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Danah
03-27-2011, 08:22 PM
Greetings everybody,

I came across this video today and thought of sharing it with everyone here especially our Christians members to know their feedback.




Is there any Christians who still pray that way? if no then why not?


Note: I am not seeking a debate here.
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Sol Invictus
03-30-2011, 03:58 PM
i haven't really double checked all the bible verses yet seeing as i'll be leaving my house soon but thought that i'd mention a few things concerning the manner in which jesus prayed, but first:

Jabir b. Samura reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The people who lift their eyes towards the sky in Prayer should avoid it or they would lose their eyesight. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 0862)

Abu Huraira reported: People should avoid lifting their eyes towards the sky while supplicating in prayer, otherwise their eyes would be snatched away. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 0863)
"Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all." Mark 6:41

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.’" John 17:1-5

"And when you STAND praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Mark 11:25 (emphasis mine)

now, christians have no problems with the way jesus prayed. christians pray bowing down, sitting up, standing up etc. and so they see all of these in the bible and have no problem with it. yet the muslim however would have a problem with these other methods of prayer. do muslims pray the lord's prayer or is it christians? do muslims call god, father? some muslims actually do but given that the qur'an is adamant that allah is a father to no one then they are actually sinning by calling him 'father'. do muslims believe that jesus was the father's son? do muslims believe that jesus shared the very glory of the father before the creation of the world? let's not just look at how jesus prayed but also at the words that he used, right?

"Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.’" John 6:35-40

if we should follow the actions of jesus then we should also follow his teachings. christians believe in the above, do muslims?

anyway, the speaker in the above video ignores the fact that jesus prayed in different ways and i'm surprised at his book of revelation quote because these very same angels later on worship jesus as he sits on the very throne of god and rules as god! so if i am to believe his quotations then i am forced to worship jesus as god! this is what is so ironic about the video. i love it actually because if we're going to take his quotes seriously then we'd be forced to worship jesus as god. sorry but you can't make the bible teach anything other than christianity. there is no changing the words of god and i thank my great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ for that.

p.s. i should mention that i've written none of this with the intent to abrasive, if it comes off that way then i apologize.
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PouringRain
03-30-2011, 04:29 PM
If you are asking if there are Christians who bow down before God in prayer-- yes.
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Fivesolas
03-30-2011, 04:30 PM
wow, that is a really bad way to use the Bible. I will write more later.

I watched some other videos from this guy. My advice to Muslims would be not to promote this man, even if he seems to agree with Islam. There are far more intellegent and reasoned videos and articles from Muslims than to use this.
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gmcbroom
03-30-2011, 05:11 PM
Funny, I did that just the other night. You see Christians or rather Catholics do pray in that manner. However, it just depends on which ritual church you follow. I had the priviledge to participate in a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy when we venerated the Cross, and Lenten celebration on Sunday and Monday and we bowed down fully on multiple occasions during it. The Eastern Orthodox do this as well. It should be noted that Catholic Deacons, Priests and Bishops do this during their ordination. The Faithful of the Latin Rite don't have too however in fact there are rules limiting which time its acceptable and when its not. During Lent, it's acceptable: however most Sundays its not as thats a day of celebrating the Lord's Resurrection . Thus it makes since why most Reformed churches don't employ it, as they didn't have to do it before since some of their founders broke from the Latin rite. Perhaps some do it as a private devotions? You'd have to ask them.

Peace be with you
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PouringRain
03-30-2011, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
You see Christians or rather Catholics do pray in that manner.
Protestants do also..... not making a generalized statement here about Protestants. Just indicating that it is not only within Catholic and Orthodox.
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gmcbroom
03-30-2011, 06:50 PM
I didn't mean to generalize either I hope I didn't offend anyone. I just wanted to say that I know that some do pray that way and some Don't.
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Sol Invictus
03-30-2011, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fivesolas
wow, that is a really bad way to use the Bible. I will write more later.

I watched some other videos from this guy. My advice to Muslims would be not to promote this man, even if he seems to agree with Islam. There are far more intellegent and reasoned videos and articles from Muslims than to use this.
indeed they shouldn't--especially when his entire point (though wrong as it is) is predicated on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously and him wanting us to. but then when this invariably leads to us worshiping jesus as god he would then have to turn around and tell us not to take the bible seriously when it commands us to honour christ in the exact same way that the father is honoured or believe that the words contained therein are from god at all. contradiction much?
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gmcbroom
03-30-2011, 08:06 PM
Well, I've listed a few where we clearly do worship in that manner. The key for us all to remember is that even if I hadn't done that in the bible says for us not to go about worshipping out in the open just so others can see us. For the Heavenly Father see us no matter where we're at or what we're doing. So we can even worship in secret and God wil know.
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
If you are asking if there are Christians who bow down before God in prayer-- yes.

not bow down, but prostrate.

Are there christians denominations who incorporate prostration on their regular pray?

It just seems to me that it smells like arrogant if you cant even make yourself prostrate to God.
I know that christians would answer that God does not need our prostration as long as we are sincere, well I'll say that God doesn't anything from us and does not need us at all, but that does not mean we are allowed to do as we please, right?

I just find it incredible that even Jesus (p), who christians worship as God, even prostrated in his pray to God, but current christians cannot make themselves prostrate to God?
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
but then when this invariably leads to us worshiping jesus as god he would then have to turn around and tell us not to take the bible seriously when it commands us to honour christ in the exact same way that the father is honoured or believe that the words contained therein are from god at all. contradiction much?

There are christians, such as jehovah witnesses, who don't honor and worship jesus (pbuh) as they do the father, and they believe the bible is instructive in this case.
Are you denying the bible?
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PouringRain
03-31-2011, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar


not bow down, but prostrate.
The answer is still yes. :)
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Sol Invictus
03-31-2011, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
It just seems to me that it smells like arrogant if you cant even make yourself prostrate to God.
I know that christians would answer that God does not need our prostration as long as we are sincere, well I'll say that God doesn't anything from us and does not need us at all, but that does not mean we are allowed to do as we please, right? [...] I just find it incredible that even Jesus (p), who christians worship as God, even prostrated in his pray to God, but current christians cannot make themselves prostrate to God?
christians do in fact prostrate so your point is rendered moot. that said, according to the bible it is not necessarily the actions which one does but rather the spirit in which these are performed. god is not interested in outwardly signs of worship but rather with the inwardly. once one has prostrated with their heart (that is, in humbling themselves before god) doing so with their body is rather irrelevant and while it is a nice display of their humility it adds little to the content of their heart. it is the disposition of the heart that matters. yet once again, this point is irrelevant because the bible itself shows that jesus prayed in many ways and even commanded believers to pray standing up. so no, if we are to follow the bible then we would end up with the current practices.

(i'm too tired to do so myself but could someone tie this up with the response of jesus to the woman at the well, about worship being done "in spirit and in truth" instead of outwardly signs of custom?)

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
There are christians, such as jehovah witnesses, who don't honor and worship jesus (pbuh) as they do the father, and they believe the bible is instructive in this case.
Are you denying the bible?
as i recall, jw's believe that christ is "a god" but not "the God". i certainly am not denying the bible particularly when jesus himself says:

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. --- John 5:19-23 NIV

the above is quite clear in the fact that christ demands to be honoured exactly as the father is honoured.

anyway, i must reiterate my point that your argument depends on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously which is rather ironic seeing as you don't want us to take it seriously because this then leads to jesus being worshiped. i think that if you're going to try to make an argument you should choose one that isn't contradictory to your muslim faith. you cannot maintain this argument without eventually having to be inconsistent and inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
that said, according to the bible it is not necessarily the actions which one does but rather the spirit in which these are performed. god is not interested in outwardly signs of worship but rather with the inwardly. once one has prostrated with their heart (that is, in humbling themselves before god) doing so with their body is rather irrelevant and while it is a nice display of their humility it adds little to the content of their heart.

I agree because this is also my observation of christian theology: that outward actions are not important and irrelevant.
I've seen and heard this many times with christians.
I guess this is one of the differences with Islam.
In Islam, actions are as important as intentions/what's in the heart.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
it is the disposition of the heart that matters. yet once again, this point is irrelevant because the bible itself shows that jesus prayed in many ways and even commanded believers to pray standing up. so no, if we are to follow the bible then we would end up with the current practices.
Your description about how Jesus pray actually fits perfectly shalah:
everything starts with intentions within heart and the disposition to submit and worship God, and the movements of shalah also incorporate all of Jesus' actions: standing up, bowing down, sitting down, prostration.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
as i recall, jw's believe that christ is "a god" but not "the God". i certainly am not denying the bible particularly when jesus himself says: Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. --- John 5:19-23 NIV
I actually could not find John 5:19-23 in NWT Bible and in several other bibles.
Are you sure that John 5:19-23 exist, and not just some fabrication?

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
anyway, i must reiterate my point that your argument depends on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously which is rather ironic seeing as you don't want us to take it seriously because this then leads to jesus being worshiped. i think that if you're going to try to make an argument you should choose one that isn't contradictory to your muslim faith. you cannot maintain this argument without eventually having to be inconsistent and inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.
As many muslims would undoubtedly have told you many times: we believe there's till remnants of truth in gospel, and if it does not contradict the Qur'an and in confirmation with the Qur'an than we believe it is still true.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-31-2011, 04:35 AM
the only form of worship i see Christians doing, is singing. no, seriously...

anyway:
Sol Invictus (replying to this post, http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1424955 ):
Your line or argument is not consistent. The hadiths you quoted have to do with Salah (Prayer). Salah (prayer) does not mean supplicating which what you have quoted, is implying.

And then you bring up the father/son thing as an attempt to validate your argument then blame Muslims for not accepting the way Jesus prayed, as if blaming us for taking our prayer seriously.

Second, We are talking about praying….how did it change into the father/son thing?

and yes, Muslims do have a problem with these types of prayer that you mentioned because prayer in Islam, has been specified in a certain way, wherein which if this manner was not fulfilled, prayer would not be accepted and it is void. We don’t introduce things according to our own accord we hear and obey because we submit and are slaves to Allah.

if we should follow the actions of jesus then we should also follow his teachings. christians believe in the above, do muslims?
No, we don’t believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is the son of god. isnt that obvious already.

And we don’t also believe in people who clutch onto straw-men in debate as to sow doubts in our hearts <_<
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
The answer is still yes.

which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.
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Sol Invictus
03-31-2011, 09:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I actually could not find John 5:19-23 in NWT Bible and in several other bibles.
Are you sure that John 5:19-23 exist, and not just some fabrication?
wow naidamar, are you seriously going to make this claim? i'm looking at the official watchtower website and lo and behold, john 5:19-23 is still there. now we can accuse the jw's of many things but we need not accuse them of things they clearly have not done. that said, you also claimed that you checked several other bible translations and couldn't find this passage within them, can you please give us the names of these translations or else i would be forced to believe that you have been deceiving on the matter.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Your description about how Jesus pray actually fits perfectly shalah:
everything starts with intentions within heart and the disposition to submit and worship God, and the movements of shalah also incorporate all of Jesus' actions: standing up, bowing down, sitting down, prostration.
now that is rather interesting naidamar. as i understand it, these movements in salah are a continuous process that one engages in during a certain time. by that i mean that it is not salah if an individual stands up and prays, and then a couple of hours later prays sitting down, then maybe the next day he prays while prostrated etc. i'm sure that we're in agreement on this point and so i find it quite strange how you can go on to claim that christ was participating in salah when these instances of bowing, praying while standing up, etc. are all concerning different events. can you please look within scripture and find us an instance when christ performs all these actions during the same event? if you are unable to do so, will you still claim that contrary to any evidence, christ in the bible is still performing the salah? i'm very interested because to me that really looks like trying to interpret the text in order to say something it doesn't.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
Your line or argument is not consistent. The hadiths you quoted have to do with Salah (Prayer). Salah (prayer) does not mean supplicating which what you have quoted, is implying.
prayer and supplication aren't two different things. supplication is a form of prayer. thats aid, i haven't grasped your point and i would very much liek it if you could elaborate on this in your next post.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
And then you bring up the father/son thing as an attempt to validate your argument then blame Muslims for not accepting the way Jesus prayed, as if blaming us for taking our prayer seriously.
not exactly. the muslim claim is that christians are not following the example of christ by supposedly not praying in the manner that he did. if we are to look to jesus as our example then shouldn't we also look at what he said? if not, why not? if we look at what he said then we see that he spoke in a manner that no muslim would agree with but that the christian certainly does not have any problems with. if then the muslim argument is dependent on trying to make christians adhere to the teachings of christ in the bible (given that the video consists of nothing but citations from the bible) then we should also follow the words spoken by christ.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
Second, We are talking about praying….how did it change into the father/son thing?
once again it is because of the fact that if we are to follow the actions of christ, we must also follow the words of christ.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
and yes, Muslims do have a problem with these types of prayer that you mentioned because prayer in Islam, has been specified in a certain way, wherein which if this manner was not fulfilled, prayer would not be accepted and it is void. We don’t introduce things according to our own accord we hear and obey because we submit and are slaves to Allah.
it is wonderful that you adhere to the commandments of the muslim deity, one ought only to follow that which they believe to be true. that said, you prove my point by taking issue with the other ways in which jesus is known as having prayed. look, the entire muslim argument was that seeing as jesus was recorded as bowing down in the bible, christians are not being faithful to him by not bowing down as well but given that jesus prayed inmany different ways and is recorded to telling his adherers to stand up while praying and you yourself claiming that you can't agree to these other methods of prayer, your position is shown to be one of inconsistency. the muslim position was never one of trying to get christians to follow the manner in which jesus prayed in the bible seeing as the text is clear that he prayed in different ways at different times (and christians are known as praying in all those different ways at different places around the world at different times and as such, they really do follow the example of christ) but rather of trying to get the christian to perform salah while there is no warrant for it at all within the bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
And we don’t also believe in people who clutch onto straw-men in debate as to sow doubts in our hearts
i'm sorry, it was never my intention to cause you to doubt but if merely showing how the muslim position is one of inconsistency in this regard, ends up causing you to doubt then you might want to reexamine your own faith.
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 10:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
wow naidamar, are you seriously going to make this claim? i'm looking at the official watchtower website and lo and behold, john 5:19-23 is still there. .
My bad. I misread it as 1 John.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
now that is rather interesting naidamar. as i understand it, these movements in salah are a continuous process that one engages in during a certain time. by that i mean that it is not salah if an individual stands up and prays, and then a couple of hours later prays sitting down, then maybe the next day he prays while prostrated etc.

Let me ask you:
Was Jesus (pbuh) a jew or christian?
(a) Did he go to his nearest church in Jerusalem, ate bread and drink wine, and started singing to the top of his lungs and swaying his hips while throwing his hands up in the air southern church-style?
(b) Or did he go to the temple where there's no benches, pews, desks, crosses, statues, podiums, images, what-have-you, and prayed like any other pious God-fearing jews at that time?

So how do orthodox jews pray according to tanakh and talmud?

Let's watch these videos shall we:






It seems to me that ancient jews would also pray very similar to shalah.
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Danah
03-31-2011, 11:45 AM
Peace everyone,


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.

I am interested in knowing that as well.
Thanks PouringRain for your answers here.


format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
prayer and supplication aren't two different things. supplication is a form of prayer.
Allow me to clarify this for you please, prayer as a general term means supplications or asking God for something to be granted. In Islam they use the term "praying" because its the most fitting English word for the Arabic word salah but what we are doing is not literally praying, rather its worshiping.

If we are talking about supplication then we use the Arabic word "duaa" which means supplicating or asking Allah for something, but you will find many people who use the word "prayer" instead.

Yeah you will tell me that supplication is a kind of worship too, I agree with that, but we as Muslims can pray (supplicate) to Allah any time in any place at any situation. But if we want to worship Allah meaning that we want to perform salah we need to fulfill some other conditions before like performing ablution, wearing proper clothes, find a good quiet clean place to perform it.

So, salah means worship while duaa means supplications....but the term "prayer" is used to explain both of them.


I hope that clarify the issue to you

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Let's watch these videos shall we:
Interesting videos, thanks for sharing...I remember watching the second video and was very impressed that they are still praying that way.
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Daniel Hoseiny
03-31-2011, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
The Eastern Orthodox do this as well.
Right!:statisfie
format_quote Originally Posted by Danah
Is there any Christians who still pray that way?
The attitudes of adorations among the early Christians were borrowed, as one would expect, from the Jews; an instance of how minutely the Jewish custom was followed is seen in Tertullian’s description of Christian worship, given in the Corona Militis iii. He says that on Sunday and the whole week of the festival of Pentecost, prayer was not to be said kneeling. This is thoroughly in accordance with Jewish presedent, for the synagogal custom (minhag), as old as the first Christian century, omits the prostrations on festivals and semi-festivals.
From: Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, part 1 by James Hastings

This is what Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD) wrote:
On the Lord's day we account it unlawful to fast or to worship upon the knees 37. We enjoy the same freedom from Easter Day even unto Pentecost 38. We feel pained if any of the wine, or even of our bread 39, be spilled upon the ground. |165 In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our forehead with the sign 40 of the cross.
h t t p: //w w w .tertullian.org/lfc/LFC10-11_de_corona.htm

As you can see the practice of prostration is as ancient as the Christianity itself and is still practiced by (Orthodox) Christians (also by other Christians as it was stated before).
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.
Please visit this (Copy, correct and paste the following URL into your browser):
h t t p : / /w w w .youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y&feature=related
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Sol Invictus
03-31-2011, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Was Jesus (pbuh) a jew or christian?
that's somewhat like asking if allah is muslim. anyway, christ was ethnically jewish. a member of the tribe of judah, the true king of israel. he was also the first christian in the regard that he was the first to teach the message of the gospel.

as far as your other points go, they are rather baseless. a christian is not reduced to your inaccurate descriptions. not to mention that christ did indeed drink wine, break bred, and sing hymns. that said, the practises of christ are more in keeping with what the christian tradition than the muslim tradition. let us not merely look at how christ supposedly prayed but rather at what he taught.

@danah: thanks for the explanation.
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Fivesolas
03-31-2011, 03:32 PM
If I take the OP video's advice, and follow Jesus in prayer, both in His example, and teaching, I am more than glad to do so:

Matthew 6:5-8
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Commentary: I learn from Christ that religious people may pray in such a manner that they desire to be seen by people to be pious or religious. They seek glory and honor from men rather than from God alone. Jesus is rebuking the outward show of religion and exhorting His disciples to genuine, sincere prayer toward God from the heart. The Lord doesn't want me to make an open show of my prayers or use repitious words supposing that God will hear me if I say something over and over again.

How then does the Lord want me to pray? In what manner?
"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." Matthew 6:9-13

Commentary: Given the previously mentioned verses, the Lord is not telling us to say these words over and over again. He is guiding our understanding of the content of prayers before God. This is a pattern to follow, not a ritual.

Jesus often went away, alone, to pray. Matthew 14:23; Mark 1:35; Mark 6:46; Luke 5:16

Much can be said concerning prayer, but much is illustrated by the following parable of the Lord:

Luke 18
"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Again, we see the Lord laying the emphasis upon the heart, and not the outward form. For those not familliar, a publican in Jesus' day was a person (Jew) contracted by the Roman government, usually as a tax collector, and were despised by their fellow Jews. They were seen as traitors and sometimes they embezzeld money from their kinsmen. Imagine the nation of your people being occuppied by a foreign power, and one of yourselves contracts into the employment of that people to collect taxes from you, and even collects more than is due for their own personal gain. You would not be very happy with that person.

Now, consider that your neighbor, or friend, or family member is a devout Muslim, praying 5 times a day, giving to the poor, practicing righteousness, et. He goes to his prayers and prays something similiar to what is told in Jesus' parable. And so also the tax collector. Jesus is saying that the tax collector went away justified before God, not the religious man.

Why? Because the religious man trusted in himself, his deeds and actions, that he is righteous before God. But the publican, feeling and knowing himself a sinner, sought the forgiveness and mercy of God. He had no righteousness of his own to trust in, nor would pretend to have it. This was the case with the pious man, although he did not know it. The pious man was righteous in his own eyes, and perhaps in the eyes of others, but not before the All Holy God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before His eyes.

I heard one person make the remark concerning a sheep. A shepherd had a beutiful flock of sheep, but one ewe was brilliantly white. Everyone admired his sheep. It was without spot and without blemish. Everyone marveled at how beutifully white and pure the sheep's wool was. One day, snow fell and was of such purity of white as only snow can be, that this beautiful sheep looked dirty against the brightness and purity of the snow.

We sometimes see ourselves as righteous, in our own estimation, against the backdrop of the impious, irreligious, apostates, et. But hold our righteousness up to the backdrop of the holiness of Almighty God, and every one of us would cover our mouth with our hands and repent in dust and ashes. So was the case with the prophet Elijah when He saw the glory of Almighty God and cried, "Woe is me, for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts." Isaiah 6:5

We Christians may posture our bodies uprightly, lift our eyes to heaven to pray, lower our gaze while we pray, kneel, prostrate ourselves, or beat our chests in repentance before God, but if all this is mere self-righteousness and repitiation, it is for nothing. God said in David, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17

This, and what Sol has shared, is why when true Christians hear what is given in the OP, it carries no weight or force. What I heard from the man in the video is a call to outward form, such things as can be seen of men and regarded in their eyes as pious and holy. What I hear from God by His Son is that He looks upon my heart. God does not see as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart.

"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7
Reply

YieldedOne
03-31-2011, 06:16 PM
Personally, I have no problem praying in prostration before God. I've done that for years. But I would agree with Fivesolas that it is much more the state of the heart that is important rather than the form. Form should fit function. If prostrating yourself before God aids you in coming before him humbly and with awe, then do so. If being absolutely silent in his presence sitting up is how you do that, do so.

God looks at the HEART of humanity. If the BODY movements serve the posture of the HEART, then they have significance. Otherwise, it's can be merely fodder for self-righteousness and judging other people.

Just my opinion.
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Grace Seeker
04-01-2011, 04:26 AM

Some suggest the origins for the form of prostration in Islam originated with Coptic Christians.



Other Christians also practice prostration in prayer:

In this Catholic ordination service you will that the ordinands have been prostrate in prayer just before this clip begins.


I've got no video of it (we were still chisling pictures out of stone tablets back in my day), but in my worship class in seminary we would pray in a variety of different physical posters, including (but not limited to) praying while fully prostrate with our face to the ground, and I am a protestant.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-01-2011, 08:23 AM
prayer and supplication aren't two different things. supplication is a form of prayer. thats aid, i haven't grasped your point and i would very much liek it if you could elaborate on this in your next post.
well of course you didnt. i mean its no wonder when all you seem to care about is blocking your ears to any common sense

not exactly. the muslim claim is that christians are not following the example of christ by supposedly not praying in the manner that he did. if we are to look to jesus as our example then shouldn't we also look at what he said? if not, why not? if we look at what he said then we see that he spoke in a manner that no muslim would agree with but that the christian certainly does not have any problems with. if then the muslim argument is dependent on trying to make christians adhere to the teachings of christ in the bible (given that the video consists of nothing but citations from the bible) then we should also follow the words spoken by christ.
see, on cloud nine, that would make all very lovely and perfect sense. but last i checked reality, the point of this thread wasn't about comparing what Muslims think and do with what Christians do (what you are saying). the point of this thread was inquiring if Christians still prayed the way as it says in their bible-being extremely similar to how Islam tells us to pray (what the talker in the video said).

you, being the oh so intelligent and wise individual you are, suddenly turned it around to making it sound like we are the ones with the problem (the talker wasn't talking about us, he was talking about you's)...you know like how you added the hadiths there that actually have practically nothing to do with what we are talking about and how you bought up some baloney argument about the father and son as if to say "well doh, no wonder why you dont accept the way we pray... if only you believed what we believed."

now, personal experience has it, then when people bring up baloney it usually means that the truth hurts them and so they orchestrate this lovely orchestration to move move completely and utterly away from the point...(thus the stawmen i was talking about.)...personal experience :><: anyway.....

nice try at turning the tables-though failed.

once again it is because of the fact that if we are to follow the actions of christ, we must also follow the words of christ.
so do your teachings also tell you to be unfair and act like an idiot in debate?

it is wonderful that you adhere to the commandments of the muslim deity, one ought only to follow that which they believe to be true. that said, you prove my point by taking issue with the other ways in which jesus is known as having prayed. look, the entire muslim argument was that seeing as jesus was recorded as bowing down in the bible, christians are not being faithful to him by not bowing down as well but given that jesus prayed inmany different ways and is recorded to telling his adherers to stand up while praying and you yourself claiming that you can't agree to these other methods of prayer, your position is shown to be one of inconsistency. the muslim position was never one of trying to get christians to follow the manner in which jesus prayed in the bible seeing as the text is clear that he prayed in different ways at different times (and christians are known as praying in all those different ways at different places around the world at different times and as such, they really do follow the example of christ) but rather of trying to get the christian to perform salah while there is no warrant for it at all within the bible.
yes, i also talk jargon when i have been proven wrong too...

i'm sorry, it was never my intention to cause you to doubt but if merely showing how the muslim position is one of inconsistency in this regard, ends up causing you to doubt then you might want to reexamine your own faith.
"the people" = me, ummu sufyaan? talking about being consistent.... :exhausted

Some suggest the origins for the form of prostration in Islam originated with Coptic Christians.
yes, and Hitler loved the Jews.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-01-2011, 10:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
christians do in fact prostrate so your point is rendered moot. that said, according to the bible it is not necessarily the actions which one does but rather the spirit in which these are performed. god is not interested in outwardly signs of worship but rather with the inwardly. once one has prostrated with their heart (that is, in humbling themselves before god) doing so with their body is rather irrelevant and while it is a nice display of their humility it adds little to the content of their heart. it is the disposition of the heart that matters. yet once again, this point is irrelevant because the bible itself shows that jesus prayed in many ways and even commanded believers to pray standing up. so no, if we are to follow the bible then we would end up with the current practices.

(i'm too tired to do so myself but could someone tie this up with the response of jesus to the woman at the well, about worship being done "in spirit and in truth" instead of outwardly signs of custom?)


as i recall, jw's believe that christ is "a god" but not "the God". i certainly am not denying the bible particularly when jesus himself says:

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. --- John 5:19-23 NIV

the above is quite clear in the fact that christ demands to be honoured exactly as the father is honoured.

anyway, i must reiterate my point that your argument depends on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously which is rather ironic seeing as you don't want us to take it seriously because this then leads to jesus being worshiped. i think that if you're going to try to make an argument you should choose one that isn't contradictory to your muslim faith. you cannot maintain this argument without eventually having to be inconsistent and inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.
As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses myself I should make a comment here.

A king who sends an ambassador to a foreign land would expect this ambassador to receive due honour as the king’s representative. If anyone dishonoured or insulted the ambassador then this would be taken as an insult to the king himself.

This is why Jesus, as God’s representative, said: “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him” in John 5:23.

But even an ambassador is not truly equal to the king himself. Even Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28). It is going beyond the meaning and context of the verse to suggest that Christians should pray to and worship Jesus just as they pray to and worship the Father.


Anyway, in the Bible, sometimes the servants of God would pray while standing or with their face toward the heavens. And sometimes they would bow down and fall upon their faces (2 Chronicles 7:3). Of Daniel it was said: “Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.” (Daniel 6:10)

I pray to God myself the same way.
Reply

PouringRain
04-01-2011, 01:07 PM
I wanted to respond to the last question that was posed to me, but Tues.- Thurs. are my busiest days, so this is the first I was able.

The question to me was, "which denomination." Since the groups aforementioned were Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, I took the question to mean "which protestant denomination?" The problem with asking this question, in relation to "incorporating it into their regular prayers" is that many protestant denominations do not have "regular prayers" in the same manner that others do. They do pray regularly, but these are not a ritualistic type of organized prayer (no prescribed times, actions, words, etc.). So, when asking the question about what denominations do this, it changes the original question. The question is no longer "why don't Christians pray this way?" (They do.) It becomes, "why don't many protestant denominations require this of their members in a prescribed manner?"

I don't have any video of this, Naidamar, but yes it is an amazing thing to see a full grown man squeezed down between and under the pews/seats and prostrating in prayer. :-) (Sorry, but I'm not in the habit of whipping out my camera in church and taking videos of people while the pray.) On one hand, it is amazing to think that a man could fit in such a tiny space, but on the other hand, when one thinks of the fact that this man is trading any earthly comfort at that moment, setting aside any physical feelings and focusing entirely on God, then how amazing it is that he has fallen down in prostration despite his surroundings. (In these churches it would totally be appropriate for someone to step into the aisle to pray or to go down front where there is room, but these people are so focused on God that their mind is not thinking of moving to a bigger space in that moment.)

There was a woman who said that when standing in the presence of God, she can not help but fall down on her face before him, because he is that Holy.


Regarding the Jews above, I know that none of us dispute that Jews prostrate, but I think it is important to note that not all Jews prostrate and also not all the time.
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-01-2011, 01:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
well of course you didnt. i mean its no wonder when all you seem to care about is blocking your ears to any common sense
i'm amazed that asking you to elaborate on your point constitutes blocking my ears. should i not have asked you to clarify your point? is trying to understand your point a faux pas? i must apologize for wanting to understand your argument, clearly i should have ignored it altogether since even after i have asked for clarification you'd rather engage in ad hominem attacks and frankly, that says more about the inability for you to prove your argument than anything else. please, let's keep this debate civil without resorting to such childish tactics. i'm fine with discussing with you but i will not entertain you if the above is the best that you can do.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
see, on cloud nine, that would make all very lovely and perfect sense. but last i checked reality, the point of this thread wasn't about comparing what Muslims think and do with what Christians do (what you are saying). the point of this thread was inquiring if Christians still prayed the way as it says in their bible-being extremely similar to how Islam tells us to pray (what the talker in the video said).
no, the point of the video was that christians weren't following the example of the prophets within the bible. yet if we look at what the bible commands we end up with the exact same practises that christians engage in today. on this note, it is quite clear that muslims do not actually want christians to follow the precepts of the bible but merely only that which looks similar to islam. once again this is a matter of inconsistency seeing as the person in the video wanted us to pray bowing down (which we in fact do) because this was in the bible but then he would have to turn around and tell us not to follow the bible when this would lead us to worshiping jesus as god. he brings a series of bible citations that actually work against him when they are examined in context. remember his claims that even angels bow down to god in heaven? well those very same angels worship jesus as god while he sits on the throne of god in the very same book where he gets that citation from. and so if it's those angels that we're supposed to be emulating, then we should also worship jesus as god. of course the person in the video would never admit this (even though his logic would in fact lead to this) and he would have to turn around and tell us not to follow the bible while in teh above video he is telling us to actually follow the bible (which we once again do).

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
you, being the oh so intelligent and wise individual you are, suddenly turned it around to making it sound like we are the ones with the problem (the talker wasn't talking about us, he was talking about you's)...you know like how you added the hadiths there that actually have practically nothing to do with what we are talking about and how you bought up some baloney argument about the father and son as if to say "well doh, no wonder why you dont accept the way we pray... if only you believed what we believed."
thank you for thinking that i am a wise and intelligent individual. any more praise and you'll make me blush.

once again the inidvidual's argument was predicated on christians not taking the bible seriously (as in the cases of bowing down while praying) and he supposedly wanting us to. can we agree that this is what his argument is based on? if so then when the christian does take their bible seriously, it leads to christ being worshiped as god and as such he would then have to turn around and say that we shouldn't follow our bible when it commands us to pray to and worship the lord jesus christ. so we then realize that this was never a matter of taking the bible seriously but rather of him wanting us to follow his own particular predilections. the father/son talk comes from the fact that if we are to follow the actions of christ, should we then not also follow the words of christ? could i tell you to follow the actions of muhammad but not to follow his words? clearly you'd tell me that you as a muslim have to follow both his actions and his words and the christian does the same with the matter of christ. the fact that the person in the video does not admit to this is rather hypocritical.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
so do your teachings also tell you to be unfair and act like an idiot in debate?
oh dear, here we go with the ad hominem attacks again. can we please keep to a civil discussion or are you simply incapable of this? i'm perfectly fine with our talk but your inability to be civil certainly detracts from us having a productive talk. while i suppose that your religion is perfectly fine with the fact that you repeatedly insult a person who has never insulted you, i as a christian cannot do the same ("you shall know them by their fruits"). but anyway, let's focus on what you said. now, i said that if we are to follow the actions of christ then it ought to follow that we should also follow the words of christ, you then respond by calling me unfair and an idiot for saying this. therefore i must ask you, do you merely follow the actions of your prophet or do you follow both his actions and his words? clearly you do the latter and as such if it is correct for you to follow both the actions and words of your prophet, why must the christian be called an idiot for doing the same with the actions and words of christ?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
yes, i also talk jargon when i have been proven wrong too...
it's fairly nice that you might believe this but could you please get to proving this for the rest of us? so far your post has been but an excuse to engage in personal attacks and i'm sure i speak for the rest of us when i say that we need not have this here. if you are going to engage in this discussion please leave your hate at the proverbial door, though you are more than welcome to take it with you on your way out.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
A king who sends an ambassador to a foreign land would expect this ambassador to receive due honour as the king’s representative. If anyone dishonoured or insulted the ambassador then this would be taken as an insult to the king himself. [...]
i'd have to disagree with this when it comes to god and how he acts in scripture. notice that moses and the prophets were god's representatives as well and none of them even came close to making the same claims as those which christ made for himself. by your logic it would have been fine for them to have been worshiped as christ was worshiped, by that claim it would have been fine for moses to claim to being the bread of life, or the resurrection itself, and generally claim to the exact same honour as that which the father received. but this is not the case, the prophets were quite clear that god does not share his glory with anyone. yet how can christ then claim to have shared the very glory of god before the world began? honouring god's representative (the prophet) is one thing, but worshiping him is another and as such i do not believe that you have made your point.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-03-2011, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
i'd have to disagree with this when it comes to god and how he acts in scripture. notice that moses and the prophets were god's representatives as well and none of them even came close to making the same claims as those which christ made for himself. by your logic it would have been fine for them to have been worshiped as christ was worshiped, by that claim it would have been fine for moses to claim to being the bread of life, or the resurrection itself, and generally claim to the exact same honour as that which the father received. but this is not the case, the prophets were quite clear that god does not share his glory with anyone. yet how can christ then claim to have shared the very glory of god before the world began? honouring god's representative (the prophet) is one thing, but worshiping him is another and as such i do not believe that you have made your point.
The Bible clearly presents Jesus as the high priest (Hebrews 8:1) for worshipers of God. A priest mediates between God and men but does not receive religious worship directed to himself. And God can be many things but surely God cannot be a priest. That would be absurd.
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Sol Invictus
04-03-2011, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
The Bible clearly presents Jesus as the high priest (Hebrews 8:1) for worshipers of God. A priest mediates between God and men but does not receive religious worship directed to himself. And God can be many things but surely God cannot be a priest. That would be absurd.
thanks for the reply hiroshi. the bible also clearly teaches that jesus is the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29). A lamb is a ruminant mammal, and while a man can be many things, they cannot be a lamb--that would also be absurd. anyway what i mean to say is that these terms speak of a function that the second person of the trinity assumed when he entered creation to be born a man. as a man he could very well function as a high priest to mediate between god and men. i think that against the doctrine of the hypostatic union, all these objections become moot. on the other hand, while it is fairly easy to harmonize statements by christ such as "the father is greater than i"along trinitarian lines, it is far harder to harmonize statements where the christ wishes to be honoured in just the same way that god is honoured etc. along a non-trinitarian perspective.
Reply

Hiroshi
04-04-2011, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
thanks for the reply hiroshi. the bible also clearly teaches that jesus is the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29). A lamb is a ruminant mammal, and while a man can be many things, they cannot be a lamb--that would also be absurd. anyway what i mean to say is that these terms speak of a function that the second person of the trinity assumed when he entered creation to be born a man. as a man he could very well function as a high priest to mediate between god and men. i think that against the doctrine of the hypostatic union, all these objections become moot. on the other hand, while it is fairly easy to harmonize statements by christ such as "the father is greater than i"along trinitarian lines, it is far harder to harmonize statements where the christ wishes to be honoured in just the same way that god is honoured etc. along a non-trinitarian perspective.
Thank you Sol Invictus.

I see what you are saying here but I don't believe that it fully answers my point. As the sacrificial victim, Jesus is a symbolic lamb. But he is a literal high priest. And Jesus is the mediator between God and men. If Jesus was God then there would need to be a mediator between men and Jesus.

My main point is that Jesus taught his followers to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9), not to himself. We are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23-24). But we are not instructed to pray to Jesus.
Reply

gmcbroom
04-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Hiroshi,
You are of course correct. Yet, you have to look at the Whole Gospel. When he instructed his follower's to pray the Our Father he had yet to be crucified. His hour had not yet come. After he arose from among the dead thus conquering death, things changed. Thomas one of his disciples didn't believe it until he touched him in the flesh. Then Thomas himself said he was his Lord and God. Now you could use the argue meant that Jesus never called himself that. Yet, his actions, and what he said through out is ministry, pretty much point to his Divine identity. The jews of that day recognized this and they should, as he approached them in a way jews would understand through the Torah and Judiac customs.

However, all of this is besides the point. Since it changes the direction of this thread from how to pray, to one over trinitarian or unitarian belief thus, how one sees God.

Peace be with you
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-04-2011, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Thank you Sol Invictus.

I see what you are saying here but I don't believe that it fully answers my point. As the sacrificial victim, Jesus is a symbolic lamb. But he is a literal high priest. And Jesus is the mediator between God and men. If Jesus was God then there would need to be a mediator between men and Jesus.

My main point is that Jesus taught his followers to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9), not to himself. We are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23-24). But we are not instructed to pray to Jesus.
greetings hiroshi,

as far as symbols go, i can see your point but i think you have it reversed. christ is the real paschal lamb and whatever else serves only as a symbol for him (Colossians 2:17). seeing as the old covenant practises are a shadow of the reality which is found in christ, he himself is then the real sacrifice and as such it is the lamb that is the symbol. this then leads us to a problem with your understanding (i would think) seeing as the high priest sacrifices an animal (or in various religions, someone else) and not himself. do you see what i'm saying here? the high priest does not sacrifice himself yet christ did and so your own analogy isn't perfect.

now, in the respect that christ is also fully man, he himself can function as a mediator between god and man (although i must wonder how you can bring this up seeing as i believe that jw's believe christ to be divine and men aren't divine, so in your understanding i don't think that this would work at all unless you also posit a hypostatic union). i think that all these objections give way when the matter of the hypostatic union is appreciated. insomuch as this is a muslim board, i should also mention that there is no objection that i can find against the divinity of christ which can't be put to rest when our detractors are made known of the hypostatic union and what christians really mean when they say god became a man or that christ is god etc.

i like your point about jesus and prayer hiroshi but i should ask you who answers prayers? the bible is quite clear that the father answers prayers, and that christ is the one who answers prayers (john 16:23). furthermore, off the top of my head i can think of sections in the epistle of james concerning prayer which are pretty interesting, here is one:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. --- James 1:5-7 NIV

notice that the individual prays to god and yet it is the lord who grants prayers. if you read the opening lines of this epistle you'll see that james identifies christ with the lord and this understanding of "christ the lord" answering prayers is in keeping which jesus' own words that he himself grants these prayers. i then cannot see how christ is not himself god when prayers directed to god are answered by christ.
Reply

Predator
04-04-2011, 07:28 PM
The Bible teaches it's followers to Prostrate to the One True Living GOD Almighty:

"Then David said to the whole assembly, "Praise the LORD your God." So they all praised the LORD , the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Chronicles 29:20)"

"Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 9:18)"

"the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 24:16)"

"When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 18:39)"

The prostration to GOD Almighty is not wrong. It is the right and perfect way to worship your LORD, because in it, you bring yourself down for GOD Almighty in humility.

This is how all the Prophets prayed

And Abraham fell on his face and God talked with him . genesis 17:3

And Moses and Aaron fell upon their face and glory of the lord appeared to them number 20:6

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and did worship joshua 5:14

And Jesuswent a little further fell on his and did worship matthew 26:39
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-04-2011, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
The Bible teaches it's followers to Prostrate to the One True Living GOD Almighty:

"Then David said to the whole assembly, "Praise the LORD your God." So they all praised the LORD , the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Chronicles 29:20)"

"Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 9:18)"

"the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 24:16)"

"When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 18:39)"

The prostration to GOD Almighty is not wrong. It is the right and perfect way to worship your LORD, because in it, you bring yourself down for GOD Almighty in humility.

This is how all the Prophets prayed

And Abraham fell on his face and God talked with him . genesis 17:3

And Moses and Aaron fell upon their face and glory of the lord appeared to them number 20:6

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and did worship joshua 5:14

And Jesuswent a little further fell on his and did worship matthew 26:39
thank you, that is indeed one of the ways in which the bible portrays individuals as worshiping. i am glad that we can agree on this. i am also very happy that muslims are calling me to follow the practises in the bible. on this note, the bible also teaches the following:

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." --- Matthew 28:9

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him [Jesus]: but some doubted." --- Matthew 28:17


is it alright for christians to follow the bible in this regard as well? if not why not and would this reason have to do with trying to make christians follow the qur'an instead of the bible (and as such this had never to do with trying to make christians follow their bible in the first place)?
Reply

Predator
04-04-2011, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
thank you, that is indeed one of the ways in which the bible portrays individuals as worshiping. i am glad that we can agree on this. i am also very happy that muslims are calling me to follow the practises in the bible. on this note, the bible also teaches the following:

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." --- Matthew 28:9

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him [Jesus]: but some doubted." --- Matthew 28:17

is it alright for christians to follow the bible in this regard as well? if not why not and would this reason have to do with trying to make christians follow the bible instead of the qur'an (and as such this had never to do with trying to make christians follow their bible in the first place)?
No , Because he said that your worship to him in vain

" 'All this I will give you,' he (Satan) said (to Jesus), 'if you will bow down and worship me.' Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 4:9-10)"


They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' Matthew 15:9

Worshipping something doesnt make it God .The hindus even worship a phallus. does them worshipping it make it God ?lol.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:23)"

Again, here we clearly see how Jesus defined the true worship. It is the Worship of GOD Almighty alone! There is no "trinity worshiping". This is all bogus man made lies and "rules (Mark 7:7)" that misinterpret what Jesus really meant.


Even in Islam, Allah Almighty ordered the Angels to bow down to Adam peace be upon him (which by the way also exists in the original Bible as the next sub-section proves):
"And behold, We said to the angels: 'Bow down to Adam:' and they bowed down: Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. (The Noble Quran, 2:34)"

Does Adam become God ????


Let's look at the following verses:

1 Samuel 24
7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'?


Notice how David called Saul "my lord". While this is elaborated on much greatly in this article, but I just find it quite ridiculous that trinitarian Christians use "Jesus is lord" as a desperate proof for their lies about Jesus being our so-called "Creator".

Also, when David prostrated his face down to the ground to Saul, was he worshiping Saul as if Saul was GOD Almighty?


More examples:

2 Samuel 14:4
4 When the woman from Tekoa went to the king, she fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor, and she said, "Help me, O king!"

2 Samuel 14:22
22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request."
Reply

Danah
04-04-2011, 09:27 PM
Greetings everyone,

Okay now I think I got the answer of the question I asked in the first post, thanks everyone..

but why such practice is not widely practiced? some of you said that they do this in private, why its not widely practiced in churches?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Some suggest the origins for the form of prostration in Islam originated with Coptic Christians.
Interesting video. I bet that living in a Muslim country helps the Coptic to keep practicing some of their old practices that many other Christians seems to abandon.
Prostration in Islam was not originated from with Coptic Christians but it was way before that....the prostration is the way that humans used to worship Allah through since Allah created the whole universe till this moment, even angels prostrates to Allah.

Similarly Islam didn't come to invent anything new but to remind the humanity of the way that Allah taught his slaves to worship him through as he truly deserve to be worshipped .
Reply

Hiroshi
04-05-2011, 06:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
thank you, that is indeed one of the ways in which the bible portrays individuals as worshiping. i am glad that we can agree on this. i am also very happy that muslims are calling me to follow the practises in the bible. on this note, the bible also teaches the following:

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." --- Matthew 28:9

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him [Jesus]: but some doubted." --- Matthew 28:17


is it alright for christians to follow the bible in this regard as well? if not why not and would this reason have to do with trying to make christians follow the qur'an instead of the bible (and as such this had never to do with trying to make christians follow their bible in the first place)?
Daniel 2:46 KJV says: “Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.”

And Matthew 18:26 KJV says: “The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him [the king – verse 23], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.”


Sometimes the word translated as “worship” means merely “obeisance” i.e. a gesture of deep respect but not religious worship. Obeisance was rendered to prophets and kings as the above verses show. Jesus was both.
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-05-2011, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Daniel 2:46 KJV says: “Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.”

And Matthew 18:26 KJV says: “The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him [the king – verse 23], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.”

Sometimes the word translated as “worship” means merely “obeisance” i.e. a gesture of deep respect but not religious worship. Obeisance was rendered to prophets and kings as the above verses show. Jesus was both.
thanks for the reply hiroshi. i have to say that i agree that worship sometimes means to make obeisance, on that note we have no problem, and this is why i pointed to my revelation quote and the use of latreuo when speaking of god and the lamb. fact is that letreuo is used only in reference to god throughout the new testament and unlike proskuneó (the term in the above matthew citation), it carries the full meaning of worship. this is why the revelation citation is so telling given that christ receives this very worship as he sits on the throne of god.


format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve (latreusousin) him. They will see his face (to prosopon autou), and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:1-5
Reply

Hiroshi
04-05-2011, 12:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
thanks for the reply hiroshi. i have to say that i agree that worship sometimes means to make obeisance, on that note we have no problem, and this is why i pointed to my revelation quote and the use of latreuo when speaking of god and the lamb. fact is that letreuo is used only in reference to god throughout the new testament and unlike proskuneó (the term in the above matthew citation), it carries the full meaning of worship. this is why the revelation citation is so telling given that christ receives this very worship as he sits on the throne of god.
If I accept your argument that "latreuo" is only used with reference to God throughout the NT, there still seems to be some ambiguity in Revelation 22:3 as to whether the pronoun “him” refers to the Lamb or to God.
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-05-2011, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
If I accept your argument that "latreuo" is only used with reference to God throughout the NT, there still seems to be some ambiguity in Revelation 22:3 as to whether the pronoun “him” refers to the Lamb or to God.
yeah, which leads me into my next point concerning that verse. but first, here it is again:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve (latreusousin) him. They will see his face (to prosopon autou), and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:1-5

we should note that john says four things about the one who is receiving latreuo:

1. his servants will serve him
2. his face will be seen
3. his name will be on his servant's foreheads
4. he will provide them with light

throughtout the new testament, the same is said of christ:

1. his servants will serve him.

"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads MY SERVANTS into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols." Revelation 2:18-20

2. his face will be seen.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." Revelation 1:7

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

(we know that the above verse is speaking of christ because of similar verses such as the following:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29

"So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (en prosopo Christou)." 2 Corinthians 4:4-6)

3. his name will be on his servants’ foreheads.

"Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him MY NEW NAME." Revelation 3:12

"And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having HIS NAME and the name of his Father on their foreheads." Revelation 14:1

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God AND THE LAMB." Revelation 14:4

4. he will provide them with light.

"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty AND THE LAMB are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb IS ITS LAMP. The nations will walk by ITS LIGHT, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it." Revelation 21:22-24

it's fairly interesting when we compare the above with the following ot passages:

"The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end." Isaiah 60:19-20

"You are MY LAMP, O LORD; the LORD turns my darkness into light." 2 Samuel 22:29

"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put MY SANCTUARY among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when MY SANCTUARY is among them forever." Ezekiel 37:26-28

there is much, much more that could be said on the subject but i think that the above is enough.
Reply

Predator
04-08-2011, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fivesolas
Airforce,

It is hard to interact with someone when they take an agressive and hostile tone. In a gentlemanly discussion there is no need to disparage the one your trying to refute. While I do not believe Sol knows everything, he has certainly demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about. And he has demonstrated that he is very aware of the use of a word in different contexts to mean different things. The accusations you raise (or, rather, that you copied from a website presenting them as your own, without citing the source, which is dishonest) can be answered reasonably. But I have a greater concern for you than the disparagement you have cast on the Holy Scriptures. It is written,

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:32

In your attempt to refute the Holy Scriptures and Christians there is no need to speak against the Holy Spirit. Be careful my friend.
It doesnt matter one bit to me since i dont beleive your book is the word of God . The Holy Ghost who has inspired authors of the bible has proven himself a failure . Period.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
04-08-2011, 11:00 PM
Just a reminder to please keep this discussion civilised.
Reply

Predator
04-09-2011, 11:38 PM
Jesus said the following concerning praying:


5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.11 Give us this day our daily bread.12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 5-15)

Thus Jesus commanded his followers to pray to the Father, to the true God who is in the heavens as he says, Jesus did not command his followers to pray to him, so therefore why do Christians pray to Jesus when he explicitly taught people to pray to the Father!


So when Christians pray to Jesus they are simply acting against what he taught, and are acting on an innovation, and this innovation is a major sin, worshipping anything else beside the true God is a major sin, so why do Christians do it?

Secondly if one were to continue reading the Gospels one would find Jesus praying as well, as the Gospel says:

36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matthew 26:36-39)

Here we see Jesus praying, and he is praying to none other than the Father as he commanded his believers to do so! So why do Christians worship Jesus when he prayed to the Father, and taught you to worship the Father!

It also makes it more interesting to note that Jesus prays or prayed like a Muslim does, which is prostrating ones forehead on the ground. Will Christians now mock Jesus as they sometimes mock the way Muslims pray when we prostrate our foreheads to the ground? It seems the joke is now on the Christians who mock the Muslim prayer! (oh look at all those Muslims with their butt in the air! Haha) . Christians lying on thier knees before bed isnt the way Jesus prayed . So why do you do it ? Think about it.

Reply

gmcbroom
04-12-2011, 10:38 PM
Airforce, your last post speaks volumes. Tell me does the Koran or the books (Hadiths) allow for you to insult people of a different faith? I know the bible doesn't. And regrettfully while there are christians that do insult those of different faiths their not behaving as christians should and will be judged accordingly in the end as we all will.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-13-2011, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmcbroom
Airforce, your last post speaks volumes. Tell me does the Koran or the books (Hadiths) allow for you to insult people of a different faith? I know the bible doesn't. And regrettfully while there are christians that do insult those of different faiths their not behaving as christians should and will be judged accordingly in the end as we all will.
If you claim that Airforce's last post insult christians, then you are at the same time also making claim that the bible are insulting christians, because Airforce's last post is nothing but bible verses about how Jesus (pbuh) prayed.
Reply

gmcbroom
04-13-2011, 07:25 PM
I don't see how but I'll take your word for it. I thought I refering to those that make fun of others because of the way they pray.
Still you say tomato I'll say tomatoe. In short, those that insult others need to carefully look in the mirror, because we'll all have to give an accounting in the end. Don't you agree?
Reply

UsayIsaIsayGod
04-16-2011, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Jesus did not command his followers to pray to him, so therefore why do Christians pray to Jesus when he explicitly taught people to pray to the Father!

Christians lying on thier knees before bed isnt the way Jesus prayed . So why do you do it ? Think about it.
Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

This is a text within the bible which portrays the martyr Stephen not only praying to Jesus, but praying to Jesus without even having fallen to his knees yet.
So why do Christians worship Jesus when he prayed to the Father, and taught you to worship the Father!
Matthew 28
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

This is a text from the bible which portrays the women worshiping Jesus without reprimand.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 06:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by UsayIsaIsayGod
Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

This is a text within the bible which portrays the martyr Stephen not only praying to Jesus, but praying to Jesus without even having fallen to his knees yet.
Matthew 28
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

This is a text from the bible which portrays the women worshiping Jesus without reprimand.
Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-16-2011, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?
they were original written in koine greek which was the speech most accessible to the widest possible audience. this was in order to spread the gospel to as great a number of people as possible seeing as god has intended for christianity to be the religion of all people. that said, what exactly is your point with the above and how in fact does this disprove anything that the member said? if anything, the muslim position has been refuted and you are now changing the subject from whether or not the worship of christ is taught within scripture to what language it was originally written in. the above is a prime example of a non-sequitur.
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Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
they were original written in koine greek which was the speech most accessible to the widest possible audience. this was in order to spread the gospel to as great a number of people as possible seeing as god has intended for christianity to be the religion of all people. that said, what exactly is your point with the above and how in fact does this disprove anything that the member said? if anything, the muslim position has been refuted and you are now changing the subject from whether or not the worship of christ is taught within scripture to what language it was originally written in. the above is a prime example of a non-sequitur.

You may not believe it, but I, and I am sure majority of humanity, believe it is important to know exactly what was originally actually said and was actually meant.
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UsayIsaIsayGod
04-16-2011, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?
Sir, I neither understand nor speak Greek or Arabic, though I assume that when I study an English Q'uran the translation is accurate enough to preserve the original message and meaning.
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Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by UsayIsaIsayGod
Sir, I neither understand nor speak Greek or Arabic, though I assume that when I study an English Q'uran the translation is accurate enough to preserve the original message and meaning.

This does not answer my question.
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Sol Invictus
04-16-2011, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
This does not answer my question.
once again your question is a non-sequitur. your question has been answered yet you refuse to accept the answer.

that said, are you at all aware of the LXX? the fact is that prior to the christian era the jews themselves translated the hewbrew scriptures into greek. the LXX had a nice enough circulation among the jews and converted gentiles. it is therefore not surprising that the original gospel would also be written in greek because this was the lingua franca of the day. this was in order to allow the maximum possible exposure of the gospel to the masses. most scholars (and not just christian) are in agreement that the gospels were written in greek, it is simply individuals such as yourself that refuse to admit this. another important factor is the fact that paul, himself a jew was writing his letters in greek and not hebrew, this furthermore lends credence to the view that a global message such as that of the gospel would in fact have been written in greek. just as today, the lingua franca is english and as such if you want to expose your work to the largest variety of people then you will write in english. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that when you are spreading a universal message.
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UsayIsaIsayGod
04-16-2011, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar


This does not answer my question.
I apologize if you do not feel satisfied with the conversation I have offered thus far.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 03:34 PM
I am afraid Sol and Usay forgot what I asked, so here's again:

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?
Reply

Sol Invictus
04-16-2011, 03:57 PM
what exactly would it prove even if we were to give you the narrations? anyway, here they are all the same.

here is what the gospel was originally written in (matthew 28:9-10):

9 καὶ ἰδοὺ Ἰησοῦς ὑπήντησεν αὐταῖς λέγων· χαίρετε. αἱ δὲ προσελθοῦσαι ἐκράτησαν αὐτοῦ τοὺς πόδας καὶ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ. 10 τότε λέγει αὐταῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· μὴ φοβεῖσθε· ὑπάγετε ἀπαγγείλατε τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς μου ἵνα ἀπέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν, κακεῖ με ὄψονται.

here we have it in hebrew:

הנה הלכות להגיד לתלמידיו והנה ישוע נקרה אליהן ויאמר שלום לכן ותגשנה ותאחזנה ברגליו ותשתחוין לו׃

ויאמר אליהן ישוע אל תיראן לכנה והגדן לאחי וילכו הגלילה ושם יראוני׃

acts 7:59-60:

καὶ ἐλιθοβόλουν τὸν Στέφανον ἐπικαλούμενον καὶ λέγοντα· κύριε Ἰησοῦ, δέξαι τὸ πνεῦμα μου. 60 θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη.

Acts 7:59 Hebrew Bible
ויסקלו את אסטפנוס והוא משוע ואמר אדני ישוע קבל את רוחי׃
ויכרע על ברכיו ויצעק בקול גדול יהוה אל תשמר להם את החטא הזה ויהי אחרי דברו כדבר הזה ויישן׃

do let us know if you detect any change in the meaning between the greek, hebrew and english passages that were quoted for you earlier.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
what exactly would it prove even if we were to give you the narrations? anyway, here they are all the same.
Because we all know that the original words when translated to different languages would lose their exact meaning, nuances, etc. So without the originals preserved, we can never guarantee what is written in different languages convey the exact same meanings.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
here is what the gospel was originally written in (matthew 28:9-10):
Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
here we have it in hebrew:
Both you and I know that the hebrew NT was translated from english NT, either you try to delude yourself or you really think that english was the original language of Jesus (pbuh).
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Sol Invictus
04-16-2011, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.
congratulations you have just shot yourself in the foot. the qur'an is not written in the original language of christ either and if we are to go by what you said then we must also discount it. i was simply waiting for you to get to this point so that i could show you how your logic actually disproves your own holy book. the fact is that the qur'an is written in arabic and seeing as your point rests on the fact that the current bible is supposedly not the original one and that it is not written in the language that christ supposedly spoke then what about the qur'an when it speaks of the old testament prophets? did they speak arabic too? also, where are your copies of the original gospel, torah etc.? don't all muslims claim that these have been lost? so once again, you've only refuted yourself and islam.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Both you and I know that the hebrew NT was translated from english NT, either you try to delude yourself or you really think that english was the original language of Jesus (pbuh).
the hebrew was translated from the original language of the gospel, greek.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-16-2011, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
congratulations you have just shot yourself in the foot. the qur'an is not written in the original language of christ either and if we are to go by what you said then we must also discount it. i was simply waiting for you to get to this point so that i could show you how your logic actually disproves your own holy book. the fact is that the qur'an is written in arabic and seeing as your point rests on the fact that the current bible is supposedly not the original one and that it is not written in the language that christ supposedly spoke then what about the qur'an when it speaks of the old testament prophets? did they speak arabic too? also, where are your copies of the original gospel, torah etc.? don't all muslims claim that these have been lost? so once again, you've only refuted yourself and islam.

The Qur'an was revealed through an arab in Arabia, hence it was conveyed in arabic. Do you think it's acceptable if we have the qur'an written in Greek koine while we have no orginal in arabic?

Where was injeel revealed and through whom?
In athena through a greek?
or in medieval england through an englishman?
Reply

UsayIsaIsayGod
04-16-2011, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I am afraid Sol and Usay forgot what I asked, so here's again:
Sir, I do not intend to stray from the topic into a debate over languages and semantics. I merely wanted to offer my perspective from English scriptures to someone who was posing questions by using English scriptures -- a consistent medium between his post and mine.
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Sol Invictus
04-16-2011, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
The Qur'an was revealed through an arab in Arabia, hence it was conveyed in arabic. Do you think it's acceptable if we have the qur'an written in Greek koine while we have no orginal in arabic?
greetings naidamar, and what's wrong? i just quoted your exact words in which you claimed the following:

Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.

so i must ask you, is the qur'an written in the original language of jesus or any of the other prophets? how can we know what they really said if muslims no longer have these books? i'm simply using your very own language and logic against you. will you now deny your own words?

the new testament was written in greek in order to for the widest possible audience to have access to it. prior to this, the old testament was translated into greek by the jews so that there could be a greater access to it. if the new testament was meant only for the jews then perhaps you would have a point. but given that it was meant for the whole world and greek was the lingua franca during the time of its composition, it was thus written in greek. do you not understand the logic? it is the same reason why english is so important today because it is the language which can give you the widest access. what is so illogical about this?

once again naidamar, do you have the original words of jesus in the original language? while my point was based on having the original meaning, yours was based on having the original words and so can you produce for us the original injil in the original language of christ? after that, can you produce for us the original torah? basically, working your way back from christ, can you produce any of the original revelations of the supposedly thousands of prophets whom the muslim deity had sent in their original languages? if you can't then how can you be sure of what they taught? are you then not placing your faith (in the case of the new testament) on a seventh century book that unlike the new testament was not written under the direction of the disciples of jesus? once again, you simply have refuted yourself naidamar.
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Grace Seeker
04-16-2011, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
Gladly. Since the topic of the thread has to do with the manner in which Christians pray, I'll provide the original narration only for the Acts 7 passage that deals with a Christian praying:
και ελιθοβολουν τον στεφανον επικαλουμενον και λεγοντα κυριε ιησου δεξαι το πνευμα μου θεις δε τα γονατα εκραξεν φωνη μεγαλη κυριε μη στησης αυτοις ταυτην την αμαρτιαν και τουτο ειπων εκοιμηθη
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?
No. Given that so many of them were Galileans, several of them were known to engage in commerce or were formerly employeed by the Romans and that they spent a proponderance of their time in the Gentile communities around the north side of Lake Tiberias I suppose that when they were out in public they probably primarily spoke Greek.
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Ramadhan
04-17-2011, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
so i must ask you, is the qur'an written in the original language of jesus or any of the other prophets? how can we know what they really said if muslims no longer have these books? i'm simply using your very own language and logic against you. will you now deny your own words?

I am actually applying the same standard and logic to both Qur'an and Gospels. To ensure authenticity of the scriptures, they have to be preserved and in the original language where the words of God was revealed. This has been what I am asking all along. You are the one who is trying to obfuscate the matter and twist it.

There are also at least two important points where you chose to ignore:

1. Muslims believe the Qur'an is the direct words from Allah SWT revealed through Muhammad SAW, and everything in the Qur'an is either direct commands or narration from Allah SWT. The central and only point of view in the Qur'an is Allah SWT, while prophets (pbut) are characters in the narration. Allah revealed the stories in arabic because the messenger was an arab (and a complete illiterate at that) and the society was a 7th century desert arab communities. And the Qur'an has been fully preserved from its revelation.
Now tell me, did Jesus spoke koine greek or some other language that he might have used (maybe aramaic, ancient hebrew?). By applying the same standard and logic, the gospel should have not been in koine greek.

2. Qur'an is very clear, especially on the issue of who we worship. In fact, in the Qur'an, Jesus (pbuh) pleads with Allah SWT that he didn't teach his people (nasrani) to worship him. Meanwhile, from english bibles, the issue of who should be worshiped is quite murky, and this is because in the english bibles, there are some verses that narrated how some people "worship" jesus, while in some other bibles it is translated as "obeisance", or "pay respect". Therefore, it is very important to know exactly what was really meant originally. You and I both know that the first oral narrations of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples/people could not have been conducted in koine greek, especially the koine greek of the 4th century.
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Ramadhan
04-17-2011, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No. Given that so many of them were Galileans, several of them were known to engage in commerce or were formerly employeed by the Romans and that they spent a proponderance of their time in the Gentile communities around the north side of Lake Tiberias I suppose that when they were out in public they probably primarily spoke Greek.

Are you claiming that Jesus (pbuh) spoke 4th century greek with his disciples?
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Ramadhan
04-17-2011, 03:19 AM
Before this thread goes way off-topic, let's go back to the questions:

Why don't majority christians today do their acts of worships as prescribed and taught by Jesus (pbuh)?
Why do majority churches/christians choose not to follow the examples by Jesus (pbuh)?
Reply

UsayIsaIsayGod
04-17-2011, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
To ensure authenticity of the scriptures, they have to be preserved and in the original language where the words of God was revealed.
I do not believe this. I believe God gave man the intellectual capacity to accurately communicate between any number of different languages.
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Sol Invictus
04-18-2011, 04:45 AM
incredible, in your post you claim that given the intentions of the muslim deity (that is, revealing the message to arabs), the supposed words of the old testament prophets are not in their original languages but rather in arabic. then you turn around and claim that the christian understanding as it concerns the intentions of god, (that is, he wished to spread the gospel to the widest possible majority and during that time, this could only be done in greek, the gospel was therefore written in greek) is wholly incorrect even though they both work on the same principles. once again you only shoot yourself in the foot naidamar.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Are you claiming that Jesus (pbuh) spoke 4th century greek with his disciples?
naidamar, what exactly about the koine greek of the new testament makes it 4th century? could you give us the difference between 1 century koine greek and 4th century and where in the new testament did the writers use words which clearly speak to a 4th century rendition rather than a 1st? once again you conveniently ignore that prior to the christian era the old testament was translated into greek and used by the jews themselves! of course christians would then write in greek because this was in keeping with the lingua franca of the day. please begin to disprove this logic before making claims that are so completely wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Why don't majority christians today do their acts of worships as prescribed and taught by Jesus (pbuh)?
Why do majority churches/christians choose not to follow the examples by Jesus (pbuh)?
more importantly, the question should be, why are you so busy ignoring all the passages which have been presented so far. case in point, why have you particularly ignored the fact that the angels in heaven themselves worship christ as god as he sits on the very throne of god? your claim is that christians supposedly don't follow the bible and yet when we bring you all these passages from the bible where christ is worshiped by his disciples, where he tells people to pray standing up, where he asks to be honoured exactly as the father is honoured, where he is worshiped in heaven as he sits on the throne of god, you conveniently ignore these and then pretend that nothing on the matter has been presented so far.

in order to disprove the above, you tried to bring up the matter of the original languages and while we have already shown your position to be illogical and self-refuting, the biggest problem is that you are inconsistent. the muslims in this thread and the person in the video brought up passages from the new testament which at first seemed to support their claims but when passages from the exact new testament are brought forth to show how the muslim position is in error, the muslim argument suddenly switches to making claims that because the words are not in aramaic or hebrew then they prove nothing. but wait, weren't muslims just bring forth passages from the very same new testament to support their claims? inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument and once again naidamar, you have shot the muslim position in the foot. inconsistency and non-sequitur's are the only things you have brought to this thread.
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-18-2011, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar


Are you claiming that Jesus (pbuh) spoke 4th century greek with his disciples?

No, 1st century Greek. But that's really a side issue.

With regard to the topic of the thread, you asked for the passage describing Stephen in prayer in the original language it was spoken in and I have given it. The Acts 7, passage I quoted, wasn't Jesus speaking. It was Stephen, who was a Hellenized, Greek-speaking Jew who became a Christian and was selected to assist with ministering to the Greek-speaking widows of the fledgling Christian community. His story was witnessed and recorded by other Greek speakers. So, I think we can be confident that it accurately describes how Christianized Jews prayed.
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-18-2011, 07:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Before this thread goes way off-topic, let's go back to the questions:

Why don't majority christians today do their acts of worships as prescribed and taught by Jesus (pbuh)?
Why do majority churches/christians choose not to follow the examples by Jesus (pbuh)?

Actually we do. Why do you say that we don't? Do you think that Jesus taught that the only acceptable way to pray was prostrate like he did in the Garden of Gethsamane? It wasn't. In fact, that is the only time that it is recorded that Jesus ever prayed in that fashion, and I shouldn't be surprised that the reason it is mentioned is precisely because it was atypical. Indeed, the most common way for a first-century Jew to pray was on his feet. And Jesus never critiqued this as being wrong. Indeed, on at least one occassion he set that manner of praying forth as a model to be followed:

Luke 18

Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
And in Luke's account of Jesus praying in the Garden he tells us that Jesus initially knelt down in prayer. But other than telling stories of people standing to pray, Jesus never once gives instruction regarding one's physical posture in prayer. He only comments on the attitude of one's heart. So, if you are focused on the physical outside position of the body and not the internal position of the soul, I would suggest that you are focused on something different than Jesus taught those who followed him to focus on.
Reply

Ramadhan
04-18-2011, 08:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
incredible, in your post you claim that given the intentions of the muslim deity (that is, revealing the message to arabs), the supposed words of the old testament prophets are not in their original languages but rather in arabic.
not only that. You conveniently forgot the part where the message revealed to prophet Muhammad SAW, who was an arab and an illiterate one at that.

Just a side question: you keep saying "muslim deity", so does it mean that Allah is not god?
This question may not be appropriate for this thread, but it is my curiosity as you keep preferring that word instead of god. Various christians I met believe that prophet Muhammad SAW received revelation from God, so if who is this "muslims deity" you keep saying about?

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
then you turn around and claim that the christian understanding as it concerns the intentions of god, (that is, he wished to spread the gospel to the widest possible majority and during that time, this could only be done in greek, the gospel was therefore written in greek) is wholly incorrect even though they both work on the same principles. once again you only shoot yourself in the foot naidamar.
There are so many holes in your argument, because it is clear you only want to hear your own voice and the voices of early rabbis and priests and unknown scribes, instead of what Jesus (pbuh) said and commanded. Also it is clear that you want to obfuscate the core of the matter (ie. the authenticity of what Jesus actually said) with a lot of words and argument.
So let's see if among the gospels we can still uncover some truth:

"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6)
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24)

From the verses it is clear that the message of Jesus was intended only for the israelites, not for the greeks, neither for the europeans.
Also, can yo give me evidence that Jesus (pbuh) spoke greek to his disciples if you so insist that the words of God revealed to Jesus were in Koine greek?
You have been avoiding this matter and muddle it up with everything else.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
naidamar, what exactly about the koine greek of the new testament makes it 4th century?
Is your question really genuine or do you really not to know the history of your own bible?
The oldest surviving Christian Bibles are Greek manuscripts from the 4th century; the oldest complete Jewish Bible is a Greek translation, also dating to the 4th century. The oldest complete manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible (the masoretic text) date from the Middle Ages.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
could you give us the difference between 1 century koine greek and 4th century and where in the new testament did the writers use words which clearly speak to a 4th century rendition rather than a 1st?
Again, you try to muddle up the matter here. the question is less whether it's 1st century or 4th century greek, but the question is whether jesus and his disciples and his followers (who were all jews/israelites) used greek to communicate between them, and the question is also whether the words of God were revealed to Jesus in greek. So far all studies stated no.
And even then, say the jews of israel communicated to each other in 1st century greek (instead of either aramaic or ancient hebrew), do you really not think that after 4 centuries, the meanings of words shifted?

As we all know from every languages, words, vocabs and their meanings shift and evolve.
If not, why do you think bible is continually revised? Why was there a need to create New International Version to replace King James Version?
so a translation from a translation from a translation from a translation while the original is already lost.
sounds familiar?
Yes, it is a chinese whisper, which is exactly what bible is.


format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
more importantly, the question should be, why are you so busy ignoring all the passages which have been presented so far. case in point, why have you particularly ignored the fact that the angels in heaven themselves worship christ as god as he sits on the very throne of god? your claim is that christians supposedly don't follow the bible and yet when we bring you all these passages from the bible where christ is worshiped by his disciples, where he tells people to pray standing up, where he asks to be honoured exactly as the father is honoured, where he is worshiped in heaven as he sits on the throne of god, you conveniently ignore these and then pretend that nothing on the matter has been presented so far.
You said I ignored the verses that presented here, but I am also saying you ignored bible verses about Jesus worshipping God. So this means there are a lot of contradictions in the bible.
It seems christians follow everyone else especially paul but not Jesus (pbuh) when it comes to worshipping God.
And you said jesus asked to be honoured exaclty as the father is honoured, and jesus prostrated to the father, then why don't christians incorporate prostration as a part of their act of worship?
Reply

Ramadhan
04-18-2011, 08:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Actually we do. Why do you say that we don't? Do you think that Jesus taught that the only acceptable way to pray was prostrate like he did in the Garden of Gethsamane? It wasn't. In fact, that is the only time that it is recorded that Jesus ever prayed in that fashion, and I shouldn't be surprised that the reason it is mentioned is precisely because it was atypical. Indeed, the most common way for a first-century Jew to pray was on his feet. And Jesus never critiqued this as being wrong. Indeed, on at least one occassion he set that manner of praying forth as a model to be followed:
And in Luke's account of Jesus praying in the Garden he tells us that Jesus initially knelt down in prayer. But other than telling stories of people standing to pray, Jesus never once gives instruction regarding one's physical posture in prayer. He only comments on the attitude of one's heart. So, if you are focused on the physical outside position of the body and not the internal position of the soul, I would suggest that you are focused on something different than Jesus taught those who followed him to focus on.
Please show evidence where 1st century jews did not incorporate prostration as part of the act of worship.
As the video clips in the previous posts showed, even today orthodox jews prostrate as part of their regular prayers.

The problem with christianity is that the accounts of Jesus (pbuh) in the bible is very thin, as other gospels were rejected by nicea council and the disciples and the jews themselves did not record much of everyday sayings and accounts of Jesus (pbuh).

You said intention of the heart is the only thing that is important.
I dont agree with that, both action and intention are important.

Also, if christians so intent to follow jesus (pbuh), why dont they also try to follow his actions as closely as possible?

Reply

Ramadhan
04-18-2011, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No, 1st century Greek. But that's really a side issue.
So you are claiming the Jesus (pbuh) spoke to his disciples and followers in 1st century greek?
Please show us the evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
With regard to the topic of the thread, you asked for the passage describing Stephen in prayer in the original language it was spoken in and I have given it. The Acts 7, passage I quoted, wasn't Jesus speaking. It was Stephen, who was a Hellenized, Greek-speaking Jew who became a Christian and was selected to assist with ministering to the Greek-speaking widows of the fledgling Christian community. His story was witnessed and recorded by other Greek speakers. So, I think we can be confident that it accurately describes how Christianized Jews prayed.
Is this another evidence that christians follow everyone else (on this case stephen) in the act of worship, instead of jesus (pbuh)?
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Grace Seeker
04-18-2011, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
why don't christians incorporate prostration as a part of their act of worship?

Have you read this thread? This question has already been asked and answered multiple times. We do. We have even posted video examples.

You assert things that are not true as though they are and fail to see other things that are true as being so. As a result you have a messed up view of what Christianity is really like. But the fault isn't with Christianity, but with your inability to realize what is and isn't true.

Christian do pray by prostrating.

Christains also pray kneeling, sitting, standing, jogging, driving, parachuting, swimming, riding bicycles, and in a myriad other positions, indeed we are taught to pray without ceasing.

Jesus never taught his disciples a particular preferred posture for prayer. So, we are neither keeping nor breaking Jesus' instructions with regard how to pray when we pray.

Jesus' disciples did stand when they prayed. See Mark 11:25. Other Jews did as well. See Matthew 6:5.
You asked for a source on the prayer posture practiced by first-century Jews:
those Forms of Adoration described in the oldest portions of the Mishnah date from the pre-Christian time. About the time of Jesus there was a dispute between the Hillelites and the Shammaites concerning the proper attitude in which to recite the Shema'. The latter, in opposition to the former, who were indifferent as to posture, insisted that this prayer must be said standing in the morning; but that, in the evening, the aforementioned posture of solemn inclination was the appropriate one. This dispute lasted until nearly the end of the first Christian century (Mishnah Ber. i. 3). The chief prayer, the Eighteen Benedictions, was, however, always said standing (Mishnah Ber. v. 1; Gem. 30a). Hence the name "'Amidah" (Standing) for the Eighteen Benedictions.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz1JrcysJbq

The three principal postures of the body at prayer prevalent among Jews in the time of Jesus—standing, kneeling, and prostration—were adopted by the Christians, at times to the minutest details. Among the early Christians the most customary of all the Forms of Adoration was standing, adopted from the Jewish attitude during the "Eighteen Benedictions"—the prayer of prayers. This may be seen from the numerous illustrations of that time in Aringhi's "Roma Subterranea," Rome, 1651-59. Their outspread hands and their faces turned eastward correspond exactly with the Jewish customs already mentioned, namely, with the ancient practise of turning toward Palestine, which for Jews in Europe is eastward, and with the practise prevalent in all synagogues, of placing the ark in the eastern wall. The custom of kneeling, especially in private prayer, was likewise adopted by the earliest Christians (Luke, xxii. 41; Acts, vii. 60; ix. 40; xxi. 5; Eph. iii. 14, etc.) and became general (see "Hermæ Pastor," i. 1; Clemens Romanus, i. 48; Tertullian, "Ad Scapulam," iv.; Origen, "De Oratione," xxxi.). Less prevalent in the early days of Christianity was the prostration to the ground, employed only on special occasions (Socrates, "Historia Ecclesiastica," iii. 13, 17). How completely the Church ritual of early times was dominated by the Synagogue is shown by the usage prevalent in the Christian Church, and mentioned by Tertullian ("De Corona Militis," iii.), that on Sunday, and during the whole week of Pentecost, prayer was not to be said kneeling. The synagogal custom (minhag), as old as the first Christian century, omits the prostration on all festivals and semi-festivals (B. M. 59b).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz1JrdiuPdG

Jews today also pray in mulitple positions and postures, sometimes prostrated, but not always. Jews also pray both standing and seated during passover meals that I have attended.

Jesus prayed in multiple positions. It is specifically recorded that he prayed both face to the ground and also kneeling. Since Jesus disciples and other Jews are reported to have prayed standing, it is likely that Jesus did as well and it is not specifically reported because this was the most common way to pray (see above material from the Jewish Encyclopedia).




HOW MANY DIFFERENT POSTURES IN PRAYER ARE MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE?
1. Sitting (Acts 2:1-4 [Pentecost], Elijah under a broom tree - 1 Kings 19:4)
2. Dancing (2 Samuel 6:14)
3. Head bowed (Luke 18:13, Gen 24:26, Acts 21:5)
4. Publican smoke his breast (Luke 18:13)
5. Standing (Mark 11:25)
6. Prostrate on the ground (Joshua 5:14; Matthew 26:39 [Christ])
7. While lying sick (Psalm 4:4, 63:6; 2 Kings 20:1-3)
8. Kneeling (Daniel 6:10)
9. With hands raised (1 Timothy 2:8)
10. Elijah stretched his body over a widow's dead son
11. Stephen prayed while looking into heaven (Acts 7:54-60)
12. Peter prayed while walking on the water (Matthew 14:30)
13. While hanging on a cross (Luke 23:42)
14. Jonah prayed in the belly of a fish (Jonah 2:1). We can only imagine what bodily posture that would have required.
15. With eyes open (Christ - John 17:1, 11:41, Matthew 14:19)
16. Praying with their mouth moving (Hannah - 1 Samuel 1:12-13)
17. In stocks while in prison (Paul & Silas - Acts 16:24-25) 18. Hand laid on other people (First 7 deacons - Acts 6:5-6; Christ laying hands of little children - Matthew 19:13-15) 19. Clapping hands (Psalm 47:1)
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-18-2011, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
So you are claiming the Jesus (pbuh) spoke to his disciples and followers in 1st century greek?
Please show us the evidence.
YUP!!

It is commonly held that Jesus spoke only Aramaic. Contrary to this notion, Jesus used Aramaic or Greek according to the demand of the occasion. He regularly taught and ministered to Hellenized crowds and individuals in Greek. In fact, he conversed in Greek not only with Greek-speaking “Gentiles,” but also with Jews.

Two of Jesus’ siblings are the supposed writers of the New Testament books of Jude and James. Their Greek proficiency level reflects early language acquisition coupled with formal training. It would be unthinkable that Jesus’ brothers, with whom Jesus grew up, would be so proficient in Greek while Jesus was not. Of course some dispute there authorship as Jesus' actual brothers, but none dispute that they were written by 1st century Jews and in Greek. Like other Jews of the day, Jesus (and his brothers) grew up speaking Aramaic and Greek and being educated in both.

The Jews who gathered to hear Jesus in the synagogues and in the temple knew that he could teach also in Greek. It is in fact the Jews that inform us that Jesus did teach in Greek. The following is recorded about Jesus' activities in the Gospel of John: "Where does this man [Jesus] intend to go that we will not find him? Will he go to those scattered [among the] Greeks and teach the Greeks?" (John 7:35) The question the Jews are asking here is related to wherethey could find Jesus, not whether Jesus could teach in Greek. These first-hand eyewitnesses of Jesus’ teaching methods obviously knew that Jesus taught in Greek.

Jesus ministered extensively in Galilee where were many Greek-speaking traders and travelers. He taught in Decapolis, a Greek region. He preached also around Tyre and Sidon (Phoenicia), where Greek was necessary, and conversed with a Greek Syro-Phoenician woman. East of the Sea of Galilee, where Jesus ministered, the Gadarene swine owners came to beg Jesus to leave their region; and in Samaria, a region heavily Hellenized, he spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well. Near Caesaria-Philippi, another Greek region, Jesus spoke to the people at the foot of the mountain after his Transformation. During the Sermon on the Mount Jesus spoke to people from Decapolis and Perea, a region predominantly Hellenized, besides the mixed multitudes from Galilee, Jerusalem and Judea, Tyre and Sidon, and Idumaea. In Capernaum he conversed with the Roman centurion, as he did later with Pilate in the praetorium. It is hardly possible that Jesus communicated with such crowds or individuals in Aramaic. To put it another way, it is hardly possible that these Greek-speaking “Gentiles” spoke or even understood any Aramaic.

Jesus at times spoke even with Jews in Greek. Encounters Jesus had with Jewish individuals reveal that he used Greek more extensively than presumed. Semantic elements peculiar to Greek provide insights that are in harmony with the thought pattern and outcome of certain dialogues. Consider the following:

Peter and Jesus
In John 21:15-17 Jesus asks Peter, “Do you love me?” He asks this question twice, both times using the verb agapó (15, 16). Peter responds each time using a different verb, philéo—as if to say that he can only say he cares for Jesus but feels unworthy to say that he loves him. When Jesus asks Peter a third time he uses not the verb agapó (as he did the first two times), but Peter’s verb, philó. It is as though Jesus is saying, “Even so, Peter, do you care for me as a friend?” In Peter’s ears each question has a ring of forgiveness for each time he denied Jesus. But in the third question Peter sees Jesus willing to not only accept him as he is, but also to step down to his own expression of unworthiness and lift him up. Peter feels overwhelmed. The absence of this distinction in most translations leads the reader to surmise that Peter’s “grief” was caused by the fact that Jesus asked him the same question three times. While Jesus’ thrice-asked question was undoubtedly a caustic reminder to Peter of his denial of Jesus three times, the Greek text shows that it is how Jesus rephrased his question the third time that triggered Peter’s sorrowfulness (rather than the fact that he asked Peter the same question three times), a distinction not allowable in English or in Aramaic.

That Jesus and Peter could freely converse in Greek as they could in Aramaic does not sound remote to a thoroughly bilingual person. This situation is hardly different today from that in which two close friends, or brothers, both from Mexico but raised in a bilingual community in Los Angeles, end up at times conversing in their own hometown in Mexico intimately, and just as naturally, in English.
As a fisherman, Peter of necessity spoke Greek, the common language of the mixed multitudes in Galilee. Regarded as uneducated (Acts 4:13), he nevertheless proved to be an effective public speaker. On the Day of Pentecost we see Peter delivering an eloquent speech (Acts 2:14-36) to the multilingual multitudes (2:9-11) whose common language was Greek, and in Acts 10 preaching in the house of Cornelius, a Roman centurion. Had Peter been limited on these and other occasions to the use of Aramaic alone, his ministry—and fishing business—would have been seriously hampered, if not impossible.

Nicodemus and Jesus
John gives an account of a Pharisee named Nicodemus, an admirer of Jesus. Nicodemus is resolved to find out for himself once and for all who Jesus truly is, so he visits Jesus secretly by night and attempts to size up the Master (John 3). “Master,” Nicodemus says, “we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no man can do the wonders you do except God be with him.” Jesus brushes his visitor’s introductory accolades aside and immediately brings into the discussion a topic unrelated to Nicodemus’ inquiry, yet more relevant to his spiritual need: “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus says, “unless one is born from above (ánothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God”. The adverb ánothen comes from áno “above” + -qen –then, a suffix denoting origin of motion from a locality, hence, “from above.” In New Testament times ánothen also meant “(over) again,” “anew,” or “a second time.” It becomes clear from the rest of the dialogue that what Jesus relates to Nicodemus is the need for every person’s spiritual birth, a birth related to the Spirit from above and to heavenly things (above), specifically to the only one who “came down from heaven” —o ánothen erhómenos --“the-from-abovecoming one”.

Jesus’ use of ánothen takes place early in the dialogue—before Nicodemus has had ample opportunity to “test” Jesus and form a solid opinion of him. While it may sound logical that Nicodemus misunderstood Jesus (as some Bible translations intimate for lack of an obvious alternative), the likelihood cannot be discounted that Nicodemus’ misunderstanding was intentional, particularly because the opportunity for a witty wordplay appeared enticing. Jesus seemed to have rashly plunged himself into a quagmire with the words he had uttered—a welcome chance for an audacious Nicodemus: “How can a man, being old, be born?” Nicodemus says with an air of sanctimony. “Is it possible for him to enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”. Jesus patiently explains the need for every human being born from the womb (water) to be born also of the spirit. But when Nicodemus makes a thwarted attempt to challenge Jesus a third time—albeit awe-struck by who he had probably by now found Jesus to be—and groping for words, mutters, “How can these things be?”, he receives a jolting exclamation of surprise from Jesus, who tells him that as a leading teacher of Israel he should know better than to be puzzled by such truths. Nicodemus was a well-educated rabbinic Pharisee. Like Paul, and judging by his Greek name Nikóthimos “people’s victor,” which is suggestive of strong Hellenistic influence, he was a Hellenized Pharisee; and, as such, most capable of an instantaneous linguistic twist in his conversation with Jesus. Jesus used this “people’s victor” to reveal insights that hinged on a bifurcated Greek word that allowed the dialogue to take the double path it did.

I suspect that Jesus even spoke Greek from the cross. I know you are familiar with Jesus' famous cry from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). What Matthew reports there is actually a quotation from Psalm 22 in Hebrew: “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” But "Eli, Eli" sounds very similar to "ilía, ilía" which is the Greek name for the prophet Elijah. And lo and behold, this is exactly what Matthew reports that some people misunderstood Jesus to have been crying out. Now, why would they have misunderstood Jesus quoting a famous Psalm in Hebrew? Because many (not all) of the people gathered around the cross were more accustomed to hearing Greek. Who were these bystanders, whose ears were so attuned to Greek but who also knew about the prophet Elijah, except Greeks or Greek-speaking individuals that mingled with Jews?

Lastly, Jesus gathers all of his disciples to him before his ascension and commissions them to go into all the world. That world was a Greek-speaking world. If they only spoke Aramaic they could not have left Palestine. Indeed they would have been virtually restricted to Jerusalem and the area immediately around it. The only way they could even hope to attempt the mission that Jesus had set before them was if they spoke Greek.

Now, I'm not saying that Jesus always spoke Greek. There are enough Aramaic words that are used in the Greek text of the New Testament to know that there were also times when either he or his disciples spoke Aramaic. But there is likewise no doubt that they also spoke Greek. My personal guess is that not only were they bi-lingual, they might have been tri-lingual. And then Jesus in his ministry, being thoroughly multi-lingual, used Aramaic or Greek, Hebrew or Latin based on the demand of the occasion. And though it may not always be possible to determine what words of Jesus in the Greek text were spoken in Greek and what words were translated from Aramaic, a safe way to hear all of Jesus’ sayings is the way they were recorded: in Greek.
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Sol Invictus
04-18-2011, 10:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
There are so many holes in your argument, because it is clear you only want to hear your own voice and the voices of early rabbis and priests and unknown scribes, instead of what Jesus (pbuh) said and commanded. Also it is clear that you want to obfuscate the core of the matter (ie. the authenticity of what Jesus actually said) with a lot of words and argument.
So let's see if among the gospels we can still uncover some truth:

"Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6)
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24)

From the verses it is clear that the message of Jesus was intended only for the israelites, not for the greeks, neither for the europeans.
naidamar, they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and in this case this is completely true:

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” --- Matthew 28:16-20 NIV

here i've quoted from the very book you claim does not teach the universality of the gospel. until christ was ressurected, the gospel was to remain in israel but once he had paid for the sins of the world, he commanded his disciples to spread the message to the entire world. once again, during this time greek would have been the language which the majority of people would have understood and this is why the gospels were written in greek. here are other passages which specifically say that the gospel is meant for the whole world:

44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; 46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 Ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. --- Luke 24:44-49 ASV

4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me: 5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence. 6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority. 8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. --- Acts 1:4-8 ASV

so we see that when we are actually unbiased in presenting the evidence from the bible, the points actually disprove the muslim position. notice how many times the muslim argument has been disproven when we simply let the bible speak for itself?

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
You said I ignored the verses that presented here, but I am also saying you ignored bible verses about Jesus worshipping God. So this means there are a lot of contradictions in the bible.
It seems christians follow everyone else especially paul but not Jesus (pbuh) when it comes to worshipping God.
who says that i ignored those verses. in fact i agree with them whole heartedly. the christian claim is that christ is both god and man and as man he submitted himself to the law and indeed prayed to the father yet as god he would have no need to do so. any verse you bring up which show that christ worships the father fits in nicely with the christian claim that christ is both god and man but the verses where jesus is outright worshiped by the hosts of heaven as he sits on the very throne of god cannot be made to fit your understanding that jesus is only man. so no, it is only you who ignores the verses that disprove your point. there is no verse you can bring from the bible that will disprove the christian understanding for we believe the bible as a whole and don't just present parts of it (as you tried to do with the matter of the worship of christ and the universality of the gospel).

that said, it has been shown that jesus prayed in a variety of ways and that the prophets prayed in a variety of ways and christians incorporate this in their worship. there is no problem with that at all. it simply is you who once again ignores all these various ways in which prayer has been directed towards god.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
And even then, say the jews of israel communicated to each other in 1st century greek (instead of either aramaic or ancient hebrew), do you really not think that after 4 centuries, the meanings of words shifted?
please give us evidence to back up your claim that the koine greek within the gospels testify to a 4th century rendition rather than a 1st century one. please cite for us passages within the bible and show us which 1st century greek word should have been used instead of the 4th century one. furthermore, it is not an either or thing. simply because they were israelites would not mean that they couldn't speak greek as well. i am not french nor german but at one time i could speak four languages fluently (i've since lost my german and now can only speak 3 languages) and i could very well write in these languages instead of my mother tongue if i indeed wanted to reach the largest possible audience. hence clearly, your point proves nothing.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Just a side question: you keep saying "muslim deity", so does it mean that Allah is not god?
This question may not be appropriate for this thread, but it is my curiosity as you keep preferring that word instead of god.
i use this term because i do not believe that the manner in which god is presented in the qur'an is accurate at all. i try not to directly call the muslim deity allah (and when i do it is only to be taken as the name of the god of the qur'an and not as an acceptance of the belief that the allah in the qur'an is the true god) seeing as this means god and i don't believe that the muslim deity is the one true god at all. i certainly don't know about the christians you've met though i'm sure that we both can say a lot of things about the beliefs of people whom we've supposedly met.
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UsayIsaIsayGod
04-18-2011, 04:59 PM
Jesus:

Mark 11

25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
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gmcbroom
05-04-2011, 08:34 PM
I htink UsayIsaIsayGod,

Just illustrated the point that biblically speaking, it may not be so much what position you're in when you pray, just that you pray.

Peace be with you
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Iconodule
10-12-2011, 04:39 PM
Orthodox Christians prostrate regularly in their worship. The only time when prostration is not done is on Sunday.
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