Women as Prophets?

[Saad17]

Assalam-O-Alaikum

Is there a reason why there are no female prophets?

Well there is no evidence that all prophets were male, Allah only says that He sends messengers to every nation [e.g 16:36 And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger,.....] regardless of gender.

But the best woman of all nation [3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.] , Mary (AS) was not a prophet.

[Endymion]

I once read a Hadith,A female Sahabi RA asked Muhammad SAW,"Oh Prophet of Allah SWT,why Allah SWT did not choose women as Prophets AS?Muhammad SAW replied,"Yes,Allah SWT did not choose females as Prophets but He choose them to be the Mothers of Prophets AS".

Subhanallah,what a great answer and what a great status Islam give to women.They are the Mothers of Prophets and even the Jannah of a Prophet lies under the feet of women (their Mothers).

Made me so happy and proud :)

[yas2010]

Thank you for asking the question and answering. As my seven year old daughter asked me this very same question and meant to look it up for her.

:)

[Saad17]

I once read a Hadith,A female Sahabi RA asked Muhammad SAW,"Oh Prophet of Allah SWT,why Allah SWT did not choose women as Prophets AS?Muhammad SAW replied,"Yes,Allah SWT did not choose females as Prophets but He choose them to be the Mothers of Prophets AS".

Subhanallah,what a great answer and what a great status Islam give to women.They are the Mothers of Prophets and even the Jannah of a Prophet lies under the feet of women (their Mothers).

Made me so happy and proud :)

Wow, never thought about it that way. Thank you.

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[Woodrow]

I once read a Hadith,A female Sahabi RA asked Muhammad SAW,"Oh Prophet of Allah SWT,why Allah SWT did not choose women as Prophets AS?Muhammad SAW replied,"Yes,Allah SWT did not choose females as Prophets but He choose them to be the Mothers of Prophets AS".

Subhanallah,what a great answer and what a great status Islam give to women.They are the Mothers of Prophets and even the Jannah of a Prophet lies under the feet of women (their Mothers).

Made me so happy and proud :)

While that is a very beautiful and probably true answer. I have not been able to verify that it is from an authenticate Hadith. Perhaps, until validation is found, it would be best to phrase it simply as "Women have a very high role as the Mothers of Prophets(PBUT). There is no need for them to be Prophets(PBUT)." Two very important roles of equal responsibility, but each different. A man can never be the mother of a Prophet. Look at Maryam as an example of the beauty for one to be the Mother of a Prophet(PBUT)

[YM Usrah Umar]

i heard that the prophet (pbuh) said along these lines that there is not women prophet because if ther was, generally women have mood swings and being pregnant could derail dawah etc etc

[Woodrow]

i heard that the prophet (pbuh) said along these lines that there is not women prophet because if ther was, generally women have mood swings and being pregnant could derail dawah etc etc

You just brought up another point. Suppose there was a woman Prophet and she became pregnant. She could be carrying a child who will not be a prophet. Yet that child would be revered after birth and possibly even worshiped for having lived within the womb of a prophet.

[Salahudeen]

Well just think about what the prophets go through, all the hardships and stress, people laughing at them and calling them mad, people finding it hard to believe that God chose a man from amongst themselves to be a prophet, people trying to kill them, kids throwing stones at them and chasing them out of the city.

I think if a woman was given this, it would be even harder for people to accept, and she would find it difficult to do it also, for example they would say "are we to believe that God chose a woman instead of a strong man to be his prophet" unfortunely this is the kind of world we live in.

[Haya emaan]

if we study the nature of man it has always been a dominating gender.. and if there was a women prophet how difficult it would be for her to give dawah to men and ask them to accept her as a prophet...
secondly the hijab of a women... there are certain limitations for a women while going out of there homes and meeting nonmehrams.. how could she do all that which itself contradicts her religion.. great problems of hijab would arise in her dawah activities..

[Cabdullahi]

Well in this day and age we have strong women with bobbed hair...who've ditched long skirts in favor of wearing trousers and under garments with holes so they can urinate easier whilst standing up....these women get frustrated when they cannot do each and everything a man does, even when he is pulling out Mr Johnson for urination time

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Well there is no evidence that all prophets were male, Allah only says that He sends messengers to every nation... regardless of gender.

Yes there is.

Sahih International
And We sent not before you [as messengers] except men to whom We revealed from among the people of cities. So have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? And the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah ; then will you not reason? (Qur'an 12:109)

Sahih International
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. (Qur'an 16:43)

Pickthall
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not. (21:7)

[YM Usrah Umar]

:sl:

Yes there is.

Sahih International
And We sent not before you [as messengers] except men to whom We revealed from among the people of cities. So have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? And the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah ; then will you not reason? (Qur'an 12:109)

Sahih International
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. (Qur'an 16:43)

Pickthall
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not. (21:7)

well said, saad u need to be careful about what u say plz

[Ghazalah]

And We sent not before you [as messengers] except men to whom We revealed from among the people of cities. So have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? And the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah ; then will you not reason? (Qur'an 12:109)

I was waiting for someone to post this Ayah. Clear as daylight in the Quran there are only men as messengers. Various explanations, physically men are stronger so they can deal with the pain they face much more than women. Emotionally men are more able to deal with the the emotional pain. There is wisdom behind everything Allah SWT does.

[Saad17]

Well just think about what the prophets go through, all the hardships and stress, people laughing at them and calling them mad, people finding it hard to believe that God chose a man from amongst themselves to be a prophet, people trying to kill them, kids throwing stones at them and chasing them out of the city.

I think if a woman was given this, it would be even harder for people to accept, and she would find it difficult to do it also, for example they would say "are we to believe that God chose a woman instead of a strong man to be his prophet" unfortunely this is the kind of world we live in.

I understand what you are referring here but when men were sent that didn't stop the people from making arguments against them e.g Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was rejected for reasons like not being wealthy, having daughters instead of sons and especially being a mortal man instead of having miraculous power etc, even if Allah had sent an angel that wouldn't have stop them from making excuses even against the angel simply because those people were rebellious , they knew that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent by Allah but they produced vain argument to defeat the truth. Lastly I don't believe that men can be more patient than women, in this case I would say that they are equal (in spirituality), different in nature? absolutely but like I said Allah could have strengthened and helped the women where they were weak just like He helped Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) when he was weak. I would agree with the Hadith though and the statement "Allah does what He likes" but would love to know His wisdom behind the matter.

well said, saad u need to be careful about what u say plz

Forgive me, I thought the verses used the Arabic word "insan" that refers to both female and male but I must admit that these are talking about the male gender........or are they referring to the fact that Allah only sends mortal people and not people who can live without eating etc , not sure but yes I should be more careful.

[Insaanah]

I would agree with the Hadith though and the statement "Allah does what He likes" but would love to know His wisdom behind the matter.

There are many things behind which there is Allah's wisdom, yet in many cases He has not stated or explained that wisdom anywhere, and that wisdom is in His all Encompassing knowledge with Himself. We can only guess and give reasons based on our own logic and limited understanding, which may be correct or may not be.

Let us not busy ourselves in worrying about female prophets and let us busy ourselves in obeying the Prophet sent to us. One of the things he :saws: said in the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah upon hearing that the Persians had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, was “No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53).

When Prophets were sent, they were, amongst other roles, leaders for the believers. If there is no khayr or prosperity with a woman as a leader of the people, then know that the same would apply in the case of a female prophet.

or are they referring to the fact that Allah only sends mortal people and not people who can live without eating etc

Rijaal refers specifically to men.

And Allah knows best in all matters.

:sl:

[CosmicPathos]

I wondering why you, as a male, so worried that there has never been a female Prophet. Do you want to have a female Prophet? If yes then why so? You prefer feminine voices over hearing a man speak?

[Saad17]

I wondering why you, as a male, so worried that there has never been a female Prophet. Do you want to have a female Prophet? If yes then why so? You prefer feminine voices over hearing a man speak?

I'm only curious , after all that is all I can do for what I want is not important, its about what Allah wants.

[Futuwwa]

:sl:

Yes there is.

Sahih International
And We sent not before you [as messengers] except men to whom We revealed from among the people of cities. So have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? And the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah ; then will you not reason? (Qur'an 12:109)

Sahih International
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. (Qur'an 16:43)

Pickthall
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not. (21:7)

That's taking things out of context a bit. The purpose of those verses is not to make a statement regarding the gender of prophets. I'd like to know if the original classical Arabic uses a male-exclusive term (rather than, say, a masculine/generic term, just as "men" in English may either mean males or just generally humans).

[Ramadhan]

I think we have to be careful to differentiate between "prophet" (nabi) and "messenger" (rasul), because they are different. A rasul is always prophet, but prophet may not be a rasul. Messenger is given new law, books to uphold, while a prophet only continue the old law.

Theres a hadith (not sure about the authenticity, might be weak):
Imam Ahmad Hanbal (RA) in his Musnad has mentioned a Hadith (No. 21257) that Allah (SWT) sent 124, 000 Prophets and from among them, 315 were the Messengers. Abu Dharr (RA) asked the Messenger of Allah (SAW) about the number of Prophets. He said: “124,000 and from them is a group of 315 Messengers.”

So messengers have definitely been men/male only. And no female prophet is mentioned in the Qur'an or ahadeeth.
Maryam (ra), as lofty her prosition in the sight of Allah and the most noble and highest among all women, is also never referrred to as a prophet.

I guess this (why no prophet was woman) is one of those questions whose answer is with Allah SWT only, and we will only know it in qiyamah.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

I'd like to know if the original classical Arabic uses a male-exclusive term (rather than, say, a masculine/generic term, just as "men" in English may either mean males or just generally humans).

The word used in the Arabic text, as I stated in my previous post, means specifically men. It does not mean humans in general.

Rajul, in Arabic, is one man. That word cannot be used for woman. Rijaal is it's plural, and means specifically men. The word rijaal has been used in each of the ayaat I quoted.

The word for human is bashar or insaan. This can be used for either gender.

That's taking things out of context a bit.

Please tell me, that if Allah is telling us that he sent not except men, and I quote what He has said, how is that taking things out of context? I have not made up my own translation, but used well established ones, the translators are stated in italics above each verse that I quoted. I have not twisted any meanings, nor given any meaning to any word that's not there, nor have I applied a verse to a situation it is not meant to be applied to. I have merely quoted what it says.

The purpose of those verses is not to make a statement regarding the gender of prophets.

I didn't specify the purpose of the verses anywhere. I just stated what they said, and they all begin by saying that Allah sent not except men. And who is truer in statement than Allah? And if Allah has said that, His word is true, and it means that he sent not except men. And it follows that the verses constitute Qur'anic evidence to show that Allah sent not except men. Alhamdulillah.

[Futuwwa]

Sister, I yield to your greater knowledge of Arabic.

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are. Like, if a calendar told you the sun will rise at 7:34 on a specific day, would you deem the calendar unreliable from spouting unscientific nonsense about the sun rising (ergo moving around the earth)? Or would you simply conclude that it isn't making a statement about astronomy in the first place and is just saying that dawn will break at that time?

['Abd-al Latif]

Assalam-O-Alaikum

Is there a reason why there are no female prophets?

Well there is no evidence that all prophets were male, Allah only says that He sends messengers to every nation [e.g 16:36 And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger,.....] regardless of gender.

But the best woman of all nation [3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.] , Mary (AS) was not a prophet.

A short answer; it's not appropriate for women to be prophets. Women don't possess the characteristics to be leaders over nations. This not to degrade women but they cannot raise children and lead an army or manage the affairs of their people while running the home. Men have always been the leaders and have been given the strengths to bear the hardships and responsibilities that comes with being a leader. Male characteristics are in harmony with the requirements of a prophet while a woman would have to go out of her way to fulfil the same responsibilities.

[Insaanah]

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are.

I am assuming that you don't mean to imply that some details in the Qur'an are "irrelevant". Glorified and Exalted be the Revealer of the Qur'an above that.

Lets take for one minute some ayaat with the word rajul/rijaal in them and apply your above logic that the words aren't necessarily literally true and are contextually irrelevant, and see where that takes us.

First example, from Surah al-Ahzaab:

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَآ أَحَدٍ مّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَـكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيماً

Sahih International
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. (33:40).

Using the above logic, let us not take the meaning to be what is clearly written, and let us take it in a non-literal sense, and inlude rijaal to mean men and women. That would mean that Prophet Muhammad :saws: is not the father of any men or women amongst you. That would mean that he :saws: had no children. In reality this is not true, because he had daughters. And that is why Allah specifically used the word rijaal, specifically to say that he was not the father of any man.

Second example, also from Surah al-Ahzaab:

مَّا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لِرَجُلٍ مِّن قَلْبَيْنِ فِى جَوْفِهِ وَمَا جَعَلَ أَزْوَجَكُمُ اللاَّئِى تُظَـهِرُونَ مِنْهُنَّ أُمَّهَـتِكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ أَدْعِيَآءَكُمْ أَبْنَآءَكُمْ ذَلِكُمْ قَوْلُكُم بِأَفْوَهِكُمْ وَاللَّهُ يَقُولُ الْحَقَّ وَهُوَ يَهْدِى السَّبِيلَ

Pickthall
Allah hath not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath He made your wives whom ye declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath He made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouths. But Allah saith the truth and He showeth the way.(33:4)

Now, that is a verse that people would say, you certainly can't take that literally and that even though the word rijaal (men) has been used, it would apply to both i.e. neither men nor women have two hearts inside them. Think again. The Quran is a literary miracle for a reason, and Allah has chosen His words exactly. There are occasions when women have two or more hearts inside them - when they are pregnant. At that time, they have at least one other heart inside them apart from their own, which is that of their unborn baby. Sometimes she may have three or even four hearts inside her, if Allah so wishes. That is why Allah has specifically used the word rajul here. Subhaanallah.

I hope you can see the dangerous slippery slope the logic that you are suggesting is. You cannot stretch the meaning of the Qur'an, of your own volition, to something that is not there. We cannot make up our own interpretation, decide for our own selves what to take literally and what does not fit into the context that we personally would like it to fit in to.

I leave you with a quote from the tafsir of Ibn Kathir, for the first ayah I quoted in my first post in this thread, (12:109):

"All of the Prophets are Humans and Men

Allah states that He only sent Prophets and Messengers from among men and not from among women, as this Ayah clearly states. Allah did not reveal religious and legislative laws to any woman from among the daughters of Adam. This is the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah. Shaykh Abu Al-Hasan, `Ali bin Isma`il Al-Ash`ari mentioned that it is the view of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah, that there were no female Prophets, but there were truthful believers from among women. Allah mentions the most honorable of the truthful female believers, Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, when He said,

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَام

(The Messiah﴿ 'Isa, (son of Maryam (Mary)), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (truthful believer). They both used to eat food. (5:75) Therefore, the best description Allah gave her is Siddiqah. Had she been a Prophet, Allah would have mentioned this fact when He was praising her qualities and honor. Therefore, Mary was a truthful believer according to the words of the Qur'an."

Source

[Ramadhan]

First you said this:

That's taking things out of context a bit.

How did you know that sister insanaah took things out of context when you don't even understand arabic, let alone qur'an arabic?
And that you have not even read the Qur'an yourself?

The purpose of those verses is not to make a statement regarding the gender of prophets.

This is serious gross misunderstanding of the Qur'an which may stem from incorrect belief/tawheed. I suggest you to learn from reputable Islamic sources for your study of Islam. True, the main purpose of the verses may not to announce be that messengers were all men (or male gender of human beings, if you prefer to be more accurate), Allah purposefully use the word "rijaal" and nothing in the Qur'an is pointless and without purpose and it is the speech of Allah, so it is impossible that Allah SWT chose a particular word but actually meant another.

I'd like to know if the original classical Arabic uses a male-exclusive term (rather than, say, a masculine/generic term, just as "men" in English may either mean males or just generally humans).

Yusufali or Picthal translation is not the Qur'an. Just because you read from english translation where it says "men" which could mean either "male", or "persons", does not mean the actual word in the qur'an is similarly vague.
Here's the translation of the verses in Bahasa Indonesia:
QS. 12:109
Kami tidak mengutus sebelum kamu, melainkan orang laki-laki yang Kami berikan wahyu kepadanya diantara penduduk negeri. Maka tidakkah mereka bepergian di muka bumi lalu melihat bagaimana kesudahan orang-orang sebelum mereka (yang mendustakan rasul) dan sesungguhnya kampung akhirat adalah lebih baik bagi orang-orang yang bertakwa. Maka tidakkah kamu memikirkannya?
QS. 16:43
Dan Kami tidak mengutus sebelum kamu, kecuali orang-orang lelaki yang Kami beri wahyu kepada mereka; maka bertanyalah kepada orang yang mempunyai pengetahuan jika kamu tidak mengetahui,
QS. 21:7
Kami tiada mengutus rasul rasul sebelum kamu (Muhammad), melainkan beberapa orang-laki-laki yang Kami beri wahyu kepada mereka, maka tanyakanlah olehmu kepada orang-orang yang berilmu, jika kamu tiada mengetahui.

all of them states "laki" which means "the male of human species", and can never be used for female nor for genderless persons.

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are. Like, if a calendar told you the sun will rise at 7:34 on a specific day, would you deem the calendar unreliable from spouting unscientific nonsense about the sun rising (ergo moving around the earth)? Or would you simply conclude that it isn't making a statement about astronomy in the first place and is just saying that dawn will break at that time?

I don't know whats this rambling about, but all your talk about free-for-all reinterpretations of the Qur'an reminds me of several Qur'an verses:
"Those to whom We gave the book (the Qur’an) recite it as it should be recited, they are the ones that believe therein. And who disbelieves in it (the Qur’an), those are the losers." (QS. 2:121)
"And thus We have sent it down as a Qur’an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may have taqwa, or that it may cause them to learn a lesson from it." (QS. Taha:113)
"A book of verses of which are well expounded, a discourse in Arabic for people who understand..."(41:3); "We have revealed the Qur’an in Arabic so that you may understand."(43:3); "The speech of a man they imply is alien, while this is purest Arabic." (16:103) "And the (Qur’an) is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds ... in plain Arabic." (26:192-195); "We have revealed a discourse in Arabic so that you may understand." (12:2).

And I am shocked that you consider details of the Qur'an are unimportant and irrelevant.
In the other threads http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134305431 you also did similar if not worse: you assigned your own interpretation of the word "kuffaar" (QS. 60:10) to support opinion that muslima is allowed to marry non-muslim men, and you claimed that divorce is a sin although there is a whole surah named "talaq (divorce)" and dedicated to set regulations on divorce.
Are you sure you are not taking Islamic lesson from a catholic?

Alhamdulillah, Allah has promised and preserve the Qur'an for us so we know right away when people are trying to misquote, mistranslate or misinterpret the verses. Even then, there are still people who keep trying to do just that. Can you believe what would have happened if we dont have Qur'an preserved?

[Ramadhan]

Pickthall Allah hath not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath He made your wives whom ye declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath He made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouths. But Allah saith the truth and He showeth the way.(33:4)

Now, that is a verse that people would say, you certainly can't take that literally and that even though the word rijaal (men) has been used, it would apply to both i.e. neither men nor women have two hearts inside them. Think agan. The Quran is a literary miracle for a reason, and Allah has chosen His words exactly. There are occasions when women have two or more hearts inside them - when they are pregnant. At that time, they have at least one other heart inside them apart from their own, which is that of their unborn baby. Sometimes she may have three or even four hearts inside her, if Allah so wishes. That is why Allah has specifically used the word rajul here. Subhaanallah.

Subhanallah!
I'm still so fascinated and thoroughly humbled to be reminded again of such miracle
Jazakallah khayr for sharing this verse with us.

[Rhubarb Tart]

:sl:

I don’t buy the argument that women don’t have character to be a leader and being a mother excuse. Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all. Just leave the explanation to Allah (swt).

Is there a woman prophet? No


why? I dont know..

['Abd-al Latif]

:sl:

I don’t buy the argument that women don’t have character to be a leader and being a mother excuse. Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all. Just leave the explanation to Allah (swt).

Is there a woman prophet? No


why? I dont know..

You're entitled to your view. It doesn't mean that women cannot be leaders at all, they can be leaders amongst themselves or for small groups which should generally be amongst women but as for leading nations, this has always been for men. From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders. They are known for decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart etc. This doesn't necessarily make them any better than females but this is a characteristics that shines amongst men.

From a religious view the condition to be a leader in high positions such as imam and leader is restricted to men. Allah says in the Quran, "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other…” [Nisa 4:34] and the Prophet (:saws1:) clearly said "No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53). There are many other evidences like these and they are all consistent with my earlier saying that women were not chosen as prophets for such reasons. If these are not a lack of characteristics then what else is it?

[Rhubarb Tart]

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned. Btw I don’t dispute the high position like Imam are restricted to men in Islam.

['Abd-al Latif]

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned. Btw I don’t dispute the high position like Imam are restricted to men in Islam.

I'm not arguing with the fact that women are given such positions. Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another. The only reason why history hasn't shown terrible examples of women leadership is simply because of the scarcity of female leaders throughout history. Allah has created each gender for a specific purpose so I'll let the sands of time speak for itself.

P.S

An 'iman' isn't just the leader of the prayer at the mosque.

w/salam

[Ummu Sufyaan]

why? I dont know..

Perhaps they may have gotten harassed more? Perhaps at the time that the Prophets were sent, society didn't take women seriously. Perhaps they would have not been taken seriously due to their gender such as men taking it as an excuse to look at them, etc.

[Rhubarb Tart]

I'm not arguing with the fact that women are given such positions. Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another. The only reason why history hasn't shown terrible examples of women leadership is simply because of the scarcity of female leaders throughout history. Allah has created each gender for a specific purpose so I'll let the sands of time speak for itself.

P.S

An 'iman' isn't just the leader of the prayer at the mosque.

w/salam

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers. Millions are not and cannot be mothers. For those women what other aspect of their lives do they need to focus on? And what about the single mothers, some of whom are able successfully to focus on both?

Sadly you think the only a women are here to pop out babies and maintain their homes. Islam may prevent women from leading a country, running a mosque and be a judge.

Islam hasn’t prevented women from owning their own property, having their own business, running a whole government department whether it is health, economy, employment etc, be a lead surgeon, headmaster, professor, scientist, dentist etc All of which needs to have the characteristic you have already mentioned and some of those jobs involve leading men.

And your point about focusing one aspect of life and falling deficient on another can also be said about men. How many times have you heard marriage breakdown purely because the man is focusing more on his work than family life?

I did not say you deny women are given such position. I made those points to illustrate there are some women that are able to lead a whole group of people because they do have the characteristic to do so. I am simply saying that we don’t know the reason why Allah (swt) created those rules. And I also simply saying you should not generalise one gender. Women are not homogenous group with same characteristic. Not all of us get the chance or desire to be mothers, not all us work or are housewives, not all of us will ever get married or is married.

Btw I know imam do more than lead prayers.

['Abd-al Latif]

You're taking what I said out of context. I am all for women being educated, knowledgeable and respected in their fields. It puts a smile on my face to see sisters, as well as brothers, excelling in their fields and bringing benefit to their families and communities. My specific mention was of leading nations, to lead an entire country. Allah (swt) did not make a mistake when he made men the breadwinners and the women the home maintainers, which leads to my other point. Since men are created as the breadwinners it only befits their nature to be leaders because of all what leadership entails, and not women. This is what men do best. Women were created for a different purpose, something which no man can do better than a woman. If women seek what men were created for then who will do what needs to be done at home? Society will be in an imbalance. One of the best of women that the Prophet (:saws1:) specifically mentioned was his daughter, Fatima. She did not have a business or career but was the maintainer of her home. Can the women of today bring something forward something that Allah's messenger was not given?

It goes without saying that if she needs a job then no one is stopping her.

I really don't have a lot of time to discuss this in detail because I have things I need to be getting on with. But my point is that a woman doesn't have to just to the cooking and cleaning or take care of kids while at home. She can do a lot more than that. A single mother or women who cannot have children can do a lot more than chasing a career or becoming a business woman if she seeks to define herself. I don't see the need to accept positions over men, it's a job I don't expect her to do very well and I'm speaking from experience. I'm not convinced.

[Rhubarb Tart]

It is not just about being educated, knowledgeable and respected in their fields. I was pointing out there are women who are leaders in these field. My main point was disputing the characteristic you listed as only men have. I simply pointed out some women do display those same characteristic everyday of their lives including in the profession I have mentioned.

Prophet (pbuh) first wife was a business woman and the differences between the wives are preciously the point I was making! Women are not the same and not all are suited to stay at home either.

Does the point you are making goes further than leading a country? Your last point doesn’t make sense, what you are saying? Women should be excluded from other high positions other than what is already excluded from Allah (swt)?

I agree that there are good reason not known to us why women are excluded from certain roles which are very few roles btw. I just don’t agree with you about that only men are known for their

Decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart,

I tired to emphasise that women do display those skills in other professions. So I did not take what you said out of context. I think you misunderstood me.

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all.

Women can be leaders but this depends on the work itself. I think this needs to be taken into account. For example, a women can be head of an accounting department but this would be completely different if a women were to become leader of a country.

From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders.

How would you define "stronger" and "dominant" in this context? How would you measure these two qualities from a man to a women?

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned.

Your personal experiences are not relevant. We are talking about a women in position of governing a country.

Perhaps they may have gotten harassed more? Perhaps at the time that the Prophets were sent, society didn't take women seriously. Perhaps they would have not been taken seriously due to their gender such as men taking it as an excuse to look at them, etc.

It would have been dangerous, indeed. I think this may be one of the main reasons.

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers.

Can you point this out in his post? I failed to spot this.

Islam hasn’t prevented women from owning their own property, having their own business, running a whole government department whether it is health, economy, employment etc, be a lead surgeon, headmaster, professor, scientist, dentist etc

How about the military or defence?

[Salahudeen]

:sl:




How about the military or defence?

And the salah.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Women can be leaders but this depends on the work itself. I think this needs to be taken into account. For example, a women can be head of an accounting department but this would be completely different if a women were to become leader of a country.

That was my point though, women do have some leadership skills regardless.

Your personal experiences are not relevant. We are talking about a women in position of governing a country.

Actually it was in response to the brother saying that only men had characteristic like decision making etc. My example showed that wasn’t true at all and it also showed I managed to handle both genders not just women too. So it was also in response to the brother saying women can only adequately lead other women.

Can you point this out in his post? I failed to spot this.

Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another.

My response to that statement was:

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers. Millions are not and cannot be mothers. For those women what other aspect of their lives do they need to focus on?

How about the military or defence?

Don’t know Islamic perspective about women being involved in military and defence. Since they can’t be leading a nation, they can’t obviously lead military because it is part of the responsibility of leading a nation. I guess people can give that reason why prophets were not women because they were physically weaker to fight in war.
I am not arguing with what Islam says. I just disagree with the idea that women do not have the skills to lead when some clearly do.

Goodnight

[Maryan0]

I did not say you deny women are given such position. I made those points to illustrate there are some women that are able to lead a whole group of people because they do have the characteristic to do so. I am simply saying that we don’t know the reason why Allah (swt) created those rules. And I also simply saying you should not generalise one gender. Women are not homogenous group with same characteristic. Not all of us get the chance or desire to be mothers, not all us work or are housewives, not all of us will ever get married or is married.

I agree.

I don't like generalizations myself.
Salam

[IAmZamzam]

There have been matriarchal societies here and there in history, where a woman was more likely to be taken seriously than a man, and so it would not be at all surprising if there were female prophets there. God sent them everywhere.

[CosmicPathos]

I think your example of leading 50 men and women is not a representative of the possibility of you ruling 50 million people. Quite an irrational comparison.

[Trumble]

You're entitled to your view. It doesn't mean that women cannot be leaders at all, they can be leaders amongst themselves or for small groups which should generally be amongst women but as for leading nations, this has always been for men. From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders. They are known for decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart etc. This doesn't necessarily make them any better than females but this is a characteristics that shines amongst men.

Tell that to Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Catherine the Great, Isabella I of Castille, Joan of Arc, Boudicca ....

Prophets may well be a seperate issue, but as far as leaders in other contexts... what a load of sexist cr*p. Sorry.

[CosmicPathos]

Tell that to Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Catherine the Great, Isabella I of Castille, Joan of Arc, Boudicca ....

Prophets may well be a seperate issue, but as far as leaders in other contexts... what a load of sexist cr*p. Sorry.

what is so special about them? Were they as dominating and mighty as lets say Alexander the Great? Or for that matter Hitler? Or Genghis Khan? Or Napoleon?

What is sexist? How come Gautam Buddha had to be a male?

[Ramadhan]

What is sexist? How come Gautam Buddha had to be a male?

As a buddhist, Trumble would have to agree that women cannot be prophets.
It's what Buddha said himself.

[Trumble]

what is so special about them?

I hope that's a joke question. Well, just in case it isn't, they all managed to get rather fewer people killed for a start. In one respect they were special precisely because they did extremely well what women were not supposedly able to do in an environment (except, perhaps for Thatcher) that made that extremely difficult to do. They not only had to be as good as the men, but better.

Were they as dominating and mighty as lets say Alexander the Great? Or for that matter Hitler? Or Genghis Khan? Or Napoleon?

Or Stalin. Or Mao. Or George W. Bush. If that lot are 'dominating and mighty', I think we could do without them, don't you? Again, though, all those figures (the joke inclusion of Bush excepted) were dominant not because of of any particular 'male' mental or physical characteristics but because it was more-or-less impossible in those cultures for women to achieve the positions those men did in order to start their careers of domination and mightiness.

What is sexist? How come Gautam Buddha had to be a male?

As a buddhist, Trumble would have to agree that women cannot be prophets.
It's what Buddha said himself.

There are no 'prophets' in Buddhism. Regardless, I don't see the relevance. I stated specifically in my reply to 'Abd-al Latif that prophets were a seperate issue and that I was referring to his claims regarding the suitability, or lack of it, of women to be political leaders. The Buddha was a purely religious figure, not a political one.

[Maryan0]

There have been successful female leaders. It's one thing to argue that in Islam women and men have different but complimentary roles it's another thing to state that women cannot lead because they are lacking in some higher mental faculty absent in their gender. Women have been dependent on men not because of something they are lacking in their minds but because of their biology, menstruating, child birth, their weaker physical bodies etc.
which is why I agreed with sweet106 on generalizations based on characteristics.
Salam

[GuestFellow]

That was my point though, women do have some leadership skills regardless.

I think everyone does. Some are better than others.

Actually it was in response to the brother saying that only men had characteristic like decision making etc. My example showed that wasn’t true at all and it also showed I managed to handle both genders not just women too. So it was also in response to the brother saying women can only adequately lead other women.

Okay.

Don’t know Islamic perspective about women being involved in military and defence. Since they can’t be leading a nation, they can’t obviously lead military because it is part of the responsibility of leading a nation. I guess people can give that reason why prophets were not women because they were physically weaker to fight in war.
I am not arguing with what Islam says. I just disagree with the idea that women do not have the skills to lead when some clearly do.

Glad we can reach an agreement. =)

Goodnight

Good morning.

[Woodrow]

I think we are looking at things with the wrong perspective. We are taking the fact there were no female prophets and changing it to women do not have leadership abilities.

It is true no woman can be a prophet, but it is also true no man can every be a prophet again as the last Prophet(PBUH) has already been.

We do not know why woman have never been chosen, we can only guess, speculate and analyze. But the only thing we know for certain is Allaah(swt) never selected a woman to be so. We need not know or understand his reason. A pointless thing to think about.

Now does the fact no women have been Prophets(PBUT) actually mean women do not have the ability to be leaders?

[Rhubarb Tart]

I think your example of leading 50 men and women is not a representative of the possibility of you ruling 50 million people. Quite an irrational comparison.

Again why do I have to REPEAT myself? That was in response to the characteristic is listed as only men have!

[YieldedOne]

Please delete this post of mine.

[Rhubarb Tart]

:sl:

Can you lot actually see how dangerous the assumption about women not having leadership abilities at ALL? I can see that assumption go further in actually excluding women from lot of Jobs they are entitled to do! In fact it actually does happen in some societies. Hence: why I am deadest against those assumptions! The assumption that they lack decision making, thinking with their heart instead of head etc means they can’t be run a hospital, be headmaster, professor, lead scientist, health minister or lead any other government department, surgeon, doctor, dentist, lawyers the list is endless. Don’t you think all these professions need some or all of those characteristic listed as only men have?

Sorry but I will try to stop those kind of assumptions or generalisation that lead to discrimination on large scale on its’ track. Muslim community, societies will never prosper if they continue to treat women like children or prevent them from doing jobs they are entitled to do based on baseless and patronising assumption.
So all I ask is to stop with generalisation that goes for both females and males in this forum. That also goes for me sometimes because I admit I tend to generalise about males too.

['Abd-al Latif]

Tell that to Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Catherine the Great, Isabella I of Castille, Joan of Arc, Boudicca ....

Prophets may well be a seperate issue, but as far as leaders in other contexts... what a load of sexist cr*p. Sorry.

I was waiting for someone to mention these names. As for all these women you've mentioned, I'll have to dig up a BBC documentary that will clarify this better then I can. Give me a little while, it was some time ago I saw this and I'll have to google it.

[Futuwwa]

Sister Insaanah,

First, my thanks for you taking your time to make such a long post.

Is it a commonly accepted idea within Quranic hermeneutics that secondary meanings like that can be deduced from ayats? Your argument would rely on that presumption.

[Insaanah]

Is it a commonly accepted idea within Quranic hermeneutics that secondary meanings like that can be deduced from ayats? Your argument would rely on that presumption.

I am not an expert on Qur'anic hermeneutics. However, as you saw, I ended my post with a quote from the Tafseer of Ibn Kathir, one of the great mufassirs and experts on such matters, which I will re-quote here in case you missed it.

All of the Prophets are Humans and Men

Allah states that He only sent Prophets and Messengers from among men and not from among women, as this Ayah clearly states. Allah did not reveal religious and legislative laws to any woman from among the daughters of Adam. This is the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah. Shaykh Abu Al-Hasan, `Ali bin Isma`il Al-Ash`ari mentioned that it is the view of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah, that there were no female Prophets, but there were truthful believers from among women. Allah mentions the most honorable of the truthful female believers, Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, when He said,

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ

(The Messiah﴿ 'Isa ﴾son of Maryam (Mary)), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (truthful believer). They both used to eat food. (5:75) Therefore, the best description Allah gave her is Siddiqah. Had she been a Prophet, Allah would have mentioned this fact when He was praising her qualities and honor. Therefore, Mary was a truthful believer according to the words of the Qur'an.

Source (Emphasis mine)

Interestingly, Ibn Kathir does not class it is a secondary meaning, rather he says that the ayah clearly states it. Which it does. No presumptions need to be relied upon here.

[جوري]

Well just think about what the prophets go through, all the hardships and stress, people laughing at them and calling them mad, people finding it hard to believe that God chose a man from amongst themselves to be a prophet, people trying to kill them, kids throwing stones at them and chasing them out of the city.

that is along my line of reasoning.. a prophet is also a political and war, treaty, figure it would really be unfair to place that kind of a burden on a woman especially so back in those days, when women outside of Islam were no more than property to their fathers and husbands.. Imagine a woman giving da3wah to people in the far east, Europe or amongst the Arabs, probably wouldn't survive two days people back then were ruthless.. not that they're any less ruthless now a days but the means have changed..

:w: