Discrimination- A disscusion

[May Ayob]

Salaam Peace be to all :)

Today i wanted to discuss something, i think or in my opinion happens about in every corner in our beautiful planet.
Yes, it is discrimination , this is a major issue that we as huma nbeings all suffer and it comes in different ways and manners i'll just list out some very common types of discrimination nowadays:
There's the well known - Racial discrimination, the other Gender ,Ethnic and Cultural , Religous, but it there's more to it nowadays discrimination can be suffered by every indiviual if it gets to the point of Social discrimination and also suprisingly there is such a thing as Height and ofcourse Weight discrimination , it seems that we are fetching for every single flaw in our brother or sister in islam or humanity so that we can make fun of them or make our selves feel better by acting superior over them- from an islamic point of view it is very clear that most if not all these types of discriminations are all prohibitied and haraam we are all on the same boat on behalf of God almighty and i think it gets into a deeper meaning because when you are making fun of a person know very well that you aren't really making fun of them but you are kind of like saying - is that what God swt has created i could make something even better _ Auzthi billah and acting just like Ibless that devil I hope Allah protects us all , I think Diversity is a blessing and it is a test to see how are you going to treat your fellow human neighbor no matter what shade, what accent, what skin color, how they look and ..etc

What is your opinion on Discrimination and why is it so common now adays and What do you think are some solutions that we as Muslims and Human beings can follow to fight back this evil :)

I would apprectiate and respect very much your contribution and i hope i learn as much as i can from it :)
I also deeply hope you would give me a reply

Thank you very much in advance, Jazakum Allah u Khairan :)

[May Ayob]

i hope someone replies

[Who Am I?]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing skin color shows us is how close to the equator our ancestors lived. It doesn't mean anything else.

That being said, I think there is a natural bias among humans toward people that are similar to us. People that look the same, have the same language, religion, culture, interests, etc. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But it can lead to where you start thinking that one group is better than another simply based on how they look, how they worship, what language they speak, etc.

I personally have always tried to have an open mind and learn about those who are different from me. I admit that I have stumbled sometimes, particularly when I get a negative reaction from someone based on how I look, etc. That's when my anger takes over and I start using racial slurs, etc. I admit freely that I have done that in the past. I try not, but sometimes I stumble. I am only a mere man after all.

As far as solutions, I think education is the key. People fear what they don't understand. I know in my own life that I used to be afraid of Islam, and here I am almost ready to embrace it. How did I overcome that fear? I educated myself. I took it upon myself to learn all that I could about Islam and Muslims. Does it make me a better person? Maybe not. But at least I'm a smarter one now...

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

What is your opinion on Discrimination and why is it so common now adays and What do you think are some solutions that we as Muslims and Human beings can follow to fight back this evil

So I guess my opinion really does count. lol. Bless your heart for asking. :)

Discrimination is the result of ignorance and people stay ignorant because of a major disease in their heart... this disease is pride. Whoever has pride in his heart thinks that he is better than others. He thinks he has more knowledge and knows better. So he looks down upon others and belittles them. He begins to discriminate. He assigns a superior position to himself and refuses to listen to other people's point of view. Then he ceases to learn.... and his ignorance increases even more.

So to eliminate discrimination the remedy is to remove the disease of pride in the heart.

The remedy is to be open-minded and listen to the opinions of others. The solution lies in being humble and respecting the thoughts, feelings and ideas of other people.

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[May Ayob]

Salaam Peace be to all

Thank you Very much for replying back to me! it brought happiness to my heart i thought no one would reply but thank you very much, jazakum Allah u khairan. Thank you Sis flame for giving me a reputaion and also thank you for your Dua'a :) Thank you brother Just a guy as well
You know we all stumble sometime but the important thing is when we know the Truth and it's effect and what we are going to do about it.

:)

[May Ayob]

Salaam Again
I also wanted to add a bit based on what i have observed and my experience-
Regarding these types of discrimination but i hope what i am going to say makes sense...:)

1.Racial Dicrimination:
Well i'm dark skinned myself so i dont think i'll be speaking from an outsiders point of view and i'll try to be as honest as i can, so yeah,
As for that sure many people can make you feel like your dirty and your skin color is a sign of God hatred and blah blah blah ive had that through out my life but inside of me i didnt belive this about God you know the fitrah but at the same time i didnt really hate the people who used to do this i thought it was kind of ablessing because Now i know how it feels and so hopefully i dont do this to anyone, but yeah race has been an issue to many people the devil tricks people into thinking that they are better or more worthy in the eyes of God or the people because of race and skin color i think history has very sad pages about these issues. But this isnt always against people who are dark skinned i mean a couple of moths ago i think france's President decided to exile all the gypses out of France and i think it is clearly racial discrimination as well. Also in the time of world war 2 when Hitler decided to exucute pretty much just about everyone who isn't from the Aryan race ( people from north Europe- typicall Blonde hair and Blue eyes) everyone one else was disentitled to be a human being there are plenty more example but that's what i can think of right now- hope you share some if you have as well. :)

2.Gender : This is very common i mean it isn't hard to believe that some men can treat a dog better than they treat the person who is supposed to be the closest to them that is their own wifes. Many people used ecomnomic reasons for an argument as to why they prefer men over women but i dont think that counts at all it's baseless. Some thing that is very interesting that many women don't really see as discrimination is the way they are being valued by their bodies - i mean really howcome the woman has to show every single part of her body for some men to give her respect but on the man's watch he isn't really forced to do anthing at all because in both ways he knows that he will never get affected , it will always be the woman that has to carry the burden of everything- i hope i'm not being biased but that's from my observation and another interesting thing is how some communities openly speak about their hatred for females, but what is rather shocking to me is that there are many females that i have met who hate their female sisters in humanity and prefer males over them as children sad but true.- i hope that made sense :)

3.Religous- sayings like - My religion is better than yours, We are going to Heaven and You guys are Hell dwellers... wtc i think from an islamic point of view is wrong because the Quran says
-To me is my religion and to you is yours.
- We will not be asked about your deeds nor will you be asked about ours.
- Say Allahum you are the one who judges You servants in what ( the different issues regarding religion) they used to dispute in.

this is from my short knowldge.
Cultural - Making fun of people because of their culture is one that is mainly used in the west - correct me if iam wrong but yeah again from my simple experience they make fum of you if you are Hindu,Bhuddast, Muslim.. etc anything but not a white christian or some one who doesnt flow with our modern daily secular way of life. thing like ew you smell like curry and what not , or you hairy arabs .. etc
only shows how some people are really careless of other people's feelings

Height- well this is something that is happening nowaday and many people who suffer from it may even think about suicide you know if someone is over 6 ft everyone just starts staring at them and saying oh you look like a circus freak - not funny very offensive :(
also if you're your below 5ft they all start calling you a midget.

Weight- Many people are suffering this everyone just starts calling them names just because of their weight and they make people feel terrible because some times it's not really that persons fault i mean i think they feel bad enough about it no need to make it worse by throwing in hateful comment or scoffing at them just because a person didnt go through this doesnt give them the right to make fun of people i mean sometimes it's not even that person's fault its mainly from their genes and things like that.

Beauty discrimination - i dont know about you guys but honestly ever since i was little i kept running into these types of people who will accept your skin color,..etc as long as you beautifull externaly ofcourse and it's sickening because i have to be fair ive met people who are dark skinned but they can treat a girl who is white and lets say for example she has red hair and green eyes with some freckles - in the most terrible way just because she doesnt look like America's next top Model- Sure nowadays sayings like You are beautifull no matter what they say, Love the skin you're in , and Beauty is in the eye of the beholder is very inspiring but never less this is annother common type of discrimination today we see that has a big affect in our Global society because many people are ready to disentitle you as a human being if they dont like the way you look.

There are plenty more ofcourse
But about that i think these discriminations are a big cause of injustice to our planet people get away with their crime because they're too beautifull , too rich , have a high social status and what not

Of course it is very sad to say that many people in this planet know exactly how to destruct you from outside and they know exactly how to lead you to suicide if you are not what they want

All i have to say is Alhamdulilah found Islam
:) hope you contribute more and more hope what i said also made some sense :)

[Who Am I?]

The only thing I can add right now is that I try to judge people on how they treat me and how they react towards me, not by what they look like, etc. If you respect me, I will treat you in kind. Do me wrong, and I ignore you at best.

By the way, racial discrimination is not necessarily limited to black vs. white. As an example I use the Irish and the English. They've hated each other for centuries yet they are both white. In fact, the English used to call the Irish by the same derogatory term normally used to describe black people. They thought of the Irish as a lesser race even though they are both white.

[May Ayob]

By the way, racial discrimination is not necessarily limited to black vs. white. As an example I use the Irish and the English. They've hated each other for centuries yet they are both white. In fact, the English used to call the Irish by the same derogatory term normally used to describe black people. They thought of the Irish as a lesser race even though they are both white.

Salaam bro , thank you for your reply, yes i agree there are many example where it isnt the Black vs the White , pretty sad but yeah happens almost every where. thank you for the information i didnt know that.

[Revert 2010]

Salaam sister, I think discrimination in any form is down to lack of understanding and also fear. If people dislike me because of my skin colour then I don't think they are worth knowing to begin with. I like to look for a persons character and attitude to life before their race,gender etc, the best way to combat this is living by ones Islamic values and living ones life to fullest.

[Who Am I?]

Salaam bro , thank you for your reply, yes i agree there are many example where it isnt the Black vs the White , pretty sad but yeah happens almost every where. thank you for the information i didnt know that.

Well as I've said in other threads, I am a history nerd. That was my specialty in school. The only course I didn't skip or sleep through. ;D

Anyway, keep your head up and worry not about what others think of you. Easier said than done I know, especially when those in question are the ones you care about. I am dealing with that right now to an extent. This world is only temporary, and all else shall pass.

[May Ayob]

Salaam sister, I think discrimination in any form is down to lack of understanding and also fear. If people dislike me because of my skin colour then I don't think they are worth knowing to begin with. I like to look for a persons character and attitude to life before their race,gender etc, the best way to combat this is living by ones Islamic values and living ones life to fullest.

Thank you both , very apreciated as i said before i'm pretty thankfull for the way i am i wouldnt prefer to be any better but yeah , i hope we can make a difference because we muslims are obliged to speak and stand for justice even if we have to sacrifice things that we see as important - thanks for your support

[al yunan]

Walaikum Assalam sister,

The prophet s.a.w Inshallah said "He who seperates people in layers his heart, creates therein a home for Iblis" (not ad verbum).

Masalam

[Who Am I?]

Thank you both , very apreciated as i said before i'm pretty thankfull for the way i am i wouldnt prefer to be any better but yeah , i hope we can make a difference because we muslims are obliged to speak and stand for justice even if we have to sacrifice things that we see as important - thanks for your support

If you're happy with the way you are, then you have already won half of the battle. I' m not there yet, but inshallah I will be one day.

[ardianto]

:sl:

If government give privilege to some people and make restriction to other people, is it a discrimination ?.

Depend on the case and depend on the reason. If this discrimination is based on the good intention like help the weak, it's not wrong. In example, there is a country which the people are consist of two ethnic, A and B. Ethnic A people are poor and low educated, ethnic B people are rich and well educated. Is it wrong if government give free study facility only to students from ethnic A and obligate students from ethnic B to pay study cost ?.

I don't think it's wrong, because government make this 'discrimination' based on the good intention, to help the weak strengthen themselves. But of course, a 'good discrimination' like this cannot be implemented forever, but must temporary. After people of ethnic A have been strong like ethnic B, government must stop their privilege.

[May Ayob]

If government give privilege to some people and make restriction to other people, is it a discrimination ?. Depend on the case and depend on the reason. If this discrimination is based on the good intention like help the weak, it's not wrong. In example, there is a country which the people are consist of two ethnic, A and B. Ethnic A people are poor and low educated, ethnic B people are rich and well educated. Is it wrong if government give free study facility only to students from ethnic A and obligate students from ethnic B to pay study cost ?. I don't think it's wrong, because government make this 'discrimination' based on the good intention, to help the weak strengthen themselves. But of course, a 'good discrimination' like this cannot be implemented forever, but must temporary. After people of ethnic A have been strong like ethnic B, government must stop their privilege.

Salaam

Well i think you didnt understand what i was trying to say, if the government give group A this privilage it is not discrimination it is the government doing its duty and that is the right of the people in group A to get good education just as everyone else does. This is from my short knowledge and God knows best

Salaam

[May Ayob]

Walaikum Assalam sister, The prophet s.a.w Inshallah said "He who seperates people in layers his heart, creates therein a home for Iblis" (not ad verbum). Masalam

Thank you for the reply but what does "the prophet s.a.w Inshallah" mean? is it not an authentic hadeeth?

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

If government give privilege to some people and make restriction to other people, is it a discrimination ?.

Depend on the case and depend on the reason. If this discrimination is based on the good intention like help the weak, it's not wrong. In example, there is a country which the people are consist of two ethnic, A and B. Ethnic A people are poor and low educated, ethnic B people are rich and well educated. Is it wrong if government give free study facility only to students from ethnic A and obligate students from ethnic B to pay study cost ?.

I don't think it's wrong, because government make this 'discrimination' based on the good intention, to help the weak strengthen themselves. But of course, a 'good discrimination' like this cannot be implemented forever, but must temporary. After people of ethnic A have been strong like ethnic B, government must stop their privilege.

There is a system like that in place here in the United States, and some have called it a form of reverse discrimination. The argument is that the government is offering grants to certain minority groups while excluding students from richer families who mainly happen to be white. This has led to a demographic shift in the US college student population. I read something the other day that more minorities from lower class families are getting into high-level universities than ever before, and some rich white families are upset about it.

I've always thought that they should just drop all the grants and pick students based on who is the best qualified, but I suppose that makes too much sense. I think it sucks that you have to pay for your own education anyway.

[al yunan]

Thank you for the reply but what does "the prophet s.a.w Inshallah" mean? is it not an authentic hadeeth?

It was a custom of Imam Malik rahimullah to say so and as I was also not witness for me it's best to say "Inshallah" out of respect and to be safe.

[May Ayob]

I guess not many people are interested in this topic, thats sad :( although i thought it was an important issue but no problem :)

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I guess not many people are interested in this topic, thats sad although i thought it was an important issue but no problem

I'm very interested in this topic..... it is a very important issue. Perhaps one of the most important. I just prefer to hear the views of others, sit back and listen.

I thought the points that you raised were very thought-provoking.... and inshallah, I shall comment upon those points when I get the time.

[May Ayob]

I'm very interested in this topic..... it is a very important issue. Perhaps one of the most important. I just prefer to hear the views of others, sit back and listen. I thought the points that you raised were very thought-provoking.... and inshallah, I shall comment upon those points when I get the time.

Salaam sister
Thank you soo much for your reply , you are sooooo nice , I love you !
IT actaully brings happiness into my heart when someone replies.
May Allah bless you and give happiness just as you gave me , if you were infront of me i would have given you a big hug and a kiss on the cheek !

Salaam

[Who Am I?]

As sister Flame said, it is an important topic. I've already commented so I don't have much else to add at this time. I want to sit back and let others speak.

[Just_A_Girl13]

I guess not many people are interested in this topic, thats sad although i thought it was an important issue but no problem

Salam sister,

I'm interested! I find that more often than racial discrimination, I have encountered anti-Islamic sentiments from members of the community when I am among my Muslim friends. As you can imagine many ignorant people make remarks about terrorism, the hijab and the like because they don't understand Islam. It makes me sad. I usually try to correct people when the opportunity arises, but as I'm sure you are already aware, there are those who refuse to listen. Inshallah one day they will learn what a beautiful and peaceful religion Islam really is :)

[Who Am I?]

Salam sister,

I'm interested! I find that more often than racial discrimination, I have encountered anti-Islamic sentiments from members of the community when I am among my Muslim friends. As you can imagine many ignorant people make remarks about terrorism, the hijab and the like because they don't understand Islam. It makes me sad. I usually try to correct people when the opportunity arises, but as I'm sure you are already aware, there are those who refuse to listen. Inshallah one day they will learn what a beautiful and peaceful religion Islam really is :)

That is an issue I am dealing as well from members of my own family. I've decided not to tell my family when I take shahada, and let my actions and attitude be my testimony. Hopefully they will notice that I have changed for the better and when they mention it, I can tell them about Islam.

I also pray daily that Allah will guide my parents and help them to understand and appreciate my decision, inshallah.

[Perseveranze]

No Muslim should ever even think of doing it. Allah(swt) makes this extremely clear -

"O' mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Indeed the most honourable of you in the sight of Allaah is the one with the most piety" (Surah Al-Hujjarat 49:13)

May Allah(swt) rightously guide the Ummah.

[May Ayob]

No Muslim should ever even think of doing it. Allah(swt) makes this extremely clear - "O' mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Indeed the most honourable of you in the sight of Allaah is the one with the most piety" (Surah Al-Hujjarat 49:13) May Allah(swt) rightously guide the Ummah.

Salaam Jazak Allhu khairan this Aya is very releiving and it give hope to the people out there that are being hurt by prejudice.

[May Ayob]

Salam sister, I'm interested! I find that more often than racial discrimination, I have encountered anti-Islamic sentiments from members of the community when I am among my Muslim friends. As you can imagine many ignorant people make remarks about terrorism, the hijab and the like because they don't understand Islam. It makes me sad. I usually try to correct people when the opportunity arises, but as I'm sure you are already aware, there are those who refuse to listen. Inshallah one day they will learn what a beautiful and peaceful religion Islam really is

Thank you sister May Allah Guide you and make you one of those whom He loves.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

Sister, you have probably highlighted the major areas where people can discriminate.....

1.Racial Dicrimination:

World history contains plenty of examples that are proof of how a man thinks he is better than another because of his color. People have been treated like animals and turned into slaves simply because of their skin color.

This sort of discrimination is largely due to ignorance and pride.

2.Gender :

Men thinking that they are better than women......

Women thinking they are better than men!

3.Religous- sayings like - My religion is better than yours

A big one. Can start a separate discussion thread on just this topic alone. How wrong it is to think that one is better than a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu simply because he is a Muslim. It is certainly wrong because it causes a person to look down upon people of other faiths. This is certainly not what Islam teaches. Non-Muslims must be treated with every bit of respect and courtesy.

Cultural

Because people are set in their ways, they cannot see beyond what they are accustomed to. They thus begin to scorn and show ridicule towards things that are not done their way.

Height

Men who are proud of their height and who want to marry women who would look good next to them. I've come across those kind. Women who look down upon other women because they are taller and make better models.

Weight-

Laughing at people because they are overweight, calling them names. Not caring to understand that perhaps they might have a medical condition that prevents them from losing weight. Whatever the case, making fun of others because they are too thin or too fat or because they don't look like the model shown on the magazine.... it's all discrimination.... having just one standard and scorning and ridiculing anything that doesn't come close to that standard.

Beauty discrimination

How many are there who have let their good looks go to their heads and become vain? Seeing everybody else as inferior to themselves? Sheer ignorance, it is! Why won't they stop to consider that they did not make themselves!!

To add to the above list, sister..... here's one more:

KNOWLEDGE.

People who think they know better than others. People who believe they are superior because they have got this degree or studied at this university or been a student of such and such Islamic academy. People who think that they are better than others because they have more knowledge. Or because they can speak Arabic so well or because they recite the Qur'an so beautifully. When they think in such a way, they begin to show disrespect towards those who may know less. They may even begin to show-off. This is all because of discrimination. Assigning a superior position to oneself and a lower one to others.

That's the reason why Islam is the best religion. It teaches us that all people are equal. The only person who is better than another is he who is better in righteousness and good manners. Not because of his color, race, wealth, gender, religion, beauty or knowledge.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

[Salahudeen]

I'd like to bring what I think is an interesting point into the discussion, is it still discrimination/racism if you have a certan preferance? Say for example a white woman has a preference to only marry a asian man, so she rejects proposals from every other race because of her preference, is this considered discrimination?

Or what if a father has a preference that only an asian man should marry his daughter, this is his preference, he doesn't believe asians are better or anything, he just simply prefers that an asian man marries his daughter as he feels this would be a more suitable match, so he rejects proposals from every other race, white,black, chinese etc.

What are your thoughts on this? Is there a difference between having a preference and discrimination? Some may say the man who rejects every race for his daughter except his own, is racist, even though its his preference to have an asian marry his daughter and doesn't look down upon or consider asians any better. This is just his preference cos he believes they will be a more suitable match in terms of language/culture/cooking/food/clothing and other things etc.

would like to hear thoughts on this because I've encountered this many times, people having preferences that seem to be discriminating against other people however they say this is their preference and there's nothing wrong with preferring one thing over another as long as it's halal.

[Who Am I?]

I'd like to bring what I think is an interesting point into the discussion, is it still discrimination/racism if you have a certan preferance? Say for example a white woman has a preference to only marry a asian man, so she rejects proposals from every other race because of her preference, is this considered discrimination?

Or what if a father has a preference that only an asian man should marry his daughter, this is his preference, he doesn't believe asians are better or anything, he just simply prefers that an asian man marries his daughter as he feels this would be a more suitable match, so he rejects proposals from every other race, white,black, chinese etc.

What are your thoughts on this? Is there a difference between having a preference and discrimination? Some may say the man who rejects every race for his daughter except his own, is racist, even though its his preference to have an asian marry his daughter and doesn't look down upon or consider asians any better. This is just his preference cos he believes they will be a more suitable match in terms of language/culture/cooking/food/clothing and other things etc.

would like to hear thoughts on this because I've encountered this many times, people having preferences that seem to be discriminating against other people however they say this is their preference and there's nothing wrong with preferring one thing over another as long as it's halal.

In my past, I have pursued all types of women. White, black, Asian, Latina, Arab. I have no preference when it comes to women. A beautiful woman is beautiful no matter what color her skin is.

That being said, I once dated a Costa Rican girl who told me that she would prefer to marry a Latin guy. Being a white guy myself, I knew right then that I had very little chance of having a real relationship with her, and sure enough, it ended soon after. I understood the significance of her comment, but it still hurt a little.

Where I live, there are still a lot of people who are against interracial marriages. It is becoming more accepted than it used to be, but that change has come slowly and at a price.

Different people have different preferences. I don't think that is discrimination; it just means that you have different tastes than I do. We're all different and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

is it still discrimination/racism if you have a certan preferance?

I don't think it is discrimination or racism to have a certain preference. It's just an expression of what you would like more in a life partner.

But as Muslims, I think it's better to say "Allah knows better who would be good for me...." and keep one's eyes and mind wide open to whoever Allah sends you.

[Revert 2010]

Salaam, I think that it becomes racial when a person parents pick a certain race for their child because their culture dictates this and not Islam and a person does not have a choice is that not haraam?? Did the prophet(pbuh) not warn against discrimination within the Ummah When he gave his last khutbah.

[Flame of Hope]

Salaam, I think that it becomes racial when a person parents pick a certain race for their child because their culture dictates this and not Islam and a person does not have a choice is that not haraam?? Did the prophet(pbuh) not warn against discrimination within the Ummah When he gave his last khutbah.

:wa:

You have a point. But let's say this has to do with people's level of iman. Those with strong iman wouldn't be picky or fussy. Those with weak iman would have all sorts of preferences.

There are reasons why people marry.... they may marry for wealth, status, culture... have preferences for race and color even. But one must marry not for these considerations..... the sunnah is to marry for the sake of religion.

So it's alright if people have preferences and are picky about their choices. It isn't haraam. But it does show that they prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter.

[Who Am I?]

I'm not sure I will ever be married, and I'm starting to become OK with that. My situation dictates that it probably won't happen, but as long as I can keep a good relationship with Allah, that's all I need.

Or at least that's what I keep telling myself...

[May Ayob]

I'd like to bring what I think is an interesting point into the discussion, is it still discrimination/racism if you have a certan preferance?

Salaam I will give you a hadeeth insha allah the prophet PBUH said: There is no prefernce of an arab over a non-arab except with Taqwa, Nor is there a prefernce of a non-arab over an arab except with Taqwa; Same with There is no prefernce of a white over a black Nor is there prefernce of a black over a white except with Taqwa"

I think it is pretty clear that No one should ever think because this guy/girl is european or asian or african or whatever that they will suit them best. Race does not equal compatability.
The man in my point of view is completely mistaken and is looking at things the wrong way. I know that a long time that ive read a hadeeth that said that the Father of Alsayidah Kadijah wanted to reject the prophet PBUH proposal because he was an orphan isnt this prefernce? is it right? No it doesnt make it right all.

In my point of view Prefernce is the number 1 cause of discrimantion and God knows best but , i do acknowledge that is one thing to say to some body - sorry i cant marry you and it is another to say the former and insult them because of something that is out of their hands.

Salaam

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

In my point of view Prefernce is the number 1 cause of discrimantion and God knows best but , i do acknowledge that is one thing to say to some body - sorry i cant marry you and it is another to say the former and insult them because of something that is out of their hands.

I agree with you. Showing preference is bad manners. That sort of behavior can hurt others much and you're right in saying that it's tantamount to insulting people. I think it is a form of discrimination. Discrimination that is veiled.... However, I think it becomes a problem only when people openly declare their preferences. It's okay to prefer to marry a pretty girl who is pious than an ugly one who is also pious. One just need not say it out loud because this would hurt people's feelings.

It's better to keep your preferences to yourself.

[May Ayob]

than an ugly one who is also pious.

See honey , this is wrong God almighty never creates somethings that is ugly , non of God creatures especially human beings are ugly. i am sorry but i have to disagree with you.Also as long as she is pious no one should ever criticise her or try publicly embarass her.
Piety is what matters
I will share with you a hadeeth the prophet PBUH insh Allah said - God does not regard you with your apearances, nor with you possesions but rather he regards you with your actions and that which is inside of your heart. :)
salaam

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

See honey , this is wrong God almighty never creates somethings that is ugly , non of God creatures especially human beings are ugly. i am sorry but i have to disagree with you.Also as long as she is pious no one should ever criticise her or try publicly embarass her.

I think you may not have understood my point. I was speaking in reference to what people might prefer. I was merely giving an example.

I don't think anyone is ugly but there are people who do.

People do have their preferences. I just think that they should keep it to themselves.

I also think it's important to be careful when we discuss people's preferences lest we ourselves fall into the trap of discrimination.

People have a right to choose who they want to marry. Parents have the right to select who they want their children to marry. One should respect their right to do so.

I don't think it's right to criticize anyone who has preferences. And I always prefer to give people the benefit of doubt than condemn them for not conforming to a certain standard of behavior.

[Who Am I?]

There is nothing wrong with having preferences. It doesn't make you a bad person. If every guy wanted the same women (and if the opposite case were true), most of us would be out of luck.

[May Ayob]

I also think it's important to be careful when we discuss people's preferences lest we ourselves fall into the trap of discrimination.

Salaam sister, um yes i admit that maybe i havent understood what you are trying to say. but you kind of gave me the impression that i am a person who doesnt have good opinion about people , and watch out before you fall into the same mistake. look i know that i am not a scholar i am your simple muslim and i am weak and i do everday mistakes just because i said something is wrong to me doesnt mean that i am claiming to perfect. Also i know maybe i'm some what stubborn about my views but i am still a humanbeing and if there is something wrong that i do or say then i still ask Allah swt to guide me into leaving it.
I dont mean to offend you and if i did then i am sorry and i take back every word i said.
Salaam

[Salahudeen]

Salaam I will give you a hadeeth insha allah the prophet PBUH said: There is no prefernce of an arab over a non-arab except with Taqwa, Nor is there a prefernce of a non-arab over an arab except with Taqwa; Same with There is no prefernce of a white over a black Nor is there prefernce of a black over a white except with Taqwa"

I think it is pretty clear that No one should ever think because this guy/girl is european or asian or african or whatever that they will suit them best. Race does not equal compatability.
The man in my point of view is completely mistaken and is looking at things the wrong way. I know that a long time that ive read a hadeeth that said that the Father of Alsayidah Kadijah wanted to reject the prophet PBUH proposal because he was an orphan isnt this prefernce? is it right? No it doesnt make it right all.

In my point of view Prefernce is the number 1 cause of discrimantion and God knows best but , i do acknowledge that is one thing to say to some body - sorry i cant marry you and it is another to say the former and insult them because of something that is out of their hands.

Salaam

I'm aware of the hadith sister however it's irrelevant to my original question because a person can have a certain preference to marry a particular race even though he believes all races are equal. We all agree that every race is equal in the sight of Allah and no race is better, however what's wrong with having a preference to marry a particular race? that's not being racist/discriminating is it?

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

You're right it is a preference and some preferences are not right, for example if you have a preference for another race because you believe that race is better then this is wrong preference.

I think it's dangerous to take away people's preferences, because not everybody is the same, some men have preference for fat girl other men have preference for skinny girl, some women have preference for guy who talks a lot, other women have preference for guy who is quiet.

These are all valid preferences aren't they? It's not discrimination if a person has these preferences, similarly I don't believe it's discrimination to have a preference for a certain race or family.

To further elaborate, if you were looking to get married, what type of guy would you look for? the answer to this question would be your preference. You may say piety, however I mean in terms of personality, i.e funny, confident, quiet, shy, talkative, beard, good dress sense, can hold a conversation, good manners, nice hair style, fat, skinny, short hair, long hair, complexion, type of family they come from, their job, their education.

These are all examples of preferences that a person can have, what's wrong with having them?

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

Very good point, brother. Parents may not want a person of another race or culture because they may feel it would be difficult to adjust to the differences. It is easier to choose a person who belongs to the same race, speaks the same language and has the same culture. They may be concerned about making things easier for their children and themselves by such a preference.

One can't categorize everything under one blanket. Circumstances are unique from individual to individual. Personalities also differ. People have likes and dislikes. Hence, I don't think there's anything wrong with having preferences... preferring a partner who can cook versus one who can't, for example. A partner who is good-looking versus one who isn't.... one has to live all his life with his partner, so there isn't anything wrong if one desires to marry someone who is pleasing to look at. Preferring a person who has a sense of humor versus one who is always serious and strict. These are all choices.

I guess a preference becomes discriminatory when one begins to assign a position of superiority to it. Like preferring a partner who is white because one believes that whites are the better race...

As long as one does not indulge in such sort of thinking, having preferences is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

[May Ayob]

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

Salaam brother, Are you sure that race equals compatibility lets say your an arab , and you married a white woman, what would you say if a black man asked the hand of you daughter?
I would want to see your answer cause from what you have written to me it appears that you will reject simply on the basis on his skin color. I am black , I am african and honestly i became very over sensitive over the years when it comes to people and getting their feelings hurt. i would also like to share a story that is in Islamic traditon i read a time ago :
About sayidna Abd ullah ibn Mubarak
He used to work as gardner for a man and this man was a welathy man that had a beautiful daughter , many men from presitigous background have made proposals to her and the man came to consult sayedna Abdullah ibn Mubarak- Father-.
The man asked him whom should he give his daughter to , Sayedna Abdullah ibn Mubarak's father said to him
The Jews used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the Wealthiest.
The Christians used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the most Handsome.
An the Arabs used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the most prestigous tribes.
Now these are all Culture and Society Eh??
But look at what he said - BUT the Prophet PBUH and his companions used to give the hand if their daughters in marriage to the one with best manners and best Deen.
The wise man decided to give Mubarak - The father of sayedna AbdullAllah ibn Mubarak the honor of marrying his one and only beautiful daughter :) __ This is what Islam says.
It is Not relevant to go and say well prefernces are okay so what i want a rich handosme guy to boast about or i want this stunning looking women. This is not in Islam and that is all that matters there are many verses in the Quran that say Even marry a slave who is abeliver than marry a hansome man / or a woman.

No where brothers and sister did i say that you have to choose the same person No where and if i did then please qoute because i would like to take that back.
You , Me and anybody else fanatasies about you future spouse have no significnace in islam, it is one thing to say that islam says no problem with marrying a person of your prefernce and it is another to go out saying that Islam discourages honorable marriages based on character to protect you own fears. - i hope i made my point clear.

Salaam

[Salahudeen]

Salaam brother, Are you sure that race equals compatibility lets say your an arab , and you married a white woman, what would you say if a black man asked the hand of you daughter?
I would want to see your answer cause from what you have written to me it appears that you will reject simply on the basis on his skin color. I am black , I am african and honestly i became very over sensitive over the years when it comes to people and getting their feelings hurt.

Yes I'm sure in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility for example a person who is asian and can only speak urdu isn't exactly compatible with a person who can only speak spanish. Also a person from asian race who is pakistani or indian will have more in common with another pakistani/indian rather then with a white/black/chinese person who isn't Pakistani. If you want examples of things they'd have in common I can give you them.

And cos they have these things in common with each other they'll have a better understanding of each other as they both experienced similar life styles and grew up in similar environments. Their families will have more in common with each other, the in laws will have more in common with the person their daughter/son married if it's same race.

For example some parents can only speak urdu so if their son or daughter married someone from a different race who didn't speak urdu then they wouldn't even be able to communicate with him. Can you imagine the frustration of your daughter/son marrying some 1 you can't even communicate with? what if there arose problems in the marriage you wouldn't even be able to govern affairs because the person doesn't understand you because he's from another race and speaks another language.

The wali might also refuse cos of the fact he can't communicate with the man cos he's from a difference race and doesn't speak the language and as a result can't ascertain what kind of character he has. So he has a preference for someone from the same race to marry his daughter so he can at least communicate with the person and see what kind of person he is etc

I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu :) I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? I imagine he will find it quite uncomfortable at family gatherings when he is the only black person there who can't understand a word being said and people are talking/addressing him and he just looks at them lost while they talk urdu to him. He will probably never want to come to family gatherings ever again and just drop her off and go back home because he can't stand the boredom of sitting and mixing in a room full of people who he doesn't understand.

Also I believe a person similar to my daughter will be more compatible and a person from her own race would be more compatible with her cos of the things they have in common for example growing up in similar environments, having similar parents, enjoying the same food, having families that can communicate with each other cos they speak the same language. Of course I do not look down upon black people or any other race or think of them as inferior, this is just my preference and I have my reasons. Allah will not tell me I'm racist cos I wanted some 1 to marry my daughter who was similar to her in certain aspects.

However if I wanted someone someone similar to marry her because I believed her race was better then this would be racism.

I can't imagine many men letting their daughters marry some 1 who can't even speak with them.

Now all that being said it doesn't mean I am against inter racial marriages or look down upon them, if somebody wants to do this then alhamdulilah there is nothing wrong with it, if they think they will both be compatible its very good however equally you can't label the person who has a preference as racist.Becase he also has his reasons for having such preferences.

I don't think you understood the examples I gave about preferences in the previous post properly, just because a person has a prefrence it doesn't mean they are discriminating/racist as in the examples I gave above show.

I think it really depends on each situation and to apply a generalization and say all people who have preferences are discriminating/racist is not correct because every situation is unique and has different factors that need to be taken into account.

For example in another situation there could be another pakistani family who have all forgotten their language and only speak english, this family probably wouldn't mind having someone from a different race who can't speak urdu cos it makes no difference.

But saying that, I know of families where inter racial marriages did occur and there was a language barrier and the in laws had nothing in common with their son in law and could not speak with him however they didn't mind as long as he took care of their daughter properly so again it all depends on the individuals involved and how they are and what they think would be a compatible match for their daughter/son it's impossible to apply a general ruling to every situation that arises because every situation is unique and varies according to the people involved and their reasons for the views they hold.

[Who Am I?]

Salahudeen brings up some good points about language barriers and communication. There is nothing racist about anything you said, brother. It makes perfect sense to me.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I think it really depends on each situation and to apply a generalization and say all people who have preferences are discriminating/racist is not correct because every situation is unique and has different factors that need to be taken into account.

Good observations....

I've never liked generalizations. I think it's unfair to generalize.

[Salahudeen]

:sl:



Good observations....

I've never liked generalizations. I think it's unfair to generalize.

I think people apply generalizations to people with preferences when the preference they have goes against them. For example a woman might have a preference for a man who is slim and not overweight, so she discards a proposal from every man who is overweight, as a result of this preference she has, every over weight person will say "man that girl is shallow all she cares about is weight" so the generalization is all people who have a preference for a certain body type are labelled as shallow by all the people who are over weight and can't meet that preference. And this is true as well, if you say I don't want an over weight person, the person who is over weight will say "you're shallow" because unfortunately he is often the victim of this preference that people have so he has to justify to himself that there's something wrong with people who have this desire when in actual fact there's nothing wrong with not wanting some 1 who is over weight.

When people have preferences that we can't meet we feel hurt and feel the need to label them as something.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I think people apply generalizations to people with preferences when the preference they have goes against them. For example a woman might have a preference for a man who is slim and not overweight, so she discards a proposal from every man who is overweight, as a result of this preference she has, every over weight person will say "man that girl is shallow all she cares about his weight" so the generalization is all people who have a preference for a certain body type are labelled as shallow by all the people who are over weight and can't meet that preference.

When people have preferences that we can't meet we feel hurt and feel the need to label them as something.

I like your observations. There is much wisdom and truth in what you say. Alhamdulillah!

[Rhubarb Tart]

:sl:

I would say parent who have particular “preference” to a particular race or colour is a racist.

They should care about the person character and whether or not they can communicate with that person. Race or colour should not be issue because they are not the one that will spend rest of their lives with that person! They are not the one that sleeps in the same bed as that person! They are not the ones that will have children with that person!

These so called preferences are the very reason why so many revert brothers and sisters cannot find a wife or husband especially true for white brothers and black sisters.

Only the sister or the brother who will marry that person should have the ones to have preferences of colour or race because it may link to attraction!

What if parents have preference for their daughter to marry within their family only? Is that acceptable? No it is not! So for a parent to have preferences of race or colour is not acceptable under any circumstances. The only acceptable reason I can find is communication other than that there is none! Let gets this straight, I know parents that can communicate with that person but yet they think it is acceptable to refuse them because of their race or colour!

If this so called preference from parents is acceptable then why is that a sister can change her wali under Islamic law if they refused the person for non valid reason? Colour and race unless it links to communication is a non valid reason.

Yet in advise and support section or family section, we tell our brothers and sisters who were refused or their potential were refused for something they have no choice in (colour/race), we tell them it is wrong and it shouldn’t happen? Then, is it not wrong for parents to have particular preference of colour or race?

So unless it is do with communication, under any other circumstance it is wrong for parent to have preferences of race or colour! That is down to their sons or daughter. I know read experience from a white brother in another forum (ummah) about how he used get hugs and salams from Somali brothers. So he wanted to marry one Somali sister and she asked her parents. One day, those so called Muslim brothers had a ‘family meeting’ and told that girl that they would rather have her marry a drunken Somali then white brother! The sister told him she cannot marry him. These so called ‘Muslims’ still have the audacity to give the same brother they refused hugs and salams! They are hypocrites! Preferences have been used way too many times to discriminate against reverts and other Muslims.

We are hypocrites, saying salaam to white, black brothers and sisters yet some of you would rather see yourself drop dead then to have your daughter or family member marry them!

Fine! If you think it okay for parents to have these preferences other than language and use them as a justification to refuse potential for their daughters. Then don’t say Salam to these brothers and sisters because that it what hurts them the most, your hypocrisy and two faced attitude!

As for having similar background? Huh? Even if that person is brought up in the same tribe as me, he will still have completely different upbringing and outlook because our parents are not the same. This argument is used from racist parents and it is weak as hell.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Funny how people from Indian subcontinent complain about their mistreatment in Saudi Arabia or any other Arab countries but they have the audacity to treat blacks or people with darker skin then them as a piece of dirt. They would rather run around naked then to have a black person in their family. The same people don’t mind having their male relative marry a white sister but rather kill themselves then to see their female relative marry a white brother. Of course it is not all but some people. I find it amusing.

Imagine how the white brother feel when the day he reverted, all those men were pleased and hugging him etc. But to find later on, these same men who were hugging would never let him marry their daughter and would rather have non practicing person from the same background!


I would love us to show our true faces to reverts and other muslims before we hurt them like that.

[Who Am I?]

As a white brother myself, I find that... disturbing.

But then I don't plan to marry anytime soon. I have enough problems to worry about and I can't ask any sister to share them.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Thanks for the discussion very interesting :)

Discrimination and prejudice comes in many subtle and not so subtle forms.

Heres a famous sketch, its quite funny but is also making a point about (in this case) cultural prejudices.

Go For an English - Goodness Gracious Me

[Salahudeen]

I think we should differentiate between people who have a preference because they believe their race is better and people who have a preference for other reasons.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

If a person doesn't believe the above are they still classed as racist even though they believe all are equal and none is better? but they have preferences. That's the core of the issue I think.

If a person believes all are equal before God in his heart, but has a preference is he racist? Even though in his heart he has no hatred towards any race or thinks of them as inferior. Is he classed as racist because of his preference regardless of what he believes in his heart?

[al yunan]

[quote=Salahudeen;1446216]I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? {/quote]

Salam Brother S,

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.
Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ?
Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard.
Now ?
What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone !
May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ?
Twice ?
This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again.
I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers!
I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways.

Masalam

[Salahudeen]

[QUOTE=al yunan;1446446]

I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? {/quote]

Salam Brother S,

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.
Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ?
Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard.
Now ?
What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone !
May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ?
Twice ?
This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again.
I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers!
I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways.

Masalam

On what basis do you say I'm racist? when did I say I believe, my race is superior or better than anyone elses? Isn't that racism? I don't believe that, so how am I racist?

what exactly did I say that was so hurtful and warrents an apology? what shall I apologize for? believing someone isn't racist if they believe all are equal but have preferences due to reasons we might not be aware of? And what's all this about comparing country's Islamic history? what has that got to do with anything? I didn't reply to her salam because I didn't see it.

I've read back my posts, as an ethnic Spaniard and German, what's your point? I'm not promoting nationalism or saying inter racial marriages are a bad thing, I'm saying every situation is unique and we can't judge every person with a preference as racist because we don't know his reasons. Just as I gave the example of why I'd have a preference for a person of my own nationality, so that they would be able to communicate with my family and as a result, I believe be more compatible with me, what's wrong with that? Is that racist according to you? Having a preference for someone who speaks the same language as your family?

I'd appreciate it if you showed me where I was racist, I don't recall saying any race is superior to another, in case you misunderstood me, I meant there may be understandable reasons as to why people don't want to marry outside their own race, the language/culture issue being one of them. Now what is racist about that? did I at all say asian pakistani's are superior to black people? Nope, I simply raised the issue of compatibility in certain area's, the same issue might exist for a black person, he might refuse asian Pakistani/indian people because they can't communicate with his family etc and it's his preference that the person he marries can communicate with his family so he disregards proposals from all asian Pakistani/indian people due to this preference he has.

If you think that is Racism then I think somewhere along the line you have misunderstood the meaning of the word.

I just noticed you quoted a sentence of mine, are you claiming what I said in that quote is racist? If so what is racist about it? he learn urdu I accept, he don't know urdu I refuse, it so happens that many black people don't know urdu so they'd have communication problems with my family so therefore it's my preference to accept people who speak urdu who happen to be mostly asian pakistani or indian.

I think you're completely missing the point and are quick to label and this is exactly the point I was making earlier, you see the reason of refusal was because the people from that race don't speak the same language so as a result I would refuse, and the issue being the fact they don't speak the same language, not their race or colour, but you, quickly jumped and labelled me as racist.

Similarly an Arab might refuse a non Arab because they have a preference for someone who can speak Arabic and communicate with their family, this doesn't mean they are racist, rather it's an issue of incompatibility in a certain area due to the person being from a different race. Of course if he knew Arabic then the Arab would happily marry etc because their compatibility would increase then.



waslaam.

[May Ayob]

Salam Brother S, I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet. Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ? Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard. Now ? What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone ! May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ? Twice ? This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again. I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers! I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways. Masalam

Salaam
Thank you brother al yunan , i appreciate what you said.
Jazak Allahu khairain , atleast someone here understands what i was trying to say.
Salaam

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salaam
Thank you brother al yunan , i appreciate what you said.
Jazak Allahu khairain , atleast someone here understands what i was trying to say.
Salaam

Sorry sister. I agree with you. I only accept parent rejecting a person if there is no way they can communicate with that person. Hence if they (parents not other family members) cant speak a word of English or common language with that person. Even so, I believe there is always a way peoeple can communicate. Other than that, I think others who can communicate but still reject are racist.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

If you think that is Racism then I think somewhere along the line you have misunderstood the meaning of the word.

Yes, brother Salahudeen. That's what it all is. A complete misunderstanding. I've misunderstood brother al yunan several times too. lol.

His English isn't very good. If he really understood your posts, I don't think he would have said the things he did. So just overlook and forgive.

You are not at all a racist..... and the points you have raised are very interesting, thought-provoking, something to think about and have added more spice to this discussion. You don't owe anyone any apology.

[Salahudeen]

It seems I have been labelled racist and no one has pointed out exactly what I said that was racist, am I not deserving to be notified of my error? If I hold a racist view I'd like to know so I can correct it. JazakAllah khair

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.

I don't think it's fair to accuse brother Salahudeen of being a racist. It's tantamount to passing judgement and being quick to jump to conclusions. Have you forgotten that you ought to look for excuses for your brothers in faith and to think the best of them?

I'm dismayed to hear you criticize him the way you did.

If you have nothing good to say, better not say anything at all.

[Rhubarb Tart]

It seems I have been labelled racist and no one has pointed out exactly what I said that was racist, am I not deserving to be notified of my error? If I hold a racist view I'd like to know so I can correct it. JazakAllah khair

Listen I personally don’t think you are a racist. However I do disagree with you on the matter about rejecting a black brother because he won’t able to communicate with your family member. If the brother is able to communicate with you and your wife (ishallah) who cares about your other family members? Do you think that brother honestly is still going to hang with your other family members regularly? And if there are gatherings, you, your wife (ishallah) and your daughter (ishallah) are there to translate for him.
There is a small exception for parent who cannot communicate with the pontential but other family member?

How do you suppose deaf people communicate? It shouldn’t matter whether he is able to communicate with your other family members. There always will be a way to communicate. It requires all parties to make an effort.

To include other family member into the equation only further discriminate huge range of people (reverts and deaf people).

[Salahudeen]

Listen I personally don’t think you are a racist. However I do disagree with you on the matter about rejecting a black brother because he won’t able to communicate with your family member. If the brother is able to communicate with you and your wife (ishallah) who cares about your other family members? Do you think that brother honestly is still going to hang with your other family members regularly? And if there are gatherings, you, your wife (ishallah) and your daughter (ishallah) are there to translate for him.
There is a small exception for parent who cannot communicate with the pontential but other family member?

How do you suppose deaf people communicate? It shouldn’t matter whether he is able to communicate with your other family members. There always will be a way to communicate. It requires all parties to make an effort.

To include other family member into the equation only further discriminate huge range of people (reverts and deaf people).

Ok, I appreciate your view, and your disagreement is very valid, now the key question is, does having this preference make one racist? Even though the issue is not a race issue it's a language issue. This is what it boils down to, you see people label this as racism when in fact race has nothing to do with it, it's a language/communication issue. I can give another example if you want.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

It seems I have been labelled racist and no one has pointed out exactly what I said that was racist, am I not deserving to be notified of my error? If I hold a racist view I'd like to know so I can correct it. JazakAllah khair

Well, I had my preferences when I wanted to get married. My husband too had preferences. He didn't want to marry a girl from America. He wanted to marry one from Sri Lanka, Trinidad, India..... whereas my preference was to marry a man who came from an English-speaking country..... USA, UK, Australia.

Considering how this discussion is going, I wouldn't be surprised if I was labeled as a racist as well.

And if I was, well.... I don't really care. Allah knows best who is racist and who is not. He knows best who discriminates and who doesn't. To me, that's all that matters.

[Salahudeen]

I'd like to give another example as people are not understanding the language one I think, me being a Pakistani, I love my indian food, Biryani, Samosa, Pakora, Kebab, Ghosht Salun, I absolutely love indian food, so I think to myself,

"hmmm Salahudeen, you know the chances of finding a non indian/pakistani woman who knows how to cook this food are pretty slim"

as a result I tell myself that, I should have a preference for Pakistani/Indian women because they will be more compatible with me in this area, however if it happens that I meet a rare gem who is not from this race/region and knows how to cook this food then I can happily marry her, because me being a Pakistani, I can not live without my indian food.

You see in the above example again, the issue is not race, it's one of compatibility, because I have a preference for asian food it means I will have a preference for a wife who can cook it, who will most likely be from pak/india so I will have a preference for women from this country, if I so happen to meet a woman from another part of the world who can cook this food then alhamdulilah I would happily marry her.

But you see in the above example I had a preference that most likely, only a person from my own race/country would be able to fulfill, therefore I have a preference for women from my own race because of this.

Is that racist then?

[Rhubarb Tart]

Ok, I appreciate your view, and your disagreement is very valid, now the key question is, does having this preference make one racist? Even though the issue is not a race issue it's a language issue.

The language barrier and preferences have used way too many times towards reverts and other muslims.

If the parents in question speak no English/common language and would prefer their children to marry someone who speak the same language, I would not call that racist. However, if the parents (not other family members) can communicate with that person and still has preferences for the potential to be from a particular region/race/colour is a racist. The latter I have heard so many times.

However, if they reject a deaf person because they cannot communicate with them, I would say this is discrimination. There is always a way to communicate with deaf person and some can communicate via lip reading and body language.

The only and essential communication that should matter is between the parents, their children and the potential. The potential can communicate with other family members via parents and their spouse and with time they can learn to speak the language.

Generally the only preference parents should have is character (whether the person is pious) and other preference without valid reason is discriminative.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Anyone can learn to cook though. And just because the woman comes from the same race as you does not mean she can cook or cook as well as your mother for instance! So rejecting someone because you think they wouldn’t be able to cook the food you like (which one can learn from your mother or your relative) is wrong! Speaking of food, I heading off to cook something for myself. So Salam!

[Salahudeen]

The language barrier and preferences have used way too many times towards reverts and other muslims.

That is indeed sad, but do we have the right to label all those families with these preferences as racist? even though the skin colour has nothing to do with it and it's the language barrier that they have a problem with?

If the parents in question speak no English/common language and would prefer their children to marry someone who speak the same language, I would not call that racist. However, if the parents (not other family members) can communicate with that person and still has preferences for the potential to be from a particular region/race/colour is a racist. The latter I have heard so many times.

I agree, and this is the point I was originally making, we should be careful before we label every person who refuses a person from another race as "racist" because we have no idea as to why he has reached the decision he has, the language issue may be one of the reasons, he also may have another reason. But it's wrong for us to label him as racist because of a valid preference he may have such as the language one.

However, if they reject a deaf person because they cannot communicate with them, I would say this is discrimination. There is always a way to communicate with deaf person and some can communicate via lip reading and body language.

That is interesting, but it's aside from the point I was making, that people commonly mistake certain preferences as racial issues when they aren't

Generally the only preference parents should have is character (whether the person is pious) and other preference without valid reason is discriminative.

You say they should only have this preference, but what is there to suggest they can not have other preferences as long as these preferences aren't based upon haraam.

For example it's not haraam to have a preference for a person to speak a common language right? it's not haraam to have a preference for him to want a healthy person for his daughter is it? it's not haraam for him to have a preference to have someone with a beard for his daughter is it? It's not haraam for him to have a preference for someone who is a confident social person is it?

Do you see my point? at what point did we decide what preferences are acceptable and what aren't. You mention other preferences are discriminating without valid reason but I fail to understand how?

aren't our preferences an extension of our desires? so as long as they're not haraam preferences why can't we have them? Why do we need a valid reason to have a preference/desire that is halal to have? This is where I become confused. It's halal to want a good looking guy for your daughter right? equally it's halal to want a not so good looking guy for your daughter right? it's also halal to want a slim guy for your daughter rather than a over weight one right? these are all preferences, and at what point do we say that a person can have these preferences but can't have other preferences because we think they're racist for having them, even though inside their heart they may not be racist at all and look at every one the same and believe all are equal but just want what they believe will be the ideal match for their daughter/son.

Of course the preferences we have should be in accordance with what our daughter/son want, if we have a preference for a slim guy and our daughter wants an over weight guy then we have to accept her preference and reject all slim guys etc. cos if the child gets what he wants in the marriage partner then he/she is more likely to be happy.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

So rejecting someone because you think they wouldn’t be able to cook the food you like (which one can learn from your mother or your relative) is wrong!

How is it wrong? Let's say a man has to make a choice. His choices are:

1. A pious girl who can cook and loves to cook.

2. A pious girl who cannot cook and is not at all interested in cooking.

His preference is number 1. So if he chooses to marry the girl who can cook, how is he wrong? How has he indulged in discrimination?

Care to explain?

[Salahudeen]

Anyone can learn to cook though. And just because the woman comes from the same race as you does not mean she can cook or cook as well as your mother for instance! So rejecting someone because you think they wouldn’t be able to cook the food you like (which one can learn from your mother or your relative) is wrong! Speaking of food, I heading off to cook something for myself. So Salam!

Again you missed the point I was trying to make ukhti, I know that any woman can learn to cook and this is not a sensible reason reason to reject someone but my point was to convey the following, is it haraam or racist to have a preference that someone from your own race/country is more capable of fulfilling then a person from another race/country so as a result you selectively limit yourself to your own race/country unless you meet someone who is able to do the thing that commonly only people from your own race/country are able to do?

Do you see what I'm trying to say? Pakistani/indians are known for their ability to make good indian food so as a result I have a preference for someone from my own race/country however if I loved english food then I would have a preference for a wife who was not pak/indian and would reject them all and search for an english wife who knew how to cook nice english food as many of them commonly can, it's not racist for me to do this right? I'm simply limiting myself to the race that I believe will be the most compatible with me according to my characteristics as a person.

[Who Am I?]

Well, this thread blew up while I was gone. I think I'll take a front row seat for this one.:popcorn:

Look, it's not racist to prefer to be around certain people that are like you, whether that is race, language, religion, ethnic group, etc. I think it is natural to want to be around people that are like you.

What IS racist is when you start thinking that one group is better than another and you base it on race, language, religion, ethnic group, etc.

That's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

[May Ayob]

Considering how this discussion is going, I wouldn't be surprised if I was labeled as a racist as well. And if I was, well.... I don't really care. Allah knows best who is racist and who is not. He knows best who discriminates and who doesn't. To me, that's all that matters.

Salaam sister- peace be to you.
Is this something to be proud of? saying that you dont mind being considered a racist? Would you say something like this infront of Rasoul Allah? i hope not because this would be disrespect to his teachings and it would be a big dissapointment.I would certainlt be ashemd of myself if i uttered such words.
But what do we know, we all claim to be humanitarian , we all claim to seek the truth we all claim to be amongst the good people , but the truth only come when time plots against you to reveal what you truly conceal inside your heart.
Sister let me request something please, when Rahmadhan time comes , please ask our Creator to give you heart because you truly seem to be in need of one.

He knows best who discriminates and who doesn't. To me, that's all that matters.[/quote]
Exactly, so you , and Salahudeen and anybody else does not judge who discriminates, please sister go back to the holy quran , if you have noticed all my words were either backed up by a hadeeth or a verse in the Quran , I think we should have realised by now that this is and Islamic Board , if it was other than that then maybe the arguements you guys used would have been accpeted.
Folllowing your desires is something and Islam is something else.
All what i said was from an islamic point of view,What you and brother Salahudeen have broght up was based on your imagination is i may say.
Just as God is your creator He is the Creator of everyone else. You dont decide who is better or what is better , this is not your , me , or anybody else's job we are only slaves and servants to our creator.
I would also like to share a Hadeeth with you i think you are in need of and i hope it may benefit you as well,
The Prophet Peace and blessings be upon him , insha Allah said:
Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.
All God's creatures are His family; and he is the most beloved of God who doeth most good to God's creatures.
I hope you accept my words in the best way they were intended to be.
Salaam - peace be to you

[Riana17]

Salaam sister- peace be to you.
Is this something to be proud of? saying that you dont mind being considered a racist? Would you say something like this infront of Rasoul Allah? i hope not because this would be disrespect to his teachings and it would be a big dissapointment.I would certainlt be ashemd of myself if i uttered such words.
But what do we know, we all claim to be humanitarian , we all claim to seek the truth we all claim to be amongst the good people , but the truth only come when time plots against you to reveal what you truly conceal inside your heart.
Sister let me request something please, when Rahmadhan time comes , please ask our Creator to give you heart because you truly seem to be in need of one.

He knows best who discriminates and who doesn't. To me, that's all that matters.

Exactly, so you , and Salahudeen and anybody else does not judge who discriminates, please sister go back to the holy quran , if you have noticed all my words were either backed up by a hadeeth or a verse in the Quran , I think we should have realised by now that this is and Islamic Board , if it was other than that then maybe the arguements you guys used would have been accpeted.
Folllowing your desires is something and Islam is something else.
All what i said was from an islamic point of view,What you and brother Salahudeen have broght up was based on your imagination is i may say.
Just as God is your creator He is the Creator of everyone else. You dont decide who is better or what is better , this is not your , me , or anybody else's job we are only slaves and servants to our creator.
I would also like to share a Hadeeth with you i think you are in need of and i hope it may benefit you as well,
The Prophet Peace and blessings be upon him , insha Allah said:
Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.
All God's creatures are His family; and he is the most beloved of God who doeth most good to God's creatures.
I hope you accept my words in the best way they were intended to be.
Salaam - peace be to you[/QUOTE]



Salam
I am in hurry and I didnt read this forum very well

I think what Ms Flame means is that, she does not care to please everybody, what matters is what Allah thinks about her. She wont waste her time proving to others about her.

For me, in my personal view there are many people who thinks they do not discriminate or they are not proud or they are not rude, but I hope everyone can be very sure about that.
Coz I've seen many people here and sadly they are bro & sis in Islam


and yes once again, I would conclude that Ms Flame could accept your words. But if I hurt you or not, I will still say this, your words dear sister are rude and not Islamic way either.. I wont argue with you, i said what I have to say and I hope you will react in Islamic way also. Please Sit with yourself and analyze your dealings.

nobody is perfect. in the end of the day, what I only wish for myself is not to hurt anyone by my tounge or actions. I am ready for any consequences If I may wrong and the good thing about me is that i dont care if people thinks I embarrass myself when I admit I am wrong. when i admit, it shows my real strength and I will continue to grow when I acknowledge my mistakes

salam

[Muhaba]

discrimination is common because human beings like to feel good about themselves and like to think that they are somehow superior to/better than some other ppl, whether because race, religion, nationality, or whatever.

[May Ayob]

Salaam Peace be to all

It is very dissapointing how this thread turned to a useless on going debate. All i want to say is that; I am the one who owes an apology, I owe an apology to you brother Salahudeen , to you sister Flame, to you brother al yunan, to you brother Just a guy , to you sister Sweet106, to everyone who has joined this thread , to all the viewers of this thread , and i also owe and apology to myself.
So - I am Sorry.

If i knew before that this thread was going to turn into this i wouldn't have opened it in the first place.This thread is about discrimination , it is not about marriage , it is not about interracial relationships and it is certainly not about accusing people of being racist.
And brother Salahudeen, if i may then, please accept my apology on behalf of brother al yunan because i was the reason why he called you racist. Had i known that this thread would turn into a social club, i wouldn't have opened it as i mentioned before.

I also would like to point out my disappointment , if there is something we know that we wouldn't say infront of Rasoul Allah, then it is better not saying it in first place. So as to respect our beloved Prophet BPUH. As i mention before this is an Islamic board. I only asked for how to fight this evil not how to cultivate it, but Thank you for all your replies. It seems that we have certainly wasted much time into such a useless argument.

Listen brother, what makes me confused is that: If you already know the answer in first place, and you are so bound to your views , why ask the question in first place , huh? didn't the prophet Pbuh say that we should not be using our tongues in vain. Well to me this is certainly vain. All of us could have done something better. We could have made Charity, Pleased our Parents , did something that actually has a meaning rather than to sit down on the computer and uselessly mingle about discrimiantion while we know that we aren't going to do anything about it besides talk.

Finally,I would like to say that I am not worth , you or any body else's time being waste, so for God's sake please don't bother replying to my post because, i am certainly not worth it , nor am i interested in internet arguements from a member of the opposite gender.

I would also like to share with everyone a couple of Hadeeth i hope that helps us , in bringing back the mercy and love between our souls as Human beings and also as Muslims.

Kindness is a mark of faith: and whoever hath not kindness hath not faith.

What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.

He who helpeth his fellow-creature in the hour of need, and he who helpeth the oppressed, him will God help in the Day of Travail.

To gladden the heart of the weary, to remove the suffering of the afflicted, hath its own reward. In the day of trouble, the memory of the action comes like a rush of the torrent, and takes our burden away.
Whoever is kind to His creatures, God is kind to him; therefore be kind to man on earth, whether good or bad; and being kind to the bad, is to withold him from badness, thus in heaven you will be treated kindly.
"What is Islam?" someone asked. Muhammad said, "Purity of speech and charity."

Verily God instructs me to be humble and lowly and not proud; and that no one should oppress another
Humility and courtesy are acts of piety.

Paradise is not for him who reproaches others with any favor he done to them.

He will not enter hell who hath faith equal to a mustard seed in his heart; and he will not enter Paradise who hath a single grain of pride, equal to a mustard seed, in his heart.

Verily, God is mild, and is fond of mildness, and he gives to the mild what he does not to the harsh.

Salaam Peace be to you :)

[Salahudeen]

Salaam sister- peace be to you.
Is this something to be proud of? saying that you dont mind being considered a racist? Would you say something like this infront of Rasoul Allah? i hope not because this would be disrespect to his teachings and it would be a big dissapointment.I would certainlt be ashemd of myself if i uttered such words.
But what do we know, we all claim to be humanitarian , we all claim to seek the truth we all claim to be amongst the good people , but the truth only come when time plots against you to reveal what you truly conceal inside your heart.
Sister let me request something please, when Rahmadhan time comes , please ask our Creator to give you heart because you truly seem to be in need of one.

It is something to be very proud of, she is basically saying she doesn't care for your opinion on the matter only Allah's, if you label her as racist it doesn't matter because this is an opinion which you have based upon absolutely nothing. This is the meaning of what she was saying. And perhaps you could talk nicely to people ukhti instead of being rude and insulting because they have an opposing view that doesn't agree with your view.

He knows best who discriminates and who doesn't. To me, that's all that matters.

Exactly, so you , and Salahudeen and anybody else does not judge who discriminates, please sister go back to the holy quran , if you have noticed all my words were either backed up by a hadeeth or a verse in the Quran , I think we should have realised by now that this is and Islamic Board , if it was other than that then maybe the arguements you guys used would have been accpeted.
Folllowing your desires is something and Islam is something else.
All what i said was from an islamic point of view,What you and brother Salahudeen have broght up was based on your imagination is i may say.
Just as God is your creator He is the Creator of everyone else. You dont decide who is better or what is better , this is not your , me , or anybody else's job we are only slaves and servants to our creator.

And the same also applies to you, please do not judge a person as being discriminating and racist because he has a certain preference for a quite valid reason that you can't understand. You presented hadiths but the hadiths you presented dealt with completely different issues not the issues I raised such as communication problems etc. I think you're having a problem understanding the english language. Is it your first language? We aren't arguing with the hadiths you presented and saying they are wrong however they are aside from the point I was trying to make. I'm talking about one thing and you're bringing hadiths that are talking about something else

No body here is saying any race is better than another, where did we ever say such a thing? can you show me please? I said a certain races may be more compatible with each other in certain areas due to common factors such as language. What you said was from an Islamic view point?? how did you reach that conclusion? you haven't really gave your view on the matter that was being discussed but I assume you think it's racist if a man refuses a person from a different race because he doesn't speak a common language. Is that the Islamic view point you claim to be presenting? If so you've changed the meaning of the word Racism.

And no it wasn't based upon our imagination, it was based upon real life scenarios that occur and are labelled as racism by some people when they aren't. As people in this thread have proved.



waslaam.

[Salahudeen]

I think I have been discriminated against in this thread because I presented different views, so as a result I've been labelled as racist due to my different views, without anyone even pointing out what I exactly said that was racist. I have yet to see a counter argument only insults. And the funny thing is, the views I presented are not necessarily mine, I wanted to present the other side of the argument, for example if a black person came to ask for my daughters hand, it wouldn't bother me if he spoke Urdu or not I would still give it however I wanted to demonstrate to people that not everyone is the same and people have reasons for their decisions and the reason may not be racism so we should not generalize every person as racist if they have a preference. Every situation is different, "The wali is entitled to reject to whatever reason that is considered valid and the level of validity differ from one society to another. So, such matters are taken case by case."

But certain people fell into the trap and jumped the gun and started screaming "racist" as is so typically done without even trying to understand the point of view and what was being said.

[Salahudeen]

[QUOTE]

Salaam Peace be to all
It is very dissapointing how this thread turned to a useless on going debate, All i want to say is I am the one who owes and apaology, I owe an apology to you brother Salahudeen , to you sister Flame, to you brother al yunan, to you brother Just a guy , to you sister Sweet106, to everyone who has joined this thread , to all the viewers of this thread , and i also owe and apology to myself. So - I am Sorry.

Yes it is very disappointing that we are not understanding and tolerant of other peoples views when they differ from ours, I think if anything we should take away from this thread that people may not agree with us on certain matters but it doesn't make them bad people and give us a right to insult them without understanding what they're saying. However there is no need for an apology ukhti it was just a discussion presenting both sides of the argument, however I think people misunderstood things due to communication problems.

If i knew before that this thread was going to turn into this i wouldnt have opened it in the first pleace , This thread is about discrimination , it is not about marriage , it is not about interracial relationships and it is certainly not about accusing people of being racist ) And brother Salahudeen if i may then please accept my apology on behalf of brother al yunan because i was the reason why he called you racist. Had i known that this thread would turn into a social club , i wouldnt have opened it as i mentioned before.

I'm afraid I can not accept you're apology on his behalf as you're not the one who jumped up and quickly labelled me racist. I believe all are equal in sight of God and no race has any superiority over another however some races may be more compatible with each other due to common factors that they may have, but that doesn't make either one any better then the other, they are both equal.

And its also quite possible that people from different races are more suited to each other as opposed to people from their own race, and this is what I was trying to say, each case is different and it's impossible to apply a generalization on everyone with a particular preference as racist because every individual/situation is different and the reasons/motives are different.

And I know those things weren't what the thread was about however I felt they were very relevant and I feel the reaction of people towards certain views proved that it needed to be discussed.

I also would like to point out my disappointment , if there is something we know wouldnt say infront of Rasoul Allah then it is better not saying it in first place , as to respect our beloved prophet. As i mention before this is an Islamic board. I only asked for how to fight this evil not how to cultivate it, but thank you for all your replies. It seems that we have certainly wasted much time into such a useless argument. Listen brother what makes me confused is that is you already know the answer in first place and you are so bound to your views , why ask the question in first place , huh? didnt the prophet Pbuh say that we shoudl not be useing our tongues in vain , well to me this is certainly vain, All of us could have done something better, We could have made charity, Pleased our parents , did something that actually has a meaning than to sit down on the computer and uselessy mingle about discrimiantion while we know that we arent going to do anything besides talk.

There is nothing I have said that I wouldn't say infront of RasoolAllah, and if he thought it was wrong then I would correct my view in accordance to his however you have not presented his view on the matter. Would rasoolAllah really call a person racist if he believes all are equal before God however he has a preference due to a valid reason? I don't think he would, rather I think he would be understanding of the reason behind the preference.

For example when rasoolAllah told a man that he should have married a young virgin girl, the man went I have a preference for older women because when my father Jabir died, he left behind many young daughters and I wanted to marry an older woman who would look after them and teach them good manners. And rasoolAllah prayed for him to be blessed. Even though he had a preference for older women and would reject all young women due to his reasons.

RasoolAllah didn't tell him off for having a preference for a perfectly good and valid reason did he? simple as that.

Lastly i would like to say that I am not worth , you or any body elses time being waste, so for God's sake please don't bother replying to my post because , i am certainly not worth it , nor am i interested in internet arguements from a memeber of the other gender.

Of course you are ukhti, if you believe someone is racist because of a view they have you are definitely worth the time. I hope you still do not think I am racist. Who said it was an argument? I've never been calmer, isn't it more of a discussion of opposing views rather than a argument?

Salaam Peace be to you :)

waslaam and unto you.

[Who Am I?]

May Ayob, no need to apologize. I don't think you said or did anything wrong. I don't think anyone really has, to be honest. At least, I'm not offended. So don't worry about it, sister.

[Revert 2010]

Salaam, people are entitled to their opinion sister and you shouldn't apologise, I have to agree with sweet though on the points she made. It's about discrimination people try to justify a point of view which can be deemed as discriminatory and in a persons mind that is okay. Should it be about Islam rather than culture, what happens if you meet a lady from your own background and she can't cook the food you love, what about looking at how pious a person is?? Before sticking certain labels on them. The analogy of cooking is interesting but people are fickle at the best of times what happens if he wants a women who can cook to begin with then meets a pious women who can't but incorporates everything Islamically and changes his mind. Nobody is calling anyone racist it's when people use culture as an excuse. What happens when that lady is say no longer able to cook what does he do then discard her?? People have choices I don't disagree with that but I thought we lived under a common Ummah. I won't get drawn into a protracted debate about this, but some points made here are food for thought. Salaam

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

Sister let me request something please, when Rahmadhan time comes , please ask our Creator to give you heart because you truly seem to be in need of one.

Yes, sister. I will ask my Lord, our Creator to forgive me for causing you any pain or sorrow. I will ask our Creator to soften my heart and show more compassion and kindness towards others. Jazakallah khair.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

I am the one who owes an apology, I owe an apology ......, to you sister Flame

What was that?! Brother Just a Guy, why didn't you tell the sister that I don't like anyone to say sorry to me? lol. I like to have the exclusive privilege to apologize. Heh hehe he!

So sister, please don't say sorry to me. I want to say sorry instead, if that's alright. I'm sorry if I said anything to offend you.... or anybody else here during this discussion.

May Allah forgive you, me and us all. Ameen.

[Flame of Hope]

:sl:

Here's a nice little something I found..... I think it's pretty relevant to this thread.... and I hope it will help ease the tension that has built up.

-----------------

The Duties of Brotherhood
by Al-Imam al-Ghazali

The whole Community of Believers is conceived of as a great brotherhood. ' Surely the believers are but brothers. So set things right between your two brothers, and aware of God - perhaps you will obtain mercy' (Qur'an 49:10).

Know that the contract of brotherhood is a bond between two persons, like the contract of marriage between two spouses. In all, this comprises of eight duties:

The first duty is the material one. The lowest degree is where you place your brother on the same footing as your slave or your servant, attending to his need from your surplus. To oblige him to ask is the ultimate shortcoming in brotherly duty. At the second degree you place your brother on the same footing as yourself. At the third degree, the highest of all, you prefer your brother to yourself and set his need before your own. This is the degree of the siddiq, and the final stage for those united in spiritual love.

The second duty is to render personal aid in the satisfaction of needs, attending to them without waiting to be asked, and giving them priority over private needs. Here too there are different stages, as in the case of material support. The lowest degree consists in attending to the need when asked and when in plenty, though with joy cheerfulness, showing pleasure and gratitude. In short, your brother's need ought to be like your own, or even more important than your own.

The third duty concerns the tongue, which should sometimes be silent and at other times speak out. In short, you should keep silent about any speech unpleasant to your brother in general and in particular - unless obliged to speak out to promote good and prevent evil, and even then only if you can find no valid excuse for saying nothing. The lowest degree in brotherhood is where you treat your brother as you would wish to be treated yourself, and there is no doubt that he would expect you to veil his shame and keep quiet about his misdeeds and faults. Know that the mainstay of brotherhood is concord in word and deed, and compassion.

The fourth duty is to use the tongue for speaking out. Just as brotherhood calls for silence about unpleasant things, so it requires the utterance of favourable things. You should use the tongue to express affection to your brother, and to enquire agreeably about his circumstances. For brotherhood means participating in joy and sadness.

The fifth duty is forgiveness of mistake and failings. The failing of a friend must be one of two kinds; either in his religion, through the commission of an offence; or in his duty to you, through an omission in brotherhood. In the case of religion, where he commits an offence and persists in it, you must advise him kindly so as to supply his deficiency, put his affairs in order, and restore him to a correct and virtuous state. As for his error in brotherly duty, by which he causes alienation, there is no disagreement on the proper course being forgiveness and patience. Indeed, whenever a good interpretation is possible, or an excuse - whether obvious or far-fetched - can be advanced, this obligatory in the duty of brotherhood.

The sixth duty is to pray for your brother, during his life and after his death, that he may have all he might wish for himself, his family and his dependants.

The seventh duty is loyalty and sincerity. The meaning of loyalty is steadfastness in love and maintaining it to the death with your brother, and after his death with his children and his fellows. For love is for the sake of the Other Life. If it is severed before death the work is in vain and the effort wasted.

The eighth duty is relief from discomfort and inconvenience. You should not discomfort your brother with things that are awkward for him. Rather you should ease his heart of its cares and needs, and spare him having to assume any of your burdens. Such then are the duties of fellowship. Therefore you must bind all your faculties to their service.

These manners of the Outer are only the title page of the Inner and Purity of Heart. When hearts are purified there is no need of formality to display their content.

He who looks to the fellowship of creatures will sometimes be crooked and sometimes straight. But he who looks to the Creator is bound to the Straight Path both inwardly and outwardly.

His inner is adorned by love of God and his creatures. His outer is beautified by worship of God and service to His servants, for these are the highest kinds of service to God, since there is no way to them except by good character. The slave can attain by the goodness of his character to the degree of the upright keeper of fasts - and beyond.

---------

[Who Am I?]

:sl:



What was that?! Brother Just a Guy, why didn't you tell the sister that I don't like anyone to say sorry to me? lol. I like to have the exclusive privilege to apologize. Heh hehe he!

So sister, please don't say sorry to me. I want to say sorry instead, if that's alright. I'm sorry if I said anything to offend you.... or anybody else here during this discussion.

May Allah forgive you, me and us all. Ameen.

Hey now, don't put this on me, sister. ;D

I've been gone all day and haven't had a chance to reply to anything.

[Riana17]

:sl:



What was that?! Brother Just a Guy, why didn't you tell the sister that I don't like anyone to say sorry to me? lol. I like to have the exclusive privilege to apologize. Heh hehe he!

So sister, please don't say sorry to me.
May Allah forgive you, me and us all. Ameen.

Salam sis :)

Kindness is good, too much is not
i think you should acknowledge the apology
she must feel good that you forgiven her, that's how we will grow

well actually I am talking on behalf of me, when I am mistaken, I cant have peace until I am sure I am forgiven
If people says I didnt make any mistake & for sure I did, i wont take their words lol

[Starrynight]

I think it has always been common. But today with mass media we are able to see it much more clearly. Also because many countries are becoming melting pots so we are more often faced with people who are different from us. Those who are smart take this opportunity to embrace our differences and try to find peaceful ways to learn from one another and co-exist. Those who are ignorant use this as an excuse to spread hate.

[Who Am I?]

I think it has always been common. But today with mass media we are able to see it much more clearly. Also because many countries are becoming melting pots so we are more often faced with people who are different from us. Those who are smart take this opportunity to embrace our differences and try to find peaceful ways to learn from one another and co-exist. Those who are ignorant use this as an excuse to spread hate.

:sl:

I have a theory that the government actually perpetrates discrimination and racial tension through the use of mass media. Not many people agree with me, but think about it. A people divided are easier to control, so if we're too busy worrying about our neighbors down the street moving in because they're black/white/brown/Muslim/whatever, we won't really see who the real enemy is.

[Starrynight]

^Hm... that's an interesting theory. Intentional or not it has some validity I think.

[Who Am I?]

^Hm... that's an interesting theory. Intentional or not it has some validity I think.

:sl:

Well of course I've never been able to prove it, but it's a feeling that I have long had based on how our society has changed over the last few decades.