List why I was not satisfied with my Ex religion

[Riana17]

I do not wish to offend anyone, this is purely my personal opinion and I hope this will benefit others to decide:

1. Catholic was founded by HUMAN - the word christian or catholic will never be found in bible as well as the word "BIBLE" itself
2. Bible is not (purely) words of God, it is from the word BIBLIA that confirms it is collection of (hundreds) of books, which means it is the words of the authors.
God or the prophets were not directly talking to each other. Also the same book has been revised countless times
3. There is Only ONE GOD - this is first 4 out of 10 Commandments of God
4. Countless verses in Bible confirms there is only One God
5. Sex occurs frequently in the bible - this is far attributable to the WORD OF GOD


JESUS in BIBLE:
1. He is not God - if he is God becoz he dont have a father, the right goes more to Adam & Eve whom were created from nothing
2. He didnt die: Bible confirm he was hangry and looking for food (John)
3. He fast, ate, circumsized, sad, upset, chased, hangry, tired, like all human
4. He was praying (the way Muslim prays today)
5. He confirms that the biggest sin a man can commit is believing in Multiple gods

Whereas everyone blv JESUS Died, so if he died, who was God - taking care of this world when he was dead
I dont think that those of Jesus statues is Jesus for real when there was no camera/video etc to support it.

I have like 13pages earlier but I shortlisted the things I could remember for now.

Just sharing, SALAM

[Pygoscelis]

I do not wish to offend anyone, this is purely my personal opinion and I hope this will benefit others to decide:

Hi Andrea. From an outsider's point of view, who is neither Muslim nor Christian, the below appears to be primarily if not entirely based on your faith and I would address it as follows:

1. Catholic was founded by HUMAN - the word christian or catholic will never be found in bible as well as the word "BIBLE" itself

Islam was also founded by a human. It does not matter if the word Christian or Muslim appear in a text, because of point number two.

2. Bible is not (purely) words of God, it is from the word BIBLIA that confirms it is collection of (hundreds) of books, which means it is the words of the authors.
God or the prophets were not directly talking to each other. Also the same book has been revised countless times

The Quran is not written by God either. Just like the bible it is a book written by a human hand. Both claim to be inspired or dictated by God. Both require faith to believe that. That one is a single book and one is a collection of books, assembled through the guidance of divine spirit a christian would claim, makes little difference

3. There is Only ONE GOD - this is first 4 out of 10 Commandments of God
4. Countless verses in Bible confirms there is only One God

A Christian agrees that there is only one God. They just have the weird concept of the trinity to complicate things a little. And if you think the Christian trinity is hard to understand, try the Hindu religion :D

5. Sex occurs frequently in the bible - this is far attributable to the WORD OF GOD

I don't see why this would be relevant.

JESUS in BIBLE:
1. He is not God - if he is God becoz he dont have a father, the right goes more to Adam & Eve whom were created from nothing

That is an interesting point I haven't seen made before. You're right, Adam didn't have a mother and neither did Eve. I'm not so sure that "not having a birth father makes him God" is a central Christian claim though. Doesn't it have more to do with being born of a virgin (and thus being pure)? And isn't even that a few steps short of being the core of the religion?

2. He didnt die: Bible confirm he was hangry and looking for food (John)

There is a lot of debate over this point. Both of your religions base it on your faiths.

3. He fast, ate, circumsized, sad, upset, chased, hangry, tired, like all human

Why is that relevant?

4. He was praying (the way Muslim prays today)

Why is that relevant?

5. He confirms that the biggest sin a man can commit is believing in Multiple gods

This is true. But Christians will argue that they don't have multiple Gods. They even have a history of killing people who worship other Gods, or who have none. You and I both would be slaughtered by them in times gone by simply for holding the views we do.

I dont think that those of Jesus statues is Jesus for real when there was no camera/video etc to support it.

This we agree on. :)

[May Ayob]

Salaam to all

Brother , i dont understand if you are an atheist as you have slected why are you trying to refute for what she has said , she explained her point of view which i agree with.
It doesnt really matter if they used to kill people, they are responsible for the death of many innocent lifes , and No one but God has the right to judge who is following the correct path or not. What they did was a disgusting crime , and nothing justifies it.

Secondly how can worshipping Jesus and his mother not be ascociating other partners with God.?
It is wether, you agree or not , No one but God should be worshipped, God and God alone.

3rdly what do you mean why is this rleveant, is eating , drinking , and human needs are attribution that you would belive God posses , Exalted is he.

A word of God should be clear guidance to humanity , not speaking about explicit and mythological disgusting immoral fables, it is very simple to understand that religion is to lisft up the soul and spirit , not to make you a confused animal that is running after worldy desires.

I quite question your atheism , ive had a teacher who was just like you in points of view , he used to claim that he was an atheist and he did his best to evangelise people in school , and what do you know he turned out to be a priest in our country's Church of Christ.

Salaam

[May Ayob]

Please return to a precious book called , misqouting Jesus and you will realise that no christian institution today even has a copy , of copy of a copy , of copy , of a copy of the original text that was inspired to Christ Pbuh.


Peace to all.

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[Who Am I?]

A couple of these issues mentioned are things I am struggling with right now in my own faith of Christianity. I have to admit that I am not completely sold on Islam either yet. I guess at this point I am sort of a blend of Christian and Muslim, with maybe a little deism thrown in. There are things about both religions that I like and there are things about both that I dislike. I am not sure I will ever find the one faith I can completely agree on, but I will keep trying to find it.

Salaam...

[May Ayob]

Salaam to all

Bro just a guy can you explain further what exactly you are struggling with so that our brothers and sister here can help you more :)

[Who Am I?]

Salaam to all

Bro just a guy can you explain further what exactly you are struggling with so that our brothers and sister here can help you more :)

How much time do you have? :p

To make it short, my main issues with Christianity are Jesus and the Trinity. My main issues with Islam so far (I am still finding out about Islam) are dogs and alcohol. I've seen some sites that say that owning dogs in Islam is haraam, and others say that it is permissible. So I'm not real clear on that. Same with alcohol. Some sites I've read say it is totally off limits and others just say not to pray while under the influence.

I do not want to get into a moral or philosophical debate about why I disagree with those things. I do not feel that this is the time or place for that. But there it is.

[Pygoscelis]

Salaam to all

Brother , i dont understand if you are an atheist as you have slected why are you trying to refute for what she has said

I am not so much refuting what she said as offering an objective view. If you are muslim, or if you are Christian, you are biased regarding any comparison or criticism between them. As neither I may have a view obscured from both (which has nothing to do with my atheism, a hindu or buddhist etc would also be an outsider).

No one but God has the right to judge who is following the correct path or not. What they did was a disgusting crime , and nothing justifies it.

The second statement above directly contradicts the first.

Secondly how can worshipping Jesus and his mother not be ascociating other partners with God.?

Regarding Jesus himself, via the trinity. They believe that Jesus IS God. Regarding Mary, you have a point, it would be associating partners with God.

It is wether, you agree or not , No one but God should be worshipped, God and God alone.

That is your belief and religion. Others may disagree.

3rdly what do you mean why is this rleveant, is eating , drinking , and human needs are attribution that you would belive God posses , Exalted is he.

If Jesus was a human manifestation of God then it makes sense that he would eat and drink, etc.

I quite question your atheism , ive had a teacher who was just like you in points of view , he used to claim that he was an atheist and he did his best to evangelise people in school , and what do you know he turned out to be a priest in our country's Church of Christ.

I assure you that I am not a believer in Gods. I also assure you that I am not a believer in ghosts. Why would you believe the latter but not the former?

Atheists encounter this kind of accusation pretty frequently. I have even heard some religious folks claiming that atheists do not exist, period. I think this is more telling of theists than atheists.

My theory is that a lot of believers need to believe that atheists do not exist or that we are all pretending or denying belief that exists (due to a desire to engage in what is forbidden perhaps). I think a lot of theists need to hold this misperception because to admit to themselves that others do not believe what they do, or worse yet ceased to believe what they do, threatens to undercut their own faith and cause them to examine and question their own belief.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace Pygoscelis

Islam was also founded by a human. It does not matter if the word Christian or Muslim appear in a text, because of point number two.

Firstly, please could you post your evidence that Islaam was founded by a human and then explain to me was that 'human' worthy of claiming what he claimed? As in the chapters and verses of the Qur'aan were from his ownself? Before attempting to make such a claim i hope you have read the Qur'aan and the Ahadeeth all in full text, the translation, the explanation of each chapter verse, why they were revealed, when they were revealed, do you have the knowledge of this? If not then i dont think you have the right to attempt to make such a claim.

The Quran is not written by God either. Just like the bible it is a book written by a human hand. Both claim to be inspired or dictated by God. Both require faith to believe that. That one is a single book and one is a collection of books, assembled through the guidance of divine spirit a christian would claim, makes little difference

Nor does the Quraan deny the original versions of Bible and many other books, yet it confirms what has been changed within those books! Again please, are you some sort of scholar?

A Christian agrees that there is only one God. They just have the weird concept of the trinity to complicate things a little. And if you think the Christian trinity is hard to understand, try the Hindu religion :D

As far as it concerns me the trinity was never mentioned in the bible, but correct me if i am wrong..

The confusion arises when there are also 'some' christians who believe that Jesus was simply a prophet and nothing more, nor did he claim divinity nor did he claim of asking to be worshipped..

That is an interesting point I haven't seen made before. You're right, Adam didn't have a mother and neither did Eve. I'm not so sure that "not having a birth father makes him God" is a central Christian claim though. Doesn't it have more to do with being born of a virgin (and thus being pure)? And isn't even that a few steps short of being the core of the religion?

Well, Adam and Even having no parents proves that there is a God, they didnt just appear of nothing.. And as 'thiests' one believes God is powerful and able to do of what he wills.. the virgin birth was simply a proof of God's existence and also a miracle. Maybe this is something difficult for an 'Athiest' to understand, but what is true is true nothing happens for no reason, the reason was also created.if that makes sense :-\

I hope i have no offended you, my intentions were simply not too..

[Pygoscelis]

Firstly, please could you post your evidence that Islaam was founded by a human and then explain to me was that 'human' worthy of claiming what he claimed?

Of course I can not prove this with 100% certainty, but neither can the OP, which is what I was responding to. My statement was meant as a contrast to hers. Both have equal basis and both can be argued. Islam, to everybody but a muslim, came to be with Mohammed and the Quran. I do undersand that the muslim belief it that Islam (submission to God) actually goes all the way back to the origin of humanity but that is not the way non muslims will see it, just as the OP is seeing Christianity from a non-Christian viewpoint.

Well, Adam and Even having no parents proves that there is a God, they didnt just appear of nothing

If you believe the story then sure, and you don't even need the proof, becasue if you believe the story of Adam and Even then you already believe in the God involved. That has nothing to do with the point the OP was making though as far as I can tell.

the virgin birth was simply a proof of God's existence and also a miracle. Maybe this is something difficult for an 'Athiest' to understand

Actually virgin birth is a remote possibility and doesn't require the supernatural to explain it. It is exceedingly rare, but actually has been observed in a number of species and is possible (though extremely unlikely) to occur in humans. Check it out: http://www.slate.com/id/2179865/

I hope i have no offended you, my intentions were simply not too..

Not at all. I appreciate your posts.

[Dagless]

A couple of these issues mentioned are things I am struggling with right now in my own faith of Christianity. I have to admit that I am not completely sold on Islam either yet. I guess at this point I am sort of a blend of Christian and Muslim, with maybe a little deism thrown in. There are things about both religions that I like and there are things about both that I dislike. I am not sure I will ever find the one faith I can completely agree on, but I will keep trying to find it.

Salaam...

You should look for the truth, whether you like or dislike with things shouldn't come into it. I'm sure plenty of Muslims dislike fasting or giving their money to the poor but if it is the truth then you should follow it regardless of personal taste. Pick and mix is just another way of fulfilling your own desires on things (which will no doubt change with time and then you'll end up picking and mixing again).

[May Ayob]

So , you think that killing people , that do not follow your , faith , philosophy and ideas is something normal?
As a humanbeing that was given a mind, heart and soul i think it is only natural to condemn the actions of the crusaders.
i do not see any contradiction because when i said was about religion and it doesnt make sense to me how you claim that my statements contradict. Yes it is only God who will judge you according to you deeds and intentions , and it is not acceptable to be killing people because they dont accept Christ as their savior- i think my point was pretty clear.

2ndly.Not every christian denomination belive that Christ is God that isn't true, i've met many and they say they belive in God the creator not Jesus the "son" it is only the evanagilicans that belive so which is stupid and absurd.

It is pretty clear to me even though you claim you are an athiest that you have some type of sympathy and inclanation towards christianity that's why you are very eager to comment on every statement.

since when does God need to incarinate Himself and despratley call people to belive in him, actually non of what you stated is in the Bible so it only proves my earlier point.All the trinity and God incarinate claims are not stated in the Bible which is supposed to be the original source i pay no attention to what the popes and priests say to me they have no significance at all.

Athiests are human beings just as anyone else no need to regard yourselves as some type of intellectually gifted people and seperate yourself from other people because we are all equal. and i honestly still question your atheism


Peace be to all.

[Flame of Hope]

To make it short, my main issues with Christianity are Jesus and the Trinity. My main issues with Islam so far (I am still finding out about Islam) are dogs and alcohol. I've seen some sites that say that owning dogs in Islam is haraam, and others say that it is permissible. So I'm not real clear on that. Same with alcohol. Some sites I've read say it is totally off limits and others just say not to pray while under the influence.

Here are a few suggestions that you might find helpful:

1. No matter how much knowledge you might gain, there will always be things that will be complete mysteries to you.

2. Be more concerned about the main mysteries of life which are: the purpose of life, the reason why God created us, why we die and what happens after death.

3. Have a sense of priority and do not be misled by trivial things that you don't understand. Knowing why keeping dogs is haraam or why alcohol is forbidden shouldn't feature on top of your priority list.

It's a wicked whisper of Shaytan who is trying to steer you away from what is important and make you focus on something that is less important.

4. Once you have found answers to the main mysteries of life, then everything will fall into place......the pieces of the puzzle will come together and you'll begin to see your place in the grand scheme of things.

5. Lastly, solving the main mysteries of life is an easy affair if you have a genuine desire to know the truth because God Himself assists such a person. And whosoever God guides, who can misguide?

Hope this helps in some way.

[May Ayob]

You should look for the truth, whether you like or dislike with things shouldn't come into it. I'm sure plenty of Muslims dislike fasting or giving their money to the poor but if it is the truth then you should follow it regardless of personal taste. Pick and mix is just another way of fulfilling your own desires on things (which will no doubt change with time and then you'll end up picking and mixing again).

Sorry Bro but that aint so true either, atleast not to me, you cant be amuslim and hate giving money to the people who are in need, because Islam basically tell us that the money is the boundary of our Lord and that just as He has given you wealth He almighty can also take it a away in a blink of an eye. Many muslims , are very compassionate and merciful people that give the money that God has given them out of true sympathy and love. God is not in need of us giving money to anyone , but He doesnt want us to be greedy people and He wants to teach us to be helpfull and mercifull to one another and establish a true brotherhood.

As for the Fasting infact fasting is a wonderfull thing because it teaches you to be stronger, to have a sense of charcter and many muslims enjoy fasting or else they wouldnt have fasted in other days such as Monday and Thursday.

I hope i didnt offend you i just didnt agree with that and i also hope you respect my point of view.

[Pygoscelis]

Yes it is only God who will judge you according to you deeds and intentions , and it is not acceptable to be killing people because they dont accept Christ as their savior- i think my point was pretty clear.

It is not just God that judges people. We all do. I judge. You judge. If somebody kills people for not believing in Christ, they are a terrible person and I judge them as such. This is a judgment. Saying that their actions are deplorable and can have no basis is also a judgment.

It is pretty clear to me even though you claim you are an athiest that you have some type of sympathy and inclanation towards christianity

Can I quote this? This is seriously the first time I have ever been accused of sympathy for Christianity. I am in reality probably the most anti-Christian person you are likely to meet on this board. That doesn't prevent me from seeing a one sided and faith coloured critique of it though, so I offered an objective perspective.

since when does God need to incarinate Himself and despratley call people to belive in him, actually non o[f what you stated is in the Bible so it only proves my earlier point.All the trinity and God incarinate claims are not stated in the Bible which is supposed to be the original source i pay no attention to what the popes and priests say to me they have no significance at all.

A religion is more than the holy book. A religion is what the believer believes and how they practice that belief. This can include everything from holy books to less authoritative hadeeth to sermons to personal prayer to whatever - whatever the believer accepts as true.

Athiests are human beings just as anyone else no need to regard yourselves as some type of intellectually gifted people and seperate yourself from other people because we are all equal.

This accusatoin is baseless. I have done no such thing.

and i honestly still question your atheism

And I have presented my theory why you do that.

[Pygoscelis]

Yes it is only God who will judge you according to you deeds and intentions , and it is not acceptable to be killing people because they dont accept Christ as their savior- i think my point was pretty clear.

It is not just God that judges people. We all do. I judge. You judge. If somebody kills people for not believing in Christ, they are a terrible person and I judge them as such. This is a judgment. Saying that their actions are deplorable and can have no basis is also a judgment.

It is pretty clear to me even though you claim you are an athiest that you have some type of sympathy and inclanation towards christianity

Can I quote this? This is seriously the first time I have ever been accused of sympathy for Christianity. I am in reality probably the most anti-Christian person you are likely to meet on this board. That doesn't prevent me from seeing a one sided and faith coloured critique of it though, so I offered an objective perspective.

since when does God need to incarinate Himself and despratley call people to belive in him, actually non o[f what you stated is in the Bible so it only proves my earlier point.All the trinity and God incarinate claims are not stated in the Bible which is supposed to be the original source i pay no attention to what the popes and priests say to me they have no significance at all.

A religion is more than the holy book. A religion is what the believer believes and how they practice that belief. This can include everything from holy books to less authoritative hadeeth to sermons to personal prayer to whatever - whatever the believer accepts as true.

Athiests are human beings just as anyone else no need to regard yourselves as some type of intellectually gifted people and seperate yourself from other people because we are all equal.

This accusatoin is baseless. I have done no such thing.

and i honestly still question your atheism

And I have presented my theory why you do that.

[al yunan]

Atheists encounter this kind of accusation pretty frequently. I have even heard some religious folks claiming that atheists do not exist, period. I think this is more telling of theists than atheists. My theory is that a lot of believers need to believe that atheists do not exist or that we are all pretending or denying belief that exists (due to a desire to engage in what is forbidden perhaps). I think a lot of theists need to hold this misperception because to admit to themselves that others do not believe what they do, or worse yet ceased to believe what they do, threatens to undercut their own faith and cause them to examine and question their own belief

Salam dear brother P,

You have been around Muslims long enough already I see you have 2,494 posts still I don't think you quite get our beliefs and especially our idea of Atheism.
You see atheism plays an important part in Islam as it is part of our Shahada "there is no god (deity)..........." an absolute negation is required for the affirmation to be validated "there is Allah"
That would mean that any Muslim who does not comprehend Atheism is quite likely to commit the gravest of sins the sin of association known as Shirk.
With the above in mind Inshallah one day you will make an excellent Muslim.

By the way Atheist literally means one with no God (unprotected / not belonging) and not one who does not believe in God as that would be an Agnostic as both are Greek (I'm Greek) words and regardless of how they are used or might mean in English that's their true meaning. Freudian slip ?

Masalam

[Pygoscelis]

By the way Atheist literally means one with no God (unprotected / not belonging) and not one who does not believe in God as that would be an Agnostic as both are Greek (I'm Greek) words and regardless of how they are used or might mean in English that's their true meaning. Freudian slip ?

Atheist would literally mean one who is not theist. Agnostic would literally mean one without knowledge. But I don't think there has been any miscommunication above. I think we all know what each other have been talking about. We have a person who is claiming I do not actually not believe in God. And I have presented a theory as to why they feel a need to think or profess that.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace to you

Of course I can not prove this with 100% certainty, but neither can the OP, which is what I was responding to. My statement was meant as a contrast to hers. Both have equal basis and both can be argued. Islam, to everybody but a muslim, came to be with Mohammed and the Quran. I do undersand that the muslim belief it that Islam (submission to God) actually goes all the way back to the origin of humanity but that is not the way non muslims will see it, just as the OP is seeing Christianity from a non-Christian viewpoint.

The OP was clearly pointing out what was the facts in regards to the bible. As far as i understand it seems you are saying that whether it be Christian or the Muslim faith, they both disagree with one another so they feel they are both better than each other by simply stating what someone 'sees' from the other faith..But the way i see it is that one book is comfirming something that another said, basically speaking the truth, what more is there needed?

If you believe the story then sure, and you don't even need the proof, becasue if you believe the story of Adam and Even then you already believe in the God involved. That has nothing to do with the point the OP was making though as far as I can tell.

Be aware that one who follows something without knowing why is classed as following blindly but not in all cases. It seems we should stop assuming things by saying we/others dont need proof. Yes, sometimes we truly believe that there is no proof needed because of the level of faith one has, this is good as the faith is strong, but sometimes it cannot as it may be someone following blindly and preventing one from obtaining the truth, though it just shows how sincere that person is in reality.

This is what the OP posted

JESUS in BIBLE:
1. He is not God - if he is God becoz he dont have a father, the right goes more to Adam & Eve whom were created from nothing

What point did i miss?

Actually virgin birth is a remote possibility and doesn't require the supernatural to explain it. It is exceedingly rare, but actually has been observed in a number of species and is possible (though extremely unlikely) to occur in humans. Check it out: http://www.slate.com/id/2179865/

Actually i think you didnt read my post..

And as 'thiests' one believes God is powerful and able to do of what he wills

Also the article doesnt suprise me, it may however be true or not i do not know, it doesnt change the fact that the birth of Jesus (pbuh) being a miracle ,i remember reading once there was also a seven year who gave birth to his brother :\ it may well be some sort of disorder i do not know..I will leave this to someone knowledgeable to reply, though it does make it clear when he (God) says he is able to do all things after Maryam (as) says she is a virgin, and how she can have a child etc.. The fact is that he is able to do all things that suit his majesty.

And the word 'Exceedingly rare' shocks me.:\

Along with the miracle of Virgin Birth there were many more miracles of Jesus (pbuh)..

In Surah Al Emraan

"She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is. " [Al Qur'aan 3-47]

And Surah Maryam

"She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?, He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah)." [Al Qur'an 19:20-21]

These verses are clear as they show that Allaah is able to do all things, it is not difficult for him..

If i have not made it clear to you, or there is something i lack i hope that someone else will help insha'Allaah

I have a question for you out of curiousity, im not sure if you believe in God since it states 'Athiest' in your profile, what are you thoughts about God?

Not at all. I appreciate your posts.

No worries..

[al yunan]

We have a person who is claiming I do not actually not believe in God. And I have presented a theory as to why they feel a need to think or profess that.

Is it not Ironic that we live in an age that one has to defend one's disbelief and that is thought as normal.

[Who Am I?]

Well the reason I am concerned about dogs in particular is because I have two dogs that are my closest companions right now. I already feel alone enough as it is on this journey, and could not get rid of them if I wanted to right now. I know, this seems trivial and maybe it is. But that is my reality.

As for alcohol, well that is something I have struggled with for a long time. Life is hard enough without enjoying a few drinks on the weekends. I have tried to give this one up before but was never successful for a long time. I think I made it a little over a year once before something happened to make me start drinking again. I think my main problem with alcohol is boredom. I am so bored with my life right now and tired of being unhappy, and when I get bored and unhappy, I drink.

I was going to post in more detail later about all my issues with most religions when I get home and have more time.

[Flame of Hope]

Well the reason I am concerned about dogs in particular is because I have two dogs that are my closest companions right now. I already feel alone enough as it is on this journey, and could not get rid of them if I wanted to right now. I know, this seems trivial and maybe it is. But that is my reality.

As for alcohol, well that is something I have struggled with for a long time. Life is hard enough without enjoying a few drinks on the weekends. I have tried to give this one up before but was never successful for a long time. I think I made it a little over a year once before something happened to make me start drinking again. I think my main problem with alcohol is boredom. I am so bored with my life right now and tired of being unhappy, and when I get bored and unhappy, I drink.

Thank you for sharing. I now understand why those things are important to you. I apologize for calling these things trivial....but it was because I thought that you were looking for excuses to reject Islam. So please forgive me.

If I might offer some words of comfort, I'd like you to dwell on the name of God called Al-Ghaffar. He is a God who loves to forgive. If you were to go to Him with a mountain load of sins, reaching the very skies, even if your sins were to cover the entire earth and heavens.....His forgiveness is greater.

He has forgiven people who were murderers, people who buried little girls alive...... what is keeping dogs and drinking alcohol compared to that? Also consider that there was a prostitute from the Children of Israel. God forgave her simply because she gave water to a thirsty dog.

The only sin He won't forgive is worshiping other gods besides Him. That was why I said it was heart-warming to hear you say that you pray to God directly....and not to Jesus.

[Darth Ultor]

Wait, how could Jesus have prayed like a Muslim? Salat mentions Muhammad who didn't come until centuries later. He prayed like the Jew that he was. In Hebrew not Arabic.

[Dagless]

Wait, how could Jesus have prayed like a Muslim? Salat mentions Muhammad who didn't come until centuries later. He prayed like the Jew that he was. In Hebrew not Arabic.

I think the sister meant bowing down, which most Christians do not do these days. I doubt it would be Hebrew either; possibly Aramaic.

[Darth Ultor]

No, prayer and the Torah were always Hebrew. Aramaic was the street language.

[جوري]

Wait, how could Jesus have prayed like a Muslim? Salat mentions Muhammad who didn't come until centuries later. He prayed like the Jew that he was. In Hebrew not Arabic.

you mean like this?
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-familiar.html

[Darth Ultor]

I don't see the flash.

[جوري]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

[Darth Ultor]

Well, we don't prostrate everyday. We bow. Prostration is only on the high holidays.

[جوري]

Well, we don't prostrate everyday. We bow. Prostration is only on the high holidays.

Point being Jewish prayer is almost identical to Islamic prayer, and if Jesus (p) were a Jew, then it is certain he too prayed in a similar manner..
How the prayers evolved through the ages is inconsequential.. what matters is what was, is what is meant to be, and what has been reestablished with Islam, even if the people of old forgo the right way..

best,

[Who Am I?]

Thank you for sharing. I now understand why those things are important to you. I apologize for calling these things trivial....but it was because I thought that you were looking for excuses to reject Islam. So please forgive me.

If I might offer some words of comfort, I'd like you to dwell on the name of God called Al-Ghaffar. He is a God who loves to forgive. If you were to go to Him with a mountain load of sins, reaching the very skies, even if your sins were to cover the entire earth and heavens.....His forgiveness is greater.

He has forgiven people who were murderers, people who buried little girls alive...... what is keeping dogs and drinking alcohol compared to that? Also consider that there was a prostitute from the Children of Israel. God forgave her simply because she gave water to a thirsty dog.

The only sin He won't forgive is worshiping other gods besides Him. That was why I said it was heart-warming to hear you say that you pray to God directly....and not to Jesus.

You know, I was thinking about something on my way home from church tonight. It occurs to me that maybe I am taking this whole Christianity vs. Islam thing a little too seriously. I think I just need to step back and not worry so much about this thing and that thing. I want to take everything and everyone else off the table and just make it about me and God. That is where I have to start.

It also occurs to that some of my posts sound like I am seeking attention and drama. Believe me, I am not. If I have offended anyone here by anything I have said, then I apologize. I am simply trying to find inner peace and happiness in my life.

Now with that being said, I may or may not visit a local masjid over the holiday weekend to speak to someone about a few things and take in the atmosphere. I have seen how Christians worship. Now I want to see how Muslims worship.

[Flame of Hope]

I want to take everything and everyone else off the table and just make it about me and God. That is where I have to start.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

[Riana17]

I think the sister meant bowing down, which most Christians do not do these days. I doubt it would be Hebrew either; possibly Aramaic.

Yes thanks for the support, that's what I meant

[Riana17]

Well, we don't prostrate everyday. We bow. Prostration is only on the high holidays.

SALAM
can you pls clarify this?

if a person is born Jewish, then they have a Jewish soul, and they must
follow Judaism.. that's discrimination, isn't it? That's not universal.

So God makes Jewish souls, and Christian souls, and Muslim souls, and Hindu
souls? I thought all men are created equal? So, because one is born into a
religion that means by the decree of God he must remain in it. even if the
person believes it to be false? Hmm.I don't agree with that.

Another thing really bothered me.there is no strict concept of hell in
Judaism.then why be goood? Why not sin? If I don't have fear of strict
punishment, then why should I be moral?

[May Ayob]

Can I quote this? This is seriously the first time I have ever been accused of sympathy for Christianity. I am in reality probably the most anti-Christian person you are likely to meet on this board. That doesn't prevent me from seeing a one sided and faith coloured critique of it though, so I offered an objective perspective.

Well , from what i read in your posts you were mainly speaking about the christian point of view.Sorry if i offended you you but that's how it seemed to me.

And I have presented my theory why you do that.

Well you know brother you never know where this world takes you , really you might be an atheist now and turn out to be somethings totally different in the future , but hopefully something good.

About my comments on you atheists i honestly didn't like the whole "we Atheists" thing it didnt sound right to me.

Peace to all.

[May Ayob]

You know, I was thinking about something on my way home from church tonight. It occurs to me that maybe I am taking this whole Christianity vs. Islam thing a little too seriously. I think I just need to step back and not worry so much about this thing and that thing. I want to take everything and everyone else off the table and just make it about me and God. That is where I have to start. It also occurs to that some of my posts sound like I am seeking attention and drama. Believe me, I am not. If I have offended anyone here by anything I have said, then I apologize. I am simply trying to find inner peace and happiness in my life. Now with that being said, I may or may not visit a local masjid over the holiday weekend to speak to someone about a few things and take in the atmosphere. I have seen how Christians worship. Now I want to see how Muslims worship.

Salaam Peace be to you Bro,
sorry i didnt reply to the first post.
Honestly none of your posts seem or occur like you are seeking attention but it seems that you are alost person that is trying to find their way in this life , i think many people understand , this is something normal. Please dont have this opinion about yourself or others because many people here actually care and are willing to help you with the knowledge that God has gifted them with. No need to apologize

I hope you find true happiness and inner peace and i hope God guides you to that which is best.

I think sister Flame has very good advice i'd work by it myself.
Yes and it is good that you also want to have a direct relationship with God almighty nothing can give you more inner relief than that.

I hope this helps.

[Amigo]

SALAM
can you pls clarify this?

if a person is born Jewish, then they have a Jewish soul, and they must
follow Judaism.. that's discrimination, isn't it? That's not universal.

So God makes Jewish souls, and Christian souls, and Muslim souls, and Hindu
souls? I thought all men are created equal? So, because one is born into a
religion that means by the decree of God he must remain in it. even if the
person believes it to be false? Hmm.I don't agree with that.

Another thing really bothered me.there is no strict concept of hell in
Judaism.then why be goood? Why not sin? If I don't have fear of strict
punishment, then why should I be moral?

. According to what you are saying on men's equality. You mean that you can freely leave Islam and Islam will be okay with that?

. About hell, Don't you think it is rather insincere to follow God out of fear of hell? Don't you think God notice? Don't you think God cares wether we are following Him out of sincere love or just hoping to escape Hell? Considering all these, it is clear that fear can not produce morality. Fear produces hypocrisy toward God and hypocrisy is immoral. Only love produce morality.

[Dagless]

. According to what you are saying on men's equality. You mean that you can freely leave Islam and Islam will be okay with that?

. About hell, Don't you think it is rather insincere to follow God out of fear of hell? Don't you think God notice? Don't you think God cares wether we are following Him out of sincere love or just hoping to escape Hell? Considering all these, it is clear that fear can not produce morality. Fear produces hypocrisy toward God and hypocrisy is immoral. Only love produce morality.

Why is fear hypocritical but love isn't? People are fearful of doing badly in exams because of the bad consequences of that, does this make them insincere? :S Fear of God isn't even something you should disagree about since it's mentioned many times in the bible too. If God thought fear was immoral why would He tell you to fear him?

[Darth Ultor]

Fear of God and fear of Hell are two different things. If you're following God to earn "Heaven points", then that is not fear of God. Fear of God doesn't mean to be afraid of your own shadow and to forget to live, it's awareness that God is always watching.

[Riana17]

Why is fear hypocritical but love isn't? People are fearful of doing badly in exams because of the bad consequences of that, does this make them insincere? :S Fear of God isn't even something you should disagree about since it's mentioned many times in the bible too. If God thought fear was immoral why would He tell you to fear him?

thanks for replying before me, all I know is that Islam is not complicated and very easy to understand

[Who Am I?]

Salaam Peace be to you Bro,
sorry i didnt reply to the first post.
Honestly none of your posts seem or occur like you are seeking attention but it seems that you are alost person that is trying to find their way in this life , i think many people understand , this is something normal. Please dont have this opinion about yourself or others because many people here actually care and are willing to help you with the knowledge that God has gifted them with. No need to apologize

I hope you find true happiness and inner peace and i hope God guides you to that which is best.

I think sister Flame has very good advice i'd work by it myself.
Yes and it is good that you also want to have a direct relationship with God almighty nothing can give you more inner relief than that.

I hope this helps.

I appreciate that. I was re-reading some of my posts over the last few days and it looked to me like I was trying to seek attention and sympathy, and I don't want to be like that. I used to be like that and I don't want to go back down that road. I know other people out there have far worse problems than my own unhappiness, so I had to take a step back and re-evaluate myself. So I am just waiting for God to lead me in the right direction, and I figure the rest of the stuff I can worry about later. I need to find a comfortable place first, where I feel welcome and feel like I belong. Maybe that will be Christianity and maybe it will be Islam. But it is not for me to decide.

[brmm]

To make it short, my main issues with Christianity are Jesus and the Trinity. My main issues with Islam so far (I am still finding out about Islam) are dogs and alcohol.

Hi Pre-Brother :)
Pls do u allow me to say my opinion: my understanding for ur comments is that:
Your problem with Christianity is from the Faith side, because it is just in the core of the faith so there is no way that the Christian will change it to match u.
While ur problem with Islam is from your side, because u have some weakness against alcohol. The dogs is not a big problem as u think. If it was a priority Allah will mentioned it in the Holy Quran.
As a solution, u can always pray in a different room away from the dogs, and if u have a garden, then it will much easer. Many Muslims, specially the one who live in farm suburbs have dogs as guards.

Allah bless u and keep the Satan away from u inshallah. Amen.

BRMM

[Riana17]

Hi Pre-Brother :)
Pls do u allow me to say my opinion: my understanding for ur comments is that:
Your problem with Christianity is from the Faith side, because it is just in the core of the faith so there is no way that the Christian will change it to match u.
While ur problem with Islam is from your side, because u have some weakness against alcohol. The dogs is not a big problem as u think. If it was a priority Allah will mentioned it in the Holy Quran.
As a solution, u can always pray in a different room away from the dogs, and if u have a garden, then it will much easer. Many Muslims, specially the one who live in farm suburbs have dogs as guards.

Allah bless u and keep the Satan away from u inshallah. Amen.

BRMM

replied beautifully, i wish i can reply like this one day
i mean im not a writer so i think i cant deliver my words the way it should be

salam

[brmm]

replied beautifully, i wish i can reply like this one day
i mean im not a writer so i think i cant deliver my words the way it should be

salam

Allah bless u sister inshallah, who said I am better than u ?!
When u pray, ask Allah Sobhanaho to give u the wisdom.
Q02:269"He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding."

[Riana17]

Allah bless u sister inshallah, who said I am better than u ?!
When u pray, ask Allah Sobhanaho to give u the wisdom.
Q02:269"He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding."

Salam & shokran for the inspiration

[Who Am I?]

Hi Pre-Brother :)
Pls do u allow me to say my opinion: my understanding for ur comments is that:
Your problem with Christianity is from the Faith side, because it is just in the core of the faith so there is no way that the Christian will change it to match u.
While ur problem with Islam is from your side, because u have some weakness against alcohol. The dogs is not a big problem as u think. If it was a priority Allah will mentioned it in the Holy Quran.
As a solution, u can always pray in a different room away from the dogs, and if u have a garden, then it will much easer. Many Muslims, specially the one who live in farm suburbs have dogs as guards.

Allah bless u and keep the Satan away from u inshallah. Amen.

BRMM

Well I'm not worried about that part right now. I figure God will lead me to where He wants me to be. I was worrying about trivial things too much and not really focusing on God as much as I should have been. So now I will wait and see where He leads me. It may take a while before I find the place where I am comfortable and feel like I belong. But I will get there one day, inshallah.

[Riana17]

Well I'm not worried about that part right now. I figure God will lead me to where He wants me to be. I was worrying about trivial things too much and not really focusing on God as much as I should have been. So now I will wait and see where He leads me. It may take a while before I find the place where I am comfortable and feel like I belong. But I will get there one day, inshallah.

wow i love it!!! u used the word inshallah!!!!
wow im inspired

[Who Am I?]

wow i love it!!! u used the word inshallah!!!!
wow im inspired

Yeah, I've been picking up some Arabic words and phrases here and there that I am trying to incorporate into my normal vocabulary. Hopefully to replace all of those curse words I am fond of letting loose.

[Riana17]

Yeah, I've been picking up some Arabic words and phrases here and there that I am trying to incorporate into my normal vocabulary. Hopefully to replace all of those curse words I am fond of letting loose.

inshallah, ill pray for that
that would be a healthy step

[Pygoscelis]

Well you know brother you never know where this world takes you , really you might be an atheist now and turn out to be somethings totally different in the future , but hopefully something good.

This is true and applies to all of us. Perhaps years form now you will be the atheist and I will be the muslim lol

[Amigo]

Why is fear hypocritical but love isn't? People are fearful of doing badly in exams because of the bad consequences of that, does this make them insincere? :S Fear of God isn't even something you should disagree about since it's mentioned many times in the bible too. If God thought fear was immoral why would He tell you to fear him?

Love is never hypocritical, it is lust/love which is hypocritical. The kind of love which is associatedwith fear is not pure love but lust. Lust goes hand in hand with violence and deceit and need. But love goes with peace and sincerity and contentement.
Fear of doing bad in exam can lead to cheating. But love of knowledge and truth, will not.
The Holiness of God despise corrupt things like deceit. It is fear to offend God's goodness, not fear of punishement. Morality is love of goodness, truth, and beauty. Immorality is disrespect of goodness, truth, and beauty.

[Who Am I?]

inshallah, ill pray for that
that would be a healthy step

Thank you.

Actually I was inspired in this by a video I saw on Qu'ran Weekly channel at YouTube last night. Nouman Ali Khan was talking about your words and how speech is the greatest gift from Allah and how we should not taint that by usng ugly speech. There is a similar lesson in the Bible in Proverbs (and one in the New Testament, but yeah). Even though I am not a Muslim (yet), it still is a good principle to live by. I will admit that I have become overly fond of cursing over the years. I could make sailors blush. It is one thing (of many) that I am trying to work on...

[Perseveranze]

Why is that relevant?

I am suprised that after you being here so long how limited your knowledge still is on Islam. The relevance of the points she makes hold weight.

1. Muslims believe that God did reveal the Bible, but it was changed/altered by man. So if in the Bible you find similarities such as (the way Muslims pray) and you see Muslims pray in such a way, theres definitly something to take into consideration in that. Especially when Christians do not pray in similar fashion. She's just trying to point out Christianities flaws and why Islam makes more sense to her, valid points all of them.

Just thought i'd point that out, my best advice to you would be to try and humble yourself more so you can understand Islam better.

[Riana17]

Thank you.

Actually I was inspired in this by a video I saw on Qu'ran Weekly channel at YouTube last night. Nouman Ali Khan was talking about your words and how speech is the greatest gift from Allah and how we should not taint that by usng ugly speech. There is a similar lesson in the Bible in Proverbs (and one in the New Testament, but yeah). Even though I am not a Muslim (yet), it still is a good principle to live by. I will admit that I have become overly fond of cursing over the years. I could make sailors blush. It is one thing (of many) that I am trying to work on...

There are many changes in me since i become Muslim
i become more humble
i live more simple
i do not care what others think about me (i mean i am responsible but u cant expct everyone to like u)
i appreciate my life better than before
i pity ignorant people - bcoz i know they are lack of guidance /knowledge (b4 i hate them)
little did i know everything else followed
mood swings, bad temper etc

so what i mean is that, the changes Islam did to my life is something i didnt plan. it happend bcoz there is better understanding about everything

[Dagless]

Love is never hypocritical, it is lust/love which is hypocritical. The kind of love which is associatedwith fear is not pure love but lust.

This is only opinion. I could just as easily say the kind of love which isn't associated with fear is not pure love, but ignorance.

Fear of doing bad in exam can lead to cheating.

Usually it leads to people revising.

The Holiness of God despise corrupt things like deceit.

As I mentioned; the bible also says to fear God. How would you explain this if fear is deceit?

[Amigo]

This is only opinion. I could just as easily say the kind of love which isn't associated with fear is not pure love, but ignorance.



Usually it leads to people revising.



As I mentioned; the bible also says to fear God. How would you explain this if fear is deceit?

You can make a book say whatever you want, no so for God though

[Dagless]

You can make a book say whatever you want, no so for God though

You must be the only Christian I know who doesn't follow the bible then (your profile says Christian).

edit: I was going to try and find some quotes but it looks like someone has done it for me: http://www.feargod.net/verses.php

[Amigo]

Christianity is not about following the Bible, you can't follow a book. It is about following Christ.

[جوري]

It is about following Christ.

christ said to worship god, not worship Jesus..

best,

[Dagless]

Christianity is not about following the Bible, you can't follow a book. It is about following Christ.

How do you follow Christ? Other than the bible what record of his words/actions do Christians have?

[Amigo]

How do you follow Christ? Other than the bible what record of his words/actions do Christians have?

Christ is alive and present to his people.

[جوري]

Christ is alive and present to his people.

That is a non-answer..

best,

[Darth Ultor]

I'm actually only culturally Jewish. Religiously I'm a Theist. Why? Because every religion says their way is the right way "and screw everyone else".

[Dagless]

I'm actually only culturally Jewish. Religiously I'm a Theist. Why? Because every religion says their way is the right way "and screw everyone else".

Multiple choice questions must be a nightmare for you.

[Darth Ultor]

Actually, this is an obvious none of the above.

[Aprender]

I'm actually only culturally Jewish. Religiously I'm a Theist. Why? Because every religion says their way is the right way "and screw everyone else".

I never really got the "screw everyone else" vibe from Islam. I find Islam humbling because its followers do not assume that they'll automatically get paradise just because they are Muslim. Reading the Qur'an I did not get the vibe that just because someone is a Christian or Jew that they'd be screwed either...

[Darth Ultor]

I never really got the "screw everyone else" vibe from Islam. I find Islam humbling because its followers do not assume that they'll automatically get paradise just because they are Muslim. Reading the Qur'an I did not get the vibe that just because someone is a Christian or Jew that they'd be screwed either...

"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." -Qur'an 3:85-

This I do not believe.

[Who Am I?]

One thing that does bother me about Christianity are all of these "pseudo-Christians" that pray the prayer to accept Jesus and then go do whatever they want. I have to admit, I was one for a long time. Do whatever you want and not walk the walk and don't worry about it because hey, you have Jesus. You don't have to do anything God tells you because hey, you have Jesus. Go to church once, maybe twice a week, and the rest of the time you do what you want because hey, you have Jesus.

That's why I eventually quit going to church the first time. I was sickened by the lies and the hypocrisy.

[Ramadhan]

"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." -Qur'an 3:85- This I do not believe.

You quoted the ayat (in english) without having full understanding.
By "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam", it means if someone is properly introduced to Islam, and see that Islam is the truth, and yet still reject it for whatever reason (eg. because they follow the religion of their forefathers, because they don't like some rules, etc), then they will be among the losers.
Example: the christians who come to this forum, and have been shown that worshiping a man god is wrong and endless evidence have been presented to them that their belief is false, and evidence for the truth of Islam have been presented, and yet they reject all evidence and hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what-have-you, do you not think they the ones who wrong themselves?

[Pygoscelis]

That is a non-answer..

No, its not a non-answer. If it were true it would answer the query. Problem is it is an answer with no evidence whatsoever and that makes little rational sense. Christ is alive to his followers? So, does he appear in dreams? Does he hang out in your basement? Or is he just a warm fuzzy feeling? Regardless of how he "lives in the lives of Christians", if he does, then why do all these christians disagree with each other about what he teaches? Is he telling different people different things on purpose? If you truly have more than the bible to go on and can hear him directly in your lives then really.... why would we see you all going in different directions? Shouldn't it be uniform?

[Pygoscelis]

Example: the christians who come to this forum, and have been shown that worshiping a man god is wrong and endless evidence have been presented to them that their belief is false, and evidence for the truth of Islam have been presented, and yet they reject all evidence and hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what-have-you, do you not think they the ones who wrong themselves?

No more than the muslims who the Christians invite to "take Jesus as their personal savior and show endless evidence that their muslim belief is false, and the truth of Christainity but hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what have you"" etc...

And certainly no more than us evil atheists who are "shown that god exists and the truth of theism but hang on to their baseless lack of belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what have you" etc...

That kind of reasoning really does run in all directions.

[Aprender]

You quoted the ayat (in english) without having full understanding. By "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam", it means if someone is properly introduced to Islam, and see that Islam is the truth, and yet still reject it for whatever reason (eg. because they follow the religion of their forefathers, because they don't like some rules, etc), then they will be among the losers. Example: the christians who come to this forum, and have been shown that worshiping a man god is wrong and endless evidence have been presented to them that their belief is false, and evidence for the truth of Islam have been presented, and yet they reject all evidence and hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what-have-you, do you not think they the ones who wrong themselves?

Thank you for making that clarification for him.

Shouldn't it be uniform?

Yes, it should.

No more than the muslims who the Christians invite to "take Jesus as their personal savior and show endless evidence that their muslim belief is false, and the truth of Christainity but hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what have you"" etc...

A bit of a stretch. Even you have to admit that. Being a member on this forum for as long as you have I'm sure you've seen some of the arguments that Christians have put up towards the Muslims, atheists and members of other faiths here and either got confused from the lack of logic and clarity, rolled your eyes or shook your head at it. I know I have and I'm one of them.

That kind of reasoning really does run in all directions.

I have to disagree with you there. I feel that it's not so easy to make a generalization like that. As an atheist, if you don't believe, then you don't believe. I'd rather have ya admit that than sit here and lie to yourself about it. Just because you don't believe doesn't make you evil or arrogant, you just don't believe. Maybe you want to believe but it just hasn't clicked yet. Either way, what is going to happen is going to happen and I'm not going to sit here and stare you down waiting for you to join us theists or call you names because you haven't done it fast enough. It's your life. If you're content then you're content but I am happy seeing that you have a desire and curiosity to learn or else you wouldn't be here on this forum for as long as you have been learning about Islam.

I can pray that you continue to have guidance, peace and happiness. You are my brother in humanity no matter what and I am apologizing on behalf of those who have ever made you out to be "evil". They know not what is in your heart and have no right to make those assumptions about who you are.

[Aprender]

That's why I eventually quit going to church the first time. I was sickened by the lies and the hypocrisy.

Yes, the talking points of it all were quite sickening for me too but I tried my best not to let that bother me. I wasn't going to let the actions of others turn me away from my faith. Just because they weren't doing right didn't mean that anything was wrong with my religion. Then the problem that I had was that I genuinely attempted to walk the walk to the best of my ability and got taunted for it. When I asked for clarification about concepts and verses that I did not understand and did not make any sense I suddenly was possessed and misguided. An infidel. =/

As you said in one of your earlier posts, you like to learn. I do too and my Christian faith was something that I held on to dearly throughout my teenage years. In my aim to become a better Christian I ended up here learning more and more about Islam and I like what I learned. For so long I was afraid to fall and surrender so I just kept running away from it but you can only run away from something for so long. I am too intrigued by Islam.

[Riana17]

You quoted the ayat (in english) without having full understanding.
By "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam", it means if someone is properly introduced to Islam, and see that Islam is the truth, and yet still reject it for whatever reason (eg. because they follow the religion of their forefathers, because they don't like some rules, etc), then they will be among the losers.
Example: the christians who come to this forum, and have been shown that worshiping a man god is wrong and endless evidence have been presented to them that their belief is false, and evidence for the truth of Islam have been presented, and yet they reject all evidence and hang on to their baseless belief out of arrogance, whims, desires, what-have-you, do you not think they the ones who wrong themselves?

Salam to all
Masha Allah this is an early breakfast!!!
Alhamdollelah rabil alamin,,, really this site is full of wise people

[Riana17]

I never really got the "screw everyone else" vibe from Islam. I find Islam humbling because its followers do not assume that they'll automatically get paradise just because they are Muslim. Reading the Qur'an I did not get the vibe that just because someone is a Christian or Jew that they'd be screwed either...

You give tears to my eyes Madam
yes right, thats a major point i was attracted to Islam
just bcoz we are Muslim doesnt mean we will go to heaven, bcoz Allah clarifies that it is Him Alone who can see what's in our heart and Who can judge Us,, hence for a true believer "he/she can only continue to live the way of Islam,,,, wait and pray"
salam

[brmm]

Actually I was inspired in this by a video I saw on Qu'ran Weekly channel at YouTube last night. Nouman Ali Khan was talking about your words and how speech is the greatest gift from Allah and how we should not taint that by usng ugly speech.

I have listened to this brother, he is so good, mashallah, in his way of thinking.

Inshallah Allah will guide u to the right path soon. Amen

BRMM

[brmm]

One thing that does bother me about Christianity are all of these "pseudo-Christians" that pray the prayer to accept Jesus and then go do whatever they want. I have to admit, I was one for a long time. Do whatever you want and not walk the walk and don't worry about it because hey, you have Jesus. You don't have to do anything God tells you because hey, you have Jesus. Go to church once, maybe twice a week, and the rest of the time you do what you want because hey, you have Jesus.

That's why I eventually quit going to church the first time. I was sickened by the lies and the hypocrisy.

Hi Pre-Brother,
Maybe I should mentioned this verse of the Quran for u concerning what u have said above:
99:04 "That Day, it will report its news"
99:05 "Because your Lord has commanded it"
99:06 "That Day, the people will depart separated [into categories] to be shown [the result of] their deeds"
99:07 "So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it"
99:08 "And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it"

BRMM

[brmm]

I never really got the "screw everyone else" vibe from Islam. I find Islam humbling because its followers do not assume that they'll automatically get paradise just because they are Muslim. Reading the Qur'an I did not get the vibe that just because someone is a Christian or Jew that they'd be screwed either...

U have a Christian mind and a Muslim heart :)

BRMM

[Riana17]

One thing that does bother me about Christianity are all of these "pseudo-Christians" that pray the prayer to accept Jesus and then go do whatever they want. I have to admit, I was one for a long time. Do whatever you want and not walk the walk and don't worry about it because hey, you have Jesus. You don't have to do anything God tells you because hey, you have Jesus. Go to church once, maybe twice a week, and the rest of the time you do what you want because hey, you have Jesus.

That's why I eventually quit going to church the first time. I was sickened by the lies and the hypocrisy.

indeed
Subhanallah for seeing that

[brmm]

Christ is alive and present to his people.

Jesus is alive, it means he will die... GOD will never die.
Jesus presents to his people.... GOD presents to all people.

BRMM

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Editttttt....

[Amigo]

No, its not a non-answer. If it were true it would answer the query. Problem is it is an answer with no evidence whatsoever and that makes little rational sense. Christ is alive to his followers? So, does he appear in dreams? Does he hang out in your basement? Or is he just a warm fuzzy feeling? Regardless of how he "lives in the lives of Christians", if he does, then why do all these christians disagree with each other about what he teaches? Is he telling different people different things on purpose? If you truly have more than the bible to go on and can hear him directly in your lives then really.... why would we see you all going in different directions? Shouldn't it be uniform?

I should have said: 'true Christians are alive to Him'.
Divisions is a sign of desintegration and desintegration is a sickness and sign of death.
God is one, those who are in God are One.
You will notice that the more people rely on dead letters the more divided they get
The very tendancy to rely on a book as prime foundation of faith betrays the faith in God who should be himself pesent.
Followers of books make it seem like God went on journey far far away.
The Church was running before the NT.
The Church compiled the Bible.
It is the Church that knows the Bible not the Bible that knows the Church.
But from the beginning, there have been all kinds of Jesus's funs who manage to rise parallel churches and get themselves the Christian tag. Their divisions testifies to their relationship with the one God.

[May Ayob]

"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." -Qur'an 3:85- This I do not believe.

Salaam Bro, Umm, i dont want be be mean or anything but , Islam is not the religion that claims , that its followers are the children and the beloved of God Almighty, nor is it the religion that claims that because you are from a certain clan you are God's chosen people, and if God puts you in hell then it will only be for several days and you will be destined to heaven.

I think you need to ask a scholar about this verse in the Holy Quran , because it doesn't really mean that whosoever is Not a muslim will be destined to hell fire and God will reject all their actions, the re was hadith narrated about the prophet PBUH that said ( and please my muslim brothers and sisters correct me if i am wrong) that there was a woman who didn't even belive in God's existance or didn't follow any religion but she had an elderly mother and she used to take care of her very well and she used to even carry her ontop of her back, God has accepted her work, ( her dutifullnes to her mother) and made her one of the dwellers of paradise.

There are also many hadith that say that it is not the worshiping of God almighty that will take people to heaven , it is God's mercy because not all of our actions are truly done in sincerity.
Also a muslim never takes his/her faith for granted and goes around telling people that they are going to heaven or hell just because they are muslim as you can see in the reply of Bro Pgycestosis- srry if i misspelled your name( i also think your reply was very wise that is why i didnt reply ):) but i hope i dont end up like that , No one can assure themselves to be saved, there is also another hadith which is very compatible with this concept because it says that a man keeps doing the work of people of will dwell in Jannah (Heaven or Paradise) untill fate goes against them and they start doing the actions of people who are going to hell fire, very similarly a man keeps doing the actions of people who are going to Hell , but fate goes by and they end up doing the actions of people who will be dwelling Jannah, and He/She will be dwellers of therein.

I also have some other verses of the Holy Quran i hope you consider

:

1.62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .- The Chapter of Albaqarah.
This verse is clear of the fact that Whomsoever beleives in God and does good deeds, they will have a good destiny God willing- and it represents Religous Tolerance.

2.113. Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allâh during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer.
3.115. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allâh knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

4.128. Not for you (O Muhammad SAW, but for Allâh) is the decision; whether He turns in mercy to (pardons) them or punishes them; verily, they are the Zâlimûn (polytheists, disobedients, and wrong-doers, etc.). Judgement is Only the Right of God almighty no one else not even the prophets.

5.199. And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allâh and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allâh. They do not sell the Verses of Allâh for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allâh is Swift in account.

6.135. And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham), Hanifa [Islâmic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allâh (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (those who worshipped others along with Allâh - see V.2:105)."- It says Ibrahim's PBUH - That means to worship and only Belive in God.

7..( It will not be in accordance with your desires (Muslims), nor those of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), whosoever works evil, will have the recompense thereof, and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allâh.


And there are many other verses and traditions that tell the Muslim and the Non-muslim that whatever deed you have done whther Good or bad will be recorded and Everyone will be held Accountable, No Muslim who follows the prophet Muhammed or the Teachings of the Quran will come out and say i will go to heaven and you will go to hell , this is one thing the Muslim is well aware that it Causes the Anger of God because how can He/ or She dare and decide who will go to heaven or hell and as i said before no one can be assured what their final destination is.

I hope this helped, and was beneficial.

Peace be to all.

i also hope my brothers and sister would help me and correct me if i was wrong this is my understanding which i hope you respect.

[Who Am I?]

A lot of posts in here since I've been gone. Not sure I can response to each one individually, so here is a collective effort.

I too was guilty of being a "psuedo-Christian" for a long time. I went to church and all, but I still did whatever I wanted to do because hey, I had Jesus. Eventually the guilt sickened me to the point that I quit going to church altogether. Then I got angry with God. "How can you allow me to exist when I don't even worship you like I'm supposed to?!" So I became an atheist for a while. Eventually I realized that there is a higher power, but I didn't know who or what it was. I still did whatever I wanted though and never gave a thought to my heart and mind.

Which brings me to here. I'm tired of my life as it is and I don't like who I have become. Something needs to change and that's what I am trying to do now. I don't care about Jews vs. Palestinians. I don't care about Christians vs. Muslims. I just want to be someone I like and be happy with my life.

[UUSeeker]

. . . I don't care about Jews vs. Palestinians. I don't care about Christians vs. Muslims. I just want to be someone I like and be happy with my life.

I understand. I grew up Christian, but could not rectify the teachings with my conscience. I am now a UU, and feel not only happy, but fulfilled.

Peace,

Seeker

[IAmZamzam]

I don't know if I could possibly list all the reasons myself! Let's see...Here are just a few right off the top of my head:

1. Christianity is the only religion whose very core doctrine is an incoherent and illogical mess of words that necessitates a lot of alternate theories (substitution, ransom, etc.) about what the most critical detail of all happens to be. And of course none of those theories holds any water whatsoever. It is a religion built around words rather than beliefs, and the beliefs themselves are invariably just varying definitions of the jargon.
2. The Bible is so full of errors, evils attributed to God, Jesus (P) and all the core prophets, and stitched-together patchworks of different manuscripts, that even being the most extreme non-inerrantist was an impossible strain on my conscience for all the self-dishonesty required.
3. There is never any need for God to come incarnate when dying as a man would accomplish nothing (see #1) that a human prophet could not just as easily accomplish. Especially when you consider God's omnipotence. I have never seen any counter-argument to this notion which makes sense and does not limit God's abilities (like Jack Chick's ants analogy).
4. The Gospels, even as they are, start off relatively consistent with each other (for the most part, anyway, and on most important issues) and then get more and more contradictory and confused the further and further you get into their key events, the accounts of the passion being very contradictory and the accounts of the resurrection part being ludicrously contradictory.
5. Whenever there are parallels between the Koran and the Bible (not just when it comes to stories either, although that is indeed frequent), the Koran will invariably come out as containing a less blasphemous, more believable, more righteous, or more logical version of things, going all the further toward confirming its being the true book of God.

[Riana17]

Salam Mr Yahya
I have to add that, bible talks that our Creator got tired, I mean He rested on the 7th day of Creating the WORLD. This is not attributable to a REAL GOD

In addition, Sex occurs frequently in the Bible, how could one say these are the words of God? Even some prophet were accused of adultery or something!!!

Istighfar

[Who Am I?]

Salam Mr Yahya
I have to add that, bible talks that our Creator got tired, I mean He rested on the 7th day of Creating the WORLD. This is not attributable to a REAL GOD

In addition, Sex occurs frequently in the Bible, how could one say these are the words of God? Even some prophet were accused of adultery or something!!!

Istighfar

Yeah, that whole "rest on the 7th day" thing used to bother me. Just like the weird Trinity and divinity of Jesus.

[Riana17]

Yeah, that whole "rest on the 7th day" thing used to bother me. Just like the weird Trinity and divinity of Jesus.

Salam

Sorry i already mentioned the Sex thing but what I would like to add is how could the writers of the bible (OF COURSE NOT WORD OF GOD) talks about prophet engaging adultery & so on

I pray that people would read+analyze

[Who Am I?]

Salam

Sorry i already mentioned the Sex thing but what I would like to add is how could the writers of the bible (OF COURSE NOT WORD OF GOD) talks about prophet engaging adultery & so on

I pray that people would read+analyze

Yeah I always thought it weird that I was always taught "no sex before marriage" but then the Bible is full of stories involving sex. I thought it unfair that that God would tease me like that.

[Riana17]

Yeah I always thought it weird that I was always taught "no sex before marriage" but then the Bible is full of stories involving sex. I thought it unfair that that God would tease me like that.

:)
well I am sure that our ONE TRUE GOD is not the FORMER

[Ramadhan]

Sorry i already mentioned the Sex thing but what I would like to add is how could the writers of the bible (OF COURSE NOT WORD OF GOD) talks about prophet engaging adultery & so on

Not only engaging in adultery, but a prophet who had sex with his own daughters!
astaghfirullah!

[Ramadhan]

I don't know if I could possibly list all the reasons myself! Let's see...Here are just a few right off the top of my head:

1. Christianity is the only religion whose very core doctrine is an incoherent and illogical mess of words that necessitates a lot of alternate theories (substitution, ransom, etc.) about what the most critical detail of all happens to be. And of course none of those theories holds any water whatsoever. It is a religion built around words rather than beliefs, and the beliefs themselves are invariably just varying definitions of the jargon.
2. The Bible is so full of errors, evils attributed to God, Jesus (P) and all the core prophets, and stitched-together patchworks of different manuscripts, that even being the most extreme non-inerrantist was an impossible strain on my conscience for all the self-dishonesty required.
3. There is never any need for God to come incarnate when dying as a man would accomplish nothing (see #1) that a human prophet could not just as easily accomplish. Especially when you consider God's omnipotence. I have never seen any counter-argument to this notion which makes sense and does not limit God's abilities (like Jack Chick's ants analogy).
4. The Gospels, even as they are, start off relatively consistent with each other (for the most part, anyway, and on most important issues) and then get more and more contradictory and confused the further and further you get into their key events, the accounts of the passion being very contradictory and the accounts of the resurrection part being ludicrously contradictory.
5. Whenever there are parallels between the Koran and the Bible (not just when it comes to stories either, although that is indeed frequent), the Koran will invariably come out as containing a less blasphemous, more believable, more righteous, or more logical version of things, going all the further toward confirming its being the true book of God.

This has to be one of the most concise and clearest list I've read on what is wrong with christianity.

[Riana17]

Salam Brother Ramadan

That is very good point,,, our Sisters & Brothers (non Muslim) must realize this, inshallah

[Who Am I?]

The more I study Islam and the Qu'ran the more I am convinced that I made the right decision to take shahada. I am just starting to learn surah al Fatiha in Arabic, and already I can see the lyrical quality of the original text. That can't be just a coincidence.

[Riana17]

Subhanallah Brother Just A Guy

That is the TRUE WORD OF ONE TRUE CREATOR,,,
Uncomparable

[Grace Seeker]

I do not wish to offend anyone, this is purely my personal opinion and I hope this will benefit others to decide:

1. Catholic was founded by HUMAN - the word christian or catholic will never be found in bible as well as the word "BIBLE" itself
2. Bible is not (purely) words of God, it is from the word BIBLIA that confirms it is collection of (hundreds) of books, which means it is the words of the authors.
God or the prophets were not directly talking to each other. Also the same book has been revised countless times
3. There is Only ONE GOD - this is first 4 out of 10 Commandments of God
4. Countless verses in Bible confirms there is only One God
5. Sex occurs frequently in the bible - this is far attributable to the WORD OF GOD


JESUS in BIBLE:
1. He is not God - if he is God becoz he dont have a father, the right goes more to Adam & Eve whom were created from nothing
2. He didnt die: Bible confirm he was hangry and looking for food (John)
3. He fast, ate, circumsized, sad, upset, chased, hangry, tired, like all human
4. He was praying (the way Muslim prays today)
5. He confirms that the biggest sin a man can commit is believing in Multiple gods

Whereas everyone blv JESUS Died, so if he died, who was God - taking care of this world when he was dead
I dont think that those of Jesus statues is Jesus for real when there was no camera/video etc to support it.

I have like 13pages earlier but I shortlisted the things I could remember for now.

Just sharing, SALAM

The price of tea in China isn't mentioned in the Bible, but I doubt that this is relevant any more than this list is. Though you are wrong with regard to some of your points, such as the suggestion that the word Christian isn't found in the Bible:

• Acts 11:26
  and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
  
• Acts 26:28
  Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
  
• 1 Peter 4:16
  However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
  

And some of your statements while true, don't seem to have much of a point:

Such as the comments that there is only one God. Duh, no user of the Bible has ever said anything different be he Christian or Jew.

And you seem surprised that sex is mentioned in the Bible. Well guess what, God invented it. And when he got done with all of his creation he said it was good. Of course it gets talked about, but the way that God meant for it to be used to bless and the perversions of it so that people might be corrected and warned how not to live.

And then you seem to jump to some pretty fanciful conclusions based on false premises. For instance: you imply that we hold Jesus to be God because he has no earthly father. No, that's not the reason. We get the idea that Jesus is God because he is called exactly that:
--by Thomas, "My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)
--by Peter, "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord (in this context the term equates with calling Jesus God) and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)
--by Paul, "Have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God..." (Philippians 2:5b-6a)


You seem to get the idea that Jesus being hungry proves he didn't die. Do you forget about the part of the story called the resurrection? Or maybe you don't understand that this means that after Jesus had died, that he was brought back to life again. And in that resurrected state he would continue to eat and sleep and all the other things that physical human bodies do.

You seem to think that there is some significance in the fact that Jesus did human activities. You are right. It's called the incarnation.

You try to imply that prayer disproves Jesus could be God. How abusrd! Again, though he was God, on earth he lived as a servant of God, including the need to remain in constant communication with his Father -- which, by the way, is a natural part of the process of how the persons relate to one another in the Godhead.

You falsely claim that Jesus confirms that the biggest sin a man can commit is believing in Multiple gods. In truth Jesus says that all sins can be forgiven but for one, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31).


We don't ask you to agree with Christian teaching or with the Bible. But we do ask you to get it straight and not misrepresent either what we the People of the Book believe or what is to be found in the pages of the Book. "Do not argue with People of the Book unless it is in a most kindly manner, except with those of them who have been unjust. Say, "We believe in revelation which has come down to us, and in that which came doe to you. Our God and your God is one. And it is unto God that we surrender ourselves." (Qur'an 29:46)

[Riana17]

And then you seem to jump to some pretty fanciful conclusions based on false premises. For instance: you imply that we hold Jesus to be God because he has no earthly father. No, that's not the reason. We get the idea that Jesus is God because he is called exactly that:
--by Thomas, "My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)
--by Peter, "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord (in this context the term equates with calling Jesus God) and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)
--by Paul, "Have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God..." (Philippians 2:5b-6a)

Salam
Thanks for the information, its addition to my knowledge. In advance I would like to apologize to all the reader for I am not a good writer but I will try to avoid lots of errors esp in grammar. If I will offend you mr grace seeker,,, in any way I will not apologize coz I will do what it takes to prove that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Inshallah

Bismillah Arahman Araheem

In some translation they didn’t use Christian, instead The Jews called them “Nazarenes or Gallileans” Infact, the Nazarenes were the original Christians, so that caused more confusion to me. I have also read that Ebionites are the true Christians.It is more than complicated to me.

The definition of the word “TRUTH” means simple and constant and should not be changed over times.

How about Christianity, was it confirmed as the religion and Christians being the follower?

Christians define: Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus (NOT THE ONE TRUE CREATOR). Adherents of the Christian faith are known as Christians.

How about the 1st four Commandments? 1. I am the Lord your God 2. You shall have no other gods before me 3. You shall not make for yourself an idol 4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your one God

Son of God:
Didn’t it mention in the bible that Israel, David, Ephraim & Solomon are also son of God?

My common sense view of Prophet Jesus.

With all what I think is right, I will still put myself in your position for me to have a better understanding.
Jesus photo is not at all printed in any Bible, thousand years ago Camera was not invented. Then how can you justify to me that The Statue of Jesus being worship is his real looks, not invented or not a pic of a man who has a huge dream to be worshipped?
Secondly, please go & take two statues & keep them close together. Can you see what I see? Exactly!!! They are not 100% identical in any manner. Eyes, nose … can be little smaller & eyelashes could be less. What am I thinking? You are right again, I knew you are indeed very CLEVER!!! Yesssss! it is MAN- MADE.

As you can see, why there can’t be two President in one country or two dad to a baby? Why? because it would be totally mess!


Now let me give you bullets (not from a gun) to understand your cycle:


1. Jesus was born
2. Jesus was crucified & died for 3days (hmm no need to ask who is GOD DURING these days)
3. Jesus was buried but he come to Life again (some believe he escape from death becoz he look for fish& hangry)
4. Now Jesus is ALIVE after death right?

If you believe he was raised by God to heaven, where is his body? Was it buried again, when & which part of the bible it is mentioned?
Now if his body or soul was raised and Jesus and God is ONE, You must tell me Jesus entered the BODY OF GOD.. Now you are talking, yes should be this way to say they are ONE. But nah
As I said, whattt ??? is that Dragon Ball Z, some kinda FUSION thinggg? Are we still talking about a religion here ???



Let us imagine, there is an earthquake, and Jesus statue break down. Do you still call him Son of God or God, when he can’t even save himself from a little shake? Hold him tight I’m sure you can save HIM. But no no no, a BIG NO NO NO, He can’t save you. So shall we say, you should be the God of this statue coz you were the Protector? Yah im the first one to believe.

I can be little crazy in my imagination, but there is no way I can believe that Our Beloved Prophet Easa is God. And I will share you the ff and please stay online and let’s end this:

Mathew 26:39 Jesus fell with his face to the ground and prayed to God…
If I say One True God, the Creator and Jesus is one – then Mat 26:39 meant that Jesus prayed to himself. Why would he do that, isn’t it when two has the same title, both must have equal rights etc.
Okay, you will not have hard time to convince me to believe if you show me ANY verse from the Bible that the Creator Himself, fell His face to the ground and prayed to Jesus?
No way!!! Instead you will find that Jesus fast for 40days to please his Creator & so on.
What is this some kind of a joke? Please don’t make me nervous, I have a weak heart. Why would you people keep on insisting that God and human can be same in some aspects? One of the Attributes of REAL God must be All HOLY - The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear FROM adversaries.
Here’s another guess for you, Jesus does not have any idea whatsoever that he is gonna pay for all your sins PEOPLE .
Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (sharing you my basic Arabic knowledge: Allah Allah lama tarak tani?) "--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Why on earth your God cried out loud? That is totally nothing but shameless. Why on earth Your God has to pay the sin of HIS CREATION!!! TO whooom he has to pay if He and God is one!!! If there is some kind of bargaining here, dudeee Wake up, both the God and Jesus must share the tears right? Now if you agree with me, then you not Christian anymore, YOU ARE ATHEIST that means half Muslim. Shame shame and forever shameeeee

And I’d like you to guess more, your bible confirms that Jesus and God are not ONE.
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”
Surprisingly to you, your Jesus is very well 100% dead on this very HOUR. No One or even your eyelash will stand on this very moment EXCEPT the ONE TRUE GOD. Subhanallah!!! Takbeerr ya Muslim brothers & Sisters! Allahu Akbar

I really would like to continue replying but you know, I do feel it’s a total waste of time. Don’t tell me to answer all your statement because our Prophets are not like the prophets in your bible, our Prophets (Peace be Upon Them) were role model to all mankind, they were never accused of adultery or anything like that.
No Mister, I am not so surprised that sex is mentioned in the Bible, coz let me tell you, In Islam a husband & wife having sex is equivalent to worshipping our God.
But I didnt expect that many Christian paretns would stop their teenage children from reading bible bcoz of XXX thing in it. what is it some kind of PLAYBOY magazine???

You are well educated enough about Islam seeing your reputation and posts however you are well far from being one of the Believers. And mind you Mr Ramadhan will get lots of blessing for being so patient with you but I am not.

Let me tell you what I learned last night from my dear loving husband’s (May Allah be pleased with him) statement which I am obliged to share to you. A PROUD and a BELIEVER can’t be together. Little did you know that Shaytan prays to Allah more than any of His Creation,,, But why he is where he is right NOW??? Coz he is A BIG BIG PROUD.

My One True God will never guide those who are proud and denial of TRUTH. So hence I would just like to leave you with this Surrah Al Kafirun

Say (O Muhammad): O ye who reject faith! (1)
I worship not that which ye worship. (2)
Nor will you worship that which I worship. (3)
And I will never worship that which you worship. (4)
Nor will you worship that which I worship. (5)
Unto you is your religion and unto me is my religion (Islam). (6)

So in view of the above, My one True God = Allah is not the God you have in your mind

Ma salam and I wish not to waste more time with you.

[Grace Seeker]

Riana, I'm not going to go through all that you wrote piece by piece. I'm not here to convert anyone. But you have said that you are interested in truth. And though there are many different way by which the first followers of Jesus were referred (disciples, followers of the Nazarene, followers of The Way, and other). You made a statement that the word Christian was not found in the Bible. That simply isn't true. You may try to deflect from that reality by pointing to some of the other words that were used. But it doesn't change the facts. The word Christian is used in the Bible. I gave you three different references. It isn't a matter of translation. The text clearly says "Christian" not one of these other suggestions you have made. •Acts 11:26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.The original Greek version of that last sentence reads: "καὶ διδάξαι ὄχλον ἱκανόν, χρηματίσαι τε πρώτως ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς." I've highlighted the last word, which when transliterated into the English alphabet reads "Christianous". I'm pretty sure the translation is self-evident.You also make many statements that assume facts that are not in evidence. And example:

Jesus photo is not at all printed in any Bible, thousand years ago Camera was not invented. Then how can you justify to me that The Statue of Jesus being worship is his real looks, not invented or not a pic of a man who has a huge dream to be worshipped?

It appears you are assuming many things:
1) It appears you are assuming that Christians think that the various statues and paintings of Jesus that one see do in fact represent how Jesus actually looked. -- The truth is, we don't.

2) It appears you are assuming that we worship the statues or pictures. -- The truth is, we don't.

If you believe he was raised by God to heaven, where is his body?

Does not Islam have the same question? Islam teaches that Jesus never died to begin with, but was taken into heaven. Now, if he was raised by God to heaven, where is his body? It is the exact same question, so I don't see why you even need to ask it. It certainly isn't an objection to Christianity.



But like I said, I'm not going to continue to pick you apart. That isn't my goal. Rather, I'm curious as to the purpose behind your post? You are the originator of this thread. You titled it "List why I was not satisfied with my Ex religion." But many of the things that you have posted simply are not a part of the belief and structure of any form of Christianity that I know. Riana, were you once a Christian? Were you actually taught to worship statues and that they actually looked like Jesus? Where did you get the fallacious idea that the word "Christian" wasn't mentioned in the Bible?

Perhaps more importantly, are you actually posting to share with us that with which you were not satisified? Or is there a different purpose? Are the criticisms of Christianity that you have articulated above ones that you actually had at the time, or are they new points you have added since leaving Christianity?

Your posts thus far in this thread seem to be focused more on what's wrong with Christianity, than what you promised in the title of your thread, how Christianity failed to satisfy you. I am actually interested in learning where Christianity failed you if you care to share it.

[جوري]

Now, if he was raised by God to heaven, where is his body?

ummm he was raised with his body!
he didn't die, I think you've been here long enough to know that? Aside from fulfilling his mission upon returning to the Earth he'll also die as every human self shall have a taste of death!


best,

[Riana17]

Salam Mr Grace Seeker

I do, I really do = not like to waste my time, if what I wrote is not enough reason to you why Christianity didnt truly appeal to me, then sorry I have no further answers to your Questions. I told you I could be mistaken in some, blame it to many translation of Bible or my lack of understanding, but you cannot deny that BIBLE is full of contradictions.

You are more educated than me in Islam & in Christianity & even more, but the problem is that you are making things complicated.
Life is so simple, truth must be simple, pls let's not repeat all these,,,no need to go back and present flowery words & so on.
Its either you accept that Islam is the truth or you dont,,,why you're still here in this forum after all your participation if you are not trying to imply something... it's not gonna be a place for you,you must be in christian forum and help atleast one Christian to attend the mass once a week

I hope everyone can humble themselves before death, bcoz I know, this is the top qualification of true Guidance
Masalam

[Who Am I?]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the things that drew me to Islam are the simplicity of it, and the fact that I always felt like God was leading me this way. I feel at peace with myself since I took shahada, and that is the main thing for me: feeling at peace with who I am and where my life is going. I haven't been able to say that for a long time... perhaps not ever.

I have nothing against Christianity or Christians (doctrinal issues aside). Many of my friends and family are Christians. I just never felt like I really belonged in a Christian church. I never felt like I was home like I do when I go to the masjid. For me, that's what it's all about: feeling like I belong somewhere and like I actually matter to someone. Being a Muslim now makes me want to become a better person, for myself, for everyone around me, and for Allah. I never could say that when I went to Christian churches.

[Amigo]

What I consider top sign of true guidance is humility before God (not death) and walking in sincerity and absolute trust in the love of God.
If one does not know something, the humblest thing to do is to talk about what they are certain about and not go on spreading lies about others. No lie ever please God. Lies are always first signs of wrong guidance.

[Riana17]

What I consider top sign of true guidance is humility before God (not death) and walking in sincerity and absolute trust in the love of God.
If one does not know something, the humblest thing to do is to talk about what they are certain about and not go on spreading lies about others. No lie ever please God. Lies are always first signs of wrong guidance.

of course you are entitled to your opinion
you may be right but i didnt say NO. 1 sign
besides humility = condition of humbleness
of course who said we are spreading lies here? no real muslims likes lies

[Riana17]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the things that drew me to Islam are the simplicity of it, and the fact that I always felt like God was leading me this way. I feel at peace with myself since I took shahada, and that is the main thing for me: feeling at peace with who I am and where my life is going. I haven't been able to say that for a long time... perhaps not ever.

I have nothing against Christianity or Christians (doctrinal issues aside). Many of my friends and family are Christians. I just never felt like I really belonged in a Christian church. I never felt like I was home like I do when I go to the masjid. For me, that's what it's all about: feeling like I belong somewhere and like I actually matter to someone. Being a Muslim now makes me want to become a better person, for myself, for everyone around me, and for Allah. I never could say that when I went to Christian churches.

Salam you are right brother
and we are all happy for you, u know that
it goes like this, if you are good, you are good for yourself
it you are bad, you are bad for your self

i would like to clarify that i have nothing against Christians, i am talking about the teachings/interpretation etc
definitely i dont hate a single christian or hindu, atheist etc

[Who Am I?]

What I consider top sign of true guidance is humility before God (not death) and walking in sincerity and absolute trust in the love of God.
If one does not know something, the humblest thing to do is to talk about what they are certain about and not go on spreading lies about others. No lie ever please God. Lies are always first signs of wrong guidance.

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but if I don't know something, I'll be the first to tell you. This is precisely why I avoid posting much in threads like this, because I don't have the knowledge or experience yet to really join the conversation with anything contructive. I hate liars and try to avoid being one whenever possible.

[Riana17]

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but if I don't know something, I'll be the first to tell you. This is precisely why I avoid posting much in threads like this, because I don't have the knowledge or experience yet to really join the conversation with anything contructive. I hate liars and try to avoid being one whenever possible.

cool down bro, i think he is talking about me, you are a good guy
let all the bad guys attack me lol
i wear bulletproof lol

[Who Am I?]

cool down bro, i think he is talking about me, you are a good guy
let all the bad guys attack me lol
i wear bulletproof lol

Well that's still a heavy accusation though, to say that someone is lying without naming who or what evidence they have.

[Amigo]

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but if I don't know something, I'll be the first to tell you. This is precisely why I avoid posting much in threads like this, because I don't have the knowledge or experience yet to really join the conversation with anything contructive. I hate liars and try to avoid being one whenever possible.

Sounds good. Just to precise for me that I am not saying that I hate anyone. I only hate lies and all falsehood.

[Who Am I?]

Sounds good. Just to precise for me that I am not saying that I hate anyone. I only hate lies and all falsehood.

Then we at least agree on that much.

:wa:

[Just_A_Girl13]

let all the bad guys attack me lol i wear bulletproof lol

Not that it's really my place, but I'd say it's probably unnecessary for anyone to "attack" anyone else....

[Riana17]

Okay ya Mr Amigo ( i hope i didnt sound sweet lol)

do not worry no lies no lies, anything else

i want to dedicate this forum now to mr grace seeker, ill sleep and hopefully inshallah when i wake up tomorrow i have a big breakfast from him
so long, nite yall

big salam

[FS123]

Christianity is not about following the Bible, you can't follow a book. It is about following Christ.

But Christ said to fear God. This are Jesus (p) words:

Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

[Amigo]

But Christ said to fear God. This are Jesus (p) words:

I am not very sure the point you are trying to communicate.
This is what I was trying to say:
We don't believe in Christ because of the Bible, we believe in the Bible because of Christ, and we believe in Christ because we receive his Holy Spirit. It is imposible for anyone to understand Christ without the Holy Spirit.

Christ comes first. Then the Bible can make sense. One can not understand the Bible without the Spirit of Christ in him, teaching him how to grasp God's Word in human words.

About the quote of Matthew. Holy fear keeps us in trusting God always because He loves us. God's love is like a fire. It burns everything that is corrupt and in falsehood. It is capable of destroying both body and soul when they are corrupt by falsehood.
As you already know by human experience, love does not go along with falsehood.
You have seen how people hate to be deceived, escpecially by their friends, spouse, parents. You have seen relationship breaking because of abuse of truth/trust in love.
All this is God's judgment on our attitude. That's the wrath of God against falsehood. Fear God then, be truthful, for if losing relationship with a friend can be painful, how painful would it be to lose relationship with God?
Fear of God means love truth with all your heart and mind and soul. Then if your heart and mind and soul are in truth, they will not be corrupt and will be preserved from destruction by the destroying fire of love.
If we delight in love. This fire is Heaven for us.
If we are alergic to love. This fire is Hell for us.
God is everywhere, and God is love.

[Ramadhan]

Sounds good. Just to precise for me that I am not saying that I hate anyone. I only hate lies and all falsehood.

You hate lies and all falsehood?

No you don't. You LOVE lies and all falsehood.
You love your bible, which is full of lies and all falsehood.
Example of outright lies and falsehood in the bible : PERICOPE ADULTERAE (John 7:58-8:11) in which Jesus (as) said "the first sinner cast the first stone"
Bible scholars now agree that pericope adulterae was fabrication, it didn't even exist in codex sinaiticus, alexandrinus and vaticanus, and it was only inserted into latin vulgate bible in ca. 600
So early priests and christian scribes had no qualm about attributing lies to Jesus, a person they worship as GOD!
and so christians today who believe in bible also love the lies attributing to the person the claim as God!

[Grace Seeker]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the things that drew me to Islam are the simplicity of it, and the fact that I always felt like God was leading me this way. I feel at peace with myself since I took shahada, and that is the main thing for me: feeling at peace with who I am and where my life is going. I haven't been able to say that for a long time... perhaps not ever.

I have nothing against Christianity or Christians (doctrinal issues aside). Many of my friends and family are Christians. I just never felt like I really belonged in a Christian church. I never felt like I was home like I do when I go to the masjid. For me, that's what it's all about: feeling like I belong somewhere and like I actually matter to someone. Being a Muslim now makes me want to become a better person, for myself, for everyone around me, and for Allah. I never could say that when I went to Christian churches.

Thanks, Just a Guy, I appreciate your willingness to share that.

[Ramadhan]

As you already know by human experience, love does not go along with falsehood.

I agree. So does this mean love does not go along with bible because it is filled with falsehood? (eg. PERICOPE ADULTERAE).

[Who Am I?]

Thanks, Just a Guy, I appreciate your willingness to share that.

No problem.

Now if I can get my family to accept it as well as you did...

[Riana17]

You hate lies and all falsehood?

No you don't. You LOVE lies and all falsehood.
You love your bible, which is full of lies and all falsehood.
Example of outright lies and falsehood in the bible : PERICOPE ADULTERAE (John 7:58-8:11) in which Jesus (as) said "the first sinner cast the first stone"
Bible scholars now agree that pericope adulterae was fabrication, it didn't even exist in codex sinaiticus, alexandrinus and vaticanus, and it was only inserted into latin vulgate bible in ca. 600
So early priests and christian scribes had no qualm about attributing lies to Jesus, a person they worship as GOD!
and so christians today who believe in bible also love the lies attributing to the person the claim as God!

Yes he love lies not exactly like Mr Grace Seeker
Actually he is in the stage of denial

Oh I do understand now why people go astray

You know i used to pray earlier that all the people will have chance to encounter and further study Islam bcoz this is the one effective way to have a better understanding and be a Muslim inshallah

But now my mind actually changed, nomatter how you study something if you are really not open minded, sorry it will be closed forever.
Salam

[FS123]

I am not very sure the point you are trying to communicate.

Quote is pretty clear, and it goes against your assumptions. According to Christ himself (in Bible) fear is not a bad thing as I've seen some Christians profess. It is an interesting trend, it is just way of promotion, it is reaction to previous history of Christianity, or it is a reaction to the critiques of religion in the west; I don't really know, but it goes against the teaching of Christ himself according to the bible.

We don't believe in Christ because of the Bible, we believe in the Bible because of Christ, and we believe in Christ because we receive his Holy Spirit. It is imposible for anyone to understand Christ without the Holy Spirit.

I understand that (you already mentioned that earlier), but what is your source to know what Christ said? Scripture or does he sends you revelations personally? Normally, people have a source like documents (scripture) or oral traditions.

About the quote of Matthew. Holy fear keeps us in trusting God always because He loves us. God's love is like a fire. It burns everything that is corrupt and in falsehood. It is capable of destroying both body and soul when they are corrupt by falsehood.
As you already know by human experience, love does not go along with falsehood.
You have seen how people hate to be deceived, escpecially by their friends, spouse, parents. You have seen relationship breaking because of abuse of truth/trust in love.
All this is God's judgment on our attitude. That's the wrath of God against falsehood. Fear God then, be truthful, for if losing relationship with a friend can be painful, how painful would it be to lose relationship with God?
Fear of God means love truth with all your heart and mind and soul. Then if your heart and mind and soul are in truth, they will not be corrupt and will be preserved from destruction by the destroying fire of love.
If we delight in love. This fire is Heaven for us.
If we are alergic to love. This fire is Hell for us.
God is everywhere, and God is love.

Now again you are trying to reinterpret it something that is not in the context of the verse or just looping around the issue and saying the same thing in a different way. God has/is love, I'm not arguing against that, but He also punishes which the verse is clearly saying. So it says don't fear people, but fear God -- because people can only kill the body, but God destroy/hurt both the body and soul.

[Riana17]

Quote is pretty clear, and it goes against your assumptions. According to Christ himself (in Bible) fear is not a bad thing as I've seen some Christians profess. It is an interesting trend, it is just way of promotion, it is reaction to previous history of Christianity, or it is a reaction to the critiques of religion in the west; I don't really know, but it goes against the teaching of Christ himself according to the bible.


I understand that you already mentioned that earlier, but what is your source to know what Christ said? Scripture or does he sends you revelations personally? Normally, people have a source like document or oral traditions.


Now again you are trying to reinterpret it something that is not in the context of the verse or just looping around the issue and saying the same thing in a different way. God has/is love, I'm not arguing against that, but He also punishes which the verse is clearly saying. So it says don't fear people, but fear God -- because people can only kill the body, but God destroy/hurt both the body and soul.

Brother you are so patient,,, May Allah bless you
But Mr Ramadhan already give him the answer he wants,
he wants nothing but LIES

[Amigo]

but what is your source to know what Christ said?

Well, let me repeat: The Holy Spirit of God.

Normally, people have a source like documents (scripture) or oral traditions.

That's for the dead. Because they died, their records are necessary to know about the words they left.
God is not dead to Christians. The people of the world killed Him, and so they search for his records here and there to know about Him. They feel a need to know what will happen to them when they die and found Him to the other side where they sent Him when they killed Him. But to the Christian, God is risen and God is with his people always.

[Riana17]

Well, let me repeat: The Holy Spirit of God.





That's for the dead. Because they died, their records are necessary to know about the words they left.
God is not dead to Christians. The people of the world killed Him, and so they search for his records here and there to know about Him. They feel a need to know what will happen to them when they die and found Him to the other side where they sent Him when they killed Him. But to the Christian, God is risen and God is with his people always.

KILLED = DEAD NOT ALIVE BRO

You know, you seems to be good heart and humble somehow.... and that's good side of you,,, if my guess is correct

[Ramadhan]

Well, let me repeat: The Holy Spirit of God.

This is a statement that you keep repeating, but one that you have never been able to explain. In the other thread I also asked you about how you communicate with your dead ancestors because you told me you get knowledge directly from your dead ancestors, and now:
How do you communicate with the holy spirit?
Does he tell you what christ said in your dreams?

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe it's time to close the thread.


Rather than a discussion of why people were not satisfied with their ex religion, this thread seems to be more a let's slam Christianity and mock Christian members thread. Sad that someone who is supposed to be a moderator of these forums and assure that there is no rude conduct should be among the worst of the offenders.

[Hamza Asadullah]

But Christ said to fear God. This are Jesus (p) words:

There's no point quoting from scriptures brother as Amigo clearly rejects his scriptures as he has confirmed on many occasions. To him it matters not what his scriptures say because he knows that NONE of his false beliefs about Jesus or God are backed up by ANY of the teachings of ANY Prophet God or Jesus.

He keeps referring to "love love love" when in actual fact he has rejected worshipping God and instead has resorted to worshipping the creation of God.

Surely he is showing his love to none other than Satan who's ULTIMATE aim is to make mankind worship OTHER than God. So instead of showing love to his lord he has rejected him and instead has turned to Satan.

So Amigo reject your enemy Satan and turn unto your creator and worship him for HE created you to worship him and NOT his creation!

[Just_A_Girl13]

Surely he is showing his love to none other than Satan who's ULTIMATE aim is to make mankind worship OTHER than God.

That's a little harsh. Christians do not love Satan. Amigo's argument may be flawed (and this I agree with) but surely there is no reason to insult him.

[Grace Seeker]

I was looking forward to this thread because I thought it was going to be different than all the other threads that simply boil down to people yelling back and forth at one another: "I'm Right! You're Wrong!"

I thought it was going to be a sharing of the inner drama and angst that people might have felt as they found themselves unsatisfied in one place and how the movement to another brought them something (peace, security, answers to previously unresolved questions) they did not have before. But there is very little of that here. Perhaps I had too high expectations of what this thread could be. There is no sharing. And if people don't want to, or perhaps don't know how, then I guess that is the way it is going to be. But I think we have lost something. Rather than describe the process by which we were first challenged and then changed, this is just one more proselytizing thread.

[Riana17]

I was looking forward to this thread because I thought it was going to be different than all the other threads that simply boil down to people yelling back and forth at one another: "I'm Right! You're Wrong!"

I thought it was going to be a sharing of the inner drama and angst that people might have felt as they found themselves unsatisfied in one place and how the movement to another brought them something (peace, security, answers to previously unresolved questions) they did not have before. But there is very little of that here. Perhaps I had too high expectations of what this thread could be. There is no sharing. And if people don't want to, or perhaps don't know how, then I guess that is the way it is going to be. But I think we have lost something. Rather than describe the process by which we were first challenged and then changed, this is just one more proselytizing thread.

Such a good words to escape
you kept asking why i like islam and why Christianity didnt satisfy me and when answer is presented to you and you are speechless about it, you changed the direction

how about u share us what is the beauty of christianity?
how about you share us, if you are truly satisfied with what you blv

[Riana17]

Maybe it's time to close the thread.


Rather than a discussion of why people were not satisfied with their ex religion, this thread seems to be more a let's slam Christianity and mock Christian members thread. Sad that someone who is supposed to be a moderator of these forums and assure that there is no rude conduct should be among the worst of the offenders.

slam Christianity and mock Christian members thread. Sad that someone who is supposed to be a moderator of these forums and assure that there is no rude conduct should be among the worst of the offenders.[/QUOTE]

[Ramadhan]

I was looking forward to this thread because I thought it was going to be different than all the other threads that simply boil down to people yelling back and forth at one another: "I'm Right! You're Wrong!" I thought it was going to be a sharing of the inner drama and angst that people might have felt as they found themselves unsatisfied in one place and how the movement to another brought them something (peace, security, answers to previously unresolved questions) they did not have before. But there is very little of that here. Perhaps I had too high expectations of what this thread could be. There is no sharing. And if people don't want to, or perhaps don't know how, then I guess that is the way it is going to be. But I think we have lost something. Rather than describe the process by which we were first challenged and then changed, this is just one more proselytizing thread.

Dear pastor GS, I think you are looking at the wrong thread. This thread is titled "List why I'm not satisfied with my ex religion", so that means post a LIST of things/aspect they were not satisfied with their ex religion, and NOT the process of inner drama and angst etc. For that, many of the newly reverts and some members here have posted their stories of HOW they were not satisfied with their ex religion and the process of leaving ex religion to come back to Islam. There you will find great processes, a lot of inner and outer dramas, angst, etc and finally acceptance and submissions to Allah SWT.
Here's some of the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...me-muslim.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...-my-story.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...atchmaker.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...y-shahada.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...7229-well.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...s-here-37.html
etc..

Now, go and read those stories, don't be shy. And you may also ask questions there, who knows it will lead you to the truth.
The common thread from most ex christians that I found was: in christianity, the more you ask questions, instead of answers, the more questions you get, while in Islam everything falls into place beautifully and everything is answered.

[Riana17]

Dear pastor GS, I think you are looking at the wrong thread. This thread is titled "List why I'm not satisfied with my ex religion", so that means post a LIST of things/aspect they were not satisfied with their ex religion, and NOT the process of inner drama and angst etc. For that, many of the newly reverts and some members here have posted their stories of HOW they were not satisfied with their ex religion and the process of leaving ex religion to come back to Islam. There you will find great processes, a lot of inner and outer dramas, angst, etc and finally acceptance and submissions to Allah SWT.
Here's some of the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...me-muslim.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...-my-story.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...atchmaker.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...y-shahada.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...7229-well.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...s-here-37.html
etc..

Now, go and read those stories, don't be shy. And you may also ask questions there, who knows it will lead you to the truth.
The common thread from most ex christians that I found was: in christianity, the more you ask questions, instead of answers, the more questions you get, while in Islam everything falls into place beautifully and everything is answered.

May Allah be pleased with you for your undying love and patience for Pastor GS
Oh Pastor you are one Lucky man

Hope you can see that

My One TRue God loves you truly for He sends many angels in the land for you (not me, i dont look like one Pastor)

Salam

[Ramadhan]

Rather than a discussion of why people were not satisfied with their ex religion, this thread seems to be more a let's slam Christianity and mock Christian members thread. Sad that someone who is supposed to be a moderator of these forums and assure that there is no rude conduct should be among the worst of the offenders.

Let's slam and mock christian members?
I would expect more honesty coming from a pastor. Instead of mocking christians, it was your fellow christian who FIRST accused muslim members of telling lies and falsehoods. Here's the post from Amigo who accused in a sneaky way muslim members of telling lies and falsehoods. Up until and after that point, discussion was generally civilized:

What I consider top sign of true guidance is humility before God (not death) and walking in sincerity and absolute trust in the love of God. If one does not know something, the humblest thing to do is to talk about what they are certain about and not go on spreading lies about others. No lie ever please God. Lies are always first signs of wrong guidance.

Oh, and next time, you can say my name, you know. I don't mind it actually, I'm sure you can say "ramadhan", it's our holy month, where Jesus (pbuh) also fasted for a month, maybe you will be interested to follow the example of a person you worship of God, and start fasting for a whole month with us muslims?

[Just_A_Girl13]

The common thread from most ex christians that I found was: in christianity, the more you ask questions, instead of answers, the more questions you get, while in Islam everything falls into place beautifully and everything is answered.

This is very true. In fact, that is one of the many things I love most about Islam :)

[Grace Seeker]

Such a good words to escape
you kept asking why i like islam and why Christianity didnt satisfy me and when answer is presented to you and you are speechless about it, you changed the direction

how about u share us what is the beauty of christianity?
how about you share us, if you are truly satisfied with what you blv

Riana, these aren't words to escape anything. You've addressed the theme of this thread to the best of your ability. I accept that.

As I understand you, you had questions with regard to Christianity, things that didn't make sense to you in it. And though I would suggest that some of the things you rejected where never actually truly part of Christianity, that was Christianity as you knew it. I don't blame anyone for leaving that which is false behind. It matters not that what you rejected wasn't all genuine Christian teaching but a mixture of some truth, some half-truth, and some ideas that were so entirely misconstrued as to no longer represent Christian truth at all; if you saw it as false, then I understand why you felt the need to look elsewhere. I would have hoped that you would have investigated and found correction to some of your misunderstanding regarding the Christian faith and its teachings. Maybe you even did and it still sounded this other way to you, I don't know. But anyway, your sense of logic led you to Islam. And that is where you are today. You claim you have peace in it. And for that I am glad.

Personally, believing what I believe about the death and resurrection and resurrection of Jesus to be true, I could never find peace within a religion that denies that truth.

As for sharing why I am satified with my Christian faith, I would be most happy to if that is to be permitted. (I thought the forum rules prohibited that type of sharing.) Do you want me to do that in this thread?

[Riana17]

Riana, these aren't words to escape anything. You've addressed the theme of this thread to the best of your ability. I accept that.

As I understand you, you had questions with regard to Christianity, things that didn't make sense to you in it. And though I would suggest that some of the things you rejected where never actually truly part of Christianity, that was Christianity as you knew it. I don't blame anyone for leaving that which is false behind. It matters not that what you rejected wasn't all genuine Christian teaching but a mixture of some truth, some half-truth, and some ideas that were so entirely misconstrued as to no longer represent Christian truth at all; if you saw it as false, then I understand why you felt the need to look elsewhere. I would have hoped that you would have investigated and found correction to some of your misunderstanding regarding the Christian faith and its teachings. Maybe you even did and it still sounded this other way to you, I don't know. But anyway, your sense of logic led you to Islam. And that is where you are today. You claim you have peace in it. And for that I am glad.

Personally, believing what I believe about the death and resurrection and resurrection of Jesus to be true, I could never find peace within a religion that denies that truth.

As for sharing why I am satified with my Christian faith, I would be most happy to if that is to be permitted. (I thought the forum rules prohibited that type of sharing.) Do you want me to do that in this thread?

salam PAstor
If they delete I will leave this forum, just for you
Islam is not bias

[Ramadhan]

Personally, believing what I believe about the death and resurrection and resurrection of Jesus to be true, I could never find peace within a religion that denies that truth.

Was there any live witness to the death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh) that you consider it as absolute truth? You can use the source from your own bible, I would even accept that.

[Hamza Asadullah]

That's a little harsh. Christians do not love Satan. Amigo's argument may be flawed (and this I agree with) but surely there is no reason to insult him.

:sl: sister I think you misinterpreted my statement and did not understand it in the in the context of our ongoing discussion with Amigo which started from other threads.

He has consistently been unable to give proof of his assertions regarding his beliefs and has also constantly ignored requests to provide any proof or evidence from the words of God or Jesus and instead covers himself by constantly talking about love of God, Jesus etc. Surely this is a deception as he is trying to cover the fact he is unable to provide any proof of his assertions regarding his beliefs.

Also I did not mean by my statement that he intentionally shows love to Satan but what I meant was that in trying to show the love of God, by worshipping Jesus he actually goes against the most fundamental teachings of God and Jesus which is to worship none other than God himself and not to ascribe partners unto him and also that the sole aim of Satan is to deviate mankind into worshipping those other than God.

So in worshipping Jesus he and others who do the same are not showing the love of God but that of Satan who has succeeded in deviating him and others like him in worshipping those other than God.

May Allah guide them to the truth. Ameen

[Hamza Asadullah]

a mixture of some truth, some half-truth, and some ideas that were so entirely misconstrued as to no longer represent Christian truth at all;

This sums up the NT (New Testament) very well.

[Perseveranze]

I honestly thought we were above the level of argueing with Christianity...

[Who Am I?]

I believe I already addressed what Grace Seeker was looking for way back in this thread, but I can repeat it again if necessary.

Bottom line, I never felt satisfied in Christianity. I never felt like I belonged, I never felt at peace, and I never found any good answers to my questions. Islam has provided all of these in the short time that I have begun to learn about it, which is why I decided to accept it as my faith.

That being said, I have no problems with Christianity aside from the doctrinal issues of the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus, and the questionable origins of the New Testament. Many of my friends and family are still Christians. I'm not going to stop talking to them simply because I'm a Muslim now and they're not. That's not the example taught by Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them). That wouldn't be the best example for me to convince everyone that I am becoming a better man.

I just wanted to find inner peace and be happy with who I am, and I am finding that through Islam. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I feel closer to that goal than I ever have at any time in my life. I don't care about anything else other than that. I don't care about political or doctrinal issues of this and that. I don't care who's right and who's wrong. None of that means anything to me right now. I only know that I feel at peace with my decision to convert to Islam, and I want to continue down this road until I can finally say that I'm proud of who I am.

[Just_A_Girl13]

sister I think you misinterpreted my statement and did not understand it in the in the context of our ongoing discussion with Amigo which started from other threads. He has consistently been unable to give proof of his assertions regarding his beliefs and has also constantly ignored requests to provide any proof or evidence from the words of God or Jesus and instead covers himself by constantly talking about love of God, Jesus etc. Surely this is a deception as he is trying to cover the fact he is unable to provide any proof of his assertions regarding his beliefs. Also I did not mean by my statement that he intentionally shows love to Satan but what I meant was that in trying to show the love of God, by worshipping Jesus he actually goes against the most fundamental teachings of God and Jesus which is to worship none other than God himself and not to ascribe partners unto him and also that the sole aim of Satan is to deviate mankind into worshipping those other than God. So in worshipping Jesus he and others who do the same are not showing the love of God but that of Satan who has succeeded in deviating him and others like him in worshipping those other than God.

Ah, my apologies, I see what you were trying to convey now.

[Grace Seeker]

This sums up the NT (New Testament) very well.

I accept that it sums up how you view the NT. I do not accept that such a view of the NT represents what is true with regard to the NT.

I honestly thought we were above the level of argueing with Christianity...

Some are. Some aren't.

I believe I already addressed what Grace Seeker was looking for way back in this thread, but I can repeat it again if necessary.

</p>
Yes, you did. And as I said then, I appreciate the sharing that you did.

[Amigo]

In the other thread I also asked you about how you communicate with your dead ancestors because you told me you get knowledge directly from your dead ancestors,

Well, go back to those thread and read my answers. Death of the body does not mean death of the soul and spirit.

How do you communicate with the holy spirit? Does he tell you what christ said in your dreams?

Not in dream but in reality. He speaks in the language of God which is truth:
When I see the reactions I am receiving for standing for truth and love as true worship, He tells me that He is with me as He was with Jesus and points out how that's why I am getting the same reactions Jesus received.
Like in Jesus time, people who thought themselves expert in scriptures called him a liar, then they moved on to insulting him and calling him an associate of Satan, and more...

[Ramadhan]

Well, go back to those thread and read my answers. Death of the body does not mean death of the soul and spirit.

So jesus did not actually die? So what's all this brouhaha about jesus died to pay the inherited sins?

Not in dream but in reality. He speaks in the language of God which is truth: When I see the reactions I am receiving for standing for truth and love as true worship, He tells me that He is with me as He was with Jesus and points out how that's why I am getting the same reactions Jesus received. Like in Jesus time, people who thought themselves expert in scriptures called him a liar, then they moved on to insulting him and calling him an associate of Satan, and more...

I see. You are basically saying that you are similar to the prophets (pbut) who received direct guidance from God, and God spoke to you in reality.

[جوري]

why I am getting the same reactions Jesus received.

lol you're too funny.. does Giordano Bruno ring a bell?

Full name Giordano Bruno
an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in proposing that the Sun was essentially a star, and moreover, that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings.[1] He was burned at the stake by civil authorities in 1600 after the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy for his pantheism

Source

one of many speakers of truth burnt at the stake by your church.. you have some nerve calling yourself 'Jesus like' when you and your church are nothing but far removed least of which just plain humanity to those who disagree!


best,

[Grace Seeker]

So jesus did not actually die? So what's all this brouhaha about jesus died to pay the inherited sins?

What's so hard about this concept? Jesus died and rose again, and so today lives forever more.

Or are you trying to imply that because he rose again, that this should be understood to mean that he wasn't really killed?

I see. You are basically saying that you are similar to the prophets (pbut) who received direct guidance from God, and God spoke to you in reality.

I won't speak for Amigo, but I would not find this unusual if it were true. Christian teaching holds that the gift of prophecy still exists. And the Holy Spirit does indeed continue to speak to many of God's servants yet today. I don't even preclude it from potentially being true of those who don't even share in the Christian faith -- say Muhammad (pbuh).

But we also hold that one way for those of us to test the genuineness of whether someone is receiving a revelation from the Holy Spirit is whether it is in keeping with that which he has previously revealed to us in the holy scriptures.

[Ramadhan]

What's so hard about this concept? Jesus died and rose again, and so today lives forever more. Or are you trying to imply that because he rose again, that this should be understood to mean that he wasn't really killed?

That means it wasn't a real sacrifice. So you are basically saying that Jesus knew he was only going to have an extra 2 days sleep.

And I am afraid you missed this query of mine:

Was there any live witness to the death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh) that you consider it as absolute truth? You can use the source from your own bible, I would even accept that.

I won't speak for Amigo, but I would not find this unusual if it were true. Christian teaching holds that the gift of prophecy still exists. And the Holy Spirit does indeed continue to speak to many of God's servants yet today. I don't even preclude it from potentially being true of those who don't even share in the Christian faith -- say Muhammad (pbuh). But we also hold that one way for those of us to test the genuineness of whether someone is receiving a revelation from the Holy Spirit is whether it is in keeping with that which he has previously revealed to us in the holy scriptures.

But Amigo definitely claimed that scriptures are not important and immaterial, do you think this opinion is the view of majority of christians?
Remember that Amigo is a catholic and catholics are majority christians. So if you disagree with amigo, doesnt this make your brand of christianity indeed heretical?

[Grace Seeker]

That means it wasn't a real sacrifice. So you are basically saying that Jesus knew he was only going to have an extra 2 days sleep.

You will find Christians of different opions as to whether or not Jesus knew that he would also be resurrected. But, regardless, the taking on of the sin of all of humanity is a real sacrifice.

And I am afraid you missed this query of mine:

Don't be so sure.

But Amigo definitely claimed that scriptures are not important and immaterial, do you think this opinion is the view of majority of christians?

I think that is your erroneous interpretation of what he said.

Remember that Amigo is a catholic and catholics are majority christians. So if you disagree with amigo, doesnt this make your brand of christianity indeed heretical?

A Catholic might consider some of my views in error, but since I've never been Catholic, a Catholic would not consider me a heretic regardless what my views are.

[Ramadhan]

You will find Christians of different opions as to whether or not Jesus knew that he would also be resurrected.

Do you base your faith on what other christians say or think? Shouldn't you base your faith on what your scripture says? Or in any case, shouldn't you base your faith and belief on evidence instead of what other people say/act?

In the supposed death and resurrection of jesus (as), there's only two scenarios here:
1. jesus (as) knew he was going to die to pay the inherited sins of the christians (well, christians believe that if you are not christian then your sin is not paid)
2. jesus (as) didn't know he was going to die to pay the inherited sins of the christians.

I hope you are not going to tell me Jesus (as) knew and didn't know at the same time, because that is truly messed up, as if 3=1 is not messed up enough.
Now, if Jesus knew he was going to have an extra 2 nights of sleep (he knew it wasnt going to be a real death, because he is god after all), then that is not a real sacrifice (let's for the time being not discussing about the ridiculousness of the idea that God who created this vast universe of at least 14 billions light years in radius and everything else, needed to come down as a baby human to be able to forgive the sins of mere humans).
And if jesus (as) didn't know he was going to die, that means he is not god after all.
So, can you please tell us what is the evidence in the canonical gospels regarding this scenario?

But, regardless, the taking on of the sin of all of humanity is a real sacrifice.

So you believe in a god who requires to sacrifice himself to pay the sins of all humanity, knowing that he himself created the concept of sins.
We can infer from this opinion that you believe in a god who is not all powerful, all able.
Another thing, you are saying god sacrificed himself to take on the sin of all humanity. We know that is not accurate, do we? Because christians believe that those who don't believe jesus is god didn't get their sins paid off.

Don't be so sure.

I think I can understand your reluctance to answer my question:

Was there any live witness to the death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh) that you consider it as absolute truth? You can use the source from your own bible, I would even accept that.

Many people are reluctant to face questions which would destroy their belief based on blind faith

I think that is your erroneous interpretation of what he said.

It is either you never read any of amigo's posts (which would be pretty unbelievable), or your capacity of honesty is not as what I would normally expect from a methodist pastor. Here's a tiny sample of what Amigo wrote regarding his own scripture aka bible:

Truth does not need any support. Documented sources need the support and back up of truth not vice-versa.

The reason Christianity is not founded on scripture is simple.

We can do without any scipture.

All that we need is the Holy Spirit of God.

It is very clear that he does not regard bible as important at all, and in fact it is clear that he regards what "the fathers" and current writings are more important. The proof is in his posts. He never provided any biblical verses to back up his belief/faith, and many people have asked about his biblical sources and he never answered a single one of them. I am not the only one who think this way about Amigo, here's a tiny sample of what others have said about Amigo and bible:

Most of what you said were just empty words... Half of it didn't make sense... And plus, if you have no evidence for what you say how can we be expected to take any of it? At least most Christians will use the Bible as their source of information... Most Muslims will use their scholars, Quran, and Hadith... If these sources are used, then we can have a discussion. You however don't seem to have any basis for anything... You're just throwing out your own personal ideas. (seems like that anyway)

Brother Ramadhan, from what I can tell, the Bible is mostly irrelevant to Amigo and what is important to him is the Catholic Church, including their sacraments as Amigo so indicated, "For this reason, in Christianity the pillar of Truth is not the Bible/scriptures, it is the Church.

You keep talking about disregarding your sciptures then how would you know what to believe and what not to believe? How would you distinguish the truth from falsehood?

I find the type of answers such as that from Amigo fairly typical of Christianity----it seems to be a "Chrsitian thing" to so inundate a person with nonsensical terms that one hopefuly forgets the question in their attempts to figure out the answer-----which is an impossibility because the answer itself makes no sense anyway....and persisting on getting an answer that does make sense ends up with the typical "its a mystery" bit.......

The best that I can tell you are making up what you write as you go. Your words are illogical and they are not backed up by any scripture. As far as I am concerned your words are merely hearsay.

So Pastor GS, you see that I was not making up things, I believe that we should be able to provide evidence of what we say and believe within the context.

A Catholic might consider some of my views in error, but since I've never been Catholic, a Catholic would not consider me a heretic regardless what my views are.

That's what you believe, but not based on fact and evidence. You are good with words, as I can expect from a christian pastor. You may not think you are a heretic, however, fact is, catholics who are majority christians believe you are either a heretical christian or even not christian at all.

[Grace Seeker]

You are good with words, as I can expect from a christian pastor. You may not think you are a heretic, however, fact is, catholics who are majority christians believe you are either a heretical christian or even not christian at all.

</p>
Do you know why I am good with words? (Rhetorical question, I know you don't know the answer.) It's because I know the meaning of them. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "heretic" as used within the Catholic church. From a Catholic perspective, a heretic is one who having once been a part of the faith left it. So, Martin Luther who was a Catholic priest and rebelled was a heretic. John Calvin who never was a Catholic is not. This is so even though Luther and Calvin had very similar beliefs. Similarly, MustafaMc and Woodrow today have very similar views. As I understand their background, Woodrow was once Catholic, but MustafaMc never was. In the eyes of the Catholic church both are equally wrong, but only Woodrow is the heretic.

I'm not even saying that I agree with the Catholic church's manner of using the term that way, for I think that modern society has adopted the meaning you gave to it. But it is their term; they invented it. So, if Catholic should choose to continue to use it with its original meaning, I guess that is their choice. But in the end, that is why I continue to assert that you often don't even understand your own questions. Let me refresh your memory on what you actually asked:

Remember that Amigo is a catholic and catholics are majority christians. So if you disagree with amigo, doesnt this make your brand of christianity indeed heretical?

Answer, NO. If Catholics are majority Christians, and the majority defines a heretic as one who was once a part of the Catholic faith and then leaves it, since I have never been a Catholic it is therefore impossible for me to be a heretic. Once you understand the real meaning of the words you have chosen and the facts associated with them, rather than just the meaning and facts you want to there to be, the answer is clear.

You have similar problems of miscommunication by taking accepting incorrect understanding of basic concepts with most of your other points of contention. And since rather than seeking to actually understand you appear (at least from my vantage point) merely to desire to be in continuous contention, I've lost interest in discussing these things with you.

BTW, it has nothing to do with the question. I've address every question that you've asked above (other than the definition of heretic) at one time or another on this forum, many of them repeatedly, but the people asking them where polite, not contentious. I'm here to learn about Islam and will take time to also help people who misunderstand Christianity. But your misunderstandings regarding Christianity appear to be entirely the result of a contentious attitude, for you give little to no evidence of a desire to learn from previous correction. So, I see little value for either of us in sharing anything with you, you tend to ignore it. You basically told me that you don't even bother to read PMs from certian people, implying that I was one of those you don't listen to. This leads me to believe the only reason that you would bother to read this post or any other is to continue to argue. Do that on your own time. I'm done wasting mine on you.

As for learning about Islam. These are some of the things that I have learned:When the Prophet (pbuh) was asked, "Which Muslim has the perfect faith?" He answered, "One who possess the best moral character." I'm told that the focus of the life of a genuine Muslim "is on developing noble qualities in the soul, such as patience, kindness, and modesty and breaking the bad habits of the soul, such as lying, harshness, and ingratitude." (Sohaib N. Sultan in The Quran and Sayings of he Prophet Muhammad: Selections Annotated and Explained) And plainly, Ramadhan, I don't see this sort of character in your postings.

So, I don't think I can help you understand Christianity better, as you won't listen. And I don't think you can help me understand Islam better, because you don't reflect what I am told is genuine Islam. I don't say that to cut you down. I might be completely wrong about you. Maybe it is only in this context that you behave this way, and in person are as genuine of a Muslim as I would ever care to meet. But in this context you are not. May Allah give you guidance. All the best. Good bye.

[Ramadhan]

Do you know why I am good with words? (Rhetorical question, I know you don't know the answer.) It's because I know the meaning of them

Isn't it funny, normally a person who truly know the meaning of words are able to explain their ideas in simple words/sentences and manners.
Actually, I think you are better with words because you are conditioned to. You can never explain core beliefs of christianity in simple sentences and words that are understood by everyone, so you are forced to create long winded convoluted flowery words and sentences to confuse people when you are asked about the core of your belief.

But your misunderstandings regarding Christianity appear to be entirely the result of a contentious attitude, for you give little to no evidence of a desire to learn from previous correction. So, I see little value for either of us in sharing anything with you, you tend to ignore it.

You have never given the answer to my previous questions either. Everyone can just do a search on my interaction posts between you and me and can see for themselves that you tend to obfuscate the matter to avoid giving clear answers.

So, I don't think I can help you understand Christianity better, as you won't listen. And I don't think you can help me understand Islam better, because you don't reflect what I am told is genuine Islam. I don't say that to cut you down. I might be completely wrong about you. Maybe it is only in this context that you behave this way, and in person are as genuine of a Muslim as I would ever care to meet. But in this context you are not. May Allah give you guidance. All the best. Good bye.

I understand christianity enough to know that the true message from Jesus (pbuh) has been mangled and changed beyond recognition, and if you think I cannot help to understand Islam better, too bad then. I see that you have been member of this forum more than 4 years and have been involved in numerous discussions threads. If I didn't help you have better understanding of Islam, surely those thousands others have. So no big deal for you, right?

Although funny thing is, you claimed in the your reporting post of mine that one of the reasons you are not accepting Islam is because of me. I didn't know I was that important to you.
So basically, you judge the truth based on your perception of one single individual? If there is an advice I can give you, I am telling you that that is not the wisest and smartest thing to do.
Although it seems quite contradictory, because in the same reported post, you claimed that Allah made you a christian and not a muslim.
It seems you are blaming everyone, from God down to me, for your decision of not accepting Islam.

You basically told me that you don't even bother to read PMs from certian people, implying that I was one of those you don't listen to. This leads me to believe the only reason that you would bother to read this post or any other is to continue to argue. Do that on your own time. I'm done wasting mine on you.

I am afraid you need to improve your reading comprehension and deductive power. Not reading or responding PMs from certain people do not mean I don't want to engage them in the forums. After all, this is a public discussion forum and not a social networking site, and so I am still eager to engage discussions with you in the comparative religion, so you and other readers are able to see the truth about bible, jesus (as), saul of tarsus, christianity, etc. I hope you are as excited as I am.

[Woodrow]

At the moment I am only going to address this part.

</p>
Do you know why I am good with words? (Rhetorical question, I know you don't know the answer.) It's because I know the meaning of them. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "heretic" as used within the Catholic church. From a Catholic perspective, a heretic is one who having once been a part of the faith left it. So, Martin Luther who was a Catholic priest and rebelled was a heretic. John Calvin who never was a Catholic is not. This is so even though Luther and Calvin had very similar beliefs. Similarly, MustafaMc and Woodrow today have very similar views. As I understand their background, Woodrow was once Catholic, but MustafaMc never was. In the eyes of the Catholic church both are equally wrong, but only Woodrow is the heretic.

Catholicism is quite exact over what it defines as a heretic. You are correct, in accordance with the Catholic Church I am considered a heretic as I was once Catholic and my Brother MustafaMc is not because he never was a Catholic. This is even while both he and I have very similar histories.

In the Catholic dictionary a heretic is defined as:

her·e·tic (hr-tk)
n.
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
adj.
Heretical.
[Middle English heretik, from Old French heretique, from Late Latin haereticus, from Greek hairetikos, able to choose, factious, from hairetos, chosen, from haireisthai, to choose; see heresy.

To meet that definition a person has to first be Catholic.

Of course this leads to confusion as to if a denomination can be heresy and the follower not, because they never where Catholic. A good example would be Lutherans. Martin Luther was called a heretic and his church a heresy. But today most Lutherans were born as such so the members are heretics. As an added twist over the years the Catholic Church accepted some of Luthers reforms and the Lutheran Church lost it's label of being a heresy.

Oddly there probably are still some denominations the Catholic church considers heretical, yet by their own definition the members are not heretics.

[Amigo]

To meet that definition a person has to first be Catholic. Of course this leads to confusion as to if a denomination can be heresy and the follower not, because they never where Catholic.

There is a difference between following an error without realising at all that it is an error, and actually lying about the truth you know and leading others into error or following error in prideful negligeance not because truth is lacking to you. The Catholic Church acknowledges that not all who follow errors do it intentionally.

And other example is the case of a Muslim who have never meet a Christian and only know Christianity through what he read in the muslim Book(s). If this Muslim believes that Christians worship three G/gods, he is a not heretic.
On the other hand, an ex-Christian, who know very well that Christians don't believe in three G/gods but turn around and start saying that Christians confess that they worship three G/gods, this person is a heretic.

[Who Am I?]

The concept of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus used to bother me even when I was a Christian, so maybe I was always a heretic.

[Amigo]

The concept of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus used to bother me even when I was a Christian, so maybe I was always a heretic.

If you were not a real Catholic, you are not a real heretic.

[Who Am I?]

If you were not a real Catholic, you are not a real heretic.

Nope, I was never a Catholic. Strictly Protestant, though I thought about becoming Catholic for a while.

[IAmZamzam]

I think you are better with words because you are conditioned to. You can never explain core beliefs of christianity in simple sentences and words that are understood by everyone, so you are forced to create long winded convoluted flowery words and sentences to confuse people when you are asked about the core of your belief.

Mister, I do believe you just more or less boiled down the entire world of Christian apologetics to a single sentence. Impressive.

[Who Am I?]

Mister, I do believe you just more or less boiled down the entire world of Christian apologetics to a single sentence. Impressive.

OK, was I the only one who read this in a Darth Vader voice?

"Impressive.. most impressive, young Skywalker."

Er... what? Why are you all looking at me like that?

[Riana17]

Mister, I do believe you just more or less boiled down the entire world of Christian apologetics to a single sentence. Impressive.

Salam
Masha Allah
Islam is really the simplest yet the most amazing thing ever happend to me, who likes complication anyway? I dont like to be lost, not at all inshallah

I never really had wish list for myself, however since I become Muslim, I had one "to die Real Muslim Inshallah" Oh this makes me cry... what else we need??? really praying 5times/day, waking up 3am to pray, fasting, worshipping ONE TRUE GOD is more than worth it. Life becomes so easy so peaceful so beautiful because of Islam,,, alhamdollelah,

[Grace Seeker]

Catholicism is quite exact over what it defines as a heretic. You are correct, in accordance with the Catholic Church I am considered a heretic as I was once Catholic and my Brother MustafaMc is not because he never was a Catholic. This is even while both he and I have very similar histories.

Thank-you, Woodrow. I know you didn't post that to defend me, just to defend truth. But I appreciate it nonetheless.

And since like MustafaMc I have never been Catholic, I also would not be considered a heretic even though there are some points on which the Catholic church and I would disagree. Of course there are many more points on which we would agree. So, for those of us who are followers of Christ, but not connected to the Catholic church, Catholics have another term they call us by -- "separated brethren."

[Just_A_Girl13]

I never really had wish list for myself, however since I become Muslim, I had one "to die Real Muslim Inshallah" Oh this makes me cry... what else we need??? really praying 5times/day, waking up 3am to pray, fasting, worshipping ONE TRUE GOD is more than worth it. Life becomes so easy so peaceful so beautiful because of Islam,,, alhamdollelah,

Salaam sister,

This made me so happy, masha Allah! :) You just summarized everything I have been trying to explain to my family (and myself) for the past week. What a wonderful and worthy goal, to die a true Muslim.

Peace be with you

[Hamza Asadullah]

OK, was I the only one who read this in a Darth Vader voice?

"Impressive.. most impressive, young Skywalker."

You have foresaken the "Dark side" & come into the light of Islam.

[Riana17]

Salam Pastor GS,

I hope you can have time to see this video, you will understand why ISLAM makes sense from the beginning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4i-8...feature=fvwrel

[Riana17]

Salaam sister,

This made me so happy, masha Allah! :) You just summarized everything I have been trying to explain to my family (and myself) for the past week. What a wonderful and worthy goal, to die a true Muslim.

Peace be with you

Yes sister,,, I am not demanding and I always say its okay to live the life full of sorrow & pain (during non Muslim time) bcoz I am gonna die anyway, whats the use of me having a life full of fun , money , fame & everything when I will die in the end??? Nothing last forever this life offers

SUBHANALLAH i become demanding when I become Muslim, i DEMAND TO die Muslim inshallah and I pray and trying hard to live the simplest with the right purpose, alhamdollelah, everything makes sense since Allah guided me, may we All receive Guidance from ONE TRUE GOD = ALLAH

[Who Am I?]

You have foresaken the "Dark side" & come into the light of Islam.

I tell you what, giving up that Force Lightning was tougher that I thought it would be.
Force Lightning rules!

[Mister Agenda]

Coming in late, but here is why I left Christianity: I was raised Pentecostal, the variety of Christianity that has 'speaking in tongues'. My father is United Pentecostal, and my mother was Assembly of God (same as Billy Graham). They disagreed on some points about baptism and such, so I'm pretty sure they both thought the other was going to hell. :)

The funny thing is, that my mother was devout when I was younger, while my father didn't go to church. By the time I was 12 or 13 I had read the New Testament in KJV and Good News translations. About that time, my father got very religious. We were going to church three or four times a week. I had always been devout and resolved to read the Bible, cover-to-cover, around the age of 15, I think.

First I read the King James. I considered that maybe I just wasn't understanding it right because of the archaic English. So I read it again in a modern English translation, The Living Bible, which also had a lot of useful footnotes.

Then I went from being a Pentecostal Christian to being an agnostic theist (believed in a creator, but not in a particular religion). I noticed contradictions, and I had been told there were none. I saw the character and nature of Yahweh change over the course of the OT, and a radical personality change in the NT, in a way that is only apparent if you read the Bible front-to-back. I read of God commanding atrocities. At the end, I could not believe the Bible was a product of divine inspiration, it seemed very human-inspired to me.

It took about 20 more years before I started thinking of myself as an atheist.

[Just_A_Girl13]

I never really had wish list for myself, however since I become Muslim, I had one "to die Real Muslim Inshallah" Oh this makes me cry... what else we need??? really praying 5times/day, waking up 3am to pray, fasting, worshipping ONE TRUE GOD is more than worth it. Life becomes so easy so peaceful so beautiful because of Islam,,, alhamdollelah,

Masha Allah, I was so inspired by these words that I set them as my desktop background so that I may see them whenever I log onto my computer :)

[Amigo]

Coming in late, but here is why I left Christianity: I was raised Pentecostal, the variety of Christianity that has 'speaking in tongues'. My father is United Pentecostal, and my mother was Assembly of God (same as Billy Graham). They disagreed on some points about baptism and such, so I'm pretty sure they both thought the other was going to hell. :)

The funny thing is, that my mother was devout when I was younger, while my father didn't go to church. By the time I was 12 or 13 I had read the New Testament in KJV and Good News translations. About that time, my father got very religious. We were going to church three or four times a week. I had always been devout and resolved to read the Bible, cover-to-cover, around the age of 15, I think.

First I read the King James. I considered that maybe I just wasn't understanding it right because of the archaic English. So I read it again in a modern English translation, The Living Bible, which also had a lot of useful footnotes.

Then I went from being a Pentecostal Christian to being an agnostic theist (believed in a creator, but not in a particular religion). I noticed contradictions, and I had been told there were none. I saw the character and nature of Yahweh change over the course of the OT, and a radical personality change in the NT, in a way that is only apparent if you read the Bible front-to-back. I read of God commanding atrocities. At the end, I could not believe the Bible was a product of divine inspiration, it seemed very human-inspired to me.

It took about 20 more years before I started thinking of myself as an atheist.

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books. Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written? :) Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT. The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation, that very one which Jesus and the first Christians opposed and which actually causes Christianity to evolve separately from Judaism.

An other fact is that the first gentiles Christians did not even have the OT (this was generally a jewish document even though it contains some stories which involves the whole world).

[Riana17]

Masha Allah, I was so inspired by these words that I set them as my desktop background so that I may see them whenever I log onto my computer :)

Oh sis, you made me cry
Im speechless,,,, I am glad to share my thoughts


May Allah love you and you family, may Allah love us all and have mercy on Us and inshallah we all die real Muslims inshallah

[Hamza Asadullah]

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books. Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written? :) Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT. The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation, that very one which Jesus and the first Christians opposed and which actually causes Christianity to evolve separately from Judaism.

An other fact is that the first gentiles Christians did not even have the OT (this was generally a jewish document even though it contains some stories which involves the whole world).

So what was Christianity founded on? If it was not the OT which you claim to be only for the Jews then was it on the NT?

So you are actually saying that Christianity was built upon the NT which are random books written by random men who's origins and dates are not even known and they never even met Jesus nor did they have anything to do with him nor God.

No wonder you keep trying to move away from your scriptures.

Whether you like it or not a religion is based upon its scriptures and NOTHING from the teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus confirms ANY of your fundamental beliefs regarding Christianity. That is why you keep moving away from your scriptures.

[Ramadhan]

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books.

OK. so christianity is not founded on bible?

Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written?

And christianity is not based on the NT?

Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT. The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation, that very one which Jesus and the first Christians opposed and which actually causes Christianity to evolve separately from Judaism.

And Christianity is not based on the OT either?

I hope Pastor Grace Seeker read this for he has accused me in this thread of having falsely attributed Amigo with "scripture is not important for christians".

[Starrynight]

Well the reason I am concerned about dogs in particular is because I have two dogs that are my closest companions right now. I already feel alone enough as it is on this journey, and could not get rid of them if I wanted to right now. I know, this seems trivial and maybe it is. But that is my reality.

As for alcohol, well that is something I have struggled with for a long time. Life is hard enough without enjoying a few drinks on the weekends. I have tried to give this one up before but was never successful for a long time. I think I made it a little over a year once before something happened to make me start drinking again. I think my main problem with alcohol is boredom. I am so bored with my life right now and tired of being unhappy, and when I get bored and unhappy, I drink.

I was going to post in more detail later about all my issues with most religions when I get home and have more time.

Hey, I just wanted to add my thoughts on the dog issue. I think it would actually be bad in the eyes of God (whoever ones God is) to get ride of a pet. Because we should take care of all living things, ya know? The family I am closest with (aside from my own) is Muslim and they always take in stray dogs. So, I don't think you should worry about having dogs :)

[Ramadhan]

The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation,

You seem to have this idea that only The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT. Have you not read your bible? For if you have, you would have easily noticed that there are even numerous outright conflicts (and not just in terms of interpretations) between the canonical gospels, and even within a gospel!

[Who Am I?]

Hey, I just wanted to add my thoughts on the dog issue. I think it would actually be bad in the eyes of God (whoever ones God is) to get ride of a pet. Because we should take care of all living things, ya know? The family I am closest with (aside from my own) is Muslim and they always take in stray dogs. So, I don't think you should worry about having dogs :)

Thanks for the reply. Nope, I don't worry about that anymore. The most important thing to me right now is to become a better Muslim and a better person. That is my goal in life now. I want to be happy with who I am and find true inner peace before I die. I think I made the right decision in taking shahada, but now I want to move forward from that. Dogs are a trivial issue compared to that.

[Amigo]

I hope Pastor Grace Seeker read this for he has accused me in this thread of having falsely attributed Amigo with "scripture is not important for christians".

You are still falsely accusing me of this.

You seem to have this idea that only The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT. Have you not read your bible? For if you have, you would have easily noticed that there are even numerous outright conflicts (and not just in terms of interpretations) between the canonical gospels, and even within a gospel!

Please read carefully what I am writting. I said that it is the 'common' human/jewish interpretation of the OT which conflict with the NT. The inspired/true interpretation of the OT does not conflict with the NT. Also the gospels do not conflict with themselves. It is your interpretation of the gospels which sees them as conflicting.

No book of the Bible mentions the word Bible. No book says that it can interpret itself, or that it can interpret the Bible or that the Bible can interpret itself. So expecting any book to interpret itself is already crossing the line and confusing oneself.

The Bible is freely open to interpretations therefore it can face true and false interpretations. No book can interpret itself even if it mentions its own name in itself. Even a Constitution needs a court to interpret it, legal documents need lawyers to interpret them. No book can be put in a witness box and be asked questions with expections to answer as a person would.
A book does not speak, it is read.

Bible is more honest about this, although this honesty is indirect.

[Ramadhan]

You are still falsely accusing me of this.

What you wrote above speak for themselves. Here, let me help you remember what you wrote just a few posts above (and if it is not enough for you, I can also copy and paste here your past posts where you christianity does not need bible):

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books.

Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written?

Please read carefully what I am writting. I said that it is the 'common' human/jewish interpretation of the OT which conflict with the NT. The inspired/true interpretation of the OT does not conflict with the NT. Also the gospels do not conflict with themselves. It is your interpretation of the gospels which sees them as conflicting.

So prophet Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus (pbut) etc. all did not interpret the OT correctly when they clearly said and commanded "Worship the ONE God, our God"? And only saul of tarsus and his fans had the correct interpretation of the OT?

Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT.

What's all these "jesus and christians" history revision? Were Jesus and his followers not jews?
Why do christians rewrote the history of their own God based on the koine greek bible, 3 centuries later?, a collection of books that were mostly written anonymously by random people, all of whom never even met Jesus (pbuh).
In fact, Jesus (pbuh) was VERY jewish he even stated "I am sent only to the lost sheep of Israel", his followers were all also very jewish. They went to temples to pray, they were fasting a whole month, Jesus was circumcised, they never ate pork, etc etc. In fact, had Jesus (pbuh) lived today, americans and europeans non-muslims would have suspected he is a terrorist because of his look and dress.

[Amigo]

What you wrote above speak for themselves. Here, let me help you remember what you wrote just a few posts above (and if it is not enough for you, I can also copy and paste here your past posts where you christianity does not need bible): You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books. Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written?

None of this means "scriptures is not important to Christians"

[Ramadhan]

Also the gospels do not conflict with themselves.

Have you actually read bible?

Here's a tiny sample of conflicts in the gospels:

1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.
2) Is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?
3) When did the leper become not a leper? (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.
4) Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
5) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
6) Just what did Jesus instruct them to take? (Matthew 10:10) Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals. (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
7) When did John find out Jesus was the Messiah? (Matthew 11:2-3) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the messiah. (Luke 7:18-22) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah. (John 1 :29-34,36) John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.
8) Who made the request? (Matthew 20:20-21) Their mother requested that James and John, Zebedee’s children, should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom. (Mark 10:35-37) James and John, Zebedee’s children, requested that they should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom.
9) What animals were brought to Jesus? (Matthew 21:2-7) two of the disciples brought Jesus an ass and a colt from the village of Bethphage. (Mark 11:2-7) They brought him only a colt.
10) When did the fig tree hear of its doom? (Matthew 21:17-19) Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple. (Mark 11:14-15 & 20) He cursed it before the purging.
11) When did the fig tree keel? (Matthew 21:9) The fig tree withered immediately. and the disciples registered surprise then and there. (Mark 11:12-14 & 20) The morning after Jesus cursed the fig tree, the disciples noticed it had withered and expressed astonishment.
12) Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21
13) Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli. Christians shall try to LIE and tell you that one is the heritage of Mary and the other Joseph. This is utter bull****, the Hebrew and Greek cultures NEVER regarded the bloodline of the mother. They were patriarchal societies which only concerned themselves with paternal lineage.
14) How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations, Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations.
15) Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt. Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.
16) Matthew 5:1-2 Christ preached his first sermon on the mount. Luke 6:17 & 20 Christ preached his first sermon in the plain.
17) John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24
18) What was the nationality of the woman who besought Jesus? Matthew 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, Have mercy on me, 0 Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil." Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation, and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter."
19) How many blind men besought Jesus? Matthew 20:30 Two blind men. Luke 18:35-38 Only one blind man.
20) Where did the devil take Jesus first? (Matthew 4:5-8) The Devil took Jesus first to the parapet of the temple, then to a high place to view all the Kingdoms of the world. (Luke 4:5-9) The Devil took Jesus first to a high place to view the kingdoms, then to the parapet of the temple.
21) Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.
22) If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."
23) Who did Jesus tell the Lord’s Prayer to? (Matthew 5:1, 6:9-13 & 7:28) Jesus delivered the Lord’s Prayer during the Sermon on the Mount before the multitudes. (Luke 11:1-4) He delivered it before the disciples alone, and not as part of the Sermon on the Mount.
24) When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.
25) The two thieves reviled Christ. (Matthew 27:44 & Mark 15:32) Only one of the thieves reviled Christ. Luke 23:39-40.
26) In 1 Corinthians 1:17 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to preach the gospel") Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them…" Clearly one of these people is wrong, either way, it’s a contradiction.
27) When did Satan enter Judas? Satan entered into Judas while at the supper. John 13:27 Satan entered Judas before the supper. Luke 23:3-4 & 7
28) How many women came to the sepulcher? John 20:1 Only one woman went, Mary Magdalene. Matthew 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" (Jesus’ mother) went.
29) Mark 16:2 It was sunrise when the two women went to the sepulcher. John 20:1 It was still dark (before sunrise) when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher.
30) There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulcher and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was only one angel seen and he was sitting down. Mark 28:2-5
31) How many angels were within the sepulcher? John 20:11-12 two, Mark 16:5 one.
32) The Holy Ghost bestowed at Pentecost. Acts 1:5-8 & 2:1-4 The holy Ghost bestowed before Pentecost. John 20:22
33) Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem. Luke 24:32-37 On a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:15-17
34) Where did Christ ascend from? From Mount Olivet. Acts 1:9-12 From Bethany. Luke 24:50-51
35) Can all sins be forgiven? (Acts 13:39) All sins can be forgiven. Great, I’m happy to know God is so merciful, but wait (Mark 3:29) Cursing or blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
36) The Elijah mystery: (Malachi 4:5) Elijah must return before the final days of the world. (Matthew 11:12-14) Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:12- 13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come, and everyone understood him to mean John the Baptist. (Mark 9:13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come. (John 1:21) John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah.
37) Who purchased the potter’s field? Acts 1:18 The field was purchased by Judas. John 20:1 The potter’s field was purchased by the chief priests.
38) Paul’s attendants heard the miraculous voice and stood speechless. Acts 9:7 Paul’s attendants did not hear the voice and were prostrate. Acts 22:9 & 26:14
39) Who bought the Sepulcher? Jacob, Josh 24:32 Abraham, Acts 7:16
40) Was it lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death? "The Jews answered him, we have a law, and by our law he ought to die." John 19:7 "The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death." John 18:31
41) Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13
42) Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.

[Ramadhan]

None of this means "scriptures is not important to Christians"

Actually you are right. It is not just that scriptures is not important to christians, you actually took it even further:
christianity is not founded on bible
and
christianity does not need bible

[Amigo]

So prophet Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus (pbut) etc. all did not interpret the OT correctly when they clearly said and commanded "Worship the ONE God, our God"? And only saul of tarsus and his fans had the correct interpretation of the OT?

Some books of the OT did not exist at the time of Moses, David, and Solomon.
As about Jesus, and Paul, and me, we all still say the same thing: God is one.
I will not be responding to this kind of questions which you already know the fact. I only mentioned this in passing because I had to address the OT issue.

[Amigo]

Have you actually read bible?

Here's a tiny sample of conflicts in the gospels:

1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.
2) Is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?
3) When did the leper become not a leper? (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.
4) Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
5) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
6) Just what did Jesus instruct them to take? (Matthew 10:10) Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals. (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
7) When did John find out Jesus was the Messiah? (Matthew 11:2-3) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the messiah. (Luke 7:18-22) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah. (John 1 :29-34,36) John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.
8) Who made the request? (Matthew 20:20-21) Their mother requested that James and John, Zebedee’s children, should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom. (Mark 10:35-37) James and John, Zebedee’s children, requested that they should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom.
9) What animals were brought to Jesus? (Matthew 21:2-7) two of the disciples brought Jesus an ass and a colt from the village of Bethphage. (Mark 11:2-7) They brought him only a colt.
10) When did the fig tree hear of its doom? (Matthew 21:17-19) Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple. (Mark 11:14-15 & 20) He cursed it before the purging.
11) When did the fig tree keel? (Matthew 21:9) The fig tree withered immediately. and the disciples registered surprise then and there. (Mark 11:12-14 & 20) The morning after Jesus cursed the fig tree, the disciples noticed it had withered and expressed astonishment.
12) Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21
13) Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli. Christians shall try to LIE and tell you that one is the heritage of Mary and the other Joseph. This is utter bull****, the Hebrew and Greek cultures NEVER regarded the bloodline of the mother. They were patriarchal societies which only concerned themselves with paternal lineage.
14) How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations, Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations.
15) Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt. Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.
16) Matthew 5:1-2 Christ preached his first sermon on the mount. Luke 6:17 & 20 Christ preached his first sermon in the plain.
17) John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24
18) What was the nationality of the woman who besought Jesus? Matthew 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, Have mercy on me, 0 Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil." Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation, and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter."
19) How many blind men besought Jesus? Matthew 20:30 Two blind men. Luke 18:35-38 Only one blind man.
20) Where did the devil take Jesus first? (Matthew 4:5-8) The Devil took Jesus first to the parapet of the temple, then to a high place to view all the Kingdoms of the world. (Luke 4:5-9) The Devil took Jesus first to a high place to view the kingdoms, then to the parapet of the temple.
21) Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.
22) If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."
23) Who did Jesus tell the Lord’s Prayer to? (Matthew 5:1, 6:9-13 & 7:28) Jesus delivered the Lord’s Prayer during the Sermon on the Mount before the multitudes. (Luke 11:1-4) He delivered it before the disciples alone, and not as part of the Sermon on the Mount.
24) When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.
25) The two thieves reviled Christ. (Matthew 27:44 & Mark 15:32) Only one of the thieves reviled Christ. Luke 23:39-40.
26) In 1 Corinthians 1:17 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to preach the gospel") Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them…" Clearly one of these people is wrong, either way, it’s a contradiction.
27) When did Satan enter Judas? Satan entered into Judas while at the supper. John 13:27 Satan entered Judas before the supper. Luke 23:3-4 & 7
28) How many women came to the sepulcher? John 20:1 Only one woman went, Mary Magdalene. Matthew 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" (Jesus’ mother) went.
29) Mark 16:2 It was sunrise when the two women went to the sepulcher. John 20:1 It was still dark (before sunrise) when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher.
30) There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulcher and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was only one angel seen and he was sitting down. Mark 28:2-5
31) How many angels were within the sepulcher? John 20:11-12 two, Mark 16:5 one.
32) The Holy Ghost bestowed at Pentecost. Acts 1:5-8 & 2:1-4 The holy Ghost bestowed before Pentecost. John 20:22
33) Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem. Luke 24:32-37 On a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:15-17
34) Where did Christ ascend from? From Mount Olivet. Acts 1:9-12 From Bethany. Luke 24:50-51
35) Can all sins be forgiven? (Acts 13:39) All sins can be forgiven. Great, I’m happy to know God is so merciful, but wait (Mark 3:29) Cursing or blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
36) The Elijah mystery: (Malachi 4:5) Elijah must return before the final days of the world. (Matthew 11:12-14) Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:12- 13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come, and everyone understood him to mean John the Baptist. (Mark 9:13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come. (John 1:21) John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah.
37) Who purchased the potter’s field? Acts 1:18 The field was purchased by Judas. John 20:1 The potter’s field was purchased by the chief priests.
38) Paul’s attendants heard the miraculous voice and stood speechless. Acts 9:7 Paul’s attendants did not hear the voice and were prostrate. Acts 22:9 & 26:14
39) Who bought the Sepulcher? Jacob, Josh 24:32 Abraham, Acts 7:16
40) Was it lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death? "The Jews answered him, we have a law, and by our law he ought to die." John 19:7 "The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death." John 18:31
41) Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13
42) Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.

Yeah, that's what you get when you don't take the medicine according to the doctor's instruction.
Right now, I am listening to the story of Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden tree...
There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

[brmm]

Coming in late, but here is why I left Christianity: I was raised Pentecostal, the variety of Christianity that has 'speaking in tongues'. My father is United Pentecostal, and my mother was Assembly of God (same as Billy Graham). They disagreed on some points about baptism and such, so I'm pretty sure they both thought the other was going to hell. :)

The funny thing is, that my mother was devout when I was younger, while my father didn't go to church. By the time I was 12 or 13 I had read the New Testament in KJV and Good News translations. About that time, my father got very religious. We were going to church three or four times a week. I had always been devout and resolved to read the Bible, cover-to-cover, around the age of 15, I think.

First I read the King James. I considered that maybe I just wasn't understanding it right because of the archaic English. So I read it again in a modern English translation, The Living Bible, which also had a lot of useful footnotes.

Then I went from being a Pentecostal Christian to being an agnostic theist (believed in a creator, but not in a particular religion). I noticed contradictions, and I had been told there were none. I saw the character and nature of Yahweh change over the course of the OT, and a radical personality change in the NT, in a way that is only apparent if you read the Bible front-to-back. I read of God commanding atrocities. At the end, I could not believe the Bible was a product of divine inspiration, it seemed very human-inspired to me.

It took about 20 more years before I started thinking of myself as an atheist.

If you accept inshallah, I wish to invite you for Islam, the religion of our God.
What I can say for now, Islam in the Holy Quran, so if you did not accept the book (Quran) you will not accept the faith (Islam). I think you know that there is not even a single letter difference between any 2 Arabic Quran in the world since the time of Mohammed PBUH, but the translations are different.

I have posted on line, one of the best translations for the meanings of the Holy Quran, for Dr. Mahmud Ghali. PDF file with active links.
I wish you will have the time to read and judge it by yourself inshallah.

http://www.4shared.com/document/t0OL...ml%20%EF%BB%BF

You can find more translations on www.quran.com

BRMM

[Ramadhan]

Some books of the OT did not exist at the time of Moses, David, and Solomon.

And yet prophet Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus preached and taught the same thing: Worship the ONE God. They never taught "worship The father, Jesus and holy spirit".
Jesus stated, "O Israel, OUR lord is ONE". This clear statement by Jesus shows that Jesus is not part of Godship in anyway.
Jesus never said "I am god" or "worship me", while God in the OT in numerous stances commanded us to worship Him, the ONLY God. In fact, Jesus reiterated that his followers must not worship him:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”
John 17:3 – NIV

“A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’”
Luke 18:18-19 – NIV
“The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’
Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”’”
Luke 4:5-8 – NIV

“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no commandment greater than these.’
‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
To love him with all your heart, with you all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important that all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’
When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.”
Mark 12:28-34 – NIV
But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says:
“All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:39 – NIV

As about Jesus, and Paul, and me, we all still say the same thing: God is one.

Jesus said God is one, while saul of tarsus and you said "God is the father, jesus and holy spirit"

I will not be responding to this kind of questions which you already know the fact. I only mentioned this in passing because I had to address the OT issue.

Right. I understand your difficulty in referring to your scriptures, because you will find conflicting messages in the NT, which shows it is not of divine origin.

[Ramadhan]

Yeah, that's what you get when you don't take the medicine according to the doctor's instruction.

As I would have expected that you would be evasive and not confronting the reality of your bible. Let me ask you in plain language:
are those conflicts and contradictions that I have just showed you real or not?
Are those conflicts in your bible, or do you have any other set of bible? I understand the catholics have 73 books in their bible, while protestants bible only has 66 books, so protestants think catholics have non-divine books in their bible.

Right now, I am listening to the story of Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden tree... There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

I would think this is funny if not so sad. Reminds me of those ostriches who bury their heads in the sand to avoid confronting unpleasant truth and reality.

[Amigo]

are those conflicts and contradictions that I have just showed you real or not?

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you.
Of course they are real.
As real as you will find if you try to read English on pages of mathematical formulas.
I have told you before, and let me repeat it again. To Christian, the Bible is one Word and those who compiled it meant to present that one Word.

I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our languages are very different perhaps beyond comparison. First notice that the Bible not only is written by many people, but from different times, writting modes, intentions, ...


Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

[Riana17]

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you.
Of course they are real.

I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our langues are as different as perhaps English and Chinese. I see that you compare the Koran and the Bible. That can perhaps be like comparing the Chinese alphabet with the English alphabet.
Your critiques to me sounds like me telling a chinese man: what is this? how can you say that this is even a language? can't you see that these are just imperfect drawing of a child who doesn't even know how to handle a pen? can a reasonable person seriously read this? ...
Imagine how a chinese fellow would look at me saying this:)

Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures.

Brother, whatever your believe is , pls stick around in IB
we like to see you here

salam

[Hiroshi]

1. Catholic was founded by HUMAN - the word christian or catholic will never be found in bible as well as the word "BIBLE" itself

I am not sure if this has been answered already. But the word "Christian" does appear in the Bible in Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

[Ramadhan]

See, you can't see what I am trying to tell you. Of course they are real. I will not engage in any quote discussion. I gladly do it with fellow Catholics and sometimes Orthodox, that's all. When you speak, it is sensible to speak in the same language with people you are in dialogue with. When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our langues are as different as perhaps English and Chinese. I see that you compare the Koran and the Bible. That can perhaps be like comparing the Chinese alphabet with the English alphabet. Your critiques to me sounds like me telling a chinese man: what is this? how can you say that this is even a language? can't you see that these are just imperfect drawing of a child who doesn't even know how to handle a pen? can a reasonable person seriously read this? ... Imagine how a chinese fellow would look at me saying this Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

First, let's get one thing straight: I did not even compare Bible to Qur'an. Show me the evidence otherwise.
There are other threads dedicating to compare bible and qur'an, you are more than welcome to contribute to explaining bible in those threads.

Now, I am glad you explained to us things about christianity and bible which I didn't know before. I think now I can make several conclusions, correct me if I'm wrong:
1. You agree that there are countless conflicts not only within bible, but within NT, and even within gospels (this in itself conflicted with your previous statement that there are no conflicts in the NT :)
2. Although bible is written in english, as a non-christian, even if I understand english, I am not supposed to have discussions about bible
3. From this, I can only incur that bible is not intended for everyone, and based on your explanation, bible is reserved to those who have learnt christian alphabets and language
4. Christians have their own language based on christian alphabets.

And if your explanation represent majority christians, I think people now can conclude for themselves what christianity is :)

[Ramadhan]

I am not sure if this has been answered already. But the word "Christian" does appear in the Bible in Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

I think she meant the canonical gospels.

[Amigo]

Sorry guys, I just edited my post but the point is still essentially the same. I did not notice that you had posted replies already. Sorry again
:)

[Ramadhan]

There is a law on how to approch sacred things you know.

I can infer from this that you believe bible is sacred, but how come something is sacred when it is full of errors, contradictions, and even proven fabrications?

[Amigo]

Now, I am glad you explained to us things about christianity and bible which I didn't know before. I think now I can make several conclusions, correct me if I'm wrong:

To be fair, since you posted these before I had edited the post, I will address them.

1. Although bible is written in english, as a non-christian, even if I understand english, I am not supposed to have discussions about bible

A reasonable discussion. Respect the Christian Faith in which the Bible was compiled and the books of the NT written.

2. From this, I can only incur that bible is not intended for everyone, and based on your explanation, bible is reserved to those who have learnt christian alphabets and language

One who is unwilling to learn the language does not really want to understand it and should not pretend to understand it.

3. Christians have their own language based on christian alphabets.

I hoped you are not being too childish and reading me to litteraly, I suspected you would do this anyway, so I edited the post to make it more precise and leave less room for wrong assumptions.

And if your explanation represent majority christians, I think people now can conclude for themselves what christianity is

They always do:)

[Amigo]

Brother, whatever your believe is , pls stick around in IB we like to see you here

Well, I don't believe that for the reasons you know. But as you guys like to say, Allah knows best.
I reply to good message, and generally ignore bad ones. So I tought I will reply to this one and say something. I don't enjoy ignore to anyone, but I do it when forced to. God's holy name is more important than people's feelings.

[Ramadhan]

A reasonable discussion. Respect the Christian Faith in which the Bible was compiled and the books of the NT written.

what do you mean by reasonable?
Do you not think that reasonability should be judged on objective measures, such as:
- always back up what you say with evidence, facts, scriptural verses, etc?
- or do you think reasonable is freedom to say anything without any back up?
if you think it's the first, then I think I have always been reasonable, as I always said what I think of christianity with evidence even from christians own sources (bible verses, bible scholars findings, etc), and if I had something I did not understand, I asked you about them, many of them you actually refused to answer.
So who's reasonable and who's not?
As for being respectful, I consider myself much more respectful towards Jesus (as) than any christians in this forum. I send prayer of peace towards him everytime I write his name. I have never seen any christians even send salam to Jesus (as) in this forum.

One who is unwilling to learn the language does not really want to understand it and should not pretend to understand it.

What is the requirement of leaning the christian language, where one can learn the christian language, and what is the difference between christian language with the language that common people actually speak/understand?

I hoped you are not being too childish and reading me to litteraly, I suspected you would do this anyway, so I edited the post to make it more precise and leave less room for wrong assumptions.

Even after your edit, you are still talking about christian alphabet:

Now, when you are ready and have time to learn the Christian alphabet, let me know. And once you know the language, I will discuss with you about our Sacred Scriptures if you still don't the Christian Faith.

The new addition is this:

When it comes to non-Christians, especially you, our languages are very different perhaps beyond comparison.

We all are human, and we can use our common sense and logic to discern something, which is the same for you and me. unless you speak in tongues, which I admit I don't understand.

First notice that the Bible not only is written by many people, but from different times, writting modes, intentions, ...

So you agree that the conflicts in the bible is caused by writing of many people (anonymous, I assume), writing modes (like what?), intentions (what are those intentions?).
Now, you cannot deny that they are countless conflicts even within gospels, so with those conflicting statements, how do we know the truths from the untruths?

They always do

Yes they do, and then those who do, they become either atheists or revert to Islam.

[Amigo]

Yes they do, and then those who do, they become either atheists or revert to Islam.

Yes, if they didn't or after they splint into denominations.

[Amigo]

what do you mean by reasonable? Do you not think that reasonability should be judged on objective measures, such as: - always back up what you say with evidence, facts, scriptural verses, etc? - or do you think reasonable is freedom to say anything without any back up? if you think it's the first, then I think I have always been reasonable, as I always said what I think of christianity with evidence even from christians own sources (bible verses, bible scholars findings, etc), and if I had something I did not understand, I asked you about them, many of them you actually refused to answer. So who's reasonable and who's not?

You can not be reasonable without charity/goodness.
I never intentionally leave any real/sincere/respectful question unanswered. I respect truth and goodness.

What is the requirement of leaning the christian language, where one can learn the christian language, and what is the difference between christian language with the language that common people actually speak/understand?

love of truth and loving kindness.
Truth dwels in Love.
Those who don't love can not have access to truth.
The holy Garden is protected by cherubim with flaming swords.
They purify kind hearts and lead them into the more and more clarity of the mysteries.

So you agree that the conflicts in the bible is caused by writing of many people (anonymous, I assume), writing modes (like what?), intentions (what are those intentions?). Now, you cannot deny that they are countless conflicts even within gospels, so with those conflicting statements, how do we know the truths from the untruths?

hehe, the justice of God is unfailing. Our hearts see according to their purity. I said 'hearts' not 'eyes'. Congratulations you have discovered an other conflict! hearts have no eyes!

[Ramadhan]

You can not be reasonable without charity/goodness.

Does this mean you are not reasonable?
Because you have not been charitable in this forum by refusing to give answers that many members in this section seek from you.

I never intentionally leave any real/sincere/respectful question unanswered.

Whether intentional or not, you have left my real/sincere/respectful question unanswered.

I respect truth and goodness.

Maybe so, but what you have shown in this section showed otherwise.

love of truth and loving kindness. Truth dwels in Love. Those who don't love can not have access to truth. The holy Garden is protected by cherubim with flaming swords. They purify kind hearts and lead them into the more and more clarity of the mysteries.

I love truth and kindness (that's why I am a muslim), and so I dwell in Love, and this mean I have access to truth.
So now, can I go to The holy Garden protected by cherubim with flaming swords who purify my heart and lead me into the more and more clarity of the mysteries?

Or in more practical terms: Can I now discuss the bible with you?

hehe, the justice of God is unfailing. Our hearts see according to their purity. I said 'hearts' not 'eyes'. Congratulations you have discovered an other conflict! hearts have no eyes!

Yes, the justice of God is unfailing, but it seems the bible is failing.
so our hearts see according to their purity, and your hearts see that it is acceptable that men corrupted the words of God.

[Grace Seeker]

So what was Christianity founded on? If it was not the OT which you claim to be only for the Jews then was it on the NT?

According to the majority of those who responded the "Who was the founder of Christianity" thread, it was neither the OT or the NT, but more specifically Paul's teachings.


The way I understand what Amigo has thus far said, it appears that like many in that thread Amigo thinks that Christianity was not founded on any written record at all either, but the teachings of a person. And in contradistinction to the majority in that other thread, it appears that Amigo thinks those teachings on which the early nascent Christian community was founded are those of the apostles with regard to the person of Jesus.

This isn't to invalidate your argument that scripture would be important. The early church did indeed have access to the Jewish scriptures -- most notably in the form of the LXX -- and would create their own in time. But that which formed them into a distinct community that would separate itself off from Judaism were the stories about Jesus that first circulated in the form of oral tradition and then incorporated into the liturgy that directed worship. These things shaped much of the future of the church before there was any written NT and more than the OT ever would.

Whether you like it or not a religion is based upon its scriptures and NOTHING from the teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus confirms ANY of your fundamental beliefs regarding Christianity. That is why you keep moving away from your scriptures.

Let me ask you a question, to see if you really think this is true: Was the Qur'an and the Hadeeth as you have it today required for the existence of Islam as a religion taught by the Prophet? Indeed, didn't the concept of Islam and of an Ummah exist long before the recitation of the scriptures that Muhammad was to receive had been complete? If that is so, then the Islam was not based on the Qur'an. It was based on an idea, that of Tawheed. The Qur'an (at least the complete Qur'an) would come later.

So too in Christianity. The idea of a new community created out of being united with God "in Christ" came into existence before the books that today tell that story of how God moved in and through Christ to reconcile us to himself were ever written down.

Thus, whether we are speaking of Islam or Christianity, we first had the message, and then the written record of that message. But the community affirmed that the written record was indeed that which was to be preserved as the scriptures of that faith community. So, first the message, then the faith community is establish, then a written record of that message is provided, and finally the community codifies this written record as its scriptures.

[Mister Agenda]

You seem to suppose that Christianity is/was founded on the Bible and that Faith is founded on books. Ever considered that the first Christians did not even have the NT and that the Christian Faith existed even before any of those Gospels and Epistles were written? :) Also, Jesus and Christians were always at odd with Jews over their interpretation of the OT. The OT interpretation that conflict with the NT is not really a Christian interpretation but a common Jewish/human interpretation, that very one which Jesus and the first Christians opposed and which actually causes Christianity to evolve separately from Judaism.

An other fact is that the first gentiles Christians did not even have the OT (this was generally a jewish document even though it contains some stories which involves the whole world).

I think Christianity would be better served by a revival of Marcionism (chuck the OT) since it is trying to brand itself as a kinder, gentler religion. I'm all for religions being kinder and gentler. I'm sure if I'd been raised Episcopelian, I'd have had lower expectations of the Bible. I have since observed that fundamentalism makes for an intense but brittle faith.

You may have a lighter load of cognitive dissonance than I did, but at this point, if there's a God, whether Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, or some other; he (or whatever pronoun applies) would know how to reach me, and is welcome to.

[Mister Agenda]

If you accept inshallah, I wish to invite you for Islam, the religion of our God.
What I can say for now, Islam in the Holy Quran, so if you did not accept the book (Quran) you will not accept the faith (Islam). I think you know that there is not even a single letter difference between any 2 Arabic Quran in the world since the time of Mohammed PBUH, but the translations are different.

I have posted on line, one of the best translations for the meanings of the Holy Quran, for Dr. Mahmud Ghali. PDF file with active links.
I wish you will have the time to read and judge it by yourself inshallah.

http://www.4shared.com/document/t0OL...ml%20%EF%BB%BF

You can find more translations on www.quran.com

BRMM

Thank you brmm, I appreciate the offer. I honestly don't see how I could wind up at theism again from where I am, but I'm interested in learning more about your religion. I expect I'll read a translation of the Qur'an at some point. I started to once already, but lost the book before I read very far. I prefer real books, but since it's readily available online, as you've pointed out, I should finish what I started one way or the other.

[Ramadhan]

You may have a lighter load of cognitive dissonance than I did, but at this point, if there's a God, whether Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, or some other; he (or whatever pronoun applies) would know how to reach me, and is welcome to.

How do you know that by coming here to an ISLAMIC board, it is actually not by Allah's will to guide you to the straight path and the truth?

[Amigo]

You may have a lighter load of cognitive dissonance than I did, but at this point, if there's a God, whether Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, or some other; he (or whatever pronoun applies) would know how to reach me, and is welcome to.

Well, the story of our human nature is more like that of the prodigal son. If you suppose that God needs you, I am afraid you may wait for him forever.
God only loves us. He does not need us.

[May Ayob]

Salaam Funny how every one here is so into such religous debates, people work on yourselves because one thing i know for sure is that talk won't grant you salvation from hell fire.

Salaam

[brmm]

Thank you brmm, I appreciate the offer. I honestly don't see how I could wind up at theism again from where I am, but I'm interested in learning more about your religion. I expect I'll read a translation of the Qur'an at some point. I started to once already, but lost the book before I read very far. I prefer real books, but since it's readily available online, as you've pointed out, I should finish what I started one way or the other.

You are welcome :)
I have tried to get this translation in a book for me, unfortunately it is not available any where on line.
In my opinion, as I know both Arabic and English,it is one of the best translations, the man who made it spent around 15 years to finish the work.

Maybe what I should say is that, Allah have made The Paradise and The Hell for only who gave them the ability to make their own decision, like us.
Inshallah you will decide to take the Paradise way.
In many cases, the difference in time between being a disbeliever and a believer is only part of a second.

[Mister Agenda]

How do you know that by coming here to an ISLAMIC board, it is actually not by Allah's will to guide you to the straight path and the truth?

I don't know that. But with me, Allah might want to be a little less subtle. :)

[Mister Agenda]

Well, the story of our human nature is more like that of the prodigal son. If you suppose that God needs you, I am afraid you may wait for him forever.
God only loves us. He does not need us.

In the same way one can love a child but not need it?

[Amigo]

In the same way one can love a child but not need it?

Love by its nature is self-sufficient if it is true. It is 'gratuit' as french people say. It does not need anything, it rather rejoice in the beloved freedom and life. It does not 'give' to 'get'. So similarly, for good parents, a child is both a gift to each other and a gift in/for himself. A child is not a product of need, that would not be a child but a slave.

[Amigo]

In the same way one can love a child but not need it?

Please explain. I should probably make sure I understand you right, before continuing...

[Futuwwa]

I think this thread is the wrong place to debate or contest other peoples' reasons to be dissatisfied with a particular religion. Or even engage in self-satisfied agreement with other peoples' reasons. Could we rather keep it to sharing?

[Mister Agenda]

You are right, Futuwwa. I will follow your suggestion.

[IAmZamzam]

I don't know that. But with me, Allah might want to be a little less subtle. :)

He may not be acting as subtle as you think. I felt much the same way when I came to boards like this as a deist.

[Mister Agenda]

You never know. Just because I don't see it coming doesn't mean it isn't. It just means that if it happens I'll be quite surprised.

[Novice]

1. Problem of Evil
2. Hell

[Crystal]

Riana it is nice to read this from you. As I was raised in a Catholic family so I can understand your views. I was always confused about Jesus in the bible too.
‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ [John 20:17]
It still amazes me how they teach something different when this verse is so clear.

The main thing that annoys me about Catholics I know is that they have never even read the bible or they don't even own a bible. It is strange that people call themselves Catholic when they don't even know what the religion is about. I think a lot comes down to fear of the unknown. People are afraid of things they don't know which can be seen when new cultures come to live in a country - people feel a bit threatened by a different way of life and they don't want to experience it. I always want to be open minded and search for the truth no matter where it comes from.

[Riana17]

Peace be with you Sister

I am pleased that you come across this thread.

I have summarized some confusion, let us see what BIBLE speaks about God

1. God - who created the World, seen and unseen, non is Comparable to Him, He is not a Man and He is the only One. Elah or Elohim to Jews, Allah to Arabs (even Christian Arabs), Dios to Spanish and God to most

2. Son of God - bible mentioned that God has many sons = Adam, Israel, Egypt, Ephraim, Jesus, Moises, Me and You too. Acts 17:28-29 We are all offspring of God

Okay LET'S assume God begets, hmm so it means Virgin Mary (pbuh) was the mother & wife? So now Virgin Mary becomes a bad woman, she divorced God and marry another one? I mean there is no LOGIC

Son of God simply means Servant of God

Bible disapproved the Trinity in any sense. Jesus himself said there is ONLY ONE GOD WHOM WE HAVE TO WORSHIP, JESUS FAST 40DAYS TO PLEASE GOD

The "SON OF GOD" title was given to others before and after Jesus in the Bible.

There is no Single Verse in the Bible that Jesus said "Worship me, God & I are equal in every sense"

Jesus was one of the Israeli but Jews rejected Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as a Prophet. How more of a God?

Muslims love Prophet Jesus (pbuh) more than anyone in this World, if Christian claims they love Jesus and they drink alcohol, eat PORK, do not fast, do not pray, do not follow his teachings, then we can conclude that their love for Jesus is absolutely FALSE.

Reading the following will make you understand that Priest wronged themselves, so no one can rely on them.

Quran 2:256 There is no Compulsion in religion, so I hope you will continue your discovery and eventually if your heart sincerely desires, may you find the perfect PATH. no single doubt or confusion

Here's the 10Commandments (from diff bible chapters) and other verses that are self explanatory

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before me.	6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 7 you shall have no other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.	8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, 10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments

Luke 4:5-8 “The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’
Jesus answered, ‘it is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only”
“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your Only God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” ….Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him..”




Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am the ONLY God, and not man--the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath.
Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says:
Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

1 Corinthians 8:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one

Galatians 3:20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?
Mark 12:29 "The most important one Commandment," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (This is four out of 10Commandments, no idol, no human, no trinity, when we say one, IT IS ABSOLUTELY ONE)

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Romans 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Zechariah 14:9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

What JESUS SAID?
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'
Luke 18:18-19 A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
‘Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’”

Matthew 22:38 But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which Jesus says: There is no God but ONE


Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Hosea 11 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son (Jacob)

Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Isaiah 63:16 But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Luke 3:38 Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God.

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Humans, angels etc are referred to as sons/children of God elsewhere in the Bible {(Deut 14:1, Is 43:6, (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)


Exodus 20:23 Do not make any gods to be alongside Me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
Exodus 32:31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a greatest sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.
Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

---

Exodus 34:17 "Do not make cast idols.

---

Leviticus 19:4 "'Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed is the man who carves an image or casts an idol--a thing detestable to the LORD, the work of the craftsman's hands--and sets it up in secret." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,

Deuteronomy 4:23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden.

Isaiah 44:9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.

Isaiah 44:19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"

Deuteronomy 29:17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold.

Isaiah 45:20 "Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.
Hosea 4:12 of my people. They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. A spirit of prostitution leads them astray; they are unfaithful to their God.

Isaiah 44:17-18 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.

Hosea 13:2 Now they sin more and more; they make idols for themselves from their silver, cleverly fashioned images, all of them the work of craftsmen. It is said of these people, "They offer human sacrifice and kiss the calf-idols."

Isaiah 44:17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god."
1 Chronicles 17:13 I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son (Solomon); I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you,
Begotten Son
Psalms 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son (David); today I have begotten you.
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”

['Abd-al Latif]

Islam was also founded by a human. It does not matter if the word Christian or Muslim appear in a text, because of point number two.

You're mistaken, Islam was not founded by any human but was a revelation revealed to a human. There is a difference between the two and it is proven in many verses of the Qur'an. Muhammed (:saws1:) did not attribute the Qur'an as his own speech nor did he ask for wordly riches or gain for accepting Islam. He faced trials and tribulations like all other prophets to prove his genuineness; no human being would undergo what he went through except that he would lose patience and give up.

Anyone who has read the Qur'an knows that it is entirely focused on Allah and not Muhammed. Al in the word Allah in the Arabic language is the definite article for the in English, while lah is the one whorshipped: God. Thus when you say Allah it leaves no ambiguity as to whom we worship.

The Qur'an says: "O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve” [al-Maa’idah 5:67]

"Say (O Muhammad): 'I don’t tell you that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor (that) I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me.’ Say: 'Are the blind and the one who sees equal? Will you not then take thought?'" [al-An’aam 6:50]

The Quran is not written by God either. Just like the bible it is a book written by a human hand. Both claim to be inspired or dictated by God. Both require faith to believe that. That one is a single book and one is a collection of books, assembled through the guidance of divine spirit a christian would claim, makes little difference

That's correct, the Qur'an was written down by the companions of the Messenger of God. But it is the literal spoken word of God that, after its revelation, was preserved in writing form for the latter generations to learn from. Verbally passing down the message could have been changed, altered or forgotten knowingly or unknowingly. The Qur'an was never "inspired by God", Muslims never claimed that and it is incorrect for you to attribute this to Islam or Muslim. We have always claimed this to be the literal word of God revealed to Muhammed (:saws1:).

['Abd-al Latif]

Also to Pygoscelis, you asked about the relevance of sexual relations in first post by Riana. The relevance that this has to with divine revelation is that God always calls for morality, ethics, principles and laws that govern and preserve the uprightness and integrity of individuals, families and society at large. The very make-up of a prosperous society lies in the adherence to these correct principles and laws that would unify it and direct it towards success and prosperity. So when the Bible mentions illicit sexual relations with people whom a lay man would reject, how much more revulsive and repugnant is it when the righteous are wrongly portrayed as such? What kind of society is this kind of message trying to create?

Thus, Riana's post about the mention of sexual relations occurring frequently has significant relevance.

[Riana17]

Salam Alaikkum
Many Christian parents had a wakeup call and even stopped their teenage to read the bible because of illicit sexual verses, they are just too much and seriously disturbing.

Istigfurallah, too far from words of Allah, these are just few


GENESIS
19:1-8 Rape virgins instead of male angels
19:30-38 Righteous man impregnates his 2 daughters while drunk
24:2-3, 9 Place your hand "under the thigh" (sexual organs) of someone swearing sacred oaths
25:1-6 Keeping mistresses is not adultery
32:25 God grabs Jacob's testicles
34:1-31 Brothers are riled when sister is defiled
35:2 Reuben sleeps with father's concubine
38:12-30 Tamar plays the harlot to seduce father-in-law
39:1-20 Women tries to rape man
47:29 Joseph ordered to place his hand under father's thigh
RUTH
3:6-9 To "hook" him as husband, Ruth sleeps with Boaz
4:9-10 Boaz buys Ruth
HOSEA
1:2-11 God tells Hosea to take ***** to wife
2:1-15 Complications ensue (lewdly described)
NAHUM
3:4-6 Lord: "I will discover thy skirts upon thy face"
MALACHI
2:1-4 An angry god will spread feces on your faces
REVELATION
17:1-6 A ***** is stripped, eaten and burned



Another important issue is the JIHAD, THEY said Jesus Preached PEACE but that's totally wrong
LUKE
12:51-2 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."
14:26 "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
19:27 "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
MATTHEW
10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."
10:35-6 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

[Grace Seeker]

Son of God simply means Servant of God

"Simply?"

My experience is that in life most words and phrases have more than one meaning, and certianly more than one connotation to them. I find this true not just in daily life, but in the various scriptures of the world as well. If it were not so, there would be only one translation needed from any one language into another. But in truth there are many, and beyond that many interpretations whether one is speaking of the Bible or the Qur'an or the scriptures of other religions.

No doubt it works in many instances to understand "Son of God" as speaking of one who understands him/herself as simply a "servant" of God. But I do no find that it is not the one and only way the phrase is used.

(Though, I will grant you this Riana, if one is going to only have exactly one understanding of this particular phrase, I would much rather see people utilize the one you have suggested than get erroneously locked into thinking of "Son" in biological terms. So, I do appreciate what you have written on the subject.)

Peace.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Riana posted some good things, but I am not sure that I agree with this one.

Another important issue is the JIHAD, THEY said Jesus Preached PEACE but that's totally wrong
LUKE
12:51-2 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."
14:26 "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
19:27 "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
MATTHEW
10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."
10:35-6 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

I think that the "sword" in this case is figurative and not literal. Jesus means that his message will divide families and communities, thus he will "bring the sword" and turn friends and brothers against each other regarding his message. I don't think Jesus was talking about bringing war and destruction.

But I could be wrong. This is just my opinion on the subject. Otherwise, I agree with what you said, sister.

[Grace Seeker]

There is no Single Verse in the Bible that Jesus said "Worship me, God & I are equal in every sense"

This would be more relevant if one is working from the premise that Jesus spoke directly with regard to all truth, and that nothing that he did not speak directly about should be considered truth. But let us test whether that theory is one that Muslims actually hold to.

Many Muslims believe that the Bible prophecies the coming of Muhammad (pbuh). They do so based on verses like:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)
and
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—" (John 14:16)
Yet, these are not clear and direct statements that say, "Muhammad is God's prophet." Indeed, in my opinion, it takes some linguistic gymnatics to believe that these speak of Muhammad at all. Nonetheless, I recognize that though we may have a difference of opinion on that issue, that Muslims do indeed genuinely see Muhammad mentioned in these verses. The point of that being Muslims are quite ready to accept as a truth of the scriptures that which they have inferred, however indirectly and obliquely the claim is found. Thus, for Muslims to ask for a direct quote with regard to Jesus is to ask for something more of Chrisitain theology than they ask of an Islamic reading of the same scriptures.


There are plenty of references made in scripture to Jesus' diety. Some are directly made by the apostles and other New Testament authors. And in the actions of Jesus we see such claims acted out as surely as if they were the direct quote asked for. From these testimonies and then from the indirect words of Jesus, we infer that it is true Jesus is the divine being incarnated in a human body. He and the Father are one, not just metaphysically, but even ontologically, for according to John he was not only in the beginning with God, but he was God and it was through him that all things were made that have been made (John 1:1-3, see also Colossians 1:16 for this concept expressed by yet another NT author).



And with regard to the "sword" mentioned above, I would have to echo King of Nines comments on it being a figurative not a literal sword. But I don't think that negates your argument about Jesus intoducing the idea of Jihad. The use of a figurative sword still indicates a struggle. I tend to think that the struggle is one that finds those who adhere to Jesus' followers rather than them initiating it -- for instance because they won't bow down to Ceasar -- but that doesn't lessen the reality of Jesus followers being called to be engaged in a very real struggle.


Keep thinking. I respect your efforts at this sort of analysis, just making note of a few points where we disagree with regard to our respective conclusions.

[Ramadhan]

Per usual, a christian pastor who advances biblical verses that agree with his belief while hiding other verses that are outright against what he believes in.
what's new.
when even a pastor could pick and choose what he likes from bible, what is different than from a buffet?

[Riana17]

Peace to all

Its nice to see you again Pastor, I dont mean to upset you, I just want to share the truth that I believe in but I dont mean to force anyone to believe in what I believe too, and Brother KoN, I respect your views, Jesus preached Jihad is not originally my opinion, I agree with scholars.

Anyhow, let us PLEASE PLEASE give chance and hear from someone who had Master of Divinity from Harvard University who was a sincere typical Christian and was exposed with the oldest bible, talking in public, not afraid to tell the truth in very calm way, pls lets have patience and watch this, its a bit long video but we all want the truth and its up to us to accept or not, Again Quran 2:256 There is no complusion in religion.

[Crystal]

Prophet Jesus also prayed to God which is strange if he was God. Too many contradictions in the bible regarding this issue. Have to say the quran is much clearer on the issue of Prophet Jesus and doesn't beat it around the bush.

[Riana17]

Prophet Jesus also prayed to God which is strange if he was God. Too many contradictions in the bible regarding this issue. Have to say the quran is much clearer on the issue of Prophet Jesus and doesn't beat it around the bush.

Salam Sister

The very mistake of Christians is fully relying on their Priest or the church, one cannot depend fate to others, we must work hard and discover and see it for ourselves.


Sister please see this, If you are truly interested in finding out the truth, in God's will this one will really help you

[Riana17]

Many Muslims believe that the Bible prophecies the coming of Muhammad (pbuh). They do so based on verses like:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)

Peace be with you Pastor,

Those are some of the verses that are pretty understandable if does not appeal to you, I am with you, we should not have doubt or better have no religion at all.
So I would like to share you a verse which exactlymentions our beloved Prophet's (pbuh) name

Song of Solomon 5:16
"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem."
חכו ממתקים וכלו מחמדים זה דודי וזה רעי בנות ירושלם׃

Aramaic, Arabic & Hebrew are sisters languages:

For example, English letter A & B are equal to Alif & Ba in Arabic while Aleph Beth in Hebrew alphabet

So when you translate a name Muhammadim (Hebrew) to Arabic it is equal to Muhammad or Muhammadin

Also you might say Muhammadim is not Muhammad

Arabic names have corresponding meaning and they are not like other foreign names (e.g. English name Tom or Tim doesnt have any meaning),

For example - my Name Riana or Rihanna means a good smell (herb)

Now while using the word 'smell' in a sentence, one should say
Riha رائحة

So when you write a sentence or engage in conversation, if one meant to say she is good smell she cant say "Ana (I am) Riana" she must use the word Riha (smell) because every Arabic people knows RIANA or RIHANNA is NAME of a person.

So now let's translate the "He is altogether lovely" to Arabic

انه هو كل شيء جميل معا
Enaho howa kola shayen jamelen ma3an

זה הכל ביחד יפה

One cannot return the altogether lovely to word MUHAMMAD or MUHAMMADIM even in its original text which is HEBREW
Finally let's translate the English word Muhammadim to Original Hebrew text, it would be
מחמדletters Mem, Het, Mem, Dalet

& in ARABIC it would be م ح م د
CONNECT the letters together it would be محمد
Letters Mem, Ha, Mem, Da

Note that both languages does not have vowels, so if I, myself (NON ARAB) read as Muhamed or Mahamad or Mahamed (MUHAMMADIM in Hebrew and Muhammadin in Arabic) - they are all correct in both languages and no other meaning for those names except a name of a person.

P.S. As I said there is no VOWELS in Hebrew and Arabic alphabets but there's something called tanween, kasrah, fatha, dhammah etc in this languages which is like vowel FOR CORRECT PRONUNCIATION for OUTSIDERS like us (note that native people do not use this even on OFFICIAL purpose because they know their system, they know that محمد
is not Mahumed or Mehamud or Mahamad, but it is Muhammad) ONLY YOU & I are acceptable by Arabs to read it in our way when KASRAH, fatha etc are not present because of course we dont know it)

NOW I WILL COMPLETE YOU THE MUHAMMADIN in ARABIC, note again pls, they are STILL 4LETTERS, no alibaba (cheating lol)
مُحَمَّدٍ
pls read from Left, the first CONSONANT (M) has to be read with to vowel O or U,
next consonant with A,
next repeat the CONSONANT letter & read with vowel A,
and the last to add IN in pronunciation

Muhammadin or Muhammadim is exactly Muhammad be it Hebrew or Arabic, but in gramatical sense - MUHAMMADIN is respectable word referring to Muhammad. E.g. Ellah (God in Hebrew) & Elohim or Yahweh -

Again what is YHWH in Hebrew?
The custom of substituting God's Hebrew name a high degree of respect and reverence. Yahweh in English means 'MY LORD'

another example, we address our Creator (Allah) as ALLAHU - I think Allahu Akbar is familiar to you, which means My God is Great

I have pasted the video here to hear it yourself and also for translation help, please use google or any site be it Jewish translation website.






Note: There are some Arabic words like names of the month that can be used as name of the person. e.g. RAMADHAN
In this way, you can figure out if a sentence is talking about the person or the holy month of Ramadhan i.e.
Shawwal comes after Ramadhan or Ramadhan focuses our sincerity to God.
Ramadhan prefers Brother Grace Seeker over Riana.


In this case
"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

The above sentence is clearly talking about a PERSON, plus there is no other use for MUHAMMAD, some of the meanings of Muhammad are PRAISE (that's how they come up with ALTOGETHER LOVELY- hmm they praise our beloved Prophet) and other meaning is thanks

so a WORD Thanks derive from Muhammad when using in a statement is equal to NAHMUDOO... a most common words for thanks used on daily basis is SHOKRAN

SUPPOSE a person called 'JOHN GRACE', went to Spain - will he accept if Spanish people calls him 'Juan Gracia' or 'Lababo Gracia?' In my Country Gracia means blessings and also a name of a WOMAN, also Lababo means a sink, so if that's possible if John Grace visits my country I may call him Blessed Sink (or the other way round)

Or if my name is JAMES and I go to Italya will I accept if they call me GIACOMO?
Some people dont mind, but officially that's not possible suppose GIACOMO commits a crime, JAMES can surely deny he isnt GIACOMO

To conclude, Arabic is totally different from English or other languages.
And UNIVERSAL RULE: PASSPORT NAME is not translatable