Saudi woman seeks to put women in the driving seat

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

A Saudi woman has taken to the road in a direct challenge to the country's ban on female drivers.

Share your views.

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

I think it is safer for Saudi women to drive by themselves. To allow a stranger to drive for them is a bit unusual for country like Saudi Arabia, where separation between men and women are strictly observed.

[Haya emaan]

y is it not allowed for a women to drive in Saudi Arabia?

[Kabeer]

Yes they should be allowed to drive. It's a pointless rule.

Peace

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[GuestFellow]

y is it not allowed for a women to drive in Saudi Arabia?

Salaam,

I'm not sure. Some worry about the safety of women if the car brakes down and is stranded.

[Pygoscelis]

I'm happy to see this. If a woman wants to drive, let her drive. If she wants to stay home or have a man (or another woman) drive her, let her do that. She should have the choice.

My only concern is of people driving while wearing burkas. Does that happen? And if it does, are you able to see properly and operate the vehicle safely? Is peripheral vision blocked? Are shoulder checks much more difficult? I'd guess that the full body covering with just eye slits would be a major hazard, but a more moderate veil or headscarf may have no or little impact.

This came to my mind because I recently had a file in my office where a client told me that the at fault party in his car accident was a Muslima wearing a veil. I have not yet investigated or found out what kind of veil or how distracting it may have been or how pivotal or irrelevant it was to causing the accident.

[Kabeer]

Salaam,

I'm not sure. Some worry about the safety of women if the car brakes down and is stranded.

Same could be said of young guys on their own in certain places :o

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

I'm happy to see this. If a woman wants to drive, let her drive. If she wants to stay home or have a man (or another woman) drive her, let her do that. She should have the choice.

My only concern is of people driving while wearing burkas. Does that happen? And if it does, are you able to see properly and operate the vehicle safely? Is peripheral vision blocked? Are shoulder checks much more difficult? I'd guess that the full body covering with just eye slits would be a major hazard, but a more moderate veil or headscarf may have no or little impact.

This came to my mind because I recently had a file in my office where a client told me that the at fault party in his car accident was a Muslima wearing a veil. I have not yet investigated or found out what kind of veil or how distracting it may have been or how pivotal or irrelevant it was to causing the accident.

Greetings of peace to you..

Nope it is not difficult to see..

Whether one is observing the Niqaab she is permitted to not cover her eyes so that she may see her way. And logically everyone who drives sees with their eyes, so therefore it makes no distinction whether you wear the full veil or not..as one sees the way with their eyes..

I hope someone else can also clarify this for you also..

.. peace ..

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):


Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 19:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The best women are the riders of the camels and the righteous among the women of Quraish. They are the kindest women to their children in their childhood and the more careful women of the property of their husbands."

Jazakumullahu Khair

[GuestFellow]

Same could be said of young guys on their own in certain places :o

Salaam,

I know, but that it what some Saudi scholars have argued. I disagree with them.

[Amanda]

Good for her... it is such a pointless rule

[Perseveranze]

Saudi's watched this video

[LauraS]

Good for her! These men "worry" too much about what or what is not safe for a woman, why can't they decide for themselves. We're not children needing to be looked after and supervised in all areas of life apart from tidying up the house!

Perserverance- the petrol pump one's my fave!

This is funny too!

http://youtu.be/0nqLBOKsljU

[GuestFellow]

Saudi woman detained for driving

^ UPDATE!

[Rhubarb Tart]

%$#! Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world to ban women from driving. Oh dear :(

They are very brave women. :)
I think it would be another five years to do u-turn on the ban.

[Impey]

Why would anyone ban female drivers? females seem to do everything else doctors, pilots, cranes drivers, teachers, professors, .. The women I know are more brainy than me - I don't get it?

[Ramadhan]

Why would anyone ban female drivers? females seem to do everything else doctors, pilots, cranes drivers, teachers, professors, .. The women I know are more brainy than me - I don't get it?

They may be brainy, but they are the worst drivers
:nervous:

[al yunan]

I'd guess that the full body covering with just eye slits would be a major hazard,

Salam P,

It does not seem to bother Batman does it ?

Masalam

[al yunan]

They may be brainy, but they are the worst drivers

Assalamu Alaikum brother R,

Oh Oh! :omg: That's a major big time :embarrass faux pas !

Masalam

:shade: PS: can always change name ;D

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

They may be brainy, but they are the worst drivers
:nervous:

Assalaamu Alaaykum

:raging: they are not! :raging:

I heard that women are safe drivers :-\

[Ansariyah]

Its about time!

[Ramadhan]

Assalaamu Alaaykum they are not! I heard that women are safe drivers You are lucky you are an admin akhee! I wish there was a sister who was a red mod!

:wa:

Please don't take it so seriously sister, I was just joking :)

Salam brother R, Oh Oh! That's a major big time faux pas ! Masalam

:sl:
I knew I would get the reaction once I pressed the "post quick reply" button ;D

PS: can always change name

I just did. I am assuming a new identity now, I am scared of getting the brunt of the anger of the sisters here. Should I go for full plastic surgery too?
:nervous:

[Beardo]

As long as they're not Asian women, why not? Honestly, that rule should be placed against Asian American women drivers. But as far as Arab women are concerned, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I've never had a problem with them. They tend to get their licenses late anyway.

:) My two taka.

[Mr.President]

Saudi King has already stated that this isn't a religious issue but its a cultural issue

and did any saudi mutawwa release any fatwa saying women who drives against the law are sinful ?

[Getoffmyback]

I've seen a burka woman driving a 2010 M5 Here where i live :s anyways i read a lebanese article about accidents by women drivers .there was a big percentage of accidents by women driving big 4 wheelers cos women feel safe in them ,they think it's big vehicle So it must be safer. So imagine inexperienced saudi women driving those big gmc's , you know cos big 4 wheelers are the prime choice in ksa . But in saudi arabia it's not a matter of safety cos they can afford building huge driving schools for women unlike here in lebanon it's a chaos we don't have driving schools. So i wonder Why they don't allow them!

And about that burka woman driving M5 the something like 110 thousand dollars car, seriously not cool where is her modesty! That's maybe another reason Why saudis bans women from driving cos it's not cool to see a burka woman driving expensive cars . The Next day you will see millions of sarcastic pictures on the net of rich saudi women driving something like a 2 million dollars bugati. That would be something really contradictive with islamic modesty!

[al yunan]

Salam akhi,

That's a very unique perspective and after some thought I must agree whether male or female not cool in deed.

masalam

[Rhubarb Tart]

Wow I didnt know driving an expensive car is like showing off a leg...lmao who knew?

Where the sense of so called modesty with men who drive expensive cars? Or does that rule only apply to women. Yep probably it does.

It is a sexist law pure and simple.

[tw009]

How do they allow a male driver to sit in the same car with a woman but women are not allowed to be completely alone and drive the car themselves ?

[GuestFellow]

^ Salaam,

That is what I'm thinking.

[al yunan]

How do they allow a male driver to sit in the same car with a woman but women are not allowed to be completely alone and drive the car themselves ?

:cry::cry: EUNUCHS ?

[GuestFellow]

Saudi Arabia pressed to free woman driver

^ UPDATE

I disagree with some parts of the article.

[sabr*]

I've seen a burka woman driving a 2010 M5 Here where i live :s anyways i read a lebanese article about accidents by women drivers .there was a big percentage of accidents by women driving big 4 wheelers cos women feel safe in them ,they think it's big vehicle So it must be safer. So imagine inexperienced saudi women driving those big gmc's , you know cos big 4 wheelers are the prime choice in ksa . But in saudi arabia it's not a matter of safety cos they can afford building huge driving schools for women unlike here in lebanon it's a chaos we don't have driving schools. So i wonder Why they don't allow them!

And about that burka woman driving M5 the something like 110 thousand dollars car, seriously not cool where is her modesty! That's maybe another reason Why saudis bans women from driving cos it's not cool to see a burka woman driving expensive cars . The Next day you will see millions of sarcastic pictures on the net of rich saudi women driving something like a 2 million dollars bugati. That would be something really contradictive with islamic modesty!

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Getoffmyback:

Are you confusing modesty (The quality or state of being unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities) with
humbleness (not arrogant or prideful)? If a person has the means and can afford whatever luxury that isn't haram how to do we make it haram?

I don't agree with the wealth squandering, abuse, misuse of many leaders, Kings, Monarchs and despots of so-called Muslim countries but if a regular wealthy Muslim who earned their wealth halal can purchase anything halal they desire.

Why do we demonize practicing Muslims because our condition is less desired.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 24, Number 490:

Narrated Ibn Masud:

I heard the Prophet saying, "There is no envy except in two: a person whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and a person whom Allah has given wisdom (i.e. religious knowledge) and he gives his decisions accordingly and teaches it to the others."

[Karl]

I think the Saudis should go back to horses, donkeys and camels, cars are wicked decadent Western contraptions. Shut down oil and go back to date growing and clean living. Imagine the tourist potential, come to a country NOT seduced by the temptations of Satan.

[Maryan0]

Saudi Arabian women demanding right to drive are threatened with beatings, arrested
By Elizabeth Flock

Manal al-Sharif in her driving video (Screengrab from youtube) Manal al-Sharif, a woman arrested for organizing an online campaign to encourage Saudi women to drive on June 17, was supposed to be released by police today.

She won’t be.

Instead, Sharif will remain in custody for 10 more days, despite allegedly confessing and repenting for recording a video on YouTube that showed her driving.

Women are unofficially banned from driving in Saudi Arabia.

A Saudi blogger in Riyadh, Eman Al Nafjan, says the report is likely wrong. Sharif did not repent. “Manal’s support campaign and personal friends have denied all this and insist that Manal remains strong,” Nafjan wrote on her blog, Saudi Woman.

Meanwhile, Saudi men have launched a campaign to beat women who drive their cars on June 17.

The “The Iqal Campaign: June 17 for preventing women from driving” Facebook page has attracted more than 6,000 supporters and advocates that men hit women with the cord (Iqal) used to hold on a traditional headress. Some are even proposing they distribute boxes of Iqals for men to use that day.

Author Saudi Abdo Khal, writing in Okaz, said he did not know “whether to laugh or cry” over the proposed Iqal campaign, according to the Agence France-Presse.

But blogger Nafjan is less surprised by the response. “Regarding the whipping, that was completely expected, that happened even 20 years ago,” she said over the phone from Riyadh.

But Nafjan says some things are different now.

“It used to be that we would protest, and there was just one platform. The religious establishment and newspapers would only put out the official story, which would only be against the woman. The difference now is other platforms can be used,”she said.

Sharif’s campaign has used Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube to spread the word.

The Lede blog has reported that much of Sharif’s online campaign has been deleted, including the YouTube video of Sharif driving, a second clip in which she talked about the June 17 protest, and a Facebook page she set up called “Teach Me How to Drive So I Can Protect Myself.” Even the Twitter account Sharif used to spread news of the protest movement was copied and altered to make it seem as if she had canceled the campaign.

But that hasn’t ended the women’s protests. A new “Teach Me How to Drive So I Can Protect Myself” Facebook page is up. A page called “We are all Manal al-Sharif: a call for solidarity with Saudi women's rights,” has gathered 19,000 followers. Sharif’s driving video is on YouTube again, along with her original message about the protest.

“[The government] needs to understand that censorship does not work anymore,” says Saudi blogger Ahmed Al Omran, who writes on his blog Saudi Jeans from New York, where he is a graduate student at Columbia Journalism School. “By the time they removed one version of the video, dozen copies of the same video appeared.”

Watch Sharif’s driving video:


Sharif is not the first to demand that women be allowed to drive. In November 1990, more than 40 women drove their cars in the middle of Riyadh, which resulted in severe condemnation by the official religious establishment and a statement by the interior ministry that women were not allowed to drive.

“Legally speaking, there is no law banning women's driving,” says Omran. “The [Interior Ministry statement is] still a statement, never a law.”

In 2008, an activist recorded a similar video of herself behind the wheel on YouTube. But Nafjan says the government ignored her, in part because she was in the desert, not a city, and in part because she was an activist known for stirring up trouble.

“Manal is not an outsider, she is not known for doing stunts. She is a respected woman and role model. So the government is paying attention,” says Nafjan.

“Everybody wants to take a stand against it. There are thousands of women [in Saudi Arabia] who have international licenses, but few drive. We are afraid of the consequences. Manal was not. She is very brave.”

By Elizabeth Flock | 10:16 AM ET, 05/26/2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...BzBH_blog.html


If this is real....:anger:

[Mr.President]

Now this is getting global coverage BTW Iqal campaign is really a bad idea
saudis are concerned that this is not just manals sherifs idea but its some kind of conspiracy againts saudi thats y this issue is getting worse and saudi
ministry of interior is handling in such a way <-- I read this in "Eman Al Nafjans" blog

may be saudi authorities are concerned on the on going secret dating may be they think that this will increase secret dating and parties bt may be
any way banning women from driving and saying women who drove are sinful is not gud

[سيف الله]

Salaam

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed in this thread, this law needs to be repealed. Obviously they need to do it according to their own laws and customs but I hope it happens soon.

[Mr.President]

Any saudi people on forum did women tried to approach the king or queen and solve this problem in a peaceful way ? like discussion ?

[CosmicPathos]

If majority of Saudis (men and women) want to keep the ban, good for them!

[Trumble]

If majority of Saudis (men and women) want to keep the ban, good for them!

It's not good for those who don't want to keep it. In the case of the women, anyway, I would venture to suggest that group includes the vast majority of those who would choose to drive if there were no ban.

Sometimes democracy becomes, as J S Mill put it, the tyranny of the majority.

[ardianto]

Why women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia ?

I tried to find the answer, and I found, it's based on Saudi Ulama fatawa. Then I "reviewed' those fatawa, and I found, the daleel that used in those fatawa are daleel about women who do travel without their mahram. Actually those daleel can't be used to ban women to drive cars.

So, I think it's better if Saudi women offer a "win-win solution", ask Saudi Ulama to change their fatwa into "Women are allowed to drive as long as their mahram is/are in the car"

[LauraS]

^^As I've already said why ot for once let women decide what's dangerous for them? If they want to travel alone, let them! It's their life and they're not two year olds who can't handle being out alone. >_<

[ardianto]

^^As I've already said why ot for once let women decide what's dangerous for them? If they want to travel alone, let them! It's their life and they're not two year olds who can't handle being out alone. >_<

People in my place say "different field, different grasshopper, different pond, different fish". It's mean in different place, the culture is also different. Russian culture is different than Iranian culture. Japanese culture is different than Kenyan culture. Saudis have their own culture that different than other people cultures.

Laura, it's better if you learn about Saudi's culture first, if you want to 'review' this case. :)

[Rhubarb Tart]

People in my place say "different field, different grasshopper, different pond, different fish". It's mean in different place, the culture is also different. Russian culture is different than Iranian culture. Japanese culture is different than Kenyan culture. Saudis have their own culture that different than other people cultures.

Laura, it's better if you learn about Saudi's culture first, if you want to 'review' this case. :)

I don’t care what kind of culture it is! mahram can’t always be with the women when she is going to work. They are sexist! And I am not scared to say that! You know we keep saying Islam is all for women rights but here are people supporting a ban that has no basis in Islam!

It always, always the women that has to suffer! Do you know the women there have to have permission to education and work by their father , husband or son? Is that not enough? Or it is acceptable to take away the little bit of independence they have?

Last time we discussed this matter. Mad scientist thought allowing women to drive will give them “feminist” ideas. The idea is don’t give them an itch or they would run a mile.

Saudi women might as well wear nappies. Then they would know where they really stand!

[al yunan]

So, I think it's better if Saudi women offer a "win-win solution", ask Saudi Ulama to change their fatwa into "Women are allowed to drive as long as their mahram is/are in the car"

Assalamu alaikum brother ardianto,

Best answer yet, you should forward it to the Saudi Embassy !
Concidering a large section of the male population are to old to drive your suggestion is excelent.

Masalam

[Rhubarb Tart]

^ The best suggestion is to let them drive with or without Mahram.

[GuestFellow]

People in my place say "different field, different grasshopper, different pond, different fish". It's mean in different place, the culture is also different. Russian culture is different than Iranian culture. Japanese culture is different than Kenyan culture. Saudis have their own culture that different than other people cultures.

Laura, it's better if you learn about Saudi's culture first, if you want to 'review' this case. :)

Salaam,

I think culture is the main problem here. There is no reason why Saudi women should not be allowed to drive. The Saudi scholars have weak arguments, whether their rulings are based on Islam or culture or a combination of both.

I do think change must come from within Saudi Arabia rather than pressure from human rights groups and foreign countries.

[al yunan]

The best suggestion is to let them drive with or without Mahram.

Which other parts of Shariah do you find bothers you ?

[Rhubarb Tart]

Which other parts of Shariah do you find bothers you ?

What? Last time I checked women don’t need mahram to travel in their city or town?
Or do you consider women as babies....
It speaks volumes that you support this ban!
I think people should leave alone what we are allowed to do. That isn’t exactly going against Islam.
Or do we need mahram to travel to the toilet!

[al yunan]

Or do we need mahram to travel to the toilet!

It is haram to be sarcastic ! 49/11

Or as the English say "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"

[Rhubarb Tart]

It is haram to be sarcastic ! 49/11

Or as the English say "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"

wont you being sarcastic by asking such questions?

[al yunan]

wont you being sarcastic by asking such questions?

No, never !
It is a legitimate question as there are many sects which oppose various parts of Islam such as Ahadith and Mathab plus Modernists and the list goes on and on. You then have the Shi'a who only follow Shariah of a living person and Sufi sects who only recognize their Shaikh's Shariah e.t.c. I think I've made my point and with Haya !

[Rhubarb Tart]

No, never !
It is a legitimate question as there are many sects which oppose various parts of Islam such as Ahadith and Mathab plus Modernists and the list goes on and on. You then have the Shi'a who only follow Shariah of a living person and Sufi sects who only recognize their Shaikh's Shariah e.t.c. I think I've made my point and with Haya !

And what has that got to do with me?
I told you there nothing forbidden women to ‘travel’ in their own city or town. So if I want to travel around in London city alone, I am not going against Allah (swt).

Again why ask that question?

[Rhubarb Tart]

And it is interesting how like 95% of humans, you call medicine profession "noble" just because it helps you when you need them but others are not noble (janitor for example). Typical stereotypical mentality. Well if majority is right, majority in Saudi should be heard too even if it crumbles your heart!

I said "a" and that mean I do consider other profession as noble! And how do you know majority of Saudi want a ban on women driving! Those who dont get arrested and are told to shut up! Love it how all of the sudden you believe in democracy.

[GuestFellow]

Which other parts of Shariah do you find bothers you ?

Salaam,

She was saying that a women should be allowed to drive a car without a mahram. Would you consider this ruling to be in accordance with the Sharia?

[GuestFellow]

And how do you know majority of Saudi want a ban on women driving!

Salaam,

You raised an interesting point. I wonder how many Saudi people do not want women to drive.

[al yunan]

She was saying that a women should be allowed to drive a car without a mahram. Would you consider this ruling to be in accordance with the Sharia?

Walaikum assalam,

What I consider or think is not the issue here as we are talking about Saudi Arabia and their Idea of Shariah.
To simply criticise with out a solution is Fitnah, I don't particularly care for their version of Islam but I must say it's a lot better than many goofy other ideas.
Brother ardianto had a good idea within the boundaries of what the Saudis believe which I supported.
To criticise other Mathabs is not within my scope of knowledge as I'm not an Alim and especially not proficient as to controversial interpretations like Abdul Wahhab's.
In the four Mathab that I respect and adhere to there are limits as to a wife's freedom of movement and a certain Adab.
Some people find these restrictions uncomfortable thus my question to her plus for the other reasons stated.
I do not find criticism of the Sunnah a light matter and find the ideas of Modernists blasphemous.
Finally even if people disagree their is no need to ignore basic Adab as some might interpret the lack of it as an unvoiced Takfir.
I think you would agree that a lack of Knowledge can be understood and accepted but a lack of Haya ?

Masalam

[Rhubarb Tart]

The limit to your wife “movement” is 48 miles (3days) ! Driving a car around your city or town is NOT 48 miles!
Like I said there is nothing in Islam banning women from travelling alone in her own city or town. So I can criticise them as much as I want!

[ardianto]

I don’t care what kind of culture it is! mahram can’t always be with the women when she is going to work. They are sexist! And I am not scared to say that! You know we keep saying Islam is all for women rights but here are people supporting a ban that has no basis in Islam!

It always, always the women that has to suffer! Do you know the women there have to have permission to education and work by their father , husband or son? Is that not enough? Or it is acceptable to take away the little bit of independence they have?

Last time we discussed this matter. Mad scientist thought allowing women to drive will give them “feminist” ideas. The idea is don’t give them an itch or they would run a mile.

Saudi women might as well wear nappies. Then they would know where they really stand!

Cool down, sister, cool down. :)

I know you have read my thread "Discuss about Indonesia here....." because you wrote few posts there, and you know how I am.

I do not support that prohibition to drive, and i was so curious, why Saudi ban women to drive ?. Then I tried to find the answer. I 'reviewed' fatawa that became basis for that prohibition. Also I observed Saudi culture. Finally, I arrived in a conclusion : Saudi Ulama will never allow women to traveling alone with car. They have many daleel for support it. But maybe, Saudi Ulama can allow women to drive car if their mahram is/are in the car, because Saudi Ulama don't have any daleel for prohibit it.

If I made an idea about change that fatwa into "Women are allowed to drive as long as their mahram is/are in the car", it's because I want to help Saudi women. Okay, if Saudi Ulama accept this idea, Saudi women still not allowed to traveling alone with car, but at least, Saudi women are allowed to control the cars as drivers.

Sister, sometime get a half is better than get nothing.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Cool down, sister, cool down. :)

I know you have read my thread "Discuss about Indonesia here....." because you wrote few posts there, and you know how I am.

I do not support that prohibition to drive, and i was so curious, why Saudi ban women to drive ?. Then I tried to find the answer. I 'reviewed' fatawa that became basis for that prohibition. Also I observed Saudi culture. Finally, I arrived in a conclusion : Saudi Ulama will never allow women to traveling alone with car. They have many daleel for support it. But maybe, Saudi Ulama can allow women to drive car if their mahram is/are in the car, because Saudi Ulama don't have any daleel for prohibit it.

If I made an idea about change that fatwa into "Women are allowed to drive as long as their mahram is/are in the car", it's because I want to help Saudi women. Okay, if Saudi Ulama accept this idea, Saudi women still not allowed to traveling alone with car, but at least, Saudi women are allowed to control the cars as drivers.

Sister, sometime get a half is better than get nothing.

thanks for your that. okay.

[ardianto]

Assalamu alaikum brother ardianto,

Best answer yet, you should forward it to the Saudi Embassy !
Concidering a large section of the male population are to old to drive your suggestion is excelent.

Masalam

Wa' alaikum salam, brother Al Yunan.

I will not forward that suggestion to Saudi Embassy. But I hope some people will write this suggestion in their books which 'followers of Saudi Ulama' can read.

Saudi Ulama are known as scholars who have high knowledge. Unfortunately, Saudi Ulama are also known as Ulama who never open their 'door of Ijtihad' for 'other Muslims'. But they always listen to the voices of their followers.

[LauraS]

I've been looking up why they don't allow women to drive and they just say it's in case they are in danger? How does it put them in danger though? Are there any other reasons for it? Because if the Prophet (PBUH- hope you don't mind me saying it, but I feel it's respectful) made the comment that women make the best camel drivers then how can it be wrong for women to drive cars? :p Even then women were considered to be better drivers...

Mad scientist do you not agree with women driving full stop then?

[GuestFellow]

I've been looking up why they don't allow women to drive and they just say it's in case they are in danger? How does it put them in danger though?

I just find it ironic that Saudi women are allowed to drive an aeroplane but not a car... o_O

[smile]

yes women should drive

good up to that woman taking a stand

btw all ur pics of cake are making my mouth water ^^^^

[Mr.President]

I just spoke with 1f my uncle who is saudi for about 20 years he said that the saudis are concerned about culture they fear that if they allow women, it won't stop with going to the local grocery store or hospital saudis fear ladies will be all over the city 4 shopping, coffee....... etc. no offense this is just an opinion of a persons who lives in saudi

btw in villages they drive a lot of vehicles I mean he said beduine ladies (actually what this word mean ? beduine ! ) no restriction in villages

brother adrinos has a point they can drive while marams are with them

[Neelofar]

Those who wanna drive should be allowed to drive, they'll never be able to feel the thrill in revving an engine! No fair =(

[GuestFellow]

brother adrinos has a point they can drive while marams are with them

Salaam,

I suppose that is a short-term solution, but I'm certain some Saudi women will demand further rights.

[SAKER]

Idont agree..... that has no sense in the same time they accept stranger driver in their cars to drive girls women to th market its quite

ironic .A basic rule of Fikh say that things are halal in general and when you want to ban things or not allowed it...any way a FATWA

that Aoulma can made must be justified by interests of people

Let ´see an example : your child become ill and you have an emergency ???? you ave a car in the garage ??????

so.... you wont drive ?

Excuse me but it s made a bad image about Isam soooooooo bad

Women in time of our prophet Mohamad have more rights than women in Saudi Arabia

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

I'm going to keep this short and to the point.

I didn't think this thread would bring much good except for opening the door to argumentation and debate.

1) The Saudi bad on women driving cars was issued by the great shaykh, Abdullah ibn Baaz (rahimullah). But before anyone wants to criticize a Muslim who has passed away, a great scholar at that, I urge you not to speak ill of the dead as it is forbidden in Islam.

2) We all agree that it makes no sense to ban women from driving and then appoint non-mahram chauffeurs to drive them around, this is is not from a religious stand point but from a cultural one.

3) Perhaps some this religious fatwa has mixed with some of the Saudi culture. We should go back to the root of this fatwa and understand the reason why it has been implemented by the Saudi government.

3) Whatever the issue, the winner of this debate is going to achieve nothing.

Below is the fatwa of Sh Ibn Baz (rahimullah).

Shaykh ‘Abdul‘Azeez ibn Baaz (rahimullah) said:

People have spoken a great deal in the al-Jazeerah newspaper about the issue of women driving cars. It is well known that it leads to evil consequences which are well known to those who promote it, such as being alone with a non-mahram woman, unveiling, reckless mixing with men, and committing haram actions because of which these things were forbidden. Islam forbids the things that lead to haram and regards them as being haram too.

Allah commanded the wives of the Prophet and the believing women to stay in their houses, to observe hijab and to avoid showing their adornments to non-mahrams because of the permissiveness that all these things lead to, which spells doom for society. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification”

[al-Ahzaab 33:33]

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”

[al-Noor 24:31]

And the Prophet (:saws1:) said: “No man is alone with a (non-mahram) woman but the Shaytan is the third one present.”

Islam forbids all the things that may lead to immorality or accusations of immoral conduct made against chaste women, who never even think of anything touching their chastity, and it has stipulated a punishment for that which is one of the most severe of punishments, in order to protect society from the spread of the causes of immorality.

Women driving is one of the means that lead to that, and this is something obvious, but ignorance of the rulings of sharee’ah and the negative consequences of carelessness with regard to the things that lead to evil – as well as diseases of the heart that prevail at present – and love of permissiveness and enjoying looking at non-mahram women all lead to indulging in this and similar things, with no knowledge and paying no attention to the dangers that it leads to. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad): (But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawaahish (great evil sins and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allaah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allaah of which you have no knowledge”

[al-A’raaf 7:33]

“and follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy”

[al-Baqarah 2:168]

And the Prophet (:saws1:) said: “I am not leaving behind me any fitnah more harmful to men than women.”

It was narrated that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan (r) said: “The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah (:saws1:) about good things, but I used to ask him about bad things, fearing that I would live to see such things. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, we were in a state of ignorance (jaahiliyyah) and evil, then Allaah sent us this good (i.e., Islam). Will there be any evil after this good?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Will there by any good after that evil?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it will be tainted.’ I said, ‘How will it be tainted?’ He said, ‘(There will be) some people who will guide others in a way that is not according to my guidance. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of others.’ I said, ‘Will there be any evil after that good?’ He said, ‘Yes, there will be people calling at the gates of Hell, and whoever responds to their call, they will throw them into it (the Fire).’ I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, describe them to us.’ He said, ‘They will be from among our people, speaking our language.’ I said, ‘What do you command me to do if I live to see such a thing?’ He said, ‘Adhere to the jamaa’ah (group, community) of the Muslims and their imaam (leader).’ I asked, ‘What if there is no jamaa’ah and no leader?’ He said, ‘Then keep away from all those groups, even if you have to bite (eat) the roots of a tree until death overtakes you whilst you are in that state.’” Agreed upon.

I call upon every Muslim to fear Allah in all that he says and does and to beware of fitnah and those who promote it. He should keep away from all that angers Allah or leads to His wrath, and he should be extremely cautious lest he be one of these callers to Hell of whom the Prophet (:saws1:) tells us in this hadeeth.

May Allah protect us from the evil of fitnah and its people, and protect this ummah from the evil of those who promote bad things. May He help the writers of our newspapers and all the Muslims to do that which pleases Him and may He set the Muslims straight and save them in this world and in the Hereafter, for He is Able to do that.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 3/351-353.

And finally, this is one of those threads which I'm going to be keeping a close eye on. If people get into arguments, I will close this thread.

[Maryan0]

I just spoke with 1f my uncle who is saudi for about 20 years he said that the saudis are concerned about culture they fear that if they allow women, it won't stop with going to the local grocery store or hospital saudis fear ladies will be all over the city 4 shopping, coffee....... etc. no offense this is just an opinion of a persons who lives in saudi

btw in villages they drive a lot of vehicles I mean he said beduine ladies (actually what this word mean ? beduine ! ) no restriction in villages

brother adrinos has a point they can drive while marams are with them

What's wrong with that? what are we subhuman? Now the grocery store is sinister ajeeb :heated: (nothing against you personally)
I've never been to Saudi Arabia but I have quite a bit of family who live there and I asked my aunt who came from there about this and she said women should not drive because they lack the focus and responsibility needed for driving. Driving is just too much responsibility for woman to handle. She drives here in Canada...

[LauraS]

Abd-la Latif- but in the article you posted the quotes all mention women remaining modest, surely if they drive while covered up there shouldn't be a problem? As for the "stay in your houses" part, are women then not allowed to go out unless it be completely necessary? You'd get a lot of fed up women. - I understand this is just a quote what you're saying though.

Mr President- Whaaaat? lol They don't think women should have a bit a relaxing time to get together? So what if they decide to go to coffee houses? Once again that doesn't mean they aren't covered up. Do they expect women to be prisoners in their own homes?

Guestfellow- Wow, that is ironic lol.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Abd-la Latif- but in the article you posted the quotes all mention women remaining modest, surely if they drive while covered up there shouldn't be a problem? As for the "stay in your houses" part, are women then not allowed to go out unless it be completely necessary? You'd get a lot of fed up women. - I understand this is just a quote what you're saying though.

Mr President- Whaaaat? lol They don't think women should have a bit a relaxing time to get together? So what if they decide to go to coffee houses? Once again that doesn't mean they aren't covered up. Do they expect women to be prisoners in their own homes?

Guestfellow- Wow, that is ironic lol.

Forget it; you aren’t getting your answer here. In that part of the world we are weak and inferior. We are to stay at home (the point of nigab, Hijab is?) and we are nothing but a baby making machine. :hmm:
The idea of us driving a car is completely out of the question. We will drive to non mahram but the men are morally superior. They won’t even dare to drive to non maharm. No they won’t.
So, don’t brother finding your answer here. Just give up. Because I have!

[LauraS]

Forget it; you aren’t getting your answer here. In that part of the world we are weak and inferior. We are to stay at home (the point of nigab, Hijab is?) and we are nothing but a baby making machine. :hmm:
The idea of us driving a car is completely out of the question. We will drive to non mahram but the men are morally superior. They won’t even dare to drive to non maharm. No they won’t.
So, don’t brother finding your answer here. Just give up. Because I have!

I think I should give up because I'll just be repeating myself and then I read another comment that's :heated: lol and then I can't help myself.

[GuestFellow]

Mr President- Whaaaat? lol They don't think women should have a bit a relaxing time to get together? So what if they decide to go to coffee houses? Once again that doesn't mean they aren't covered up. Do they expect women to be prisoners in their own homes?

:/

I've heard in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated at some places like restaurants. So you have one section for men, one section for women and a family section...I think. :/ The point is women are allowed to meet together and engage in...activities...like gossiping lol.

[CosmicPathos]

What's wrong with that? what are we subhuman? Now the grocery store is sinister ajeeb :heated: (nothing against you personally)
I've never been to Saudi Arabia but I have quite a bit of family who live there and I asked my aunt who came from there about this and she said women should not drive because they lack the focus and responsibility needed for driving. Driving is just too much responsibility for woman to handle. She drives here in Canada...

she drives because shes allowed to. She wont if shes not allowed to. Heard about something called herd psychology?

[CosmicPathos]

Salaam,

I think culture is the main problem here. There is no reason why Saudi women should not be allowed to drive. The Saudi scholars have weak arguments, whether their rulings are based on Islam or culture or a combination of both.

I do think change must come from within Saudi Arabia rather than pressure from human rights groups and foreign countries.

Your culture of eating all these delicious/sweet foods is a problem. It can give you diabetes, dyslipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, atherosclerosis, q wave stemi, congestive heart failure, chronic kidney failure, uremia, liver failure .... and death. but we dont go and forcibly keep sweet foods away from you. Just like that you cant enforce things into Saudi culture, especially being a non-Saudi yourself.

[al yunan]

Salam to all,

The Ummah's problems with Saudi Arabia versus a local issue is beyond rediculous as 20 medical specialist debating on a black head pimple while the patient is dying of terminal cancer.^o)

On to our issue
The issue of Saudi women's rights to drive is significant to the Ummah how ?
The issue of women's torture and defacement in South Asia is less deserving so much attention because ?
The issue of woman's lives in abject poverty, starvation and rape in the sub Sahara region is ignorable why ?
The issue of female mutilation in the Arab world is not worth mention on the grounds of ?
The issues of women's and females in general, are so many and serious costing unknown number of lives per day and yet we all can fill 5 pages on this thread why ?:embarrass

The true irony is we call each other ignorant plus other names:omg: as if any of us are a picture of Taqwa and Adab and secondly the notion that we actually have a say or a voice in Saudi's affairs.:hmm:

Should the I.M.F or O.P.E.C pass a conditional to monetary or oil restrictive Fatwa Aha ! that may do it ! (my attempt at Humour);D

Masalam

[Mr.President]

What's wrong with that? what are we subhuman? Now the grocery store is sinister ajeeb :heated: (nothing against you personally)
I've never been to Saudi Arabia but I have quite a bit of family who live there and I asked my aunt who came from there about this and she said women should not drive because they lack the focus and responsibility needed for driving. Driving is just too much responsibility for woman to handle. She drives here in Canada...

:omg: ;D subhuman !!! I aint against any of you driving its just an opinion of a person but what we need is an opinion of a saudi guy or lady then only we can really understand the problem

[ardianto]

It's not true if Saudi women are not allowed to drive. The truth is : Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi women can drive in other countries, even many of them have international driving license. Saudi govt know about it, of course. But Saudi govt never arrested Saudi women who drove in other countries.

The key to 'softening' this prohibition is in Ulama, not in government.

brother adrinos has a point they can drive while marams are with them

Oh, bro ! ........ my name is Ardianto. ;D

[FS123]

Salam to all,

The Ummah's problems with Saudi Arabia versus a local issue is beyond rediculous as 20 medical specialist debating on a black head pimple while the patient is dying of terminal cancer.^o)

On to our issue
The issue of Saudi women's rights to drive is significant to the Ummah how ?
The issue of women's torture and defacement in South Asia is less deserving so much attention because ?
The issue of woman's lives in abject poverty, starvation and rape in the sub Sahara region is ignorable why ?
The issue of female mutilation in the Arab world is not worth mention on the grounds of ?
The issues of women's and females in general, are so many and serious costing unknown number of lives per day and yet we all can fill 5 pages on this thread why ?:embarrass

The true irony is we call each other ignorant plus other names:omg: as if any of us are a picture of Taqwa and Adab and secondly the notion that we actually have a say or a voice in Saudi's affairs.:hmm:

Should the I.M.F or O.P.E.C pass a conditional to monetary or oil restrictive Fatwa Aha ! that may do it ! (my attempt at Humour);D

Masalam

Good points there bro!

[Mr.President]

It's not true if Saudi women are not allowed to drive. The truth is : Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi women can drive in other countries, even many of them have international driving license. Saudi govt know about it, of course. But Saudi govt never arrested Saudi women who drove in other countries.

The key to 'softening' this prohibition is in Ulama, not in government.



Oh, bro ! ........ my name is Ardianto. ;D

Asslamu alaikum
sorry 4 tht brother Ardianto :D

Another thing is women are allowed to drive in villages btw this article talks alot of stuff about women driving
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/women%20driving

[GuestFellow]

Your culture of eating all these delicious/sweet foods is a problem. It can give you diabetes, dyslipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, atherosclerosis, q wave stemi, congestive heart failure, chronic kidney failure, uremia, liver failure .... and death. but we dont go and forcibly keep sweet foods away from you. Just like that you cant enforce things into Saudi culture, especially being a non-Saudi yourself.

Salaam,

I'm not going to force anything on Saudi culture lol. I just gave my opinion. Like I said before, change must come from within Saudi Arabia.

My culture? I rarely eat cakes, believe it or not lol. I workout everyday (sometimes I forget) and want to keep in good shape. O_o

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Very interesting

US put pressure on Saudi Arabia to let women drive, leaked cables reveal

Documents given to WikiLeaks show Obama administration pushed Saudis to give female citizens more rights


The Obama administration has been quietly putting pressure on Saudi Arabia to allow women to drive, according to leaked US embassy cables. But the jailing of a woman protester, Manal al-Sharif, after she posted online a video of herself at the wheel of a car in Khobar reveals the extent of the US diplomatic failure. The cables, part of the treasure trove allegedly given to WikiLeaks by the US soldier Bradley Manning, reveal previously unreported clashes over women's rights.

Dispatches from Riyadh describe Saudi Arabia as "the world's largest women's prison". Those words are a quote from Wajeha al-Huwaider, a female campaigner with whom US diplomats have been in contact. She posted a video on YouTube in 2008 of herself driving. Claiming millions of Saudi women were prisoners in their homes, she challenged male control over work and travel. She regularly tried to take a taxi to neighbouring Bahrain. According to the cables, "al-Huwaider is divorced which means under Saudi law her ex-husband or her father or a brother would need to give her permission to leave the country. Although she holds a valid passport, every time she tries to leave ... she is stopped at the border to Bahrain and turned around."

The billionaire tycoon Prince Waleed, a Saudi royal, assured a visiting Democratic congressman in July 2009 that King Abdullah did support women's rights, the embassy noted optimistically. The driving ban was reportedly about to be overturned.

Speaking at his 99-storey Kingdom Tower in Riyadh, Waleed said the ban was merely a "demeaning" tribal custom and that he "relished relating his run-ins with the kingdom's religious conservatives. He was involved with the first public showings of films in the kingdom in many years. His wife has openly requested that women be allowed to drive. He supports French president Sarkozy's campaign against women wearing coverings hiding their faces."

Abdullah appointed the country's first woman deputy minister in 2009 and opened "with much fanfare" a mixed-sex science university, in front of foreign dignitaries including Prince Andrew. The embassy noted approvingly "several subtle, symbolic gestures ... Saudi men and women, many of whom did not wear the face-covering niqab, mingled freely with international attendees throughout the ceremony. Male and female students stood side by side on stage for an emotive reading of a poem. The ceremony was interspaced with a movie showing (uncovered) young girls and boys studying together."

But there was an immediate backlash. Saad Nasser al-****hri, a cleric from the council of senior scholars, appeared on the Saudi religious TV channel to defy the king. He denounced "mixing of the sexes" and "the teaching of deviant ideas such as evolution".

Abdullah was forced to sack him, but embassy contacts warned privately that ****hri was being regarded as a hero by unemployed young Saudis, who resented foreign students getting advantages, and by reactionary clerics, who feared a plot to impose western values. Another cleric, Sheikh Salman al-Duwaysh, publicly attacked "mixing with women on the basis of claiming to educate them and to open the field for them to undertake jobs for which they were not created". He said such women had "abandoned their basic duties such as housekeeping, bringing up children ... and replaced this by beautifying themselves and wantonness".

The embassy was refused consent for a US "rhythm and oratory duo" called Teasley and Williams to play to a mixed audience at the university. But the duo did appear at the Riyadh literary society before "an unprecedented mixed-gender audience (mixed by Saudi standards – the handful of women who attended sat in a screened-off block of seats across the aisle from the men). Nonetheless, the fact that women were even invited to a musical performance with men in Riyadh is remarkable".

Obama's envoy, Richard Erdman, privately scolded Saudi ministers to little effect. He "pointedly" told the notoriously reactionary interior minister, Prince Naif, that "no nation could prosper without the intellectual contributions and talent of all its citizens ... (ie women)". He said the same to the deputy foreign minister, who responded wryly that "customs were a hard nut to crack".

In a dispatch headed "Women need not apply", US diplomats recorded that US-educated Prince Mansur, the minister of municipal affairs, firmly rejected the notion that political development required the participation of women, saying issues such as women driving were "not fundamental to our society". According to the US diplomats, the driving ban is in fact something of a charade which "dates from a 1991 fatwa issued by the late grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Baz. The grand mufti claimed that allowing women to drive would result in public 'mixing' of men and women, put women into dangerous situations because they could be alone in cars, and therefore result in social chaos."

The cable continued: "Women drive anyway: there are, in fact, many instances in which Saudi women defy the prohibition.

"Women drive on private property such as desert farms or residential compounds beyond reach of police.

"Embassy contacts and media report that in rural areas women routinely drive out of necessity, without being stopped.

"Al-Hayat newspaper reported 16 February ... a woman driving in some Saudi villages is considered normal."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...et-women-drive

[peace_maker]

I think the major reason why women in Saudi Arabia(not Saudi women) are not allowed to drive is because of the mahram issue. As much as this is right, it's also wrong. The girls here don't go to schools, colleges, universities or jobs with their mahrams. So I don't see the point of driving without mahram. Women here go along everywhere without mahram, so this no big issue.
Anyhow, if this is the case, then I'm for the idea of allowing women to drive without the mahram inside the city only. For starters, I think it's okay to abide the women from travelling long distances without mahram.

About the veil issue, I think the best way to clarify this to ask someone who wears it.
I've been wearing it for years now, and I still have few difficulties with it. Especially when it's windy. Also sometimes, it gets into the eyes, which I agree will be a problem while driving. So it's fine with me if there'd be a rule against veil while driving. It's not against Islam or anything.

As far as dating is concerned, I don't think the country should be responsible for keeping women religious. They themselves should decide which way they want to live.

I know Saudi Arabia has beautifully managed it's religious aspects like no other country. But, I don't think women driving would be that big of a problem.

[ardianto]

Anyhow, if this is the case, then I'm for the idea of allowing women to drive without the mahram inside the city only.

I guess, you got this idea because you have heard fatawa from non-Saudi Ulama that mentioned if women are allowed to traveling alone as long as not go far more than the maximum distance in Sharia. Maybe you right, but Saudi Ulama (or at least one Saudi Alim) have different view.

Imagine if you drive a car traveling around your city within radius 10 miles from your home. You drive in two hours with constant speed 30 miles per hour. The question : how far you leave your home ?. You can answer 10 miles. But according to that Alim 60 miles. He didn't count how far you from your home, but how long distance that you have reached.

I found in a fatwa, if a woman drive a car traveling around the city, she can goes more than maximum distance without she realize.

I still remember this fatwa, but unfortunately I don't remember name of Alim who issued this fatwa.

['Abd-al Latif]

Forget it; you aren’t getting your answer here. In that part of the world we are weak and inferior. We are to stay at home (the point of nigab, Hijab is?) and we are nothing but a baby making machine. :hmm:
The idea of us driving a car is completely out of the question. We will drive to non mahram but the men are morally superior. They won’t even dare to drive to non maharm. No they won’t.
So, don’t brother finding your answer here. Just give up. Because I have!

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

['Abd-al Latif]

Abd-la Latif- but in the article you posted the quotes all mention women remaining modest, surely if they drive while covered up there shouldn't be a problem? As for the "stay in your houses" part, are women then not allowed to go out unless it be completely necessary? You'd get a lot of fed up women. - I understand this is just a quote what you're saying though.

Mr President- Whaaaat? lol They don't think women should have a bit a relaxing time to get together? So what if they decide to go to coffee houses? Once again that doesn't mean they aren't covered up. Do they expect women to be prisoners in their own homes?

Guestfellow- Wow, that is ironic lol.

Bear with me. I'll respond to you but I've been extremely busy.

[Maryan0]

she drives because shes allowed to. She wont if shes not allowed to. Heard about something called herd psychology?

It's not so much the being "allowed" or not but the justification she was giving. I would assume if you lack focus and responsibility when driving it would be the same whether you're in Saudi Arabia or the western world...
Salam

[Rhubarb Tart]

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

:sl:

That is the impression I am getting from this forum. Utter suffocation and who needs western media when this forum and their members are doing all the work for them.

So yes when I do log off from this forum I tend to feel like I came out of the jungle with all of the braches, the hot weather, the snakes and the insects. Do you know that feeling you get when you are all sweating and confused?

I came to this forum to clear misconceptions gained from experience s like horrendous marriage, blood brothers and culture. And I wasn’t really active in this forum until about a year ago or so.

But this forum has done little. Granted, some people have cleared and explained some things but not all. In some case added to the misconceptions.

I came out this forum every time thinking why is that one gender doesn’t have full accountability whilst other does? Why does one group have to take the extra mile whilst other doesn’t? Why does changes have to occur on one side not the other?

And then you have ‘members’ from the same group as you. And they say well hmm I don’t have a problem with it, why do you? Well I am not you..

And I am not a ‘modernist’ or ‘feminist’ or any other ridiculous ideologist, I am your average Muslim that prays, never committed zina, never taken drugs, I never had male friends. I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

I can’t grip with the idea that I am created to stay at home; ask permission from male relative like they are perfect. My relatives and ex are far from perfect; they are one of the worse. They really are. Yet they get to have some control over me?

Do you know that feeling when you stay up during the night and pray and pray? And you don’t get any answers?
You expect at least some justice in this world. And you don’t get any not from sentence the British justice system give out not from your own **** family.

The gender thing is not huge problem. It is the forgiveness part that is bugging me. I don’t even know if I am still a Muslim? Because I actually hated someone and it was for good reasons not minor stuff. Takes me back to the accountability, that person has never take any responsibility for his own action despite it being horrific enough to land him in jail.

It always happens to be my fault. ‘You didn’t listen to him’ ‘you must have said something’ ‘you, you, you'.

[Maryan0]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

[FS123]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

Well said sister, but I think the main reason is fear what will happen the sin, corruption, etc... as the saying goes: road to hell (sometimes) are paved with good intentions.

[Maryan0]

Well said sister, but I think the main reason is fear what will happen the sin, corruption, etc... as the saying goes: road to hell (sometimes) are paved with good intentions.

Sin and corruption will always exist. There should obviously be preventative measures taken to prevent such things from happening but this should be done without acting like big brother. Even with all these extreme laws in Saudi Arabia fitna there exists as it does anywhere else in the world.
That saying is very true and jazakhallah bro.
Salam

[Mr.President]

this thread has got lot of temp..!

[al yunan]

I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

Assalamu Alaikum sister,

I first considered to P.M this, but after second thoughts its best to be public as you as well as all of us Muslims on this forum are part of the same Ummah regardless of our likes or dislikes of each other.

I would like to start of with a reminder of the verse "no soul shall be burdened with more than it can bear" and a Hadith " beware of what you hate and talk about often least Allah S.W.T turn you into that which you hate" (not ad verbum).

Now sister every one of us has to deal with problems it's a blessing not a curse so sister the fault lies with your perception
Inshallah try and see your self as Allah S.W.T's servant and not to feel as if you have been enslaved by life and the world.
You seem very intelligent and yet you project hostility which infers misunderstanding.
Learn to place your trust in Allah S.W.T and say with Feeling and conviction "Hasbunallah waniaman Wakil" as often as possible and I promise you your life will change.
It is natural to doubt your Iman when you allow negative relatives or not very Islamically conscious family members to get into your head, no matter as to their cause or their number for even if you should add all their influence or power as you believe they exercise over you; surely Allah S.W.T's power is greater.

As for forgiveness it's hard for all of us, so rather than think of forgiving them, forgive them for the sake of Allah S.W.T.
Just so that I'm not misunderstood forgiveness does not imply being taken advantage of.
Contrary to what you might think, there is a lot of Barakat on this Forum and if we did not care for each other what kind of Humans would that makes us never mind Muslims yet again we all have human frailties and aspire to be nobler in the eyes of our Lord A.T.

Hopefully you see my point about perception and placing your trust in the only one that truly matters in your life, Allah S.W.T.

Masalam

[Riana17]

Saudi Arabian women demanding right to drive are threatened with beatings, arrested
By Elizabeth Flock


If this is real....:anger:

tied up with the culture

[Riana17]

this thread has got lot of temp..!

u are very funny ;D

[LauraS]

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

But it's not just about throwing a tantrum, it's frustration. It seems that women over there can't be trusted with freedom. They aren't allowed to drive in case they spend more time with their friends than looking after the house. Sweet106 sounds like she's suffered through perceptions of men being always in the rght and the complete head of the household so maybe people should listen to what she says rather than dismissing it (granted, you posted this before her big post). Women may have their Islamic rights but surely knowing them and being allowed to exercise them are two different things, especially is certain men decide to twist Islam in their favour e.g. things about driving cars wouldn't have be written down two thousand years ago so they choose to decide for themselves whether Allah would like women to drive cars, even though they were allowed to "drive" camels.

[Mr.President]

Okay this is becoming a hot topic any way since there's only predictions like if women drive this will happen that will happen, and there are two opinions even scholars

There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking.

Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. “But the thing is, it is not the men of the house who are the actual ones driving and fulfilling their families’ needs. It is the foreign drivers,” he said.

There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking.

Mohammed al-Zulfa, a former member of the Shura Council, refuses seeing women as fragile and in need of protection. “Women are much stronger than we imagine. There are many widows and divorcees who provide for their entire families,” he said, adding that people should have faith in them and they should be trusted.

He added that issues involving women are sensitive and are often dealt with in a conservative fashion. “The Shura usually puts an issue up for discussion should there be a recommendation to do so. Yet the issue of driving has not even been presented for discussion, as there is a fatwa on the matter issued by the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars in 1990-1991.

We need a fatwa to annul the previous one or a royal decree,” he said.
Al-Zulfa said religious institutes tolerate women mixing or being in "khalwa" (privacy) with their drivers but stop short of allowing women to drive. “It is a cultural and social issue rather than a religious one,” he said, adding that it is a political decision and should be dealt with by the government.

What al-Zulfa says about the issue being a social and cultural matter, rather than a religious one, is something that bin Baz agrees on. “There are rights the government should give like education, health care and the ability to move and use transportation freely,” he said.

source

Questioner: Is it permissible for a woman to drive a car?

Answer:

If it is permissible for her to ride upon a (female) donkey then it is permissible for her to drive a car.
Questioner:

But there is a difference between a donkey and a car.

Sh Al-Albaanee:

Which is more concealing – riding upon a donkey or in a car? I would suggest (riding in) a car.

Shaykh Naasir ud-Deen al-Albaanee

So the government should give the right to the women to drive <--My personal opinion :\

[ardianto]

Shaykh Nasiruddin Al-Albani is not Saudian. His opinions were not always same with Saudi Ulama. In example, Saudi Ulama say, women are obligated to cover their faces. But Shaykh Al-Albani said, woman face is not awrah.

[peace_maker]

I guess, you got this idea because you have heard fatawa from non-Saudi Ulama that mentioned if women are allowed to traveling alone as long as not go far more than the maximum distance in Sharia. Maybe you right, but Saudi Ulama (or at least one Saudi Alim) have different view.

Imagine if you drive a car traveling around your city within radius 10 miles from your home. You drive in two hours with constant speed 30 miles per hour. The question : how far you leave your home ?. You can answer 10 miles. But according to that Alim 60 miles. He didn't count how far you from your home, but how long distance that you have reached.

I found in a fatwa, if a woman drive a car traveling around the city, she can goes more than maximum distance without she realize.

I still remember this fatwa, but unfortunately I don't remember name of Alim who issued this fatwa.

Nope, I just felt like it would be okay, cause there are many hadeeths supporting the mahram fact. :hmm:

[CosmicPathos]

Okay this is becoming a hot topic any way since there's only predictions like if women drive this will happen that will happen, and there are two opinions even scholars









source





So the government should give the right to the women to drive <--My personal opinion :\

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

Culture, culture, culture. I always hear tantrums about culture on these forums. People are trying to blame their "culture" for things which they disagree with and use Islam to fit in with their conceptions and views. So they are not changing their views according to Islam, but they are viewing Islam according to their ideas/views and trying to interpret it to fit with their ideology. Something that atheists use to reject religion since its diverse as number of its followers.

Sweet106: Your story shows that you have had some interesting experiences in life but your analysis of it is not sufficient. I hope you will be more open minded when trying to understand your past life. Maybe the fault lied in something that you did, and not really on your ex? Ever thought about that? We have a tendency to always focus on the good and happy dandy things that we do and we possess and criticize others, maybe traverse the other road this time.

all the best.

[ardianto]

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

In another forum I made some posts to argue Shaykh Al-Albani opinion about wear watch on the left hand is same like imitate kuffar. But in this forum, let me defend Shaykh Al-Albani opinion. Donkey is different than car, of course. But Shaykh Al-Albani did not wrong, women are permissible to drive car.

As I said before, I have 'reviewed' fatawa that support prohibition to drive car for women. But I did not find any daleel that can be used to ban woman to drive car. Okay, I know, I am just a layman, not an Alim. My Islamic knowledge is very low.

Please, show me a fatwa that can be used to ban woman drive a car if her mahram is in the car.

[Mr.President]

I am not bound to have only one opinion about women driving please enlighten me what exactly the problem if women drive cars ?

if they don't drive they have to go with NON MAHRAM DRIVERS ! And in many cases theres a lot of possibilities that HARAM affairs happen in between these non mahram drivers and women (not all women)

[LauraS]

"There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking."

I this referring to the drivers who are paid to take the women around? I got confused then lol.

"Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. "

Doesn't that just sum up the whole argument that it's to do with male control rather than women's safety?

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

Culture, culture, culture. I always hear tantrums about culture on these forums. People are trying to blame their "culture" for things which they disagree with and use Islam to fit in with their conceptions and views. So they are not changing their views according to Islam, but they are viewing Islam according to their ideas/views and trying to interpret it to fit with their ideology. Something that atheists use to reject religion since its diverse as number of its followers.

Sweet106: Your story shows that you have had some interesting experiences in life but your analysis of it is not sufficient. I hope you will be more open minded when trying to understand your past life. Maybe the fault lied in something that you did, and not really on your ex? Ever thought about that? We have a tendency to always focus on the good and happy dandy things that we do and we possess and criticize others, maybe traverse the other road this time.

all the best.

Did you not read what she said? Everyone says that already, assuming it is the wife who is at fault, yet from what I read the man even went to jail? But I won't say more on that because it's none of my business. :omg:

Can I ask your opinion on women driving? Do you agree or not and, in school exam style, explain your answer. :)

[CosmicPathos]

"There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking."

I this referring to the drivers who are paid to take the women around? I got confused then lol.

"Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. "

Doesn't that just sum up the whole argument that it's to do with male control rather than women's safety?





Did you not read what she said? Everyone says that already, assuming it is the wife who is at fault, yet from what I read the man even went to jail? But I won't say more on that because it's none of my business. :omg:

Can I ask your opinion on women driving? Do you agree or not and, in school exam style, explain your answer. :)

Well my opinion doesnt matter when Islam is concerned but here is what I think. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with women driving. Just like there is nothing wrong with women wearing bikini. They can drive what they want, they can wear what they want. But.

In a society where majority of people do not accept such views, for whatever reason, such views should be upheld. In Saudi, its not liked if women wear bikini outside. In the same way its not liked that they drive cars. In ancient times, I guess not many Saudi women rode horses, it was men's domain. Today, Saudi views cars as horses and hence again take it to be domain of men.

What role Islam plays in these views? I am not too sure. Islam did not specifically say that women should not ride horses. And seemingly Prophet Muhammad pbuh was okay with this culture. Allah swt did not reveal verses which said that women should start using riding horses etc. And despite the lack of Divine prohibition they didnt really ride horses, maybe it has something to do with socio-biological milieu of Arabia. So I guess that culture has continued on till today.

[MSalman]

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

[CosmicPathos]

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

walaikum assalam,

well I hope you are not playing that "ignorance card" in which the whole world is ignorant except the few members of a specific cult.

well I have quite an extensive exposure to Saudi way of living, I grew up there, and hence I am sure I do understand the situation as well.

So are you saying that driving was banned because of fitna of young women driving? Why did not such a controversy arise before the advent of cars? Are there fatwas in which scholars specifically banned the riding of horses by females? Since you seem well-read in Usool Al Fiqh, you can help me out here.

w salam

[ardianto]

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

Assalamu' Alaikum, brother.

Please review my statement "There is no any daleel that can be used to ban women to drive car as long as their mahram are in the car"

[MSalman]

@mad_scientist

wa alaykum as-salaam

Let me correct myself, it was about blocking the means to haraam. As far rest of your questions, I don't know.

well I hope you are not playing that "ignorance card" in which the whole world is ignorant except the few members of a specific cult.

my comment about ignorance and speaking without knowledge was meant to be kind reminder for all of us, including myself, nothing more nothing less.

[Uthman]

Yes, my understanding is that this is a context-specific fatwa where the scholars of that land, after assessing the situation, concluded that was too much fitnah occurring as a result of women driving. Therefore, they closed the door to it by applying the principle of Sadd'l Dhara'i ("blocking the means").

[MSalman]

Assalamu' Alaikum, brother.

Please review my statement "There is no any daleel that can be used to ban women to drive car as long as their mahram are in the car"

wa'alaykum as-salaam

Bismillah

Akhee, are you talking about specific Saudi situation or general? Generally speaking, as the scholars have said, it's permissible for women to drive. But this is one of those ruling which come under the heading "ruling could change depending on consequences". Hence, exceptions could be made to general ruling, which happened in this case of Saudi women not allowed to drive. Depending on certain situations and circumstances, halal can become haram and vice versa. For example, it's permissible to eat non-zabiha meat if it's matter of life and death. It's permissible to lie in three situations. Similarly, if it was matter of life and death and a sister has to drive someone to hospital when no other means are available, for example, then I'm sure no scholar would say that it's not permissible.

We can disagree with scholars' deduction etc but what I can't swallow is whoo haa by some Muslims who unjustly criticize the scholars as if they didn't base their ijtihad upon any shari evidence and were speaking form their desires to control women etc.

and Allah knows best

[ardianto]

wa'alaykum as-salaam

Bismillah

Akhee, are you talking about specific Saudi situation or general? Generally speaking, as the scholars have said, it's permissible for women to drive. But this is one of those ruling which come under the heading "ruling could change depending on consequences". Hence, exceptions could be made to general ruling, which happened in this case of Saudi women not allowed to drive. Depending on certain situations and circumstances, halal can become haram and vice versa. For example, it's permissible to eat non-zabiha meat if it's matter of life and death. It's permissible to lie in three situations. Similarly, if it was matter of life and death and a sister has to drive someone to hospital when no other means are available, for example, then I'm sure no scholar would say that it's not permissible.

We can disagree with scholars' deduction etc but what I can't swallow is whoo haa by some Muslims who unjustly criticize the scholars as if they didn't base their ijtihad upon any shari evidence and were speaking form their desires to control women etc

and Allah knows best

Assalamu 'alaikum, Akhee.

For this time, I cannot say anything except Jazak Allahu Khayran.

[Getoffmyback]

I wish if the title was saudi men are trying to put saudi women at driving seat:)

['Abd-al Latif]

:sl:

That is the impression I am getting from this forum. Utter suffocation and who needs western media when this forum and their members are doing all the work for them.

So yes when I do log off from this forum I tend to feel like I came out of the jungle with all of the braches, the hot weather, the snakes and the insects. Do you know that feeling you get when you are all sweating and confused?

I came to this forum to clear misconceptions gained from experience s like horrendous marriage, blood brothers and culture. And I wasn’t really active in this forum until about a year ago or so.

But this forum has done little. Granted, some people have cleared and explained some things but not all. In some case added to the misconceptions.

I came out this forum every time thinking why is that one gender doesn’t have full accountability whilst other does? Why does one group have to take the extra mile whilst other doesn’t? Why does changes have to occur on one side not the other?

And then you have ‘members’ from the same group as you. And they say well hmm I don’t have a problem with it, why do you? Well I am not you..

And I am not a ‘modernist’ or ‘feminist’ or any other ridiculous ideologist, I am your average Muslim that prays, never committed zina, never taken drugs, I never had male friends. I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

I can’t grip with the idea that I am created to stay at home; ask permission from male relative like they are perfect. My relatives and ex are far from perfect; they are one of the worse. They really are. Yet they get to have some control over me?

Do you know that feeling when you stay up during the night and pray and pray? And you don’t get any answers?
You expect at least some justice in this world. And you don’t get any not from sentence the British justice system give out not from your own **** family.

The gender thing is not huge problem. It is the forgiveness part that is bugging me. I don’t even know if I am still a Muslim? Because I actually hated someone and it was for good reasons not minor stuff. Takes me back to the accountability, that person has never take any responsibility for his own action despite it being horrific enough to land him in jail.

It always happens to be my fault. ‘You didn’t listen to him’ ‘you must have said something’ ‘you, you, you'.

I don't understand what most of this has to do with anything, but let me point out a few things.

1) One gender is not created superior than the other. Women can achieve what men can and vice versa. Each can perform the same good deeds and reach the same milestone, the same intended goal and the same rank and status. Men and women are equal, but not even and this is why we have different ways of achieving our goals. The jihad of men is combating in arms, the jihad if women is hajj. The inheritance of men is more because men are obliged to spend it on their family, women inherit less because whatever she gets is hers to keep and spend as she likes.

2) Staying at home isn't a command of possessive men, it's a religious command and a woman will be rewarded for her obedience to Allah. She is allowed to leave her house to study, to fulfil needs and even to work if there is a need for her to work. But a balance in a family would require some members to work outside the home while others stay at home.

3) If you have come so far as to safeguard yourself from major sins, what recognition do you expect people to give you? What reward do you expecting from the son of Adam? Your reward is with Allah. The son of Adam isn't grateful to his Lord, do you think he will be grateful to people?

4) Yes I know the feeling of not having du'aa responded. But the delay or the lack of response from Allah is a trial. Allah will reward me in the next life or ward off a calamity equal to the strength of my du'aa, so long as I do not become impatient.

Even the Prophets were tried with a delay in response:

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تَدْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُم مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلِكُم ۖ مَّسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاءُ وَالضَّرَّاءُوَزُلْزِلُوا حَتَّىٰ يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ مَتَىٰ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ ۗ أَلَا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللَّهِ قَرِيبٌ

"Or you think that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty, ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who had faith with him said, ‘When will the Help of Allah come?’ Yes! Indeed Allah’s help is close!" (al-Baqarah 2:214)

If my du'aas are not answered then I know that the problem is not with Allah, the problem is with me. Either my heart was heedless when making du'aa or sins are blocking the response.

None of this has anything to do with the topic title, but what needs to be clarified is that the ban on women driving isn't because of their incapability to drive, but rather to close the cracks for shaytan to lay his traps.

[Rhubarb Tart]

^^^Actually that response had nothing to do with the topic at hand rather to do with your response to me.
My understanding of stay at home is similar to this: http://muslimmatters.org/2010/06/30/...in-your-homes/
I know that one gender is not superior to other but this driving ban puts responsibility on one gender. And I also know another reason that was given was the women were going to drive to non marhram. But what about those men who will drive to non mahram? Does it not go both ways?
Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

[CosmicPathos]

^^^Actually that response had nothing to do with the topic at hand rather to do with your response to me.
My understanding of stay at home is similar to this: http://muslimmatters.org/2010/06/30/...in-your-homes/
I know that one gender is not superior to other but this driving ban puts responsibility on one gender. And I also know another reason that was given was the women were going to drive to non marhram. But what about those men who will drive to non mahram? Does it not go both ways?
Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

It is your perception that the ban has not worked. For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

And Muslim Matters is not an authority on Islam.

[Rhubarb Tart]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response sis.
I know, I know Islam isn’t as black and white as some people make it out to be. I guess my perception clouded my judgment abit ^o).
Hey I just thought a solution. Don’t you think the Saudi government can create a public transport for women only? Like London buses and trams but female version etc? :shade: Do they have that? I know they have buses for school girls. The country is rich enough to do this.

[Rhubarb Tart]

It is your perception that the ban has not worked. For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

And Muslim Matters is not an authority on Islam.

You keep saying many Saudi wants it. Yet you haven’t provided any proof. There are clearly some who still violate the law and don’t agree with it.
Evidently, it also has not worked if some women have to take a taxi to get to places.
I did not say Muslim matter is an authority on Islam. My understanding of staying at home is the same as theirs. (I also consulted scholars on the matter too).

[Ar-RaYYan]

Inshallah lifting the ban on female drivers have to come from within Saudi Arabia. Outsiders can say whatever they want but at the end of the day ordinary saudi women (and hopefully men inshallah) have to take a lead and demand that their government abolish this ban. It was the same with the Arab spring; it didnt come from the West or influential leaders but ordinary egyptians, tunisians men and women who had enough with their corrupt leaders. It doesnt mean we are heartless or insensitive- we can still show support but protesting and challenging the saudi government have to start from people who are directly affected and reading the articles it seems it has already started. Inshallah I hope that they succeed and are given their rights back Allah has given them.

[GuestFellow]

For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

Salaam,

Do you have evidence for this? I'm know that you were raised in Saudi Arabia but you do not speak for all Saudis. :/

Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

[Ar-RaYYan]

Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

I doubt that those scholars who originally issued the ban on female drivers were also suggesting that its permissible for a woman to be driven on her own with a male driver. But yes they should have considered the practical side too such as not being possible for every woman's mahram to be available to drive her somewhere therefore would need to hire non-maharam drivers.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salaam,

Do you have evidence for this? I'm know that you were raised in Saudi Arabia but you do not speak for all Saudis. :/



Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

Aside from the banning, I would have expected them to suggest solutions for those who are affected by the ban.
In the UK, there is Taxi Company where women are the only drivers. http://www.enterprisequest.com/view_mbp/?mbp=mbp311

They should do something similar and make it affordable. Or they can create women only transport or something.

[Pygoscelis]

A ban on one gender from driving is sexist on the face of it. You can make up all the justification you like, religious or otherwise, but that doesn't make it not sexist. Women voluntarily deciding not to drive is one thing, but others telling them they can't is something else altogether.

I'm curious now, are women actaually punished in some way if they do go out driving? What if anything is done to them?

[MSalman]

Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

wa'alaykum as-salaam

I don't know about the taxi issue but the scholars did speak against the evil of travelling alone with drivers. Just because the secular media doesn't report it, it doesn't mean they never spoke out against it.

On another note, a sister mentioned on another forum that this law is restricted to inner-cities. Outside of cities, women are allowed to drive, Allahu A'lam.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that we should NOT mix up general ruling with exceptions/cases of necessity. And Allah knows best

For love of Allah, we need to start thinking good about other Muslims, specially the people of knowledge, and analyze ourselves first before pointing fingers and criticizing others all the time. The pious scholars are more concerned about the deen than us!

A ban on one gender from driving is sexist on the face of it. You can make up all the justification you like, religious or otherwise, but that doesn't make it not sexist. Women voluntarily deciding not to drive is one thing, but others telling them they can't is something else altogether.

Mate, you've more important issues to worry about than determining whether this particular issue is sexist or not.

[LauraS]

Mate, you've more important issues to worry about than determining whether this particular issue is sexist or not.

But as this thread is about this particular issue and not others then he can "worry" about it all he likes. ^o)

Also, I very much agree with him!

[GuestFellow]

wa'alaykum as-salaam

I don't know about the taxi issue but the scholars did speak against the evil of travelling alone with drivers. Just because the secular media doesn't report it, it doesn't mean they never spoke out against it.

:sl:

The scholars have spoken against it but have not taken any steps to prevent women being alone with male drivers?

I watched a Saudi documentary, and women were allowed to sit alone with male drivers.

For love of Allah, we need to start thinking good about other Muslims, specially the people of knowledge, and analyze ourselves first before pointing fingers and criticizing others all the time.

I'm personally not thinking anything bad about other Muslims. I'm simply raising questions. This issue about women driving in Saudi Arabia is confusing. It is the only Muslim country in the world to ban women from driving, so of course, questions are going to be raised.

[MSalman]

But as this thread is about this particular issue and not others then he can "worry" about it all he likes. ^o)

it was nothing more than a gesture of advice. Because such speech is rooted in a deeper ideology which needs to be discussed instead of secondary issues.

Also, I very much agree with him!

Please by all means but what's the point? We can find many examples of sexism in westerns societies. But where does it lead us? If we were to just look at the definition of the world sexism, we can figure out lots of things.

:sl:

wa'alaykum as-salaam

The scholars have spoken against it but have not taken any steps to prevent women being alone with male drivers?

what kinda steps? I suppose you're talking about issuing a fatawa and asking government to ban it. Scholars like Shaykh ibn Baz and Uthaymeen (rahimahumullah) spoke against both evils and clearly said that neither of them should be done. Maybe they did ask the government in private to legislate it but government doesn't want to; Allahu A'lam. We need to understand the society is very different than ours and it's not easy to speak your mind in public. Many scholars have many opinions and you can learn about them only threw their students because they don't talk about it in public. This is why it's important to have husn al-dhaan and not rush to conclusions. We need to learn to make excuses for each other, specially the people of knowledge; this is part of our Islamic personality and adab.

I'm personally not thinking anything bad about other Muslims. I'm simply raising questions. This issue about women driving in Saudi Arabia is confusing. It is the only Muslim country in the world to ban women from driving, so of course, questions are going to be raised.

akhee al-kareem, just to be clear, my advice was general, directed to all of us. Raising questions is fine and one thing but criticizing, unjustly attacking the scholars, speaking without knowledge is another.

and indeed Allah knows best

[CosmicPathos]

Salaam,

Do you have evidence for this? I'm know that you were raised in Saudi Arabia but you do not speak for all Saudis. :/



Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

exactly. And these women who took on to the streets do not speak for the rest of Saudis, who it seems are in majority.

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

exactly. And these women who took on to the streets do not speak for the rest of Saudis, who it seems are in majority.

Agreed. There must be some Saudi women who do not support women driving.

what kinda steps? I suppose you're talking about issuing a fatawa and asking government to ban it. Scholars like Shaykh ibn Baz and Uthaymeen (rahimahumullah) spoke against both evils and clearly said that neither of them should be done. Maybe they did ask the government in private to legislate it but government doesn't want to; Allahu A'lam. We need to understand the society is very different than ours and it's not easy to speak your mind in public. Many scholars have many opinions and you can learn about them only threw their students because they don't talk about it in public. This is why it's important to have husn al-dhaan and not rush to conclusions. We need to learn to make excuses for each other, specially the people of knowledge; this is part of our Islamic personality and adab.

How powerful are the Islamic scholars in Saudi Arabia? Just curious.

akhee al-kareem, just to be clear, my advice was general, directed to all of us. Raising questions is fine and one thing but criticizing, unjustly attacking the scholars, speaking without knowledge is another.

and indeed Allah knows best

Okay. :)

[Pygoscelis]

Please by all means but what's the point? We can find many examples of sexism in westerns societies. But where does it lead us? If we were to just look at the definition of the world sexism, we can figure out lots of things.

Because Christianity is the majority religion there and Christianity's holy book is explicitly sexist, telling women to honour and obey men, as men obey the lord.

The point here is that this is blatantly sexist (discrimination against women - note it would not be sexist if this was just women voluntarily refraining from doing this instead of a ban imposed on them by the state). The next question is whether that is to be frowned upon or encouraged. Do you want a sexist society? Does a sexist society run better? Is it superior to an egalitarian society?

['Abd-al Latif]

Because Christianity is the majority religion there and Christianity's holy book is explicitly sexist, telling women to honour and obey men, as men obey the lord.

The point here is that this is blatantly sexist (discrimination against women - note it would not be sexist if this was just women voluntarily refraining from doing this instead of a ban imposed on them by the state). The next question is whether that is to be frowned upon or encouraged. Do you want a sexist society? Does a sexist society run better? Is it superior to an egalitarian society?

This is your personal opinion. Read the context of the banning stated in the ruling I posted earlier. Keep it in context to that.

[MSalman]

How powerful are the Islamic scholars in Saudi Arabia? Just curious.

as-salaamu alaykum

I don't know akhee but I can relay to you what I have heard from a student of knowledge and my personal observation. According to this brother, when Saudi was established the scholars made the deal with the family: Scholars will look after religious affairs and the family will look after the political affairs. Allahu A'lam how much each other intervene in others affairs. But one thing is clear that the scholars can only issue the fatawas, they've no control over government legislating something in the country. Unfortunately, this is the sate we live in and it is pretty much same in the entire Muslim world. The scholars have clearly spoken out against (issued fatawas) against many evils happening in Saudi, supported by the government, for example extending the sahi area, riba based banks, car insurance, non-shari courts for Muslims, ruling by laws other Allah's, rise of secularism and secularists control over media. and indeed Allah knows best

The point here is that this is blatantly sexist (discrimination against women - note it would not be sexist if this was just women voluntarily refraining from doing this instead of a ban imposed on them by the state). The next question is whether that is to be frowned upon or encouraged. Do you want a sexist society? Does a sexist society run better? Is it superior to an egalitarian society?

I think we're kinda going off-topic. Your points are purely subjective and even if I were to agree with you that you're right it doesn't get us anywhere. Every society is based and built upon an ideology. The question which society would run better leads us nowhere. Who's going to be the judge? What is the criteria? Which ideology is better? Let's ignore this for a second but look at another side of reality: at least they don't propagate and claim that they are saviour of equal rights between genders and have championed the cause like you (west) yet on other hand you do not give humans their basic rights and there are many examples of sexism. You are turning a blind eye to what's happening in your own societies and not cleaning the garbage in your own house rather you are too eager to point problems in other society which is based upon an entirely different ideology than yours; hence, you're biased in your judgment and criticism. Maybe we can discuss this topic in length some other day in an appropriate topic :)

[Lynx]

Well my opinion doesnt matter when Islam is concerned but here is what I think. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with women driving. Just like there is nothing wrong with women wearing bikini. They can drive what they want, they can wear what they want. But.

In a society where majority of people do not accept such views, for whatever reason, such views should be upheld. In Saudi, its not liked if women wear bikini outside. In the same way its not liked that they drive cars. In ancient times, I guess not many Saudi women rode horses, it was men's domain. Today, Saudi views cars as horses and hence again take it to be domain of men.

So do you think if the majority of a society wanted to see women walk around with breasts exposed even if a minority felt this was exploitative and protested against this, that women should still be forced to walk around with their breasts hanging out?

Social change is sometimes good.

[al yunan]

Salam to all,

"Adat is the death of Adab"

"He who follows a Qawm is of that Qawm"


Masalam

[LauraS]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6f0c06ca-9...#axzz1PYcBxjP4

[~ Sabr ~]

Is the ban still there?!?!

[TrueStranger]

I guess so. Never try to understand Saudi authority's logic.

Could someone please tell them to stop fueling the imperialistic tanks that are rollings in the streets of Kabul and Baghdad. They closed the Egyptian embassy. I wish they would have done that to the Israeli or American embassy. :heated:

[Muhammad]

:sl:

I think this topic has been discussed at length and there is little benefit in allowing it to continue.

Thread closed.