what do christians & jews believe in?

[YM Usrah Umar]

obvious facts are:

christians

trinity, bible jesus as god etc etc

jews

moses as ther prohet, torah, uzair as son of god etc etc

could sum1 up quickly (bullet points or whatevr) what those faiths beleive in mainly, smaller things can be discussed also

but i was also wanting to ask....was i heard a story that the jews believe that 1 of the prophets had a fight with allah and that prophet beat allah (astaghfurullah......too too far) and allah said to him "i wasnt fully prepared, next time i will defeat you" (im sorry what? lol), this is what i heard but can sum1 tell me if that story is true and who it was etc?

and also the jews messiah is dajjal? is that correct?

[YM Usrah Umar]

lets jus rename this thread...wat we find offensive from christianity and judiasm? jazaks

[Ubeyde]

Dajjal is the Messiah of the Jews.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them, i.e. Prophet Muhamad Sallahu Alayhi Wasalam, but they reject him as prophet, so they still sit in wait for him.

I thought Jews believe that Musa Alayhi Salam was the son of God or something.. I read that in a very knowledgeable book, Stories of the Prophets.

Allah Alim.. Salaam

[YM Usrah Umar]

Dajjal is the Messiah of the Jews.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them, i.e. Prophet Muhamad Sallahu Alayhi Wasalam, but they reject him as prophet, so they still sit in wait for him.

I thought Jews believe that Musa Alayhi Salam was the son of God or something.. I read that in a very knowledgeable book, Stories of the Prophets.

Allah Alim.. Salaam

ok but how do the jews see dajjal as ther messiah? is it writtin in their books that they he will do this, looks like this, do this etc etc?

i dont think musa (as) but uzair (as) tho was mentioned as son of god (astaghfar)

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[YM Usrah Umar]

im not hating on christianity or judiasm, i jus want to point out things that we dont accept.

heres the story of uzair being son of god (from stories of the prophets)

and there was only one copy of the Torah, which was hidden by Sarukha. He buried
it in the days of Nabuchadnezzar in a place none but Ezra knows." Ezra led the people to the
hidden place and took out that copy of the Torah. Its leaves had rotted, and the book itself
crumpled.

Ezra sat under the shade of a tree surrounded by the children of Israel and copied out the Torah
for them from that script. Henceforth, the Jews said that Ezra is the son of Allah, for two
evidences which came down from Heaven and for his copying the torah and for his fighting the
cause of the Israelites.

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them,

I would like to offer a Christian perspective in answer to this statement you have made: as a Christian, I am not waiting on a Prophet from Arabia; rather, I wait for Jesus/Isa to return in the clouds of glory from Heaven.

[siam]

some of what is being said here seems to be based on inadequate knowledge....I hope that we Muslims will have the decency to at least seek accurate knowledge of the others beliefs...ignorance and or prejudice is wrong.......

[YM Usrah Umar]

some of what is being said here seems to be based on inadequate knowledge....I hope that we Muslims will have the decency to at least seek accurate knowledge of the others beliefs...ignorance and or prejudice is wrong.......

like what? most stuff mentioned here is true tho and common knowledge

[Woodrow]

like what? most stuff mentioned here is true tho and common knowledge

One error we make in speaking about christian beliefs is that much of what we speak of is Catholicism. the Catholic beliefs differ considerably from most of the other denominations.

Most of the Christian denominations of today came about after the 15th Century and most of the Bible only denominations (about 30,000 to date) came about after the 1850s.

We are somewhat out of date in understanding Christianity as to what it has become today.

[YieldedOne]

Woodrow:
One error we make in speaking about christian beliefs is that much of what we speak of is Catholicism. the Catholic beliefs differ considerably from most of the other denominations.

VERY aptly stated, Woodrow. I'd been noticing that for some time, per much of the argumentation I've experienced on this board from Muslim brothers and sisters seems to have been directed at Roman Catholic beliefs...with NO consideration of Eastern Christian tradition at all. Forget the post-Reformation Western "Bible-only" denominations. That's completely unhelpful when it comes to knowing about historical Christian belief, tradition, and doctrine. Without understanding Eastern Christianity (and Western--Roman Catholic), a person CANNOT get a full grasp of Christianity.

[Danah]

I would like to know more about Judaism since we already have lots of threads for Christianity.

I hope our Jewish members will post here.

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

I would like to know more about Judaism since we already have lots of threads for Christianity.

I hope our Jewish members will post here.

I do hope so as well.

[Woodrow]

I would like to know more about Judaism since we already have lots of threads for Christianity.

I hope our Jewish members will post here.

At the moment I do not think we have any Jewish Members except for one who may be, but I am not certain.

[Ramadhan]

I would like to offer a Christian perspective in answer to this statement you have made: as a Christian, I am not waiting on a Prophet from Arabia; rather, I wait for Jesus/Isa to return in the clouds of glory from Heaven.

You might be glad to know that muslims are also waiting for the same thing: we are waiting for Jesus (pbuh) to return to earth as al maseeh.
So Jesus (pbuh) will still be circumcised, he will be fasting for a full month, he will not drink and eat swine, he pray while prostrating on the ground, he will give zakat.

Sounds familiar?

Oh yeah, a billion of muslims are also like that.

:)

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

You might be glad to know that muslims are also waiting for the same thing: we are waiting for Jesus (pbuh) to return to earth as al maseeh.

'Al Maseeh' meaning 'The Messiah' correct? That is wonderful, I am glad we both await Jesus. :)

So Jesus (pbuh) will still be circumcised, he will be fasting for a full month, he will not drink and eat swine, he pray while prostrating on the ground, he will give zakat. Sounds familiar? Oh yeah, a billion of muslims are also like that. :)

Intriguing, I am afraid I have no comment as to that. But I love to learn. So does this mean that you believe Jesus will return at the end of a Ramadan?

[YieldedOne]

Hmm...Unlike many Muslims, Christians don't believe that Jesus will come back after over 2000 years of being with God...just to DIE and become worm food after he establishes the Kingdom of God on earth for about 40 years.

Nope.

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks. Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively)

I mean, really. Isn't that a bit weird? For Jesus to be alive for over 2000 years in heaven with God only to die on earth after 40 years of ruling? How anti-climactic. PLUS it seems that Islamic eschatology says that Muhammad will be the raised FIRST on the day of universal bodily resurrection. So, Jesus lives for over 2000 years in God's Presence as God's Messiah and RULES as God's leader (all that time of which Muhammad is and remains dead)..but then after he dies, he's NOT even raised first??

This really just seems weird to me, in a way...

[Danah]

'Al Maseeh' meaning 'The Messiah' correct? That is wonderful, I am glad we both await Jesus. :)
Intriguing, I am afraid I have no comment as to that. But I love to learn. So does this mean that you believe Jesus will return at the end of a Ramadan?

I think you need to watch this video:


long one but it worth watching as it will clarify what Muslims think of prophet Jesus (peace be upon him)

[YM Usrah Umar]

Hmm...Unlike many Muslims, Christians don't believe that Jesus will come back after over 2000 years of being with God...just to DIE and become worm food after he establishes the Kingdom of God on earth for about 40 years.

Nope.

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks. [/I]Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively)

I mean, really. Isn't that a bit weird? For Jesus to be alive for over 2000 years in heaven with God only to die on earth after 40 years of ruling? How anti-climactic. PLUS it seems that Islamic eschatology says that Muhammad will be the raised FIRST on the day of universal bodily resurrection. So, Jesus lives for over 2000 years in God's Presence as God's Messiah and RULES as God's leader (all that time of which Muhammad is and remains dead)..but then after he dies, he's NOT even raised first??

This really just seems weird to me, in a way...

so what dude? this is up to allah (swt), also a sign to humanity. isa(as) will come down and will confirm which is the right religion

Intriguing, I am afraid I have no comment as to that. But I love to learn. So does this mean that you believe Jesus will return at the end of a Ramadan?

not in the end of ramadhan i dont think, can i ask where did u get the ramadhan part from my friend?

Woodrow:
One error we make in speaking about christian beliefs is that much of what we speak of is Catholicism. the Catholic beliefs differ considerably from most of the other denominations.

VERY aptly stated, Woodrow. I'd been noticing that for some time, per much of the argumentation I've experienced on this board from Muslim brothers and sisters seems to have been directed at Roman Catholic beliefs...with NO consideration of Eastern Christian tradition at all. Forget the post-Reformation Western "Bible-only" denominations. That's completely unhelpful when it comes to knowing about historical Christian belief, tradition, and doctrine. Without understanding Eastern Christianity (and Western--Roman Catholic), a person CANNOT get a full grasp of Christianity.

im sorry what? i thought it was only protestant and catholic? is eastern catholic protestant? if yes or no what do they believe in?

[YieldedOne]

YM Usrah Umar:
im sorry what? i thought it was only protestant and catholic? is eastern catholic protestant? if yes or no what do they believe in?

Protestantism began as Martin Luther's attempt to REFORM Roman Catholicism. He never intended to separate from the RCC faith (but it happened later anyways). But neither Protestantism nor Roman Catholicism are what Eastern Christianity is.

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

not in the end of ramadhan i dont think, can i ask where did u get the ramadhan part from my friend?

I am not so certain myself, I am fairly uneducated in Islam theology still. That's why I came here! :)

[YM Usrah Umar]

YM Usrah Umar:
im sorry what? i thought it was only protestant and catholic? is eastern catholic protestant? if yes or no what do they believe in?

Protestantism began as Martin Luther's attempt to REFORM Roman Catholicism. He never intended to separate from the RCC faith (but it happened later anyways). But neither Protestantism nor Roman Catholicism are what is.

so now thers protestant, catholic and eastern christianity? either wya my friend...same bible...same teachings no? if not, what differs? explain in the simplest terms to me because i am abit stupid lol

I am not so certain myself, I am fairly uneducated in Islam theology still. That's why I came here! :)

oh lol ok, nah he wont come in ramadhan but he will come back down sometime tho.

[YM Usrah Umar]

oh also the day of sabbath for the jews, do they still hav to lik not work on that day or even help someone for that matter? do they still do that?

[YM Usrah Umar]

heres what the jews believe about their messiah (which is dajjal and heres why)

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

[YM Usrah Umar]

# Reinstatement of the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-27)

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Cool posts sir. I would like to add that it is my understanding that the False Messiah (Dajjal as you would say) will be of the Jews as well.

[Woodrow]

so now thers protestant, catholic and eastern Christianity? either wya my friend...same bible...same teachings no? if not, what differs? explain in the simplest terms to me because i am abit stupid lol


.

In the largest groupings which are Protestants, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox the main differences are in Church canons, rituals and doctrine. In all of Christianity only the Catholics follow the Pope and the Vatican. The difference in the Bibles is the Protestant Bibles contain a few less books.

while the majority of Christians belong to one the large groupings, the majority of the 40,000 + denominations are the Bible only churches and are not associated with mainstream Christianity. Each of the churches seem to follow the bible as interpretative by the church pastor.

You also have the non-trinity christian denominations that many Christians do not consider to be Christian these are:

Jehovah Witness
Unitarian
Mormon

and a few others.

For the moment and for simplicity. If you are speaking of The Pope, the Vatican, Rome, praying to Mary and Statues you are speaking only of the Roman Catholics. None of that applies to any others who call themselves Christian.

However to some extent the Eastern Orthodox do use statues and some veneration of Mary.

Over half of the world's Christians have no connection with The Vatican, the Pope or Rome. It is only Roman Catholics who follow the Pope.

[YM Usrah Umar]

jazaks woodrow.

found this regarding sabbath, is it still applied to this day, so even todays sabbath you cant help any1 whatsoever?

Jesus Does Not Observe the Sabbath
Jesus grew up to manhood. It was Sabbath, a day of complete rest: no fire could be lit or
extinguished nor could females plait their hair. Moses (pbuh) had commanded that Saturday be
dedicated to the worship of Allah. However, the wisdom behind the Sabbath and its spirit had
gone, and only the letter remained in the Jews' hearts. Also, they thought that Sabbath was kept in
heaven, and that the People of Israel had been chosen by Allah only to observe the Sabbath.
They made a hundred things unlawful on Saturday even self-defense or calling a doctor to save a
patient who was in bad condition. This is how their life was branded by such hypocrisy. Although
the Pharisees were guardians of the law, they were ready to sell it when their interests were
involved so as to obtain personal gains. There was, for example, a rule which prohibited a journey
of more than one thousand yards on the Sabbath day. What do we expect of the Pharisees in this
case? The day before, they transferred their food and drink from their homes two thousand yards
away and erected a temporary house so that from tthey could travel a further thousand yards on
the Sabbath day.

Jesus was on his way to the temple. Although it was the Sabbath, he reached out his hand to pick
two pieces of fruit to feed a hungry child. This was considered to be a violation of the Sabbath
law. He made a fire for the old women to keep themselves warm from the freezing air. Another
violation. He went to the temple and looked around. There were twenty thousand Jewish priests
registered there who earned their living from the temple. The rooms of he temple were full of them.

[gmcbroom]

Woodrow, is fairly accurate in his post save in a few areas. The Catholic Church is made up of 23 distinct ritual churches all of which are Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church just has the distinction of being the largest, and is the one in which The Bishop of Rome, ie Pope, comes from as the Chair of Peter it is the seat upon which the leader of the Catholic Church sits. The Latin Church is what the Roman Church used to be called in the past. However that changed in the 16th century when the Anglican Church used the phrase the roman catholic church as a way to distinguish between the two as a derogatory term. The label simply stuck.

It should be noted the the Catholic Church has gone through a few schisms. The first of which ocurred around the 400's and from it the Occidental Orthodox Church (Miaphisites/Monophites) came into being think Coptics Orthodox, and Church of the East. Then the famous schism of 1054 where the Eastern Orthodox Church came into being.

Now some of those that came back into communion with the Catholic Church retained their distinct traditions, their theology was just amended to bring it back to Catholic Theology. That's why you have Coptic Catholic Churches, as well as Russian, and Byzantine Catholic Churches.

The Orthodox whether Occidental, Russian, or Eastern all have valid Apostolic Succession (the laying on of hands that can be traced all the way back to the Apostles), Sacred Tradition (Bishop,Priest,and Deacon, as the ecclesial rank structure) , and Sacred Scripture ie the Old and New Testament (though the amount of Old and New Testament books varies depending on which group you belong too anywhere from 76 to 88). They all claim to be Catholic as Catholic simply means universal.

The Orthodox has the Bishop as the head of the churches as the Catholic Church does too yet the difference comes down to the Chair of Peter ie Pope. They recognize him as the leader of the Latin Church and a fellow Bishop yet they don't see him as the Leader of all the Catholic Churches. It's complicated. Because where the Bishop goes there goes The Church so the Orthodox do have a valid point.

Yet Jesus gave the keys to bind and loose to Peter and upon him he built his Church. So, depending on which camp you belong too, If your Catholic the Orthodox broke Communion and if your Orthodox the Catholics broke communion. The Orthodox claim that the Reformation is proof that the Catholic Church is schismatic. The Catholic Church points to the lack of cohesion and nationalization of the Orthodox Churches as proof that there schismatic. As you can see its complicated.

Peace be with you

[gmcbroom]

Also concerning Mary catholics, orthodox, and even some anglicans venerate her. We don't worship her as a Goddess as there is only one God. We venerate her as a saint for it was said all generations will call her blessed. As for the her being immaculate that is because she is seen as a living ark. For just as the Ark of the Convenant housed the the ten commandments or word of God ie ten commandments; she did the same in giving birth to Jesus Christ who is the living Word.

Peace be with you

[siam]

heres what the jews believe about their messiah (which is dajjal and heres why)

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* .........

@ YM --- I think we should be more careful about making statements and try to seek knowledge......
Islamophobic sites claim that the Mahdi is the ANTI-CHRIST.......when we make similar statements about others---what does it say about us?

The Jews have a term called Olam Haba that speaks of the "world to come"---here is what Maimonides (a Jewish Rabbi) described it as....

"The messianic age is when Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Isreal. The messiah will be a very great King. ...His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him...It will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword agaisnt nation....the messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by a messiah, a righteous and honest king."

perhaps seeking knowledge about Judaism from Jewish sites would be more appropriate?

[gmcbroom]

I agree with Siam.

[YM Usrah Umar]

I think we should be more careful about making statements and try to seek knowledge......
Islamophobic sites claim that the Mahdi is the ANTI-CHRIST.......when we make similar statements about others, what does it say about us?

ok your right about that in a way but i just see it the way it is bro...if u actually read about our dajjal...compare that to what the jews say about their messiah...it actually go's along, like i said i didnt wanna offend any1 in this thread

[YM Usrah Umar]

The Jews have a term called Olam Haba that speaks of the "world to come"---here is what Maimonides (a Jewish Rabbi) described it as...."The messianic age is when Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Isreal. The messiah will be a very great King. ...His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him...It will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword agaisnt nation....the messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by a messiah, a righteous and honest king."

perhaps seeking knowledge about Judaism from Jewish sites would be more appropriate?

^^ this was also mentioned and ur right about it...but i took the various verses that we can relate to now.

[Zafran]

Hmm...Unlike many Muslims, Christians don't believe that Jesus will come back after over 2000 years of being with God...just to DIE and become worm food after he establishes the Kingdom of God on earth for about 40 years.

Nope.

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks. Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively)

I mean, really. Isn't that a bit weird? For Jesus to be alive for over 2000 years in heaven with God only to die on earth after 40 years of ruling? How anti-climactic. PLUS it seems that Islamic eschatology says that Muhammad will be the raised FIRST on the day of universal bodily resurrection. So, Jesus lives for over 2000 years in God's Presence as God's Messiah and RULES as God's leader (all that time of which Muhammad is and remains dead)..but then after he dies, he's NOT even raised first??

This really just seems weird to me, in a way...

All the prophets are on the same side - They have different roles - Jesus pbuh being the messiah, Ibrahim pbuh being the friend of God and having his progeny as prophets - Moses pbuh talking to God directly, Muhammad pbuh being the intercessor (on the leave of God on the last day) and last prophet of God etc etc.

Furthermore as Muslims see Jesus pbuh as Great prophet like all the other prophets he is human and will live a human life - eternal life is in the next life. His role of messiah he will fufil before the end of time kill the anti christ and establish peace on earth.


edit - No prophet is dead (spiritually) they are all with God.

[siam]

^^ this was also mentioned and ur right about it...but i took the various verses that we can relate to now.

When I first looked into Judiasm ---I was surprised...until then, I had assumed that the Christian interpretation of the OT was more or less how Jews also understood the Torah!! But I found that actually Judaism and Islam are fairly close in our beliefs and structures.
Some similarities.....
Both Believe in the One God, Unique, Indivisible, Genderless. (slight difference is that some Jews may believe God is Genderless in that he has both male and female aspects while we believe he is neither male nor female)
Neither religion has the concept of original sin, Both believe in the inherent goodness of creation.
Both religions believe faith and practice must be balanced and both are important (orthodoxy and orthopraxis)
Both have "God's Laws" ---Judaism has Halaka, Islam has Sharia
Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages---both have a "root word" system that supports a deep, rich understanding of our Holy texts. ---and in fact, if I remember correctly, Arabic has had a lot of influence on the Jewish re-understanding of Hebrew(apparently the meanings of some words had become lost in time)---I think it was Rabbi Maimonides (Rambam) who made a Hebew-Arabic dictionary.....
There was a lot of dialogue and philosophical development between Judaism and Islam during the Golden age of Islam. One thing that we have to remember is that Islam has always been a Just and tolerant religion ---the Quran calls the Jews and Christians "people of the Book".
There is a lot of intolerance in the West now because of socio-economic and geo-political circumstances---but I feel as Muslims we must try to stay true to the spirit of Islam..perhaps we can be an example to others.

Some Dutch Catholics have "re-branded" their Lent as "Christian Ramadan" and some Catholics are fasting the Muslim way!! Apparently fasting had been part of Christianity but had fallen out of favor.....

[YM Usrah Umar]

Hmm...Unlike many Muslims, Christians don't believe that Jesus will come back after over 2000 years of being with God...just to DIE and become worm food after he establishes the Kingdom of God on earth for about 40 years.

Nope.

actually prophets (pbut) dont become worm food...they are preserved

[YM Usrah Umar]

also can sum1 plz tell me does it mention in the bible that the christians had to go to war or fight at some points? like the muslim e.g battle of badr, uhud etc etc, im jus wondering did the christians and jews fight violaters etc?

[Ramadhan]

also can sum1 plz tell me does it mention in the bible that the christians had to go to war or fight at some points? like the muslim e.g battle of badr, uhud etc etc, im jus wondering did the christians and jews fight violaters etc?

I cant remember precisely, but I think it is commanded in the OT of the bible.
Whether commanded or not, the fact is christians as a group of people went to war far more times and killed far more people than any other groups of people in the past 2,000 years.

[Chavundur]

I want to ask one question, I see great atheistic influence and tendency in western countries ( I know It is very explicit ), How Christianity can deal with that problem. I mean When We think as a Christian, Is there any hope or perspective ?

[gmcbroom]

Chavundur, there is always hope. As for what can a christian do? Well, I can't speak for all, but I pray. Take the recent killing of Osama Bin Laden. Where as there were quite a few people in the US that were celebrating in the streets at his death. There were and are many who deplore his assination. Don't get me wrong he was responsible for many of my countrymen's deaths both in the US and abroad. However, that said, as a christian I weep at the death of a man who was killed without the chance to repent. Christians, that actually understand what it means to be christian, do not rejoice over the death of another no matter what their crimes were. It's about, redemption, being right with God. That is why the Church is against the death penalty and abortion because it robs a person of there chance to repent. Though, the Catechism does acknowledge that there are times that for the safety of society, some may be put to death by governments as in Osama Bin Ladens case, they don't like it.

Peace be with you

[YM Usrah Umar]

I cant remember precisely, but I think it is commanded in the OT of the bible.
Whether commanded or not, the fact is christians as a group of people went to war far more times and killed far more people than any other groups of people in the past 2,000 years.

jazaks bro, can a christian plz reply to my post regarding wars mentioned in the bible? why they had to fight etc?

[gmcbroom]

YM Usrah Umar,
Hmmmm.......If your referring to Christians fighting in a war in the Bible you won't find it. The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order.

That is one of the things that make Christianity so different from other faiths. We are supposed to turn the other cheek and meet violence with love.

Now, you could point to all the wars fought in the name of Christianity and by christians even up to the War on Terror of today and ask.

"Are christians fighting to spread Christianity?"

While many may say yes, they should look into the specifics of any war. Even the crusades hundreds of years ago had more to do with gaining social, economic, and political power, than it did with spreading the faith.

The badr, and uhud conflicts were fought along the same lines. The fact that they were outnumbered so heavily is a testament to their bravery in the face of such odds. Makes me want to cry out,"Sparta!"

Politicians have used religion more as a tool to influence those around them since the beginning.

Peace be with you

[Chavundur]

Chavundur, there is always hope. As for what can a christian do? Well, I can't speak for all, but I pray. Take the recent killing of Osama Bin Laden. Where as there were quite a few people in the US that were celebrating in the streets at his death. There were and are many who deplore his assination. Don't get me wrong he was responsible for many of my countrymen's deaths both in the US and abroad. However, that said, as a christian I weep at the death of a man who was killed without the chance to repent. Christians, that actually understand what it means to be christian, do not rejoice over the death of another no matter what their crimes were. It's about, redemption, being right with God. That is why the Church is against the death penalty and abortion because it robs a person of there chance to repent. Though, the Catechism does acknowledge that there are times that for the safety of society, some may be put to death by governments as in Osama Bin Ladens case, they don't like it.

Peace be with you

Gmcbroom, I don't know how OBL is related with our subject but I think you gave that sample in order to show how people lost their peace in their hearths. Of course there seems no justice in American government, At least They have to judge him in order to explain everything, But they preferred to hide something. If I turn to my question, When I look at the history of Christianity, I see a general cause and effect table giving birth to normalization of irreligiousness or atheism. I mean There is a religion before people and it is so flexible that You don't need to think limits or thinking about matters. The form of religion has been mutated into a complex mechanism. In other words, Religion itself seems like living the scenes of Passion of The Christ. You have to have a submitted mind to predecessors without judging and have a good hearth. What I try to say is how can We expect a good result in favor of believers of christianity against atheism or new worldly life style satisfying desires only without thinking death or religion you can call it agnosticism ? Sometimes I see demographic studies like only 60% of England or Swiss believe, most of them atheist and preferred to deny. I see atheism the biggest problem for humanity. I prefer to see America as a 99% percent christian instead of Atheist.
.

[Darth Ultor]

jews

uzair as son of god etc etc

jews

uzair as son of god etc etc

uzair as son of god

Uh, that verse in the Quran was talking about a specific group of Jews thousands of years ago. I'm a practicing Jew and we never preach about Ezra (Uzair) being the son of God.

[YM Usrah Umar]

YM Usrah Umar,
Hmmmm.......If your referring to Christians fighting in a war in the Bible you won't find it. The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order.

That is one of the things that make Christianity so different from other faiths. We are supposed to turn the other cheek and meet violence with love.

Now, you could point to all the wars fought in the name of Christianity and by christians even up to the War on Terror of today and ask.

"Are christians fighting to spread Christianity?"

While many may say yes, they should look into the specifics of any war. Even the crusades hundreds of years ago had more to do with gaining social, economic, and political power, than it did with spreading the faith.

The badr, and uhud conflicts were fought along the same lines. The fact that they were outnumbered so heavily is a testament to their bravery in the face of such odds. Makes me want to cry out,"Sparta!"

Politicians have used religion more as a tool to influence those around them since the beginning.

Peace be with you

peace be to you too, thank you for answering my friend...really appreciate. u mentioned "The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order. "....can you plz expalin this? why did they hav to? cheers

[YM Usrah Umar]

Uh, that verse in the Quran was talking about a specific group of Jews thousands of years ago. I'm a practicing Jew and we never preach about Ezra (Uzair) being the son of God.

really? im quite suprised but ok kl no probs. im quite glad your here. could u plz answer the following questions plz my fellow friend?

1) earlier in this thread, i mentioned a story (i tink its from judiasm) that god and a prophet fought with each other and the prophet beat god...is this true? if yes could you plz explain plz, post the verse/story plz?

2) if zionism is just a political thing then why is it being compared with judiasm? it must be more than political?

[Darth Ultor]

1. Don't know. Never heard of it.

2. Zionism is political.

[siam]

The Story is about Prophet Job(pbuh) who struggled with Satan (according to Judaism) the point of the story being---why do good people suffer, and the answer according to Rabbi Maimonides---is that God's ways are always just even if we do not understand them.
---Some Chrsitians (I think) may interpret that the struggle was against God or an Angel......The Christians use the Torah as part of their Bible and call it the Old testament---but they have a different interpretation of it than the Jews.

I could be wrong (and biased)---but as I understand it---Zionism as a movement started off because of what the Europeans (including Russians)did to the Jews in Europe---anti-Semitism was a part of Church doctrine both Protestant and Catholic---who felt that Jews must be punished because they "killed God'---"Deicide." The American Jews pushed for a "Jewish state" and the result is the Isreali/Palestinian mess we see today. However, this idea does have some religious roots---The "Olam Haba"/Messianism concept mentions a time when all the Jews will be gathered together in the "promised land" and peace will reign......

The first wave of Russian Jews arrived in Palestine around the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century---by the 1920, there were so many Jewish immigrants that clashes began to happen between the immigrants and the residents---The Jews organized a defense organization called the Haganah which then evolved into an underground terrorist organization---1929---the Hebron massacre happens and by the 1930's---Palestinians were being expelled from their lands....around this time Haganah splits into another organsation called the Irgon--who conducts terrorist activities against the British and Palestinians---the Irgon then splits into another group---the Stern gang---another terrorist organization---Eventualy, all these are disbanded and their members become the Isreali Defense forces.

However, keep in mind that at this time it was the British that controlled this area ---their ineptness and foolishness contributed a lot to the problems.....

It's a complex history---please feel free to make corrections......

[siam]

"Deicide"----I forgot to mention that Christian Chrurches have made efforts to revise their anti-Jewish sentiments for example the CCC 839-834 (Catholic Chrurch)
How successful these attempts might be are debatable as statistics in the U.S. show that hate-crimes against the Jews are the highest among all minorities.....

Zionism---The most ardent supporters of Zionism are not the diaspora Jews but some (U.S.) Evangelical Christians....who seem to have a love-hate relationship with Jews. They call them (the Jews) "the beloved of God" but also believe that when the "Messiah/Messianic age" comes, God will smite all the Jews--and everyone else except for them.....or something like that......

This information may also be biased---pls feel free to correct.

[Zafran]

salaam

Siam were you a Jew before? are you a convert? seem to know a lot.

peace

[siam]

:D Nah---I've been fortunate enough to be born a Muslim.....

My knowledge of Judaism and I/P situation was acquired (slowly) only after 9/11.----may have some gaps in it........

[YM Usrah Umar]

jazaks for the replys. does it mention in the quran how the jews are rich? if yes can sum1 post the ayah plz? how do they hav alot of money?

[Sol Invictus]

They call them (the Jews) "the beloved of God" but also believe that when the "Messiah/Messianic age" comes, God will smite all the Jews--and everyone else except for them.....or something like that......

i'd have to disagree. perhaps you could tell us why you think the above is at all true?

[Darth Ultor]

jazaks for the replys. does it mention in the quran how the jews are rich? if yes can sum1 post the ayah plz? how do they hav alot of money?

I beg your pardon? Did you read the Quran or Mein Kampf? A lot of us don't even have the money to pay bills.

[YM Usrah Umar]

I beg your pardon? Did you read the Quran or Mein Kampf? A lot of us don't even have the money to pay bills.

but u can deny that jews (not all of them) have history about money and how they hav alot of it.

[Darth Ultor]

Not really. That's just propaganda. There were rich Jews prominent in certain governments in the past. That's why that stereotype exists. It's like saying many Middle-Eastern Muslims are oil tycoons.

[siam]

If I am in error---pls make corrections.....there are so many types of Christianities---I can't keep them straight........

The info (love-hate relationship) I read in an article about CUFI (Christians United For Isreal) which is a Christian Zionist organization. Some of the attendees at a CUFI conference expressed the views I mentioned.....
It has to do with the concept of "rapture"---which some groups of Christians interpret as being "gathered up" (presumably into space?) so that they (their own specific group of Christians) do not have to face the "tribulations"---and "Armageddon"---or some such......might be specific to "born again" type Evangelicals.....perhaps....

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

anyway here are some views......

This helps to explain how Christian Zionist leaders like John Hagee are getting away with claiming that their End Times prophecy is benign and Jewish leaders shouldn’t be concerned. In the Dispensational timeline the reign of the Antichrist, apocalyptic battles, suffering of the Jews, and other horrors of the Tribulation period don’t begin until after the born again believers are “Raptured” or snatched from the earth. They have to wait…for this divine intervention. Jewish leaders who embrace Hagee say that they don’t believe this will ever take place, so there’s nothing to worry about. No Rapture, no Tribulation, no problem. But most of John Hagee’s CUFI leaders and hosts are no longer Dispensational! They have made the transition to the more aggressive theology in which believers can…advance the prophetic clock.
In this rapidly growing Dominionist theology, born again believers…fight the Antichrist and evil instead of watching from the grandstands of heaven…Many Charismatic evangelicals are being taught to forget about being Raptured and prepare to fight…This is one of the factors creating the current hysteria in the U.S. about the Antichrist and his one-world government and why conspiracy theories are so rampant. (Christian Identity and associated white supremacist groups have always rejected the Rapture and taught that they must prepare to fight.)
---Richard Silverstien at Tikkun Olam

"But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. --- must convert or suffer the torture of eternal ****ation. " ---Max Blumenthal.

Jerry Falwell is another Evangelical who said in 1999 that the Anti-Christ was Jewish---but later apologised.
John Hagee apparently supports many Jewish settler groups with donations amounting upto a million Dollars.

[siam]

@ YM The Quran encourages trade. Wealth is a blessing from God that comes with the responsibility of charity.
Charity is an important practice in both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is called Tzadaka (?) not sure if the spelling is correct---anyway, like us Muslims, Jews who are blessed with wealth, must share with the needy---I think---right Boaz? .....It is obligatory or something(?).......

[Sol Invictus]

If I am in error---pls make corrections.....there are so many types of Christianities---I can't keep them straight........

The info (love-hate relationship) I read in an article about CUFI (Christians United For Isreal) which is a Christian Zionist organization. Some of the attendees at a CUFI conference expressed the views I mentioned.....
It has to do with the concept of "rapture"---which some groups of Christians interpret as being "gathered up" (presumably into space?) so that they (their own specific group of Christians) do not have to face the "tribulations"---and "Armageddon"---or some such......might be specific to "born again" type Evangelicals.....perhaps....

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

anyway here are some views......

This helps to explain how Christian Zionist leaders like John Hagee are getting away with claiming that their End Times prophecy is benign and Jewish leaders shouldn’t be concerned. In the Dispensational timeline the reign of the Antichrist, apocalyptic battles, suffering of the Jews, and other horrors of the Tribulation period don’t begin until after the born again believers are “Raptured” or snatched from the earth. They have to wait…for this divine intervention. Jewish leaders who embrace Hagee say that they don’t believe this will ever take place, so there’s nothing to worry about. No Rapture, no Tribulation, no problem. But most of John Hagee’s CUFI leaders and hosts are no longer Dispensational! They have made the transition to the more aggressive theology in which believers can…advance the prophetic clock.
In this rapidly growing Dominionist theology, born again believers…fight the Antichrist and evil instead of watching from the grandstands of heaven…Many Charismatic evangelicals are being taught to forget about being Raptured and prepare to fight…This is one of the factors creating the current hysteria in the U.S. about the Antichrist and his one-world government and why conspiracy theories are so rampant. (Christian Identity and associated white supremacist groups have always rejected the Rapture and taught that they must prepare to fight.)
---Richard Silverstien at Tikkun Olam

"But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. --- must convert or suffer the torture of eternal ****ation. " ---Max Blumenthal.

Jerry Falwell is another Evangelical who said in 1999 that the Anti-Christ was Jewish---but later apologised.
John Hagee apparently supports many Jewish settler groups with donations amounting upto a million Dollars.

while the above is rather fascinating, i don't want to get into a discussion on it seeing as my question has little to do with what has been presented therein. once again, i have to ask you where you got the understanding that the messiah would kill all the jews etc?

[YM Usrah Umar]

@ YM The Quran encourages trade. Wealth is a blessing from God that comes with the responsibility of charity.
Charity is an important practice in both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is called Tzadaka (?) not sure if the spelling is correct---anyway, like us Muslims, Jews who are blessed with wealth, must share with the needy---I think---right Boaz? .....It is obligatory or something(?).......

yes of course bro there is but ther has to be religous background behind the fact that jews are so wealthy, yh u can say that they put alot of emphasis of education, theyv seem to be a community where they help each other out since what happened with hitler etc etc, many more that i may not know about but i think its stems way back....way back. in the quran allah said stay away from the pgi fat and the jews ignored this, and sold the pig fat

[YM Usrah Umar]

oh yh i was wanting to mention do the christians still use the old testament to this day or is it jus the new testament? and the jews still use the old testament right?

[siam]

@ YM ---pig fat^o)!!??? ---- Wherever you are getting your info---it seems it might be an unreliable source? Also, as a Muslim, it is wise to double check claims of what the Quran says---with an actual Quran so that any false claims are not repeated.?......Usually quotations from the Quran come with a Surah number or name, and verse number......
The internet is a wonderful resource of information---but some information is biased and, I know from my own experience, it is difficult to figure out .....
You seem to feel that the "wealth of the Jews" is fact---perhaps you can double check with other sources to verify if it actually is a fact? because otherwise, speculating on something that turns out not to be a fact would really be useless---right?:D ----You are doing the right thing by asking questions....it is a good way to get information......

[siam]

The Jews use the Torah (written), they also have an oral Torah (Talmud) which was written down as the Mishna. The Gemara are rabbinical works about the Mishna. The 2 together make up the Talmud. There are 2 Talmuds, the Yerusalmi and the Babylonian. The Jews also have the Midrash which are explanations/commentary.

The Torah along with two other books(?) make up the Tanakh---the other two are the nevim and ketuvim (?)

The Christians have a translated version of the Torah that they call the Old Testament (OT). Most Christians use the Septuagint which is the (Koine)Greek translation of the Hebrew Torah---to translate into their English Bibles as OT. The Catholic Church as a latin translation which they call the Vulgate. The Early Eastern Chruch used the Peshi-tta which was an aramaic translation of the Torah. The Ethiopian Church also had its own version of the OT.

again---any corrections will be appreciated......

[Darth Ultor]

@ YM The Quran encourages trade. Wealth is a blessing from God that comes with the responsibility of charity.
Charity is an important practice in both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is called Tzadaka (?) not sure if the spelling is correct---anyway, like us Muslims, Jews who are blessed with wealth, must share with the needy---I think---right Boaz? .....It is obligatory or something(?).......

Yes, any of us who can afford to give Tzedakah (notice how it sounds like Zakat) must give it. The wealthy have to donate at least 10% of their salaries.

[جوري]

Tzedakah

actually it sounds more lik sadaqah which is alms giving..
sadaqah and Zakat differ in that you can give sadaqa to anyone but zakat only to Muslims..

peace

[siam]

I don't think Boaz was referring to the pronounciation---Tzedakah is Hebrew for charity---and as he confirmed---like zakat it is an obligatory charity. But I think Jews also practice voluntary charity?

[siam]

do Christians have obligatory charity?

[al yunan]

Dear brother Boaz,
I commend on your patience and I feel bad that you had to read so many abussive remarks.
Best wishes
Shalom

[Woodrow]

do Christians have obligatory charity?

Most Christian denominations have a practice called tithing in which they are to give 10% of their income to the church. the church in turn is to use this for things such as charity, church up keep and missionary work. The degree of obligation to give this 10% varies among denominations. For example most Catholic churches are very lax and simply pass a basket around each mass. Some Baptist churches are quite demanding and will send members a monthly bill for it. Most Denominations fall somewhere in between.

[جوري]

Dear brother Boaz, I commend on your patience and I feel bad that you had to read so many abussive remarks. Best wishes Shalom

we actually enjoy having Boaz here.. him and Rav, but Rav left sometime back..

peace

[Darth Ultor]

Also, I don't know why it says in the Quran that the Jews said the Priests are partners of God. At the time of the Holy Temple, you could get executed for uttering such blasphemy. Like the Muslims, we believe God is One. Uno. Wahad. No equal, no second. You can't be a Jew and say God has an equal to Him.

By the way, do Muslims also place their own health and lives above everything except a few circumstances? With the Jews, there are a few times when you have to choose to give up your own life. The two I remember is if someone says to renounce your faith and to choose between your life and the life of another. That is when you must choose to give up your life.

[Ramadhan]

jazaks for the replys. does it mention in the quran how the jews are rich? if yes can sum1 post the ayah plz? how do they hav alot of money?

but u can deny that jews (not all of them) have history about money and how they hav alot of it.

yes of course bro there is but ther has to be religous background behind the fact that jews are so wealthy, yh u can say that they put alot of emphasis of education, theyv seem to be a community where they help each other out since what happened with hitler etc etc, many more that i may not know about but i think its stems way back....way back. in the quran allah said stay away from the pgi fat and the jews ignored this, and sold the pig fat

Brother, as Boaz said himself, I urge you to read the Qur'an and ahadeeth instead of mein kampf.

Your opinions seem taken from enemies of Islam to make Islam and muslims look bad.

[YM Usrah Umar]

like i said before in this thread plz do not take offence plz, im not asking in a angry manner or anythn...its just asking questions in a grace manner...forgive me if it sounded like rude.

@ YM ---pig fat!!??? ---- Wherever you are getting your info---it seems it might be an unreliable source?

my bad not the quran but from hadith. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said "Allah's curse is on the Jews. When Allah prohibited upon them the fat of the animals, they dissolved it, then sold it and ate its price!" (Al-Bukhari 2236, Muslim 3/1207)

anyways im not hating....forgive me

[siam]

@ Boaz ---Perhaps surah 9 verse 31 (Preists as partners) can be best understood in context of verse 34---where Priests "devour the wealth of men and hinder them from the way of God"



This is only speculation on my part-----there is the Jewish concept of "Shutafut"(partnership) which in the 2nd temple period was used for community-building....so that ritual feasts were conducted with public funds---instead of donations from the rich---so that all Isreal (nation) could particpate (partnership). The idea apparently has something to do with the covenant---that --as a nation---there is a "partnership with God". (interpreted as the responsiblity of the "nation" to do God's will).....(?)

It may be possible some "Preists" may have abused their power...........perhaps the Arab Jews in the area misunderstood some things....?........

I am not that familiar with Jewish history (or Judaism) ...so feel free to correct...

[YM Usrah Umar]

boaz my riend, can u plz tell me wat the rules are according to day of sabbath are?

[siam]

The Jews have 613 "commandments (or rules). These are called mitzvot---if you google it you will find ones related to sabbath. You could also visit Judaism 101 to get the "Basics" of Judasim.

Other "rules" are called Halaka and correspond to what we Muslims call Fiqh (Jurisprudence)

[YieldedOne]

FYI. Jesus simplifies the 613 mitzvot (not negated them) into the Great Commandments of Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (the Jewish Shema, Love of God) and Leviticus 19:9-18 (Love of neighbor as self). Jesus himself attested that doing these two commandments fulfilled all the Law and Prophets.

Jesus, the God-authorized Prophet and Messenger of God, specified this as his teaching. As I see it, we have every reason in the world to believe that the historical JEWISH Jesus actually taught this.

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

[Darth Ultor]

This simplification was taught way before Jesus was born. Rabbi Hillel was asked to explain Judaism to a gentile while standing on one leg. He said, "What you don't want done to you, don't do unto others and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is explanation." And you know what, way before Moses got the ten commandment, Confucius who wasn't a Jew taught the "Love your neighbor as yourself" rule.

[Zafran]

This simplification was taught way before Jesus was born. Rabbi Hillel was asked to explain Judaism to a gentile while standing on one leg. He said, "What you don't want done to you, don't do unto others and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is explanation." And you know what, way before Moses got the ten commandment, Confucius who wasn't a Jew taught the "Love your neighbor as yourself" rule.

Yep - Just shows that God's messege has always been universal.

peace

[Darth Ultor]

Was Confucius considered a prophet?

[Zafran]

Was Confucius considered a prophet?

Nobody knows for sure.

[gmcbroom]

Prophet is Abrahamic in origin so I dount Confuscius an asian mystic was a Prophet in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic sense. A wise teacher certainly. A Prophet not likely.
Peace be with you

[YM Usrah Umar]

unfortuently i cant seem to find the rules of sabbath...can sum1 post them for me here plz? im so sorry

[Ramadhan]

And you know what, way before Moses got the ten commandment, Confucius who wasn't a Jew taught the "Love your neighbor as yourself" rule.

Not true.
Confucius was born a thousand of years after Moses (pbuh). Confucius was born in 551-479 BCE.

[Darth Ultor]

Well, according to Islam, God did send a messenger to every nation of the world until Muhammad was revealed as a prophet.

[Ramadhan]

Well, according to Islam, God did send a messenger to every nation of the world until Muhammad was revealed as a prophet.

True. God (SWT) is Just and He sent messengers to every nation to bring guidance and Muhammad SAW as the final messenger. But, after their deaths, the main message which was always the same: worship One God, was changed and twisted. Only the Qur'an is guarded from change because it is intended for all mankind.
However, in the Qur'an only the names 25 of those prophets were revealed to us, so we can state that so and so was a prophet if they are not named in the Qur'an. All we can do is speculate, and speculation is obviously subject to falsehood.

[siam]

1. That the new month shall be solemnly proclaimed as holy, and the months and years shall be calculated by the Supreme Court only (Ex. 12:2) (affirmative) (the authority to declare months is inferred from the use of the word "unto you").
2. Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.
3. To sanctify Shabbat (Ex. 20:8) (CCA19). See Shabbat.
4. Not to do work on Shabbat (Ex. 20:10) (CCN6). See Shabbat.
5. To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21) (CCA20). See Shabbat.

These are mitzvot 107 to 111 (107 has nothing to do with shabbat....see 108 to 111)

[siam]

Rabbi M. Blumenfeilds thoughts on idolatry, submission and service to G-d.........

THE FIRST PRINCIPLE: GOD AS CREATOR
HE IS ABSOLUTE
The first Principle is to be aware and to know that there is a Primal Cause, a Being whose existence is absolute and from whose existence all existence stems. He alone and only He is absolute. He exists because He exists. It is inconceivable that He not be. His existence has no cause. There is nothing that supports Him. There is nothing that maintains Him. There is no agency through which He came into being. In contrast, everything else that exists is dependent and contingent upon His existence. Nothing else exists in and of itself and independent of Him. Everything else exists only because He wills its existence. He gives everything else its existence and He maintains it.
...........
For man to serve, to submit himself to supplicating God, the Almighty must be essentially different from him. The difference between God and man must be qualitative, not merely quantitative.
IDOLATRY AS BARTER
If this concept is true, then why do we find so many civilizations serving idols? The idol does not have any absolute existence, it has a contingent one. The idol, like those serving it, has needs and therefore limitations and weaknesses. Human awareness of this dependency invites relating to the idol through barter -- service for a payoff. People will serve a god only as long as it offers some kind of benefit. Throughout history, the gods that were favored were those that were able to deliver the rains and victories that their worshippers desired. This form of worship, tit for tat, is self-serving and not sincere submission. The contingent existence of the idol is its inherent weakness, one that makes real submission to it impossible.
The recognition of the Almighty's absolute existence as the one and only Source of our existence is what binds us to Him. Submission to Him is predicated upon the knowledge that He is the Cause of the entire world and all the experience that one has within it. This knowledge, then, ultimately carries with it the profound realization that one has no absolute existence at all. It is out of this awareness that Moshe Rabbeinu declared: "We, what are we?" (Exodus 15:8; see Chulin 89a). To be aware that one is nothing more than God's creation and to be aware of all the ramifications of this reality is the highest expression of service.
THE ONLY PERMANENT ENTITY
Another consequence of the fact that God is absolute is the idea that He is unchanging. Contingent beings are affected by a variety of things and are constantly changing. One depends on something, and when that thing is altered, one must also change. God, who is not dependent upon anything and who has neither cause nor source other than His own Being, is unchanging.

.................The first principle mentioned here sounds similar to Tawheed.......clearly, of the 3 Abrahamic religions, Christianity seems to be the "odd man out"........

[Darth Ultor]

The only real idols these days are the dollar, the euro, the pound, etc.

[YieldedOne]

Zafran:
Yep - Just shows that God's messege has always been universal.

Then why isn't "loving your neighbor as yourself" the number 1 priority of ALL religiously minded people, particularly the Abrahamic religions? It seems to me that if it's so OBVIOUS to be a universal commandment from God, that to fail to do it is simple, direct disobedience.

To fail to love one's neighbor before God is to disobey the commandment...right?

[YieldedOne]

Quote:
The first Principle is to be aware and to know that there is a Primal Cause, a Being whose existence is absolute and from whose existence all existence stems. He alone and only He is absolute. He exists because He exists. It is inconceivable that He not be. His existence has no cause. There is nothing that supports Him. There is nothing that maintains Him. There is no agency through which He came into being. In contrast, everything else that exists is dependent and contingent upon His existence. Nothing else exists in and of itself and independent of Him. Everything else exists only because He wills its existence. He gives everything else its existence and He maintains it.

Given the guy is a Jewish Rabbi, I'm sure he'd be talking about the One God of the Shema being this "Primal Cause". I'm sure he'd also say that this "Primal Cause" is never without His Word and His Spirit. Ever. Betcha a thousand dollars. :)

[gmcbroom]

Yieldedone, yes, though probably with qualifications. Because if you did't know that was a commandment you may not dealt with as harshly as say someone who was aware and chose to ignore it. Or atleast thats the hope.

Peace be with you

[M.I.A.]

Zafran:
Yep - Just shows that God's messege has always been universal.

Then why isn't "loving your neighbor as yourself" the number 1 priority of ALL religiously minded people, particularly the Abrahamic religions? It seems to me that if it's so OBVIOUS to be a universal commandment from God, that to fail to do it is simple, direct disobedience.

To fail to love one's neighbor before God is to disobey the commandment...right?

you can love anyone you want, to throw pearls before swine or to enjoin evil is forbidden.

i guess to be able to discern disobedience while maintaining a sense of humility is the key.. finding a middle path to walk where ones heart and mind still function with the other senses.

[siam]

The only real idols these days are the dollar, the euro, the pound, etc.

true

but I'd say, any "creation" worshipped as God/Divine is idol worship.

[Darth Ultor]

Funny that idolatry is seen as a worse sin than atheism

[Ramadhan]

Funny that idolatry is seen as a worse sin than atheism

Where did you get that idea from? idolatry and atheism is the same in Islam = musryk.

although in my opinion idolatry is worse because you worship creation. which is a clear case of creating your own gods.

[YM Usrah Umar]

soz to bring it back to the sabbath but im hoping to get the following answered, i hear that even "self-defense or calling a doctor to save a
patient who was in bad condition", is this true?

[siam]

• Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.

- Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a

The Quran confirms that this message was given to the "Children of Israel" in Surah 5 verse 32.

YM---I would seriously recommend you spend some time looking at good Jewish websites to get the basics......

[gmcbroom]

or just ask your rabbi.

[Darth Ultor]

Look, if you want answers about Judaism, go to Chabad.org and call your local chabad house. I can guarantee they won't try to convert you.

[Zafran]

Zafran:
Yep - Just shows that God's messege has always been universal.

Then why isn't "loving your neighbor as yourself" the number 1 priority of ALL religiously minded people, particularly the Abrahamic religions? It seems to me that if it's so OBVIOUS to be a universal commandment from God, that to fail to do it is simple, direct disobedience.

To fail to love one's neighbor before God is to disobey the commandment...right?

salaam

well it is in Christainty and Islam - thats why people like inviting people to there religion - thats why there is extensive Missionery/dawah work in these 2 religions.

peace

[Darth Ultor]

The reason we don't invite is because we don't say our religion is the only one accepted by God. We don't focus on the salvation of our souls. We focus more on following God's commandments for right now. All of them. But we do accept people who come to us, we just inform them of the heavy responsibility.

[siam]

"We focus more on following God's commandments for right now"

Here is something from the Talmud........

"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the worlds grief
Do Justly now,
Love mercy now,
walk humbly now,
You are not obligated to complete the work,
but neither are you free to abandon it."
----Talmud.

[Predator]

The reason we don't invite is because we don't say our religion is the only one accepted by God. We don't focus on the salvation of our souls..

God chose bani israel for the role of Priests

Exodus 19:5
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[ will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ .”

That was your role, you were supposed to guide mankind to the knowledge of God .And now you've done way with that role and have made your religion into a racial religion
saying that you need to be born a Jew to be Jew .

We focus more on following God's commandments for right now. All of them. .

Yeah sure , you jews sure focus wellon following the commands [/sarcasm]

Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not kill

Which is why the israelis committing the biggest robbery of the 20th century.

[Darth Ultor]

What propaganda are you basing this racial thing on?

[Ramadhan]

Boaz, does the following reflect the belief of judaism?

From http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

1Jews believe that one person cannot die for the sins of another person.

2 Jews believe that we do not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

3 Jews believe that Jesus was not the messiah.

4 Jews believe that God hates human sacrifices. Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? If it was Jesus-the-god, Jews don't believe that God can die. If it was Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus was a human death, a human sacrifice. Jews believe that God hates the very idea of human sacrifice.

5 Jews believe that one is born into the world with original purity, and not with original sin. Jews do not believe in original sin.

6 Jews believe that God is one and indivisible. Jews do not believe in a trinity.

7 Jews believe in The Satan, but not in a devil. There is a difference between The Satan and the devil.

8 Jews believe that God is God, and humans are humans. God does not become human nor do humans become God.

9 Jews believe that "Jews for Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and "Hebrew Christians" are no longer Jews, even if they were once Jews.

[siam]

Interesting....

A Jewish person gave me a definition of Satan that I liked---he called it "the force of fragmentation/division"....since division/fragmentation takes/tempts us away from "Unity"---it seems appropriate.....

Judaism is much older than Christianity---but they seem to have done a much better job of preserving the message of God (Tawheed/Unity) than the Christians and their trinity.....a concept that fragments/divides God thus breaking the "Unity".

[Darth Ultor]

It does, Naid

[Ramadhan]

It does, Naid

Then what are those christian and catholics fundies in this forum going on and on about how christianity and judaism are very close and Islam is not, when the basics of judaism such as above show that Islam and Judaism are extremely close as Islam agrees with all those points.

[Amigo]

It depends on what is considered.
If you consider common beliefs about Jesus, Islam and Christianity are closer Catholicism/Orthodoxy in particular
If you consider common beliefs about God in relation to Man, Judaism and Christianity are closer Catholicism/Orthodoxy in particular
If you consider the actual practice of the religions: Judaism and Islam are closer; they are both Old Testaments mentality religions

[siam]

According to Richard Bulliet---the idea that "Western" civilization is "Judeo-Christian" is something that came about only after WWII as a response to the Holocaust----whose roots of hatred were in both Protestant and Catholic Christianity.......

I must say....I also fell into the trap of believing that "Judeo-Christian" Meta-narrative. Many Christians claim their concepts are found in the OT---a false claim.---Unless one totally distorts the OT into something unrecognizable by Jews......

However, Christianity has made attempts to re-evaluate/redefine its relationship with Jews and this is a good thing----hate should not be part of any religion.....


From Wikipedia-----
"As a part of Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI issued the declaration Nostra Aetate ("In Our Time"), which in part repudiated the traditional belief in the collective Jewish guilt for the Crucifixion.[11] Nostra Aetate stated that even though some Jewish authorities and those who followed them called for Jesus' death, the blame for this cannot be laid at the door of all those Jews present at that time, nor can the Jews in our time be held as guilty.
On November 16, 1998, Church Council of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America adopted a resolution prepared by its Consultative Panel on Lutheran-Jewish Relations urging any Lutheran church presenting a Passion Play to adhere to their Guidelines for Lutheran-Jewish Relations, stating that "the New Testament … must not be used as justification for hostility towards present-day Jews," and that "blame for the death of Jesus should not be attributed to Judaism or the Jewish people."[12][13]"

[siam]

@Amigo
" they are both Old Testaments mentality religions "---what does this mean?

[YieldedOne]

Funny.

Say, Boaz. Some questions...from a Judeo-Christian. Heh. ;D

1) Would Christianity exist historically without Judaism?

2) Can genuine Christianity, as a belief, be absolutely separable from Judaism?

3) Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without his "Word" or His "Spirit"? (Thinking of the Law, Writings, and Prophets). In other words, is there any Scriptural context where YHWH is absolutely separable from his "Word" or His "Spirit"?

4) Does Judaism historically and currently hold that the Holy Spirit of YHWH--that was upon His Prophets, including David--is nothing other than the Angel Gabriel?

5) Does Judaism hold that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God? If so, how does Judaism articulate this "image of God" concept?

[Ramadhan]

It depends on what is considered. If you consider common beliefs about Jesus, Islam and Christianity are closer Catholicism/Orthodoxy in particular If you consider common beliefs about God in relation to Man, Judaism and Christianity are closer Catholicism/Orthodoxy in particular If you consider the actual practice of the religions: Judaism and Islam are closer; they are both Old Testaments mentality religions

Did you not read my previous post of the 9 points? and what is the meaning of the unintelligible sentences you wrote above? care to elaborate.

Here, I elaborate the 9 points for your benefit:

1Jews believe that one person cannot die for the sins of another person.
Christians believe one person died to pay off the sins of the rest of humanity. Muslims and Jews absolutely believe that NO person die for the sins of another.

2 Jews believe that we do not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
Muslims also do not believe a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Christians believe in the blood atonement of Jesus.

3 Jews believe that Jesus was not the messiah.
Muslims believe in the prophethood of Jesus and that Jesus is one of the beloved prophet of Allah SWT. Christians believe Jesus is God.

4 Jews believe that God hates human sacrifices. Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? If it was Jesus-the-god, Jews don't believe that God can die. If it was Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus was a human death, a human sacrifice. Jews believe that God hates the very idea of human sacrifice.
Muslims also believe that God hates human sacrifices. Christians either believe in human sacrifices or in God sacrifices (deicide) depending on how they view Jesus when he died.

5 Jews believe that one is born into the world with original purity, and not with original sin. Jews do not believe in original sin.
Muslims also believe in the fitrah and purity of born babies, and do not believe in orginal sin. Christians believe that babies are born with sin and believe in original sin

6 Jews believe that God is one and indivisible. Jews do not believe in a trinity.
Muslims also believe exactly the same, Christians believe in 3-in-1 God (the supreme God, the human God, and the wandering spirit)

7 Jews believe in The Satan, but not in a devil. There is a difference between The Satan and the devil.
Muslisms believe in the syaiton. I dont know what the concept of Devil in christianity.

8 Jews believe that God is God, and humans are humans. God does not become human nor do humans become God.
Muslims believe exactly the same. Christians believe in cross-hybrid (union) of God and human.

9 Jews believe that "Jews for Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and "Hebrew Christians" are no longer Jews, even if they were once Jews.
no comment for this.

[Darth Ultor]

1. No it could not. Jesus was a Jew.
2. The main belief is the Oneness of God. Not one in three.
3. I don't know of any. But Muslims believe the same thing.
4. Well, God has worked through His prophets. We don't hold David to be a prophet. He was a King. A pious man. A righteous man. But not a prophet. He wrote the psalms himself, they weren't revealed to him.
5. In Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image." He made man in the image of the angels. Speaking of angels, Satan in Judaism isn't an enemy of God, he's a servant of God. His job is to try to tempt people to do evil.

[YieldedOne]

Thanks for the responses, Boaz. Feedbacking...

--------------------------------------


YO: 1) Would Christianity exist historically without Judaism?

Boaz: 1. No it could not. Jesus was a Jew.

Agreed.

****************************************

YO: 2) Can genuine Christianity, as a belief, be absolutely separable from Judaism?

Boaz: The main belief is the Oneness of God. Not one in three.

I understanding that Judaism doesn't hold to a Trinity. That wasn't really my question. It seems to me that the answer from #1 ties directly to this. Jews and Christians disagree on Jesus being the JEWISH Messiah. Jesus as the God's Messiah of Israel is a CORE belief of Christianity, from the Disciples to Paul on down...East AND West. To me, it seems impossible for Christianity to be absolutely separable from Judaism...for Christianity would have to remove any belief in Jesus as Messiah of the "Children of Israel". And Christianity CANNOT do that.

***********************

YO: 3) Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without his "Word" or His "Spirit"? (Thinking of the Law, Writings, and Prophets). In other words, is there any Scriptural context where YHWH is absolutely separable from his "Word" or His "Spirit"?

Boaz: I don't know of any. But Muslims believe the same thing.

1) Agreed. Scripturally speaking, it's never the case that YHWH is without either his Word or Spirit.

2) I don't know if Muslims believe the same thing with this. Maybe Naidamar can shed some light. :shade:

**********************

YO: 4) Does Judaism historically and currently hold that the Holy Spirit of YHWH--that was upon His Prophets, including David--is nothing other than the Angel Gabriel?

Boaz: Well, God has worked through His prophets. We don't hold David to be a prophet. He was a King. A pious man. A righteous man. But not a prophet. He wrote the psalms himself, they weren't revealed to him.


1) Interestingly enough, Islam holds David to be a prophet.

2) I don't think that you answered my main question: Is it the case that the Holy Spirit of YHWH--the Spirit of Prophecy that is spoken of in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings--is SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED with the angel Gabriel? All of the reading I've done says no...but I wanted to know what you thought.

**********************

YO: 5) Does Judaism hold that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God? If so, how does Judaism articulate this "image of God" concept?

Boaz: In Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image." He made man in the image of the angels.


This answer was confusing. Are you saying that the "us" in the above quote is talking about the angels? Doesn't the Genesis passage imply that God made Adam in HIS OWN image? The Jewish Encyclopedia seems to think so in it's entry on Adam...

"The Hebrew and Biblical name for man, and also for the progenitor of the human race. In the account of the Creation given in Gen. i. man was brought into being at the close of the sixth creative day, "made in the image of God," and invested with dominion over the rest of the animate world. Man was thus created, male and female, charged to replenish the earth with his own kind and to subdue it to his own uses."

...

"Why was only a single specimen of man created first? To teach us that he who destroys a single soul destroys a whole world and that he who saves a single soul saves a whole world; furthermore, in order that no race or class may claim a nobler ancestry, saying, 'Our father was born first'; and, finally, to give testimony to the greatness of the Lord, who caused the wonderful diversity of mankind to emanate from one type. And why was Adam created last of all beings? To teach him humility; for if he be overbearing, let him remember that the little fly preceded him in the order of creation. In a dispute, therefore, as to which Biblical verse expresses the fundamental principle of the Law, Simon ben 'Azkai maintained against R. Akiba—who, following Hillel, had singled out the Golden Rule (Lev. xix. 18)—that the principle of love must have as its basis Gen. v. 1, which teaches that all men are the offspring of him who was made in the image of God (Sifra, Ḳedoshim, iv.; Yer. Ned. ix. 41c; Gen. R. 24)."

[Perseveranze]

Believe what you want to believe, and we'll see who's right in the end - A statement within the Quran.

[YieldedOne]

All of the above could indicate how the term "Judeo-Christian" can be used to illustrate exactly the point that Paul was making in Romans: God's working with Israel is the "tree" to which Gentiles had become GRAFTED by faith in Jesus. As Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews." For Christians who take this SERIOUSLY, the term "Judeo-Christian" has meaning distinct from any attempt at political correctness or ecumenism.

Just for perspective.

[Ramadhan]

Boaz: 1. No it could not. Jesus was a Jew. Agreed.

Jesus was a rabbinic jew, not God.

Jews only agreed to the first part, not the second.

I understanding that Judaism doesn't hold to a Trinity. That wasn't really my question. It seems to me that the answer from #1 ties directly to this. Jews and Christians disagree on Jesus being the JEWISH Messiah. Jesus as the God's Messiah of Israel is a CORE belief of Christianity, from the Disciples to Paul on down...East AND West. To me, it seems impossible for Christianity to be absolutely separable from Judaism...for Christianity would have to remove any belief in Jesus as Messiah of the "Children of Israel". And Christianity CANNOT do that.

LOL, YO.
You and your trickery attempt at forcing us to accept the divinity of Jesus.

1) Agreed. Scripturally speaking, it's never the case that YHWH is without either his Word or Spirit. 2) I don't know if Muslims believe the same thing with this. Maybe Naidamar can shed some light.

Boaz didnt say he agree with you about word and spirit. I dont even know if Boaz even understand what you are talking about.
LOL, YO.
You and your trickery attempt at forcing us to accept the divinity of Jesus.

YO, why don't you just accept the fact the muslims and jews will NEVER accept that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is part of God, or that Jesus is divine.

It's not in jewish scriptures, and not in the Qur'an, and till the end of the day no true jews or muslims will ever believe that Jesus was God, or very god (in your own word).

You have been talking incessantly about this in every threads. I think I am going to save my response, and next time you post something like this again, I will just have to copy and paste this response.

[Ramadhan]

All of the above could indicate how the term "Judeo-Christian" can be used to illustrate exactly the point that Paul was making in Romans: God's working with Israel is the "tree" to which Gentiles had become GRAFTED by faith in Jesus. As Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews." For Christians who take this SERIOUSLY, the term "Judeo-Christian" has meaning distinct from any attempt at political correctness or ecumenism.

When you follow Jesus only, then yes you can call your religion judeo-christian, but since your faith is dominated by Saul (aka paul) of tarsus who elevated jesus into godhood and rejected all the judeo parts and abolish all the judeo laws that Jesus said he was never going to abolish, then what you have is Pauline christianity.

[YieldedOne]

Naidamar:
You and your trickery attempt at forcing us to accept the divinity of Jesus.

and...

YO, why don't you just accept the fact the muslims and jews will NEVER accept that Jesus is God, or that Jesus is part of God, or that Jesus is divine.
It's not in jewish scriptures, and not in the Qur'an, and till the end of the day no true jews or muslims will ever believe that Jesus was God, or very god (in your own word).

Bro. I don't know what your deal is...but none of the questions (or Boaz's responses) have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with any claim of divinity for Jesus. Just look at the sentences again. My whole aim was to note the similarities between Judaism and Christianity and to explain how some Christians can use the term "Judeo-Christian" meaningfully. This was specifically about THAT...and nothing else!

Are you serious? Is something wrong with you, bro? ^o)

[Predator]

What propaganda are you basing this racial thing on?

This racials thing stems from your own holy book the Talmud

Some Teachings of the Jewish Talmud

.
Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Where a Jew Should Do Evil

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell

[Ramadhan]

Bro. I don't know what your deal is...but none of the questions (or Boaz's responses) have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with any claim of divinity for Jesus. Just look at the sentences again. My whole aim was to note the similarities between Judaism and Christianity and to explain how some Christians can use the term "Judeo-Christian" meaningfully. This was specifically about THAT...and nothing else!

This is why I called you out on your trickery, as it has been proven in the other threads.

Now please answer me honestly: Is Jesus very god from very god or not?

[Ramadhan]

how some Christians can use the term "Judeo-Christian" meaningfully.

How can you honestly call yourself "judeo" when you follow Saul (aka paul, the enemy of Jesus) more than you follow jesus?

[Darth Ultor]

Whatever, Airforce. All those were Arab names. In my Talmud, it doesn't say any of that.

[Amigo]

To Siam (112)

Stoning , executions, 'eye for an eye; teeth for theth', polygamy, conception of God by what He does (Judge, Lording over, Master), not yet according to what He is. Tendency to see God as violent...

[Amigo]

To Naidama (114)

I had read that but thanks again. First, I have to point out that the Judaism we are talking about today is not the one practice by Mary and Jesus, if it were, these Jews would be Christians. They certainly got somethings wrong about the Faith of their ancestors. You will notice that they don't even recognize Jesus in any capacity, while at least Muslim recognize him as Prophet. For some precision, I will use key descriptive words about how each realition see God and his relation to us:

Judaism: Lord/servants also Father/Son(God-> man;Israel)
Islam: Master/slaves
Christianity: Lord/servants also Father/Son(God->God/Man;Jesus => Church)

No as we all know, Jews don't see the fatherhood of God as something real, but more poetical. At least the more they have this view, the more they approch Islam. Islam view God as absolute Master.
About bloody sacrifices, and sin; of course, where else did Christianity inherit terms like 'lamb'; as I said, modern Judaism is just different from the ancient one. John the Baptist would not have used the term 'lamb' to describe Jesus if he did not know what it meant for Jews.

[Ramadhan]

First, I have to point out that the Judaism we are talking about today is not the one practice by Mary and Jesus,

Mary and Jesus (pbut) followed all the jewish scriptures, and in fact, Jesus was a rabbinic jew, he was a teacher.
Mary and Jesus did not follow the NT.
Today's jews follow all jewish scriptures, today's jews do not follow the NT.
In fact, Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only and that he didn't come to abolish the (mosaic) law, but to fulfill them. So clearly Jesus didn't intend to create christianity.

In addition, the most important one: Mary and Jesus worshiped the one true God, and they were strictly monotheistic.
Compared that to todays christianity.

if it were, these Jews would be Christians.

what are you talking about? of course the jews would not be christians, hell, even jesus wouldn't be christian.

They certainly got somethings wrong about the Faith of their ancestors. You will notice that they don't even recognize Jesus in any capacity, while at least Muslim recognize him as Prophet.

I WILL notice??
Did you even read my post?? apparently you did not, despite you lying about it.
In my post, I said the jews didnt recognize the prophethood of Jesus (p), but muslims do.
Stop the christians word twisting habit!

Which is a greater deviation: not recognizing man as prophet, or making man as God?

The jews went to one extreme while christians went to the other farthest extreme. Islam give recognition to Jesus as a special prophet and NOT making him as God.

[Ramadhan]

Special for Amigo and others who are interested,

so, Jesus (pbuh) spoke aramaic, right?
Then go to this english-aramaic translator, and see what Jesus actually said when he prayed to God, just type "god" in the box.

http://www.pe****ta.org/

Just replace the stars with the letters "s" "h" "i" and "t"

it gets auto-censored.

[Amigo]

Hi Naidamar, I went to that site and did what you asked me. I am not sure what you wanted me to notice, can you be more detailed? thanks.

About noticing what jews believe about Jesus vs what Muslims believe about him, I knew that you know that ...seriously. Have a sense of humour:)... communication is more than letters sometimes:).

Well, about Jesus and the NT, He is the NT. And the OT is revealed in the new while the NT is hiden in the old. I am not talking about book(s) here. I am not talking about letters here, I am talking about the living Word of God. And yes, Mary was/is strictly monotheistic; and she is my Mother teaching me strict, pure, and full monotheism.

[Ramadhan]

Well, about Jesus and the NT, He is the NT.

Umm...have you ACTUALLY opened your bible? Do you actually know what is in the NT?

Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the NT.
The NT does not even contain "the gospel of Jesus".
The NT contains the gospels of john, matthew, mark, luke, the acts, pauline epistles, catholic epistles, revelation, pastoral epitsles. And some other church such as the Ethiopian orthodox add some other books as well.
None of it is "the gospel of Jesus"
Not only that, the development and canonization of the NT went for centuries, long after jesus. No need also to mention that the four gospels were written by anonymous people, long after jesus departure, AND in totally different language than the language spoken by Jesus (p).

I understand that in order to have belief in catholicism, you must have suppress your ear, eye, and mind over any facts and evidence and just ahve blind faith over what your popes and priests tell you.
The way you believe things in christianity and catholicism is no different than how children believe that santa clause really exist.

And the OT is revealed in the new while the NT is hidden in the old.

What does this even mean? Is there any christian who speaks in simple english, instead of speaking in tongue all the time?
Please try to make sense for once, guys.

And yes, Mary was/is strictly monotheistic; and she is my Mother teaching me strict, pure, and full monotheism.

So Mary is your mother (really? LOL) who teaches you strict, pure, and full monotheism, and in return you worship God the father, jesus, and the wandering ghosts?

And you repay your mother by worshiping her..ooopss not even her, but her statues! :

Either christians have totally new meanings for every single english words, or that christians do not act the words they speak, and do not mean the words they speak. If not, then why is it that your words are almost always contradictory to your acts and to the reality/facts/evidence?

[Ramadhan]

Following the last post, here's another difference between the belief of jews and christianity: The jews still keep the commandments given to Moses (the commandements that Jesus also kept and followed), while christians do not believe in the most important of the commandments:

you shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

[Amigo]

We are also aware of those verse. We have them in our Catechism.
We don't make idols, we make statues
We don't bow down before idols.
We bow down before statues of the people in our hearts who are in heaven, recalling/acknowledging/celebrating their presence/love for us, we bow down to receive their blessings and prayers for us.
Everyone who loves can understand these things.

[Ramadhan]

We are also aware of those verse. We have them in our Catechism. We don't make idols, we make statues We don't bow down before idols. We bow down before statues of the people in our hearts who are in heaven, recalling/acknowledging/celebrating their presence/love for us, we bow down to receive their blessings and prayers for us. Everyone who loves can understand these things.

This is yet another example of what I wrote earlier:

- christians devise new meanings of the words
- christians words contradict their actions

We don't make idols, we make statues

ok. whatever. other people can see what you do. Just because you claim you don't does not mean you don't.

We don't bow down before idols.

People are able to see the two images I have shown in my previous post, and from direct experience they have with christians or catholics.

We bow down before statues of the people in our hearts who are in heaven, recalling/acknowledging/celebrating their presence/love for us, we bow down to receive their blessings and prayers for us.

Ok. your statues give you blessings. I get that.
My question: why need the statues? They are so random and don't look like mary, jesus, etc anyway.
you receive blessings from mary? So apart god, how many other people and angels and saints and what have you that can give you blessings?

Everyone who loves can understand these things.

Everyone who loves to deceive themselves and to follow their whims and desires, as opposed to following God.

[Ramadhan]

We are also aware of those verse. We have them in our Catechism.

I didnt say you dont have those commandment verses, I said christians do not keep and follow them.
Big difference.

[Ramadhan]

"I don't worship idols, I only bow my head and prostrate in front of statues to receive blessings"

"I am a strict monotheist, but I worship a supreme God, a hybrid God-human and a ghost"

"I didn't steal, I only borrowed without the knowledge of the owner"


see the similarities?

[YieldedOne]

Note to self: Abuse of power is not cool.

^o)

[Darth Ultor]

Tell that to Obama.

[Predator]

Whatever, Airforce. All those were Arab names. In my Talmud, it doesn't say any of that.

Since when did Sanhedrin , become an Arab name . Whats this ? Another of your Jewish deceptions. ?

[YieldedOne]

Actually, Boaz, ALL leaders or administrators should know and live that truth. Obama included. :)

[Darth Ultor]

Since when did Sanhedrin , become an Arab name . Whats this ? Another of your Jewish deceptions. ?

I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get me to say something against Islam. Well, I don't feed the trolls. Go take anger management therapy.

[Amigo]

You are really a robot!!! :)

[Amigo]

Sorry I forgot to mention that that one is addressed to Naidamar

Naidamar; you are really a robot :), are robots allowed on this site to debate/discuss?

[Amigo]

Naidamar
I just realized that you may not understand what I mean by saying 'you are really a robot'. So I will give a short explanation. I was trying to apply your standard of judgment on you. See your avatar? what would thinking according to your logic conclude?

It does not help pretending that you don't understand what I mean. Even if you did not, people don't believe according to your standard. You do violence to yourself trying to fit people into your preconceived of them.

[Ramadhan]

You are really a robot!!!

Naidamar I just realized that you may not understand what I mean by saying 'you are really a robot'. So I will give a short explanation. I was trying to apply your standard of judgment on you. See your avatar? what would thinking according to your logic conclude? It does not help pretending that you don't understand what I mean. Even if you did not, people don't believe according to your standard. You do violence to yourself trying to fit people into your preconceived of them.

I am the big robot, now go and build statues and paintings of the big robot and worship those statues, and images, and likenesses.
I am sure you are pleased in worshipping the little robots, the painting robots, the half naked robots
Ok, in fact If you don't worship those statues, I will give you infractions. or you can give me infractions. Whatever pleases you.
You can also create other variety of robots and start worshiping them as well, if it pleases you. We will then have robots tournaments.
or not.





/sarcasm off
sheeeshh... when can we expect christians/catholics in this forum to really start thinking?

[May Ayob]

Also, I don't know why it says in the Quran that the Jews said the Priests are partners of God.

Peace be to you.

In the Quran it doesn't say that Priests are partners of God. The concept of shirk in Islam( Polytheism), Is considered:
-Obey, Worship, and Loyalty.
Now when the Qura'n was speaking about Partnership to God , it means that they treated their Rabis as Partners by listening to what the Rabis say even if it is not what God has Ordained.. There's a difference.
The Prophet was asked the same question by a fellow Jew who came to ask him about the verse you concluded your statement from the Prophet's answer was : "Did you not use to obey them when they commanded you to do something even though it is not what God has Prescribed? He( the jew)said : Yes, the Prophet said: Then that is worship and asociating partners with God"
The Concept of Worship and Asociating partners with God in Islam contains a lot of sentiments, Just because you don't bow down to them or physically worship them does not mean it is not Worship this is according to Islam.

At the time of the Holy Temple, you could get executed for uttering such blasphemy

No offense Bro, but saying that God has Partners is considered as Blasemphy and Claiming that God is Poor and we are the rich is not?
Claiming that the Father of Jews(Israel) "defeated" God in a wrestling battle is not? I don't know how that would make sense :/

The reason we don't invite is because we don't say our religion is the only one accepted by God. We don't focus on the salvation of our souls. We focus more on following God's commandments for right now. All of them. But we do accept people who come to us, we just inform them of the heavy responsibility.

So, Atheists, Agnostics, Budhhists, Hindus, Christians and Muslims.. etc will all go to Heaven?
I would like some evidence.. It would be a good thing if you gave me one please.

What propaganda are you basing this racial thing on?

Sorry , I might be prejudiced, But Is it not infamous that Jews are racist by all mean?
I read one passage of some Jewish scriptures sometime ago , and it said that literally people or rather creatures are divided into levels
and then the list went as being the Jews the most noblest race of all mankind, others, animals, then unfortunate people (like me) being the last on the list .. Any explanation? I would apreciate one..

Didn't mean to offend you in any way, and If I did then please accept my apologies..

[YM Usrah Umar]

Claiming that the Father of Jews(Israel) "defeated" God in a wrestling battle is not? I don't know how that would make sense :/

could u post the story about this please?

Sorry , I might be prejudiced, But Is it not infamous that Jews are racist by all mean?
I read one passage of some Jewish scriptures sometime ago , and it said that literally people or rather creatures are divided into levels
and then the list went as being the Jews the most noblest race of all mankind, others, animals, then unfortunate people (like me) being the last on the list .. Any explanation? I would apreciate one..

and also the verse to this plz

[May Ayob]

could u post the story about this please?

Salaam
Here:
Jacob was left alone. And a man (the Lord God) wrestled with him until eventually the breaking of the day. When the man (the Lord God) noticed that he did not prevail in opposition to Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was place out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Then he (the Lord God) explained, “Let me go, for the day has damaged.”
But Jacob said, “I will not permit you go unless of course you bless me.”
And he (the Lord God) explained to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.”
Then he (the Lord God) said, “Your identify shall no lengthier be named Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your identify.” But he (the Lord God) explained, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob known as the name of the location Peniel, stating,
“For I have noticed God deal with to face, and but my lifestyle has been delivered.”


This is what I would consider as Blasemphy as well.

and also the verse to this plz

Sorry, I read it a long time ago , When I was in High school , I can't find the verse nor am I sure of it's Accuracy, That's why I am asking Boaz Hoping that he will give me an answer...

Salaam

[YM Usrah Umar]

Salaam
Here:
Jacob was left alone. And a man (the Lord God) wrestled with him until eventually the breaking of the day. When the man (the Lord God) noticed that he did not prevail in opposition to Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was place out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Then he (the Lord God) explained, “Let me go, for the day has damaged.”
But Jacob said, “I will not permit you go unless of course you bless me.”
And he (the Lord God) explained to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.”
Then he (the Lord God) said, “Your identify shall no lengthier be named Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your identify.” But he (the Lord God) explained, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob known as the name of the location Peniel, stating,
“For I have noticed God deal with to face, and but my lifestyle has been delivered.”


This is what I would consider as Blasemphy as well.

wasalam, no offence to the jews but come on now...how degrading of our lord ALLAH!!

1) god became a man just for jacob
2) then god lost to him!!!? a human that he created and he lost to him!!!? come on now...
3) i dont understand why would god say “Why is it that you ask my name?”

is it me or are there lik grammer (whatever it is) errors etc?

[May Ayob]

wasalam, no offence to the jews but come on now...how degrading of our lord ALLAH!! 1) god became a man just for jacob 2) then god lost to him!!!? a human that he created and he lost to him!!!? come on now... 3) i dont understand why would god say “Why is it that you ask my name?” is it me or are there lik grammer (whatever it is) errors etc?

Salaam
This is why I am hoping Boaz answers the questions, maybe he will give a better understanding :/
Salaam

[Darth Ultor]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

[May Ayob]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

Why are you asking me? I am a Muslim not a Jew, But the Passage is clear it says (The Lord God)
It doesn't say he was an angel
Any explanations to the below?

Peace be to you

[Ramadhan]

Sorry, I read it a long time ago , When I was in High school , I can't find the verse nor am I sure of it's Accuracy, That's why I am asking Boaz Hoping that he will give me an answer...

Here:
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok.
After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions.
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip.
Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.
(Genesis 32:24-32)

So it is as clear as the day that in this passage, Jacob fought God and won. However, a christian might say that it is all metaphor and that Jacob struggled with his own self blah blah blah.
However, there are also christians who believe that Jacob fought Jesus (pbuh).
yeah, don't ask me.

If any of you have noticed, christians would use "metaphors" "allegory" or "parables" to refer to passages in bible arbitrarily and whenever it suit them.
Example: "son of god" is only a metaphor when applied to David (pbuh) , but it suddenly becomes literal when applied to Jesus (pbuh).

[YM Usrah Umar]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

If any of you have noticed, christians would use "metaphors" "allegory" or "parables" to refer to passages in bible arbitrarily and whenever it suit them.
Example: "son of god" is only a metaphor when applied to David (pbuh) , but it suddenly becomes literal when applied to Jesus (pbuh).

again no offence but when a christian or a jew response likes this.....its a shame seriously

[Grace Seeker]

I hadn't been in this thread before, when I first saw it there were already pages of posts, and I figured one more comment really wasn't needed. But I was curious if what was being presented with regard to Christianity was my understanding of the Christian faith or perhaps some sort of strawman. Well, even expecting to find a few points that I would disagree with I was still surprised to find something as egregiously wrong and even offensive as the following being the third post of the thread:

Dajjal is the Messiah of the Jews.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them, i.e. Prophet Muhamad Sallahu Alayhi Wasalam, but they reject him as prophet, so they still sit in wait for him.

I thought Jews believe that Musa Alayhi Salam was the son of God or something.. I read that in a very knowledgeable book, Stories of the Prophets.

Allah Alim.. Salaam

Without going into details, let me simply state: NONE OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE.



Gratefully, others did soon respond more thoughtfully:

some of what is being said here seems to be based on inadequate knowledge....I hope that we Muslims will have the decency to at least seek accurate knowledge of the others beliefs...ignorance and or prejudice is wrong.......

One error we make in speaking about christian beliefs is that much of what we speak of is Catholicism. the Catholic beliefs differ considerably from most of the other denominations.

Most of the Christian denominations of today came about after the 15th Century and most of the Bible only denominations (about 30,000 to date) came about after the 1850s.

We are somewhat out of date in understanding Christianity as to what it has become today.

If someone really wants to know what Christians believe, I can provide it from my own particular denomination's persepctive, but would probably want to start a new thread for that purpose. Would that be helpful? Would that even be acceptable given the forum guidelines?

[Grace Seeker]

I want to ask one question, I see great atheistic influence and tendency in western countries ( I know It is very explicit ), How Christianity can deal with that problem. I mean When We think as a Christian, Is there any hope or perspective ?

It doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of what Christians and Jews believe. Atheism seems to have gained a significiant foothold in the Deism of the Enlightment. Because the dominant culture was Christian many understood any belief in God to be equated with Christianity, but this wasn't really true. Ideas that were purely secular in nature began to put forth. Not all these ideas are anti-Christian, but many of them were certainly not Christian in origin. For instance, democracy is well-founded in western culture, but not of Christian origin, rather it goes back to Greek philosophy. In time, more and more people have been swayed by these post-Enlightenment and secular ways of thinking and that is the influence you see.


How does Christianity deal with this?
In some cases it merely accepts it as not being anti-Christian and so does not need to be opposed. But in other cases it is a problem and in churches there are splits that have occurred because some have followed the culture while others have argued that to do so is to abandoned Christ. The list of those things includes everything from the innocuous (at least so it appears to me) to truly egregious (again at least so it appears to me): whether to where a suit or jeans to worship, which English translation of the Bible to read from, old standard hymns or modern contemporary worship music, views on women in leadership, openness to gay lifestyle, different views with regard to abortion. And that's just to touch a few highlights.

And the truth is we don't deal with it well. Often the church is reactive rather than proactive. Sometimes it has reacted well. The idea of public education for the masses has its origins in the Sunday school which began in the 18th century as an attempt of the church to educated the children who were working in the coalmines of England. The children had Sunday off and went to the parish church to be taught their ABCs. Often it has reacted poorly defending something as terrible as slavery in the US because quite frankly the church members were themselves often slaveholders and had an economic incentive to continue the system.

Today the same process still goes on. Those who feel the Spirit moving them to speak to an issue lift up their prophetic voice as directed by God and try to encourage public debate, or at least debate within the church. Then it becomes something discussed by society as a whole. Eventually, society reaches some level of accomodation to the idea. This may or may not be acceptable to the church. (For instance, Santa Claus has become something commonly accepted in US culture, but often vilified in some churches.) And then the debate is either settled or enjoined again.

The most recent big example I can think of is a decision by the Evaneglical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) to allow for the ordination of homosexual pastors in the denomination but knowing that it was not universally agreed upon throughout the denomination allow individual congregations to decide for themselves whether they would endorse that decision in their own pulpits. Even that allowance did not go over well in many local churches and so there has been a split and a number of those congregations have separated from the ELCA to form a brand new denomination because of disagreement over this issue. So, you see, the process if often bloody as some Christians find acceptable what others see as unacceptable because of disagreements as to how they understand God to thinking with regard to a certain matter.

[Grace Seeker]

earlier in this thread, i mentioned a story (i tink its from judiasm) that god and a prophet fought with each other and the prophet beat god...is this true? if yes could you plz explain plz, post the verse/story plz?

</p>

The Story is about Prophet Job(pbuh) who struggled with Satan (according to Judaism) the point of the story being---why do good people suffer, and the answer according to Rabbi Maimonides---is that God's ways are always just even if we do not understand them.

</p>
Siam, I agree with your interpretation of Job, but I think that the story YM Usrah Umar is searching for is that of Jacob.

Genesis 22

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel*, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.



(*Genesis 32:28 'Israel' probably means 'he struggles with God'.)

Interpretation of this passage (both sound and unsound) is found extensively on the internet. If interested, I just encourage you to look for sermons with Jacob as the subject matter, for this is a watershed event in Jacob's life. His behavior before left much to be desired, but he becomes a different sort of person afterward, much more in keeping with what one would hope to find in a man of God.

[Grace Seeker]

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

The Christian Zionism that you spoke about in the same past from which this quote was taken is a reality. But it is about the term "Evangelical" I wished to post.

Evangelical Christianity is a huge camp encompassing lots of different sorts of Christians and sometimes even having different meanings depending on who is using and defining the term. Indeed, probably every Christian has identified himself as "evangelical" at some point in time, for it is taken from the Greek word "euangelion" which is typically translated into the word "Gospel" and literally means "good news."

So, you have to be careful not to make broad sweeping statements like, "Evangelicals believe ______________." Of any sort of statement like that made with regard to evangelicals: some probably do; many probably don't. For instance, I just recently got into a rather heated discussion over this term in another forum debating the question "Is the Evangelical church on the verge of a major heart attack?" One big problem in discussing the thread was that each poster had a different idea what was meant by the term "evangelical" -- some thought it applied to any Christian who proclaimed the Gospel, others want to use it for a particular subset of politically motivated and conservative-minded group of Christians and there were still other ideas, yet not one of us equated it with dispensationalism (though this also fits some evangelicals as well). So, you see just how dangerous it is to use that term, and yet the news media throws it around all the time.

But precisely because it is used so frequently by the media I don't think we can just throw up our hands at trying to understand the term altogether. Thus, I've taken to turning to a group known as the National Association of Evangelicals and find their self-identification as instructive to what is generally (but not always) meant by the term. Based upon there work, here is how I generally answer the question "What is an Evangelical?":


What is an Evangelical?

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.

Evangelicals are a vibrant and diverse group, including believers found in many churches, denominations and nations. The evangelical community brings together Reformed, Holiness (including Methodist), Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, and other traditions. Core theological convictions held in common within the evangelical community provide unity in the midst of great political, social, and cultural diversity.

Four primary characteristics of evangelicalism include:
1. Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a “born-again” experience and a life long process of following Jesus.
2. Biblicism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the primary authority
(This does not mean that one is necessarily a biblical literalist. Some evangelicals are, some are not. Also, some are biblicists to the point of emphasizing Scripture over both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but most are not.)
3. Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity
4. Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts
(This is important, minus activism that puts feet to the gospel, a person is not an evangelical in the fullest sense.)



It is these distinctives and theological convictions which define evangelicalism NOT political party, social agendas, cultural trends such as identifying someone as leftist or right-wing, nor even religous labels. In fact, many evangelicals rarely use the term “evangelical” to describe themselves, focusing simply on the core convictions of the triune God, the Bible, faith, Jesus, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship. Those who do these things, be they of whatever denomination, are Gospel people and therefore evangelical.

With regard to activism there are many types, most well known are probably those from the conservative right, such as the late Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" that advocate particular political agendas. Today James Dobson might also fit this mode. But for every James Dobson there is also a Tony Campollo who is also indeed a true evangelical, but his activism has a social agenda to it of improving the lot in life of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Presidents Carter, Reagan, Clinton and both Bushes were all evangelicals. As I said, it's a big camp.

[Grace Seeker]

yes of course bro there is but ther has to be religous background behind the fact that jews are so wealthy, yh u can say that they put alot of emphasis of education, theyv seem to be a community where they help each other out since what happened with hitler etc etc, many more that i may not know about but i think its stems way back....way back. in the quran allah said stay away from the pgi fat and the jews ignored this, and sold the pig fat

Actually, it isn't religious background as much as it is an accident of culture and history.



Up until the time of Alexander the Great Jews were largely confined to their strip of land known as Palestine. It would expand and shrink with the success of the kingdom and on occassion Jews were taken into exile to return later. But with the march of Alexander's armies Jews became dispersed throughout the Greek world. Religion enters in because the Jews were very dedicated to the preservation of Torah. Now understood properly, to keep Torah is not to preserve the written scrolls, but to practice the lifestyle described in them. It is to be a righteous person. But to know what that was one needed to be educated in Torah and the required being able to read. Thus Jews became one of the most literate cultures of the day, where even common folk could read, at least a little.

With the dispersion throughout the Greek world, the desire came that the scriptures needed to be translated to the common language. The Hebrew would be retained as primary in and around Israel, but Greek was used more and more frequently in synagogues elsewhere as most people were able to speak the native tongue of their community and Greek as the universal common language of the day. This was true even after the empire switched from Greek to Roman control -- more people in first century BCE and CE Rome actually spoke Greek than Latin. And Jews melted into these societies other than keeping their community intact through meeting in their synagogues which where in the language of the people.

Then in 70 CE Rome sacked Jerusalem, and the Greek diaspora became a national tragedy on an even larger scale. Jews were scattered not just across the empire, but throughout Europe.Most Jews, because they found themselves outsiders in a foreign and hostile lands, settled together for mutual support and protection. This time however, they decided that the only way to preserve Torah was to keep it in Hebrew. And so Jews became a group unto themselves, not mixing as they had before.

As Europe went through a period of time known as the dark ages, Jews were among the few groups of people that kept their traditions of reading and writing in practice. So, when Europe finally emerged from the medevial period, when cities as political entities began to emerge and kings and princes were looking for people who could assist them in governing their lands, they turned to the educated. These were either the clergy or the Jews.As many princes were asserting their political independence from the Holy Roman Empire, they were not interested in employing Catholic clergy, so they turned to the Jews to handle their affairs of state. As people began to seek to engage in international commerce, the Jews were again in position to facilitate that because they had retained their language for use in the synagogue. So, Spaniard and German merchants might not be able to talk to one another, but Spaniard and German Jews could.Over and over in so many walks of life being educated and having a common language placed Jews in postions of power and influence politically and in commerce. And accruing to that sort of advantage comes wealth. As a result were a source of capital when European countries began to look for ways to fund expeditions. The story goes that Queen Isabella pawned her jewels to fund Columbus' voyage to the New World. But who was the pawn broker? I don't know, but it had to be with someone who had wealth independent of the crown. Jews, or at least those who had done well for themselves in the preceeding centuries, would have again fit the bill.

Now, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that this is true of Jews as whole. Most were like everyone else, struggling to make ends meet, even destitute. But those few who had been in the right place at the right time in history were privileged to have access to power, position, influence and resources that in time would make them and their succeeding generations who continued to take advantage of this head start over the rest of the world exceedingly rich. And it is from these few isolated families that the myth of Jews being is born.

As evidence that it is a myth that Jews are rich, take a look at Jews that come from places other than Europe. The Jews of Africa are just as poor as their neighbors. Wealth is more a product of culture. In those cultures, such as Europe, that have grown quicker than others, being educated enabled the Jews to ride the crest of that expanding wealth that would slowly trickle down to most all. But in other places, Jews are no better off than anyone else.

[Grace Seeker]

The only real idols these days are the dollar, the euro, the pound, etc.

And football/futbol.

[Grace Seeker]

Yeah sure , you jews sure focus wellon following the commands [/sarcasm]

Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not kill

Which is why the israelis committing the biggest robbery of the 20th century.

Not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews. That which you complain about is Zionism, not Judaism. There is a difference.

[Grace Seeker]

I must say....I also fell into the trap of believing that &quot;Judeo-Christian&quot; Meta-narrative. Many Christians claim their concepts are found in the OT---a false claim.---Unless one totally distorts the OT into something unrecognizable by Jews......

It isn't a false claim that Christian concepts are found in the OT. I can show you illustration after illustration. But you are certainly right in saying that the Christian Church re-interpreted the OT in the light of its understanding of Jesus as the Messiah and went so far as to develop new ideas with regard to that Messiah that were no a part of the OT.

As to whether those interpretations so distort the OT into something unrecognizable by Jews, I don't know. I suppose there are going to be disagreements on that point. On some particulars that may be true, but I would not think on the whole. If it were, I do not think that there would be groups such as Messianic Jews that are followers of Jesus as the Messiah.

[YM Usrah Umar]

I hadn't been in this thread before, when I first saw it there were already pages of posts, and I figured one more comment really wasn't needed. But I was curious if what was being presented with regard to Christianity was my understanding of the Christian faith or perhaps some sort of strawman. Well, even expecting to find a few points that I would disagree with I was still surprised to find something as egregiously wrong and even offensive as the following being the third post of the thread:

Without going into details, let me simply state: NONE OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE.

NO OFFENCE TO THOSE WHO READ THIS, WHETHR CHRISTIAN OR JEW OR MUSLIM...IF I OFFEND PLZ FORGIVE ME.

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Believe it or not grace seeker, thers hadiths (sayings of the prophet muhammed (pbuh) about the above mentioned points and they are in agreement

[Grace Seeker]

YM Usrah Umar, what you posted above are not offensive. The summaries provided are classical understandings of the end times held by Christians, whether or not they are held by Jews I will let them speak for themselves. But they have nothing to do with that post which I said was offensive and untrue.

Dajjal is the Messiah of the Jews.

I had to look up the term "Dajjal" where I learned it is an Islamic term for the anti-Christ.
Well given that Christ is an English word derived from a Greek word meaning Messiah. It is like saying that the Anti-Messiah is the Messiah of the Jews. That is just a nonsense statement. Enough said.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them

You've heard it from Boaz that Jews are not waiting on a Prophet from Arabia. I'm telling you that neither are Christians.

Now you can believe what it is that a Christian and a Jew have each told you with regard to our beliefs, or you can believe something written by a source that has led even many Muslims in this thread to suggest you need to seek a better source than this one.

, i.e. Prophet Muhamad Sallahu Alayhi Wasalam, but they reject him as prophet, so they still sit in wait for him.

This is the one thing that is right, on the whole (though there are always a few individual exceptions) Jews and Christians do reject Muhammad (pbuh) as being a prophet of either Judaism or Christianity, and most would even reject that he is a prophet at all. And while Jews may still wait for the arrival of their Messiah, Christians believe he already has come. Also Christians believe that prophecy is a gift that God gives to many. Most think that it continues to be bestowed by God on people even to this day, but not in the way that Muslims think of a person as a prophet.

I thought Jews believe that Musa Alayhi Salam was the son of God or something.. I read that in a very knowledgeable book, Stories of the Prophets.

No! No where, no time, by no one, no how. Jews believe nothing of the sort!! If you read that in a book, then it was not as knowledgable of a book as you supposed. Even if it accidently got something else right, this is such a big error I wouldn't trust anything else you read in this book. Throw it away and learn to be more discerning in the sources you trust.

Oh, and of course, NO OFFENCE TO THOSE WHO READ THIS, WHETHR CHRISTIAN OR JEW OR MUSLIM...IF I OFFEND PLZ FORGIVE ME.

[YM Usrah Umar]

YM Usrah Umar, what you posted above are not offensive. The summaries provided are classical understandings of the end times held by Christians, whether or not they are held by Jews I will let them speak for themselves. But they have nothing to do with that post which I said was offensive and untrue.

just out of curiosity...the jews follow the old testament right?

[Darth Ultor]

Yes that is correct.

[Muslom]

Interpretation of this passage (both sound and unsound) is found extensively on the internet. If interested, I just encourage you to look for sermons with Jacob as the subject matter, for this is a watershed event in Jacob's life. His behavior before left much to be desired, but he becomes a different sort of person afterward, much more in keeping with what one would hope to find in a man of God.

Peace be to you
Sorry, Are you actually claiming that Prophet Jacob pbuh become an indecent man because of this?
You know you have to be careful just because you are christian it does not give you the right to disregard other men who are in the Eyes of God maybe better than you by all means, you should stay away from this as I am more than sure that prophet Christ (PBUH) wouldn't approve of any one who claims to follow him to make such statements in the name of following his teachings.

Peace be to you

[Muslom]

You've heard it from Boaz that Jews are not waiting on a Prophet from Arabia. I'm telling you that neither are Christians. Now you can believe what it is that a Christian and a Jew have each told you with regard to our beliefs, or you can believe something written by a source that has led even many Muslims in this thread to suggest you need to seek a better source than this one.

Peace be to you

Where does it say that Jews and Christians are waiting for a prophet from Arabia?
The Prophet PBUH was sent to all mankind regardless of what you beleive.
Also, I think there is a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus was only sent for Israels miguided "****" - I don't think it's a nice word to mention.

Also Christians believe that prophecy is a gift that God gives to many. Most think that it continues to be bestowed by God on people even to this day, but not in the way that Muslims think of a person as a prophet.

What you think and what other Christians or followers of other religions think can not be imposed on God almighty, We Muslims also believe that prophecy is a gift God give to many of His Pious servants, there is a difference between a Prophet and a Messenger.
Just because someone claims to read the future or He has witnessed GOd or God has "Spoken" to them does not mean they are saying the Truth. Does not mean they really are prophets and it definatley does not mean that what you said has any relevance, It is best to stop coming and discussing this indoctrine issues because they were not even there when Prophet Christ PBUH was alive, and I am sure if he came back today the last thing he would do is go and greet one of whom you call to be "blessed" by the "Father"(God the Creator) It is quite dissapointing to see this coming from followers of Christ it really is you guys know exactly how to make someone have the wrong image of the True Christ PBUH.

Please don't discuss with me anything other because by all honesty I do not recognize any of these Christian indoctrines and I am sure Christ wouldn't recognize them either. In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported.

Peace be to you

[Darth Ultor]

Aren't all messengers prophets?

[Muslom]

Aren't all messengers prophets?

No, they are not there is a big difference between a Messenger and A Prophet:
To give you a brief explanation: A Messenger is on a higher rank because He was sent by God with Teachings ( either a Book or a scripture) to a certain group and he establishes a religion according to the Law that God has given him at that time.
For Example: Moses, Jesus these are Messengers and Prophets
A Messenger must essentially be a Prophet but the same does not go for a Prophet he does not have to be a Messenger.
A Prophet : Is one who receives revelations from God , either through and Angel or Visions such as Jacob , Joeseph, Job..etc

I hope I made it clearer.

Peace be to you

[Muslom]

Aren't all messengers prophets?

Yes, they are but there is a big difference between a Messenger and A Prophet:
To give you a brief explanation: A Messenger is on a higher rank because He was sent by God with Teachings ( either a Book or a scripture) to a certain group and he establishes a religion according to the Law that God has given him at that time.
For Example: Moses, Jesus these are Messengers and Prophets
A Messenger must essentially be a Prophet but the same does not go for a Prophet he does not have to be a Messenger.
A Prophet : Is one who receives revelations from God , either through and Angel or Visions such as Jacob , Joeseph, Job..etc

So , all Messengers are Prophets in first place but not all Prophets are Messengers.
I hope I made it clearer.

Peace be to you

[JOHNJOHN]

Yes, they are but there is a big difference between a Messenger and A Prophet:
To give you a brief explanation: A Messenger is on a higher rank because He was sent by God with Teachings ( either a Book or a scripture) to a certain group and he establishes a religion according to the Law that God has given him at that time.
For Example: Moses, Jesus these are Messengers and Prophets
A Messenger must essentially be a Prophet but the same does not go for a Prophet he does not have to be a Messenger.
A Prophet : Is one who receives revelations from God , either through and Angel or Visions such as Jacob , Joeseph, Job..etc

So , all Messengers are Prophets in first place but not all Prophets are Messengers.
I hope I made it clearer.

Peace be to you

HI Muslom


I would like to clarify something.

We all agree that a Nabi = Prophete
and a Rassoul = messenger

For you a prophete can not reiceive a book ?

you say that all prophete are not messenger if they are not messenger they are sent by who ? the word rassoul comes from the word arssala wich means sent.

Correct me if I am wrong.


Peace.

[جوري]

from the word arssala wich means sent.

The word Risala means =
Babylon Arabic-English رسالة
n. letter, despatch, message, dispatch, missive, writing, bill, brief, epistle, tractate, treatise, mission

best

[JOHNJOHN]

HI τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


thank you for the translation.:embarrass

[جوري]

HI τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


thank you for the translation.:embarrass

greetings,
Not a problem, I am not actually following this thread, I just read your post and wanted to give proper Arabic translation.

best,

[Grace Seeker]

[/B]
Peace be to you
Sorry, Are you actually claiming that Prophet Jacob pbuh become an indecent man because of this?

That's not what I said. I suggest you read again what I actually did say: Jacob's behavior (prior to, previous to) this incident record in Genesis 32 (i.e incidents in Jacobs life that are recorded in Genesis 25-31) leave much to be desired (i.e. much that could be improved upon). But after this what you read about Jacob is much better.

You know you have to be careful just because you are christian it does not give you the right to disregard other men who are in the Eyes of God maybe better than you by all means, you should stay away from this as I am more than sure that prophet Christ (PBUH) wouldn't approve of any one who claims to follow him to make such statements in the name of following his teachings.

Peace be to you

As opposed to those who don't know Christ, but are sure that they know what he would and wouldn't not approve of.

[May Ayob]

As opposed to those who don't know Christ, but are sure that they know what he would and wouldn't not approve of.

I don't want to interrupt your reply
But I thought Christ was for "everyone"?
According to that I think Muslom does believe that Christ is a messenger and Just like you Love Christ , Every Muslims Loves Him too.
So no need to say these things as what matters is what God Judges and not what we Judge

Peace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

Peace be to you
Where does it say that Jews and Christians are waiting for a prophet from Arabia?

It doesn't. And I didn't say it either. Do you know who did say it? One of your brothers in Islam.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them

And of course he is wrong in making that assertion. It is his error that I was correcting.

You may not believe or accept Christian doctrine. Fine. But if you are going to declare that Christians supposedly believe something get it right. Don't say that we believe something that we don't. I think we know what we believe better than you do.

Just because someone claims to read the future or He has witnessed GOd or God has "Spoken" to them does not mean they are saying the Truth.

I totally concur. But are you willing to accept that as a truth that can be applied across the board?

In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported.

Peace be to you

If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim. Thank-you for sharing your views.

[May Ayob]

But are you willing to accept that as a truth that can be applied across the board?

Well I am , And believe me , I know many things about Christianity since my childhood, Let's Focus on what we have in common and not our differences because just as you don't want to compromise your religion others don't want to as well , I as a Muslim can not claim that I am 100% on the truth I don't have that confidence and I leave it up to God to Judge what is right and what is wrong

Peace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

A Messenger must essentially be a Prophet but the same does not go for a Prophet he does not have to be a Messenger.
A Prophet : Is one who receives revelations from God , either through and Angel or Visions such as Jacob , Joeseph, Job..etc

I hope I made it clearer.

Peace be to you

So , all Messengers are Prophets in first place but not all Prophets are Messengers.

Ah, so a prophet might just receive a revelation from God, but never themselves share it with others? Because sharing it with others would in fact make them a messenger. This is true because the definition of "messenger" is "one who delivers a message." Thus the only way for a prophet to not be a messenger would be to not deliver any message associated with whatever revelation you claim they have received. That concept (which I personally find ridiculous) is what you have succeeded in making clear.

[May Ayob]

Ah, so a prophet might just receive a revelation from God, but never themselves share it with others? Because sharing it with others would in fact make them a messenger. This is true because the definition of "messenger" is "one who delivers a message." Thus the only way for a prophet to not be a messenger would be to not deliver any message associated with whatever revelation you claim they have received. That concept (which I personally find ridiculous) is what you have succeeded in making clear.

I don't know what you find ridicoulous in what Muslom said
Muslom did not say the Prophets do not share their message , she said the difference is that a prophet does not have mission like messengers do, You do acknowledge that there is a difference between Moses and Job in their Prophecies,Right?
This is what Msulom had said was based on I 'think' as I can not speak on Muslom's behalf.
Pace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

I don't want to interrupt your reply
But I thought Christ was for "everyone"?

Indeed Christ is for everyone. But not everyone knows Christ. That is while Christ might offer himself unconditionally to all, not all accept that offer.

According to that I think Muslom does believe that Christ is a messenger and Just like you Love Christ , Every Muslims Loves Him too.
So no need to say these things as what matters is what God Judges and not what we Judge

Peace be to you

I have no problem with what you say here. Of course I believe the Jesus is more than just a messenger, but that is for another thread. As for what Muslom posted, Christ is not just a person of history, but continues to interact with those who belong to him today. The Holy Spirit makes Christ known to those who belong to Christ. Unfortunately, there are many others in this world who close themselves off to the Spirit's presence and operation in their lives. Unless one is in a living and active relationship with Christ, I don't understand how one can say that he/she is aquainted with Christ. This is what we mean when we say that we "know" someone. Not that we have read about them in a book, but that we are in communication with them. I know of no Muslim, however much they claim to love Christ, who claims to have active communication with Christ and so they can't really claim to know him, only to know of him. There is a difference. And that difference precludes one from saying as Muslom did say:

I am more than sure that prophet Christ (PBUH) wouldn't approve of...

Without knowing Christ, he can't be sure what Christ would or would not approve of, what Christ would or would not say, what Christ would or would not do.

[May Ayob]

Ah, so a prophet might just receive a revelation from God, but never themselves share it with others? Because sharing it with others would in fact make them a messenger. This is true because the definition of "messenger" is "one who delivers a message." Thus the only way for a prophet to not be a messenger would be to not deliver any message associated with whatever revelation you claim they have received. That concept (which I personally find ridiculous) is what you have succeeded in making clear.

I don't see what is ridiculous in what Musloms had said?
Muslom did not say that the Prophets do not share their message, Muslom said that the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger is that one is sent on a mission like Moses , or Noah PBUH
You do acknowledge the difference between Moses in and Job in terms of Prophecy , Right?
I think Muslims Jews and Christians can all agree that there was a difference between Moses ( a Messenger and a prophet) and Job( a Prophet but not a Messenger)

Peace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know what you find ridicoulous in what Muslom said
Muslom did not say the Prophets do not share their message , she said the difference is that a prophet does not have mission like messengers do, You do acknowledge that there is a difference between Moses and Job in their Prophecies,Right?
This is what Msulom had said was based on I 'think' as I can not speak on Muslom's behalf.
Pace be to you

But if prophets do share their message then, by definition, they are in fact messengers, for what makes a person into a messenger is the process of delivering a message.

That is what I found ridiculous. Muslom attempts to make a distinction of roles where the language itself will allow none. I understand that you want to cast their missions differently. That's fine. But even if their mission is different than that of those who have the title of Messenger. Prophets, by virtue of doing exactly what you have described them as doing are in effect messengers as well. And to say that they deliver such a message, but are not messengers because I want to use that term exclusively for a different group of people is what I call ridiculous. It might be true in Arabic, but not in English for in English one who delivers a message is a messenger.

You're serving as a messenger when you share with me what you think Muslom has intended to say. I cannot change the language to make it say something else other than what it says -- those who deliver messages (i.e. "I received this revelation from God") are by the very process of delivering a message messengers.

[Darth Ultor]

A messenger has to have a book revealed to him I think. By the way, are there any female prophets?

[جوري]

But I thought Christ was for "everyone"?

Not really, christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel: "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24
in fact all messengers were sent to their specific people except for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) who was sent to all of mankind!

:w:

[جوري]

By the way, are there any female prophets?

females are mothers to prophets, however Mary had a very high status and a few others had a very honorable status and mention!
a prophet's job isn't easy, they take much abuse and are often murdered, tortured and mocked by their people..


best

[Grace Seeker]

Not really, christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel: "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24
in fact all messengers were sent to their specific people except for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) who was sent to all of mankind!

:w:

I understand that this is the Islamic understanding of Jesus' role based on a narrow interpretation of this verse, but it is a variance from the Christian understanding of his role which reads this individual verse in the broader context of the whole of his life and ministry.

[Grace Seeker]

A messenger has to have a book revealed to him I think.

That addition brings clarity to the issue that was missing from Muslom's original post that made messengers the revealer of a message and prophets sharing the message of the revelation they received, but still not being seen as a messenger. With this addition, of having to have a book revealed to them, there is then a technical use of the term "messenger" that is unique to Islam.

[جوري]

I understand that this is the Islamic understanding of Jesus' role based on a narrow interpretation of this verse, but it is a variance from the Christian understanding of his role which reads this individual verse in the broader context of the whole of his life and ministry.

There is nothing narrow about the view considering first and foremost the term 'only' as per verse and secondly as per the message.. Jesus didn't establish a system comparable to that of Moses or Mohammed nor did he (per christian understanding) even keep the commandments of the OT with regards to the Sabbath, circumcision, fast, prayer, or other prohibitions discussed here so often it has become stale to repeat. A Messenger/prophet has to establish an entire system (the system of God) Jesus per you died and couldn't in fact even choose effectual apostles as such he had to abrogate his commandments in a clandestine fashion through a shady character (Saul) .. This is blatantly obvious to everyone but apparently not the average christian or even the learned amongst them, one wonders why they choose to avert their vision to what is so blatantly obvious..

best,

[May Ayob]

If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim. Thank-you for sharing your views.

Is it me or My post was deleted??
Any way
Ofcourse It is True!
I could ask you the same question:
What do you say about a bad Christian who did not apply/follow Christ PBUH teachings , and another non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience?
Would God sentence the Christian to Hell for only 3 days and then take him to Heaven just because they are Christian??
That wouldn't be fair , We must all regardless of our religious background belive in God's Justice.
And God does account people according to their deeds and heart(intentions) and God gives Heaven to whoever He wills regardless of our pre-conceived thoughts about who and who isn't going to Heaven or Hell
I didn't bring this from myself , There are many verses in the Quran that confirm this also many Hadeeth - Sayings of the Prophet PBUH.

Peace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

Is it me or My post was deleted??

I don't know. What post do you think was deleted?

When I said: "If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim." I was commenting on Muslom's statement: "In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported."

I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

May Ayob, you say: "Of course It is True!" I wonder how many of your fellow Muslims would agree with that assertion. If this is Islam, it is new to me.

I could ask you the same question:
What do you say about a bad Christian who did not apply/follow Christ PBUH teachings , and another non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience?
Would God sentence the Christian to Hell for only 3 days and then take him to Heaven just because they are Christian??

This is NOT the same question.

As to the respective scenarios you posit, you haven't provided enough information to be able to answer the question.

What do you mean by "bad" Christian? No Christians are not as good of a Christian as we should be. We all fall short of God's standard for our lives. That is why we are dependent on what God does to rescue us, not we do to rescue ourselves. If it was up to what we did and our own "goodness" none would be saved.


And likewise, what do you mean by a non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience? As I've already said, none is good enough to be saved. And the following of the human heart and conscience is a very dangerous thing. The scriptures tell of a time when the people of Israel did just that and it was a time of great lawlessness, unrighteousness, and being far from God.

I don't see either of the cases that you presented having much hope in them apart from God's grace to save people despite our failings. And fortunately that is indeed what Christians believe is true about God, that he accepts our willingness to trust in him and his righteousness and counts it toward us so that his righteousness is applied to our lives.

Is this fair? No, it is not. But God's justice and human fairness are not the same thing, for his ways are not our ways.

And God does account people according to their deeds and heart(intentions)

So you say.

and God gives Heaven to whoever He wills regardless of our pre-conceived thoughts about who and who isn't going to Heaven or Hell

Again, so you say. And this time the Bible just happens to say the same thing. He does indeed will what he wills. And we can point to all the verses we want, God is still going to be God his way, not yours or mine.

I didn't bring this from myself , There are many verses in the Quran that confirm this also many Hadeeth - Sayings of the Prophet PBUH.

A book and collection of sayings that I don't think are near as authoritative as what I understand to be the Word of God.

Peace be to you

And to you as well.

[Ramadhan]

When I said: "If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim." I was commenting on Muslom's statement: "In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported." I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

Again, GS came to the forum pretending he doesn't understand even the most basic teachings of Islam and twist other people's comments out of context. I read Muslom's statement again, it does NOT say that deeds and intentions are the ONLY things that will be judged and it does NOT say that deeds and intentions are the ONLY qualifications to determine our fate in the hereafter.

This is the qualification of those who will be among the fortunate ones, as has been repeatedly mentioned in the Qur'an: "Those who believe and do good deeds"

Intentions (niyat) and actions only cover the "do good deeds" part. And no, you are not among the believers if you are a methodist (because you worship a man as God), which is your professional church.

[May Ayob]

I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

Peace be to you

Islam is a Relgion and God is not
A Muslim can be destined to Hell fire whether they like it or not, Also a devoted worshipping Muslim can also be sentenced to Hell fire wether they like it or not, I , You The fellow Muslims, Christian, Jews ...etc Do not comprehend the Mind of our Creator.- This is one Point. Second If this is so true what you are saying then why in the Qura'n Does Jesus say when speaking to God in the day of Judgement about the people who used to worship him:
118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise."
Do you read the :and if You forgive them,
Forgiveness is also an option that Jesus PBUH requests.
But it is up to our Creator to decide who deserves to go to Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell
I'll just give another verse to show you that Diversity in religion and religious debates is not a commended deed or thing to do in Islam as it is only God who Judges in the Day of Judgement.

34. And for every nation We have appointed religious ceremonies, that they may mention the Name of Allâh over the beast of cattle that He has given them for food. And your Ilâh (God) is One Ilâh (God Allâh), so you must submit to Him Alone (in Islâm). And (O Muhammad SAW) give glad tidings to the Mukhbitin [those who obey Allâh with humility and are humble from among the true believers of Islâmic Monotheism],
118. And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one Ummah [nation or community (following one religion only i.e. Islâm)], but they will not cease to disagree,-
93. And had Allâh willed, He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you used to do.

62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

You Me and anyone else is not a Qualified Judge for these things. It is better to compete in Good. and Have Trust in the Mercy and Justice of Our Lord.

Is this fair? No, it is not. But God's justice and human fairness are not the same thing, for his ways are not our ways.

So , in God's eyes it is fair to make an innocent scapegoat to be responsible of my selfish and foolish sins , rather than Respecting our Creator and Honestly admit my faults, mistakes and sins. I do not think I would ever want to even imagine God in this perspective.

So you say.

No I don't say, The Quran says and the Prophet PBUH says. Why is it so hard to believe

A book and collection of sayings that I don't think are near as authoritative as what I understand to be the Word of God.

With all due to respect, But a book that was fabricated and stripped out of it's orginal essence is considered to be a Word of God and Another Book which has never been mis-qouted or corrupted isn't. I do not deny the Legitimacy of the Bible , The Qura'n mentions it as the Book which is true that is was the word of God and does still have some bits of the Original inspiration but even some of your fellow Christian experties denied that it was fully the Word of God.

Peace be to you

[Grace Seeker]

Peace be to you

Islam is a Relgion and God is not

Yes, I understand this. The same could be said of every religion. They are in fact religions. God is not a religion. God is not Muslim, Christian, or any other religion. God is God. I have no argument with this.

My argument remains that Muslom's logic produces a conclusion that it matters not whether one is Muslim or not. Perhaps it really doesn't matter to followers of Islam whether a person is or is not a Muslim. I thought it did. I'm frequently told that my good deeds aren't enough because I happen to believe in what you call shirk. But if, as Muslom claimed, what matters is one's deeds. Then what matters is one's deeds, not shirk. If you object to that conclusion, then you also object to Muslom's statement for that is in fact the logical conclusion of what was said.

So , in God's eyes it is fair to make an innocent scapegoat to be responsible of my selfish and foolish sins , rather than Respecting our Creator and Honestly admit my faults, mistakes and sins. I do not think I would ever want to even imagine God in this perspective.

What innocent scapegoat? Jesus is innocent, but not a scapegoat. Remember that thing called shirk you accuse us Christians of. We believe that God isn't sending a scapegoat, God is himself suffering to redeem us back for himself. Yes, he pays the price for our sin.

If you don't like the idea of God being one who suffers as a result of our sin, tell me does anyone at all pay the price of sin in the Islamic understanding of salvation. If one has sinned against God (and ultimately any sinner against any aspect of God's creation is ultimately a sin against God in addition to any others that may also be effected by that sin), and then God forgives it. Who is injured/effected by the sin and who pays for it? Real forgivenss would include the cancelling of any debt or obligation that might be owed as a result of the sin (that or it isn't real forgivness). So, if people don't pay the price of sin, and if sin still has some sort of cost to it, then the only one left to bear that cost is God. Again, you may not like that idea, but it is the logical conclusion of the Islamic argument regarding forgiveness.

So, whether we are talking Christianity or Islam, both have God bearing the cost of human sins.

No I don't say, The Quran says and the Prophet PBUH says. Why is it so hard to believe

It's hard to believe because I don't have the same confidence in the Qur'an that you do.

With all due to respect, But a book that was fabricated and stripped out of it's orginal essence is considered to be a Word of God and Another Book which has never been mis-qouted or corrupted isn't. I do not deny the Legitimacy of the Bible , The Qura'n mentions it as the Book which is true that is was the word of God and does still have some bits of the Original inspiration but even some of your fellow Christian experties denied that it was fully the Word of God.

As I don't see the Qur'an the same way you do, you obviously don't see the Bible the same way that I do.

Peace be to you

Indeed, though we continue to disagree over what we do and do not have confidence in and have different perspectives on the best source for truth about God, it changes nothing in my wish that you might indeed find the peace that you seek.

[May Ayob]

Indeed, though we continue to disagree over what we do and do not have confidence in and have different perspectives on the best source for truth about God, it changes nothing in my wish that you might indeed find the peace that you seek.

I also hope you find the Peace and Grace that you are seeking

[M.I.A.]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

a most common answer to a question about where god is etc etc
is that his "knowledge" is everywhere.

its a point of conjecture but i could draw the comparison that his angels are his knowledge manifest.

it gives a strange view to christian beliefs of inspired writing.

although there is no proof and much room for debate.

the prophet mohammed pbuh was the seal of the prophets, meaning no further revelation of scripture or expansion on the religion we follow.

but does that mean that allah swt's knowledge is no longer here? no it does not.

a know its a topsy turvy analogy but its something to help keep an open mind about things.

feel free to deconstruct.