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yas2010
05-23-2011, 09:23 PM
:sl:/Peace

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13264301

it is estimated that upto 8 million female foetuses have been aborted. :cry:

:wa:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-23-2011, 10:28 PM
Wa Alaaykum As'salaam


Inna lilaahi wa innah Ilaayhi raji'oon..

That is really sad subhaan'Allaah

may Allaah guide them to righteous path Aameen
Reply

Flame of Hope
05-23-2011, 11:00 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by yas2010
it is estimated that upto 8 million female foetuses have been aborted.
In another perspective one might say....8 million female foetuses prevented from being born into this world, many of them growing up as disbelievers, rejecting Allah and His Messenger and as a consequence of their wicked acts, entering Hell.

An act of mercy from Allah, the Most High, that they were spared being tested in this world.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

p.s. Of course the parents to whom they would have been children would be wicked to have wanted to abort them because they were female. Not worth coming into this world for such parents I think.
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LauraS
05-23-2011, 11:06 PM
Don't these fools realise that females are necessary to continue a species?
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CosmicPathos
05-24-2011, 12:26 AM
^^ whats your problem? its their freedom to choose what kind of kids they want.
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Lynx
05-24-2011, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Flame
:sl:



In another perspective one might say....8 million female foetuses prevented from being born into this world, many of them growing up as disbelievers, rejecting Allah and His Messenger and as a consequence of their wicked acts, entering Hell.

An act of mercy from Allah, the Most High, that they were spared being tested in this world.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

p.s. Of course the parents to whom they would have been children would be wicked to have wanted to abort them because they were female. Not worth coming into this world for such parents I think.
Why do you think God spared these potential disbelievers and not other potential disbelievers? Not very fair :( He could have spared billions of people from experiencing Hell!
Reply

جوري
05-24-2011, 12:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Why do you think God spared these potential disbelievers and not other potential disbelievers? Not very fair He could have spared billions of people from experiencing Hell!

People experience hell only because they want to, and because of what their hands offer while they live..
Life is the exception and yet they do so poorly with it of their own volition..

best,
Reply

in-the-shadows
05-24-2011, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
^^ whats your problem? its their freedom to choose what kind of kids they want.
what line of thinking is this? who gave them the right to choose? so if someone wants to abort their baby due to gender or birth defects, that's their "freedom"?! what about the rights of the child to be born? what about his/her freedom to live a life regardless of their gender or other physical capabilities? this is unislamic thinking, that it's the parents "freedom" to choose what kind of kids they want. so you're saying it's ok to abort female babies if the parents "choose" not to have them? show me where in Islam what you said is ok? this is eugenics and discrimination at it's best. screen out the "unfit", as deemed by who? you?

who are we to come in between what Allah is creating? how would you feel if your parents were like that and had chosen not to have you because they had the "freedom" to not have you? oh wait, you wouldn't even exist to feel anything, what is more unjust than that? freedom to practice your own rights is fine as long as it does not impinge upon the freedoms and rights of others. this is not freedom, this is murder. if we follow your line of thinking we would say that the arabs who used to bury their daughters alive also had the "freedom" to choose what kind of kids they want, so since it was their "freedom" they were ok? have you read the Quraan and Sunnah about this topic? it existed even at the time of the Prophet and he has spoken against it, so NO, it's not their "freedom"

here:

Allah says,

(And when the female infant (Al-Maw'udah) buried alive is questioned: For what sin was she killed) The majority have recited it as Su'ilat (she is questioned), as it is here. Al-Maw'udah is the female infant that the people of the pre-Islamic time of ignorance would bury in the dirt due to their hatred of girls. Therefore, on the Day of Judgement, the female infant will be asked what sin she committed that caused here to be murdered. This will be a means of frightening her murderer. For verily, if the one who was wronged is questioned, what does the wrongdoer (the one who is guilty of the oppression) think then `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said,

(And when the female infant (Al-Maw'udah) buried alive Su'ilat:) "This means that she will ask.'' Abu Ad-Duha made a similar statement when he said, "She will ask, meaning she will demand restitution for her blood.'' The same has been reported from As-Suddi and Qatadah. Hadiths have been reported concerning the Maw'udah. Imam Ahmad recorded from `A'ishah, who reported from Judamah bint Wahb, the sister of `Ukkashah, that she said, "I was in the presence of the Messenger of Allah when he was with some people, and he said,

(I was about to prohibit sexual relations with breast feeding women, but then I saw that the Romans and the Persians have sexual relations with their women who breast feed their children and it does not harm the children at all.) Then they asked him about interruption of sexual intercourse to prevent the male discharge from entering the womb of the woman, and he said,

(That is the minor infanticide and it is the female infant buried alive (Maw'udah) that will be questioned.)'' Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i, all recorded this Hadith as well





so there you go, choosing who is "fit" to be born is not upto us, it is Allah who decides that. there is another account of a man who had a daughter who he did not kill as an infant and she grew up to the age that she would be married and her father took her and threw her in a well and later he repented and told the Prophet PBUH about this incident and the Prophet started to cry and said harsh words to this man, that is how much he reviled and hated this action of hatred against girls and women and "choosing" to kill them. this is western liberalism, "freedoms" and is in fact backward and foolish thinking. just because the kuffar say they have "freedoms" and choose to engage in all sorts of messed up infanticide and eugenics and haram actions, and it's practiced all over the world and seems to be commonplace now, doesn't mean it's ok. our Prophet, and our Creator both hate this action, so how can you say parents have the freedom then? kindly show me some Islamic proof for your words/stance?

also to the other person saying it's good they were not born because they would be disbelievers, how do you know, maybe many of them could have become muslims better than us, they never even had a chance to live and to learn. aren't there so many reverts among us, so who knows maybe many of them could have been muslims. and in fact this is a growing problems amongst muslims too now, who have forgotten their religion due to their culture. there is no way that this can be supported in Islam. i find it appalling that muslims can ever be even slightly ok with something like this.
Reply

CosmicPathos
05-24-2011, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by in-the-shadows
what line of thinking is this? who gave them the right to choose? so if someone wants to abort their baby due to gender or birth defects, that's their "freedom"?! what about the rights of the child to be born? what about his/her freedom to live a life regardless of their gender or other physical capabilities? this is unislamic thinking, that it's the parents "freedom" to choose what kind of kids they want. so you're saying it's ok to abort female babies if the parents "choose" not to have them? show me where in Islam what you said is ok? this is eugenics and discrimination at it's best. screen out the "unfit", as deemed by who? you?

who are we to come in between what Allah is creating? how would you feel if your parents were like that and had chosen not to have you because they had the "freedom" to not have you? oh wait, you wouldn't even exist to feel anything, what is more unjust than that? freedom to practice your own rights is fine as long as it does not impinge upon the freedoms and rights of others. this is not freedom, this is murder. if we follow your line of thinking we would say that the arabs who used to bury their daughters alive also had the "freedom" to choose what kind of kids they want, so since it was their "freedom" they were ok? have you read the Quraan and Sunnah about this topic? it existed even at the time of the Prophet and he has spoken against it, so NO, it's not their "freedom"

here:

Allah says,

(And when the female infant (Al-Maw'udah) buried alive is questioned: For what sin was she killed) The majority have recited it as Su'ilat (she is questioned), as it is here. Al-Maw'udah is the female infant that the people of the pre-Islamic time of ignorance would bury in the dirt due to their hatred of girls. Therefore, on the Day of Judgement, the female infant will be asked what sin she committed that caused here to be murdered. This will be a means of frightening her murderer. For verily, if the one who was wronged is questioned, what does the wrongdoer (the one who is guilty of the oppression) think then `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said,

(And when the female infant (Al-Maw'udah) buried alive Su'ilat:) "This means that she will ask.'' Abu Ad-Duha made a similar statement when he said, "She will ask, meaning she will demand restitution for her blood.'' The same has been reported from As-Suddi and Qatadah. Hadiths have been reported concerning the Maw'udah. Imam Ahmad recorded from `A'ishah, who reported from Judamah bint Wahb, the sister of `Ukkashah, that she said, "I was in the presence of the Messenger of Allah when he was with some people, and he said,

(I was about to prohibit sexual relations with breast feeding women, but then I saw that the Romans and the Persians have sexual relations with their women who breast feed their children and it does not harm the children at all.) Then they asked him about interruption of sexual intercourse to prevent the male discharge from entering the womb of the woman, and he said,

(That is the minor infanticide and it is the female infant buried alive (Maw'udah) that will be questioned.)'' Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i, all recorded this Hadith as well





so there you go, choosing who is "fit" to be born is not upto us, it is Allah who decides that. there is another account of a man who had a daughter who he did not kill as an infant and she grew up to the age that she would be married and her father took her and threw her in a well and later he repented and told the Prophet PBUH about this incident and the Prophet started to cry and said harsh words to this man, that is how much he reviled and hated this action of hatred against girls and women and "choosing" to kill them. this is western liberalism, "freedoms" and is in fact backward and foolish thinking. just because the kuffar say they have "freedoms" and choose to engage in all sorts of messed up infanticide and eugenics and haram actions, and it's practiced all over the world and seems to be commonplace now, doesn't mean it's ok. our Prophet, and our Creator both hate this action, so how can you say parents have the freedom then? kindly show me some Islamic proof for your words/stance?

also to the other person saying it's good they were not born because they would be disbelievers, how do you know, maybe many of them could have become muslims better than us, they never even had a chance to live and to learn. aren't there so many reverts among us, so who knows maybe many of them could have been muslims. and in fact this is a growing problems amongst muslims too now, who have forgotten their religion due to their culture. there is no way that this can be supported in Islam. i find it appalling that muslims can ever be even slightly ok with something like this.
Isnt Religion also culture? How do you differentiate the two?

Of course I am not ok with abortion at all. I was playing devil's advocate. If atheists/kaafirs are ok with abortion, they MUST be ok with gender selection during abortion. But no, here the feminist atheist doctors play around with ethical principles and call it unethical to abort based on gender!
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ardianto
05-24-2011, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Isnt Religion also culture? How do you differentiate the two?

Of course I am not ok with abortion at all. I was playing devil's advocate. If atheists/kaafirs are ok with abortion, they MUST be ok with gender selection during abortion. But no, here the feminist atheist doctors play around with ethical principles and call it unethical to abort based on gender!
Is it means you don't care about female foeticide case in India just because they are non-Muslims ?.
Reply

siam
05-24-2011, 03:41 AM
I don't know a lot on the subject-----but.........
Abortion is generally considered wrong----However, there are exceptions because Islam is based on compassion and mercy.

The moment of "ensoulment" is generally either 40 days or 120 days after conception.
Though "rights" of a feotus/embryo must be respected----it is not at the expense of the mother---therefore instances when the mother's life is in danger, in cases of incest, rape, or other instances, abortion is allowed (provided it is within 120 days)........

IMO, Islam balances "rights" in a wholistic manner so that justice is not infringed upon. That is why it is important not to think of complicated issues such as abortion in simplistic terms.............

(Birth control/family planning is also permitted in Islam---though some conservative scholars may disagree)

----with regards to the argument of wether something is "God's will" or not......Assisted reproduction techniques are also issues that Islam has looked into.....
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Trumble
05-24-2011, 04:04 AM
You all seem to be discussing the symptom rather than the disease. The problem is the not the availability of abortion (to which I am also generally opposed, before mad_scientist starts off) but the economic desirability of males (worker, provider for parents) compared with females (dowry) children in some of the poorest parts of the world. Take care of the poverty and economic inequality and the selective abortion will take care of itself. You do realize, terrible as it is, that if there were no abortion many of these girls would just be left abandoned after birth, don't you?
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CosmicPathos
05-24-2011, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Is it means you don't care about female foeticide case in India just because they are non-Muslims ?.
No, I do not care about the sensationalism by adding "female" to foeticide. I care about foeticide, whether male or female. I dont need further qualifiers to get a sensational high in post-modern feminist world by just arguing against high rates of female foeticide and not foeticide itself! What if, lets believe for a moment, more male fetuses were being aborted, would we still get this hoop-la of it being unethical? I doubt so.
Reply

Ramadhan
05-24-2011, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
^^ whats your problem? its their freedom to choose what kind of kids they want.

LOL. I get what you are saying, akhi.

Truly these assorted atheists are hypocrites and are not even consistent with their belief. They are just so random.
Reply

Trumble
05-24-2011, 05:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
No, I do not care about the sensationalism by adding "female" to foeticide. I care about foeticide, whether male or female. I dont need further qualifiers to get a sensational high in post-modern feminist world by just arguing against high rates of female foeticide and not foeticide itself! What if, lets believe for a moment, more male fetuses were being aborted, would we still get this hoop-la of it being unethical? I doubt so.
Please read my previous post, particularly the last sentence. There is is nothing sensationalist about it, nor anything to do with atheists or feminists (indeed quite the opposite, in the latter case). These fetuses are being aborted because they are female. That is whole point of the story, not that 'abortion is going on'. Were, for some reason, it male babies that were seen as less desirable or unwanted the 'hoop-la' would be exactly the same.
Reply

Ramadhan
05-24-2011, 05:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You all seem to be discussing the symptom rather than the disease. The problem is the not the availability of abortion (to which I am also generally opposed, before mad_scientist starts off) but the economic desirability of males (worker, provider for parents) compared with females (dowry) children in some of the poorest parts of the world. Take care of the poverty and economic inequality and the selective abortion will take care of itself. You do realize, terrible as it is, that if there were no abortion many of these girls would just be left abandoned after birth, don't you?
Many if not most female foeticides are performed in China, not exactly the poorest parts of the world (in fact, china will overtake the US as the #1 economy in less than a decade).
It is caused by the one child policy, and the chinese culture (buddhism play a huge part in chinese psyche, mind you) which places male as more superior than female, forcing the parents to resort to female foeticide when they find out through USG scan that their firstborn is female.

If I'm not mistaken, china is the only country where there are currently more males born than females.
Reply

in-the-shadows
05-24-2011, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Isnt Religion also culture? How do you differentiate the two?

Of course I am not ok with abortion at all. I was playing devil's advocate. If atheists/kaafirs are ok with abortion, they MUST be ok with gender selection during abortion. But no, here the feminist atheist doctors play around with ethical principles and call it unethical to abort based on gender!
no religion is not culture, there can be cultural practices which have nothing to do with religion. of course, MOST of culture is in fact religion (or a mix of many religions), but the sad thing is that culture nowadays, is not derived from the RIGHT religion (Islam) and is too mixed in with kaafir religions. for example, look at countries with large populations of muslims who technically should have a culture which is mostly practices derived from Islam and then some things which have nothing to do with Islam i guess, like lets say how they choose to irrigate their plants, that can be a cultural difference as well, but i digress, but nowadays what you have instead is societies which have cultures which are messed up versions of 10 different religions together. like muslims in southeast asia will discriminate against girls (hence the foeticide), dark-skinned individuals, those of a "lower caste", people with disabilities, of a certain socioeconomic class, but those are all hindu practices (dowries, "untouchables", castes, wedding rituals etc.), which have been picked up by muslims, and they are a part of the culture, but they have nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. same with muslims in the west or even countries like egypt etc. they have picked up kaafir practices.

since culture is something which is so prone to mixing and fabrications, it's so dynamic, anyone can start a new cultural practice, hence we cannot say religion IS culture, because as we know as muslims, religion is not something which is up for change, hence it cannot be equated to culture itself which IS so prone to change. i get what you are saying though, but they are two different distinct entities. religion is a huge part of culture, but culture has a lot in it that has nothing to do with religion, especially the right religion, which is Islam. hence we cannot and should not allow culture to override our Islam because Islam is a way of life in itself and as our Allah has said, He has "completed" our religion for us. so we should not allow some cultural practices which are derived from other religions, or cultural practices which are not influenced by religion (seemingly "harmless" practices) to rule over our Islam because that is just opening the door wide open to bidaah. if culture denies us something halal, we should go against the culture, because if it's saying something that is halal is wrong, then the culture is unIslamic and we would be wrong to follow it. and vice versa of course, which is why foeticide is wrong even though culture says it's ok.

secondly, i don't know if i agree with this view that if you are a person who is pro-abortion, that you should also be pro-female infanticide. that is to say that if you are evil, you must be evil to the highest degree. a pro-abortion person, who is Islamically incorrect by virtue of their stance, is more correct when compared to someone who is a pro-abortion AND pro-female infanticide lunatic. two wrongs don't make a right. it's difficult to say what is ethical and what is not, but that is the point, athiests and kuffar are just confused about their own ethics and can't be consistent, but consistency can't be expected from someone who rejects their own Creator. don't even get me started on how ironic and contradictory most of their "ethics" are. but i don't expect much from them, none of us should. obviously there has to be a chemical imbalance there for you to reject the Almighty. it's the muslims i have a problem with who will engage in this sort of stuff and are just as confused as the kaafirs. may Allah guide them.

also, regarding your second post, are you saying that the only reason people are arguing against female foeticide is due to the fact that they are feminists? you seem to be suggesting that but you forget that 1) a male foeticide would probably never occur because i don't think there is any culture in which men are considered a liability and 2) female foeticide is something which has existed for centuries, well before any modern-world feminist movement hence it's not simply a new concern. of course no type of foeticide is correct, but if you see female foeticide being practiced much more prevalently, you should, as a muslim, have a problem with it if the Prophet did. no room for arguments there, if it is a concern which has been exclusively recognized and addressed by Allah and His Prophet, we should also recognize it as a huge problem and speak up against it. you can be against foeticide in general and then also against female foeticide because both are related but are separate concerns.
Reply

Ramadhan
05-24-2011, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Please read my previous post. There is is nothing sensationalist about it, nor anything to do with atheists or feminists (indeed quite the opposite, in the latter case). These fetuses are being aborted because they are female. That is whole point of the story. Were, for some reason, it male babies that were seen as less desirable or unwanted the 'hoop-la' would be exactly the same.
Mad_scientist was responding to the flow of discussion stemming from this:
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Don't these fools realise that females are necessary to continue a species?
Clearly, LauraS was emphasizing the female status of the babies being aborted.
Reply

Ramadhan
05-24-2011, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by in-the-shadows
no religion is not culture, there can be cultural practices which have nothing to do with religion. of course, MOST of culture is in fact religion (or a mix of many religions), but the sad thing is that culture nowadays, is not derived from the RIGHT religion (Islam) and is too mixed in with kaafir religions. for example, look at countries with large populations of muslims who technically should have a culture which is mostly practices derived from Islam and then some things which have nothing to do with Islam i guess, like lets say how they choose to irrigate their plants, that can be a cultural difference as well, but i digress, but nowadays what you have instead is societies which have cultures which are messed up versions of 10 different religions together. like muslims in southeast asia will discriminate against girls (hence the foeticide), dark-skinned individuals, those of a "lower caste", people with disabilities, of a certain socioeconomic class, but those are all hindu practices (dowries, "untouchables", castes, wedding rituals etc.), which have been picked up by muslims, and they are a part of the culture, but they have nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. same with muslims in the west or even countries like egypt etc. they have picked up kaafir practices. since culture is something which is so prone to mixing and fabrications, it's so dynamic, anyone can start a new cultural practice, hence we cannot say religion IS culture, because as we know as muslims, religion is not something which is up for change, hence it cannot be equated to culture itself which IS so prone to change. i get what you are saying though, but they are two different distinct entities. religion is a huge part of culture, but culture has a lot in it that has nothing to do with religion, especially the right religion, which is Islam. hence we cannot and should not allow culture to override our Islam because Islam is a way of life in itself and as our Allah has said, He has "completed" our religion for us. so we should not allow some cultural practices which are derived from other religions, or cultural practices which are not influenced by religion (seemingly "harmless" practices) to rule over our Islam because that is just opening the door wide open to bidaah. if culture denies us something halal, we should go against the culture, because if it's saying something that is halal is wrong, then the culture is unIslamic and we would be wrong to follow it. and vice versa of course, which is why foeticide is wrong even though culture says it's ok. secondly, i don't know if i agree with this view that if you are a person who is pro-abortion, that you should also be pro-female infanticide. that is to say that if you are evil, you must be evil to the highest degree. a pro-abortion person, who is Islamically incorrect by virtue of their stance, is more correct when compared to someone who is a pro-abortion AND pro-female infanticide lunatic. two wrongs don't make a right. it's difficult to say what is ethical and what is not, but that is the point, athiests and kuffar are just confused about their own ethics and can't be consistent, but consistency can't be expected from someone who rejects their own Creator. don't even get me started on how ironic and contradictory most of their "ethics" are. but i don't expect much from them, none of us should. obviously there has to be a chemical imbalance there for you to reject the Almighty. it's the muslims i have a problem with who will engage in this sort of stuff and are just as confused as the kaafirs. may Allah guide them. also, regarding your second post, are you saying that the only reason people are arguing against female foeticide is due to the fact that they are feminists? you seem to be suggesting that but you forget that 1) a male foeticide would probably never occur because i don't think there is any culture in which men are considered a liability and 2) female foeticide is something which has existed for centuries, well before any modern-world feminist movement hence it's not simply a new concern. of course no type of foeticide is correct, but if you see female foeticide being practiced much more prevalently, you should, as a muslim, have a problem with it if the Prophet did. no room for arguments there, if it is a concern which has been exclusively recognized and addressed by Allah and His Prophet, we should also recognize it as a huge problem and speak up against it. you can be against foeticide in general and then also against female foeticide because both are related but are separate concerns.


:sl:
brother, Mad_scientist agrees with all your points. He made that sarcastic devil's advocate point to show how hypocritical the atheists in this forums are. If only you read all the previous posts of these atheists, then you will understand.
Reply

CosmicPathos
05-24-2011, 05:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by in-the-shadows
no religion is not culture, there can be cultural practices which have nothing to do with religion. of course, MOST of culture is in fact religion (or a mix of many religions), but the sad thing is that culture nowadays, is not derived from the RIGHT religion (Islam) and is too mixed in with kaafir religions. for example, look at countries with large populations of muslims who technically should have a culture which is mostly practices derived from Islam and then some things which have nothing to do with Islam i guess, like lets say how they choose to irrigate their plants, that can be a cultural difference as well, but i digress, but nowadays what you have instead is societies which have cultures which are messed up versions of 10 different religions together. like muslims in southeast asia will discriminate against girls (hence the foeticide), dark-skinned individuals, those of a "lower caste", people with disabilities, of a certain socioeconomic class, but those are all hindu practices (dowries, "untouchables", castes, wedding rituals etc.), which have been picked up by muslims, and they are a part of the culture, but they have nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. same with muslims in the west or even countries like egypt etc. they have picked up kaafir practices.

since culture is something which is so prone to mixing and fabrications, it's so dynamic, anyone can start a new cultural practice, hence we cannot say religion IS culture, because as we know as muslims, religion is not something which is up for change, hence it cannot be equated to culture itself which IS so prone to change. i get what you are saying though, but they are two different distinct entities. religion is a huge part of culture, but culture has a lot in it that has nothing to do with religion, especially the right religion, which is Islam. hence we cannot and should not allow culture to override our Islam because Islam is a way of life in itself and as our Allah has said, He has "completed" our religion for us. so we should not allow some cultural practices which are derived from other religions, or cultural practices which are not influenced by religion (seemingly "harmless" practices) to rule over our Islam because that is just opening the door wide open to bidaah. if culture denies us something halal, we should go against the culture, because if it's saying something that is halal is wrong, then the culture is unIslamic and we would be wrong to follow it. and vice versa of course, which is why foeticide is wrong even though culture says it's ok.

secondly, i don't know if i agree with this view that if you are a person who is pro-abortion, that you should also be pro-female infanticide. that is to say that if you are evil, you must be evil to the highest degree. a pro-abortion person, who is Islamically incorrect by virtue of their stance, is more correct when compared to someone who is a pro-abortion AND pro-female infanticide lunatic. two wrongs don't make a right. it's difficult to say what is ethical and what is not, but that is the point, athiests and kuffar are just confused about their own ethics and can't be consistent, but consistency can't be expected from someone who rejects their own Creator. don't even get me started on how ironic and contradictory most of their "ethics" are. but i don't expect much from them, none of us should. obviously there has to be a chemical imbalance there for you to reject the Almighty. it's the muslims i have a problem with who will engage in this sort of stuff and are just as confused as the kaafirs. may Allah guide them.

also, regarding your second post, are you saying that the only reason people are arguing against female foeticide is due to the fact that they are feminists? you seem to be suggesting that but you forget that 1) a male foeticide would probably never occur because i don't think there is any culture in which men are considered a liability and 2) female foeticide is something which has existed for centuries, well before any modern-world feminist movement hence it's not simply a new concern. of course no type of foeticide is correct, but if you see female foeticide being practiced much more prevalently, you should, as a muslim, have a problem with it if the Prophet did. no room for arguments there, if it is a concern which has been exclusively recognized and addressed by Allah and His Prophet, we should also recognize it as a huge problem and speak up against it. you can be against foeticide in general and then also against female foeticide because both are related but are separate concerns.
Just because there are no cultures that you are aware of in which males are not a liability does not mean such a thing does not occur. Maybe it occurs on a far away planet inhabited by a species similar to us?

I never suggested that female foeticide is a issue only after the feminist movement. What I said was that feminist oriented among medical ethicists find it is FINE for mothers to abort because a fetus is dependent on mother and hence mother has a say in aborting it or not but then at the same time they are against selective abortion of female fetuses on the basis that it is undesirable by parents. I smell hypocrisy here. Dictating parents what they should do while allowing them to abort fetuses in the first place!

So as a Muslim, I am not concerned with abortion of just female fetuses. I am concerned with abortion itself. Whether it is more in male fetuses or female fetuses, I do not care because death of 10 female fetuses is no different from death of 1 male fetus or death of 1 female fetus is no different from death of 10 male fetuses. Regarding Quran's reference to burial of daughters alive, mind you, they were not fetuses. Secondly, not all Arabs practiced it. Thirdly, its a specific ruling which applies to Arabs in the sense that not all cultures "bury their daughters alive." they kill by different means.

Regarding culture, I think it is very shallow to say that all those unethical practices among South East Asian Muslims are from Hinduism. Hinduism is not an immoral religion. Yes, those caste things are there but then there are many many Hindus who disagree for centuries with those parts of their religious scriptures.

Can you tell/show me any Muslim who is not effected by his culture? A white revert to Islam interprets some things in Islam according to his culture/background/way of thinking. A brown Muslim interprets some things in Islam according to his background. So does a black Muslim. There is no vacuum in which all are the same. Such a utopian idealistic reality never existed, not even during Prophet's time. Even Sahaaba (as) differed hugely with each other on many issues because of their different sub-cultures, etiquette, ways of thinking, education level etc.
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in-the-shadows
05-24-2011, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar



:sl:
brother, Mad_scientist agrees with all your points. He made that sarcastic devil's advocate point to show how hypocritical the atheists in this forums are. If only you read all the previous posts of these atheists, then you will understand.
wsalam,

i see, i did not pick up on the sarcasm. i see now that it was just to make the kaafirs see their contradictory beliefs. thanks for clarifying, jazakAllah.
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al yunan
05-24-2011, 05:51 AM
Salam to all,

After reading these posts one can only conclude how alien is the sixth principle of Iman to most.
To all Muslims please read the story of Umar r.a and his daughter he buried as it may help Inshallah comprehend the above.
Another observation on a religiously neutral point thus including all; the ease with which the word "cide" (murder) is used leaves any one older pessimistic about the future.
Cynicism, ignorance of realities and semantically used euphemisms won't consciously absolve none but those who never had a heart to start with.

May Allah S.W.T protects us from this world's Thulum.
Masalam
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in-the-shadows
05-24-2011, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Just because there are no cultures that you are aware of in which males are not a liability does not mean such a thing does not occur. Maybe it occurs on a far away planet inhabited by a species similar to us?

I never suggested that female foeticide is a issue only after the feminist movement. What I said was that feminist oriented among medical ethicists find it is FINE for mothers to abort because a fetus is dependent on mother and hence mother has a say in aborting it or not but then at the same time they are against selective abortion of female fetuses on the basis that it is undesirable by parents. I smell hypocrisy here. Dictating parents what they should do while allowing them to abort fetuses in the first place!

So as a Muslim, I am not concerned with abortion of just female fetuses. I am concerned with abortion itself. Whether it is more in male fetuses or female fetuses, I do not care because death of 10 female fetuses is no different from death of 1 male fetus or death of 1 female fetus is no different from death of 10 male fetuses. Regarding Quran's reference to burial of daughters alive, mind you, they were not fetuses. Secondly, not all Arabs practiced it. Thirdly, its a specific ruling which applies to Arabs in the sense that not all cultures "bury their daughters alive." they kill by different means.

Regarding culture, I think it is very shallow to say that all those unethical practices among South East Asian Muslims are from Hinduism. Hinduism is not an immoral religion. Yes, those caste things are there but then there are many many Hindus who disagree for centuries with those parts of their religious scriptures.

Can you tell/show me any Muslim who is not effected by his culture? A white revert to Islam interprets some things in Islam according to his culture/background/way of thinking. A brown Muslim interprets some things in Islam according to his background. So does a black Muslim. There is no vacuum in which all are the same. Such a utopian idealistic reality never existed, not even during Prophet's time. Even Sahaaba (as) differed hugely with each other on many issues because of their different sub-cultures, etiquette, ways of thinking, education level etc.
yes, i do agree, maybe somewhere, somehow, there may be a culture in which males are a liability and male killings could occur, it's happened in the past, the Pharoah's slayings of the male offspring of the Isrealites. perhaps sometime in the future men will be seen as a liability and there may be a male foeticide. sure. right now, in any of the prevalent cultures in the world? no, not by a long shot.

yes it is hypocricy to say, abort your baby sure, if you don't want it, but don't JUST abort because it is a girl. i agree that that is wrong, i never disagreed to that. and your views on not discriminating between the gender of the baby when describing foeticide is also noble and everything, it's great that you and others things foeticide in general is wrong and should be spoken against, but lets say, there is genocide occurring all over the world, and then someone says, we should speak up against the genocide in this country especially because the situation there is dire. would you say no, i am against genocide in general, but i won't say this genocide in particular is worthy of special attention? this is the same thing. i get that killing babies in general is wrong, but it's a reality that more female babies are being killed, so in my opinion at least we do need to say, abortion is haram and wrong, what's even worse is the higher proportion of baby girls killed because if it is a huge realistic concern, we do need to address it separately and i see nothing immoral about it so long as you recognize you are against abortion in general, and then you can cite this as an example of the evil effects of abortion.

yes it was babies being buried alive, they had no ultrasound technology at the time or maybe they would perhaps practice foeticide also, not all arabs did it, agreed and i don't understand what you mean it is a ruling for arabs specifically, point is that killing of females in particular is the issue, not the way in which it was done. yes, arabs used to bury, so that is what is mentioned in the Quraan, but Allah would hold all those accountable who killed their girls in particular. both male and female infanticide is denounced in our religion, male infanticide is mentioned much more than female infanticide (as far as i know) in the Quraan, but male foeticide is not being practiced at a large scale right now, female foeticide is.

it is not shallow to say those unethical practices are from Hinduism because Islam says Hinduism is wrong, so i will not agree with you when you say it is not an immoral religion. define an immoral and a moral religion for me? it is a religion which has a lot of wrong, and yes, immoral practices, immoral not based on my own understanding of morals which i have invented, no, but rather immoral as determined by Islam. Islam says it is immoral that we have castes, because Allah creates us all equal. and are you really going to argue that so many of the wrong practices among people in SE asia are not from hinduism? isn't it Hinduism which has garba and pooja and dance and singing as a huge part of their religion, and then muslims have incorporated these practices into their culture, and yes it's all wrong and immoral and it all stems from hinduism. it's hindu women who reveal their body and it's hindu people who mix freely amongst each other, use of amulets, putting religious scriptures on walls, all of these are practices derived from hinduism, and because muslims will see hindus doing these things they will want to copy them. if Hindus disagree with their own religion, great, they should see the sense in Islam and convert in that case.

sure there are no muslims who are absolutely free of culturalism and are not at all affected by it. no argument to that. but what i am saying is that we should try our best to not give culture so much importance that it becomes our way of life as opposed to Islam. that is all i'm arguing. culture can have an influence, sure, it's impossible for it not to have an effect, but we should try to minimize that effect especially if that effect is unIslamic.
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Trumble
05-24-2011, 07:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Many if not most female foeticides are performed in China, not exactly the poorest parts of the world (in fact, china will overtake the US as the #1 economy in less than a decade).
Neither is India, according to that measure. Both countries have far bigger populations than the US or, indeed, anywhere else either than each other. Unfortunately, the size of the economy measured by country is no measure of the distribution and extent of wealth, and the poorest Chinese are little wealthier than the poorest Indians.

It is caused by the one child policy, and the chinese culture (buddhism play a huge part in chinese psyche, mind you) which places male as more superior than female, forcing the parents to resort to female foeticide when they find out through USG scan that their firstborn is female.
Regarding the one child policy, probably. You will find, I think the relevant parts of the 'Chinese psyche' were established long before Buddhism reached it, apart from those instilled by Maoism . If you do, though, actually have anything sensible to say that might link the two, mind you , please feel free to produce it.
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CosmicPathos
05-24-2011, 09:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by in-the-shadows
isn't it Hinduism which has garba and pooja and dance and singing as a huge part of their religion, and then muslims have incorporated these practices into their culture, and yes it's all wrong and immoral and it all stems from hinduism. it's hindu women who reveal their body and it's hindu people who mix freely amongst each other, use of amulets, putting religious scriptures on walls, all of these are practices derived from hinduism, and because muslims will see hindus doing these things they will want to copy them. if Hindus disagree with their own religion, great, they should see the sense in Islam and convert in that case.
I have to say that many Muslim women are also very competitive in trying to show who can show the max body with min clothes.

Yes, I will speak against female foeticide. But not when I realize that the person next to me who is raising this voice is a hypocrite: the one who allows abortion but then calls female foeticide unethical. I will not stand by this person and never join in hands in a "common cause." It is not a common cause.

w salam
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Ramadhan
05-24-2011, 10:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Neither is India, according to that measure. Both countries have far bigger populations than the US or, indeed, anywhere else either than each other. Unfortunately, the size of the economy measured by country is no measure of the distribution and extent of wealth, and the poorest Chinese are little wealthier than the poorest Indians.
You are now trying to obscure the fallacy of your argument. You argued that female foeticide is caused by poverty and hence the way to combat and eradicate female foeticide is by developing the economy. And I argued back that that is not the case, case in example china who is more economically developing than most countries, and yet has high proportion of female foeticide. If it were caused by poverty, certainly female foeticides would have been found a lot higher in sub sharan africa, carribean and the poorest latin american countries, but such cases are not found in those areas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortionA 2005 study estimated that over 90 million females were "missing" from the expected population in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan alone, and suggested that sex-selective abortion plays a role in this deficit.[2][3] India's 2011 census shows a serious decline in the number of girls under the age of seven - activists fear eight million female fetuses may have been aborted between 2001 and 2011. [4] Some research suggests that culture plays a larger role than economic conditions in gender preference and sex-selective abortion, because such deviations in sex ratios do not exist in sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean.[2]

Another example: female infanticides were so widespread among the greeks in 200 BC, who actually was the most advanced society at that time, that less in 1% of 6,000 families in Delphi has daughter.http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
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GuestFellow
05-24-2011, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
^^ whats your problem? its their freedom to choose what kind of kids they want.
:sl:

I think some members have misunderstood your post. :/
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Perseveranze
05-24-2011, 03:17 PM
Pre-Islam they didn't have technology to do abortions, when the child came out female she'd be taken straight to the burial place.

All these female foeticide's that are aborted will on the day of judgement ask questions.

And when the girl-child that was buried alive is asked, For what crime she was killed; [Quran 81:8-9]

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selsebil
05-24-2011, 03:20 PM
It's just like before Islam "jahiliyyat" period.
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Trumble
05-24-2011, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

You are now trying to obscure the fallacy of your argument. You argued that female foeticide is caused by poverty and hence the way to combat and eradicate female foeticide is by developing the economy. And I argued back that that is not the case, case in example china who is more economically developing than most countries, and yet has high proportion of female foeticide. If it were caused by poverty, certainly female foeticides would have been found a lot higher in sub sharan africa, carribean and the poorest latin american countries, but such cases are not found in those areas
I'm am doing no such thing. You, however, are creating the inevitable naidamar (Ramadhan? - seems you have joined the name-change club) strawman in place of anything resembling an argument. Which is rather odd as I don't actually think we disagree, except on your supposed economic disparity between China and India. That is easily exposed as nonsense, as can be seen here. By the same ranking, GDP, India comes in at a positively poverty stricken tenth between Canada and Russia. But, as I said, as there are so many people, the poorest are very poor indeed. As they are in China. Moving on;

There is no 'fallacy' of (or in) my argument even the facts were wrong (go look the word up if you don't know what it means) - which they aren't. If you look again you will see that I suggested female foeticide was the result not of 'poverty', but of inequality, specifically the difference in perceived economic desirability between male children and female children. Obviously poverty is involved to some extent, as for those affluent enough there would not be an issue at all, but the primary issue is cultural, not economic.
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yas2010
05-24-2011, 08:02 PM
It's just like before Islam "jahiliyyat" period.


Its seems so true. Pre-Islam it is well noted that female children were buried alive.

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LauraS
05-24-2011, 08:45 PM
madscientist- I suggest you read the article again so you actually understand what this thread is about. My response had nothing to do with being a feminist reaction the girls being aborted as opposed to males it's the fact that girls are being aborted specifically because girls are not considered as worthwhile as boys. I was pointing out that if they all aborted their girls the species couldn't continue anyway! And I don't know why you had to bring atheists into the argument, what had that got to do anything? Many many atheists don't agree with abortion full stop.
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Trumble
05-25-2011, 07:19 AM
Never mind .
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Abu Zainab
05-25-2011, 08:57 AM
This horrible and cruel culture of dowry should be dealt with....and then like Trumble said this problem will be solved by itself. The men have a greater role to play. They should outright refuse to take dowry even if they have to go against their parents.
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جوري
05-25-2011, 10:48 AM
I don't understand this thing about dowry, shouldn't it be the other way around? what do men bring into these types of marriages anyway- have they no obligations outside of 'family name'?
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Ramadhan
05-25-2011, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't understand this thing about dowry, shouldn't it be the other way around? what do men bring into these types of marriages anyway- have they no obligations outside of 'family name'?

In some cultures, it is the women who have to "buy" the groom.
People of West Sumatra (Padang) in Indonesia is matrilineal, and the bride family will give dowry to the groom family, which is quite starnge because the people of Padang are also among the most Islamically-inclined people in Indonesia.
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Riana17
05-25-2011, 12:04 PM
there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case.
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Riana17
05-25-2011, 12:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by andrea17
there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case.
I meant
"there must be FITRA that killing is not allowed in any case (in this article)"
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ardianto
05-25-2011, 12:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan


In some cultures, it is the women who have to "buy" the groom.
People of West Sumatra (Padang) in Indonesia is matrilineal, and the bride family will give dowry to the groom family, which is quite starnge because the people of Padang are also among the most Islamically-inclined people in Indonesia.
"Buy the groom" is not the right word to describe marriage procession in Minang ethnic (Padang is their capital city)

Minang people are known as matrilineal people that mothers are "the leaders". Different than in Patrilineal society which the groom (and his family) come to bride home and ask the bride parents "May I marry your daughter". In Minang, the bride family come to the groom home and ask him "Will you marry our daughter". Then the bride family give Mahar (as a gift to the new member in the family) to the groom, but not in fantastic amount.

But from many stories that I have heard, in India, many groom families ask Dowry in fantastic amount. It's look like a payment of buying groom from the groom families.

There is no any case which a Minang husband kill or torture his wife because Mahar. But in India, there are many case the husband (or his family) torture or kill the wife because the wife family can't afford to pay Dowry.
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Rhubarb Tart
05-25-2011, 01:04 PM
Salam

Well at least these babies don’t have to look forward to acid attack or being beaten. :(
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Muhaba
05-25-2011, 01:22 PM
well they all go to heaven since tehy died before becoming adults, so although it is terrible for ppl to be doing abortions, esp because the fetus is a girl, its good for the girls as they don't have to worry about going to hell, etc.
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GuestFellow
05-25-2011, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't understand this thing about dowry, shouldn't it be the other way around? what do men bring into these types of marriages anyway- have they no obligations outside of 'family name'?
Salaam,

I don't understand it either and I'm exposed to this sort of culture...
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Ansariyah
05-25-2011, 02:10 PM
Alhamdulilah that we are Muslims.

This without a doubt is murderous & barbaric. I cant believe it that these people aren't educated about the simple fact that its a female who can give birth to a son. This is a form of ethnic cleansing, done by its own kind. Truly insane.
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KAding
05-25-2011, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam,

I don't understand it either and I'm exposed to this sort of culture...
I assume it has all to do with economic productivity. Traditionally, most women don't work (on a professional basis at least), so they don't earn any income for the family.

Of course, this completely ignores all the work they do in the household in general (in particular regarding any children). I suppose that just shows how little unpaid work is appreciated, even in pre-capitalist traditions ;).
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CosmicPathos
05-26-2011, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
madscientist- I suggest you read the article again so you actually understand what this thread is about. My response had nothing to do with being a feminist reaction the girls being aborted as opposed to males it's the fact that girls are being aborted specifically because girls are not considered as worthwhile as boys. I was pointing out that if they all aborted their girls the species couldn't continue anyway! And I don't know why you had to bring atheists into the argument, what had that got to do anything? Many many atheists don't agree with abortion full stop.
If it is rational to abort fetuses, it also rational to abort based on one's preference for gender of the baby. If that is true, then well too bad for female fetuses.
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ardianto
05-26-2011, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
If it is rational to abort fetuses, it also rational to abort based on one's preference for gender of the baby. If that is true, then well too bad for female fetuses.
I think you assume if all non-Muslims support abortion.
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Ramadhan
05-26-2011, 05:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
I think you assume if all non-Muslims support abortion.
I think br. Mad scientist was responding to the atheists/agnostics in this forum, and not addressing non-muslims in general.
He is actually exposing how hypocritical they are, how they support freedom of abortion, but got mad when it is the female foetus being aborted.
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Amat Allah
05-26-2011, 05:16 AM
Inna lillah wa inna ilayhi rajioon...laa hawla wa laa qowata illa bellah.
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ardianto
05-26-2011, 08:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I think br. Mad scientist was responding to the atheists/agnostics in this forum, and not addressing non-muslims in general.
He is actually exposing how hypocritical they are, how they support freedom of abortion, but got mad when it is the female foetus being aborted.
Okay, okay, I understand.
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LauraS
05-26-2011, 11:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
If it is rational to abort fetuses, it also rational to abort based on one's preference for gender of the baby. If that is true, then well too bad for female fetuses.
Where did I actualy state I support abortion though? You can't assume all atheists agree with abortion and point out where the large numbers of atheists are on this thread that are supporting abortion?

Surely you don't agree with aborting babies because of their gender? This thread is about that topic and not abortion in general.

Well, if it's too bad for the female foetuses then that's too bad for the men who suddenly find there are few women and they have to look after their own houses.
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Predator
05-26-2011, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
.

Well, if it's too bad for the female foetuses then that's too bad for the men who suddenly find there are few women and they have to look after their own houses.

Or they will become Gays as the Minister pointed out,LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8oNKfAv8P0
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Perseveranze
05-26-2011, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Where did I actualy state I support abortion though? You can't assume all atheists agree with abortion and point out where the large numbers of atheists are on this thread that are supporting abortion?

Surely you don't agree with aborting babies because of their gender? This thread is about that topic and not abortion in general.

Well, if it's too bad for the female foetuses then that's too bad for the men who suddenly find there are few women and they have to look after their own houses.
I really think you misunderstood the guy lol. Why would he agree about aborting babies, you can't be a muslim if you did.

He was just showing hypocrisy from Athiests or people who claim "everyone has the freedom to choose". Their complaining about it now, but what happened to their "proud" arguement about freedom of choice? Can't a women "choose" whether she wants a child or not, what has it got to do with anyone else if she wants to abort babies based on gender?

That's the Athiest, regardless of whether you say some don't support abortion, there is definitly hypocrisy there. Maybe it might help them understand why religion restricts man in making "certain free choices".
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GuestFellow
05-26-2011, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Or they will become Gays as the Minister pointed out,LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8oNKfAv8P0
Salaam,

That is bizarre...lol. O_O
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Trumble
05-26-2011, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
That's the Athiest, regardless of whether you say some don't support abortion, there is definitly hypocrisy there. Maybe it might help them understand why religion restricts man in making "certain free choices".
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
He is actually exposing how hypocritical they are, how they support freedom of abortion, but got mad when it is the female foetus being aborted.
Like who? Who are 'they'?


This puerile atheist = boogey-man nonsense is getting ridiculous. Of course some don't support abortion, or the 'right to choose' (they are not the same thing); a great many don't. Abortion is one of the big moral issues whatever religion you happen to have, or none.. the only difference is atheists actually have to think about it for themselves.

If you think anyone posting here is being a hypocrite, explain why and give them the chance to defend themselves as opposed to unjustfiable generalizations. Or be prepared to bite your lip when those elsewhere condemn all muslims as approving the actions of these morons, that is unless you wish to be hypocrites yourselves.

What passes for argument here is a joke. Is, for example, the choice between whether or not to abort a pregnancy that is the result of rape really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus is female rather than male? Or that to abort a fetus that will grow into a severely disabled child really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus will grow into a brunette and not a blonde? I'm asking for a yes or a no to that question only. If you really think yes, maybe you just might want to reflect on how easy it is sitting in your armchairs to make life-changing decisions on behalf of other people.
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جوري
05-26-2011, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
choice between whether or not to abort a pregnancy that is the result of rape really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus is female rather than male?

chance of pregnancy after a rape is pretty slim actually, not sure you can use that to make a point given the disparity.. be that as it may I don't think anyone here is advocating either infanticide or abortions, they're merely pointing out the hypocrisy of what makes one choice reasonably acceptable to those who point the fingers while the other not?

The Question comes to the level of maturity of those individuals who answer the question quite casually.. I had a friend who had a couple of abortion at 17 yrs of age, who now in her early thirties undergoing fertility treatments each round in the thousands.. I often marvel at how people can throw away life that is created YES created in their wombs when others are struggling to have a child simply because well whatever reason they deem plausible.. but it is an interesting twist of fate for a woman to be on both ends of the spectrum. Perhaps if everyone got to experience both the desire to not have and the desire to have would it balance out their reasoning a bit or at least the decisions preceding the act.

Is there room for personal opinion? I think the whole thing is pretty disgusting actually..
If they're not wanted in India or china or by some promiscuous teenager wherever, there are many childless couples in the world who would love to sponsor or adopt such children...

my two cents.
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LauraS
05-26-2011, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Like who? Who are 'they'?


This puerile atheist = boogey-man nonsense is getting ridiculous. Of course some don't support abortion, or the 'right to choose' (they are not the same thing); a great many don't. Abortion is one of the big moral issues whatever religion you happen to have, or none.. the only difference is atheists actually have to think about it for themselves.

If you think anyone posting here is being a hypocrite, explain why and give them the chance to defend themselves as opposed to unjustfiable generalizations. Or be prepared to bite your lip when those elsewhere condemn all muslims as approving the actions of these morons, that is unless you wish to be hypocrites yourselves.
Exactly the point I'm making, I don't know who these atheists are who are supporting abortions on this thread? I agree with the last comment too.
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Perseveranze
05-26-2011, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Like who? Who are 'they'?


This puerile atheist = boogey-man nonsense is getting ridiculous. Of course some don't support abortion, or the 'right to choose' (they are not the same thing); a great many don't. Abortion is one of the big moral issues whatever religion you happen to have, or none.. the only difference is atheists actually have to think about it for themselves.

If you think anyone posting here is being a hypocrite, explain why and give them the chance to defend themselves as opposed to unjustfiable generalizations. Or be prepared to bite your lip when those elsewhere condemn all muslims as approving the actions of these morons, that is unless you wish to be hypocrites yourselves.

What passes for argument here is a joke. Is, for example, the choice between whether or not to abort a pregnancy that is the result of rape really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus is female rather than male? Or that to abort a fetus that will grow into a severely disabled child really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus will grow into a brunette and not a blonde? I'm asking for a yes or a no to that question only. If you really think yes, maybe you just might want to reflect on how easy it is sitting in your armchairs to make life-changing decisions on behalf of other people.
Right, you clearly got the wrong idea.

Your ideology, or shall I say Athiests ideology is about promoting freedom of choice I assume? So there is hypocrisy against their ideology that a person has to be forced to decide whether to have an abortion or not. Yet in "other" choices they are free to do as they like, as it's their choice. Same with suicide, your ideology is that a person is free to "choose" whether they want to end their life.

If that is not the case, then clearly there isn't freedom of choice OR there's plain hypocrisy.

With your example, Islam's ideology completly clashes against what those 4 people did. So there is no hypocrisy for any Muslim that follows Islam properly, we condemn such actions as it promotes violence.

Think :p
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سيف الله
05-26-2011, 10:07 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Like who? Who are 'they'?


This puerile atheist = boogey-man nonsense is getting ridiculous. Of course some don't support abortion, or the 'right to choose' (they are not the same thing); a great many don't. Abortion is one of the big moral issues whatever religion you happen to have, or none.. the only difference is atheists actually have to think about it for themselves.

If you think anyone posting here is being a hypocrite, explain why and give them the chance to defend themselves as opposed to unjustfiable generalizations. Or be prepared to bite your lip when those elsewhere condemn all muslims as approving the actions of these morons, that is unless you wish to be hypocrites yourselves.

What passes for argument here is a joke. Is, for example, the choice between whether or not to abort a pregnancy that is the result of rape really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus is female rather than male? Or that to abort a fetus that will grow into a severely disabled child really the same choice as whether or not to abort a pregnancy because the fetus will grow into a brunette and not a blonde? I'm asking for a yes or a no to that question only. If you really think yes, maybe you just might want to reflect on how easy it is sitting in your armchairs to make life-changing decisions on behalf of other people.
Nice rant (First two paragraphs anyway)

Theres no obligiation to post if you dont like the quality of the argumentation in this forum, Im sure there are plenty of other forums just waiting for you to dazzle them with your brilliant insights.

On the actual question of abortion I'll need to study the question more. My initial opinion is that though it is acceptable in Islam I do share an intense dislike of the practice. I think any decent society will do what it can to minimise the amount of abortions that happens.

Bit of history, in the UK its legalisation coupled with the cultural revolution (eg. breakdown of family unit etc) of the 1960s led to the growth of abortion on demand. To be fair to the legislators this was not their original intent, but (predictably) thats what it became :(

And you can see the results, abortion rates since that time have gone through the roof, so much so that even some seclar-liberals are getting 'concerned' wondering why the abortion rate is so high despite the easy availablity of contraception and sex education.

I do find it interesting how certain feminists who wax lyrical about a womens right to choose and that no one should interfere etc etc, get uptight when women from different parts of the world make the wrong choices. (Obviously I'm against female foeticide).
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Trumble
05-26-2011, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Your ideology, or shall I say Athiests ideology is about promoting freedom of choice I assume?
I am a Buddhist (who also happens to be an atheist). Buddhism is a religion and a philosophy not an ideology but we don't generally approve of abortion, no. I also agree there is a certain level of hypocrisy in finding abortion acceptable in some circumstances but not in others, although I think my last suggested the issue is rather more complicated than some would like to think.

Anyway, atheism is not an ideology, either. It is simply a belief that there is no God. It neither carries nor implies any moral opinions at all, nor any opinions on promoting freedom of choice, or otherwise. There are 'pro'-abortion atheists and anti-abortion atheists. Ditto on political ideologies. Or hunting whales. Or building nuclear power stations. Pacifists and warmongers. Palestinian freedom fighters and Mossad agents. Humanitarians and tyrannical dictators. You name it, you'll find atheists in both camps and anything in between. All I'm trying to say, or ask, is not to dump a whole load of moral baggage on the label atheist or assume people who are atheists hold particular opinions on any issue other than one - whether God exists.
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CosmicPathos
05-27-2011, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Where did I actualy state I support abortion though? You can't assume all atheists agree with abortion and point out where the large numbers of atheists are on this thread that are supporting abortion?

Surely you don't agree with aborting babies because of their gender? This thread is about that topic and not abortion in general.

Well, if it's too bad for the female foetuses then that's too bad for the men who suddenly find there are few women and they have to look after their own houses.
where did I say you support abortion? Where did I say I am referring to ALL atheists? You need to wake up while reading posts.
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Trumble
05-27-2011, 08:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
where did I say you support abortion? Where did I say I am referring to ALL atheists?
I think you were slightly misrepresented in #47.
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CosmicPathos
05-27-2011, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I think you were slightly misrepresented in #47.
I did not even talk about ALL sorts of atheists, I talked about a certain group of people: Feminist medical ethicists who can be atheists or not. Speaks volume about the "intellectual" ability of folks here.
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Trumble
05-27-2011, 01:41 PM
Sigh... we know what you said. The problem is what Ramadan said.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I think br. Mad scientist was responding to the atheists/agnostics in this forum, and not addressing non-muslims in general.
He is actually exposing how hypocritical they are, how they support freedom of abortion, but got mad when it is the female foetus being aborted.
As you have said, you were not responding to "the atheists/agnostics in this forum". I think Laura assumed she was included in that group and as a consequence rather resented being assumed to hold a particular opinion that she does not.
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Perseveranze
05-31-2011, 12:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I am a Buddhist (who also happens to be an atheist). Buddhism is a religion and a philosophy not an ideology but we don't generally approve of abortion, no. I also agree there is a certain level of hypocrisy in finding abortion acceptable in some circumstances but not in others, although I think my last suggested the issue is rather more complicated than some would like to think.

Anyway, atheism is not an ideology, either. It is simply a belief that there is no God. It neither carries nor implies any moral opinions at all, nor any opinions on promoting freedom of choice, or otherwise. There are 'pro'-abortion atheists and anti-abortion atheists. Ditto on political ideologies. Or hunting whales. Or building nuclear power stations. Pacifists and warmongers. Palestinian freedom fighters and Mossad agents. Humanitarians and tyrannical dictators. You name it, you'll find atheists in both camps and anything in between. All I'm trying to say, or ask, is not to dump a whole load of moral baggage on the label atheist or assume people who are atheists hold particular opinions on any issue other than one - whether God exists.
Sorry for the late reply. I want to go back to your other post as I missed something.

I admit my ignorance when I actually almost believed that BBC story link you gave me. Do you seriously think, 4 Muslim people would beat up a Teacher simply for teaching RE. Do you actually believe this is the reason?

I am just curious to know what you say.
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Rhubarb Tart
05-31-2011, 12:23 AM
^^^O_o
I want to know! Although beating the hell out of someone is pretty much unacceptable. But still I want to know!
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GuestFellow
05-31-2011, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
^^^O_o
I want to know! Although beating the hell out of someone is pretty much unacceptable. But still I want to know!
Salaam,

Four Muslim men who assaulted a religious education teacher because they did not approve of him teaching Muslim girls have been jailed.

What idiots. I do wish the punishments were more harsh. We need corporal punishment to deter these kinds of crimes.
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Perseveranze
05-31-2011, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam,

Four Muslim men who assaulted a religious education teacher because they did not approve of him teaching Muslim girls have been jailed.

What idiots. I do wish the punishments were more harsh. We need corporal punishment to deter these kinds of crimes.
ails
Brother, you really shouldn't be so judgemental based on what a Islamaphobic/Kuffar media story tells you.

Why doesn't the story even say what it was that the man taught the girls which the 4 men were completly against? Think about it, do you think someone would do such an act just because they didn't "approve" of someone, especially when they've lived in the country for so long (media probably didn't mention they could be british) and know how the system works? I really think their missing out some important details.

I'm not saying it's true, but I would define it as a more reliable source than what the media say regarding the situation, and it's from people that actually know those Muslims. They say that the 4 Muslims attacked teacher for molesting their daughter. I am not saying this is ground breaking truth, just a word from a mouth, but it certainly would make more sense than "cos they didn't approve of the guy so they beat them half to death".

Now even though violence still isn't always the answer, it's very easy to say that when me and you are on the other side of the picture.

Anyways, don't think you should be so judgemental, only Allah(swt) knows the truth.
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Ramadhan
05-31-2011, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam, Four Muslim men who assaulted a religious education teacher because they did not approve of him teaching Muslim girls have been jailed. What idiots. I do wish the punishments were more harsh. We need corporal punishment to deter these kinds of crimes.

What a bunch of idiots! Why didn't they just petition to get the teacher removed instead of beating him like that?
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GuestFellow
05-31-2011, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
ails
Brother, you really shouldn't be so judgemental based on what a Islamaphobic/Kuffar media story tells you.
:wa:

I agree we should not jump to conclusions but these men have been found guilty.

Why doesn't the story even say what it was that the man taught the girls which the 4 men were completly against? Think about it, do you think someone would do such an act just because they didn't "approve" of someone, especially when they've lived in the country for so long (media probably didn't mention they could be british) and know how the system works? I really think their missing out some important details.
Some details might have been missing. But there was no excuse to beat the man up. These men were convicted of Grievous Bodily Harm with intent section 18. That is a very serious offence. Motive is irrelevant here (harsh but true). They broke the law and should be punished.

I'm not saying it's true, but I would define it as a more reliable source than what the media say regarding the situation, and it's from people that actually know those Muslims. They say that the 4 Muslims attacked teacher for molesting their daughter. I am not saying this is ground breaking truth, just a word from a mouth, but it certainly would make more sense than "cos they didn't approve of the guy so they beat them half to death".
There might have been several reasons. If a was girl molested by a teacher, then they should have got in contact with the police and the school. Based on the evidence available, the teacher has done nothing wrong and is innocent.

Now even though violence still isn't always the answer, it's very easy to say that when me and you are on the other side of the picture. Anyways, don't think you should be so
judgemental, only Allah(swt) knows the truth.
I simply cannot tolerate people that commit horrific crimes. Not only these four men caused a victim to suffer a horrific injuries but their family reputation has been tarnished as well.

The court heard Mr Smith suffered multiple injuries, has a permanent 4.7in (12cm) long deep scar across his left cheek, and the whole of the facial part of his skull was broken.

The court heard he cannot remember the attack and has problems with his memory and sufferers from depression and anxiety - all of which now affect his ability to teach.
The impact this attack on the victim is significant. He did not deserve this.
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May Ayob
06-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Salaam I am confused and disapointed as well :(
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