two party system

[truthseeker63]

What does everyone here think of the two party system in America in my opiniopn both parties are the same they both support the so called state of Israel they support America's Wars ?

http://www.greens.org/ri/compare.html

[Who Am I?]

The only two party system I believe in is a party on Friday night and a party on Saturday night. ;D

Anyway, I've long said that the President is merely a figurehead, and that Congress has most of the power. Congress is controlled by special interest groups, which is why I think this so-called "War on Terror" was started in the first place. They're just using radical Islam as a scapegoat to justify their wars for oil.

I still support the troops for the most part. My dad was a Vietnam veteran. But I don't believe we should have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan. But we are there so the point is meaningless now.

[Lynx]

Do you think Left and Right are the same direction?

[truthseeker63]

Yes but let me point out that you don't have true Capitalism in America or anywhere in the West for that matter you have Corporatism and Fascism when Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels criticized Capitalism he should of criticized Corporatism not Capitalism Free Markets or Free Enterprise. The Democrats may support a Progressive Tax the Republicans suppprt a Flat Tax but they both believe in a man made US Constitution that can change and in man made laws that can and do change all the time for example Bill Clinton a Democrat raised taxes on the 1.2% or the top earners and on Corporations in 1993 than the Republican George Bush gets into power as President and he cuts or lower taxes for the Rich/Wealthy and the Corporations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus...on_Act_of_1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_an...on_Act_of_2003

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[al yunan]

Karl Marx criticized Capitalism he should of criticized Corporatism not Capitalism Free Markets or Free Enterprise.

Please do tell what world famous Corporations existed in Karl Marx's time and how could one in those days obtain Financial information on anybody ?

[truthseeker63]

To be honest I respect Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels for many of their ideas but I don't respect their Atheism anyway are you saying that Corporations did not exist back than ?

[Lynx]

Yes but let me point out that you don't have true Capitalism in America or anywhere in the West for that matter you have Corporatism and Fascism when Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels criticized Capitalism he should of criticized Corporatism not Capitalism Free Markets or Free Enterprise. The Democrats may support a Progressive Tax the Republicans suppprt a Flat Tax but they both believe in a man made US Constitution that can change and in man made laws that can and do change all the time for example Bill Clinton a Democrat raised taxes on the 1.2% or the top earners and on Corporations in 1993 than the Republican George Bush gets into power as President and he cuts or lower taxes for the Rich/Wealthy and the Corporations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus...on_Act_of_1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_an...on_Act_of_2003

So you think Republicans and Democrats are the same thing because they both believe in "man made laws" ? I hate to break it to you but every civilization has had a set of changing-man made laws. This is necessary to adapt with new things that might appear in societies. In any case, the policies of the Republicans and Democrats towards economic and social issues are very different and so they are two different parties.

[truthseeker63]

Democrats and Republicans are also the same because they are pro Israeli.

[GuestFellow]

So you think Republicans and Democrats are the same thing because they both believe in "man made laws" ? I hate to break it to you but every civilization has had a set of changing-man made laws. This is necessary to adapt with new things that might appear in societies. In any case, the policies of the Republicans and Democrats towards economic and social issues are very different and so they are two different parties.

The Republicans and Democrat domestic policies are different but their foreign policy is very similar.

[Pygoscelis]

I believe that anything resembling democracy requires more than two parties.

[Mister Agenda]

Agreed. The two-party system is a result of 'winner-take-all' elections where the party in power controls all the government resources. This necessarily makes winning elections the only consideration for the major parties, and makes it impossible for a 'third party' to take root unless one of the major parties self-destructs. All that matters is pleasing campaign contributors and constituents, in that order.

In a multi-party system, no party can control the country by itself, they must form coalitions. Legislation may be slower in such a system, but haste has a price.

[Just_A_Girl13]

Democrats and Republicans are also the same because they are pro Israeli.

There's more to American politics than Israel vs. Palestine.

In any case, the policies of the Republicans and Democrats towards economic and social issues are very different and so they are two different parties.

Agreed. Left and Right are far from the same direction.

Yes but let me point out that you don't have true Capitalism in America or anywhere in the West for that matter you have Corporatism and Fascism when Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels criticized Capitalism he should of criticized Corporatism not Capitalism Free Markets or Free Enterprise.

We do have capitalism, at least to some degree, and that's part of the problem with our economy.

[Who Am I?]

A Communist economy doesn't work. We saw that with the old Soviet Union, which (IMHO) fell because their government went bankrupt trying to keep pace with the US economy of the 1980's and early 90's.

But capitalism has its flaws too, as we see now with the US economy. After the initial period of prosperity following WW2, the last decade has seen a steady decline of the US economy as consumers went crazy buying things on credit and then defaulting on loans. If this trend continues, the US too will fall just as the Soviet Union did. At the very least, the USA is a declining global empire.

[Futuwwa]

A Communist economy doesn't work. We saw that with the old Soviet Union, which (IMHO) fell because their government went bankrupt trying to keep pace with the US economy of the 1980's and early 90's.

Funny, before the stagnation of the 80s, even right-wing intellectuals grumblingly conceded that Communist economics had been proven to work... ^o)

Russia has always been poorer and less developed than the West. It was so before Communism, and it is so still after it. The Cold War was rigged against it from the start.

[Futuwwa]

And regarding the winner-takes-all election system, I certainly see no benefit in it at all compared to a proportional representation system. It effectively prevents any third parties from rising, since few will vote on someone they don't think have any chance of winning anyway and none but the winner counts.

[GuestFellow]

A Communist economy doesn't work. We saw that with the old Soviet Union, which (IMHO) fell because their government went bankrupt trying to keep pace with the US economy of the 1980's and early 90's.

America actually financed the rise of "communism" in the Soviet Union. Fun Fact.

Antony C. Sutton - Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution pt. 1/2

[Who Am I?]

Hmm, so maybe I was wrong about the Communist economic model, but the problem is still that while it looks good on paper, it never works in theory. What you always end up with is all of the wealth and power in the hands of a few individuals while the masses suffer. It ends up being more of an oligarchy than anything.

And yes, you are right about Russia being backwards. It is a pity, because the country itself has vast natural resources that could make it an economic powerhouse, but its political and social development has always lagged behind the rest of Europe.

[Just_A_Girl13]

Hmm, so maybe I was wrong about the Communist economic model, but the problem is still that while it looks good on paper, it never works in theory. What you always end up with is all of the wealth and power in the hands of a few individuals while the masses suffer. It ends up being more of an oligarchy than anything.

I think you mean it never works in practice. That's only because the individuals who tried to implement it became too power-hungry. Marxist communism is a brilliant economic theory, in my opinion. Now, what about socialism? I prefer socialism to capitalism because in capitalism people are left out. Socialism includes everyone and every citizen is given a fair chance at success. Economic success, that is.

[Who Am I?]

I think you mean it never works in practice. That's only because the individuals who tried to implement it became too power-hungry. Marxist communism is a brilliant economic theory, in my opinion. Now, what about socialism? I prefer socialism to capitalism because in capitalism people are left out. Socialism includes everyone and every citizen is given a fair chance at success. Economic success, that is.

Yes, in practice is what I meant. Thanks, sister.

[Futuwwa]

It's absurd to point to history as "proof" of Communism (or any other system) not working. Has any system been tried in all of the infinite number of possible ways you could implement it?

Capitalism took thousands of years to develop into its current efficient form, doing much trial and error and fooling around in the process. Communism was never allowed the same grace period, but was instantly thrust into a competition that was rigged against it. Still, it produced a few resounding economic successes that serve as proof of concept, such as Tito's Yugoslavia and Stalin's ludicrously fast industrialization of the Soviet Union.

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

all of the wealth and power in the hands of a few individuals while the masses suffer.

That sounds like capitalism. :p:

I think you mean it never works in practice. That's only because the individuals who tried to implement it became too power-hungry. Marxist communism is a brilliant economic theory, in my opinion. Now, what about socialism? I prefer socialism to capitalism because in capitalism people are left out. Socialism includes everyone and every citizen is given a fair chance at success. Economic success, that is.

The main problem with socialism is high taxation. I do agree with you that I prefer socialism over capitalism. Then again, I prefer Islamic economics.

[Just_A_Girl13]

That sounds like capitalism.

Agreed.

I do agree with you that I prefer socialism over capitalism. Then again, I prefer Islamic economics.

Interesting. Not a lot of people agree with me on this. But thank you :) Islamic economics sound interesting.... what are they like?

[Mister Agenda]

Economics is all about what is incentivized. If the laws are rigged in such a way that it is attractive to borrow and spend, that is what people will do. Not all, but enough to affect the whole society.

I think highly of capitalism in the sense of free markets, but in the USA we have corporatism, consumerism, and 'crony capitalism'. We're pretty far from anything close to laissez faire capitalism.

I like Canada's economic policies better: They instituted spending reform (new government spending must be balanced by cuts elsewhere to pay for it) and are sitting pretty now compated to the USA. They did lots of other stuff differently too, but that one stands out as radically different from the economic course my country is on. They also are not known for throwing theirmilitary weight around, something I wish we weren't known for as well.

[GuestFellow]

Interesting. Not a lot of people agree with me on this. But thank you :) Islamic economics sound interesting.... what are they like?

Salaam,

I think western economics is mainly concerned about resources. Economists believe that the world has limited resources and so the distribution of resources must be governed. This is where supply and demand plays a role here. If there is high demand for certain goods, then the price will be raised to maintain the supply. Where, there is a low demand for particular goods, then the price will be lowered. Interests rates will be set to encourage consumers to spend more money or to save up money depending on the circumstances.

Inflation will be considered when setting interest rates. In western economics, inflation is very important. Where the price of goods rise, the value of money falls. Basically, you have less money to buy goods. As I mentioned before, the price increases where supply is diminishing. If the supply of goods diminishes, price increases and the value of money values. When this continues to happen, you get hyper inflation, where money is worthless, you cannot buy anything.

Western economics is different from Islamic economics in two ways. Islamic economics does not believe that resources are limited and interests is forbidden (riba).

My knowledge of Islamic economics is poor and I might make mistakes if I continue. I hope my understanding of western economics is not flawed, so feel free to correct me.

EDIT:

Speaking of two party system, I remember there was the George Bush and John Kerry election. Both were competing against each other but came from the same group, Skull and Bones. Fun fact.

[Just_A_Girl13]

Islamic economics does not believe that resources are limited and interests is forbidden (riba).

That sounds interesting. Excuse my ignorance (again), but is that the kind of economic system that is used in Islamic states?

Peace

[Futuwwa]

Islamic economics is largely a concept under development. Most Islamic countries have capitalist systems of some sort. Some are heavily state capitalist, with the state having established and owning large parts of the productive economy. Saudi Arabia and Iran are both examples of this.

[GuestFellow]

That sounds interesting. Excuse my ignorance (again), but is that the kind of economic system that is used in Islamic states?

Peace

Salaam,

Yes, this is the system that is supposed to be used. The current Muslim countries have not adopted the Islamic economic system.

http://monzer.kahf.com/papers/englis...y_malaysia.pdf

^ You may find this interesting.

[Futuwwa]

At a debate at the mosque, a few brothers adhered to an absolutist no-interest stance. I replied that that's a valid position to take, but that if you do, I maintain that it follows from it that all capital income is haraam and a completely Communistic economy the only valid Islamic way.

Not that there's anything problematic about such a conclusion, mind you ;D

[Ramadhan]

At a debate at the mosque, a few brothers adhered to an absolutist no-interest stance. I replied that that's a valid position to take, but that if you do, I maintain that it follows from it that all capital income is haraam and a completely Communistic economy the only valid Islamic way.

Actually Islamic economic and financial system take the best of capitalistic and comunnist system and eliminate their bad effects/excesses.

Islamic economic/financial system promotes trade, financial and capital cooperation, profit sharing, flat income and wealth tax, free-interests, philantrophy, etc.

[Who Am I?]

Economics is all about what is incentivized. If the laws are rigged in such a way that it is attractive to borrow and spend, that is what people will do. Not all, but enough to affect the whole society.

I think highly of capitalism in the sense of free markets, but in the USA we have corporatism, consumerism, and 'crony capitalism'. We're pretty far from anything close to laissez faire capitalism.

I like Canada's economic policies better: They instituted spending reform (new government spending must be balanced by cuts elsewhere to pay for it) and are sitting pretty now compated to the USA. They did lots of other stuff differently too, but that one stands out as radically different from the economic course my country is on. They also are not known for throwing theirmilitary weight around, something I wish we weren't known for as well.

Our government doesn't seem to understand the concept of cutting spending to save money. Instead, they want to raise taxes to make up for the loss in revenue.

A big reason why the US economy is in the shape it is in is because of credit. People borrowing money to buy things and not paying for them, and then defaulting on their loans. The consumer credit economy really took off after World War 2 and it has now caught up to us as a nation.

I was just talking about this last week with a brother at the masjid. The USA is a decaying empire, partly because of our economic policies and partly because of spreading our military might too thin around the world. We are witnessing the last days of our house, I think...