Apostasy the consequences of it.

[gmcbroom]

I'm curious. In christianity, faith in the face persecution is strongly encouraged even dying for the faith. For to christians even if you kill the body that doesn't mean you kill the soul. And all who are properly baptized in the faith, are members of the body of Christ who rose from the dead. That's what christians believe and trust in. So for christians to apostize we risk our spiritual destruction even if we physically live.
I read on a website that apostacy in Islam is a death sentence. Is it a physical death or spiritual one? Is that in the Koran or is it a matter of state? If so why?

Peace be with you

[Woodrow]

Peace gmcbroom.

The greatest punishment is an apostate will suffer hellfire if they die as such. For earthly punishment, there normally is none as long as the apostate does not try to convert others, in which case the most likely punishment would be loss of citizenship and possible exile.

Under Shariah law the maximum punishment would be death, but this would entail that the apostasy included an act of treason against the nation.

[gmcbroom]

Woodrow, Thank you for responding. Then is Sharia a secular law of the state or a religious law? If it's religious then doesn't that mean Christianity is automatically labeled treasonous in a nation under Sharia law? What about there shall be no compulsion in religion? That sounds confusing.

Peace be with you.

[جوري]

If it's religious then doesn't that mean Christianity is automatically labeled treasonous in a nation under Sharia law? What about there shall be no compulsion in religion?

How did you come up with this conclusion? I haven't seen any Islamic book on jurisprudence that labels Christianity as 'treasonous' Furthermore Jesus (p) didn't implement any law, he was supposed to enforce Jewish law, which according to modern Christians he has in fact abrogated. So Christianity is a religion, nothing more nothing less. Islam isn't just a religion.. it is politics, economics, social structure, finance, inheritance, ideology, beliefs, state law and constitution. And such Constitution protects the rights of all its citizens with fairness and justice.. Look at any society in the past where sharia'a was said to have been implemented and how the non-Muslims lived especially so compared to their laws under predominately christian or Jewish counterparts!

One can't make such a statement of Christianity so your conclusion is null and void from its very inception!

all the best

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[Sol Invictus]

Under Shariah law the maximum punishment would be death, but this would entail that the apostasy included an act of treason against the nation.

i once had the matter explained to me along the lines that the apostasy itself was an act of treason and as such it would in fact lead to the death penalty either way. does this sound right or even probable? i'm interested in knowing what you think.

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, Thank you for responding. Then is Sharia a secular law of the state or a religious law? If it's religious then doesn't that mean Christianity is automatically labeled treasonous in a nation under Sharia law? What about there shall be no compulsion in religion? That sounds confusing.

Peace be with you.

and Peace be with you,

In a true Islamic State there is no separation of State and Religion. Sharia is a religious law.

However this does not make this true:

If it's religious then doesn't that mean Christianity is automatically labeled treasonous in a nation under Sharia law?

A Christian in an Islamic Nation is not considered treasonous as they would never be in the position to commit treason. They are not apostates as they never proclaimed themselves as being Muslim. A Muslim who apostates can be charged with Treason if his apostasy aids an enemy the nation is at war with or if it leads other Muslims to leave Islam.

The is no compulsion in Islam. A non-Muslim is permitted to keep his/her faith and to practice it. However non-Muslims are not permitted to try to lead Muslims away from Islam.

[gmcbroom]

Dearest The Vales Lily,

I'm confused to be sure. That is afterall why I asked the questions.

As for Jesus abrogating anything that news to me. He came to fufill the law which he did. In fact he summed them up in two simple statements 1 to love your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. and 2 to Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This compasses the whole of the law all 613 or so.

As for christianity being a religion regretfully many treat exactly like that (something to be dusted off every sunday and then put in the closet). In reality Christianity is a way of life. So much so that in the beginning it was called ,"The Way".

As for Islam not just being a religion but a socio political structure with it's own laws and ideology, this is why I asked the question. Because if its adherants misunderstand its own citizens which have a different religion Christianity, Judism, Hinduism,etc. Then wouldn't they be persecuted?

Which brings me back to No compulsion in religion. In essence its two different rules conflicting each other.
I may be mistaken; but thats what i'm getting out of this.

Peace be with you.

[gmcbroom]

Thank you Woodrow, for explaining what an apostate is. So christians couldn't be charged as Apostates thats a good thing. However, as we're specifically told to go and make disciples of all nations, it would seem that by Sharia law Christians would be committing treason.

Peace be with you

[جوري]

Dearest The Vales Lily,

I'm confused to be sure. That is afterall why I asked the questions.

As for Jesus abrogating anything that news to me. He came to fufill the law which he did. In fact he summed them up in two simple statements 1 to love your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. and 2 to Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This compasses the whole of the law all 613 or so.

As for christianity being a religion regretfully many treat exactly like that (something to be dusted off every sunday and then put in the closet). In reality Christianity is a way of life. So much so that in the beginning it was called ,"The Way".

As for Islam not just being a religion but a socio political structure with it's own laws and ideology, this is why I asked the question. Because if its adherants misunderstand its own citizens which have a different religion Christianity, Judism, Hinduism,etc. Then wouldn't they be persecuted?

Which brings me back to No compulsion in religion. In essence its two different rules conflicting each other.
I may be mistaken; but thats what i'm getting out of this.

Peace be with you.

If your whole law is just two commandments then what exactly would you like to go preaching? you can love your neighbor and love God without bugging others about it.. neither categories would be classified as treasonous I fear we don't share the same baseline definition of the term.. as for abrogated laws or laws not upheld well there are numerous discussions on the subjects on this very board and I don't wish to digress this topic.. let's just say if you were upholding OT laws then you'd be Jewish not christian!

all the best

[Woodrow]

i once had the matter explained to me along the lines that the apostasy itself was an act of treason and as such it would in fact lead to the death penalty either way. does this sound right or even probable? i'm interested in knowing what you think.

There are some who do say that. but, I would question if they are knowledgeable in Islamic Jurisprudence. I have found the general rulings to be that apostasy itself is not treason.

For example the case of Hamid Pourmand of Iran. Who was an officer in the Iranian Army. Iran probably enforces shariah in the most extreme manner of any nation past or present. While Hamad was convicted of Apostasy, he was not tried for nor convicted of treason. Notice the source I am quoting from. I admit it is a biased source, but I doubt you would say it is biased in favor of Muslims.

CONVERT FROM ISLAM ACQUITTED OF APOSTASY CHARGES - Could have faced death penalty

By Dan Wooding - Founder of ASSIST Ministries

BANDAR-I BUSHEHR, IRAN (ANS) -- Hamid Pourmand, a lay leader in the Assemblies of God church in Bandar-i Bushehr who converted to Christianity in 1980, has been acquitted of charges of apostasy and proselytizing.

"If found guilty he would have faced the death penalty," said a spokesperson for Middle East Concern (MEC), who has been monitoring the case. "He remains imprisoned for allegedly deceiving the Iranian army about his being a Christian."

Pourmand was arrested September 9, 2004, together with 85 other participants of the annual general conference of denomination. The other Christians were released within the next three days, but pastor Pourmand was charged with hiding his conversion from his superiors. According to Iranian law only Muslims can be officers in the army.

The Middle East Concern spokesperson went on to say, "On Saturday May 28th an Islamic judge in Bandar-I Bushehr, on Iran's Gulf coast, acquitted pastor Pourmand of charges of apostasy and proselytizing Muslims. Christian news agency Compass Direct has been told that the judge reportedly stated 'I don't know who you are, but the rest-of-the-world does,' a clear reference to the international attention that this case has attracted.'"

Pastor Pourmand was formally charged with apostasy from Islam and proselytizing Muslims in early April. Starting on April 13th He appeared before an Islamic court in Tehran every two or three days. He was repeatedly pressed to return to Islam. These hearings stopped after two weeks. He was transferred to his home town of Bandar-i Bushehr on the 16th May.

"On February 16th 2005 pastor Pourmand was found guilty of this charge despite presenting documents in court that proved his superior were aware he was a Christian before he was promoted to the officer ranks. He was sentenced to three years imprisonment and dishonorably discharged from the army with lost of his income, pension and housing for his family. However, the local authorities delayed evicting his wife and two teenage sons from their army provided housing until the end of the school year

SOURCE

[al yunan]

Dear gmcbroom,
From the number of posts (106) I see you been here long enough to have by now realised that people are people first and foremost then they are something else religious or political. Of course there are some that have yet failed to qualify as human beings. Very rarely you come across a few who are honest products of their beliefs.
Therefore don't take to heart or judge any of us so that it may keep your heart open. It's only information !
"Seek and ye shall find"
Masalam

[Fivesolas]

Had I been born in a Muslim nation to Muslim parents, I would have been born a Muslim. Had I turned from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus and then obeyed the Lord in preaching repentance from dead works and faith toward God through Jesus Christ, I may not live long. As has been stated, I would be prohibited by an Islamic state from seeking to turn Muslims from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus. But this is our commandment, be it imprisonment, death, or whatever.

[جوري]

Had I been born in a Muslim nation to Muslim parents, I would have been born a Muslim. Had I turned from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus and then obeyed the Lord in preaching repentance from dead works and faith toward God through Jesus Christ, I may not live long. As has been stated, I would be prohibited by an Islamic state from seeking to turn Muslims from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus. But this is our commandment, be it imprisonment, death, or whatever.

Quite the opposite actually:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...98#post1434098

It is a wonder Christians are mired in the same medieval mindset of ignorance and superstitions..

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Had I been born in a Muslim nation to Muslim parents, I would have been born a Muslim. Had I turned from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus and then obeyed the Lord in preaching repentance from dead works and faith toward God through Jesus Christ, I may not live long. As has been stated, I would be prohibited by an Islamic state from seeking to turn Muslims from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus. But this is our commandment, be it imprisonment, death, or whatever.

Greetings of peace

I think you should read Brother Woodrows 6th post in this thread. Also keep in mind this also happens Muslim reverts in some parts of the world. And also that as muslims we do not deny Jesus (pbuh) we also believe and follow him, the difference is as a muslim we do not believe him to be our creator or Lord. Oh and another thing there is no such thing as 'Islamic state' in todays world so far, there is no country who practices Islamic shari'ah to the full, so please do not blame this on Islaam blame the 'humans' who are not practising their faith and who dont have knowledge, there are also Christians who do things in the name of Christianity which Jesus (pbuh) never taught.


.. peace ..

[Woodrow]

Had I been born in a Muslim nation to Muslim parents, I would have been born a Muslim. Had I turned from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus and then obeyed the Lord in preaching repentance from dead works and faith toward God through Jesus Christ, I may not live long. As has been stated, I would be prohibited by an Islamic state from seeking to turn Muslims from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus. But this is our commandment, be it imprisonment, death, or whatever.

While I can appreciate your desire to practice your religion, keep in mind a person needs to obey the laws of the Nation they live in. An apostate attempting to convert other Muslims would be first told to cease from doing so. If they did not cease they would most likely be exiled from the nation. To lead a Muslim away from Islam is a crime more serious than murder as it is condemning the one who converts to eternal hellfire. Serious crimes do carry serious penalties.

[Ramadhan]

Had I been born in a Muslim nation to Muslim parents, I would have been born a Muslim. Had I turned from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus and then obeyed the Lord in preaching repentance from dead works and faith toward God through Jesus Christ, I may not live long. As has been stated, I would be prohibited by an Islamic state from seeking to turn Muslims from Islam to faith in the Lord Jesus. But this is our commandment, be it imprisonment, death, or whatever.

Why do you need to convert muslims? muslims already believe in and worship the ONE god, the God of moses and jesus (pbut), and already fulfilled the first commandment and the rest of the commandments from God revealed to Moses and upheld by Jesus.

It may be more beneficial for you to try to re-convert fast increasing numbers of ex-christians who become atheists and agnostics who flee christianity because worshipping a human being as God is making no sense to them.

That would be a challenge.
LOL.

[JPR]

It may be more beneficial for you to try to re-convert fast increasing numbers of ex-christians who become atheists and agnostics who flee christianity because worshipping a human being as God is making no sense to them

This is a popular misconception many muslims seem to have about christians and how one "becomes" christian. We are not born christians but we make the conscious decision of becoming one. What you call ex-christians are in fact people born and raised in a christian family but decide to not get baptized and be atheist or simply disbelieve. Most people reject en masse the concept of "God" or of the divine, so they reject christian AND muslim beliefs.

I say it is a misconception amongst muslims because in most islamic countries, if you are born to muslim parents, you are de facto, muslim.

Just wanted to clear this out.

[جوري]

This is a popular misconception many muslims seem to have about christians and how one "becomes" christian. We are not born christians but we make the conscious decision of becoming one. What you call ex-christians are in fact people born and raised in a christian family but decide to not get baptized and be atheist or simply disbelieve. Most people reject en masse the concept of "God" or of the divine, so they reject christian AND muslim beliefs.

I say it is a misconception amongst muslims because in most islamic countries, if you are born to muslim parents, you are de facto, muslim.

Just wanted to clear this out.

That is sadly another delusion of yours and ignorance is indeed rampant amongst Christians .. as is there are levels of religiosity in Islam. To be Muslim is the lowest form..
there is Islam/Iman/ikhlas/Ihsan.. as is mentioned in the Quran .. we all have to renew our covenant and discover our faith, in fact Islam is the only religion perhaps that makes it compulsory to seek knowledge and favors a believer who is knowledgeable over one who worships all day!

all the best

[JPR]

That is sadly another delusion of yours and ignorance is indeed rampant amongst Christians .. as is there are levels of religiosity in Islam. To be Muslim is the lowest form.. there is Islam/Iman/ikhlas/Ihsan.. as is mentioned in the Quran .. we all have to renew our covenant and discover our faith, in fact Islam is the only religion perhaps that makes it compulsory to seek knowledge and favors a believer who is knowledgeable over one who worships all day! all the best

I'm not arguing with you on that point, I'm just saying that in most muslim countries, you are considered muslim if you are born from muslim parents.

Here's an example of what I mean:

This makes it almost impossible for Malay Muslims to convert, since they must first apply to the sharia court for permission to change their religion.

Courts are reluctant to grant this permission, since ethnic Malays are considered Muslims from birth. The same does not apply to other ethnic groups, for example ethnic groups in the states of Sarawak and Sabah, who are predominantly Christian.


Not saying this is the same everywhere and that you shouldn't improve your knowledge of Islam if you want to become a better muslim. Just like in the west a lot of "christians" do not practice or read the Bible, I'm sure the same happens in muslim countries.

Peace!

[Woodrow]

This is a popular misconception many muslims seem to have about christians and how one "becomes" christian. We are not born christians but we make the conscious decision of becoming one. What you call ex-christians are in fact people born and raised in a christian family but decide to not get baptized and be atheist or simply disbelieve. Most people reject en masse the concept of "God" or of the divine, so they reject christian AND muslim beliefs.

I say it is a misconception amongst muslims because in most islamic countries, if you are born to muslim parents, you are de facto, muslim.

Just wanted to clear this out.

Except that does not hold true for all Christians. Catholics. Lutherans, Presbyterian. Anglican. Episcopalian, United Methodist and Orthodox are Baptised shortly after birth. they are born into their Faith.

[جوري]

I'm not arguing with you on that point, I'm just saying that in most muslim countries, you are considered muslim if you are born from muslim parents.

Here's an example of what I mean:

This makes it almost impossible for Malay Muslims to convert, since they must first apply to the sharia court for permission to change their religion.

Courts are reluctant to grant this permission, since ethnic Malays are considered Muslims from birth. The same does not apply to other ethnic groups, for example ethnic groups in the states of Sarawak and Sabah, who are predominantly Christian.


Not saying this is the same everywhere and that you shouldn't improve your knowledge of Islam if you want to become a better muslim. Just like in the west a lot of "christians" do not practice or read the Bible, I'm sure the same happens in muslim countries.


Peace!

lol.. what you mean must have come from the annals of the evangelists or the stealth crusade?

further who in their right mind would want to convert to Christianity? What exactly does Christianity offer .. it is a sincere question?
When I wasn't a practicing Muslim or Muslim only in name I identified with Agnostics and Atheists.. you think someone who is on the cusp about God and their beliefs will choose even lesser more nonsensical beliefs?

all the best

[جوري]

Except that does not hold true for all Christians. Catholics. Lutherans, Presbyterian. Anglican. Episcopalian, United Methodist and Orthodox are Baptised shortly after birth. they are born into their Faith.

jzk.. I hadn't thought to point out how even less logical than appears to the naked eyes his argument..

:w:

[Sol Invictus]

While I can appreciate your desire to practice your religion, keep in mind a person needs to obey the laws of the Nation they live in. An apostate attempting to convert other Muslims would be first told to cease from doing so. If they did not cease they would most likely be exiled from the nation. To lead a Muslim away from Islam is a crime more serious than murder as it is condemning the one who converts to eternal hellfire. Serious crimes do carry serious penalties.

greetings woodrow. i should ask you what you would think if the situation were reversed. would you feel it to be right for a government to limit the freedoms of muslims as it comes to practising their religion (as is happening in france and throughout europe) or do you disagree with this? if muslims were not allowed to engage in da'wah, would you support such a law or not? i don't think you would and as such i must ask you on what basis you could disagree with the nation who would severely limit the practise of islam, but not disagree with the hypothetical muslim nation limiting the practises of those of other faiths (and in this regard we are simply focusing on proselytizing). as i see it, to agree with one and yet disagree with the other would attest to a sense of hypocrisy yet instead of labelling you as such, i am more interested in learning your reasons for why one scenario is perfectly alright, while the other isn't.

(i suppose that you could perhaps say that your decision lies on islam being the truth yet until the day that the heavens open and the muslim deity himself sets up his government on earth, this cannot be a premise on which to base your argument on. anyway i digress, i'm interested in understanding your position and not necessarily in preempting your points.)

[Sol Invictus]

Except that does not hold true for all Christians. Catholics. Lutherans, Presbyterian. Anglican. Episcopalian, United Methodist and Orthodox are Baptised shortly after birth. they are born into their Faith.

christians in name only. which is why they have to go through the process of confirmation when they become of age. if they had actually been born into the faith then this next step would not be needed and yet it is and as such i would seriously have to contest the point that these children are christians in the full sense of the word*.

*the above language is incredibly imprecise but i feel that you'll understand what i mean.

[Woodrow]

greetings woodrow. i should ask you what you would think if the situation were reversed. would you feel it to be right for a government to limit the freedoms of muslims as it comes to practising their religion (as is happening in france and throughout europe) or do you disagree with this? if muslims were not allowed to engage in da'wah, would you support such a law or not? i don't think you would and as such i must ask you on what basis you could disagree with the nation who would severely limit the practise of islam, but not disagree with the hypothetical muslim nation limiting the practises of those of other faiths (and in this regard we are simply focusing on proselytizing). as i see it, to agree with one and yet disagree with the other would attest to a sense of hypocrisy yet instead of labelling you as such, i am more interested in learning your reasons for why one scenario is perfectly alright, while the other isn't.

(i suppose that you could perhaps say that your decision lies on islam being the truth yet until the day that the heavens open and the muslim deity himself sets up his government on earth, this cannot be a premise on which to base your argument on. anyway i digress, i'm interested in understanding your position and not necessarily in preempting your points.)

Peace sol,

Yes Da'wah is a required part of our faith. but it does not rely on proselytizing. Here in the USA the most sincere Dawah is to simply live following Islam and to promote Islam through deeds and not words or preaching. Like many reverts I never had as much as one Muslim try to get me to revert to Islam. Yet, Islam found me and I accepted. I said my shahadah with only Allaah as my witness and without knowing if even one Muslim living in Texas

Even here on this forum you will often see new reverts who have come to learn more about Islam as they do not know any Muslims. Laws limiting or restricting Dawah would not affect me. However I do oppose laws that prevent us from wearing symbols of our faith such as hijab, beards, etc. But, I also oppose laws here that forbid the wearing of crosses, ringing of Church bells etc. My current campaign is to try to help overturn the recent laws that forbid some of the religious dances of the Lakotah who follow the traditional religion.

If a country claims it is a specific religion I would accept their right to restrict or limit the practices of another faith and would most likely not live there if I disagreed with the religion. However if a nations purports to allow religious freedom, I expect all religions to be treated equally.

[Ramadhan]

This is a popular misconception many muslims seem to have about christians and how one "becomes" christian. We are not born christians but we make the conscious decision of becoming one. What you call ex-christians are in fact people born and raised in a christian family but decide to not get baptized and be atheist or simply disbelieve.

It may be you are completely ignorant or you are delusional, but I've met plenty of catholics who were baptized but later when they could think for themselves that what they worshipped were actually human beings, they flee catholicism.
The same with other brands of christianity, I've met in real life many christians (some were even trained in seminary) who decided to forgo human-worshiping and would rather be content in agnosticism (with some finally reverted to Islam).

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
I wouldn't say he's ignorant or delusional but you do have a point. In the secular world we all live in today there are many who embrace a faith as a child and when they become adults they, don't practice it (typically in college is when they stop). I work with quite a few catholics who no longer practice some even going to non denominational churches or becoming agnostics. When I've asked them why they left, they usually said its because they got a divorce and they didn't think they could stay catholic and they were a fraid an annulment would make their children illegitament. It's sad actually, if they'd have bothered to ask their priests they would have found out that the church never deems the children as illegitament after an annulment.
Over time those that went to nondenominational churches eventually picked up the same beliefs as the non denoms. It's sad really. None of them ever said anything about human worshipping to me but if you said it then you must have met one or two that did for that reason as misguided as that is as it shows they didn't understand catholism to begin with.

Peace be with you