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'Abd-al Latif
05-04-2011, 09:49 AM
A poignant article by a writer from The Independent, arguing that killing bin Laden is not 'justice'...

Independent.co.uk


Geoffrey Robertson: Why it's absurd to claim that justice has been done

America resembles the land of the munchkins, as it celebrates the death of the Wicked Witch of the East. The joy is understandable, but in some respects, unattractive. It endorses what looks increasingly like a cold-blooded assassination ordered by a president who, as a former law professor, knows the absurdity of his statement that “justice was done”. Amoral diplomats and triumphant politicians join in applauding Bin Laden’s summary execution because they claim real justice – arrest, trial and sentence would have been too difficult in the case of Bin Laden. But in the long-term interests of a better world, should it not at least have been attempted?

That future depends on a respect for international law. The circumstances of Bin Laden’s killing are as yet unclear and the initial objection that the operation was an illegitimate invasion of Pakistan’s sovereignty must be rejected. Necessity required the capture of this indicted and active international criminal and Pakistan’s abject failure (whether through incompetence or connivance) justified Obama’s order for an operation to apprehend him. However, the terms of that order, as yet undisclosed, are all important. Bill Clinton admitted recently to having secretly approved teh assassination of Bin Laden by the CIA after the US embassy bombings in the1990s, while President Bush publicly said after 9/11 that he wanted Bin Laden’s head on a plate. Did President Obama order his capture, or his execution?

Details of the so-called “fire-fight” remain obscure. The law permits criminals to be shot in self-defence. They should, if possible, be given the opportunity to surrender, but even if they do not come out with their hands up, they must be taken alive, if that can be achieved without risk. Exactly how Bin Laden came to be shot (especially if it was in the back of the head, execution-style) therefore requires explanation. Why the hasty “burial at sea” without a post-mortem, as the law requires?

But the chorus celebrating summary execution is rationalised on the basis that this is one terrorist for whom trial would be unnecessary, difficult and dangerous. It overlooks the downsides – that killing Bin Laden has made him a martyr – more dangerous in that posthumous role than in hiding, and that both his legend and the conspiracy theories about 9/11 will live on undisputed by the evidence that would have been called at his trial.

Even worse, killing Bin Laden gave him the consummation he most devoutly wished, namely a fast-track to paradise. His belief system required him to die mid-Jihad, from an infidel bullet – not of old age on a prison farm in upstate New York. For this reason he would have refused any offer to surrender, and no doubt died with a smile on his lips.

I do not minimise the security issues at his trial or the danger of it ending up as a squalid circus like that of Saddam Hussein. But the notion that any form of legal process would have been too hard must be rejected. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - also alleged to be the architect of 9/11 - will shortly go on trial and had Bin Laden been captured, he should have been put in the dock alongside him, so that their shared responsibility could have been properly examined.

Bin Laden could not have been tried for 9/11 at the International Criminal Court – its jurisdiction only came into existence nine months later. But the Security Council could have set up an ad hoc tribunal in The Hague, with international judges (including Muslim jurists), to provide a fair trial and a reasoned verdict.

This would have been the best way of de-mystifying this man, debunking his cause and de-brainwashing his followers. In the dock he would have been reduced in stature – never more remembered as the tall, soulful figure on the mountain, but as a hateful and hate-filled old man, screaming from the dock or lying from the witness box.

Since his videos exalt in the killing of innocent civilians, any cross-examination would have emphasised his inhumanity. These benefits flowing from justice have forever been foregone.

America’s belief in capital punishment is reflected in its rejoicing at the manner of Bin Laden’s demise. It is ironic to reflect that Bill Clinton secured his election by approving the execution of Ricky Roy Rector (a convict so brain-damaged that he ordered pumpkin pie for his last meal and said that he would “leave the rest until later”). And now Barak Obama has most likely secured his re-election approving the execution of Bin Laden. This may be welcome, given the alternatives. But it is a sad reflection on the continuing attraction of summary justice.

It was not always thus. When the time came to consider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Bin Laden – the Nazi leadership – the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution “would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride?the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear”. He insisted upon judgment at Nuremberg, which has confounded Holocaust-deniers ever since.

Killing instead of capturing Osama Bin Laden was a missed opportunity to prove to the world that this charismatic leader was in fact a vicious criminal, who deserved to die of old age in prison, and not as a martyr to his inhuman cause.

Geoffrey Robertson QC is author of Crimes Against Humanity (Penguin)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-2278041.html
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SAKER
05-27-2011, 10:05 PM
Islam in my opinion has more emergencies things to be concerned about than just one person DEATH .....

Al qaida present their self aNd don ´t havE the right imposing their opinion upon Muslims world

wa salam.
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DippedinJannah
07-06-2011, 06:27 PM
As an American, I feel the following:

  • Osama bin Laden and his colleagues did tremendous evil in the world.
  • I do not mourn for him. I personally thing capturing and imprisoning him would have been a better example.
  • I don't think OBL represents Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity.
  • I can't personally judge him (that is for Allah swt)
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Mr.President
07-06-2011, 06:34 PM
I do not know about osama bin L so I don't wanna comment about the things which I dont have knowledge about so I think I should be silent on these knids of issues

If any1 ask is osama a terrorist ? my answer I DONT KNOW !
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Who Am I?
07-06-2011, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DippedinJannah
As an American, I feel the following:

  • Osama bin Laden and his colleagues did tremendous evil in the world.
  • I do not mourn for him. I personally thing capturing and imprisoning him would have been a better example.
  • I don't think OBL represents Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity.
  • I can't personally judge him (that is for Allah swt)
Same. I never thought OBL was a true Muslim, nor do I think Al-Quaeda are true Muslims. He was just one of many who use religion to accomplish their own political or social agendas. History is full of examples of these kind of people.
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Ramadhan
07-07-2011, 02:58 AM
Has OBL actually been tried and convicted for any crime? or did he ever confess that he masterminded the destruction of the twin towers?
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Just_A_Girl13
07-07-2011, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DippedinJannah
As an American, I feel the following:
Osama bin Laden and his colleagues did tremendous evil in the world.
I do not mourn for him. I personally thing capturing and imprisoning him would have been a better example.
I don't think OBL represents Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity.
I can't personally judge him (that is for Allah swt)
I agree completely.
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Jalal~
07-07-2011, 05:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Has OBL actually been tried and convicted for any crime? or did he ever confess that he masterminded the destruction of the twin towers?
yea, i thought he admitted that in one of his videos that he sent to the media, didnt he?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html
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Riana17
07-07-2011, 05:26 AM
SALAM

Ofcourse it is non Islamic to hurt even an animal, whatever it may be. Unless you are protecting youself (jihad)

If Osama Bin Laden exist, he would have made alot of trouble bombing here & there and not just the Pentagon for 10years.
If Osama was killed, americans must gather videos, albums and all to show his death, celebrate his death perhaps, this is nothing but for a proper closure

Otherwise, Osama it is just imaginatory to me
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Ramadhan
07-07-2011, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by halalmeat4free
yea, i thought he admitted that in one of his videos that he sent to the media, didnt he? http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html
Can you please quote where in the article by PBS that he admitted he masterminded the 9/11?
Even going by the PBS report, it seems very vague to me. Not to mention many have considered OBL's vids as being fake. Even Walter Conkrite has opined that Karl Rove was behind the tapes, which conveniently always released whenever US presidnet needed a boost.

Meanwhile, he has denied in straightforward manner that he was responsible for 9/11 right after it happened:
In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.
"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/1...nladen.denial/
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Who Am I?
07-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Even before I was a Muslim, it just felt wrong to me seeing the videos of people cheering in the streets when it was announced that OBL was killed. I don't think you should ever celebrate a person's death, no matter how evil they may have been.
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ProudMuslimSis
07-07-2011, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Meanwhile, he has denied in straightforward manner that he was responsible for 9/11 right after it happened:
In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.
"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/1...nladen.denial/
Interesting article! Thank you for sharing brother. I never know this!
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Ramadhan
07-08-2011, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
Even before I was a Muslim, it just felt wrong to me seeing the videos of people cheering in the streets when it was announced that OBL was killed. I don't think you should ever celebrate a person's death, no matter how evil they may have been.
What I found much more unbelievable is the OK reaction by americans who do not seem to be critical and asking questions why there is no proof/evidence that OBL was captured in that operation.

After trillions of dollars, thousands of american lives and hundred of thousands of afghanis, destruction and destabilizations of a whole country and the neighboring country,
would you as americans not want the main perpetrator be brought to US soil and tried and convicted for all those crimes he purpotedly committed, in order to serve justice and closures to all family and friends of the victims?

Are the american masses really that gullible and accept every single thing their government and media shove down their throat for the explanation as to why OBL was brought into the US ship and killed at sea? After all these trillions of dollars of taxpayers money?
And there's not even video, etc?
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Just_A_Girl13
07-08-2011, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
After trillions of dollars, thousands of american lives and hundred of thousands of afghanis, destruction and destabilizations of a whole country and the neighboring country, would you as americans not want the main perpetrator be brought to US soil and tried and convicted for all those crimes he purpotedly committed, in order to serve justice and closures to all family and friends of the victims?
Yes. Most of the people I've talked to agree that this would have been the best thing to do. A trial would almost certainly have been better.


format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Are the american masses really that gullible and accept every single thing their government and media shove down their throat for the explanation as to why OBL was brought into the US ship and killed at sea?
Yes, yes we are.
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MustafaMc
07-08-2011, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DippedinJannah
As an American, I feel the following:


  • Osama bin Laden and his colleagues did tremendous evil in the world.
  • I do not mourn for him. I personally thing capturing and imprisoning him would have been a better example.
  • I don't think OBL represents Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity.
  • I can't personally judge him (that is for Allah swt)
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
I don't think you should ever celebrate a person's death, no matter how evil they may have been.
I beg to differ with those presuming the guilt of OBL and KSM for the crimes that they are accused of. The last that I knew according to the American tradition of justice, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty and the accusation does not equate to guilt no matter how vehemently the accusations are made. I have not seen evidence to prove that OBL masterminded the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, certainly not enough proof to justify assassinating him without a trial. In fact there is scientific evidence that is contrary to the official story of 19 Muslim terrorist flying jetliners in suicide attacks as the reason for the collapse of the Twin Towers. We as Muslims are in no position to judge another person as either evil or righteous.
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Jalal~
07-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Even if he did what America claims that he did, it shouldnt matter~He's a Muslim and he made a mistake, a very huge sin, and we all make mistakes/sins in our lifetime. So we shouldnt hate him, we should just ask Allah to forgive him, its the least we can do. I mean, its not like he comitted shirk, he did a sin that is forgivable, right? In one Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) is reported to have said, 'If a person has sins equivalent to the foams of the sea and pebbles on a desert, Allah's mercy is so encompassing that He will forgive every sin.' In another narration, it is mentioned that Allah will speak secretly to one of His slaves on the day of Qiyaamat and remind him of all his sins. After the person will confess his sins, Allah will say to him, 'I concealed your faults in the world, today too, I will conceal your faults. Go in Jannah, I have forgiven you.' But on the day of judgement, we shall all find out the truth.
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GuestFellow
07-08-2011, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Has OBL actually been tried and convicted for any crime? or did he ever confess that he masterminded the destruction of the twin towers?
Salaam,

His confession is not required.

I watched a documentary called the Power of Nightmares. According to this documentary, a person head of a criminal organisation can be prosecuted for the crimes committed by its members. There is no need to prove the person in charge had actually carried out any criminal activity.

There were attacks against western embassies. Some US officials thought Osama was behind the attacks but there was no sufficient evidence to prove such connection. Therefore, the CIA created some sort of group (Al-Qaeda) where Osama was in charge. There are militants but there was no proper organisation. After 9/11, the US government blamed Osama and said the militants behind the attack were from a group called Al-Qaeda. Since Osama is supposedly in charge of that group, there is no need to prove that he was actually involved in the attacks.
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Who Am I?
07-08-2011, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

What I found much more unbelievable is the OK reaction by americans who do not seem to be critical and asking questions why there is no proof/evidence that OBL was captured in that operation.

After trillions of dollars, thousands of american lives and hundred of thousands of afghanis, destruction and destabilizations of a whole country and the neighboring country,
would you as americans not want the main perpetrator be brought to US soil and tried and convicted for all those crimes he purpotedly committed, in order to serve justice and closures to all family and friends of the victims?

Are the american masses really that gullible and accept every single thing their government and media shove down their throat for the explanation as to why OBL was brought into the US ship and killed at sea? After all these trillions of dollars of taxpayers money?
And there's not even video, etc?
Well I myself said to some of my co-workers that until I saw a body or saw photos of him in custody, I didn't believe he was really dead. I never understood the whole "buried him at sea" thing anyway.

I beg to differ with those presuming the guilt of OBL and KSM for the crimes that they are accused of. The last that I knew according to the American tradition of justice, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty and the accusation does not equate to guilt no matter how vehemently the accusations are made. I have not seen evidence to prove that OBL masterminded the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, certainly not enough proof to justify assassinating him without a trial. In fact there is scientific evidence that is contrary to the official story of 19 Muslim terrorist flying jetliners in suicide attacks as the reason for the collapse of the Twin Towers. We as Muslims are in no position to judge another person as either evil or righteous.
Notice that I said he "may have been" evil. I didn't say he "was". I know a lot of people have doubts about 9/11, and I have seen some documentaries that present some compelling evidence that it may have been a government plot. I myself don't really know one way or the other, and I'm not sure I even care anymore.
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MustafaMc
07-09-2011, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
Notice that I said he "may have been" evil. I didn't say he "was".
Yes, you wrote 'may' and not 'was'.
I know a lot of people have doubts about 9/11, and I have seen some documentaries that present some compelling evidence that it may have been a government plot.
I didn't say who was responsible, rather that there is apparently evidence contrary to the official story.
I myself don't really know one way or the other, and I'm not sure I even care anymore.
I rather find that I do care because that single event flavors most American's opinion about Islam and Muslims and it is implied as the reason for the 'Global War on Terror' and why we are in Afghanistan and Iraq. To not care about what really happened is to be complicit with the resulting consequences.

I saw graffiti in a McDonald's, "Kill all radical Muslims before they kill you". When I complained to a cashier, a bystander said, "Why are you upset because it is just like the Golden Rule. You remember 9/11, don't you?"

I also listened to a seminar at the very Baptist church I grew up in across the AL/MS border near Mobile, 'Revealing the Truth About Islam'. The presenter, Usama Dakdok, said on a video on the internet , "Do you believe in a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? ... There is no good Muslim."

These are 2 examples of the demonization of Muslims that is at least partly related to Muslims almost universally being accepted (in America) as responsible for 9/11.
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Who Am I?
07-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Well what I mean when I say that I don't care is that nothing else matters to me right now except finding my inner peace and becoming someone I am proud of. The "War on Terror", the Palestinians vs Israelis, none of that will determine who I am as a person. None of that will make me a better man. So I try not to think about all of that.

For what it's worth, I always thought Muslims got a bad rep, even before I became one. Every religion has its nuts. There are Christians who bomb abortion clinics and beat up gays in the name of their religion. Hindus attack Muslims in India. It is something that will continue to happen as long as there is evil in the world.
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MustafaMc
07-09-2011, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
Well what I mean when I say that I don't care is that nothing else matters to me right now except finding my inner peace and becoming someone I am proud of. The "War on Terror", the Palestinians vs Israelis, none of that will determine who I am as a person. None of that will make me a better man. So I try not to think about all of that.
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you 100%. What is most important is to become well grounded in Islam. This will be a big adjustment for you to adopt the Islamic way of life and I admire your desire to become a better person.

I have studied this event so much because the association in the media of Islam with terrorism and suicide bombers was one of the primary reasons why I quit practicing Islam in 1985. Coincidentally, I decided to practice again in June 2001 and remember thinking that one day I will die and I could not use the excuse on Judgment Day of what others did in the name of Islam as the reason why I did not worship my Creator in the way that was prescribed for me. ... then of course came 9/11 that was an extremely hard test for me to continue on the Way I had chosen. For myself, I refuse to allow anyone to associate me as a Muslim with any act of terrorism as I emphatically disagree with any killing of innocent people.
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Who Am I?
07-09-2011, 08:51 PM
I understand what you're saying, and inshallah I will be there one day. But first I need to work on myself and my relationship with Allah. Then inshallah everything else will sort itself out.
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MustafaMc
07-09-2011, 10:57 PM
Brother, I hope that I have not offended you with my frank words. I implore you to not internalize what others say negatively about Islam and Muslims as you may get discouraged. Many Christians look for any means to demonize Islam including those who seem to reach out to Muslims in 'Interfaith Dialog'. Recently, a Christian posted on FaceBook an article about 'Honor Killings' in Libya of women who became pregnant after getting raped by soldiers. She seemed to imply that this phenomenon was a reflection on the faith of the Libyan people. My point is to not accept all that you read and hear about Islam and Muslims as being true. Islam does not sanction suicide or unjustified killing of innocent people.
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GuestFellow
07-09-2011, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
Notice that I said he "may have been" evil. I didn't say he "was". I know a lot of people have doubts about 9/11, and I have seen some documentaries that present some compelling evidence that it may have been a government plot. I myself don't really know one way or the other, and I'm not sure I even care anymore.
Hi,

I highly doubt 9/11 was a government plot. It would be extremely risky. I suspect there might have been negligence on part of the US government to prevent such attacks. Then again, this issue has arisen in the past.

Some people claim the US knew about Japan intention to attack Pearl Habour and did nothing to prevent such attack in order to get involved in WW2. There is also the operation northwood incident...the documents called for the CIA to carry out terrorist attacks on its own citizens in order to start a war with Cuba but this was rejected.

I have researched 9/11 by reading the 9/11 commission report and several articles. The more you learn about this particular event, the more difficult it is to understand what exactly happened. There really needs to be another investigation.

I think it is best not to jump to conclusions about what happened and be open minded.
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Who Am I?
07-10-2011, 02:34 AM
:sl:

Now I do believe that Roosevelt knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl, yet he did nothing because he wanted the USA to enter WW2 to get us out of the Great Depression. There is some evidence to suggest that some people in the US government knew about the attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_H...spiracy_theory

I think Jimi Hendrix was assassinated by government agents for his open attacks of the Vietnam War. That is merely personal opinion as there is not a lot of evidence to support it.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Brother, I hope that I have not offended you with my frank words. I implore you to not internalize what others say negatively about Islam and Muslims as you may get discouraged. Many Christians look for any means to demonize Islam including those who seem to reach out to Muslims in 'Interfaith Dialog'. Recently, a Christian posted on FaceBook an article about 'Honor Killings' in Libya of women who became pregnant after getting raped by soldiers. She seemed to imply that this phenomenon was a reflection on the faith of the Libyan people. My point is to not accept all that you read and hear about Islam and Muslims as being true. Islam does not sanction suicide or unjustified killing of innocent people.

Brother, no offense taken. I understand where you're coming from. I admit that there is a lot that I still don't know, but this is when I ask questions and find out on my own. I don't just blindly accept what I am told. If I had done that, I would not be sitting here in this forum right now. I would continue to think that Islam is an evil religion.
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rybak303
07-12-2011, 01:21 PM
First off regarding Abd-al Latif's comment "He knows what Osama did, what he didn’t do, and what we were made to believe that he did. In any case, he died as a Muslim and it is an established part of our Islamic creed that every Muslim, unlike the disbelievers, will eventually enter paradise." Is a man who condones suicide bombers blowing up mosques filled with Muslims and burning down schools for little girls really a Muslim? Did Muhammad fight the enemies of Islam by slaughtering his own people and encouraging blind ignorance among women? If Muhammad fought like Bin Laden the early believers would have cannibalized themselves before they even reached the gates of Mecca. Bin Laden, like the Taliban in general, are savages confusing their savage delusions for genuine belief.
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جوري
07-12-2011, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rybak303
Bin Laden, like the Taliban in general, are savages confusing their savage delusions for genuine belief.

you're a commodity and a perfect poster boy for corporate media concocted drivel .. Congratulations!!! .. maybe you'll wake up when your economy is in the dumps, your 'brave boys' shipped back to you in body bags and whatever centimes you've accumulated are funneled to Israel so they can sell your technology to china Israel-accused-of-selling-us-secrets-to-china-1510406.html and kiss goodbye the dollar and welcome the amero The Plan to Replace the Dollar With the 'Amero' .. I am really sick of under-educated media vessels dictating to us the definition of 'evil' or 'savagery' from a world's stand view, there are no worse savages than have been spawned in your neck of the woods... If you want to discuss civility with us try for an independent analytical thought, google and your ten o'clock news doesn't substitute for brains, political analyses or an accurate historical record.

Not sure how much longer America and its poodles in Europe can further their agenda in face of middle eastern uprising and a very ailing economy.. Maybe you can get another one of those war mongering twits/analysts to come on and tell us how the mission in Afghanistan was a success and time to withdraw the troops.. Oh wait aren't they doing that already?

good luck with all of that, the way you view Islam and Muslims or those like you or the western vision of a 'new middle east' in general has very little consequence to what Muslims feel or what Islam actually says or what will come to pass!

best,
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~ Sabr ~
05-16-2012, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Has OBL actually been tried and convicted for any crime? or did he ever confess that he masterminded the destruction of the twin towers?
He's admitted it on so many videos. Come on people. Wake up. Actually don't - he's dead so that's good. Nothing to worry about now.
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Insaanah
05-16-2012, 04:57 PM
:sl:

The fact we need to wake up to, is that Allah knows best, and that regardless of what he may have apparently said, the evidence, even among astute non-Muslims, did not add up nor point to him.

We don't know if a particular person being dead is good for us (unless one has knowledge of the future and the unseen) and we don't know if there's nothing to worry about now, because we don't know what's round the corner.

And Allah knows best in all matters.
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MustafaMc
05-16-2012, 05:18 PM
... again believe none of what you hear (especially through the media) and only half of what you see.
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Abz2000
05-16-2012, 06:11 PM
9/11 was an inside job, full stop.
want proofs?
just ask, but don't accuse a muslim brother for something you can prove was impossible for him to have done.
even American non-muslims are waking up to the fact:



yes, he denied knowledge of it first and even denounced the act, then it seemed people pretending to be mujahideen told him they were responsible and only revenge.
and he, like any other who doesn't want to denounce his "muslim brothers", seems to have decided on solidarity, personally i'd say he let his love for mujahideen cloud his good judgement, but the act of 9/11 was impossible for anyone who can't get norad to stand down to commit.

here are some comments from americans:
For a bad man he seems to know what he's talking about and B4 I hated him but now I kind of like him. The truth needs to be heard.

Thankyou George Bush. I'm a white westerner who didn't like Muslims because the media, society, even my family told me they were bad. Then 9/11 happened and everyone started hating on Islam even more. I didn't believe you George, that any religeon could do this. I did my own research and found the real truth. The truth is Islam and alhamduilillah, I'm a Muslim now. Allah(swt) used your lies to wake me up. Sheik Osama wasn't the bad guy after all. Thankyou theislamicarmy720 for your upload.salaam

There is no clear evidence that he killed 3000, all evidences show that official 9/11 story is false.

Sad but it's becoming clearer everyday that our government is a lying, cruel shameful entity. That's out of control. He's not lying about what America did to them.

he speaks the truth!!! We Americans need to hear the truth....we are blind


here's a comment from an air force colonel:

Regarding the failure of NORAD to intercept the four hijacked planes on 9/11, Col. Bowman said, “I'm an old interceptor pilot. I know the drill. I've done it. I know how long it takes. I know the rules.… Critics of the government story on 9/11 have said: ‘Well, they knew about this, and they did nothing’.
That's not true.
If our government had done nothing that day and let normal procedure be followed,
those planes, wherever they were, would have been intercepted,
the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.”

During his 22-year Air Force career, Col. Bowman also served as the Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. He also flew over 100 combat missions in Viet Nam as a fighter pilot.


just see this link:
http://www.mountingevidence.org/911-resources.html

and this:
http://abz2000.com/FalseflagTerror.aspx


O you who believe!

If a wicked person comes to you with any news,
ascertain the truth,
lest you harm people in ignorance,
and afterwards become full of repentance for what you have done.
(Al-Quran 49:6)
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BadOlPuttyTat
05-16-2012, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
A poignant article by a writer from The Independent, arguing that killing bin Laden is not 'justice'...

Independent.co.uk


Geoffrey Robertson: Why it's absurd to claim that justice has been done

America resembles the land of the munchkins, as it celebrates the death of the Wicked Witch of the East. The joy is understandable, but in some respects, unattractive. It endorses what looks increasingly like a cold-blooded assassination ordered by a president who, as a former law professor, knows the absurdity of his statement that “justice was done”. Amoral diplomats and triumphant politicians join in applauding Bin Laden’s summary execution because they claim real justice – arrest, trial and sentence would have been too difficult in the case of Bin Laden. But in the long-term interests of a better world, should it not at least have been attempted?

That future depends on a respect for international law. The circumstances of Bin Laden’s killing are as yet unclear and the initial objection that the operation was an illegitimate invasion of Pakistan’s sovereignty must be rejected. Necessity required the capture of this indicted and active international criminal and Pakistan’s abject failure (whether through incompetence or connivance) justified Obama’s order for an operation to apprehend him. However, the terms of that order, as yet undisclosed, are all important. Bill Clinton admitted recently to having secretly approved teh assassination of Bin Laden by the CIA after the US embassy bombings in the1990s, while President Bush publicly said after 9/11 that he wanted Bin Laden’s head on a plate. Did President Obama order his capture, or his execution?

Details of the so-called “fire-fight” remain obscure. The law permits criminals to be shot in self-defence. They should, if possible, be given the opportunity to surrender, but even if they do not come out with their hands up, they must be taken alive, if that can be achieved without risk. Exactly how Bin Laden came to be shot (especially if it was in the back of the head, execution-style) therefore requires explanation. Why the hasty “burial at sea” without a post-mortem, as the law requires?

But the chorus celebrating summary execution is rationalised on the basis that this is one terrorist for whom trial would be unnecessary, difficult and dangerous. It overlooks the downsides – that killing Bin Laden has made him a martyr – more dangerous in that posthumous role than in hiding, and that both his legend and the conspiracy theories about 9/11 will live on undisputed by the evidence that would have been called at his trial.

Even worse, killing Bin Laden gave him the consummation he most devoutly wished, namely a fast-track to paradise. His belief system required him to die mid-Jihad, from an infidel bullet – not of old age on a prison farm in upstate New York. For this reason he would have refused any offer to surrender, and no doubt died with a smile on his lips.

I do not minimise the security issues at his trial or the danger of it ending up as a squalid circus like that of Saddam Hussein. But the notion that any form of legal process would have been too hard must be rejected. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - also alleged to be the architect of 9/11 - will shortly go on trial and had Bin Laden been captured, he should have been put in the dock alongside him, so that their shared responsibility could have been properly examined.

Bin Laden could not have been tried for 9/11 at the International Criminal Court – its jurisdiction only came into existence nine months later. But the Security Council could have set up an ad hoc tribunal in The Hague, with international judges (including Muslim jurists), to provide a fair trial and a reasoned verdict.

This would have been the best way of de-mystifying this man, debunking his cause and de-brainwashing his followers. In the dock he would have been reduced in stature – never more remembered as the tall, soulful figure on the mountain, but as a hateful and hate-filled old man, screaming from the dock or lying from the witness box.

Since his videos exalt in the killing of innocent civilians, any cross-examination would have emphasised his inhumanity. These benefits flowing from justice have forever been foregone.

America’s belief in capital punishment is reflected in its rejoicing at the manner of Bin Laden’s demise. It is ironic to reflect that Bill Clinton secured his election by approving the execution of Ricky Roy Rector (a convict so brain-damaged that he ordered pumpkin pie for his last meal and said that he would “leave the rest until later”). And now Barak Obama has most likely secured his re-election approving the execution of Bin Laden. This may be welcome, given the alternatives. But it is a sad reflection on the continuing attraction of summary justice.

It was not always thus. When the time came to consider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Bin Laden – the Nazi leadership – the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution “would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride?the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear”. He insisted upon judgment at Nuremberg, which has confounded Holocaust-deniers ever since.

Killing instead of capturing Osama Bin Laden was a missed opportunity to prove to the world that this charismatic leader was in fact a vicious criminal, who deserved to die of old age in prison, and not as a martyr to his inhuman cause.

Geoffrey Robertson QC is author of Crimes Against Humanity (Penguin)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-2278041.html

Sad to say this but justice was done. This is a secular opinion Obama stated, justice is the original code of Hammurabi. "Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth". Justice is equality int hat if you kill you get killed and if you steal you get stolen from. That is natural secular justice. Osama started as a hero and all freeing Afghan but the Republican US aligned itself with Iraqi and Egyptian dictatorships just for oil and safer passage for war profits. Osama's entire hatred was that the US made so many numerous proxy wars killing people just for greed. His debate was was factual although the issue is he pushed things by killing innocent people making him an enemy. Both parties on this "war on terror" are both equal in bloodshed and both as stupid in purpose as of now. Its pitiful but the USA doesnt understand how to deal with theocratic governments. In the middle east the government is religion and religion is government so declaring war on the government is declaring war on the religion basically.
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BadOlPuttyTat
05-16-2012, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Has OBL actually been tried and convicted for any crime? or did he ever confess that he masterminded the destruction of the twin towers?
he has by word of mouth but not by evidence. But he has been responsible for many other attacks that included civilians on purpose. 911 is just viewed as his greatest accomplishment.
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Abz2000
05-16-2012, 09:14 PM
it cannot be viewed as his greatest accomplishment, as if you do some research, you'll find that he was never indicted for the events on 9/11,
they wanted him for the first wtc bombing (despite the fbi themselves having helped build the bomb) , and some other embassy attack and another submarine attack or something,
9/11 was not on that list, i regularly checked the fbi website and he was NEVER wanted for the attacks on 9/11
the media repetitions of old lies just made people believe it, but it is really classed as libel/slander, since he was never even indicted for 9/11

so even according to the CLAIMED us standards "innocent until proven guilty". he is innocent of the accusation.


fbi most wanted terrorist usama bin laden still not wanted for 911 by fbi snapshot april 22 2008?w350 -




they even once told us that it was saddam!




I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam.......
.....What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.
Usama bin laden
Interview published in newspaper Ummat Karachi, 28th September, 2001

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...to-Daily-Ummat


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BadOlPuttyTat
05-16-2012, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
it cannot be viewed as his greatest accomplishment, as if you do some research, you'll find that he was never indicted for the events on 9/11,
they wanted him for the first wtc bombing (despite the fbi themselves having helped build the bomb) , and some other embassy attack and another submarine attack or something,
9/11 was not on that list, i regularly checked the fbi website and he was NEVER wanted for the attacks on 9/11
the media repetitions of old lies just made people believe it, but it is really classed as libel/slander, since he was never even indicted for 9/11

so even according to the CLAIMED us standards, he is innocent of the accusation.
innocent until proven guilty.




they even once told us that it was saddam!



I am fully aware of 911 and i never said it was his greatest accomplishment i said thats what people believe. Although my standing on 911 is very neutral because both sides are spent on evidence although i dont think it fits with the "inside job theory". It still seems like a militant Islamist group to me.
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Abz2000
05-16-2012, 09:39 PM
ask urself how bush saw the first attack on tv, wehen the rest of america saw it next day, he was conveniently about to teach children (ask any pr firm the expected points) and was watching it live outside the classroom, then went in and is told about the second plane while reading my pet goat:
this was 3 months after
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-dXeGHlmD4

and this was 3 months BEFORE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpsFf2qc8DU

and is this even explainable?


and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BI...eature=related


you may also ask urself if this was a shoot down order or a stand down order - considering the fact that it was coming in and he was being informed at every point, yet it crashed into the pentagon, one of the most protected airspaces on the planet, after two planes had already hit ny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0
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IslamicRevival
05-16-2012, 10:14 PM
No one truly knows who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and i doubt we ever will. It could have been Osama Bin Laden but it most definitely could have been an inside job also.

From a personal viewpoint, i believe the powers that be in the United States planned and carried out the attack, there were just too many coincidences and things not adding up for me to believe it was the work of Al Qaeda. For example, on September 11 the US held a military drill which meant all its fighter jets were unavailable to intercept an attack at the time the two planes hit the towers, ..think what you want but to me it looks looks like it was a meticulously planned attack. From the way the building collapsed (controlled explosion) to the events that occurred after (IE Bombing Afghanistan) everything points to an inside job.

In regards to Osama Bin Laden, i think we should be open minded because no one knows the truth. I'm neither a supporter or opposer of his but one thing is for certain, i support and i am with the 'true' Mujahideen who are fighting for their freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Allah Azzawajal knows best
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Jalal~
05-17-2012, 01:53 AM
Who cares who did 9/11? this was a thing of the past, and even if we proved that it wasnt OBL, the conditions in Muslim countries won't change much. Obviously, non Muslims countries are not sending their armies to find OBL anymore, they have other incentives as well and Allah knows best to what those are. And Muslims are not fighting for OBL either, their fighting to protect themselves, their families, and for what is right.
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Abz2000
05-17-2012, 02:17 AM
9/11 is still used as a tool to gain public opinion and justification for us war crimes, just last week a kafir was using 9/11 to justify war crimes on this forum. So it is very important to dispel the pentagon created myth.

Secondly exposing the lies told about 9/11 has caused many people to reject the us governments propaganda and conditioning and puts them on guard as soon as they switch on the tv, finding out about the lies told regarding 9/11 has caused many non muslim people to defend islam when the media attacks or other bigots' hate speech comes and many have also come to Islam as a result of their curiosity as to why those who have taken control of the us and other governments are so bent on vilifying Islam.

9/11 is like an epicentre of the current world situation and until everyone knows that the government is lying about the events on that day - it is still very relevant in the information war.

Have we forgotten that they caused a huge controversy over the building of a mosque the September before last?
Even this month Obama has begun a kangaroo trial with new figures and masterminds just before he officially kicked off the 2012 elections, and it looks as if this trial will be playing a lot in the media alongside election coverage.

And Muslims are not fighting for OBL either, their fighting to protect themselves, their families, and for what is right.
You are correct that Muslims don't fight for obl, but when it becomes clear that he's a Muslim who was falsely accused, a Muslim from a wealthy family who could have had everything he wanted from among the worldly pleasures and sinful desires, a Muslim who left it all, put his own money and life in, who lost blood, honour and life in order to stand for the ummah, I feel it is a betrayal to just dismiss him as a fool just because of all the propaganda we hear about him, really reminds me of brother anwar's (ra) talk on the story of the bull. It is a betrayal of the highest degree when one has come face to face with the truth.



http://www.kalamullah.com/story-of-the-bull.html
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MustafaMc
05-17-2012, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ShadowsAndDust
His debate was was factual although the issue is he pushed things by killing innocent people making him an enemy.
The Afghan government was willing to hand OBL over if proof was provided that OBL was guilty of causing 9/11, but George Bush nor the US govenrment provided a single shred of evidence tying him to this event. As far as I can tell the so-called confession videos are far from convincing particularly considering how we know that video can be manipulated and dubbed over.
Both parties on this "war on terror" are both equal in bloodshed and both as stupid in purpose as of now.
There is no evidence to show that Muslims were responsible for 9/11, the anthrax attacks, or other acts of violence like London and Madrid.
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~ Sabr ~
05-17-2012, 06:29 AM
Osama Bin Laden is DEAD.

What is the point debating in a DEAD man?!
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MustafaMc
05-17-2012, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jalal~
Who cares who did 9/11?
... and why do you not?
format_quote Originally Posted by Haafizah
Osama Bin Laden is DEAD.

What is the point debating in a DEAD man?!
If OBL, KSM and 19 Muslim hijackers were solely responsible for the events of 9/11 and the collapse of 3 NYC skyscrappers, then you are guilty by association if you are also a Muslim. Muslims the world over have been demonized primarily because of this event and it was used as a justification for the invasion, destruction and occupation of two predominantly Muslim countries. If the official story is not true, then I am appalled at the lack of a public outcry by the Muslim community demanding an independent investigation as has been done at http://ae911truth.org/en/take-action.html. Instead we are content to sit by passively and accept lies as being true as hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims are killed with those lies being the false justification to do so.
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~ Sabr ~
05-17-2012, 11:27 AM
Ok man, I give up. Carry on debating. Your time waste, not mine.
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MustafaMc
05-17-2012, 11:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Haafizah
Ok man, I give up. Carry on debating. Your time waste, not mine.
Do you accept the official 9/11 story as being 100% true?
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~ Sabr ~
05-17-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't CARE.

If Osama bin Laden DID it, he will pay for his sins in the Aakhirah.

If Osama bin Laden DIDN'T do it, he will have reward in the Aakhirah as he can ask good deeds from people who slandered him.

That's it.

It should have NOTHING to do with us.
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