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GuestFellow
03-30-2011, 08:14 PM
:sl:

I have heard people say you cannot be racist to Muslims because Muslims are not a race. I agree. I do not see Muslims as a race. I suppose this logic applies to all religions. You cannot be racist to a Sikh, Hindi, Buddhist, etc.

What about Jews? People that hate Jews are considered to be racist. In fact, hatred towards Jews is considered to be anti-semitism. Why is hatred towards Jews seen as racist and have their own special name? Even Sikh people are considered to be a race but do not have a special term to describe racism.

Sikhs and Jews already have full protection from incitement because the courts regard them as distinct races. But Christians, Muslims and others have not been given the same protection because they do not constitute a single ethnic block. Northern Ireland has its own laws to deal with sectarian discrimination between Protestants and Catholics.
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Sol Invictus
03-30-2011, 08:47 PM
well because anti-semitism refers to hatred of this semitic people---the ethnic group and not necessarily the religion. there is a distinct race known as jews, there isn't such a thing as a distinct race known as muslims, christians etc.
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Cabdullahi
03-30-2011, 08:56 PM
what did the white man do before his blood test?

he studied
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GuestFellow
03-30-2011, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
well because anti-semitism refers to hatred of this semitic people---the ethnic group and not necessarily the religion. there is a distinct race known as jews, there isn't such a thing as a distinct race known as muslims, christians etc.
Does not semitism include some Arab people too? I've heard the Palestinians are semitic too.

Why are Jews seen as a race? They believe in God and follow a religious scripture. Is this not supposed to be a religion?

I find this confusing.

Originally Posted by Abdullahii
what did the white man do before his blood test?

he studied
:sl:

I'm not sure what you mean here.
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Maryan0
03-30-2011, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
well because anti-semitism refers to hatred of this semitic people---the ethnic group and not necessarily the religion. there is a distinct race known as jews, there isn't such a thing as a distinct race known as muslims, christians etc.
Are Ashkenazi Jews the same race as Falasha jews?
Salam
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Sol Invictus
03-30-2011, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
( a ) Does not semitism include some Arab people too? I've heard the Palestinians are semitic too.

( b ) Why are Jews seen as a race? They believe in God and follow a religious scripture. Is this not supposed to be a religion?

I find this confusing.
( a ) i don't disagree with that but the term was coined by the german wilhelm marr in 1879 to designate the anti-jewish hatred that was prevalent in europe during his day. it is a misnomer but there are many such cases in the english language (as with all others i suppose) where a certain term simply becomes the norm.

( b ) because the term 'jew' refers to an ethnic group as well as to an adherer of the jewish religion. one can be a jew without being ethnically jewish while one cannot be an arab without being ethnically arab.
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Sol Invictus
03-30-2011, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
Are Ashkenazi Jews the same race as Falasha jews?
Salam
both these groups compromise the "jewish people" and as such they are indeed the same race. your very question even implies this by terming both these groups as jews. just because jews constitute a single race does not mean that there aren't any distinctions within this people. though, you will note that distinctions within a single race are far greater than those between two different races.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-31-2011, 01:00 AM
Wa alaykum us-Salaam
I think it just another silly way of propagating Zionism to try make people feel sorry for them.
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Maryan0
03-31-2011, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
both these groups compromise the "jewish people" and as such they are indeed the same race. your very question even implies this by terming both these groups as jews. just because jews constitute a single race does not mean that there aren't any distinctions within this people. though, you will note that distinctions within a single race are far greater than those between two different races.
That doesnt make sense. I think you need to look up the definition of race. Both the groups I mentioned are completely different race wise. I'm closer to a Falasha Jew as an east African than an Ashkenazi Jew is. and I termed them both Jews because they are followers of the Jewish religion although many of the Falasha jews converted to Christianity.
There may have been an original Jewish race that may have primarily lived in one region and later spread but I don't think racism applies to Jewish people today becasue they're not a race.
The last bolded part is true but I dont believe it really applies in this case. Whether race is fallacious or not I think it's obvious that you can't classify the Falasha jews and Ashkenazi jews as the same group. They dont even live in close proximity. One group is African and the other is traditionally European. The only common denominator is that they both follow the Jewish religion.
Salam
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Sol Invictus
03-31-2011, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
That doesnt make sense. I think you need to look up the definition of race. Both the groups I mentioned are completely different race wise. I'm closer to a Falasha Jew as an east African than an Ashkenazi Jew is. and I termed them both Jews because they are followers of the Jewish religion although many of the Falasha jews converted to Christianity.
There may have been an original Jewish race that may have primarily lived in one region and later spread but I don't think racism applies to Jewish people today becasue they're not a race.
The last bolded part is true but I dont believe it really applies in this case. Whether race is fallacious or not I think it's obvious that you can't classify the Falasha jews and Ashkenazi jews as the same group. They dont even live in close proximity. One group is African and the other is traditionally European. The only common denominator is that they both follow the Jewish religion.
Salam
while i did know of the ashkenazi jews, i did not look into the matter of the falasha jews (though now that i checked i did know of them but under a different name) and even though i do believe that there is more concerning the matter, i'm perfectly willing to go with your definition because it still wouldn't change my point at all. let me explain. there are two ways to define a jew, someone who is ethnically jewish and as such belonging to one of the four semite peoples, and one who is a practitioner of judaism. the jewish people who are ethnically jewish are in fact a race (i would welcome any argument to the contrary with as to how a distinct group whose members consist of one of the four semitic people are not in fact a race and how the repercussions of such an argument might apply to the arabs for example) and as such anti-semitism does indeed apply to this category of persons. your whole point is predicated on a jew merely being a practitioner of judaism yet the fact that there exists such a thing as being ethnically jewish blows your whole point out of the water (no offense). in order to make your case you have to show that the semitic people known as jews don't exist as a distinct race (this would be quite contrary to modern scholarship i might add) and not merely that intermarriage creates a subset of people whom are difficult to classify.

note: i don't believe that falasha jews are semites (if you can bring any evidence to the contrary this would be appreciated) and are jewish in virtue of being adherers of the jewish religion (though they did originate from jewish intermarriage with other peoples). as such, i have to concede none of your points. once again, the beta israel (the name under which i know them) may have jewish ancestors who were semites but this does not mean that they are semites and as such ethnically jewish. anti-semitism wouldn't necessarily apply to this group and when it would it would only be in the criticism of their religion.
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Maryan0
03-31-2011, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
while i did know of the ashkenazi jews, i did not look into the matter of the falasha jews (though now that i checked i did know of them but under a different name) and even though i do believe that there is more concerning the matter, i'm perfectly willing to go with your definition because it still wouldn't change my point at all. let me explain. there are two ways to define a jew, someone who is ethnically jewish and as such belonging to one of the four semite peoples, and one who is a practitioner of judaism. the jewish people who are ethnically jewish are in fact a race (i would welcome any argument to the contrary with as to how a distinct group whose members consist of one of the four semitic people are not in fact a race and how the repercussions of such an argument might apply to the arabs for example) and as such anti-semitism does indeed apply to this category of persons. your whole point is predicated on a jew merely being a practitioner of judaism yet the fact that there exists such a thing as being ethnically jewish blows your whole point out of the water (no offense). in order to make your case you have to show that the semitic people known as jews don't exist as a distinct race (this would be quite contrary to modern scholarship i might add) and not merely that intermarriage creates a subset of people whom are difficult to classify.

note: i don't believe that falasha jews are semites (if you can bring any evidence to the contrary this would be appreciated) and are jewish in virtue of being adherers of the jewish religion (though they did originate from jewish intermarriage with other peoples). as such, i have to concede none of your points. once again, the beta israel (the name under which i know them) may have jewish ancestors who were semites but this does not mean that they are semites and as such ethnically jewish. anti-semitism wouldn't necessarily apply to this group and when it would it would only be in the criticism of their religion.
I said this:
There may have been an original Jewish race that may have primarily lived in one region and later spread but I don't think racism applies to Jewish people today becasue they're not a race.
Jewish people today cannot be classified as a race and therefore racism does not apply to them. Arabs for that matter are not technically a race either since the majority of Arabs today are arabized Arabs with Yemeni's being the oldest arabs. A sudanese arab is not the same as a lebanese arab, and a morrocan arab is not the same as a Gulf Arab. They share a common language and for the most part a common religion.
and if your going to argue that the Falasha Jews are not jewish because they're not semitic than you need to know that the many people do not consider the Ashkenazi Jews as semitic either. But for the sake of argument are the Mizrahi Jews (which are the ones who reside primarily in the arab nations) the same race as Ashkenazi Jews?
The point I'm trying to make is that Jewish people today are far too diverse a group to be considered one race, and if you acknowledge that there exists a group that are ethnically Jewish and therefore a race. Than racism applies to only this group not to all people who claim to be Jewish today because they are... ethnically diverse.
Salam
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Ramadhan
03-31-2011, 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
The point I'm trying to make is that Jewish people today are far too diverse a group to be considered one race, and if you acknowledge that there exists a group that are ethnically Jewish and therefore a race. Than racism applies to only this group not to all people who claim to be Jewish today because they are... ethnically diverse. Salam

Very good point.

It seems to me that jews (adherence to judaism) are given special treatment by giving them the official protection status of a single race, while we all know that jews are racially diverse as it has been proven (askhenazi, sephardic and falashi are not the same race, there are even Indonesian jews who are totally mixed race).
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Sol Invictus
03-31-2011, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
The point I'm trying to make is that Jewish people today are far too diverse a group to be considered one race, and if you acknowledge that there exists a group that are ethnically Jewish and therefore a race. Than racism applies to only this group not to all people who claim to be Jewish today because they are... ethnically diverse.
Salam
if you acknowledge that there is such a thing as an ethnic jew then your point towards race is rendered moot. my point is not about who is an ethnic jew and who isn't but rather that such a thing exists (you'll note that it was merely you who tried to show who was jewish and who was not while i argued that ethnic jews did exist). you seem to agree that it does and as such you agree to my point. you will note that anti-semitism also contains a religious/cultural element and as such the hatred of none ethnic jews because of their jewish practises would fall along these lines. furthermore, one need not at all be correct concerning a person's ethnicity in order to hate them. i could very well dislike a chinese individual because i might have a deep hatred for the japanese and have confused this chinese individual for a japanese person. either way i would still be engaged in racism against the japanese race even though my hate would in that case be directed towards a chinese person. in the same way is hate against ashkenazi jews directed at their perceived jewishness no matter whether one considers them as belonging to the semite people or not. as such, this is indeed still anti-semitism and my point stands. but this discussion was rather fun (no joke).
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Maryan0
03-31-2011, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
if you acknowledge that there is such a thing as an ethnic jew then your point towards race is rendered moot. my point is not about who is an ethnic jew and who isn't but rather that such a thing exists (you'll note that it was merely you who tried to show who was jewish and who was not while i argued that ethnic jews did exist). you seem to agree that it does and as such you agree to my point. you will note that anti-semitism also contains a religious/cultural element and as such the hatred of none ethnic jews because of their jewish practises would fall along these lines. furthermore, one need not at all be correct concerning a person's ethnicity in order to hate them. i could very well dislike a chinese individual because i might have a deep hatred for the japanese and have confused this chinese individual for a japanese person. either way i would still be engaged in racism against the japanese race even though my hate would in that case be directed towards a chinese person. in the same way is hate against ashkenazi jews directed at their perceived jewishness no matter whether one considers them as belonging to the semite people or not. as such, this is indeed still anti-semitism and my point stands. but this discussion was rather fun (no joke).
If you also consider Japanese people a race than I don't believe we have the same definition of race. This topic was in reference to all Jewish people being considered a race not just one group that are ethnically jewish. and not all people who refer to themselves as Jewish today are the same race. and I only brought up that Ashkenazi jews are not considered semitic because you said the falasha jews are not jewish because they are not semitic.
Salam
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Maryan0
03-31-2011, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar


Very good point.

It seems to me that jews (adherence to judaism) are given special treatment by giving them the official protection status of a single race, while we all know that jews are racially diverse as it has been proven (askhenazi, sephardic and falashi are not the same race, there are even Indonesian jews who are totally mixed race).
:sl:
Exactly. Race may be a social construct but I think anyone with eyes can tell all the groups mentioned are not from the same ethnic group nevermind the same race.
Salam
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