was God’s will. I started my research (unlike most members of this forum) with a totally open mind.
so when did your mind become so closed :hmm:

Fortunately or unfortunately I am a mathematician (retired) and have spent a life time applying the rigours of mathematical proofs to my investigation of anything. After a year or so, I had gathered sufficient information to be sure that Islam and the Qur’an is not the word of God and at that point I created thread on this forum stating my views simply for the purpose of being honest to those who had offered me some kindness because they believed I was a potential convert.
you applied mathematics to figure out if Islam is true. that is as silly as a vet applying the knowledge of animals on humans then wondering why all his patients are dying.

Since then we have opened the door to countless thousands of Muslims from foreign lands with foreign cultures offering them the security and comforts of our country (and I welcome them/you and the countless other refugees from other countries). I believe that if I invite someone into my house and give then food and shelter and offer them my hand in friendship and they refuse to take it I have the right to ask why and when I get an answer that is not credible I have the right to question that answer.
i usually would agree with you about being good to your hosts, but when it comes to forsaking your religion, that would be about the cut off point and limit.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-30-2011, 02:46 PM
I dont want a dude to touch my hand. It's my hand, none of your business! Deal with it! Got a problem, then take it up with someone but bare in mind u will lose cause you'lll look nutty for making an issue over it :D

I dont see the hype over not shaking a persons hand. This is something we as humans have come up with to denote respect, doesnt mean everyone has to live by your standards. There are other various ways of showing that you're thankful, if you indeed invite someone over and would like thankfulness in return! It doesnt have to be a handshake! Get over it. Dont turn a perfectly lighthearted analogy into some kind of word war! People these days. Pshh.
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Thinker
03-30-2011, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
doesnt mean everyone has to live by your standards. .
The hand shake is not something I invented it is an integral part of Britsih culture, that's not a matter opinion it's matter of fact. The refusal to shake hands is a cultural value from an alien culture. If you want to pursue alien cultural values refusing to integrate with the other 98% of the population you will find that their patience and tolerance will eventually turn. If a Muslim moves in the house next door to me I will knock on their door and hold out my hand to greet them; if any of them refuse to shake my hand it I will take that as an insult and our relationship will progress on that basis.
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Thinker
03-30-2011, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar;1424873

[url
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134305436-dar-al-islam.html#post1424389[/url]
You will know (I presume) that it is against forum rules to discuss off topic items. I would be happy to purse any issue in relation to my question on dar al Islam within that thread.
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Beardo
03-30-2011, 04:12 PM
Haha, very nicely said! I should use that next time. :O
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Zafran
03-30-2011, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No there isn't, there's nothing in the Qu'ran or the hadith that prohibits hand shakes. Hand shakes as a form of greeting was not the custom in 6th century Arabia. The restriction on handshakes is something brought in my men long after Muhammad's death.
I can safley say that shaking hands wasnt part of arab culture and neither was it part of Brtish culture and it still isnt - you can live in the UK without shaking anybodies hand. Do you realy think that handshakes were an old British custom?
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Zafran
03-30-2011, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The hand shake is not something I invented it is an integral part of Britsih culture, that's not a matter opinion it's matter of fact. The refusal to shake hands is a cultural value from an alien culture. If you want to pursue alien cultural values refusing to integrate with the other 98% of the population you will find that their patience and tolerance will eventually turn. If a Muslim moves in the house next door to me I will knock on their door and hold out my hand to greet them; if any of them refuse to shake my hand it I will take that as an insult and our relationship will progress on that basis.
Its not a fact that shaking hands is part of uk culture - I've met many people and we've never had to shake hands. I've lived my entire life in the UK.

Furthermore a person like you who knows that some muslims would find it offensive to shake your hand would you still do it?

Nobody should integrate - Just like Jews in Iran should not follow all the rules of Iran there culture and religion should be respected - so should the copts in Egypt - the same goes for other religious and cultural minorities in the UK.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
03-30-2011, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The hand shake is not something I invented it is an integral part of Britsih culture, that's not a matter opinion it's matter of fact. The refusal to shake hands is a cultural value from an alien culture. If you want to pursue alien cultural values refusing to integrate with the other 98% of the population you will find that their patience and tolerance will eventually turn. If a Muslim moves in the house next door to me I will knock on their door and hold out my hand to greet them; if any of them refuse to shake my hand it I will take that as an insult and our relationship will progress on that basis.
You also need to keep in mind that, if you were to shake hands with the muslims wife, when you fully know as muslim women we do not shake hand with the opposite gender who is nor our mahram, it would be also be classed as 'disrespectful'.

But if you didnt know, then there is no problem, either the muslim explains to you the reason. You need to know it isnt all about culture of Uk, its also about knowing the culture of each human living in the Uk (or other countries for that matter), the religion etc the way of life of the person you are communicating with. Having rights given to one. For example this is a big world, humans are from all parts of the world, there may be some thing one culture follows whereas the other does not, but they all live in one country as long as they abide by the laws of that country and live in peace with one another. Like light of Heaven mentioned its not a big matter.

So if a muslim women moves next door to you, your going to go shake hands with her, even though your fully aware its not part of her faith/way of life, and if she refuses, your going to call her a disrespectful women? You do realise you are allowed to shake hands with the man? If thats the case, you will never be at peace with anyone, you need to also respect the views, values, beliefs of the person, or you can continue calling people disrespectful even when your aware its not something they take part in.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-30-2011, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The hand shake is not something I invented it is an integral part of Britsih culture, that's not a matter opinion it's matter of fact. The refusal to shake hands is a cultural value from an alien culture. If you want to pursue alien cultural values refusing to integrate with the other 98% of the population you will find that their patience and tolerance will eventually turn. If a Muslim moves in the house next door to me I will knock on their door and hold out my hand to greet them; if any of them refuse to shake my hand it I will take that as an insult and our relationship will progress on that basis.

Do you know how to read? Where did i say you invented it? It's not about you sunshine! It had nothing to do with just British culture, everyone does it but you cant force me to shake your hand. You find it insulting because youre used to this idea. I find it just as insulting that non Muslims roam around half naked in our countries.

No one said they will refuse your handshake. We are talking about the WOMEN. A lot of us will not touch your filthy man hands, I sure as heck wont. When you knock on my door and I happen to open it, I'll more than likely not reach out to your hand. I know thats a problem for you but that is your problem. There are alternatives to that even!

Dont hype up the concept of a handshake more than necessary, it's cheesy and rather tiring. You took a perfectly innocent thread and turned into another one of your charades. Spare a thread please!
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Little_Lion
03-30-2011, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The hand shake is not something I invented it is an integral part of Britsih culture, that's not a matter opinion it's matter of fact. The refusal to shake hands is a cultural value from an alien culture. If you want to pursue alien cultural values refusing to integrate with the other 98% of the population you will find that their patience and tolerance will eventually turn. If a Muslim moves in the house next door to me I will knock on their door and hold out my hand to greet them; if any of them refuse to shake my hand it I will take that as an insult and our relationship will progress on that basis.
Thinker, you said that you were here to understand Islam . . . I wouldn't say that you have to embrace it, that's your choice, but what you state above sounds an awful lot like whether you understand it or not, if you do not agree with it, you will not RESPECT the beliefs of others. You know very well that the handshake would not be turned down by a Muslim woman out of insult, yet you say you will take it that way and make the conscious decision, even when informed, to start off your knowledge of each other with an offense on the table. How would that demonstrate understanding of another person's practices if you would deliberately disrespect it?
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-31-2011, 02:04 AM
I dont want a dude to touch my hand. It's my hand, none of your business! Deal with it! Got a problem, then take it up with someone but bare in mind u will lose cause you'lll look nutty for making an issue over it
i think shaking someone's hand who doesn't want to shake your hand, is rude simply because if someone doesn't want to touch you hand, who are you to tell them otherwise :hmm: if someone doesnt want you to go near them, then you should respect that. otherwise, it is an invasion of personal space and privacy. talk about being a leech.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-31-2011, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
i think shaking someone's hand who doesn't want to shake your hand, is rude simply because if someone doesn't want to touch you hand, who are you to tell them otherwise :hmm: if someone doesnt want you to go near them, then you should respect that. otherwise, it is an invasion of personal space and privacy. talking about being a leech.

Exactly. It is rude and an invasion of space.

In some places, to them, respect involves more physical contact. For example hugging. What if they find that rude?? This is why I said this is something humans have come up with. Different ways to denote respect.

Seriously, get over yourself dude.
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sherz_umr
03-31-2011, 11:23 AM
u no,in india, v do this 'namaste' thing..i.e. folding both hands together..when i asked my history ma'am about it (shes solid high caste, hindu,realy old)..she tld its coz 'v dont have to touch another person,esp ladies..thts better than shaking hands anyway,just slightly bow ur head to show respect..' i thnk she misd namasteing. :D
I thnk its a culture thing..and there are people who dosnt lke touching and being touchd. Hmm..dont they bow in japan?
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Hannah.
03-31-2011, 02:01 PM
Haha wow I never knew sharing this beautiful analogy would cause such a stiff arguement. Brother Thinker, please hype it down.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-31-2011, 02:06 PM
He's not even our brother.
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sherz_umr
03-31-2011, 02:54 PM
wel, hes 'brother' in humanity.. :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-31-2011, 04:28 PM
Still wouldnt call him brother. A troll doesnt deserve to be called a brother...
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