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GuestFellow
04-16-2011, 12:23 AM
:sl:

I have been thinking...sometimes when you learn stories from the Qur'an or even the Bible, did you ever doubt their authenticity? For example, Angels, Jinns, etc. I admit I did not take them seriously when I was agnostic; I used to find them amusing. I associated them with fantasy stories and movies.

At the time I did not understood why I used to do that until now. I suspect many writers and film makers get their ideas from religion. These people get ideas from religious, cultural and historical sources and create fiction out of them. So when you read books or watch movies or play computer games based on fantasy, you know that it is not true but you then start to associate with your own religious beliefs...

I will use my example again. None of us know what an angel looks like but in movies, books or computer games, angels look like humans with big white wings. So could this have an affect on people that view Islam or Christianity when it talks about angels?

Has anyone else experience what I've written? Is this why many people do not take religion seriously because they start to associate fictional stories to religious stories?

Share your views...
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LavaDog
04-16-2011, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
when you learn stories from the Qur'an or even the Bible, did you ever doubt their authenticity? For example, Angels, Jinns, etc

Yeah I understand what you mean. The Buraq thing is still something I can't completly say I believe in. Plus from some of the posts on this site as soon as someone hears a bump in the night they blame it on a jinn. I have sleep paralysis but I have never thought that it might be a jinn.

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Has anyone else experience what I've written? Is this why many people do not take religion seriously because they start to associate fictional stories to religious stories?
I think some people stop believing in christianity because of santa claus. If your told a fat man delivers presents all around the world with the help of magic deer and are later told he is not real Its hard to believe a jewish carpenter that cast out demons and healed the sick.
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GuestFellow
04-16-2011, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by LavaDog

I think some people stop believing in christianity because of santa claus. If your told a fat man delivers presents all around the world with the help of magic deer and are later told he is not real
Well this proves my point. Santa is a fictional character associated with Christmas and Christmas is part of Christianity. I highly doubt Santa is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So some people associated a fictional character with religion, when really both have nothing to do with each other.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-16-2011, 10:57 AM
wa alaykum us-Salaam
No, becuase one who has firm belief in Allah, will not see the angels and matters of the unseen, etc as fantasy or even associate such with them. we take our lessons from the stories of the Prophets, we understand our beliefs better by knowing what the characteristics about the angels are, etc. So, if anything, it takes one from fantasy to reality.

perhaps someone who has received misinformation about these types of matters, may associate such things with fantasy. that's a possibility. other than that, i dont think so.
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GuestFellow
04-16-2011, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
wa alaykum us-Salaam
No, becuase one who has firm belief in Allah, will not see the angels and matters of the unseen, etc as fantasy or even associate such with them. we take our lessons from the stories of the Prophets, we understand our beliefs better by knowing what the characteristics about the angels are, etc. So, if anything, it takes one from fantasy to reality.
:sl:

Yes, I agree that a Muslim that has a firm belief in Allah will never associate Islamic beliefs with fictional ideas.

It is not just Muslims that this topic is concerned with. I'm trying to find an explanation to why some Atheists cannot take religious ideas seriously and I think they are associating fictional ideas with religious themes.

perhaps someone who has received misinformation about these types of matters, may associate such things with fantasy. that's a possibility. other than that, i dont think so.
I think some Muslims do it unintentionally. They may have watched a movie or read a book based on fantasy and then start learning about Islam. When they learn about Angels or Jinns, they may not take them seriously because these beliefs have been distorted by the media.

I think this is one of the reasons why some scholars prohibit drawing pictures of human and animals. People may, unintentionally, have a distorted view of religious beliefs based upon fictional characters...
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Cabdullahi
04-16-2011, 01:18 PM
'if the mind is over-simulated with the unnatural....the natural has no effect'
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Trumble
04-16-2011, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow

At the time I did not understood why I used to do that until now. I suspect many writers and film makers get their ideas from religion. These people get ideas from religious, cultural and historical sources and create fiction out of them. So when you read books or watch movies or play computer games based on fantasy, you know that it is not true but you then start to associate with your own religious beliefs...
I think that has to be true. Ideas have to come from somewhere, either directly or indirectly, and where else but from your own - or other peoples' that you have studied - cultural and religious backgrounds, and associated mythologies. Tolkien, for example, stressed the point that his primary influences were Nordic and Celtic myths and was forever denying that LotR was the deliberate analogy of the situation in Europe during and immediately after WW2 most reviewers claimed it was. Major Indian works such as the Ramayana and Mahabarata are themselves religious works as much as stories (and vice versa). Chinese classics like Wu Cheng'en's 'Journey to the West' and Shi Naian's 'Outlaws of the Marsh' (better known in the West as 'Monkey' and 'The Water Margin', respectively) are hugely influenced by not just religion but religions, Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism and mythologies linked with the former in particular. And so on.

The Bible, in particular, is itself also full of stories rather than history. I don't mean by 'stories' to imply they are necessarily untrue or exaggerated, but they are clearly designed to be presented as stories to what would originally have been listeners rather than readers in order keep their attention long enough to get their particular message across. The parables of Jesus are simply a rather more focussed version of the same approach.
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Asiyah3
04-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
wa alaykum us-Salaam
No, becuase one who has firm belief in Allah, will not see the angels and matters of the unseen, etc as fantasy or even associate such with them. we take our lessons from the stories of the Prophets, we understand our beliefs better by knowing what the characteristics about the angels are, etc. So, if anything, it takes one from fantasy to reality.
I concur. Angels, jinns etc. are part of our belief in the unseen. Our beliefs, knowledge and the way we "see" them are based on what we've been informed in the Qur'aan and Ahaadeeth.
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IAmZamzam
04-16-2011, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I'm trying to find an explanation to why some Atheists cannot take religious ideas seriously and I think they are associating fictional ideas with religious themes.
Plain and simple snootiness, of course. Mostly it's just something they use to mock religion, as they have since the dawn of history

When our signs are recited to him, he says, "Fairy-tales of the ancients!" No indeed; but that they were earning has rusted upon their hearts. (Koran 83:13-14, Arberry)

Their minds are self-trained to automatically label anything even remotely supernatural as "superstition". Claims of things validating religion or religious stories have their own haughty jargon response dependent entirely on whether the insult is face-to-face or not: if they're talking to a person who claims to have had a religious experience or to have seen an angel or etc. then the magic, all-excusing term is "anecdotal evidence", as though they were hearing someone use a story for deductive reasons in a formal debate or something. You'll notice the one and only difference between something just being that "anecdotal evidence" they can automatically dismiss without a second thought is whether or not it is happened to their own selves, in which case, whether or not they believe in their experience, suddenly the phrase stops being used. If it is a complete third-party stranger or theoretical case then the dismissive jargon switches to "magical thinking", claims of hallucination or dishonesty in a person whose mind and "thinking" they still know nothing about, or of course "superstition". Atheists are nothing without their pet words, or at least their arguments aren't. They've invested far too much in them.

In short, they compare God to Santa Claus and to invisible pink unicorns for two simple reasons: (1) because they get their kicks out of making fun of us poor stupid crazy believers. (2) Because in addition to being childish enough to make a preschooler's analogies in the first place they also think that one genuinely is no more realistic than the other and that by showing us the comparison we might somehow see the light. "Oh I get it now! God is just like a flying spaghetti monster!"
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
04-16-2011, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
:sl:

I have been thinking...sometimes when you learn stories from the Qur'an or even the Bible, did you ever doubt their authenticity? For example, Angels, Jinns, etc. I admit I did not take them seriously when I was agnostic; I used to find them amusing. I associated them with fantasy stories and movies.

At the time I did not understood why I used to do that until now. I suspect many writers and film makers get their ideas from religion. These people get ideas from religious, cultural and historical sources and create fiction out of them. So when you read books or watch movies or play computer games based on fantasy, you know that it is not true but you then start to associate with your own religious beliefs...

I will use my example again. None of us know what an angel looks like but in movies, books or computer games, angels look like humans with big white wings. So could this have an affect on people that view Islam or Christianity when it talks about angels?

Has anyone else experience what I've written? Is this why many people do not take religion seriously because they start to associate fictional stories to religious stories?

Share your views...
Assalaamu Alaaykum

I know a group who use the same or has the same thinking, and they usually use it to mock.

I personally never doubt the authencity but instead it got me thinking and got me to learn more.

It almost reminds me of people who have never heard of Jinn, but instead they name them 'ghosts', there are people who believe that the ghosts are something when people die and come back as ghosts, i wonder where this belief came from.

As far as i am aware, according to Qur'aan angels are made of light, they have also appeared as a man on earth according to the Noble Qur'aan. I must say i find their mention in the Qur'aan to be amazing, there are those who may find it to be fairy tale, but the truth is it is actually the media who has done that or man and their imagination for most of it. The best way i can put it is that Allaah is able to do everything. You can look at the creation of Allaah and think it is amazing, but yet you dont know how it was created, what technique, skills etc were used in making it unimagineable. For example see the sky, it looks beautiful, it is impossible for man to create such a thing/creation, look how day turns to night, it is also impossible for man to do this or change it in any way. But to us humans it may seem strange or some may find it amazing. The truth is we have never seen an angel and yet people make movies about them according to their minds or what they've read. There is certainly wisdom behind all that he created.

Allaah says: "They (i.e. the angels) glorify His Praises night and day, (and) they never slacken (to do so)."[Al Qur'aan 21:20]
we as humans are weak to do that, we need sleep etc, Allaah swt created them that way.

Also most of the things have been proven to exist, like the Jinn, their have also been many encounters. The belief of simply believing you come back to life after death as a ghost isnt part of Islaam but it may be part of some other religion, maybe from the belief of reincarnation or the shaytaan.

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Is this why many people do not take religion seriously because they start to associate fictional stories to religious stories?
They also have superman and all these other characters, and stuff like genie and the magic lamp stuff where you rub a lamp and a genie/fairy flys out or something , im not aware of any religion that teaches about this, talking cats, and other animals it can be also be from their own imagination, so doesnt necessarily mean its because of religion and also definetly not Islaam. But i do agree that religion may play some part in some cartoons and stuff Allaahu Alam. But if they do, they make it seem fairy taley, as we as humans have not seen them.

However, you may doubt the authencity, when you havent been given knowledge regarding it and what is the wisdom behind it etc. Its like telling a little girl to wear the Hijaab but without telling her why so, she will never understand even the basics of wearing the Hijaab. Or why do we have sleep, well, so that we increase in energy to live for the next day and work hard and various other reasons, or why do we eat, so that we have energy to go on in the day. without sleep and food we would be quite lifeless in the day and many other reasons.

And Allaah knows best.

If i said anything wrong please correct me and i hope someone with knowledge can post up insha'Allaah and sorry if it seemed i went off topic a little bit just my opinions.

.. peace ..
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IAmZamzam
04-16-2011, 06:42 PM
If it helps you believe the stories then bear in mind that they vary just enough from both "canonical" and non-"canonical" Christian, Jewish, and folkloric stories that they overlap with, and in just the right ways, to be indicative of being the real truth. Also that they go against the way that the development of mythology works by being less exaggerated and closer to known secular fact than the earlier versions, indicating that they're not mythology at all because it's backwards from the way myth works. This is difficult to summarize clearly and I've probably already lost you. I go into more detail on the subject here and here.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
04-16-2011, 08:47 PM
^Excellent read, jazakallaahu Khaair for sharing.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-18-2011, 12:10 PM
Yes, I agree that a Muslim that has a firm belief in Allah will never associate Islamic beliefs with fictional ideas.
then why would such genre be a cause of confusion for Muslims?

It is not just Muslims that this topic is concerned with. I'm trying to find an explanation to why some Atheists cannot take religious ideas seriously and I think they are associating fictional ideas with religious themes.
i see. well, its probably best you ask atheists that then...:hmm:

I think some Muslims do it unintentionally. They may have watched a movie or read a book based on fantasy and then start learning about Islam. When they learn about Angels or Jinns, they may not take them seriously because these beliefs have been distorted by the media.
again, i dont think this should be a cause for confusion. if ones belief was firm in Allah, then they would immediately disregard what is not true.

I think this is one of the reasons why some scholars prohibit drawing pictures of human and animals. People may, unintentionally, have a distorted view of religious beliefs based upon fictional characters...
i see. do you have some evidence for that? i have never heard of this.
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GuestFellow
04-18-2011, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
then why would such genre be a cause of confusion for Muslims?
Some Muslims do not have such firm beliefs.

i see. well, its probably best you ask atheists that then...:hmm:
Which is why I created this topic. =)

again, i dont think this should be a cause for confusion. if ones belief was firm in Allah, then they would immediately disregard what is not true.
Not all Muslims have a firm belief in Allah. Some have doubts.

i see. do you have some evidence for that? i have never heard of this.
I should make myself clear. Some scholars say drawing pictures is not permissible:

What is the ruling on drawing in Islam?.

I'm saying one of the reasons why drawing pictures is not permissible because people may, unintentionally, have a distorted view of religious beliefs based upon fictional characters...

^ I'm just purely speculating.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Some Muslims do not have such firm beliefs.
so its not due to the religions set of beliefs, but the person themselves? is that what you are saying.

Which is why I created this topic. =)
ok then.

Not all Muslims have a firm belief in Allah. Some have doubts.
see above.


I should make myself clear. Some scholars say drawing pictures is not permissible:
did it confirm that in the fatwa though? i mean the reason why you think that drawing is not permissible.

I'm saying one of the reasons why drawing pictures is not permissible because people may, unintentionally, have a distorted view of religious beliefs based upon fictional characters...
^ I'm just purely speculating.
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GuestFellow
04-18-2011, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
so its not due to the religions set of beliefs, but the person themselves? is that what you are saying.
Yes.

did it confirm that in the fatwa though? i mean the reason why you think that drawing is not permissible.
No it did not confirm it. I think may be one of the reasons why drawing is not permissible.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-18-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes.
alhamdulillah. i rest my case: There is no reason that Islam should be mixed and confused with fantasy (as per going by original post) and if there is any confusion, then it is due to the persons own (personal not-so-in-line-with-the-truth) beliefs. That is, it does not make any difference to the authenticity of Islam...the authenticity of Islam remaining pure, despite by what and how the minds may be affected...therefore Islam is well and far removed from fantasy.
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AslamP
04-18-2011, 07:58 PM
When you say sleep paralysis, what do you exactly mean, could you please elaborate; I've done a lot of research and was just interested to collaborate with my findings? Thank you.
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AslamP
04-18-2011, 08:30 PM
have been thinking...sometimes when you learn stories from the Qur'an or even the Bible, did you ever doubt their authenticity? For example, Angels, Jinns, etc. I admit I did not take them seriously when I was agnostic; I used to find them amusing. I associated them with fantasy stories and movies.

I have read the Bible, Torah and the Quran. I never questioned the Quran, and found the other two scriptures to be boring and contradictory. As of now, I'm following a very interesting true storyline on a blog of a woman who has under gone what you have listed as a part of your question, so perhaps, at the end of the storyline, I'll be able to fully answer your question.

At the time I did not understood why I used to do that until now. I suspect many writers and film makers get their ideas from religion. These people get ideas from religious, cultural and historical sources and create fiction out of them. So when you read books or watch movies or play computer games based on fantasy, you know that it is not true but you then start to associate with your own religious beliefs...

You're right, they do get many of their ideas through religion, but only those people get confused who don't know the religion they follow and have adapted a belief system through cultural beliefs. The best part of religion is when you kept an open mind and did all the research on your own to have a true understanding of what you believe; I know it's been rewarding for me because that's what I've done.

I will use my example again. None of us know what an angel looks like but in movies, books or computer games, angels look like humans with big white wings. So could this have an affect on people that view Islam or Christianity when it talks about angels?

True, again, going back to me, loving inspirational stories, the blog I'm following has been very rewarding for me; because I get to see the world of angels, Jinns, Satan, Demons from the writer's true experiences. Her struggles has become a learning experience for me.

Has anyone else experience what I've written? Is this why many people do not take religion seriously because they start to associate fictional stories to religious stories?

Not really, I believe many people who are in confusion is because they love their surroundings (which is everything but the truth), so to them God becomes part of their belief instead of them becoming a part of His teachings.
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peace_maker
04-20-2011, 09:55 AM
I think this is one of the reasons why some scholars prohibit drawing pictures of human and animals. People may, unintentionally, have a distorted view of religious beliefs based upon fictional characters...
This is why drawing is prohibited.
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/h...17/chap305.htm
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Woodrow
04-20-2011, 01:18 PM
Sadly fiction based upon true religious beliefs can and does lead people astray. When I first reverted and became aware of the ahadith I was often told many things that the tellers believed came from authenticate hadith and later learned they came from fantasy and cultural superstitions.

Fantasy based upon religion can lead astray unless the viewer or reader has a very strong foundation in the truth.
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