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Perseveranze
05-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

BBC articles are biased btw.

More than 190 people detained after fatal clashes between Muslims and Christians in Cairo are to face military trials, Egypt's army says.
The ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces called the move a "deterrent" against further violence.
Earlier the prime minister postponed a visit to the Gulf in order to hold an emergency cabinet meeting.
At least 10 people have died and 186 wounded during the overnight clashes in Cairo's Imbaba district.
It started after several hundred conservative Salafist Muslims gathered outside the Coptic Saint Mena Church.
They were reportedly protesting over allegations that a Christian woman was being held there against her will because she had married a Muslim man and wanted to convert to Islam.
Rival groups threw firebombs and stones, and gunfire was heard.
The church and one other, as well as some nearby homes, were set alight, and it took some hours for the emergency services and the military to bring the situation under control.
'Severe dangers' "The Supreme Military Council decided to send all those who were arrested in yesterday's events, that is 190 people, to the Supreme Military Court," the Egyptian army announced on its Facebook Page.


It added that it should act as a "deterrent to all those who think of toying with the potential of this nation".
The statement also said that a committee would be set up to assess the damage caused by the clashes and "restore all property and places of worship to how they were".
The army warned of "severe dangers facing Egypt during this phase".
Earlier, state media reported that the Prime Minister, Essam Sharaf, had postponed a visit to Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates and had called an emergency meeting of the cabinet to discuss the events.
This is not the first outbreak of communal violence since the fall of President Hosni Mubarak in February following weeks of popular protests.
In March, 13 people died in similar clashes in another neighbourhood. Last month, demonstrators in the southern city of Qena cut all transport links with Cairo for a week in protest over the appointment of a Christian governor.
The clashes - coming as the military government leads a faltering transition to democracy - are a worrying development for Egypt, the BBC's Jonathan Head in Cairo says.
Salafist groups - who have made similar claims about women being held against their will before - have become more assertive in the post-Mubarak era, he adds.
Coptic Christians account for about 10% of Egypt's population, and have long complained of state discrimination against them.
Now they are expressing fears for their safety if hardline Muslims do well in the election scheduled for September, our correspondent reports.
Rising toll Witnesses to Saturday's violence said it began with shouting between protesters, church guards and people living near the church.
A parish priest, Father Hermina, told the AFP news agency that the group had attempted to storm the church earlier in the day.
But one Muslim protester insisted that they had first been fired upon by the Copts.
One person in the area, a blogger called Mahmoud, told the BBC that people who saw the violence break out thought that the perpetrators looked like "regular thugs" rather than Salafists.
He had witnessed the burning of a second church in the same district, al-Azraa, and said that many local people were very upset at the burning of the churches and had spent the night helping the firefighters put the flames out.
Both the death and wounded toll kept rising on Sunday morning, with state media putting the latest number of dead at 10 and injured at 186.
If you look at this thread here - http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134306110

There's great truth in the claims and I would get angry and confront aswell. Though I don't think violence is Islamic answer to this, I can understand Muslims fighting back if they were first shot at as one of the people say.
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 01:45 PM
Wait a second...I saw this article and I think I'm missing something...oh yeah...the Analysis section.

For months conservative Muslim groups in Egypt have been protesting about the case of Camelia Shehata, the wife of the Coptic priest, who vanished last year. They say she converted to Islam and was being held against her will. But she has now appeared on a TV channel saying she is still a willing Christian.
Last night's attack by a Salafi crowd on the Saint Mena church in Imbaba was about a different woman, who they also allege is being forcibly prevented from converting to Islam.

My thought is this: is is possible that the conservative Salafist Muslims are using this as an excuse to persecute the Copts? I mean seriously, let's not forget what happened to the Copts on New Years before the whole Maburak thing. It seems like there's a history of violence against the Copts. See here too.

Egypt's Copts have often complained of harassment and discrimination, and argue that attacks on them go unpunished or result in light sentences.

Unless EVERYONE'S lying about this...this should be kept in context, I think.
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 01:54 PM
The fact is the matter is this:
Muslims and Christians hurting each other (let alone killing each other) is NOT loving our neighbors as ourselves...and it is NOT mirroring the Compassion and Mercy of our God. Thus it should be condemned by faithful members of BOTH Christian AND Muslim camps.

Where are those who seek PEACE and RECONCILIATION in all of this? Where are the PEACEMAKING people at?

Sheesh.

May Allah continue to have Compassion and Mercy upon us ALL.
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Perseveranze
05-08-2011, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Wait a second...I saw this article and I think I'm missing something...oh yeah...the Analysis section.

For months conservative Muslim groups in Egypt have been protesting about the case of Camelia Shehata, the wife of the Coptic priest, who vanished last year. They say she converted to Islam and was being held against her will. But she has now appeared on a TV channel saying she is still a willing Christian.
Last night's attack by a Salafi crowd on the Saint Mena church in Imbaba was about a different woman, who they also allege is being forcibly prevented from converting to Islam.

My thought is this: is is possible that the conservative Salafist Muslims are using this as an excuse to persecute the Copts? I mean seriously, let's not forget what happened to the Copts on New Years before the whole Maburak thing. It seems like there's a history of violence against the Copts. See here too.

Egypt's Copts have often complained of harassment and discrimination, and argue that attacks on them go unpunished or result in light sentences.

Unless EVERYONE'S lying about this...this should be kept in context, I think.
Did you not read this http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134306110

I think anyone Christian or Muslim would be pretty angry if something like this was to happen. You can't brush it of as an "excuse" to persecute the copts, such a claim has no basis or proof behind it. The Salafists in this case are angry at the force used by Copts on Muslims.
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 02:09 PM
More helpful info...

Camelia Shehata confirms her Christian faith. (YouTube video)

Salafists cancel Camelia Shehata protest
Salafists have called off a protest today for the release of Camelia Shehata, the wife of a Coptic priest who was allegedly detained by the Church after she converted to Islam
Ahram Online, Friday 6 May 2011
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 02:15 PM
Perserveranze:
I think anyone Christian or Muslim would be pretty angry if something like this was to happen. You can't brush it of as an "excuse" to persecute the copts, such a claim has no basis or proof behind it. The Salafists in this case are angry at the force used by Copts on Muslims.

1) ANYONE using ANY type of violence to keep someone for converting to another religion is wrong, Christian OR Muslim. I'm not even saying the events happened. Just if they DID, then whoever did it is wrong. I mean, it's not the case that Muslims have ever forced Christians to convert in such a way...right?

2) Surely, you are not saying that, regarding the new situation in Egypt, that the conservative Muslims are justified in FIREBOMBING churches in their anger? You are NOT saying that, right?

3) What do you believe is the best way forward for PEACE among the groups, in your honest opinion? I'm interested.
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Perseveranze
05-08-2011, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Perserveranze:
I think anyone Christian or Muslim would be pretty angry if something like this was to happen. You can't brush it of as an "excuse" to persecute the copts, such a claim has no basis or proof behind it. The Salafists in this case are angry at the force used by Copts on Muslims.

1) ANYONE using ANY type of violence to keep someone for converting to another religion is wrong, Christian OR Muslim. I'm not even saying the events happened. Just if they DID, then whoever did it is wrong. I mean, it's not the case that Muslims have ever forced Christians to convert in such a way...right?

2) Surely, you are not saying that, regarding the new situation in Egypt, that the conservative Muslims are justified in FIREBOMBING churches in their anger? You are NOT saying that, right?

3) What do you believe is the best way forward for PEACE among the groups, in your honest opinion? I'm interested.
In the west religious tolerance came a few decades ago, in the Middle-East it came 1400 years ago. They've lived in peace all this time and now all of a sudden, in recent times Copts are complaining about injustice, thinking their completly innocent.

There is definitly provocation from their side, not to say that violence from Muslims or anyone is right either. But no one here is innocent.

1. It's more Christians than Muslims with the forced conversion. I mean, you tell me the reason for the recent outbreaks of violence? Unless your delluded enough to think Christian Copts are completly innocent, then there's no point in talking with you is there.

2. I never said violence is justified, if I remember correctly, when the Prophet(pbuh) went to war with the Kuffar, he forbid the burning or destroying of buildings of Worship. But again, I don't believe someone randomly decided to burn a Church for the fun of it.

3. Maybe stop with the forced conversions in such a sensitive time in Egypt or stop doing anything that's so provoking. Soon it won't just be the Salafi's, it will be other so called "moderate" Muslims who get involved and by then the likely outcome in Politics isn't going to favour the Christians.

Copts are not the "victim" here, remember that. There will be a difference in what happened in the events in Egypt on a western Anti-Islam propoganda report than a Middle East one.
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 03:03 PM
Perserveranze:
There is definitly provocation from their side, not to say that violence from Muslims or anyone is right either. But no one here is innocent.


No one is saying that anyone is purely innocent here. It's obvious that, at best, the Copts are using violence, even if only in retaliation...which AIN'T cool. Since no one is innocent, then ALL need to repent for their respective sins against God and their fellow humans. Agreed?


*****************************

Perserveranze:
It's more Christians than Muslims with the forced conversion. I mean, you tell me the reason for the recent outbreaks of violence? Unless your delluded enough to think Christian Copts are completly innocent, then there's no point in talking with you is there.


1) I've already say that NO ONE in this situation is completely innocent...and that ALL need to repent here. If injustice has been done by the Copts, then they should be held accountable in LEGAL, NON-VIOLENT ways. Not by violence, killing, and all that.

2) I think that all of the actions of all parties need to be taken soberly and honestly. And wrong needs to be admitted wherEVER it occurs.

*****************************

Perserveranze:
I never said violence is justified, if I remember correctly, when the Prophet(pbuh) went to war with the Kuffar, he forbid the burning or destroying of buildings of Worship. But again, I don't believe someone randomly decided to burn a Church for the fun of it.


Can you say "It is never justifiable to decide to burn a Church, outside of it being an act of obvious, legitimate self-defense"? Can you say that? I'm actually being lenient with that last little bit...but let's see what you say. I'm sure that if the situation were reversed, no Muslim would want a bunch of Christians burning down mosques because of this kind of situation. Do unto others...yada yada...


*********************************

Perseveranze:
Maybe stop with the forced conversions in such a sensitive time in Egypt or stop doing anything that's so provoking.


Ok. That's from the Coptic Christian side. What can the MUSLIMS do to promote the peace along with the pursuit for justice? What can they do specifically?
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Perseveranze
05-08-2011, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Ok. That's from the Coptic Christian side. What can the MUSLIMS do to promote the peace along with the pursuit for justice? What can they do specifically?
Pray for another Salahudin.

Egypt lacks a proper uncorrupted Leader, Muslims are influenced by these small religious leader which don't promote Islam as it should be promoted. I can't blame or judge Muslims in Egypt as I know nothing about them, nor does Islam permiss you to judge others based on so and so.

Religious leaders need to condemn violence and promote tolerance and for the best of the country and proper pious and uncorrupted Muslim leader needs to take Leadership.
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 03:21 PM
Perseveranze:
There will be a difference in what happened in the events in Egypt on a western Anti-Islam propoganda report than a Middle East one.

Ok. Let's see. Both of these articles are from the Assyrian International News Agency.


Muslims Protest At Church in Cairo
Posted GMT 4-30-2011 1:5:48


Some quotes...

A difference of opinion emerged between the organizers of the protest about when to end the protest. Renowned Muslim Salafi leaders Dr. Yasser Borhamy, from Alexandria, sent a message to the protesters asking them to disperse, saying the reason behind the protest was to deliver a message and so that no sectarian strife should occur because of the Salafis, while others like Abu Yehia, who claims he was with Camelia when she converted to Islam, wanted to break into the Cathedral.

Dr. Naguib Gabriel, head of the Egyptian Union of human rights organization, told Voice of the Free Copts that although demonstrations are legal, the Salafi demonstrations aim at incitement to sectarian strife in Egypt. "They call for the release of Camilia Shehata, who said she was a Christian and will live and die as a Christian," he said (video of Camilia). "Also, the authority who can say if she converted to Islam is Al-Azhar and the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar confirmed two weeks ago that Camilia never set foot there. Do they want a confrontation with the Copts? Do they want bloodshed just because these people are making illegal demands?"

Egyptian Coptic Youth Protect Cathedral During Pope's Sermon
Posted GMT 5-7-2011 21:8:14


Some quotes...

Thousands of Salafists staged a march to the cathedral last Friday to demand the appearance of Camellia Shehata and Wafaa Constantine, both wives of clergy, whom they claim converted to Islam. The church has denied they converted to Islam (AINA 4-30-2011). The prosecutor requested of the appearance of Camellia to investigate the claims that she was allegedly kidnapped and detained by the Church. She is expected to appear before them in the very near future.

"Camelia said she was 100% Christian, is proud of her religion, has not converted to Islam and never went to AlAzhar for conversion," said Dr. Naguib Gobraeel, her attorney. "She confirmed that she had had a misunderstanding with her husband, Father Tedaos, and left their home and stayed a few days with some relations, until friends and relatives intervened and reconciled them." Dr. Naguib Gobraeel said she now lives a quiet and happy life with her husband and her two and half year old son Anton in Cairo.

Gobraeel said he advised Camellia to appear in the media to refute the claims of her conversion to Islam and that she is being held by the church, but she refused. He added that Camellia told him that her biggest wish is to return to the simple life, like any normal Egyptian woman, away from the media and the dispute between Copts and Muslims regarding her.

So, Perserveranze. Is this reporting merely anti-Muslim propaganda? I'm curious...
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Perserveranze:
I can't blame or judge Muslims in Egypt as I know nothing about them, nor does Islam permiss you to judge others based on so and so.

Do you take the same attitude with the Copts in Egypt? You know nothing about them either. You're not gonna judge THEM either...riiiiiiight? :shade:
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جوري
05-08-2011, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
Do you take the same attitude with the Copts in Egypt? You know nothing about them either. You're not gonna judge THEM either...riiiiiiight?
I am quite familiar with the Egyptian Copts, and it is easy to judge them from their actions. The amazing part is even the christian Palestinians that I know can't stand the Copts of Egypt from their lies and deception.
No country's constitution is based on the exception. Just like America won't see a Muslim president, Copts of Egypt will not take out amongst other things article 2 of the constitution. If you love em so much why not sponsor them for citizenship and take them in your country? Let them evangelize those atheists for you if they're that successful to blackmail all those who dare leave their cesspool.

BTW, and this is a true story, my grandfather was best friend with a Coptic priest in Egypt, one day he found him in a mosque in regular clothes praying and when he asked him what he was doing, he begged him not to rat on him because literally they'd have killed him. He had to sadly live a double life where he pretends to be a man of the church and mislead these poor saps that their religion is meaningful meanwhile he had converted to Islam on the side...

what a sad existence-- may Allah swt forgive him for his cowardice is certainly understandable!

all the best
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 03:55 PM
Just months ago...



Muslim and Christian shoulder-to-shoulder in Tahrir Square


It's so sad. God, have mercy upon us sinners. imsad
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 03:59 PM
Lily:
BTW, and this is a true story, my grandfather was best friend with a Coptic priest in Egypt, one day he found him in a mosque in regular clothes praying and when he asked him what he was doing, he begged him not to rat on him because literally they'd have killed him. He had to sadly live a double life where he pretends to be a man of the church and mislead these poor saps that their religion is meaningful meanwhile he had converted to Islam on the side...


I can tell you a true story about a little girl who was a secret Christian who went to mosque with her family while praying to Isa there. She didn't tell her family for fear of not only ostracism, but actual violence. Violence from her own family who were Muslim. Again, sad, but true story.

But I'm certainly not going to 1) call her a coward, 2) judge her for what she felt she had to do, and 3) say that all Muslim families are like the one she was in.

Just a thought provoker.
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جوري
05-08-2011, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
I can tell you a true story about a little girl who was a secret Christian who went to mosque with her family while praying to Isa there. She didn't tell her family for fear of not only ostracism, but actual violence. Violence from her own family who were Muslim. Again, sad, but true story. But I'm certainly not going to 1) call her a coward, 2) judge her for what she felt she had to do, and 3) say that all Muslim families are like the one she was in. Just a thought provoker.

It isn't a thought provoker because you just made it up! Christians enjoy lying to themselves and others around them and it is truly a thing to be pitied-- and a sin by the way but there is no sin after worshiping a man-- it is like having a cr. count of 2 and then jumping to 6, at 2 you've already a lost function of most of your kidney and in renal failure anything beyond that isn't any worst a failure..

your best bet is to approach people by PM and see if selling a mangod covertly works better than in such an open fashion as you only set yourself up for ridicule!

best,
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Lily:
It isn't a thought provoker because you just made it up!


Hold UP just a minute. Are you calling me a liar, Lily? Are you saying that this was NOT a true story I was just telling? Why the heck would I make that up???

Are you really calling me a liar right now, sister?

Now, look here, sister. That's just offensive. Straight up. I never doubted YOUR story. I took you at your word. I never even THOUGHT of calling you a liar about your story. You cannot grant me the same privilege? You know what, you often talk a lot of smack to me. But this one takes the cake. :hmm:

May Allah bless you richly today, sis. Mad peace and blessings.

May Allah shed mercy upon us all today!

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
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جوري
05-08-2011, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE=YieldedOne;1435892]Lily:
It isn't a thought provoker because you just made it up!

Hold UP just a minute. Are you calling me a liar, Lily? Are you saying that this was NOT a true story I was just telling? Why the heck would I make that up???

Are you really calling me a liar right now, sister?
Yup.. and I am not your sister!
Now, look here, sister. That's just offensive. Straight up. I never doubted YOUR story. I took you at your word. I never even THOUGHT of calling you a liar about your story. You cannot grant me the same privilege? You know what, you often talk a lot of smack to me. But this one takes the cake. :hmm:
That is because there are consequences to lying in Islam.. In christianity it seems god ate all your sins up for you so this amongst others isn't considered a sin!


best,
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YieldedOne
05-08-2011, 04:20 PM
Lily:
Yup.. and I am not your sister!

HA! ;D

So, you're not even my "sister in humanity"? Even with all the stuff that's said on IslamicBoard.com about that?

Heh. Well, GOD RICHLY BLESS YOU, ANYHOW!!

As you say..."All the best." You can disown me...but I shall never disown you. You are a fellow creation of God who is beloved by God and worthy of my respect as such. May God continue to shower both of us with his compassion and mercy.

--------------------------

Mohandas Ghandi quotes...

“Whenever you are confronted with an opponent, conquer him with love.”

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”

"Be the change you want to see in the world."
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جوري
05-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by YieldedOne
HA! So, you're not even my "sister in humanity"? Even with all the stuff that's said on IslamicBoard.com about that? Heh. Well, GOD RICHLY BLESS YOU, ANYHOW!! As you say..."All the best." You can disown me...but I shall never disown you. You are a fellow creation of God who is beloved by God and worthy of my respect as such.

Except I have chosen 'Sister In Islam' in my profile not sister in humanity!

best,
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