Some accounts in the Quran

[Saad17]

Assalam-O-Alaikum

I was looking around youtube and I accidentally came upon this watch?v=zlIOlYSYCZU.

one thing this guy says in the video is that Quran 5:32

"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

is copied from

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5

"We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, the voice of thy brother's blood crieth out' [this latter is a quote from the Bible, Genesis 4:10], and he says, it does not sayeth he hath blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural.' Thou was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual, it should be reckoned that he has slain the whole race. But to him who has preserved the life of a single individual, it is counted that he has preserved the whole race.

there are more arguments in the video but I was more concerned about this one. Though I don't really care because Allah here is just talking about what He said BACK IN TIME to the Children of Israel so it is quite possible that the scribe who was Jewish just wanted to add what Allah just revealed back in that time. So if anyone is wondering , this doesn't count as being copied .

I only posted this to see a comprehensive refute though I already found one article against Mishnah Sanhedrin on Islamic Awareness but it didn't exactly address Quran 5:32 .

Allah knows best.

[al yunan]

Walaikum Assalam brother,

That verse you quoted is a well known verse that religious Jews often recite.
Why does it surprise you that there might be common verses or admonitions in the Torah is not Ibrahim A.S and Musa A.S our prophets as well as theirs and is Allah S.W.T not Master and Lord of the Jews as well.
The Torah by the way precedes the Quran by centuries.
What if the Jews claim we copied them ?
The only thing you will pick up for sure from you tube is a migraine.
It's best to concentrate on Islam and let the others be.
I hope I understood you query.
Masalam

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Check these out - http://www.scribd.com/doc/2447000/Qu...From-The-Bible

http://invitation2learn.wordpress.co...worldly-gains/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/BBbible.html

When you read the above, you come to the most loigcal conclusion that it was quite impossible for teh Quran to be plagurised. If you find similar quotes in the Quran that are in other scriptures then it's just reflecting on what Allah(swt) said about revealing the Scriptures before Quran.

[Saad17]

Walaikum Assalam brother,

That verse you quoted is a well known verse that religious Jews often recite.

You mean Genesis 4:10 or Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5 (the commentary of Genesis 4:10 as I quoted) ?

Why does it surprise you that there might be common verses or admonitions in the Torah is not Ibrahim A.S and Musa A.S our prophets as well as theirs and is Allah S.W.T not Master and Lord of the Jews as well.

Yes, I guess that is a good response, what surprised me is that Quran's verse didn't resemble a Torah's verse but it resembled a commentary of the verse by a man though the argument made in the video is weak as the Christian scholar claims that if you read Surah 5:31 to 32 , the 32 verse has no connection with the previous verse (that whoever was copying was copying blindly and thus is exposed) BUT that is not true, Allah clearly says that He ordered no one to shed blood due to this event in the Qur'an (in 5:32, verse say "Because of that[Cain killing Abel], We decreed upon the Children of Israel...."], meaning that Qur'an is well-written, perfectly connected and is different in style compare to the previous scriptures.

The Torah by the way precedes the Quran by centuries.
What if the Jews claim we copied them ?

I know but it wouldn't be an issue if Quran beared resemblance to the Torah but the 5:32 is bearing resemblance to a word written by men [i.e the commentary of Genesis 4:10] , so that is where the problem is.

The only thing you will pick up for sure from you tube is a migraine.
It's best to concentrate on Islam and let the others be.

True, I was apparently deceived :exhausted by the video title [it said "Christian Scholar proves that Islam is the truth] .

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[Saad17]

When you read the above, you come to the most loigcal conclusion that it was quite impossible for teh Quran to be plagurised. If you find similar quotes in the Quran that are in other scriptures then it's just reflecting on what Allah(swt) said about revealing the Scriptures before Quran.

Thank you, I'll read them all.

[Ramadhan]

I know but it wouldn't be an issue if Quran beared resemblance to the Torah but the 5:32 is bearing resemblance to a word written by men [i.e the commentary of Genesis 4:10] , so that is where the problem is.

We dont know which ones were words of men and words of God in the previous scriptures as they all have been mixed.

[Saad17]

We dont know which ones were words of men and words of God in the previous scriptures as they all have been mixed.

Yes, I guess that is true , its like I said the argument of the Christian (which I identified as Jay Smith) is only valid if we claim that historical account in the Qur'an are original but Allah was only recalling the accounts so there would be accounts that predate Islam and resemble it.

Not sure what a Targum is (this is apparently the Jewish scripture the guy keep claiming to be as failed and unauthentic scripture and source for most of the Quran).

[siam]

We dont know which ones were words of men and words of God in the previous scriptures as they all have been mixed.

this is true and a good example is what the Quran says in 5:32 compared with what the Talmud says---there are 2 Talmuds, the Babylonian (Balvi) and the Yerushalmi.

When comparing Bablyonian Talmud sanhedrin 37a to Yerushalmi Talmud sanhedrin 23a, one of the Talmuds has changed the "soul" (Arabic=nafs, Hebrew=Nefesh) into meaning Isreal---that is, instead of the word meaning all human beings, it has been confined to only the Jews---implying that this is exclusive to the Jews.....its been a while back that I looked into this---so I don't remember if its the Babylonian or Yerushalmi that is different from the Quran. ---Anyway---the Quran corrects this and confirms that it is not exclusive to the Jews but that the correct interpretation is soul/nafs, as in, any human beings. (Universal)

[siam]

by the way---what is our (Muslim) position on the "documentary hypothesis" of the Pentatuech (5 books of Moses)? ....anyone know?

[Saad17]

this is true and a good example is what the Quran says in 5:32 compared with what the Talmud says---there are 2 Talmuds, the Babylonian (Balvi) and the Yerushalmi.

When comparing Bablyonian Talmud sanhedrin 37a to Yerushalmi Talmud sanhedrin 23a, one of the Talmuds has changed the "soul" (Arabic=nafs, Hebrew=Nefesh) into meaning Isreal---that is, instead of the word meaning all human beings, it has been confined to only the Jews---implying that this is exclusive to the Jews.....its been a while back that I looked into this---so I don't remember if its the Babylonian or Yerushalmi that is different from the Quran. ---Anyway---the Quran corrects this and confirms that it is not exclusive to the Jews but that the correct interpretation is soul/nafs, as in, any human beings. (Universal)

I see, thank you for responding.

by the way---what is our (Muslim) position on the "documentary hypothesis" of the Pentatuech (5 books of Moses)? ....anyone know?

I'm not sure about the "docoumentary hypothesis" but I heard that the Pentateuch can't be written by Moses since the book itself mentions Moses' death, either it was written by someone else [i.e with editing] or Moses predicted his own death. Of course I heard this from "Answering Christianity".

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

so, something in the Qur'an sounds like something in the Mishnah! well, that in itself presents a problem for?

not us! you see, Jewish scholars have a problem if the Jews of Madinah were Rabbinic, Talmudic Jews. IF THEY WERE, then what in the heck were they doing in Madinah awaiting "the Final Prophet?"

hmmm?

contemplate that!

I'm not sure about the "docoumentary hypothesis" but I heard that the Pentateuch can't be written by Moses since the book itself mentions Moses' death, either it was written by someone else [i.e with editing] or Moses predicted his own death. Of course I heard this from "Answering Christianity".

that's not why. a Prophet could have written a future event. doublets and in some cases triplets about the same stories, different uses of Names for God, stories that suit Preists in Jerusalem vrs those that favor the Mu****e Priests of Bethel give rise to a belief that whe the tribes unified around the time of Saul and David that it was then that different "books" [my word] were combined to include the traditions of all of the tribes. later, in order to bolster the role of the Aaronic Priesthood in Jerusalem [post 1st Temple], many additions dealing in Temple ritual were added [you know, the real boring stuff]. later around the time of King Josiah, ideas of reform, Dueteronomy, were "discovered" in the Temple.

for an utterly fascinating read on this topic, Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible?

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Ri...5547980&sr=1-1

wa Salaam

[siam]

Thanks YusufNoor.


here is some more interesting stuff....though it is off topic........

"The mists of legend and folklore veil the time when Jews first set foot on the Arabian Peninsula. According to rabbinic sources, the first links to Arabia go back to the time of Joshua, when a contingent of Israelites were sent to battle the treacherous Amalekites and ended up settling in Yathrib (Medina). Subsequently, a group of King Saul's warriors, repudiated for their disobedience in sparing the young son of the Amalekite king, settled in northern Arabia in the vicinity of Yathrib. A more formal Israelite colony is said to have settled in the same region during the reign of King David. Similarly, the legendary encounter between the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon attests to the antiquity of the stories relating to Israelite-Arabian contacts. Indeed, the queen's visit to Jerusalem is supposed to have culminated in the conversion to Judaism of many of her Sabean subjects. In addition, it is believed that tinder King Solomon, seafaring Israelites who navigated the Red Sea on their way to the "land of gold" (Ophir) established trading stations along the coast, and in the more important towns of southern Arabia. In time, these trading stations became colonies.
During the prophet Jeremiah's time (6th century BCE), a large migration of Jews is said to have gone to southern Arabia, and tradition has it that when, years later; the Hebrew priest and scribe Ezra (5th century BCE) commanded the descendants to return to Jerusalem, they refused; whereupon, Ezra pronounced an everlasting ban upon them. As a result of this legend, which is devoid of historicity, no Jew of Yemen gives the name of Ezra to a child.
The destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar (586 BCE) led many Judeans, it is believed, to seek safety in the Arabian Peninsula. The Jews of San'a in Yemen have a legend that their forefathers settled there 42 years before the destruction of the First Temple. A far more extensive migration of Jews to Arabia, and one that takes us out of the realm of legend and into history, followed the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE) by the Roman legions of Titus.
After the Romans had laid waste to Jerusalem, a number of Jews managed to escape the city and fled in part to Egypt and northern Arabia. That Jews were present during this period in northern Arabia is proved by the existence of tombstones on ancient sites halfway between Medina and Eretz Israel. These grave markers date to years before and after the destruction of the Second Temple. From these fugitives from Roman persecution sprang three important tribes: the Banu Karnuka; the Banu Nadir; and the Banu Kuraisa. These tribes had their center in Yathrib. To the north of Yathrib was situated the oasis and district of Khaibar, which was inhabited by a large Jewish colony.
Legend has it that the Jews of Khaibar were descendants of the Biblical Rechabites, who, according to the command of their progenitor, the redoubtable Jonadab, abstained from drinking wine and, opposed to the materialism of city life, dwelt only in tents. Their asceticism was supposedly commended by the prophet Jeremiah. Barely a day's journey from Khaibar, many smaller Jewish communities stretched in a long line by the side of a fruitful wadi -- the so-called Valley of Villages. To protect themselves against marauding Bedouins, the Jews built a line of fortresses (castles) on sites overlooking their communities. Although the region they … "


Joseph Adler from an article about the Jewish Kingdom of Himyar (Yemen).