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Just_A_Girl13
05-25-2011, 08:33 PM
Peace be with you,

Before I discovered Islam and wanted to revert, I was seriously considering a career as a professional singer. It is my dream to become a singer and Allah gave me a beautiful voice. I was wondering if, as a Muslim, I could still pursue this career? Or would that be haraam?

Also, about musical instruments. I play the violin and I hear that musical instruments are less permissible than vocal music. Is this true? I want to become a Muslim but I don't want to quit playing the violin. Please help!
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JOHNJOHN
05-25-2011, 09:18 PM
Peace,


I have Read many times the Quran and I have seen nothing forbideen the Music.

Maybe I am wrong can somebody help us about the question, thank you.
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al yunan
05-25-2011, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
Also, about musical instruments. I play the violin and I hear that musical instruments are less permissible than vocal music. Is this true? I want to become a Muslim but I don't want to quit playing the violin. Please help!

Salam sister,

You should look through past threads as this subject was just recently covered.

Masalam
Reply

czgibson
05-25-2011, 09:30 PM
Greetings,

Here is a list of threads that address the topic of music:

http://www.islamicboard.com/search.php?searchid=16369

Peace
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Beardo
05-25-2011, 09:50 PM
^ That link didn't work for me for some reason.

It seems like nobody wants to discuss it.

I'll wait for someone to explain/discuss it further as well. But it would probably be better to pursue a different career. Perhaps you could even be a lyric writer.
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Just_A_Girl13
05-25-2011, 10:03 PM
The link didn't work for me either :( I would appreciate it if someone would offer advice pertaining to my specific situation, as I have researched at other sources and found them to be a bit vague.

Peace be with you
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al yunan
05-25-2011, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Beardo
Perhaps you could even be a lyric writer.

Why not a Qariah ?
She said she has a good voice !
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-25-2011, 10:08 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

We have to be careful when we use the word 'Haraam'.. Haraam means something that is forbidden for us, why? because it is bad for us, sometimes we are aware of the wisdom behind a certain thing and sometimes we are not aware, so for this it requires faith/Emaan..And so there are many ways to gain that faith..

To your Question singing is allowed without music and not infront of non-mahram someone who is a stranger man to you, it would be okay within your house, with your husband, family etc..

The topic of music has been discussed for a long time, and so there are those who say it is forbidden and those who say it is not.. Music that contains words of no benefit and has musical instruments is something that is of no benefit towards one..Whereas if its singing on its own with words that are of no harm then there is no bad insha'Allaah..

Music is something that supposedly makes a person tend to them(thats one way i can put it i guess),for example when your sad one resorts to listening to music, when ones happy they want to make things extra exciting by listening to some sort of music or because its like a drug they never want to let go. However, in the case of Islaam, the recitation of Qur'aan is what is the real thing to listen to..

I heard in a lecture once, and i can say i agree with this from experience im sure you will too though im not sure if i will make sense so i apologise for that :\

The heart can love one thing at a time ( i think it started of like this :\ ) so when you listen to Music your heart will love it, it will not want to let go, one can only come up with excuses to defend music..but the thing that is saddening is that if someone tells you to listen to the Qur'aan, a recitation of Fatiha or surah Al Noor or any recitation of the holy Qur'aan, the heart will not be satisfied, it only desires for what you have given it, due to the love of music, one may ask, could you give up this music for the sake of the recitation of the Qur'aan? no, as it will become difficult, this is true..

On the other hand, one who devotes himself to listening to the recitation of the Qur'aan, the person is in love with the recitations similar to how someone would be in love with music. But if you listen to the music, your heart will hate it and not desire it. So tell me is it better to devote yourself to the word of your lord, or that which was created by man? Is not the recitation of the Qur'aan beautiful, so that you may never give it up due to it sounding so beautiful?

Also i will mention, if it is something that takes you away from the remembrance of your creator, then stay away from it, then it is made forbidden towards oneself because no benefit is being gained...

I hope i havent offended anyone and i had no intention to, please do ask away if you have any questions remaining insha'Allaah

may Allaah guide us to do what is best for us and stay away from that which takes us away from the Remembrance of the allmighty Aameen
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czgibson
05-25-2011, 10:50 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Beardo
That link didn't work for me for some reason.
Sorry about that. Strange.

The link was simply a search of the thread titles for the word "music". Maybe a search result like that can only be viewed by the person searching? That could be the problem.

Music is a topic that comes up often, and so people normally just refer newer posters to the threads that already exist on the subject. I can understand why it comes up so often - music is very important to a huge number of people, and many people are surprised when they find out that a majority of Muslim scholars regard it as sinful.

Peace
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Just_A_Girl13
05-25-2011, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by al yunan
Why not a Qariah ? She said she has a good voice !
What is a Qariah?
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Just_A_Girl13
05-25-2011, 11:33 PM
Also, I have heard from some sources that singing would be okay if I didn't make any suggestive movements or sing anything with lyrics that went against the word of Allah (s.w.t.), i.e. songs with sexually suggestive lyrics or songs that referenced anything that is haraam. Is this true? Is it possible for me to continue my musical education while still being a good Muslim? I really don't want to quit music, but likewise I want to revert to Islam!
Reply

al yunan
05-25-2011, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
What is a Qariah?
Salam sister,

A female expert Quran reciter.

As for all your other questions, the only way you will ever proper answers is when you belong to a Mathab (school of thought) as random answers even if true will not explain the whole picture to you plus you get also contradictions of interpretations and end up more confused than ever.
In other words you need one source only to follow.
When you have Inshallah been a few years in Islam you will understand the importance of sources.

Masalam
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Flame of Hope
05-26-2011, 12:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
Before I discovered Islam and wanted to revert, I was seriously considering a career as a professional singer. It is my dream to become a singer and Allah gave me a beautiful voice. I was wondering if, as a Muslim, I could still pursue this career? Or would that be haraam?

Also, about musical instruments. I play the violin and I hear that musical instruments are less permissible than vocal music. Is this true? I want to become a Muslim but I don't want to quit playing the violin. Please help!
Peace be unto you too.....

Becoming a Muslim is easy. To become a true Muslim takes time.

You must learn to have patience with yourself and not take on more than you can chew. Your first and foremost duty is to seek knowledge and strengthen your faith. Let that be your topmost priority. If your faith is not strong you will find countless difficulties on the way.

There have been people who very enthusiastically embraced Islam....... but after a while, they left it because they found it too difficult to adhere to the rules. Some became too obsessed with what was halal and what was haram...... and they lost focus on the main reason why they accepted Islam in the first place.

Islam is not about what is halal and haram........ it's about sincerity. On the Day of Judgement, sincerity towards Allah will be only thing that counts.

You are first sincere and then avoid the haram...... not the other way round. You don't give up music and singing and then become sincere. That's not how it works.

So stay focused on what counts. Keep your eyes upon the road.....pray to God to guide you.......be sincere towards Him.

And if you become sincere, you will automatically desire to do the things that please Him and avoid the things that displease Him. To get to that stage will of course TAKE TIME.

Know your priorities.

Hope this helps in some way.
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Tyrion
05-26-2011, 01:14 AM
People here consider it haram, so those are the kinds of answers you're going to get from this forum. (Actually, that's not entirely true... I've noticed that there are a number of people here who also don't consider music haram, but they don't speak up. It's just the vocal members who are of the opinion that it's haram.) I personally don't, and there are scholars who hold different opinions. Your best bet would be to go and talk to some scholars (through email, or in person... whichever is possible for you) and try to get an explanation from them on the differing opinions. Also study it for yourself, and then you can probably make up your own mind. Don't obsess over it too much, especially as a new Muslim... There are far more important things to get down first, and especially with matters that have differences of opinion it's dangerous to get too obsessed...
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-26-2011, 08:53 AM
Greetings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
Also, I have heard from some sources that singing would be okay if I didn't make any suggestive movements or sing anything with lyrics that went against the word of Allah (s.w.t.), i.e. songs with sexually suggestive lyrics or songs that referenced anything that is haraam. Is this true? Is it possible for me to continue my musical education while still being a good Muslim? I really don't want to quit music, but likewise I want to revert to Islam!
I agree with sister Flame

But being careful is a priority..Considering music as a career would require non-mahram listening to you..also

Anyways i would advice you to start of with the basics of Islaam and then slowly step by step things will make sense to you..If you feel you have doubt about whether music is permissable or not keep in mind a lot of is forbidden, like the instruments, though singing is not, but this does not mean we are enabled to become a professional singer, it means you can sing infront of your sisters, your family, husband etc.

Anyways, check this thread out insha'Allaah

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...-download.html
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Impey
05-26-2011, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм;1441965]
Anyways i would advice you to start of with the basics of Islaam and then slowly step by step things will make sense to you..If you feel you have doubt about whether music is permissable or not keep in mind a lot of is forbidden, like the instruments, though singing is not, but this does not mean we are enabled to become a professional singer, it means you can sing infront of your sisters, your family, husband etc.

Anyways, check this thread out insha'Allaah[\quote]
I looked at this link but although it supports (I think) than ban it gives no reason - is there a reason anywhere. Also why a ban on silk and is silk as bad as Music?
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-26-2011, 01:36 PM
[QUOTE=Impey;1441995]
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Anyways i would advice you to start of with the basics of Islaam and then slowly step by step things will make sense to you..If you feel you have doubt about whether music is permissable or not keep in mind a lot of is forbidden, like the instruments, though singing is not, but this does not mean we are enabled to become a professional singer, it means you can sing infront of your sisters, your family, husband etc.

Anyways, check this thread out insha'Allaah[\quote]
I looked at this link but although it supports (I think) than ban it gives no reason - is there a reason anywhere. Also why a ban on silk and is silk as bad as Music?
Assalaamu Alaaykum dear sis/bro

Did you read my previous post on this thread? Actually there are many reasons, some of them are those mentioned in my post, and a number of threads, and scholars, some even say singing is forbidden.

maybe this thread thread will help a little more insha'Allaah

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...nal-story.html

I hope someone can enlighten you more on the topic, and please use the search bar more often..

I have a question now : D, for those who do listen to music, could you tell me would you give up the music for the sake of listening to the KalaamAllaah (Word of Allaah-Qur'aan)..please be truthful and also if you dont know, then try stopping music alltogether and start listening to the Qur'aan, am sure there you will recieve your answer..if you feel you cannot give up music for the sake of Qur'aan then ultimately that is a reason to give it up and a reasonably it makes it forbidden for you because it is taking you away from the remembrance of Allaah clearly...

Check this out hopefully you will understand a bit more on what im saying..

--->>> http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=31&tid=40607 <<<---
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Just_A_Girl13
05-26-2011, 04:48 PM
Thank you brothers and sisters, that is very helpful to me. I will give some thought to what you have said and make some adjustments before I take my shahadah. Peace be with you :)
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-26-2011, 04:54 PM
^No problem..may Allaah guide you to the best and increase you in knowledge regarding the deen Aameen

Also if i havent mentioned it anywhere, take things step by step and not by steps that will take you away, instead with sincerety and also focus on the basics also, step by step insha'Allaah things will become easy for you..
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Flame of Hope
05-26-2011, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
Thank you brothers and sisters, that is very helpful to me. I will give some thought to what you have said and make some adjustments before I take my shahadah. Peace be with you
Peace be with you too sis.....

I wonder if you have heard of Cat Stevens, the singer. He embraced Islam and changed his name to Yusuf Islam. He was asked the question whether he ever said that music was forbidden. Here is his reply to that question, which I think would help put your mind at ease and at peace...... :)

-----------------------------

Didn’t He Say Music is Forbidden?


Never did I ever state that I believed music was objected to by God; or that I had given it up forever.

Interestingly, the word ‘music’ is not to be found anywhere in the Qur’an and there is no such word ever used by the Prophet in his authentic sayings. [1] However, there are many different opinions, and valid ones at that, about music which indicates that it is not to be taken as a hard and fast question of faith, but is simply a matter of fiqh (juristic interpretations regarding rules of life) – over which scholars may legitimately differ. [2]

When I embraced Islam on 23rd December, 1977, I was still making records. After informing the chief Imam at London’s Central Mosque of my work in music, he encouraged me to continue composing and recording.

Nevertheless, it didn’t take long to realise that apart from the creative side, there were many other aspects about the music industry which infringed negatively on the Islamic way of life so I simply decided to give up the music business. As a new Muslim this allowed me to concentrate fully on learning and practising Islam, getting married starting a family and returning back to look after my parents.

In the first interview I ever gave to a Muslim magazine back in 1980, I was asked about my thoughts on music, I said in reply:

“I have suspended my activities in music for fear that they may divert me from the true path, but I will not be dogmatic in saying that I will never make music again. You can’t say that without adding, ‘Insha Allah’ (if God Wishes).” [3]

There were many Muslims offering me advice and telling me their opinions about all sorts of issues, some where very convincing. Nevertheless, legitimate variant opinions exist on all sides dealing with the subject of music. When closely studying the details of Prophetic evidences, there are many which point to the possibility of wide-ranging conclusions. Now, after having studied the subject for more than a quarter of a century, I can say that it is certainly not as black and white as some have tried to make it out to be.

In Islam, as with religion and life generally, there always will be room for cultural and artistic expression. Some of the most beautiful works of art in human history have been lovingly dedicated in praise of the Divine. Their enjoyments are part of the gifts given to mankind by the Creator. As we read in the Qur’an itself:

“Say: Who has forbidden the beauteous (gifts) of God, which He has produced for His worshippers, and the pure and clean provisions? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, and purely for them on the Day of Judgement. Thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who understand.” [4]

Music is part of God’s universe. We need all sorts of nourishment and music fulfils and satisfies the hunger we all experience and the need for harmony and aesthetic beauty to decorate our daily lives, particularly when times are hard.

Sometimes songs are vital in keeping people’s spirits high in times of trial and hardship. This understanding was brought home to me when I listened to the inspiring cassettes coming out of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the early 1990’s after the onslaught of the genocide against Muslims; a turning point in my understanding of the need for music in certain conditions and times.

[1] There are some references to musical instruments in certain reported sayings, but the definition is not clear as to exactly what instruments the word, ‘ma’azif’ (the word quoted in the Hadith) refers to in the most authentic source, Al-Bukhari. It is well known that the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed the drum and even the flute to be played in his presence without ordering them to be broken or destroyed, so it leaves a question open. The Hadith referenced here also mentions ‘silk’ as being amongst other prohibited articles, however, every scholar knows that silk is not completely forbidden and there are allowances for ladies to use it freely as well as for medical reasons; buying and selling silk and using certain amounts for ornament and decoration are also allowed.

[2] Fatwas are usually made and issued by scholars in cases like these where such issues are not clear cut and are ambiguous.

[3] The Muslim, May – June, 1980

[4] The Qur’an: The Heights (7), verse 32


--------------------------

source
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by Flame
It is well known that the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed the drum and even the flute to be played in his presence without ordering them to be broken or destroyed, so it leaves a question open. The Hadith referenced here also mentions ‘silk’ as being amongst other prohibited articles, however, every scholar knows that silk is not completely forbidden and there are allowances for ladies to use it freely as well as for medical reasons; buying and selling silk and using certain amounts for ornament and decoration are also allowed.
I have read a hadeeth regarding the permissability of playing the drum known as the duff, but not the flute, do you have references regarding this insha'Allaah

Also as far as i am aware silk is forbidden for men only and not women..could you enlighten me on this insha'Allaah

Jazakallaahu Khaayr
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Who Am I?
05-26-2011, 05:44 PM
As long as I can keep my Hendrix and Stones, I'm good with this...
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Perseveranze
05-26-2011, 06:31 PM
Cat Stevens left his multi-million Music career when he reverted to Islam. Although the majority scholars say that Music is forbidden (except for certain instruments) there are still some that argue that it isn't forbidden. This debate is all based on Hadiths.

I do not think singing is disallowed though, people sing Nasheeds all over the world.
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Just_A_Girl13
05-26-2011, 06:47 PM
What about playing the violin? And what if I only played in private or in front of women and mahram men? Would that be acceptable? I'm not trying to be annoying or nagging, I am just curious as to my specific situation.
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Just_A_Girl13
05-26-2011, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Flame
Fatwas are usually made and issued by scholars in cases like these where such issues are not clear cut and are ambiguous.
What are fatwas?
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Tyrion
05-26-2011, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
What are fatwas?
Religious rulings/opinions given out by qualified scholars.
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Impey
05-27-2011, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Just_A_Girl13
Peace be with you,

Before I discovered Islam and wanted to revert, I was seriously considering a career as a professional singer. It is my dream to become a singer and Allah gave me a beautiful voice. I was wondering if, as a Muslim, I could still pursue this career? Or would that be haraam?

Also, about musical instruments. I play the violin and I hear that musical instruments are less permissible than vocal music. Is this true? I want to become a Muslim but I don't want to quit playing the violin. Please help!
If as you say God has given you these two wonderful gifts it cannot be for you to just throw them away. I cannot see why your music cannot be entirely devoted to God and in and through it you can bring joy and beauty to others as well as perhaps draw them to God. I don't follow it closely, but there are a number of Gospel musicians who travel widely and give almost all the earning to Charities of various kinds - that to me is both good and a worthwhile use of your gifts.
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Impey
05-27-2011, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Cat Stevens left his multi-million Music career when he reverted to Islam. Although the majority scholars say that Music is forbidden (except for certain instruments) there are still some that argue that it isn't forbidden. This debate is all based on Hadiths.

I do not think singing is disallowed though, people sing Nasheeds all over the world.
About 2 years ago this artist made another recording (I have it) after many years believing music was wrong. But if I remember correctly, he made a study of music or it might have been the Guitar in Muslim Spain and concluded that there was nothing to stop him recording. His point was that it is obvious that there is bad Music and there are bad situation where Music is involved.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-27-2011, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
If as you say God has given you these two wonderful gifts it cannot be for you to just throw them away. I cannot see why your music cannot be entirely devoted to God and in and through it you can bring joy and beauty to others as well as perhaps draw them to God. I don't follow it closely, but there are a number of Gospel musicians who travel widely and give almost all the earning to Charities of various kinds - that to me is both good and a worthwhile use of your gifts.
Did Jesus (pbuh) use use/listen or create music? praise god with music, like many do in some churches?

Also God gave some women beauty, do you think they should go show their beauty to the world? No she would respect herself and obey God to cover herself, and for her husband and those whom she is allowed i.e.father, brother, son etc etc...

Is not the word of God not enough to be used to guide people, to devote themselves to his commandments? to implement the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)?

Yes there are many gifts God blesses us with no doubt..
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Impey
05-27-2011, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм;1442048]
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Did you read my previous post on this thread? Actually there are many reasons, some of them are those mentioned in my post, and a number of threads, and scholars, some even say singing is forbidden.
Yes I can see that anyone can invent reasons but are there any - what shall we can them 'official reasons' like the stuff cited from Bukhari?

I did look at the link you gave but I found this in one post:
"Those who advocate that music is ok are only decieving themselves for the first to sing was shaythan and shaythan circulates in the blood stream of those who listen to music often."

Well I am new here but what on earth does it mean to have Shaythan (Satan?) circulating in the blood? I used to sing a lullaby or a song sometimes to my kids when they were unwell to sooth and comfort them - surely I did not have Shaytan in my blood? I don't though like actually singing myself very much but does Islam teach that all those millions of Christians singing in church in Sunday have satan circulating in the blood also? Please explain?

I have a question now : D, for those who do listen to music, could you tell me would you give up the music for the sake of listening to the KalaamAllaah (Word of Allaah-Qur'aan)..please be truthful and also if you dont know, then try stopping music alltogether and start listening to the Qur'aan, am sure there you will recieve your answer..if you feel you cannot give up music for the sake of Qur'aan then ultimately that is a reason to give it up and a reasonably it makes it forbidden for you because it is taking you away from the remembrance of Allaah clearly...
Not being a Muslim I found this a strange sort of question. As a Muslim surely one cannot be listening to the Qu'ran all the time, there must be room for other things? Incidentally, did you mean listening in Arabic (how many actually understand it/) or a native language or perhaps it does not matter?
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al yunan
05-27-2011, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Not being a Muslim I found this a strange sort of question. As a Muslim surely one cannot be listening to the Qu'ran all the time, there must be room for other things? Incidentally, did you mean listening in Arabic (how many actually understand it/) or a native language or perhaps it does not matter?

Not being a Muslim you are not expected to understand and even less to comment !:heated:

Most if not all of us here welcome questions :statisfie but few if any care for negative comentaries especially in matters that concern Muslims only.^o)
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Impey
05-27-2011, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by al yunan
Not being a Muslim you are not expected to understand and even less to comment !:heated:

Most if not all of us here welcome questions :statisfie but few if any care for negative comentaries especially in matters that concern Muslims only.^o)
I this a rule of the Board, if so I was not aware of it? - I just took it as a reply to my post and I replied back, there seemed no hint that ONLY a Muslim could reply. I did not think what I said was negative as such - but are you saying that one cannot be negative about anything in Islam?
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-27-2011, 07:24 PM
Greetings of peace


[QUOTE=Impey;1442513]
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Yes I can see that anyone can invent reasons but are there any - what shall we can them 'official reasons' like the stuff cited from Bukhari?

I did look at the link you gave but I found this in one post:
"Those who advocate that music is ok are only decieving themselves for the first to sing was shaythan and shaythan circulates in the blood stream of those who listen to music often."

Well I am new here but what on earth does it mean to have Shaythan (Satan?) circulating in the blood? I used to sing a lullaby or a song sometimes to my kids when they were unwell to sooth and comfort them - surely I did not have Shaytan in my blood? I don't though like actually singing myself very much but does Islam teach that all those millions of Christians singing in church in Sunday have satan circulating in the blood also? Please explain?



Not being a Muslim I found this a strange sort of question. As a Muslim surely one cannot be listening to the Qu'ran all the time, there must be room for other things? Incidentally, did you mean listening in Arabic (how many actually understand it/) or a native language or perhaps it does not matter?
Thank you for the reply i appreciate it..

Firslty the music i was referring to was of that which contains musical instruments, a lullaby is not dangerous nor is it something by the shaytaan/satin..So the brother who posted the quote you quoted, it has nothing to do with lullabies etc..
But i think what the brother did mean is for that music where people get addicted to, which motivates them, pumps them up etc.. takes one away from the remembrance of his creator..

The stuff cited by Bukhaari? which stuff? please elaborate..sorry i didnt understand.

I apologise that you found the question strange, actually as a muslim one would be adviced to humble themselves, listening and reciting the Qur'aan encourages and softens the heart, im not sure you would understand but no worries.. It is encouraged to learn the language of the Qur'aan, but even those who do not understand still find peace within it, and so yes it does matter, when we recite certain words in our daily prayers, it is encourages to understand what we are saying. Same would be adviced for those who study the bible, the original language wasnt english, how many actually understand it? do you not praise your lord in the original language of Jesus (pbuh) ?

And so nope, shaytaan isnt running in your blood, however, i think without taking another quote from another thread and quoting it here, i advice you to ask the individual themselves, they will explain it further..

.. peace ..
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Impey
05-27-2011, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм

Did Jesus (pbuh) use use/listen or create music? praise god with music, like many do in some churches?

Also God gave some women beauty, do you think they should go show their beauty to the world? No she would respect herself and obey God to cover herself, and for her husband and those whom she is allowed i.e.father, brother, son etc etc...

Is not the word of God not enough to be used to guide people, to devote themselves to his commandments? to implement the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)?

Yes there are many gifts God blesses us with no doubt..
Thanks for that interesting question and I did a search and the only recorded case of Jesus and Music I found was that he and his disciples sang a hymn on their way to the mount of Olives.

Well I cannot say if the Word of God is 'enough' as such though I am not quite sure what you mean for no scriptures tell you how to build bridges, or water treatment works or design a drug or any number of things - so on second thoughts the word of God is not enough. Or perhaps you mean as a sort of moral guide? Yes, I think you are right that if there is a God he gives gifts but would they not be for use in his service, not just for ourselves?
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Impey
05-27-2011, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Greetings of peace. The stuff cited by Bukhaari? which stuff? please elaborate..sorry i didnt understand.
Well I had a look around the web and there is plenty of Islamic stuff on Music and lots of elaborate (to me that is) but it all seemed to be people making up reasons (which I suppose anyone can do) but you talk about these Hadeeth as being important so surely there must be reasons in there? Also I found a site called searchtruth dot com (sorry to put it like that but apparently to posy a link you have to have 50 post) and the word music does not seem to be in the Qu'ran though I assume there is perfectly good Arabic word for it (was there 14 centuries ago?)

To answer your last two points if I were to praise anybody is the religious area it would always be in my own language, I can't really conceive of doing it any other way and still feel I am deeply involved. Finally, on the 'satan in the blood' link you gave me I did try to ask the person who said it what it meant but because I am new I don't seem to have all the necessary rights or whatever so it would not let me do it - that is why I asked you (sorry I did not make that clear).
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Flame of Hope
05-27-2011, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
I have read a hadeeth regarding the permissability of playing the drum known as the duff, but not the flute, do you have references regarding this insha'Allaah

Also as far as i am aware silk is forbidden for men only and not women..could you enlighten me on this insha'Allaah
Sis, let's not see things in black and white. The words you quoted are not mine but Yusuf Islam's. Sister Just a Girl wants to become a singer..... so I thought Yusuf Islam's story and how he reacted to music, singing, musical instruments might interest her.

What Yusuf Islam says about music, singing, use of drums, flute etc. is based upon his study of Islam regarding the subject...... and he studied Islam deeply for many years. I think he probably knows more about the subject than us who are not into singing and making it our career. I'm sure there must be some hadiths regarding the permissibility of the flute.....otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it.

As for silk, I believe there might be certain situations and circumstance when it might be allowed for men. I'm not particularly interested in finding out what those situations are.... obviously Yusuf Islam had interest in the subject and he seems to know something we don't.

Lastly, one must remember that we are all creatures with necessities. For each individual there may be different needs. Situations, circumstances differ from person to person. A rule that is easy to follow for one person may not be easy to follow for another. Furthermore, actions are judged by intentions. The rules and laws of Islam are there as guidelines..... and following them depends a lot on your capability to abide by them. Some people are granted the capability........ some are not.

Each person thus has to make his own decision an which would be the best course to follow for himself/herself.

I personally don't consider music to be haraam. Movies, documentaries and advertisements would be extremely ineffective and dull without music. There are advantages to music that cannot be denied..... it uplifts the spirit, cheers you up and makes watching movies enjoyable. Think about the movie "The Message"......which is about ISLAM...... undoubtedly the makers of the movie could not do without adding in the background music.
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جوري
05-27-2011, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I did not think what I said was negative as such - but are you saying that one cannot be negative about anything in Islam?

you can of course, this is the wrong board for it.. plenty of cesspools out there where you can purge your soul of hatred to satisfaction and be applauded for it. This forum isn't for that purpose though.. so perhaps you can join a group that is more suited for your interests?


best,
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al yunan
05-27-2011, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I this a rule of the Board, if so I was not aware of it? - I just took it as a reply to my post and I replied back, there seemed no hint that ONLY a Muslim could reply. I did not think what I said was negative as such - but are you saying that one cannot be negative about anything in Islam?

Firstly as far as I'm aware there is no such rule. My quote was literal for it's a complicated matter.
Secondly all members usually reply to every thing should they have something to add or comment but in this instance your reply seemed condecending thus my reaction.
Thirdly about negative sayings concerning Islam, I'm not aware of what the limits of the Board are but as for individual Muslims members I can only speak for my self; I don't take kindly to unjust,unflatering,overcritical,slanderous and unfounded statements against Islam.
I have also been following your posts.

Masalam
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-27-2011, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Thanks for that interesting question and I did a search and the only recorded case of Jesus and Music I found was that he and his disciples sang a hymn on their way to the mount of Olives.

Well I cannot say if the Word of God is 'enough' as such though I am not quite sure what you mean for no scriptures tell you how to build bridges, or water treatment works or design a drug or any number of things - so on second thoughts the word of God is not enough. Or perhaps you mean as a sort of moral guide? Yes, I think you are right that if there is a God he gives gifts but would they not be for use in his service, not just for ourselves?
Your are most welcome.

Well, God is the creator of you and myself and everyone in this whole wide world, he is the one who taught us everything, so i would say his message is enough, do you not believe that believing in him and his commandments and then obeying them will lead to success?

Yes, ofcourse one would use it for his service.. For example an individual may be gifted with kindness and so will use it to be kind to be people, another is given money, do you think he should use it all among himself? What about those who are poor and need desperate help? in other words he wouldnt use it for himself, he would use for the sake of mankind, which is for the pleasure of the creator.

Is there anything that music has benefited one for the sake of his creator? by music i dont mean singing...i dont mean hip hop n r n b and what not:\ i mean does the creator not know what it is better for his creation? or do we know better?

And yes i am not denying that people have beautiful voice as a gift..even a women is not permitted to recite the Qur'aan infront of a man she is not related to in any way meaning a strange man to her.. etc..
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-27-2011, 08:07 PM
Editt.............................
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Just_A_Girl13
05-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Peace be with you brothers and sisters,

I didn't create this board for debating, negative comments or anything of the sort, so I am sorry if anything that has been said has upset you. Thank you for all your help-- I was not aware that this is such a difficult issue and I am very grateful to you all for enlightening me. I will take your words of advice into account when I consider this issue and make a decision for myself. As far as I am able to tell, there is no definite way to make a black-and-white distinction between different types of music, different situations in which music is played, etc.

I have concluded that it would most likely be permissible to play my violin in front of only women and mahram men. I have also decided that I will continue my singing education, but I will devote my music to praising Allah instead of my own pleasure. I will also refrain from singing music with lyrics referencing things that would displease Allah, i.e. things that are haraam. Finally, I have decided to make a sincere effort to learn how to recite the Quran so that I may use my gift to please Allah and guide others towards Him, inshallah.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-27-2011, 08:23 PM
Peace be unto you also^ I sincerely apologise if my posts seems like i am causing disruption to the thread..

You are in my prayers.
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Uthman
05-27-2011, 08:36 PM
Research paper on this (perhaps a bit academic, but useful nonetheless for anyone who wishes to gain an understanding of the issue on a more scholarly level.):

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.c...r.aspx?aid=246
http://islamicstudies.islammessage.c...r.aspx?aid=260
http://islamicstudies.islammessage.c...r.aspx?aid=267
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Just_A_Girl13
05-27-2011, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
I sincerely apologise if my posts seems like i am causing disruption to the thread..
Not at all, I was just making a general statement so that none of the other brothers and sisters would be offended by anything that was said. :)
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al yunan
05-27-2011, 08:55 PM
Salam sister,

Maybe you should take a look at this thread under General The Prohibition of Music(Book) Download!

Masalam
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SAKER
05-27-2011, 09:02 PM
Islam has no problems with music in general ....

Anachids arn ´t Haram

Supplications Ibtihalats as well

Things could be Haram for their negative results exemple sexual ,dirty ,songs.. You know

dirty topics is what make things haram and not music it self ...I mean how use music ..

Sami youssef songs are very good actions make people know Islam rather than many long speech
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SAKER
05-27-2011, 09:09 PM
Another thing a long musical party for example will be Harem if its will prevent you doing obligations :pray -for example - will be immediately Haram
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al yunan
05-27-2011, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAKER
Islam has no problems with music in general ....

It would help if you could produce some evidence !
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SAKER
05-27-2011, 09:35 PM
الاصل في الأمورالإباحة 1-1
Things are generally halal that ´s a Fiqh rule
2-
oUR PROPHeTE was walking and heard women singing with doufouf ,he- s.a.-then asked what ´s was it about ,told it ´s a wedding party or celebrities then our prophet said nothing.
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SAKER
05-27-2011, 09:38 PM
We can speak here about innocent legally entertainment
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Impey
05-31-2011, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
Research paper on this (perhaps a bit academic, but useful nonetheless for anyone who wishes to gain an understanding of the issue on a more scholarly level.):
I have read through these three papers, all 10,176 words and they are unlike any academic/technical papers I have ever seen. I have no knowledge of who the people quoted are though I understand Muslims are sensitive about your scholars. Can I be permitted to ask some questions?

What I mean is that I find it almost impossible to understand why anyone would cite an example, as is done here, of a man and your prophet putting their fingers in their ears on hearing a flute and taking that as a proof or even part of a proof that Music is forbidden?
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Uthman
05-31-2011, 08:22 PM
Ask away, brother/sister! I will try and answer insofar as my knowledge allows me to.

With regards to your last question, I'd expect that the fact that they did this action is an indication that listening to the flute is an undesirable act at least, and forbidden at most? This must be understood in conjunction with other evidences too. That isn't the primary proof usually given to indicate that instruments are haraam, but rather the primary reference is usually the famous hadeeth in the Saheeh of Imaam al-Bukhari.
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Impey
05-31-2011, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Well, God is the creator of you and myself and everyone in this whole wide world, he is the one who taught us everything, so i would say his message is enough, do you not believe that believing in him and his commandments and then obeying them will lead to success?
Thank you for your kind answer. But here I am intrigued to read that the object of Islam is 'success'? I have not seen that before so what does it mean: leading a good life, doing good, making money, becoming a concert pianist .... the idea of success seems so subjective?

Yes, ofcourse one would use it for his service.. For example an individual may be gifted with kindness and so will use it to be kind to be people, another is given money, do you think he should use it all among himself? What about those who are poor and need desperate help? in other words he wouldnt use it for himself, he would use for the sake of mankind, which is for the pleasure of the creator.
I would not think of kindness as a gift - I would have thought it was part or should be part of the character of every believer?

Is there anything that music has benefited one for the sake of his creator? by music i dont mean singing...i dont mean hip hop n r n b and what not:\ i mean does the creator not know what it is better for his creation? or do we know better?
Well off the top of my head Music creates millions of jobs world wide and it general it is a good thing, and I thought one never forbade what is good? I have listened to Music (classical that is) all my life and sometimes its for pure enjoyment, sometimes its is out of need to sooth the spirit. I am not saying ALL music is good but there are lots of studies that shows its human benefits - I recall one that showed that babies in the Womb put on weight when some of Mozart is played (if you are interested I can probably look up the rer). I could not live without it.
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جوري
05-31-2011, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Thank you for your kind answer. But here I am intrigued to read that the object of Islam is 'success'? I have not seen that before so what does it mean: leading a good life, doing good, making money, becoming a concert pianist .... the idea of success seems so subjective?
success is not subjective in life or the afterlife.. of course on assumes that when it comes to religion we're dealing with the latter:


as the sura suggests .. successful are the believers who fulfill at least the first ten verses:


I would not think of kindness as a gift - I would have thought it was part or should be part of the character of every believer?
character trait that is a gift indeed!

Well off the top of my head Music creates millions of jobs world wide and it general it is a good thing, and I thought one never forbade what is good? I have listened to Music (classical that is) all my life and sometimes its for pure enjoyment, sometimes its is out of need to sooth the spirit. I am not saying ALL music is good but there are lots of studies that shows its human benefits - I recall one that showed that babies in the Womb put on weight when some of Mozart is played (if you are interested I can probably look up the rer). I could not live without it.
Your subjective opinion here is yours to keep..

best,
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-31-2011, 09:23 PM
Greeting of peace


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Thank you for your kind answer. But here I am intrigued to read that the object of Islam is 'success'? I have not seen that before so what does it mean: leading a good life, doing good, making money, becoming a concert pianist .... the idea of success seems so subjective?
No problem. Ofcourse, if you look at any religion/belief out there, you will find there are certain things they should remain away from and some they should do. In Islaam that sucess lies in the pleasure of God. Submitting to him Completely and him only, and so a 'muslim' -one who submits to God, whatever is forbidden is because it is not good for us and whatever is permissable is good for us and not only this life but the hereafter. There may be things one may really like but in reality it is bad for us and what we dont like in reality it is good for us.

It means that whatever path a muslim wishes to take, one takes it with good intentions and is encouraged to gain knowledge, for example a muslim will not follow a career in which alcohol is sold this is because there is no benefit for him in earning money from something that is Haraam itself already and also it is something which is dangerous for others..


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I would not think of kindness as a gift - I would have thought it was part or should be part of the character of every believer?
Yes, as believers/muslims we are encouraged to be kind, but what i meant by post is sometimes there are those who have it naturally, it is a gift because there are those who find it difficult to be kind also..

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Well off the top of my head Music creates millions of jobs world wide and it general it is a good thing, and I thought one never forbade what is good? I have listened to Music (classical that is) all my life and sometimes its for pure enjoyment, sometimes its is out of need to sooth the spirit. I am not saying ALL music is good but there are lots of studies that shows its human benefits - I recall one that showed that babies in the Womb put on weight when some of Mozart is played (if you are interested I can probably look up the rer). I could not live without it.
You can post the references if you like.

However, the Qur'aan is considered the word of God for the muslims, one is adviced when reciting verses/chapters from the book to recite in the best way they are able to and there is reward for those who try even knowing their voice may not be perfect. And so one forms closeness with God, though music may sound great, realistically there is no reward, and no i am not implying one should recite the Qur'aan only to gain reward from their creator, whether that is the case or not only Allaah is aware of all intentions, it is vital that this act brings us close to God. Also the Qur'aan is known for soothing hearts. The fact is one cannot love music and Qur'aan at the same time, and one must also do that which doesnt take him away from the remembrance of the creator..

Also there are many things that we may like that seem good for us yet they are not, an example is playing games, too much of it makes us lazy and in the case of a muslim may take one away from the remembrance of his lord i.e. becoming lazy in their prayer. too much listening to music, will make us fall in love with the music and take the beauty and love away from listening or even reading the Qur'aan..

I hope i havent confused you and that i have made sense..

.. peace ..
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Tyrion
05-31-2011, 10:01 PM
:sl:
I don't want to get into any sort of argument, but there are a few things I really want to point out here...

format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Also the Qur'aan is known for soothing hearts. The fact is one cannot love music and Qur'aan at the same time, and one must also do that which doesnt take him away from the remembrance of the creator..
Uhmm... A fact? This just isn't true. I can attest to that. Music and the Quran are in completely different spheres, and they aren't exactly comparable. i think theres a problem when people lump the Quran and music together, claiming you can't have one without the other... Also, there is such a thing as music that can soothe you and help you appreciate/remember God...

Also there are many things that we may like that seem good for us yet they are not, an example is playing games, too much of it makes us lazy and in the case of a muslim may take one away from the remembrance of his lord i.e. becoming lazy in their prayer. too much listening to music, will make us fall in love with the music and take the beauty and love away from listening or even reading the Qur'aan..
No disagreements there, but the key words in your statement here were "too much". I don't think anyone would disagree that too much of anything is bad, but that isn't enough to make something wrong.
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جوري
05-31-2011, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Uhmm... A fact?

The saying goes the heart of the believer can't combine between love of the Quran and love of Music..
I used to play the piano for years and years, and listened to classical.. When I decided to memorize the Quran, and would have recitations all the time so I can engrave it in my memory I have found that everything else seemed like noise. Slowly I lost interest in music and discovered a new love.. I suspect that is where that comes from, not being able to combine two loves..
the only way to confirm it is to try it..

:w:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-31-2011, 10:55 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Uhmm... A fact? This just isn't true. I can attest to that. Music and the Quran are in completely different spheres, and they aren't exactly comparable. i think theres a problem when people lump the Quran and music together, claiming you can't have one without the other... Also, there is such a thing as music that can soothe you and help you appreciate/remember God...
Yes, a fact. Firstly i am speaking from experience and also many have comfirmed this. Yes true you cannot compare music with Qur'aan. my question to you is have you yourself tried this?

As far as i am aware when the love of the Qur'aan is there, one will not want to listen to music unless out of necessity, like at supermarket, educational documentaries etc etc.
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Tyrion
05-31-2011, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Yes, a fact. Firstly i am speaking from experience and also many have comfirmed this. Yes true you cannot compare music with Qur'aan. my question to you is have you yourself tried this?
I can speak from experience and tell you that you can love the Quran, and also enjoy some music on the side... Why is that so hard to imagine? And what exactly are you asking that I've tried? Listening to the Quran and music?

As far as i am aware when the love of the Qur'aan is there, one will not want to listen to music unless out of necessity, like at supermarket, educational documentaries etc etc.
Just because it may be true for you does not make it true for everybody. There are tons of people out there who have memorized the Quran, some of them even going far into Islamic studies, who see no problem with listening to music. An appreciation for music has nothing to do with a love of the Quran. Perhaps for you it does, but I don't think that's true for a lot of people.


format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
The saying goes the heart of the believer can't combine between love of the Quran and love of Music..
I used to play the piano for years and years, and listened to classical.. When I decided to memorize the Quran, and would have recitations all the time so I can engrave it in my memory I have found that everything else seemed like noise. Slowly I lost interest in music and discovered a new love.. I suspect that is where that comes from, not being able to combine two loves..
the only way to confirm it is to try it..
I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...
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Asiyah3
05-31-2011, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

I can speak from experience and tell you that you can love the Quran, and also enjoy some music on the side... Why is that so hard to imagine? And what exactly are you asking that I've tried? Listening to the Quran and music?



Just because it may be true for you does not make it true for everybody. There are tons of people out there who have memorized the Quran, some of them even going far into Islamic studies, who see no problem with listening to music. An appreciation for music has nothing to do with a love of the Quran. Perhaps for you it does, but I don't think that's true for a lot of people.




I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...
:sl:

As long as the music doesn't contain haraam things.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-31-2011, 11:50 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

I can speak from experience and tell you that you can love the Quran, and also enjoy some music on the side... Why is that so hard to imagine? And what exactly are you asking that I've tried? Listening to the Quran and music?
Brother, my post isnt suggesting whether one can listen to the Qur'aan and Music at the same time, rather when you listen to the Qur'aan, a certain love for the Qur'aan which you cannot have for music, where you wouldnt want to listen to it. my Question to you was have you listened to Qur'aan non-stop without listening to music? Can you listen to music for a whole week going without music? And by music i hope you understand what i am referring to, which that contains musical instruments and words which have no benefit..

The important thing is if it takes us away from the remebrance of Allaah then itself is classed as forbidden for us.



format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...
Bro, some consider music to be a tool of shaytan, now imagine where people would be listening to the Qur'aan here and there, do you think thats right? Qur'aan i.e word of Allaah..music-created by man, now which one do you expect a muslim to choose? which one do you think is better?

Yes true too much something can be bad, not for everything such as those who will say drinking is okay, too much of it is bad..when is Alcohol ever good for you? Yes there was a time where muslims would drunk, later it was forbidden, it is mentioned somewhere there are some goods in alcohol, but it has more bad than good, so because it has more bad makes it forbidden as a whole..

I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah



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Asiyah3
06-01-2011, 12:00 AM
***edit*****
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Tyrion
06-01-2011, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Assalaamu Alaaykum



Brother, my post isnt suggesting whether one can listen to the Qur'aan and Music at the same time, rather when you listen to the Qur'aan, a certain love for the Qur'aan which you cannot have for music, where you wouldnt want to listen to it.
Indeed, the love for the Quran cannot be shared with music. Nobody denies this. The problem is when people lump music and the Quran together. Like I said, music is it's own separate thing. When I listen to music, I'm not doing it to replace the Quran... Music is something else completely, and I listen to it for completely different reasons. I don't know why this part is hard to grasp...

my Question to you was have you listened to Qur'aan non-stop without listening to music? Can you listen to music for a whole week going without music?
Of course I've listened to the Quran without listening to music... What kind of question is that? And of course I can stop listening to music for a whole week... Why do you seem to think anyone who listens to music suddenly becomes addicted to it, and is unable to appreciate the Quran? I've actually given up listening to music before, so it is indeed possible. :p

And by music i hope you understand what i am referring to, which that contains musical instruments and words which have no benefit..
Yup, I know we're talking about music with instruments. :p And I can also agree that music has no spiritual benefit (as in, it's not something that is "earning you points" with God) But like I've said before, that doesn't make it wrong... If I told you about how much I adored chocolate cake, and how I liked eating it... Those words and that moment would have no real benefit... But that wouldn't make saying it wrong either... (I know that was an awful example, but I hope you get what I mean. :p)


Bro, some consider music to be a tool of shaytan,
Indeed, and many people don't consider it to be a tool of Shaitaan. As for those who do, I respectfully disagree with them..

now imagine where people would be listening to the Qur'aan here and there, do you think thats right? Qur'aan i.e word of Allaah..music-created by man, now which one do you expect a muslim to choose? which one do you think is better?
My point was that there is no need to choose... Quran is one thing, and music is another.

Yes true too much something can be bad, not for everything such as those who will say drinking is okay, too much of it is bad..when is Alcohol ever good for you? Yes there was a time where muslims would drunk, later it was forbidden, it is mentioned somewhere there are some goods in alcohol, but it has more bad than good, so because it has more bad makes it forbidden as a whole..
The issue of alcohol and the issue of music are completely different, and I hope I'm not the only one who can see that...

I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah

**videos**
I have seen that video before, but before I say anything I must admit... I'm not a huge fan of Yusuf Estes... (not because of this video, but just.. in general. He's a good guy, and he helps a lot of people... Just not my type, and I don't agree with everything he says) But still, just based on what he says here, I personally don't find his arguments particularly convincing... I understand that you do however, but its important to realize that this isn't a clear cut issue, no matter how much people want to try and make it seem like there is one definitive answer...
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جوري
06-01-2011, 12:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...

I am not sure who imam suhaib is and in no position to comment on anyone's piety one way or the other.. I am merely speaking of losing a love for one thing after having found a far richer, more fulfilling one-- literally music to me now is noise.. the only way I can describe it, as a hypothetical say all your life you were conditioned to think that the best caviar is sevruga from Russia, and the Russian caviar is elitist and most refined and most expensive no supermarket caviar is this, only to discover that Almas from the Beluga Sturgeon (the Iranian sort) that comes from the Caspian sea isn't only the rarest gem of all hence its name 'almas' diamond but the most expensive and most sought after though might not be known to all, and you try it and love it. Could you ever go back to cheap briny caviar after having had the most elegant and exquisite of them all?

:w:
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Tyrion
06-01-2011, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I am not sure who imam suhaib is and in no position to comment on anyone's piety one way or the other.. I am merely speaking of losing a love for one thing after having found a far richer, more fulfilling one-- literally music to me now is noise.. the only way I can describe it, as a hypothetical say all your life you were conditioned to think that the best caviar is sevruga from Russia, and the Russian caviar is elitist and most refined and most expensive no supermarket caviar is this, only to discover that Almas from the Beluga Sturgeon (the Iranian sort) that comes from the Caspian sea isn't only the rarest gem of all hence its name 'almas' diamond but the most expensive and most sought after though might not be known to all, and you try it and love it. Could you ever go back to cheap briny caviar after having had the most elegant and exquisite of them all?
Oh, I assumed you might have heard of him since he's become more popular in the West... It wasn't important though, just an example. Anyway, I see what you're saying, but I still have a slight problem with it and I hope you can see why... The expensive caviar vs. cheap caviar example might work, but only if you consider Quran and Music to be part of the same category. Even then, I can understand how this can be the case for many, but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? :p But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.
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Flame of Hope
06-01-2011, 01:37 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
My point was that there is no need to choose... Quran is one thing, and music is another.
Very very good point. lol. I think this says it all. :p
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جوري
06-01-2011, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Oh, I assumed you might have heard of him since he's become more popular in the West... It wasn't important though, just an example. Anyway, I see what you're saying, but I still have a slight problem with it and I hope you can see why... The expensive caviar vs. cheap caviar example might work, but only if you consider Quran and Music to be part of the same category. Even then, I can understand how this can be the case for many, but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.

I don't put Music and the Quran in the same category but there are a few aspects of fulfillment that apply to both and where one for me oneups by a landslide.. melody, emotion, lyricism, style of recitation.. of course I don't comment on the other aspects of the Quran that are only applicable to the Quran.. and I haven't commented on whether I think music is good or bad, the first I learned of it was on this forum.. and so now since I have doubts I prefer to stick with the wisdom from this hadith:


On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah an-Nu'man the son of Bashir (may Allah be pleased with them both), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say:
That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart.
It was related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.


:w:
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Tyrion
06-01-2011, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't put Music and the Quran in the same category but there are a few aspects of fulfillment that apply to both and where one for me oneups by a landslide.. melody, emotion, lyricism, style of recitation.. of course I don't comment on the other aspects of the Quran that are only applicable to the Quran.. and I haven't commented on whether I think music is good or bad, the first I learned of it was on this forum.. and so now since I have doubts I prefer to stick with the wisdom from this hadith:


On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah an-Nu'man the son of Bashir (may Allah be pleased with them both), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say:
That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart.
It was related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.
I pretty much agree with you here. I too first learned of any issues with music on this forum.. And that Hadith is very beautiful.. Anyone who gives up something they are unsure of to please Allah is doing something very admirable...

The idea comes with a bit of freedom though, so that the person can research and decide what to do on their own. It's that that I was pushing for.. My only problem is people who tend to get upset when you try to express an opinion that they don't agree with... (I've had to deal with that a few times on this forum..) Having said that, I'm quite happy with how this discussion went. :p
Reply

جوري
06-01-2011, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

I pretty much agree with you here. I too first learned of any issues with music on this forum.. And that Hadith is very beautiful.. Anyone who gives up something they are unsure of to please Allah is doing something very admirable...

The idea comes with a bit of freedom though, so that the person can research and decide what to do on their own. It's that that I was pushing for.. My only problem is people who tend to get upset when you try to express an opinion that they don't agree with... (I've had to deal with that a few times on this forum..) Having said that, I'm quite happy with how this discussion went. :p
Middle easterners to generalize are hot bloodied creatures and if we add an impassioned topic to the mix tempers are bound to flare..
I haven't found that problem in Malaysians though :haha:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-01-2011, 12:15 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Indeed, the love for the Quran cannot be shared with music. Nobody denies this. The problem is when people lump music and the Quran together. Like I said, music is it's own separate thing. When I listen to music, I'm not doing it to replace the Quran... Music is something else completely, and I listen to it for completely different reasons. I don't know why this part is hard to grasp...
The part is hard to grasp because i dont know how one still have love for music at the same as having love for the Qur'aan, yes i am not denying either that music and Qur'aan are totally different to each other, but they are something one listens to for enjoyment, what I am saying in essense it is better for a muslim to listen to the word of God-the Qur'aan instead of music, like one would say it is better to listening to the Qur'aan is better than listening to some nasheed not that all nasheed are considered haraam. Also i am not saying we are angels and we wont listen to music and what not, I think it doesnt suit the one who would listen to music after being the memorizer of the whole Qur'aan. To me it doesnt fit together. And i am speaking in general not saying we should go judge people. So for those who wish to continue to listening to music can do so by their own free will, nor am i going to judge or mock them, but i would like to point out if one sees someone do wrong i have to inform them. For example many teens who are listening to hip hop and making those singers their idols, if you ask them to listen to Qur'aan they will ask for it to be switched off, it becomes difficult for the younger generation to then accept that they should not listen to this because they dont see anything wrong with it, and the love of the Qur'aan is taken away. This is what i mean by not being able to love both at the same time, i sincerely apologise if it seems if i look like im labelling those who do listen to music as wrong.

Also regarding the matters of deen i do not like arguments, if it seems like i am creating one, i apologise. by my posts I only want one to see the good and not hate the other just because you do not agree with them, but so that we can get along as members in peace especially as members of the ummah insha'Allaah


format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Of course I've listened to the Quran without listening to music... What kind of question is that? And of course I can stop listening to music for a whole week... Why do you seem to think anyone who listens to music suddenly becomes addicted to it, and is unable to appreciate the Quran? I've actually given up listening to music before, so it is indeed possible. :p
My Question was have you tried doing that, not whether you can. I have not said when one listens to music and cannot appreciate the Qur'aan, even i can do that but i cannot appreciate both but one, listen to both at the same time but there is only one that i love more, depending on which i have formed more closeness too, if that makes sense :-\

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Yup, I know we're talking about music with instruments. :p And I can also agree that music has no spiritual benefit (as in, it's not something that is "earning you points" with God) But like I've said before, that doesn't make it wrong... If I told you about how much I adored chocolate cake, and how I liked eating it... Those words and that moment would have no real benefit... But that wouldn't make saying it wrong either... (I know that was an awful example, but I hope you get what I mean. :p)
So we agree, and finally you understand and agree what i am referring to when i mentioned 'music', but the fact that you accept it doesnt gain no reward with your lord and no spiritual benefit, yet you still seem to deny it being wrong, that may just your opinion. What i did say is, if it does take you away from the remembrance from God then its wrong, and i am sure you may agree, nor am i saying one who listens to music alltogether is wrong.



format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
point was that there is no need to choose... Quran is one thing, and music is another.
Nor have I denied that, that was beyond the point, but you cannot have the same amount of love for both, you can either say you love the Qur'aan more or music, that is what i am trying to say whether you agree or disagree with that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
The issue of alcohol and the issue of music are completely different, and I hope I'm not the only one who can see that...
I was trying to give an example, i apologise if it seemed unnacceptable. I was trying to point out Alcohol is never good and also since it has more bad in it it should be avoided as much as possible even though there is some good within it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I have seen that video before, but before I say anything I must admit... I'm not a huge fan of Yusuf Estes... (not because of this video, but just.. in general. He's a good guy, and he helps a lot of people... Just not my type, and I don't agree with everything he says) But still, just based on what he says here, I personally don't find his arguments particularly convincing... I understand that you do however, but its important to realize that this isn't a clear cut issue, no matter how much people want to try and make it seem like there is one definitive answer...
I apologise for not posting a speaker of your liking, i agree it isnt a clear cut issue.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? :p But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.
Nobody labelled anyone as 'wrong' even i wouldnt do that, I myself was posting reasons to why music should be avoided if it causess harm to one's emaan. There are also conditions which i am sure you are aware of such as having instruments, words of no benefit, do you think if these things are forbidden , knowingly one still continue to listen to them?

I apologise if my post seem harsh or dont make sense and apologies for the loong post :-\..
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Impey
06-01-2011, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
success is not subjective in life or the afterlife.. of course on assumes that when it comes to religion we're dealing with the latter: as the sura suggests .. successful are the believers who fulfill at least the first ten verses:
I listened and read from the 10 verses you posted: submissive, idle talk, giving, chastity, keep promises, pray. Seems a very short list and I contrast it with what I learned in Sunday school (admittedly years ago): love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. meekness and self-control and these are things we all have and can be nurtured, surely God would not dole these out but what us to have them all. But I have two questions:

From this list you gave it looks as if Islam is all about guidance and you follow the guidance? Secondly, what on earth does '...what their right hand possess' mean in V6?

Your subjective opinion here is yours to keep..
This sounds to me rather harsh - have I broken a board rule? That subjective opinions are not allowed?
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Tyrion
06-01-2011, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Assalaamu Alaaykum

The part is hard to grasp because i dont know how one still have love for music at the same as having love for the Qur'aan, yes i am not denying either that music and Qur'aan are totally different to each other, but they are something one listens to for enjoyment, what I am saying in essense it is better for a muslim to listen to the word of the Qur'aan instead of music, like one would say it is better to listening to the Qur'aan is better than listening to some nasheed not that nasheed are considered haraam.
If you acknowledge that they aren't in the same category, then I don't see why you would still have a hard time with this... I listen to lectures sometimes for enjoyment too, but that doesn't mean anything. I read books for enjoyment, and for some kind of emotional fulfillment... But I'm sure you wouldn't say reading a novel was frowned upon... And nobody denies that it is better for someone to be reading the Quran, but again, none of this can mean that there is anything iffy or wrong with music... For example, I'll listen to music as I work out in the gym. I don't really pay attention to it, but it helps me focus and pass the time. Should I do that with Quran instead? Probably not. In fact, if I played the Quran in the background and didn't pay attention to it, I'd be doing a disservice to the word of God... But that's precisely what music is for at times... So it doesn't make sense to try and say one is better than the other, so it should be loved/listened to instead... I hope all that made sense..

Also i am not saying we are angels and we wont listen to music and what not, I think it doesnt suit the one who would listen to music after being the memorizer of the whole Qur'aan. To me it doesnt fit together.
This is your opinion though... I happen to know a few people who have memorized the Quran, and they're fairly piou. One is even an Imam... But they all listen to music sometimes for fun. I don't think they would agree with you that it's not fitting to listen to music once one has memorized the Quran. :p I think those things aren't really related.. You may disagree with me/them, but that's all it is... A disagreement. One that really just deals with opinions.

And i am speaking in general not saying we should go judge people. So for those who wish to continue to listening to music can do so by their own free will, nor am i going to judge or mock them,
Agreed.

but i would like to point out if one sees someone do wrong i have to inform them. For example many teens who are listening to hip hop and making those singers their idols, if you ask them to listen to music they will ask for it to be switched off, it becomes difficult for the younger generation to then accept that they should not listen to this because they dont see anything wrong with it, and the love of the Qur'aan is taken away. This is what i mean by not being able to love both at the same time, i sincerely apologise if it seems if i look like im labelling those who do listen to music as wrong.
You do understand that not everyone see's this as wrong like you do, right? So you probably don't have to inform them. :p And don't generalize all hip hop... Trust me, it's not all bad (and I'm not even that huge of a hip hop fan. :p) You're just talking about extremes now, and I think most people (myself included) would agree with you when it comes to those extremes. We can all agree that filthy or vulgar language is bad. Suggestive lyrics are bad. But that simply doesn't apply to all music... What you have to realize is that reality isn't just made up of those extremes. Life isn't just black and white... If youth are listening to hip hop, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. If a person isn't interested in the Quran, it isn't necessarily due to the fact that he listens to music.

Also regarding the matters of deen i do not like arguments, if it seems like i am creating one, i apologise. by my posts I only want one to see the good and not hate the other just because you do not agree with them, but so that we can get along as members in peace especially as members of the ummah insha'Allaah
I agree, but I don't think this is turning into an argument... In fact, this is one of the most respectful discussions I've had on this board covering the topic of music. :p

I have not said when one listens to music and cannot appreciate the Qur'aan, even i can do that, listen to both at the same time but there is only one that i love more, depending to which i have formed more closeness too, if that makes sense :-\
Like I said, of course one loves the Quran more. That's not an issue. But that doesn't mean one can't appreciate and listen to music either. I can love my family and love the Quran too, at the same time. Music is in a different category, and it's generally listened to for different reasons.

So we agree, and finally you understand and agree what i am referring to when i mentioned 'music', but the fact that you accept it doesnt gain no reward with your lord and no spiritual benefit,
A lot of things don't. That doesn't mean they're wrong or forbidden.

yet you still seem to deny it being wrong, that may just your opinion. What i did say is, if it does take you away from the remembrance from God then its wrong, and i am sure you may agree, nor am i saying one who listens to music alltogether is wrong.
It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others. Nobody disagrees with the idea that if anything (not just music) takes you away from spiritual growth, then it should be avoided. In that case though, it's up for the individual to decide.

Nor have I denied that, that was beyong the point, but you cannot have the same amount of love for both, you can either say you love the Qur'aan more or music, that is what i am trying to say whether you agree or disagree with that.
Nobody is saying you should love music more than the Quran. But once again, they're not exactly in the same category, so you don't exactly have to choose one and then completely abandon the other...

I was trying to give an example, i apologies if it seemed unnacceptable. I was trying to point out Alcohol is never good and also since it has more bad in it it should be avoided as much as possible even though there is some good within it.
But like I said, music and alcohol are incredibly different in their effects, and I don't think it's really a valid comparison... There's even quite a difference in their prohibition from what I understand, with alcohol being under an explicit ban from Allah in the Quran (much like swine, but with a more concrete reason), while music is definitely not clear.

I apologise for not posting a speaker of your liking, i agree it isnt a clear cut issue.
Oh, don't apologize. I just wanted to let you know that while he's not a favorite of mine, I tried to take his arguments without any bias. :p

Nobody labelled anyone as 'wrong' even i wouldnt do that, I myself was posting reasons to why music should be avoided if it causess harm to one's emaan. There are also conditions which i am sure you are aware of such as having instruments, words of no benefit, do you think if these things are forbidden , knowingly one still continue to listen to them?
I think you've at least hinted that you think music is wrong, but I agree, you haven't labeled anyone as wrong. I think I've given you reasons as to why I don't agree with you on your reasons regarding why music should be avoided... Most of what you've said is opinion, and really doesn't apply to everyone. If it lowers your Iman, then it's probably best if you don't listen to it. But it's also best not to assume that this will apply to everyone... And I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't consider instruments to be forbidden, but I'm neither qualified nor willing to get into another discussion about that. To put it simply, I can't bring myself to be convinced that they really are forbidden, and I happen to know of differing opinions on the matter... Whether or not you want to acknowledge the legitimacy of those differing opinions is your call, but the least you can do is recognize and respect those who hold them. And words of no benefit can apply to anything, but I'm sure you wouldn't apply the same logic to things other than music... They should be avoided to an extent, but they are not wrong in and of themselves. If they lead you away from the straight path, then they are an issue.

I apologise if my post seem harsh or dont make sense and apologies for the loong post :-\..
It wasn't harsh at all. :p I hope my responses made sense... I was in a bit of a rush while writing it, and I've got to head to class soon..
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Impey
06-01-2011, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
Ask away, brother/sister! I will try and answer insofar as my knowledge allows me to. With regards to your last question, I'd expect that the fact that they did this action is an indication that listening to the flute is an undesirable act at least, and forbidden at most? This must be understood in conjunction with other evidences too. That isn't the primary proof usually given to indicate that instruments are haraam, but rather the primary reference is usually the famous hadeeth in the Saheeh of Imaam al-Bukhari.
Thank you for the opportunity. May I begin with a general comment and perhaps you will respond. As I read the three papers I see what looks to me like undue reverence (I can't quite think of a better word) for many of the names quoted. Now I am not obviously saying that we should not with care read any opinion but it to me seem to go too far. Let me explain, I come from the academic world and commonly there we say that a significant, perhaps the most significant mark of a good teacher is that he/she always wants their students to exceed them, to go beyond what they have done or said - anything less is a kind of academic betrayal of the teacher. Just to be clear, this is not about forgetting what the teacher has said but going on to apply it in new way, to innovate and find new meaning or new application and new teachings.

I want to be careful what I say here but any good academic has to say to his/her students 'now find your own way' and in a kind of paradox, out of respect for the teacher they do that, they try to go beyond them. Otherwise what any academic has said becomes nothing but idolatry. Jacob Bronowski (you can find his quotes all over the web) said two pertinent ones here: "Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty" and "It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it. " Therefore, I find it impossible to ever think of locking myself into an opinion simply because someone of renown said it, that to me seems like intellectual suicide and a betrayal of a good teacher?
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-01-2011, 10:44 PM
Assalaamu Alaaykum

I respect your views and understand fully where you are coming from..but what i've seen from the posts are just opinions and nothing else..

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
If you acknowledge that they aren't in the same category, then I don't see why you would still have a hard time with this... I listen to lectures sometimes for enjoyment too, but that doesn't mean anything. I read books for enjoyment, and for some kind of emotional fulfillment... But I'm sure you wouldn't say reading a novel was frowned upon... And nobody denies that it is better for someone to be reading the Quran, but again, none of this can mean that there is anything iffy or wrong with music... For example, I'll listen to music as I work out in the gym. I don't really pay attention to it, but it helps me focus and pass the time. Should I do that with Quran instead? Probably not. In fact, if I played the Quran in the background and didn't pay attention to it, I'd be doing a disservice to the word of God... But that's precisely what music is for at times... So it doesn't make sense to try and say one is better than the other, so it should be loved/listened to instead... I hope all that made sense..
There are many things made for enjoyment, does that mean we should use them all? by making one better than the other it should make sense since one is the word of creator and the other is not..

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
This is your opinion though... I happen to know a few people who have memorized the Quran, and they're fairly piou. One is even an Imam... But they all listen to music sometimes for fun. I don't think they would agree with you that it's not fitting to listen to music once one has memorized the Quran. I think those things aren't really related.. You may disagree with me/them, but that's all it is... A disagreement. One that really just deals with opinions.
I dont know if i missed the part out where i was suppose to say we are not perfect, there are imaams who have left Islaam. For something like this you would refer to it as the decrease of imaan and the increase of imaan, where when there are things that take your emaan level low and to improve the levels one would keep himself occupied in the dhikr of Allaah or to do an act which would take you closer to Allaah. keep in mind imaam or those who have memorised the Qur'aan are or even scholars are also human, now this isnt an opinion, but rather something we can all agree upon insha'Allaah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
You do understand that not everyone see's this as wrong like you do, right? So you probably don't have to inform them. And don't generalize all hip hop... Trust me, it's not all bad (and I'm not even that huge of a hip hop fan. ) You're just talking about extremes now, and I think most people (myself included) would agree with you when it comes to those extremes. We can all agree that filthy or vulgar language is bad. Suggestive lyrics are bad. But that simply doesn't apply to all music... What you have to realize is that reality isn't just made up of those extremes. Life isn't just black and white... If youth are listening to hip hop, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. If a person isn't interested in the Quran, it isn't necessarily due to the fact that he listens to music.
The example i gave you is of teens who cant bare the sound of Qur'aan..could you please guide me to a certain hip hop song that isnt all bad or whether there is any purpous and benefit in listening to it? Yes true it isnt always due to the fact he listens to music, but a muslim being a muslim isnt all based upon just listening to Qur'aan either.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I agree, but I don't think this is turning into an argument... In fact, this is one of the most respectful discussions I've had on this board covering the topic of music.
thank you!..

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Like I said, of course one loves the Quran more. That's not an issue. But that doesn't mean one can't appreciate and listen to music either. I can love my family and love the Quran too, at the same time. Music is in a different category, and it's generally listened to for different reasons.
The bold part is what i wanted to know, the rest is upto the individual to decide, aslong as there is evidence..Also i wanted to know you have said in many posts that there are scholars who state or agree that music isnt made forbidden, could you post up references regarding this insha'Allaah..

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others. Nobody disagrees with the idea that if anything (not just music) takes you away from spiritual growth, then it should be avoided. In that case though, it's up for the individual to decide.
Agreed, but to also become aware that his choice is agreed by Qur'aan and sunnah or else it means nothing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Nobody is saying you should love music more than the Quran. But once again, they're not exactly in the same category, so you don't exactly have to choose one and then completely abandon the other...
I respect your view but i have to disagree, the reason being i have no evidence regarding this, if there is then there should no doubt leave no reason for me to disagree

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
But like I said, music and alcohol are incredibly different in their effects, and I don't think it's really a valid comparison... There's even quite a difference in their prohibition from what I understand, with alcohol being under an explicit ban from Allah in the Quran (much like swine, but with a more concrete reason), while music is definitely not clear.
Yes i agree, but as far as I am aware there are hadeeth and also ayaah of the Qur'aan indicating the issue of music, though it isnt clear cut there are indications same for many other issues...

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Oh, don't apologize. I just wanted to let you know that while he's not a favorite of mine, I tried to take his arguments without any bias.
Just out of curiousity , what are the reasons you disagree with on this particular shaykh?

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I think you've at least hinted that you think music is wrong, but I agree, you haven't labeled anyone as wrong. I think I've given you reasons as to why I don't agree with you on your reasons regarding why music should be avoided... Most of what you've said is opinion, and really doesn't apply to everyone. If it lowers your Iman, then it's probably best if you don't listen to it. But it's also best not to assume that this will apply to everyone... And I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't consider instruments to be forbidden, but I'm neither qualified nor willing to get into another discussion about that. To put it simply, I can't bring myself to be convinced that they really are forbidden, and I happen to know of differing opinions on the matter... Whether or not you want to acknowledge the legitimacy of those differing opinions is your call, but the least you can do is recognize and respect those who hold them. And words of no benefit can apply to anything, but I'm sure you wouldn't apply the same logic to things other than music... They should be avoided to an extent, but they are not wrong in and of themselves. If they lead you away from the straight path, then they are an issue.
But i agree I have posed opinions which i believe even though they have some point to them, without pure evidence they are worthless. Bro if in my posts i have mentioned anywhere that i dont respect someone for their view, please inform me..if i have i apologise..

The understanding i have gained from this discussion is all were opinions and none was evidence, whether it be yourself or myself..what i have hated most is when people base their opinions on issues as serious as this..people can say the same about alcohol, how its enjoyable, how it hasnt caused them any harm and so its considered lawful, and many other haraam things where they consider them to be lawful and yet their opinions mean nothing in the matter of deen., dont get me wrong, i respect your view but i disagree with it as much as you disagree with mine, but also because there has not been posted any evidence in regards to Qur'aan and ahadeeth, evidence is vital..im sure you can agree with that at the most..


format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
It wasn't harsh at all. I hope my responses made sense... I was in a bit of a rush while writing it, and I've got to head to class soon..
no problem..

Jazakallaahu Khaayr for your time i appreciate it..
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'Abd-al Latif
06-01-2011, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by al yunan
Why not a Qariah ?
She said she has a good voice !
Just for a clarification, singing the Qur'an is forbidden. It's recited in a melodious tone, but not sang.
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Uthman
06-02-2011, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Thank you for the opportunity. May I begin with a general comment and perhaps you will respond. As I read the three papers I see what looks to me like undue reverence (I can't quite think of a better word) for many of the names quoted. Now I am not obviously saying that we should not with care read any opinion but it to me seem to go too far. Let me explain, I come from the academic world and commonly there we say that a significant, perhaps the most significant mark of a good teacher is that he/she always wants their students to exceed them, to go beyond what they have done or said - anything less is a kind of academic betrayal of the teacher. Just to be clear, this is not about forgetting what the teacher has said but going on to apply it in new way, to innovate and find new meaning or new application and new teachings.

I want to be careful what I say here but any good academic has to say to his/her students 'now find your own way' and in a kind of paradox, out of respect for the teacher they do that, they try to go beyond them. Otherwise what any academic has said becomes nothing but idolatry. Jacob Bronowski (you can find his quotes all over the web) said two pertinent ones here: "Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty" and "It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it. " Therefore, I find it impossible to ever think of locking myself into an opinion simply because someone of renown said it, that to me seems like intellectual suicide and a betrayal of a good teacher?
I'm genuinely short on time at the moment, but I hope a few brief points will suffice in response:

1. Although I referred to this as a research paper (the sites hosts a number of research papers on various topics), this particular series of articles appears more likely to me to be a translation of a book or essay on the topic from the original Arabic.

2. Many of the names are mentioned as part of what is known in Arabic as an isnad (chain of narration). This is used to determine the authenticity of a particular narration by scrutisining each name in the chain and evaluating the authenticity of the narration based on what is known about each individual who transmitted the narration through the chain. As an aside, the science (and indeed it is a science) of hadeeth authentication is considered to be one of the greatest achievements in human intellectual history. And that is no exaggeration. You can gain more insight into this topic from this lecture by a certain Dr. Jonathan Brown: http://vimeo.com/7216747

3. In other places, the article quotes the name of a certain scholar along with their views on the topic. I wouldn't describe this as undue reverence, but while recognising that no scholar is infallible, certain scholars have become well-known historically for their knowledge in certain areas and their deep insight into matters of the religion, and, through this, have essentially established themselves as authorities on religious issues. However, individual scholars can sometimes be wrong and so the final say should always rest with what God and his messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said. If something which a scholar says contradicts that, then what that scholar said is to be rejected.

4. Islamic history is actually replete with instances where a student ends up holding a different opinion on an issue than the opinion held by their teacher. It's all about trying one's best to understand the religion as it was intended by God and his messenger. That's where the final say lies. Therefore, you shouldn't think that Muslims are so in awe of their teachers/scholars that they take everything which they say to the exclusion of everything else. Hopefully, this is clear.

If you do have any more questions, I probably won't have time to answer them but maybe somebody else here will. I hope this will do for now.
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Impey
06-02-2011, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Just for a clarification, singing the Qur'an is forbidden. It's recited in a melodious tone, but not sang.
I am new to all this, so is this your opinion or can you cite a verse to prove this point?
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al yunan
06-02-2011, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I am new to all this, so is this your opinion or can you cite a verse to prove this point?




To chant is a more recognised word as do the Rabbis and E.O church.

The difference being in Islam there are recital rules such as pronunciation and timing and pauses.

Watch a video and you will hear.
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Impey
06-02-2011, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Assalaamu Alaaykum

I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah
Thanks for the link and I watched both videos and two things struck me. First the words 'idle talk' morphs into a Music - is there no word in Arabic for Music and if not why can't the Qu'ran be clear? Second, he gives no rationale that made sense (to me). He mentions music being used to sell but so do a lot of other things - on this site there are adverts but that cannot be a reason anyone knew about 1400 years ago. He also suggests it all comes from Satan and I can't buy that at all - there is no doubt bad music and music can lead to bad things but so can 101 other things, books for example.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-03-2011, 04:36 PM
Greeings of peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Thanks for the link and I watched both videos and two things struck me. First the words 'idle talk' morphs into a Music - is there no word in Arabic for Music and if not why can't the Qu'ran be clear? Second, he gives no rationale that made sense (to me). He mentions music being used to sell but so do a lot of other things - on this site there are adverts but that cannot be a reason anyone knew about 1400 years ago. He also suggests it all comes from Satan and I can't buy that at all - there is no doubt bad music and music can lead to bad things but so can 101 other things, books for example.
You are welcome..

Thank you for your questions
Idle talk= talk about stuff there is no benefit in, it may morph into the context of music because most music as far as I am aware involves no beneficial talk towards a muslim, though there maybe some who disagree with me that is there opinions, There is the Qur'aan to listen to..

Also I am not so knowledgeable so I will leave it to those with more knowledge...

Bad music has no good influence on one, good music makes one think they will remain in this world for ever and other stuff, though feel free to disagree with me if you will...

It depends what is your understanding of 'good music'?

Differences between books is that either there are different genres e.g. Horror, adventure, romance, fiction, non-fiction etc etc.. same for music e.g hip hop, rnb, pop, etc etc
So yes there are some bad stuff in books..does that not mean we should then keep away from reading them?

If i have not fully answered properly i hope someone else will insha'Allaah

.. peace ..
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Impey
06-05-2011, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm genuinely short on time at the moment, but I hope a few brief points will suffice in response:

1. Although I referred to this as a research paper (the sites hosts a number of research papers on various topics), this particular series of articles appears more likely to me to be a translation of a book or essay on the topic from the original Arabic.....
This post links with #43, 73 and 76 and refers to links to research papers on the music issue. I have viewed the video of Dr Brown on hadith science and before I ask questions about the 4 papers I will review what In have learned on Hadith issues as I do not want to make a mistake.

All religions have to decide what is legitimate and what is not thus the purpose of Hadith is to tell you what the prophet believed and what he did. There are three types of Hadith: sayings, actions and things done/said in his presence to which he did not object. There are two parts to a Hadith: the isnad and the text plus Brown suggests we could add a third that of interpretation. Some Hadith are regarded as 'elevated' meaning it starts with the prophet. The Basic rule is that if the prophet said or did something it must be true/right with the sira often giving the context of a saying or a revelation.

In the early days there were little in the way of written records and it was all in the minds of the followers so nothing written remains. Early collections were mostly about the meaning of words and only later were interpretations added. The first formal collection were around 800 CE, some considerable time after the death of the prophet and these hadith tended to be only things related to the prophet though there are other things that became cultural norms where most of the Ummah agreed.

From all this we get three basic categories: Forbidden, Allowed and optional where contradictory accounts occurred where the prophet said one thing one day and something different ion another day. The transmitter characteristics: continuity of the chain of transmitters (ittisal assanad), The integrity ('adalah) of the transmitters, soundness of memory of the transmitters and Conformity of the Hadith.

That is a quick summary of the video (which last 58 minutes).

My questions on this science:

Firstly, it seems circular in that it depends on the transmitters but their integrity is vouched by other transmitters although there is a separate biographical science tat covers this but it does look a weakness though nothing much can be done. Secondly, everything is reduced to just Mohammed and two question (for me) arise here: is he the only possible person that could say or do some good things (surely other could say and do things just as good) and so my problem is how one guards against idolatry here. Finally, I could not find anything in the talk as a means of validating what was actually said - if the Haith is authentic then I have no difficulty accepting that Mohammed said something but I do find it hard to see how what he said must necessarily be true. For example, Dr Brown gave a few examples about the heavens and I could not see how in any way such saying could be checked?

I wound appreciate any comments
Reply

Uthman
06-05-2011, 03:09 PM
Hi Impey,

You've raised some questions about hadeeth science which probably require more than a short response. So as not to divert the thread from it's original topic (although I can see how it is related), I would suggest writing this post in a new thread because it could take a while to clarify e.g. if you want to ask follow up questions. If and when the question is resolved, we can always come back here to continue discussing the papers. Does that seem fair?

I have an exam tomorrow, but I'll see if I can come back and respond some time after that.
Reply

Impey
06-17-2011, 08:49 PM
Be away for a few days but now would like to make some comments. I have spent quite some time reading the hadith on the Music issue and other opinions. If we focus on argument not dogma here there seem to be 4 suggested reasons for declaring music forbidden (though you will not find them all in the hadith):

Effects the emotions, Might lead to bad things or situations (this is by far the most common), Might distract or stop a persons devotions; prayers and reading
Effects the brain

Of course I understand that one needs principles for living but what I find uncomfortable, very uncomfortable is the notion of deriving principles solely by what one man, Mohammed, said or did without as far as I can see (and I am new to all this) any rational discourse beyond that and someone will have to explain to me why it is not idolatry. However, I can say fairly certainly that the 4 reasons listed above are true but I can also list 101 other things that do all of these so I can find no logic in singling out Music. For example, books have had massive effect on human society: consider Mine Kampf or the writings of Plato or Karl Marks creating effects way beyond anything attributable to Music. Now it is without doubt true that the prophet of Islam and the companions had a very limited experience of what the world is like being confined to a desert existence. So other than through stories there is no way any of these people could know about the enormous range of flowers, forests, mountains streams, rivers, storms, clouds and rain, birds and animals, people and cultures and so on. In today's world there are many thousands of music styles and if one includes sub-styles its probably hundreds of thousands: Acapella, opera, jazz, blues, classical, soul, heavy metal... the list is endless. Coupled with that there are thousands of different instruments: trumpet, piano, harp, viola, organ and so on. It follows that trusting what your early farther of the faith say about things they could not possibly know anything about would be unsafe and unwise.

I have a few other things to say but I will leave you with some questions:

1. Is it true that 'GOOD' is defined by what Mohammed said or did, no need for rationalisation, no discussion of what values might be involved or consider that others might have said and done good things?
2. Birds sing, and it is possible to write down using musical notation exactly what they sing and there are hundreds of pieces that do just that. That is how God created them and those who accept this ban are in effect saying that bird song must not be listened to because it is evil?
3. When I was at school (long time ago) we used to every Wednesday sing Psalm 150 which mentions praising God using trumpets, lute, lyre, drum, strings, pipe, cymbals! Why would God changes his mind on this and surely there is more than one way to praise God?
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-18-2011, 08:45 PM
Greetings of peace Impey

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Of course I understand that one needs principles for living but what I find uncomfortable, very uncomfortable is the notion of deriving principles solely by what one man, Mohammed, said or did without as far as I can see (and I am new to all this) any rational discourse beyond that and someone will have to explain to me why it is not idolatry.
Firstly..Idoltry-worshipping idols from my understanding..Muhammad (pbuh) is meant to be a perfect rolemodel for mankind..though you may have your difficulties in understanding this..
We as muslims do not worship Muhammad (pbuh), but we do follow him.

Whatever he did in life, how he dealt with situations hardships or happiness, he was the best in all, and so the Qur'aan talks about the character of Muhammad (pbuh)

"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character."[ Al Qur'aan 68:4]
"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much." [Al Qur'aan 33:21]

We respect him so we say peace and blessing of Allaah be unto him after we mention his blessed name, we do the same with every other prophet of God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
However, I can say fairly certainly that the 4 reasons listed above are true but I can also list 101 other things that do all of these so I can find no logic in singling out Music. For example, books have had massive effect on human society: consider Mine Kampf or the writings of Plato or Karl Marks creating effects way beyond anything attributable to Music.
Can you mention the other things that list 101 reasons that do these? and who said as muslims we dont signle out other things that lead one astray?


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Now it is without doubt true that the prophet of Islam and the companions had a very limited experience of what the world is like being confined to a desert existence. So other than through stories there is no way any of these people could know about the enormous range of flowers, forests, mountains streams, rivers, storms, clouds and rain, birds and animals, people and cultures and so on.
They may not, but their creator who created these various range of things did know, because he is the one who created it.

Have you read about the life of the prophet Muhamamd (pbuh)? and also have you read the Qur'aan?

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
In today's world there are many thousands of music styles and if one includes sub-styles its probably hundreds of thousands: Acapella, opera, jazz, blues, classical, soul, heavy metal... the list is endless. Coupled with that there are thousands of different instruments: trumpet, piano, harp, viola, organ and so on. It follows that trusting what your early farther of the faith say about things they could not possibly know anything about would be unsafe and unwise.
There is a hadeeth that makes it clear that instruments were made lawful when in actual they are unlawful..it doesnt matter what genre or music type it is, it is all music and consists of one category - music.

I dont understand what a few musical instruments contain within them that once someone plays them or listens to them suddently becomes wise either.

If you believe in God and realise that whatever he permitted for us i.e humankind is good for us and whatever he forbade us is bad for us and you would follow that path knowing it is the straight path, then certainly you are wrong in saying that the one who God sent as his messenger isnt wise. rather ofcourse it is wise.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
1. Is it true that 'GOOD' is defined by what Mohammed said or did, no need for rationalisation, no discussion of what values might be involved or consider that others might have said and done good things?
Yes, whatever the Prophet (pbuh) did was good, because he stayed and taught to stay away from bad, stay away from that which harms one. Whatever which is considered lawful and unlawful is mentioned in the Qur'aan, the Prophet was the guide.

The Qur'aan teaches us to stay away from something bad that actually 'leads' to bad i.e the first step.

I hope someone can give you a better answer than mine..

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
2. Birds sing, and it is possible to write down using musical notation exactly what they sing and there are hundreds of pieces that do just that. That is how God created them and those who accept this ban are in effect saying that bird song must not be listened to because it is evil?
Bird song is natural it isnt considered as evil nor wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
3. When I was at school (long time ago) we used to every Wednesday sing Psalm 150 which mentions praising God using trumpets, lute, lyre, drum, strings, pipe, cymbals! Why would God changes his mind on this and surely there is more than one way to praise God?
Im interested to know, did God command you to praise him with musical instruments?

God doesnt change his mind, through all his scriptures he asked to be worshipped alone without partners, this in accordance to the Qur'aan...

Yes, certainly there may be many ways to praise God, but if its according to how he prescribed..

.. peace ..
Reply

Impey
06-18-2011, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Firstly..Idoltry-worshipping idols from my understanding.. Muhammad (pbuh) is meant to be a perfect rolemodel for mankind..though you may have your difficulties in understanding this.. We as muslims do not worship Muhammad (pbuh), but we do follow him.
I think after reading through various posting and articles I appreciate how you see Mohammed but in my reading I have also come across saying and actions of your prophet that seem to me reprehensible, quite wrong. Here is not the place to rehears such matters though. I might add here that I have a lot of difficulty with a verse like
"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character."[ Al Qur'aan 68:4] because we only know it because your prophet told us so its all a bit circular.

Can you mention the other things that list 101 reasons that do these? and who said as muslims we dont signle out other things that lead one astray?
Well I will refrain from mentioning 101 things. But if we take the argument that Music is wrong because it distracts from reading the Qu'ran, then it is obvious that books, football, TV, friends, food, etc can all do that but none (as far as I know) of these are banned. By the way I have read the Qu'ran (Dawood and Arberry) plus a biography or two. But surely, if God created things that must include Music and therefore it must be good?

There is a hadeeth that makes it clear that instruments were made lawful when in actual they are unlawful..it doesnt matter what genre or music type it is, it is all music and consists of one category - music.
I cannot quote make sense of this lawful/unlawful. But later I will post my thoughts on the three papers cited by Uthman. I think also you misunderstood what I was saying, I did not say that Music make you wise, I said that trusting judgements made by men with very limited knowledge of music is unwise

Bird song is natural it isnt considered as evil nor wrong.
But it is Music and the ban appears to be for all Music but more importantly, why is it natural for a bird to sing but not for a human?

Im interested to know, did God command you to praise him with musical instruments? God doesnt change his mind, through all his scriptures he asked to be worshipped alone without partners, this in accordance to the Qur'aan...
Well Psalm 150 make it plain as plain can be that everything should be used to praise God - if you read it you will see that for yourself. I think the implication of that Psalm is that you can praise God silently in your heart but sometimes one can be so overcome with thankfulness and worship you simply have to sing it out.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-18-2011, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I think after reading through various posting and articles I appreciate how you see Mohammed but in my reading I have also come across saying and actions of your prophet that seem to me reprehensible, quite wrong. Here is not the place to rehears such matters though. I might add here that I have a lot of difficulty with a verse like
"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character."[ Al Qur'aan 68:4] because we only know it because your prophet told us so its all a bit circular.
The verse I posted is posted from the Qur'aan...can i know the source for the 'reprehensible' stuff you read in regards to the Prophet (pbuh) insha'Allaah..

Keep in mind I never said the Prophet told us so..but because the Qur'aan told us so.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Well I will refrain from mentioning 101 things. But if we take the argument that Music is wrong because it distracts from reading the Qu'ran, then it is obvious that books, football, TV, friends, food, etc can all do that but none (as far as I know) of these are banned. By the way I have read the Qu'ran (Dawood and Arberry) plus a biography or two. But surely, if God created things that must include Music and therefore it must be good?
Yes, books, football, Tv, friends, food can all be put in this category..and as I mentioned, Islaam doesnt single these issues out when leading one astray..

Let me give you an example..A muslim is required to lower their gaze, so if this muslim went to a football match I would assume it would be difficult to lower ones gaze. And watching some few guys kicking a ball around on a field with people screaming around you isnt exactly the most beneficial thing for a muslim to be doing. so rather the muslim would be adviced to something that is beneficial..As muslims we are aware that death can take over an individual at any moment of their life, the individual isnt aware of this no matter how healthy or young they think they are..that we use our time more usefully and that we do not waste our time. It is that we use it wisely.

Narrated Abdullah Bin Mas`ud Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:

"A man shall be asked concerning five things on the day of resurrection: concerning his life, how he spent it; concerning his youth, how he grew old; concerning his wealth, whence he acquired it, and in what way he spent it; and what was it that he did with the knowledge that he had."

Have you read surah Al Asr (The time) the chapter in the noble Qur'aan?

"By Al-'Asr (the time).Verily! Man is in loss,Except those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth (i.e. order one another to perform all kinds of good deeds (Al-Ma'ruf)which Allah has ordained, and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds (Al-Munkar)which Allah has forbidden), and recommend one another to patience (for the sufferings, harms, and injuries which one may encounter in Allah\'s Cause during preaching His religion of Islamic Monotheism or Jihad, etc.)." [Al Qur'aan 103:1-3]

God created music? im not so sure I can agree upon that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I cannot quote make sense of this lawful/unlawful. But later I will post my thoughts on the three papers cited by Uthman. I think also you misunderstood what I was saying, I did not say that Music make you wise, I said that trusting judgements made by men with very limited knowledge of music is unwise
Lawful-permissable..unlawful-forbidden.

I meant to say music doesnt make one wise because i believe that, same way you mentioned something without knowledge and only because you believe it or have heard of it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
But it is Music and the ban appears to be for all Music but more importantly, why is it natural for a bird to sing but not for a human?
I remember reading somewhere that the singing of birds, the rustling of the trees, the sounds of waves in the ocean as defined as sounds of nature, it is not classed as 'music', the same way the recitation of the Qur'aan isnt musical nor music. we dont regard nature as a sin, but if we see from our own human natural desires if we do not control them it will lead us to sin.

It is encouraged that we muslims recite the Qur'aan in a beautiful way, this is also a natural sound. Even as far as I am aware the prophet David (as) had a beautiful voice.

but as far as for instruments they are considered to be unlawful..


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Well Psalm 150 make it plain as plain can be that everything should be used to praise God - if you read it you will see that for yourself. I think the implication of that Psalm is that you can praise God silently in your heart but sometimes one can be so overcome with thankfulness and worship you simply have to sing it out.
I personally do not disagree with praising God.

but singing it out is something i most certainly disagree with, being the servant of the most high I can praise him in my heart, I know that wherever I will be he will be listening to me. As a christian are you not required to follow Jesus (pbuh)? or I am incorrect in saying you are a christian?

Singing in loud voices including some beat to the song as in instruments being involved and dancing to God to praise him i find really disturbing..

I apologise if I have offended you but I am merely speaking from what I personally believe from my ownself.
Reply

Starrynight
06-22-2011, 11:26 AM
I have discovered the Muslim group "Native Deen". Their music has the American style, but their lyrics and message are pure.
Reply

Impey
06-24-2011, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
The verse I posted is posted from the Qur'aan...can i know the source for the 'reprehensible' stuff you read in regards to the Prophet (pbuh) insha'Allaah..
Well I am reluctant to do this as I don't want to offend anyone. But I recently came across the case of Safiah, the Jewish wife of your prophet and I read that Mohammed consummated the marriage on the same day that he had killed/murdered her husband, father and brother. I cannot see how such a marriage was legitimate and try though I may I cannot see an ounce of compassion in this action. I have read a number of hadith (but I don't know how to be sure I have read them all) and looked at Bassam Zawadi's article at http://www.answering-christianity.co...he_prophet.htm but to me he seems to just sidestep the issues.

Let me give you an example..A muslim is required to lower their gaze, so if this muslim went to a football match I would assume it would be difficult to lower ones gaze. And watching some few guys kicking a ball around on a field with people screaming around you isnt exactly the most beneficial thing for a muslim to be doing. so rather the muslim would be adviced to something that is beneficial..As muslims we are aware that death can take over an individual at any moment of their life, the individual isnt aware of this no matter how healthy or young they think they are..that we use our time more usefully and that we do not waste our time. It is that we use it wisely.
I see your point and have some sympathy with it but it does feel as if having any 'fun' is not allowed and one wonders if you take it too far one ends up creating a wilderness of misery because fun, joy is not allowed and hate because almost everything you see looks wrong in others?
Have you read surah Al Asr (The time)The chapter in the noble Qur'aan? "By Al-'Asr (the time).Verily! Man is in loss,Except those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth (i.e. order one another to perform all kinds of good deeds (Al-Ma'ruf)which Allah has ordained, and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds (Al-Munkar)which Allah has forbidden), and recommend one another to patience (for the sufferings, harms, and injuries which one may encounter in Allah\'s Cause during preaching His religion of Islamic Monotheism or Jihad, etc.)." [Al Qur'aan 103:1-3]
Well I have now and I feel some agreement with it though I cannot subscribe to the notion that it must be Islam. I suppose what bothers me is what it means when it speaks of 'good deeds' as that seems not to be defined by any set of values but by what you prophet said or did. My point is I suppose that I don't need to Qu'ran or your prophet to tell me that I should help those in difficulty, ease the pain of someone who is suffering, relieve the oppressed or deny that Mozart's piano concert no 20 is a priceless beauty.

God created music? im not so sure I can agree upon that.
Bird song is music and surely God must have created that? Of course if you wish you can decide that it is not music but by the same token I can decide that the beautiful piano prelude no 9 by Cui is not music and declare it allowed - we have to be consistent. Of course I agree with you that things, any things can lead us into sin as you call it - even the Qu'ran - can you see that it would be possible to misuse what it says so that you or me can do what we like?

It is encouraged that we muslims recite the Qur'aan in a beautiful way, this is also a natural sound. Even as far as I am aware the prophet David (as) had a beautiful voice. but as far as for instruments they are considered to be unlawful..
I suppose this is where we get into difficulties as all music lovers regard the voice as an instrument - I shall say more on this in a later post.

but singing it out is something i most certainly disagree with, being the servant of the most high I can praise him in my heart, I know that wherever I will be he will be listening to me. As a Christian are you not required to follow Jesus (pbuh)? or I am incorrect in saying you are a Christian? Singing in loud voices including some beat to the song as in instruments being involved and dancing to God to praise him i find really disturbing..
That is fine but it is only your view and I quite understand that you may find quiet the thing for you - but would you deny the joy of praising God aloud and in Music to others is what really matters here? I have heard the Qu'ran recited a few time and to me it does not sound beautiful, it sounds monotone and bland - now that might just be me as I come from a land where song and singing is part of my very nature. Now if I were a Christian I imagine that there would be times when when I would want silence, praise as you say in the heart but I cannot even imagine that there would never be other times that I might not want to sing at the top of my voice.

Like you, I apologise if I have offended you but I am merely speaking from what I personally believe from my own self.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
06-24-2011, 11:06 PM
Greetings of peace


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Well I am reluctant to do this as I don't want to offend anyone. But I recently came across the case of Safiah, the Jewish wife of your prophet and I read that Mohammed consummated the marriage on the same day that he had killed/murdered her husband, father and brother. I cannot see how such a marriage was legitimate and try though I may I cannot see an ounce of compassion in this action. I have read a number of hadith (but I don't know how to be sure I have read them all) and looked at Bassam Zawadi's article at http://www.answering-christianity.co...he_prophet.htm but to me he seems to just sidestep the issues.
Did you not read the article that you posted? The fact is it is mentioned in the article that she was angry as would any other women, but the fact is also when someone is going to force to fight with you one would do so with defence.

I am not going to completely answer this Question of yours, because I have not much knowledge of this topic and from my view nor have you, so this topic is one you and I should gain more knowledge and understanding from..


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I see your point and have some sympathy with it but it does feel as if having any 'fun' is not allowed and one wonders if you take it too far one ends up creating a wilderness of misery because fun, joy is not allowed and hate because almost everything you see looks wrong in others?
There is fun in Islaam, but there are limits.. You do realise a billion years ago they never had any of this you listed..

When I mentioned in regards to football I am referring to everything you mentioned...I never said playing football is wrong nor did I say that some guys watching their guy friends playing football is wrong either..The point of my post was that one should refrain from attending events that would be of no good in real sense. Like if there is a place raving with fitnah, then it is advised to refrain from going ..in other words one would try their best to stay away from the bad as much as possible, keep in mind I am aware living in the west it is difficult to avoid such things on a normal basis such as for example, for men and women it is required to lower their gaze, now with women and men every where on the street on the path wherever, this would ofcourse be diffiucult..but when one who wants to get closer to his lord will follow his commands to the best of his ability, even Allaah mentions in the Qur'aan "No soul bears a burden more than it can handle". so one will strive to the best, there is no harm in doing that?


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Well I have now and I feel some agreement with it though I cannot subscribe to the notion that it must be Islam. I suppose what bothers me is what it means when it speaks of 'good deeds' as that seems not to be defined by any set of values but by what you prophet said or did. My point is I suppose that I don't need to Qu'ran or your prophet to tell me that I should help those in difficulty, ease the pain of someone who is suffering, relieve the oppressed or deny that Mozart's piano concert no 20 is a priceless beauty.
The Prophet was an example, a rolemodel, now we cannot be completely perfect like him or any of the prophets, but what we can do good with good intentions. It is God who commanded man to do good and forbid the evil no doubt I am sure you are aware of this also..God sent his messenger for our guidance..whatever he did follow it so that you may suceed..

For every every messenger that was sent to every nation, they all commanded good to their people and taught to stay away from that which is harmful..

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Bird song is music and surely God must have created that? Of course if you wish you can decide that it is not music but by the same token I can decide that the beautiful piano prelude no 9 by Cui is not music and declare it allowed - we have to be consistent. Of course I agree with you that things, any things can lead us into sin as you call it - even the Qu'ran - can you see that it would be possible to misuse what it says so that you or me can do what we like?
From my understanding if bird humming is classed as music so would be the Qur'aan..but unfortunately this is incorrect Qur'aan simply means the recitation..for that which contains musical instruments, with a tune, beat, whatever is music, im not sure exactly what your defintion is..

Do you know an Acappella is simply singing with ones voice and not music, but adding to it would definetly rule it as music. Consistency is ofcourse vital..keep in mind the recitation of the Qur'aan is a sound recited by a human yet its not classed as a sin nor use..

To misuse what it says is a sin, to mis-interpret the Qur'aanic words is impossible, if one does they are wronging themselves because they are making up stuff about the Qur'aan, adding or lying about the book this is no way is acceptable, one is not required to take knowledge blindy, but rather seek knowledge.


format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
I suppose this is where we get into difficulties as all music lovers regard the voice as an instrument - I shall say more on this in a later post.
Let me tell you I was once a 'music lover' I would love to hear what you have to say.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
That is fine but it is only your view and I quite understand that may find quiet the think for you - but would you deny the joy of praising God aloud and in Music to others. I have heard the Qu'ran recited a few time and to me it does not sound beauty full, it sounds monotone and bland - now that might just be me as I come from a land where song and singing is part of my very nature. Now if I were a Christian I imagine that there would be times when when I would want silence. praise as you say in the heart but I cannot even imagine that there would never be other times that I might not want to sing at the top of my voice.
Yes it is okay to praise God ou loud but in secret, wouldnt you say? If you were to praise God infront of people loudly, does that not increase one in pride or lead one to boast? but instead praise him raising your hands speaking to him in your heart?

Also I will also speak to you from experience speaking as a muslim, there were times I would not feel the will in wnating to listen to Qur'aan even though I believed it was the word of God, id prefer music, it didnt matter what type it was, religious, good worded etc, I could not ever see myself listening to the Qur'aan, i realised the heart does love one thing, what you feed it, it will love it, one day i decided to change and listen to the Qur'aan and to me it seemed the most beautiful to listen to, i slowly strayed from music even it was about Islaam( I am referring to nasheeds with instruments not without). I am not completely sure if this is the same for everyone but i myself im convinced that you cannot love both at the same time.. And again you may disagree, but try it for yourself if you will maybe just for an experience..

However I ask you this Question again:
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
As a christian are you not required to follow Jesus (pbuh)? or I am incorrect in saying you are a christian?

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
Like you, I apologise if I have offended you but I am merely speaking from what I personally believe from my own self
Thank you
Reply

Impey
06-29-2011, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Did you not read the article that you posted? The fact is it is mentioned in the article that she was angry as would any other women, but the fact is also when someone is going to force to fight with you one would do so with defence. I am not going to completely answer this Question of yours, because I have not much knowledge of this topic and from my view nor have you, so this topic is one you and I should gain more knowledge and understanding from..
Yes I read it through plus others but perhaps that discussion is for another thread.
When I mentioned in regards to football I am referring to everything you mentioned...I never said playing football is wrong nor did I say that some guys watching their guy friends playing football is wrong either..The point of my post was that one should refrain from attending events that would be of no good in real sense. Like if there is a place raving with fitnah, then it is advised to refrain from going ..in other words one would try their best to stay away from the bad as much as possible, keep in mind I am aware living in the west it is difficult to avoid such things on a normal basis such as for example, for men and women it is required to lower their gaze, now with women and men every where on the street on the path wherever, this would ofcourse be diffiucult..but when one who wants to get closer to his lord will follow his commands to the best of his ability, even Allaah mentions in the Qur'aan "No soul bears a burden more than it can handle". so one will strive to the best, there is no harm in doing that?
I think I follow you and I would agree that one should avoid some things. But for me the truth is something one lives and in that living we do the will of our maker. If all we do is simply obey the law, the do nots I would feel that is an empty existence and I would want a more positive life than that, for me good intention would never be enough. I don't know if you know this but there is an English expression that goes "he/she is so heavenly minded they are no earthly good"

Do you know an Acappella is simply singing with ones voice and not music, but adding to it would definetly rule it as music. Consistency is ofcourse vital..keep in mind the recitation of the Qur'aan is a sound recited by a human yet its not classed as a sin nor use..
Well I think we might define music in many ways: agreeable sounds using voice or instruments or both structured in a continuous manner, auditory communication?
To misuse what it says is a sin, to mis-interpret the Qur'aanic words is impossible.
I have never before heard this said about anything and cannot see how it could possibly be. In fact reading about hadith science I discovered that in Islam the Qu'ran and hadith are said to be divinely protected but interpretations are not so I think you may be wrong here unless you meant something else.
Let me tell you I was once a 'music lover' I would love to hear what you have to say.
The voice is an instrument since the way sounds are produced is similar to many wind instruments. In music one often finds composers going beyond instruments to the human voice because it has qualities that cannot be reproduced. You I think may have heard of Beethoven 9th symphony. It was the first example of a major composer using voices in a symphony (thus making it a choral symphony) where the words are sung during the final movement by four vocal soloists and a chorus with words taken from the famous "Ode to Joy", a poem written by Friedrich Schiller. Its great and inspiring music and its speaks of a joy unsurpassed and I cannot hear it without it deeply affecting me for the good.

At the other end of the scale we have what are affectionately known as 'lollipops', tiny musical master pieces that are just wonderful to hear - for example, Fritz Kreisler, a violinist and a man who radiated a gentleness and refinement not unlike his music often played at the end of his concerts Liebesleid. Here is a man who brought and is still bringing unspeakable joy to those who hear him play on records (he died a long time ago) - I just cannot, well refuse to see how anyone could see this as harmful.

Yes it is okay to praise God ou loud but in secret, wouldnt you say? If you were to praise God infront of people loudly, does that not increase one in pride or lead one to boast? but instead praise him raising your hands speaking to him in your heart?
Of course I understand that believers want to feel near to their God but faith, if it is worth having, is something to be lived out in a transformed life not forever squandered in secret, though of course I can appreciate that there are times when one wants to be alone in prayer and meditation. Self pride I agree is the worst of sins but I get the feeling that one can be proud of being pious too so that one is deluded into thinking you are better than others.

Also I will also speak to you from experience speaking as a muslim, there were times I would not feel the will in wnating to listen to Qur'aan even though I believed it was the word of God, id prefer music, it didnt matter what type it was, religious, good worded etc, I could not ever see myself listening to the Qur'aan, i realised the heart does love one thing, what you feed it, it will love it, one day i decided to change and listen to the Qur'aan and to me it seemed the most beautiful to listen to, i slowly strayed from music even it was about Islaam( I am referring to nasheeds with instruments not without). I am not completely sure if this is the same for everyone but i myself im convinced that you cannot love both at the same time.. And again you may disagree, but try it for yourself if you will maybe just for an experience..
I am sure you are right up to a point, if one has a religious faith then one needs to immerse yourself in the word of God. But I feel also that God expects us to get on with life and enjoy it, helping others along the way. I for one want faith in action, a faith that is life changing and world changing - what good is it if I or you sit all day listening to the Qu'ran whilst the world around us is suffering? Surely, if there is a God he wants us to enjoy the world he has placed us in as well as work for good in it and if we have any sense of love or humanity we will go for what is good and avoid what is evil.

If I were to choose a faith it would be Christian - the reason is that it enjoins the golden rule - do as you would be done by and I also find is absolutely mind boggling that Christianity teaches people to love their enemies - that is powerful stuff.
Reply

Just_A_Girl13
06-29-2011, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
If I were to choose a faith it would be Christian - the reason is that it enjoins the golden rule - do as you would be done by and I also find is absolutely mind boggling that Christianity teaches people top love their enemies - that is powerful stuff.
It is my understanding that Islam also teaches the golden rule, and that a person should love their enemies. Wasn't the Prophet (s.a.w.) a man who was kind and generous to everyone? I once read somewhere that he would give any person whatever they asked of him, even if he needed it for himself, and even for his enemies. I'll try to find the article for you....
Reply

Who Am I?
06-29-2011, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Impey
If I were to choose a faith it would be Christian - the reason is that it enjoins the golden rule - do as you would be done by and I also find is absolutely mind boggling that Christianity teaches people to love their enemies - that is powerful stuff.

Islam teaches the same things, and it is true monotheism besides. I have no problem with Christianity or Christians, but there are some doctrinal issues that I disagree with, which is one reason I chose Islam.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-30-2011, 02:50 AM
Greetings Impey

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

But for me the truth is something one lives and in that living we do the will of our maker. If all we do is simply obey the law, the do nots I would feel that is an empty existence .

For Muslims the truth is in the teachings and commands of the Lord. Surely he knows what is best for us because he created us and only wants the best for us.

So in your words following the commands of the Lord an "Empty existence", whereas Muslims believe that following the teachings and commands of the Lord is the ONLY way to live because we are here to fulfil the purpose of our creation and that is to worship Allah and none but him.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

I just cannot, well refuse to see how anyone could see this as harmful.

There is no doubt that most of the main stream Music of today contains obscene and blasphemous language, encourages or promotes immoral behaviour, arouses lustful feelings, encourages the consumption of intoxicants and drugs and contains unethical and un-Islamic lyrics.

All of this type of Music is totally forbidden as well as being harmful to one's imaan (faith). Music is also a distraction and makes one forgetful of the purpose of life and heedful of the remembrance of Allah as well as weakening the heart.

It alters and changes the mood and blood pressure levels. Some types of music with certain instruments are permissible on certain occasions but as Muslims we are cautious about matters which pertain to our way of life - Islam.

So we try our best to stay away from doubtful matters as we try our bst to do everything which pleases Allah and refrain from anything which angers or displeases him.

We are those who follow the words and teachings of God and his Prophet and do not disregard our scriptures like some other religions do.

As Muslims we have one purpose and that is to worship Allah. Muslims we believe it makes one forgetful about the purpose of life and the remembrance of Allah as well as weakening the heart.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

I am sure you are right up to a point, if one has a religious faith then one needs to immerse yourself in the word of God. But I feel also that God expects us to get on with life and enjoy it, helping others along the way.

I for one want faith in action, a faith that is life changing and world changing - what good is it if I or you sit all day listening to the Qur’an whilst the world around us is suffering?

Surely, if there is a God he wants us to enjoy the world he has placed us in as well as work for good in it and if we have any sense of love or humanity we will go for what is good and avoid what is evil.


As Muslims we do not just sit there and listen to the Qur'an without taking action but we listen to and read the words of Allah it in order to implement his teachings into our daily lives.

There is no use in us as Muslims reading or listening to the Qur'an if we are not going to try and understand and implement it into our everyday life.

In Islam knowledge is meant to be put into action and not just stored in the memory.

Islam also enjoins that Muslims be active members of the community who commit themselves to helping others as well as doing good deeds like charitable acts and being the best towards others. The best are those who are the most benefit to others so as Muslims we try to be the most benefit we can to our society as a whole well as those in need.

If anyone reads the Qur'an and teachings of the Prophet properly they would know these facts and they would also know what an exemplary example the Prophet was to the whole of mankind.



format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

If I were to choose a faith it would be Christian - the reason is that it enjoins the golden rule - do as you would be done by - I also find is absolutely mind boggling that Christianity teaches people to love their enemies - that is powerful stuff.

What is also mind boggling is that the teachings of incarnation, trinity, Cruci-fiction, Theotokas, blood atonement of Christ, the original sin, all of which are all fundamental teachings of Christianity are NOT supported by the explicit words or teachings of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus.

How can such fundamental teachings NOT be explicitly stated in the words of God or Jesus if they are meant to be so important and the very foundations of Christianity?

The only places you will find these teachings are in the words of Paul - The creator of Christianity and the Gospels which were written by anonymous men who had never met or had anything to do with Jesus.

Do you call that the religion of truth?

How can such unreliable anonymous writings of random men become the very foundations of Christianity?

Surely then Christianity is not a religion derived from the words and teachings of God or Jesus but that of Paul and anonymous writers of the Gospels because these are what Christianity is based upon.

Let others judge if they see Christianity as a "Religion of truth" based on these facts.

There is NO doubt that anyone who researches Christianity properly will find that it is the furthest from the truth you can ever get.

EVERY fundamental in Islam is FULLY supported by the teachings of Allah in the Qur'an which has been unchanged since revelation.

There is NO doubt that ANYONE who reads the Qur'an with an open heart will find that it is no less than a miracle and truly the words of God himself.
Reply

Ali Mujahidin
07-01-2011, 04:00 AM
:sl:

Let me share what I learned from a veteran karkon who was a successful musician before he chose dakwah to be his life work.

Music has a tendency to go round and round in our heads. First, we would listen many, many times to music or songs that we like. Then we would replay that piece of music or song in our mind. Finally, we would end by carrying that piece of music or song in our head as we go about our daily routine.

So what's wrong with that?

For a Muslim, a very worthy ambition to work towards is to be able to utter the Kalimah Tayyibah with our last breath. To achieve this we dhikr as much as we can, to the point that our hearts would beat with the repetition of the name of Allah.

Unfortunately, much as we would wish otherwise, our brains are not equipped to hold two different thoughts at the one and same time. So if we have a piece of music or a song swirling around in our brain, it is not possible to dhikr at the one and same time. Then, with our last breath, instead of uttering the Kalimah Tayyibah, we are more than likely to end our stay on this mortal realm still playing that piece of music or song in our mind. To die like that would very likely reduce our chances of going to jannah all the way down to zero.

Now, if you are going to ask, what's wrong with not going to jannah, I will have to seriously consider starting a thread with a title like, say, "The Benefits of Going to Hell in Your Own Way".

Hope this sheds some light on the issue of whether music is haram. WaLLahu aklam.
Reply

إحسان
07-02-2011, 11:12 PM
Music is all around us (especially in the Western world) so it is hard not to listen to music. But alhemdulilah I've been cutting down on the amount of music I listen to, I never was an avid music lover to be honest but a few years back I remember I used to listen to music EVERYDAY and I slacked in my prayer and reading Qur'an.

Singing with a duff (drum) is HALAL. Which nasheeds do. With the exception of artists such as Sami Yusuf who uses musical instruments.

Besides, why debate over whether music is haraam or okay? If you're unsure about something leave it. It won't benefit you to get to Jannah will it? So why bother debating?
Reply

Galaxy
07-05-2011, 12:19 AM
:wa:

Yes, music is haraam. People have different views on it though, such as the hadith in which the Prophet :saw: said: “Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” but some people say that this hadith has a broken isnaad chain, but this claim was refuted. Something like that. Those who seek to make music permissible (along with zinaa, silk, and alcohol) shall suffer a humiliating punishment. Watch all 11 parts of a lecture on YouTube called "The Classical Hit, It's Bad".

:sl:
Reply

Galaxy
07-05-2011, 12:19 AM
:wa:

Yes, music is haraam. People have different views on it though, such as the hadith in which the Prophet :saw: said: “Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” but some people say that this hadith has a broken isnaad chain, but this claim was refuted. Something like that. Those who seek to make music permissible (along with zinaa, silk, and alcohol) shall suffer a humiliating punishment. Watch all 11 parts of a lecture called: "The Classical Hit, It's Bad".

:sl:
Reply

JOHNJOHN
07-09-2011, 11:53 AM
Peace


I would to know why the music is Haram ?

Do you know that one of the prophete of God usded to play music ?


Peace.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
07-09-2011, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JOHNJOHN
Peace


I would to know why the music is Haram ?

Do you know that one of the prophete of God usded to play music ?


Peace.
Greetings John

I request that you read the posts in this thread first and then if you have any questions after that then you are more than welcome to ask.
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