Friendly Atheist

[Mister Agenda]

Hi, everyone! I am an atheist in the USA, and I've joined this site so I have a place to come when I have questions about Islam and Muslims. I'm not here to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs, although I do not agree with the beliefs of the majority on this site, I strongly believe in the freedom of conscience to choose what you hold sacred, in peace.

I'm not looking to be converted either, if Allah exists, he will have to see to that himself.

I'm exposed to a lot of conservative Christians (and some liberal atheists) who have a low opinion or fear of Islam. I don't share that opinion, but I may share some of their claims on occasion to find out what your response is. It is not my intent to offend anyone by doing so, I am genuinely seeking answers.

I have many friends who are Bantus from Somalia who are Muslims, but I have more contact with the children than the adults. The adults may be good scholars of Islam, but their children's English is much better. I feel I will be able to get answers better expressed in English here.

Thanks in advance for letting me participate in your forum; I look forward to productive conversations.

[aadil77]

welcome, we have many friendly atheists here that you can join

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings Mister Agenda

Welcome to the forum!

I hope you enjoy your stay here and gain some knowledge about Islaam through your stay

[Who Am I?]

I joined this forum as a non-Muslim and never once did I encounter any hostility from anyone here.

You're in good hands here.

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[Zafran]

welcome to the forum

peace

[Hannah.]

Welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your stay here :)

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks, everyone, I feel very welcome!

[Haya emaan]

welcome to the forum
hope you have a beneficial stay here

[al yunan]

I'm not here to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs, although I do not agree with the beliefs of the majority on this site

Salam brother m/a,

Did you know that to be a true Muslim you must first be an atheist ?
We will Inshallah discuss that later for now welcome to I.B.

Masalam

[Mister Agenda]

I did not know that, but I can see how it might be helpful to approach Islam as a 'clean slate' rather than having many beliefs which must be let go of.

[Amanda]

Welcome! Hopefully you will be able to learn lots here, and find the answers to any of your questions! :)

[Getoffmyback]

Welcome atheist. Can you state Why you became atheist?

[Danah]

Welcome to the forum,

I hope you will have a beneficial stay here

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

Generally speaking, you may be one of the first Athiests that aren't arrogant/disrespectful towards religion as I've seen many be. I'm not saying Athiests are bad, but it's like a common agenda for them to have such a negative outlook on religion to the point where it can be offending (and by that I don't mean they disagree with beliefs, they just act pretty arrogantly, most without even wanting to learn about the other faith).

You highlighted Atheists low view of Islam, not surprising.

[Ramadhan]

Welcome to the IB!

it's nice to meet a friendly atheist, most atheists I know are smug and are generally dismissive to anything related to religion, even if they have little to no knowledge about that particular religion.

[IAmZamzam]

I'm with them: it's not often one finds a friendly atheist, especially in a context that has anything to do with religion, and most especially on a message board. This is a refreshing change. Welcome.

[Just_A_Girl13]

I joined this forum as a non-Muslim and never once did I encounter any hostility from anyone here. You're in good hands here.

Salam brother Mister Agenda,

This is true, I came here as a non-Muslim as well and all the brothers and sisters were kind, encouraging, and patient with me. Welcome to the forum and don't hesitate to ask any questions you want about Islam. :)

Peace be with you

[Mister Agenda]

It's hard to give one answer that explains why so many atheists come off as rude. There are lots of possibilities. Probably most atheists who aren't interested in religion just ignore it, on the internet you tend to hear from the vocal minority, and sometimes atheists who used to be Christians or Muslims had a rough time when 'came out' to their families and friends. When you are troubled by how religious folks act and then they confirm your fears, it can leave you with a chip on your shoulder that may last a long time. When you lose the chip, you tend to lose interest in arguing with believers.

Some atheists who have recently 'de-converted' are like people who adopt a new religion or change politics: they want to tell everyone about it and convince everyone they're right. Many of us see atheism as liberating and honest, and think we're doing you a favor if we can get you to admit you're wrong. The wisdom to know that isn't a very fruitful occupation may take a while to come to us.

Those of us in cultures where atheists are a tiny minority (like mine) may just be more likely to be those who like to challenge the status quo...or just like to argue. Once we have become open about our atheism and find that it wasn't as scary as we thought it would be to be open and honest about what we really think, there's a temptation to get that feeling of being brave and honest over and over again by repeatedly challenging the beliefs of others.

These are just my impressions, I didn't conduct a scientific survey, but I've been an atheist for many years and I think I have a good idea of what makes us tick. Please appreciate that the people you are most likely to hear from are not likely to be most representative of the majority of Western atheists.

I believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person and try to remember that when I'm speaking. Atheism (and theism) doesn't have these kinds of beliefs built into it. Just as you have to know what religion someone is to tell much about theists, you have to know what kind of philosophy an atheist holds. I'm not just an atheists, I'm also a humanist (ethically), a rationalist (cognitively), a libertarian (politically), and an existentialist (meaning of life). I'm lots of things, my opinion on the existence of any supernatural deities is a facet of who I am, but it doesn't define me. I even go to religious services, I attend a Unitarian Universalist Congregation, a religion that doesn't require you to have particular beliefs to be a member, they expect you to hold certain standards of behavior: we don't have to agree with one another to be kind to one another.

I hope this helps everyone understand where I'm coming from. I know it's complicated, but everyone is complicated if you know enough about them.

[piXie]

welcome.

whats your agenda? :playing:

[Mister Agenda]

Welcome atheist. Can you state Why you became atheist?

Sure. It was quite a journey, but I will try to simplify it: I was raised Pentecostal, a fundamentalist form of Christianity. Over about fifteen years I became more skeptical about many things. My experience was that whenever I looked closely at something someone else thought was supernatural, it turned out to be quite natural. I learned more about science, logic, and evidence and as I applied what I learned consistently; there were many things I stopped believing in that I once found plausible: ESP, alien visitation, Bigfoot, and so forth. It was not that I was convinced there couldn't possibly be any truth to them, it was that I became convinced there wasn't enough evidence for them to reasonably justify believing in them. Maybe Bigfoot does exist and is just very, very good at hiding...but I'm not going to believe until there is more convincing evidence than is now available. If I didn't have a standard of evidence for believing in something, I would have to provisionally accept the existence of the infinite number of things people could possibly imagine to exist. And I'm not saying someone who claims to have seen Bigfoot is lying: there are lots of other possibilities, people can misunderstand what they see, be tricked, have hallucinations, all sorts of things. I'm also not saying that someone who has seen Bigfoot is not justified in believing the creature exists: their experience may make their belief quite justified...but it's not my experience, I didn't have it, to me it is a story someone is telling and I have no way of knowing if, should I have been with the person when it happened, if I would think 'Oh my, Bigfoot is real!' or 'Uh, oh; that's a very big bear!'.

For a long time, I held a space for God because I thought it would be close-minded of me to say God doesn't exist if I can't prove it. Then I realized that it's not close-minded to reach a conclusion about something. It's only close-minded if you conclude something you are unwilling to change your mind about, no matter what the argument or evidence. I also confused agnosticism and atheism, once I understood the definitions better, I realized you can be both at the same time, and then I realized I was already an atheist and just hadn't thought of myself as one.

This is handy for understanding agnostic atheism: If someone asks you if you think you can know if God does exist; and your answer is 'no', then you are an agnostic. If someone asks you if you believe if God does exist, and your answer is 'no', then you're an atheist. If your answer to both is 'no', then you're an agnostic atheist (sometimes called a 'weak atheist'). Before I was an agnostic atheist, I was an agnostic theist: I didn't think I could know if God exists, but I tended to believe that some sort of God does exist...but I did not believe in the God of the Bible, which I had read twice, in two translations, while I was still a teenager.

I hope you find this an adequate explanation of how I became an atheist. A lot of people have stories that are similar to mine, but some people were raised atheists, some people say they never really believed the religion they were taught as a child, some people conclude that if God exists he is unjust and therefore does not exist because they can't believe in an unjust Creator. I'm glad you asked my story, because there's not a lot you can tell about an atheist if you don't know that. Atheism is just an opinion on one topic; knowing why an atheist holds that opinion is the key; just like it's important to know if a theist is a Muslim or a Hindu before you start assuming a lot of things about him or her.

[Mister Agenda]

To learn. I've used the name a long time. I started off as Doctor Agenda back in the nineties when I first started posting on the internet on a gaming forum, I was interested in promoting a particular game and I thought Doctor Agenda sounded like a cool super villain name. When I started posting on non-gaming sites, I demoted myself to Mister, because I didn't want people to think I was a real doctor. Feel free to Google my username to find examples of my posting history, if you're interested in other things I have had to say. Be sure to use Google, as it is more likely to lead you to my posts. That's one of the reasons I keep using the same name, I want people to understand what I'm about. If you like, feel free to cut-and-paste one of my old posts here if you have any questions about it, I will be happy to respond. I'm not the same now as I was 10 years ago, I may no longer feel the same way about a topic as I used to; and if that's the case I am happy to explain why I've changed my mind.

[GuestFellow]

Welcome to the forum!

[piXie]

That's cool Mister Agenda. I hope u find ur stay beneficial and fun!

P.S. This forum came into existence by itself. It is self regulated and administrated. The members think m crazy, but u understand don't you - being an athiest ;)

[Mister Agenda]

That's cool Mister Agenda. I hope u find ur stay beneficial and fun!

P.S. This forum came into existence by itself. It is self regulated and administrated. The members think m crazy, but u understand don't you - being an athiest ;)

LOL, I don't think so, but it is a clever thing to say, it made me laugh when I 'got it', for a second I thought you were serious and talking about some sort of thing where the members ran everything and there was no administrator. That would be an interesting experiment, but probably not a very good forum.

The problem with saying everything has a cause is that if you think about it, it's not what you really believe. You don't think Allah has a cause, do you? You don't think 'The universe must have a cause, and that cause I call Allah. Allah must have a cause, and that cause I just don't have a name for yet'. When looking for ultimate causes, you stop at Allah. I stop at universe (or maybe universes, if there is ever strong evidence of that).

I have thought about my position a lot, for a long time. That doesn't make me right, but it does mean it's rare to hear an argument that I haven't already thought about. It's always fun to hear it put in a new way, though, and with friendly humor. Thanks!

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks, your avatar looks delicious!

[Mister Agenda]

How many posts do I have to make before I can post in other parts of the forum? I have a question about contraception (it makes sense to have lots of children when you're a farmer in a place where you need a lot of help--I'm a farmer's son myself--so I understand why using contraception would be discouraged under those circumstances; but what if you're a gravedigger in the USA and the more children you have the poorer you will be and the harder it will be to give all those kids a good start in life, like sending them to a good college?) and a question about the hijab (the Somali Bantu women I know wear scarves and long dresses, very modest, but some people at the mosque they attend try to make them feel bad about not wearing the hijab and also for wearing bright colored clothing--is their traditional clothing against Islam?). I've posted them in the appropriate places, but I don't think my posts will appear until I'm a full member. There was probably something about that when I registered, but I don't remember. This could be the post that gets me off probation!

[Zafran]

1 - you cant be sure your children will survive even if you have less children - having children is a persons God given right - you cant realy take it away from them - its realy up to the people involved how many children they want. Ofcourse having more children is a good thing - it keeps the human race going.

I'll Let the women answer the question on the hijab.

peace

[جوري]

The problem with saying everything has a cause is that if you think about it, it's not what you really believe. You don't think Allah has a cause,

Easier to stop at a first cause, than come up with a cockamamie and unintelligible fairytale for every last thing in existence no-- that is if you subscribe to Ockham's Razor?
Anyhow welcome aboard, my comment wasn't an invite for a dialogue.. contrary to popular beliefs we're not out to convert people and if we were, logic would dictate we'd do it on their turf.. so enjoy your stay and learn what you need..

best,

[Ramadhan]

How many posts do I have to make before I can post in other parts of the forum?

You can start posting in other threads and sections, although the gender sections will always be a no go for you as a non muslim, which means also you cannot offer advice in the advice and suport section, but you can still start a thread and post reply in your own thread in that section. You will need to post 50 to qualify as a full member which will afford you some perks, such as ability to edit your own posts. Some sections are moderated, so threads or posts may need a while to appear.

I have a question about contraception (it makes sense to have lots of children when you're a farmer in a place where you need a lot of help--I'm a farmer's son myself--so I understand why using contraception would be discouraged under those circumstances; but what if you're a gravedigger in the USA and the more children you have the poorer you will be and the harder it will be to give all those kids a good start in life, like sending them to a good college?)

AFAIK, majority islamic scholars agree that the use of contraception as family planning method is allowed.

and a question about the hijab (the Somali Bantu women I know wear scarves and long dresses, very modest, but some people at the mosque they attend try to make them feel bad about not wearing the hijab and also for wearing bright colored clothing--is their traditional clothing against Islam?). I've posted them in the appropriate places, but I don't think my posts will appear until I'm a full member. There was probably something about that when I registered, but I don't remember. This could be the post that gets me off probation!

Some sections are moderated, so depending on the availability of the moderators of the particular section that your started a thread, you may need to wait some time before it appears.
About hijab, they come in different modes, what pious and observing muslim women wear in Indonesia may not be the same as those in Saudi. The main thing is: they cover what needed to be covered, AND modesty.

[IAmZamzam]

Agenda, I don't know why every atheist who ever gets into a cosmological discussion seems to think that the "but you believe that something is uncaused too; what created God?" evasion is some new one on us that is bound to positively floor and utterly disillusion us for our terrible self-contradictory logic, but theists consider that chestnut every bit as much of an annoying and thousand-times-refuted cliche as you would consider quotations of Psalms 14:1.

Positing a uncaused agent outside of physical reality (which, by the way, would remove it from the automatic, or at least self-evident, necessity of causation for itself, as this chain of events we came out of and formulate cosmological arguments about is physical) is less of a violation of (the much overrated and misquoted) Ockham's Razor than doing things like positing the existence of a multitude (or even infinitude) of other entire universes to explain how our own can be the way it is without design behind it.

You think it's rare for you to hear an argument you haven't already thought about?? I have yet to find anything in the world more predictable than the arguments an atheist will make, down to at least four or five successive responses in a row. There probably isn't a single one you could throw at us which I haven't already shattered here. But discuss it with me (in another thread) only if you decide you are prepared to endure attempts at conversion, at least to theism, because I have recently got way too sick and tired of all this--more with the interminable repetition of atheistic argumentation, in fact, than anything else--to have these endlessly-repeated-detail-by-detail debates for anything less.

[piXie]

When looking for ultimate causes, you stop at Allah. I stop at universe (or maybe universes, if there is ever strong evidence of that).

Very intelligent, may God guide you. Indeed man must stop somewhere.

But, why stop at the creation, when you can stop at The Creator?

Why stop at the forum, when you can stop at the Administrator?

[Mister Agenda]

1 - you cant be sure your children will survive even if you have less children - having children is a persons God given right - you cant realy take it away from them - its realy up to the people involved how many children they want. Ofcourse having more children is a good thing - it keeps the human race going.

I'll Let the women answer the question on the hijab.

peace

I do understand that...but in the USA and Europe, it is unlikely that any of your children will fail to survive, if you have eight children, 99% in 30 years you will still have eight children. With that kind of survival rate, averaging three children per family is plenty to ensure the survival of the species, and if our population dips we can always have more children to solve the problem. Of course I would not dream of taking away someone's right to have children...but I think it should be up to the family to decide how many children they want to have and when to have them. I hear 'whatever Allah wills' as an argument against contraception, but surely contraception only works if 'Allah wills it' too?

Zafran, would I be correct in thinking that you would prefer Muslim families have many children, but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?

Afifa approved my hijab question, thanks Afifa! It is in the Discovering Islam section.

[Mister Agenda]

Easier to stop at a first cause, than come up with a cockamamie and unintelligible fairytale for every last thing in existence no-- that is if you subscribe to Ockham's Razor?
Anyhow welcome aboard, my comment wasn't an invite for a dialogue.. contrary to popular beliefs we're not out to convert people and if we were, logic would dictate we'd do it on their turf.. so enjoy your stay and learn what you need..

best,

Thanks! I don't intend to bring up the existence of Allah, but I will respond to remarks about my lack of belief being unreasonable. I will take such comments as an invitation to a dialogue. I don't think it is very reasonable to insult my position and expect me not to respond.

It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.

I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else. Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge. I respect your right to your belief, and I do not expect you to agree with me, or to persuade you. I observe that we've never found a cause for something that was supernatural, and I conclude that it's natural causes, all the way down. I could be wrong, but if you want to make my position out to be unreasonable, it will take more than throw-away remarks I am supposed to suffer in silence: you will have to enter into a dialogue with me. Totally up to you folks, my reason for being here isn't to convince anyone they shouldn't believe in Allah.

I love my Bantu friends, they rely on me to give them good advice for living in America and they trust me with their children. I feel obliged to take their beliefs into account because my advice won't be helpful if I suggest things that are non-starters because they conflict with Islam. So I will have questions about that.

There is a lot of bigotry against Muslims in my country, especially since 9/11. People make big overgeneralizations about Muslims that concern me, we are in wars that I consider ill-advised, and there is a lot of paranoia. I seek information from Muslims because I like to be right, and getting my information from the source will make me right more often. I am not a champion of Islam, though. Every religion has its bad eggs who use their religon to justify crimes and oppression, and being able to be turned to this purpose easily is a flaw of Islam, in my opinion. However, it is a flaw shared by most other religions as well, and at least one secular philosophy (communism). I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims accountable for the crimes of a tiny minority, any more than I condemn my Lutheran or Episcopal neighbor for the crimes of the KKK or the IRA or the Lord's Army. When I hear people stay bigoted things about Muslims, I do speak up.

I have great hope for an Islamic Enlightentment that reconciles Islam to the modern world without compromising what is best in Islam. That's really your business though, not mine. I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be successfully engineered, if it happens it will happen organically, from within. I realize that opinion will probably not win me many friends here, but I am being honest with you. I hope similar things for my own country, that some day we will stop treating all problems as military problems just because we have a really strong military. This will never happen as long as we think things will change if we just elect the right people to run our government. It will only happen when we stop letting our government convince us that we have to go to war, and stop turning a blind eye to the forceful tactics used to meddle with other countries. I want peace and liberty for all people, but it's something they have to take for themselves, not something we can impose because we have the most planes and guns.

Sorry that turned into a rant, I guess I am passionate about these things. I don't agree 100% with any religion (obviously) but I strongly believe in the rights of conscience, of freedom of belief, and of free speech. In the current political climate of the USA and Europe, that puts me on the side of peaceful Muslims more often than it puts me on the side of those I call 'Christianists' (as opposed to the tolerant, decent, Christian) who are quick to see those rights as an obstacle when they are paranoid that every Muslim immigrant is part of a plot to impose Sharia law on the USA. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I tend to talk religion in the same way that I talk politics, I don't mean to make anyone's heart hurt. In this thread I'm still mainly trying to communicate who I am. If who I am is a problem, best to find out early, I guess. In other threads I probably won't be so talkative, and other people won't be as focused on my theological issues anyway.

[Ramadhan]

but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?

Islam never condemns nor approve. Islam is not an entity.
Sorry for going for accuracy, because I think atheists normally prefer accuracy.

[Mister Agenda]

You can start posting in other threads and sections, although the gender sections will always be a no go for you as a non muslim, which means also you cannot offer advice in the advice and suport section, but you can still start a thread and post reply in your own thread in that section. You will need to post 50 to qualify as a full member which will afford you some perks, such as ability to edit your own posts. Some sections are moderated, so threads or posts may need a while to appear.



AFAIK, majority islamic scholars agree that the use of contraception as family planning method is allowed.



Some sections are moderated, so depending on the availability of the moderators of the particular section that your started a thread, you may need to wait some time before it appears.
About hijab, they come in different modes, what pious and observing muslim women wear in Indonesia may not be the same as those in Saudi. The main thing is: they cover what needed to be covered, AND modesty.

Thanks, Ramadhan, that was very informative. I don't find it unreasonable, I'm not the person to give advice to Muslims on being Muslims, certainly! I think it's a good thing that women have a forum reserved for them, I understand that they have an expectation no men will be happening along.

[Ansariyah]

Welcome Mista'Agenda!

[Mister Agenda]

Agenda, I don't know why every atheist who ever gets into a cosmological discussion seems to think that the "but you believe that something is uncaused too; what created God?" evasion is some new one on us that is bound to positively floor and utterly disillusion us for our terrible self-contradictory logic, but theists consider that chestnut every bit as much of an annoying and thousand-times-refuted cliche as you would consider quotations of Psalms 14:1.

Positing a uncaused agent outside of physical reality (which, by the way, would remove it from the automatic, or at least self-evident, necessity of causation for itself, as this chain of events we came out of and formulate cosmological arguments about is physical) is less of a violation of (the much overrated and misquoted) Ockham's Razor than doing things like positing the existence of a multitude (or even infinitude) of other entire universes to explain how our own can be the way it is without design behind it.

You think it's rare for you to hear an argument you haven't already thought about?? I have yet to find anything in the world more predictable than the arguments an atheist will make, down to at least four or five successive responses in a row. There probably isn't a single one you could throw at us which I haven't already shattered. But discuss it with me (in another thread) only if you decide you are prepared to endure attempts at conversion, at least to theism, because I have recently got way too sick and tired of all this--more with the interminable repetition of atheistic argumentation, in fact, than anything else--to have these endlessly-repeated-detail-by-detail debates for anything less.

If you think I'm surprised you've heard the obvious criticism of this assertion, you are mistaken. I am only surprised it continues to be asserted anyway. My comment was intended to discourage the thread from becoming an argument about the existence of God, but that seems to be what is wanted by some.

I don't believe in multiple universes, there's some math that suggests them, but I regard it as entertaining speculation unless evidence is found to support it. I would not be surprised if supercollider experiments fail to produce that evidence. I only included the multiple universes notion for the sake of completeness. The only reason the argument 'everything requires a cause' requires a 'causeless cause' to get things rolling is that otherwise the argument rules out an ultimate cause. Saying there's a universal rule with an exception just for the thing you want to be true is trying to have your cake and eat it too, also known as 'begging the question' or assuming the thing you're trying to prove. If you don't assert everything requiring a cause, you can posit Allah without contradiction, but there is also then no contradiction in the universe itself not requiring a cause. I agree that before the 'Big Expansion' the physical laws of the universe are unknown, so causality may break down at that point. I also think that existence, the set of all things that exist, is not necessarily subject to the same laws as the things it contains. I am comfortable with not knowing what is as yet unknowable.

I suppose it IS easy to predict atheist responses. We don't have an assertion to back up. All we do is point out where your assertions don't add up. And I am humble enough not to think I have shattered your arguments just because I think mine are so brilliant. I am a fallible human being and could be wrong in a way that I can't see because of my own limitations. I think you're in the same boat as I am, though, regarding that. I'm pretty sure that God can not be defined into or out of existence, though; deductive logic is only sound if all the premises are true and the conclusion necessarily follows from them.

PS: My apologies for removing the link from your quote, I am unable to submit any posts with links yet.

[Mister Agenda]

Very intelligent, may God guide you. Indeed man must stop somewhere.

But, why stop at the creation, when you can stop at The Creator?

Why stop at the forum, when you can stop at the Administrator?

I stop at the things I know exist. I know Administrators exist, I could be one myself if I wanted (maybe not here....) but they are not an ultimate cause. The entire history of the universe led up to the technology that makes this forum possible and the human beings who founded and administrate it. It doesn't really stop at the Administrator, if you think about it. The same logic and experience that leads me to conclude 'Administrator' also leads me to conclude 'Administrator's parents', 'Administrator's childhood', and so forth. You're suggesting an 'Administrator' for the universe that is really nothing like an Administrator of a forum. The analogy only goes so far.

[Mister Agenda]

Islam never condemns nor approve. Islam is not an entity.
Sorry for going for accuracy, because I think atheists normally prefer accuracy.

Good point, I will try to be more precise with my language in future.

[Mister Agenda]

Welcome Mista'Agenda!

Thanks, Yanoorah!

I'm afraid I'm coming off as a bit argumentative with others here, that's not my intent. I am not trying to prove that I'm right, I'm only trying to show that my position can't be casually dismissed as ridiculous. In my opinion, if I were an 'evangelical atheist' such discussions here would serve my interests well, giving me the opportunity to present my case in a way that can't reasonably be objected to, since I am only answering challenges. I'm not evangelical though, so if anyone perceives harm in what I am saying, I am easy to get onto other topics.

I have no-and there can be no-argument with faith; and short of a revelation the best argument for any position based on faith is the behavior of the believers. Disclaimer: no matter how nice you are, it won't change my mind; if your beliefs have good consequences, that is nice, but good consequences don't make something true. I'll allow they may make something desireable, but my character is not constituted to believing something because it would be nice if it were true. More the opposite, my desire to believe something is true I take as a sign that I need to be more careful about being objective.

I appreciate the sincere welcomes. I even welcome the arguments, I'm just a little nervous about getting into them in a place where debating the truth of the religion of Muslims might not be appreciated. To me, arguing is like a sport, I enjoy it, and I think we all benefit from the mental exercise and friendly sparring, but I don't want anyone to get hurt by it or become angry.

I don't want to lose access to the knowledge here over pointless debates. This forum seems to be more tolerant than some Christian forums I've visited where the ban hammer seems to drop quickly on anyone who openly disagrees with the majority, but I haven't been around here long enough to be sure where the limits are and I feel like I'm already testing them.

[جوري]

Thanks! I don't intend to bring up the existence of Allah, but I will respond to remarks about my lack of belief being unreasonable. I will take such comments as an invitation to a dialogue. I don't think it is very reasonable to insult my position and expect me not to respond.

I haven't insulted your position, I have no regards to it!

It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.

I have no idea what this means, it is nonsensical at best. Existence hasn't always existed and you can't prove beyond theorizing one way or the other do two unprovable theories nullify one another? Your reasons will always come down to personal beliefs and convictions at the end of the day. One thing for certain mankind hasn't always been in existence, and there is a question of origins and a drive forward that should cover billions of biochemical, physiological and higher reticular function that goes unaccounted for 'scientifically' that will render any stance a fairy tale at best.. what it comes down to, is which belief system is more satisfactory to the heart and mind? it certainly doesn't render your position sound, provable or even scientific!

I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else. Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge. I respect your right to your belief, and I do not expect you to agree with me, or to persuade you. I observe that we've never found a cause for something that was supernatural, and I conclude that it's natural causes, all the way down. I could be wrong, but if you want to make my position out to be unreasonable, it will take more than throw-away remarks I am supposed to suffer in silence: you will have to enter into a dialogue with me. Totally up to you folks, my reason for being here isn't to convince anyone they shouldn't believe in Allah.

Again another nonsensical paragraph with alot of padding and no morsels! What is natural by your definition anyway? it is but an imaginary standard by which things are measured or compared. If we were all born cyclops that would be your definition of 'natural' .. in fact natural is quite possessive of those qualities you'd otherwise deem 'supernatural' if you were the one putting it together, give it the drive forward and the freedom to act of its own volition, given that, it is exactly what happens in your body and in the universe around the clock seemingly effortless has somehow dulled your senses to a false sense of acceptance, like it is owed you somehow.. If you'd lose a single enzyme like iduronate-2-sulfatase you'd pay the upwards of $400,000 to have it synthesized and introduced to your body by some sort of vector and you'd gladly pay it too (and in fact that is exactly how much it costs) to treat someone with Hunter' syndrome yearly!
You'd never think of a single enzyme let alone the millions working for you around the clock that you'd otherwise deem 'natural' and science as advanced as you think it is as a crux of your very ailing argument, can't find a cure for the common cold let alone offer answers to the origins of life!

I love my Bantu friends, they rely on me to give them good advice for living in America and they trust me with their children. I feel obliged to take their beliefs into account because my advice won't be helpful if I suggest things that are non-starters because they conflict with Islam. So I will have questions about that.

this is a non-sequitur!

There is a lot of bigotry against Muslims in my country, especially since 9/11. People make big overgeneralizations about Muslims that concern me, we are in wars that I consider ill-advised, and there is a lot of paranoia. I seek information from Muslims because I like to be right, and getting my information from the source will make me right more often. I am not a champion of Islam, though. Every religion has its bad eggs who use their religon to justify crimes and oppression, and being able to be turned to this purpose easily is a flaw of Islam, in my opinion. However, it is a flaw shared by most other religions as well, and at least one secular philosophy (communism). I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims accountable for the crimes of a tiny minority, any more than I condemn my Lutheran or Episcopal neighbor for the crimes of the KKK or the IRA or the Lord's Army. When I hear people stay bigoted things about Muslims, I do speak up.

It is inconsequential what people think of Islam or Muslims.. we're not in existence to coax people into loving us.. that is neither the purpose of life nor should it be a worry to the Muslim mind!

I have great hope for an Islamic Enlightentment that reconciles Islam to the modern world without compromising what is best in Islam. That's really your business though, not mine. I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be successfully engineered, if it happens it will happen organically, from within. I realize that opinion will probably not win me many friends here, but I am being honest with you. I hope similar things for my own country, that some day we will stop treating all problems as military problems just because we have a really strong military. This will never happen as long as we think things will change if we just elect the right people to run our government. It will only happen when we stop letting our government convince us that we have to go to war, and stop turning a blind eye to the forceful tactics used to meddle with other countries. I want peace and liberty for all people, but it's something they have to take for themselves, not something we can impose because we have the most planes and guns.

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,

The result of unjust wars, and occupations is that is will render the oppressors nothing but financial and human loss which they'll suffer of in this life and according to Islamic beliefs the hereafter as well.. So I say bring it on.. Afghanistan has been the graveyard of Empires though they've nothing of their own admission but men and rocks:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ard-of-empires

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-07/w...an?_s=PM:WORLD
from Alex the great, to the Mongols, to the Brits, to the Russians and soon to be the final nail in America's coffin. You can't send effete novices against an ancient people or foster hypocrites in our midst to appease your own kind!

Sorry that turned into a rant, I guess I am passionate about these things. I don't agree 100% with any religion (obviously) but I strongly believe in the rights of conscience, of freedom of belief, and of free speech. In the current political climate of the USA and Europe, that puts me on the side of peaceful Muslims more often than it puts me on the side of those I call 'Christianists' (as opposed to the tolerant, decent, Christian) who are quick to see those rights as an obstacle when they are paranoid that every Muslim immigrant is part of a plot to impose Sharia law on the USA. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I tend to talk religion in the same way that I talk politics, I don't mean to make anyone's heart hurt. In this thread I'm still mainly trying to communicate who I am. If who I am is a problem, best to find out early, I guess. In other threads I probably won't be so talkative, and other people won't be as focused on my theological issues anyway

Muslims immigrants do better than the local yokels according to the american govt.
Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html




I guess the fears and paranoia are borne of an inferiority complex..

best

[Zafran]

I do understand that...but in the USA and Europe, it is unlikely that any of your children will fail to survive, if you have eight children, 99% in 30 years you will still have eight children. With that kind of survival rate, averaging three children per family is plenty to ensure the survival of the species, and if our population dips we can always have more children to solve the problem. Of course I would not dream of taking away someone's right to have children...but I think it should be up to the family to decide how many children they want to have and when to have them. I hear 'whatever Allah wills' as an argument against contraception, but surely contraception only works if 'Allah wills it' too?

Zafran, would I be correct in thinking that you would prefer Muslim families have many children, but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?

Afifa approved my hijab question, thanks Afifa! It is in the Discovering Islam section.

It all depends on the intention of the individual and why they want to use contraception.

[Mister Agenda]

Yahya Suleiman, I followed your link, thanks for providing it. I appreciate the intent of consolidating all of your arguments, although I didn't get very far through it; I accept that you didn't calculate it to be insulting to atheists, I accept your disclaimer on the matter. However, I found it to be very insulting and unfair anyway, and don't see a reason to subject myself to it.

I find it gratifying that there are those on this forum who ask me what I think instead of telling me; and follow the Law of Charity in assuming that my disagreements are sincere and reflect my best understanding rather than being 'evasions' as you assume. It is possible to disagree with you honestly (really!), calling something others say an 'evasion' implies that they know you're right but are using an 'escape hatch' to avoid admitting it. If I think you're right about something we've previously disagreed on, I will change my position, and thank you for helping me be more right. I don't care about winning debates, I care about discovering truth, or at least getting as close as I can to it with my meager human intellect and perception. Again, I am grateful that anyone shows an interest in finding out what I really think instead of informing of it, but I don't expect that to be true of everyone.

It's actually one of the things I find irritating about some who argue against Islam. They find some 'sword verses' or something from the Qur'an onlline and then go about saying Muslims who don't want to take over the US government if they can aren't being 'true Muslims'. It's like me telling Jews or Christians that if they don't stone disobedient children to death they aren't being 'true Jews or Christians'. A religion isn't just its scriptures, it's also its people. They are alive, they breathe, they don't all agree on every jot and tittle of every surah of a pretty large body of literature. Islam isn't inherently at odds with science and modernity unless Muslims collectively make it so. I can't tell you what your religion means, no matter how much I read of the Qur'an and Hadiths, even if I learn Arabic. Even if I became an Islamic scholar, even a Muslim, my voice would only be one among hundreds of millions; and the most I can hope is a better understanding than most. I can never have a better understanding of the entirety of a living religion than the sum of all the people in it; because in large part all those people determine what the religion means. In the case of Islam the Qur'an and Hadiths provide the shores for a surging sea of people, but shores aren't precise in the face of the tides.

I try to know my limitations and understand that any victory I may think I gain may later turn out to have been a loss that I didn't understand fully at the time...and when I've lost, it can later turn out that I was victorious after all. I strive for rationality because that is the horse I think can best help me keep from falling too far behind the truth. It may not be the right horse, but I know certainty can't be trusted in the long run because it can't admit mistake if it goes off the course, it will just keep going in the wrong direction forever...and surely there is only one right direction and a multitude of wrong ones; so I'll stick with a horse that keeps looking around and changes heading if it notices the scenery doesn't match where it's supposed to be.

[Mister Agenda]

The Vale's Lilly, I see you are comfortable making up my side of the conversation, so I'll leave you to it.

[piXie]

I don't care about winning debates, I care about discovering truth

Thumbs up at that, not many people have that quality. Btw, how can a person who discovers the truth ever be a loser. Surely he is the ultimate winner.

I stop at the things I know exist

Sorry I keep asking you questions, but how do you know that God doesnt exist ?

[جوري]

The Vale's Lilly, I see you are comfortable making up my side of the conversation, so I'll leave you to it.

your side has been quit plethoric in fact for the mere few words I offered not as invitation for a dialogue but mere commentary on glaring misinformation. Nonetheless our comments are a direct reply to what you've proposed and I stand by my first statement I am not looking for a dialogue, rather correct what you view as 'scientific' for what it actually is, your own personal belief system!

best,

[IAmZamzam]

Mister Agenda, the reason I call your exhausted and predictable original argument an evasion is because, whatever the intentions of the person making it, that's still technically what it is. Diverting an issue by sending it into another issue which couldn't prove a danged thing about the real topic even if it's true is an evasion by definition. And the reason I get so fed up is that people always do exactly what you just did and what you will no doubt do again if we continue this: ignore what I actually said and make their counter-argument something they're pretending (or at the very least they overlooked) that I haven't already responded to it in advance. I take the trouble to already explain why it is not only logical to believe that God wouldn't have to be part of this chain of causation but that any other belief is downright illogical, and what ever comes of it? Nothing, because it's like I never said anything at all. And now that I'm having to repeat myself (the chain of causation being referred to is a physical chain of physical events and God is by definition nonphysical) you're just going to respond, if at all, the same way that everyone else does: either by ignoring what I've said again yet again or by forcing yourself to misunderstand it and therefore misrepresent it.

It's always the same: everyone ALWAYS does this. How can I possibly not react with the frustration and confidence in my own arguments that I do? And how can you accuse me of arrogant overconfidence in my arguments when you just said, in the very same breath, "I suppose it IS easy to predict atheist responses. We don't have an assertion to back up. All we do is point out where your assertions don't add up"? That doesn't sound to me like it comes from a person who's being humble about the possibility of his own arguments being wrong. I never said mine were brilliant either: in fact, all I'm doing is pointing out the obvious. Even if I happen to be wrong, if you were in my position would you still not be acting, or at least thinking, the very same way? Can you not see why I can't stand to do this anymore unless someone allows me to practice dawah on them in the process? It's unendurable! EVERY DAY, AND WITH EVERY PERSON, IT'S THE SAME THING!! So unless you're willing to waive what you said about not wanting anyone to try to convert you, just stop right here.

P.S. If you're unwilling to finish the atheism article then don't even comment on it! Neither is mandatory but the two things must go hand in hand.

[Mister Agenda]

It all depends on the intention of the individual and why they want to use contraception.

That sounds reasonable. Someone who already has four children and wants to be able to send them all to a good school would have a good intention to use contraception to give the children they already have the best chance for success in life. A couple who agrees they should both finish college before having children so they can provide the best for their children when they have them would be okay. A couple who discovers they both have a recessive gene for a horrible disease or that the wife can't safely bear children (and they didn't discover this until after marriage) would be kinder to resign themselves to no children under the circumstances. But a couple who thinks children would cramp their lifestyle would only be using contraception for their own convenience, putting their personal desires above the will of Allah.

I only use the example to test if I'm in the neighborhood of correct teaching on this matter. I am not planning to advise anyone not to have children, but if they are going to college it may be better to wait until after to marry, or use contraception until the degree is achieved. Not always, some have enough family support that they don't have to worry about childcare while they take classes and do homework, but not everyone is so fortunate. It can be difficult to do well in college, especially if you are taking care of a baby at the same time. I want all and their children to have the best lives possible, with prosperity and a good education. I am not hearing any way the teachings of Islam conflict with this, which is more than I can say for the teachings of Catholicism on the matter.

I think my advice would be: If you want to pursue a career that requires a college degree, it will be more difficult and probably take longer if you are taking care of an infant at the same time. If you want to do both, you need to make sure you have a committment from others to give you a lot of help with the baby while you're a student, and also when you are in your first year of work when your benefits and leave will be limited. It is okay to focus on childcare if that's what you really want, not everyone has to get a job outside the home or go to college to get a good job, and you can be a stay-at-home mother if you are willing for you and your family to do without some luxuries. Many women stay home while their children are small and get jobs when all their children are going to school. There are lots of options, but you need to figure out which ones are right for you and your husband-to-be before you jump into things.

For some reason, I have several girls I've tutored for years getting close to graduating High School and getting close to marrying (one has already married and had her first baby before she graduated High School). I just want them to have a realistic idea of their options. In a couple of years it will be a crop of almost all boys, but I expect they won't have the same anxieties, with them I might have to break it to them that they can't count on all being soccer stars.

[Mister Agenda]

Thumbs up at that, not many people have that quality. Btw, how can a person who discovers the truth ever be a loser. Surely he is the ultimate winner.


Sorry I keep asking you questions, but how do you know that God doesnt exist ?

No worries, you've been quite respectful, I don't mind answering questions, it's the walls of text I'm getting tired of in a 'here I am, pleased to meet you' thread. I don't know that God doesn't exist. I don't believe that God does exist, like I don't believe you have a $100 bill in your left front pants pocket. I could be wrong about that. It's not that I believe you don't have a $100 bill in your left front pants pocket. Without more information, I just don't have a good reason to believe you do.

I don't believe a lot of things I've heard of exist. If God does exist, he seems to have a desire to not be too obstrusive, and been pretty successful at that in regards to me. I am truly sorry if I'm being dense on the matter, but I just don't see a good reason for me to believe God is a real being. If I'm wrong, and one of the thousands of gods people have believed in is real and will be cross with me after I'm dead for not figuring it out, I hope whoever it is will be merciful and understanding. I'm doing my best with what I've got.

[Mister Agenda]

your side has been quit plethoric in fact for the mere few words I offered not as invitation for a dialogue but mere commentary on glaring misinformation. Nonetheless our comments are a direct reply to what you've proposed and I stand by my first statement I am not looking for a dialogue, rather correct what you view as 'scientific' for what it actually is, your own personal belief system!

best,

You're not interested in a dialogue, and I am trying to oblige you, since you seem to think that not being in a dialogue involves being quite plethoric. :)

Keep it up, with practice I'm sure you can get not regarding someone's positon down to 50 words or less.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

I am truly sorry if I'm being dense on the matter, but I just don't see a good reason for me to believe God is a real being. If I'm wrong, and one of the thousands of gods people have believed in is real and will be cross with me after I'm dead for not figuring it out, I hope whoever it is will be merciful and understanding. I'm doing my best with what I've got.

I believe there are many reasons to believe that God does exist..There is proof of his existence.

We do not see air nor do we see oxygen, how do you believe we humans came to know that air or oxygen exists?


If I may I ask, what is the purpous of life?

[Mister Agenda]

P.S. If you're unwilling to finish the atheism article then don't even comment on it! Neither is mandatory but the two things must go hand in hand.

I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.

A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.

I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.

If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.

[جوري]

You're not interested in a dialogue, and I am trying to oblige you, since you seem to think that not being in a dialogue involves being quite plethoric. :)

Keep it up, with practice I'm sure you can get not regarding someone's positon down to 50 words or less.

:haha: I must admit that tickled me a bit considering the compendiums of logorrhea that you've shared thus far =)
the question of the millennium shouldn't be on whether or not God exists.. it is whether or not there really is such a thing as a 'friendly atheist'..


best,

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.

A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.

I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.

If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.

Greetings of peace


Please do not feel offended, you do not have to leave.

Also please do continue to ask your questions and members will try their best to answer with respect.
We can all share our views and then correct one another with respect insha'Allaah it is only fair both ways..

This is a place which has many different feelings which we have to get used to

if that makes sense :-\ i apologise if i didnt

[GuestFellow]

I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.

A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.

I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.

If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.

No, please stay!

I'm interested to hear your views on other topics. If you dislike a member's response, ignore them. That is what I do.

[IAmZamzam]

It's entirely up to him, and I will be the first to understand if someone considers this board not worth coming to, but only if it's for the right reasons, and not because he himself made arguments that we naturally responded to and he couldn’t handle our reaction to the evasiveness of his responses. But just in case anyone here considers the martyrdom syndrome at work here having any basis in fact, let me show you yet again what he really did:

Positing a uncaused agent outside of physical reality (which, by the way, would remove it from the automatic, or at least self-evident, necessity of causation for itself, as this chain of events we came out of and formulate cosmological arguments about is physical)....

If you think I'm surprised you've heard the obvious criticism of this assertion, you are mistaken. I am only surprised it continues to be asserted anyway...The only reason the argument 'everything requires a cause' requires a 'causeless cause' to get things rolling is that otherwise the argument rules out an ultimate cause. Saying there's a universal rule with an exception just for the thing you want to be true is trying to have your cake and eat it too, also known as 'begging the question' or assuming the thing you're trying to prove. If you don't assert everything requiring a cause, you can posit Allah without contradiction, but there is also then no contradiction in the universe itself not requiring a cause.

The reason I get so fed up is that people always do exactly what you just did and what you will no doubt do again if we continue this: ignore what I actually said and make their counter-argument something they're pretending (or at the very least they overlooked) that I haven't already responded to it in advance. I take the trouble to already explain why it is not only logical to believe that God wouldn't have to be part of this chain of causation but that any other belief is downright illogical, and what ever comes of it? Nothing, because it's like I never said anything at all. And now that I'm having to repeat myself (the chain of causation being referred to is a physical chain of physical events and God is by definition nonphysical) you're just going to respond, if at all, the same way that everyone else does: either by ignoring what I've said again yet again or by forcing yourself to misunderstand it and therefore misrepresent it.

After which, of course, came another response from Agenda that did exactly what I predicted and ignored the issue yet again.

If he’s still reading this, and if it’s any consolation, I have very long passed the point where I’m the least bit capable of getting any sense of victory out of the same-old same-old. The only victory that could ever come would be me somehow managing to get through to someone in one of these conversations, and even that would not be my victory but theirs.

Mister Agenda was not hounded by anybody and he had the option from day one of not participating in this supposedly enforced and unavoidable debate. He has no one to blame for the way he feels but himself.

I try as hard as I can not to be so confident of my own arguments but when all ANYONE can ever do is pretend I haven't made them or pretend I made different ones, even after I've brought this fact up, can it really be easy for me???

[piXie]

:sl:

Chill out people...a person comes onto the forum to learn about Islam and some of us start jumping up and down like they have never met a person with a different belief.

Some brothers and sisters here are coming across as rather pompous which is not the way of the Prophet (pbuh). Very counter productive indeed.

Mister Agenda, this is a diverse forum with lots of different personalities...some annoying (u know who u r), some great....I get ticked off too but we take it in our stride. Please dont let it stop you from searching for the truth. Stick around :D

[al yunan]

Ce est la vie mon cher amie !

[Mister Agenda]

I'm back, ruining my dramatic exit! I realized I was being immature. Really, this is no worse than a Christian forum, and I'm sure if I were a Muslim or Christian going to an atheist forum I would have similar issues. I don't like putting people on ignore, but if I feel that frustrated again I will take advantage of that option rather than abandoning a whole forum because I'm irritated by just a couple of people.

I feel like I need to limit my responses to personal questions and challenges though. I thought I was just responding to people, not trying to start arguments. My purpose here is to learn specific things I have questions about, and I don't think it will be fruitful to me to get sidetracked. Not easy for me, I try to give complete answers to questions I think are worth answering, which means more opportunity to say something someone can't stand hearing. I'll try to do better, though.

I don't belong to any Christian forums anymore because it really isn't worth it to me to stick around because I'm already very familiar with them: many Christians know less about their religion than I do, but I was raised in a family that very serious about religion and read the Bible from a young age. I was also exposed to a variety of denomnations of Christianity. When I left those discussions I felt I wasn't missing much.

This is a different situation. I haven't read the Qur'an through (I started once but someone stole my copy!) and I'm an outsider to the religion. If I walk off I will need to find another source of information anyway. Even if I wind up putting half the forum on ignore because I've gotten testy in my old age, I will value the rest because there are Muslims in my life that I really care about and I feel I owe it to them to make an effort to understand their faith better than I do now. All kinds of little issues come up with the Bantu children: some are simple, like make sure there's no pork in their food if we stop at a restaurant. Some are trickier, like what to suggest for them to do if a dog comes up to them while we're at the park or if they're out walking. These are the kinds of things I'm looking for guidance on. Just little stuff, I'm not here to prove I'm smarter than anyone. I'll try to be better about letting myself get sidetracked.

Mods, I retract my request for my account to be cancelled, I was being hasty.

[Mister Agenda]

:sl:

Chill out people...a person comes onto the forum to learn about Islam and some of us start jumping up and down like they have never met a person with a different belief.

Some brothers and sisters here are coming across as rather pompous which is not the way of the Prophet (pbuh). Very counter productive indeed.

Mister Agenda, this is a diverse forum with lots of different personalities...some annoying (u know who u r), some great....I get ticked off too but we take it in our stride. Please dont let it stop you from searching for the truth. Stick around :D

I came back and read your post and took it to heart. Thanks!

[Mister Agenda]

No, please stay!

I'm interested to hear your views on other topics. If you dislike a member's response, ignore them. That is what I do.

Thank you, and you're quite right. Your post is one of the reasons I realized I was being silly. And it's largely my fault, I was being very up front about being an atheist, partly because I heard someone was pretending to be a Muslim on this forum and wanted to be very forthright about my position; but in retrospect I could have been honest without calling attention to it. For some folks it's like waving a banner in front of a bull, and I've been around long enough that I should have foreseen that reaction. I'm happy to share my thoughts on other topics though, on issues where people aren't so adversarial.

[Mister Agenda]

Greetings of peace


Please do not feel offended, you do not have to leave.

Also please do continue to ask your questions and members will try their best to answer with respect.
We can all share our views and then correct one another with respect insha'Allaah it is only fair both ways..

This is a place which has many different feelings which we have to get used to

if that makes sense :-\ i apologise if i didnt

Thanks, Pearl of Wisom! You are well-named. I will give myself more time to get used to how the forum works, I probably should have lurked longer to get a better feel for the dynamics before I opened my mouth.

[Mister Agenda]

Greetings of peace



I believe there are many reasons to believe that God does exist..There is proof of his existence.

We do not see air nor do we see oxygen, how do you believe we humans came to know that air or oxygen exists?


If I may I ask, what is the purpous of life?

I don't have trouble accepting the existence of invisible things that can be detected with our other senses or with instruments designed for the purpose. Air is very easy, I could blow in your face and make you blink if you truly doubted it. I even accept the existence of the electrons that are needed to make my words appear, and gamma ray bursts from billions of light years away. We didn't even know of those until we had satellites, but they've always been there. If God exists, he is not like these sorts of things.

I think we have to find our own meaning in our own lives. We don't have a purpose the way a hammer has a purpose as a tool for the one who owns it. But we can have purpose of our own. I find being kind to children and animals gives me all the purpose I need; everything else is icing on the cake.

Disclaimer for Vale and Vahya: this second part in particular is my own philosophy. I'm not making a universal claim or trying to start an argument over the meaning of life, especially yours. Find your own. :)

[IAmZamzam]

member X, I'm very sorry if it comes across as pompous and unIslamic when I show little tolerance for having my words be ignored by someone who is only pretending to respond to them the 912th time such an event happens to me here, but there is no thread in which anyone should have to put up with that, even in the "introduce yourself" forum. There is no such thing as an inappropriate time or place for standing up for oneself, unless maybe it's in the middle of the evacuation of a burning building or something. I am willing to drop the original issue with Agenda but I think you owe both me and vale's lily an apology. (You may as well have used our names for all the subtlety your post had!)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ Peace

Hi, everyone! I am an atheist

Welcome to the forum .

I always wonder how it's possible for anyone to be an athiest ? Just see & think about the creations of God Almigthy , is not that enough to believe in a Supreme power ?

I can understand if one does not believe in any specific religion but how one can beleive that we the human , the Universe ...all were created without a creator ..... how this belief is logical / possible??

uh , just noticed that u are upset and want to leave forum :(
I hope , u will change ur decistion .

Feel free to ask about Islam .

[aadil77]

for some reason this thread reminds of spider man: 'your friendly neighborhood atheist-man'

[piXie]

member X, I'm very sorry if it comes across as pompous and unIslamic when I show little tolerance for having my words be ignored by someone who is only pretending to respond to them the 912th time such an event happens to me here, but there is no thread in which anyone should have to put up with that, even in the "introduce yourself" forum. There is no such thing as an inappropriate time or place for standing up for oneself, unless maybe it's in the middle of the evacuation of a burning building or something. I am willing to drop the original issue with Agenda but I think you owe both me and vale's lily an apology. (You may as well have used our names for all the subtlety your post had!)

:salamext:

I wouldnt have said it like that, someone else sabotaged my post!

Look, none of us mean any harm but sometimes the way we come across (me included!), can end up hurting and offending people. I am sorry if that post has offended you or sister Lily, but Mister Agenda has been offended too. He also deserves an apology.

The Prophet :arabic5: said like for your brother what you like for yourself. :thumbs_up

We should take such opportunities to reflect and contemplate, to re-check ourselves and correct and improve ourselves. We all have room for improvement! :D

May Allaah forgive us and guide us all.

[Mister Agenda]

Perhaps we can go back and get a fresh start. I apologize to all concerned for any offense originating with me and I forgive anyone who has offended me, and I will try not to respond to posts at all if I can't do so nicely. I apologize in advance if I fail to live up to my desire to do better, sometimes I fall short of my mark. Do not be shy about reminding me of my desire to do better if that happens, please.

[Mister Agenda]

Salaam/ Peace



Welcome to the forum .

I always wonder how it's possible for anyone to be an athiest ? Just see & think about the creations of God Almigthy , is not that enough to believe in a Supreme power ?

I can understand if one does not believe in any specific religion but how one can beleive that we the human , the Universe ...all were created without a creator ..... how this belief is logical / possible??

uh , just noticed that u are upset and want to leave forum :(
I hope , u will change ur decistion .

Feel free to ask about Islam .

Thanks, Muslim Woman. I did change my mind about leaving the forum, I acted without thought and figured I hadn't been here long enough for anyone to be sorry to see me go, but sentiments such as yours convinced me I was wrong about that.

I know it can be difficult for people who have believed all their life to wrap their head around someone having such completely different notions of the world. And again, I haven't come to argue about that, I'm not interested in persuading anyone against their beliefs.

To partially answer your question, the word 'creation' does imply 'creator', in English and many other languages. If I am correct the universe isn't really a 'creation' at all, but more like an event or ongoing process.

There is a skeptics forum called JREF (James Randi Educational Foundation) where there are lots of people, including myself, willing to answer these sorts of questions at length. Here, I think I've written enough about why I don't believe the same things as Muslims do about the supernatural for people to understand where I'm coming from, and that level of understanding is all I'm looking for.

Nobody thinks the way they do becaue they think they're wrong. We all think we're right. Fortunately, we don't have to think the same way to get along. I am comfortable with you thinking I am foolish in my beliefs as long as you don't rub my face in it. ;D

[Mister Agenda]

for some reason this thread reminds of spider man: 'your friendly neighborhood atheist-man'

Atheist-man, atheist-man;
Does whatever an atheist can.
Can he talk? Listen, bub,
He's got logghorea in his blood!
Look out! Here comes the atheist-mannn!

[Mister Agenda]

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

There are two issues here: the best way to handle dogs, and the best way to handle their owners. People who keep dogs as pets usually love them and can be offended at hostility toward them. They won't understand why someone would act like that toward their pets, and the children's behavior toward dogs isn't helpful to them having a good impression of them.

I'm somewhat familiar with the teaching on this matter from reading other threads: dogs may not be kept as pets, but they should still be treated with kindness. I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

They have started to follow my more common-sense advice, like don't run from dogs (they will always chase someone who runs), except for the younger ones who are really afraid of them. Most dogs they encounter are friendly and expect to be petted or ignored, they can be startled by sudden actions they aren't expecting, which could lead to getting bitten. So far, no one has gotten bitten, and I've always been able to handle any dogs we run into when I'm with them, but they've told me about being chased, jumped on, and so forth.

If they can't touch the dogs at all, the best I can tell them is to hold still until the dog goes away, or if it is leashed, just ignore it. If all they have to do is wash their hands after or something, I can get them used to dogs so they aren't afraid of them anymore.

Any suggestions on the matter are welcome.

[aadil77]

If they can't touch the dogs at all, the best I can tell them is to hold still until the dog goes away, or if it is leashed, just ignore it. If all they have to do is wash their hands after or something, I can get them used to dogs so they aren't afraid of them anymore.

Any suggestions on the matter are welcome.

Yep, I think its less to do with them being 'impure' and more to do with muslims not having familiarity with dogs, so they may tend to be a bit defensive as they might not know how the dogs will behave near them

[Who Am I?]

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

There are two issues here: the best way to handle dogs, and the best way to handle their owners. People who keep dogs as pets usually love them and can be offended at hostility toward them. They won't understand why someone would act like that toward their pets, and the children's behavior toward dogs isn't helpful to them having a good impression of them.

I'm somewhat familiar with the teaching on this matter from reading other threads: dogs may not be kept as pets, but they should still be treated with kindness. I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

They have started to follow my more common-sense advice, like don't run from dogs (they will always chase someone who runs), except for the younger ones who are really afraid of them. Most dogs they encounter are friendly and expect to be petted or ignored, they can be startled by sudden actions they aren't expecting, which could lead to getting bitten. So far, no one has gotten bitten, and I've always been able to handle any dogs we run into when I'm with them, but they've told me about being chased, jumped on, and so forth.

If they can't touch the dogs at all, the best I can tell them is to hold still until the dog goes away, or if it is leashed, just ignore it. If all they have to do is wash their hands after or something, I can get them used to dogs so they aren't afraid of them anymore.

Any suggestions on the matter are welcome.

Well I'm a new Muslim who happens to love dogs (and has two), so I am at odds with most of the brothers and sisters here. I've agonized over this issue many times. At one point I was about to abandon Islam because of it. I've since decided that I'm just going to have to disagree with the general consensus about dogs.

I don't think Allah is going to care much as long as I worship Him. Dogs are trivial compared to the greatness of the Creator.

[IAmZamzam]

Two things:

1. As far as I know there is nothing in the scripture saying dogs are inherently evil or that we're allowed to abuse them. All it says is that we're allowed to keep them only if it's for some practical purpose like having a watchdog and not merely for companionship.
2. Do not--repeat, do NOT--go to the JREF forum under any circumstances. I left that place for a reason. I suppose there must be atheistic message boards out there that don't make the conflicts in this thread look like the music video for "Shiny Happy People" by REM, but the JREF forum is certainly not one of them! It's a festering heap of abuse and mockery, like so much of the atheistic/"skeptical" community's behavior toward believers these days. For all I know it might have changed for the better in the last year or so since I've been there but I wouldn't hold my breath. If Mister Agenda has been treated well there then that can only be for one of three reasons: because he's an atheist himself (they of course don't get it nearly as bad), he hasn't paid attention to the way 4/5 of the discussion of anything religious or supernatural goes, or he was danged lucky.

[Ramadhan]

I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

Touching dog is not impure, dog's saliva is impure (najis).
It was narrated from Abu Hurairoh, the Prophet Muhammad Sholallohu ‘alaihi wa sallam said, "Purify a bowl of someone when dog licked is by washing seven times”. And according to Ahmad and Muslim narrated mentioned,”One of them use of soil".
(Hadith Narrated by Muslim, 279, 91, Ahmad two / 427)

This rule applies not only to vessels after being licked by a dog, but also to other things such as our own skin.
Dog saliva contains their own pathogens which are harmful to human. During the time of Rasulullah there was no detergent to wash bowl, and dust is now known through science to contain antiseptic material which inhibit pathogens.

So touching dogs in itself does not make our skin impure, unless if you also decide to kiss the dogs or let the dogs lick you.

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

Sadly. there are many muslim children who do not receive good education in Islam, and bad treatment of dogs by children may be a case of that. But you also should consider that many children who are not familiar with dogs are scared by dogs and they may react aggressively towards the dogs.

[Who Am I?]

Well I should point out that my dogs also serve a practical purpose: they guard the house when I am gone, and they guard me while I sleep at night. So they're not only for companionship (though that is their primary purpose).

Really though, this is a trivial issue and I probably shouldn't even mention it anymore.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greeetings of peace

I don't have trouble accepting the existence of invisible things that can be detected with our other senses or with instruments designed for the purpose. Air is very easy, I could blow in your face and make you blink if you truly doubted it. I even accept the existence of the electrons that are needed to make my words appear, and gamma ray bursts from billions of light years away. We didn't even know of those until we had satellites, but they've always been there. If God exists, he is not like these sorts of things.

I think we have to find our own meaning in our own lives. We don't have a purpose the way a hammer has a purpose as a tool for the one who owns it. But we can have purpose of our own. I find being kind to children and animals gives me all the purpose I need; everything else is icing on the cake.

Disclaimer for Vale and Vahya: this second part in particular is my own philosophy. I'm not making a universal claim or trying to start an argument over the meaning of life, especially yours. Find your own. :)

so it seems you do believe in that which you do not see..

I agree with you, we wouldnt have known of any of this only people researched this, but what my basic point is that we didnt create none of this..We would have not come to realise any of this existed without our brain right? so without the brain we would be pretty dumb, im sure you would agree.. we coudlnt detect things without our senses, so im sure all of these are great things.

If God 'doesnt' exist, then how did all these wonderful things come in to existence?

lol @ the hammer example.. but a hammer was created, was it not?

I myself am aware of my purpose of life and so I am grateful, but what do you mean 'we can have a purpose of our own'?
Does this mean we do what we like? does this mean we choose to enter this world and leave when we like?
sorry if I misunderstood..

Indeed kindness towards children and animals is indeed a good act.

I hope i didnt confuse you..

[Gator]

Hello Mister Agenda,
Welcome to IB.
Thanks,
Gator.

[Mister Agenda]

Two things:

1. As far as I know there is nothing in the scripture saying dogs are inherently evil or that we're allowed to abuse them. All it says is that we're allowed to keep them only if it's for some practical purpose like having a watchdog and not merely for companionship.
2. Do not--repeat, do NOT--go to the JREF forum under any circumstances. I left that place for a reason. I suppose there must be atheistic message boards out there that don't make the conflicts in this thread look like the music video for "Shiny Happy People" by REM, but the JREF forum is certainly not one of them! It's a festering heap of abuse and mockery, like so much of the atheistic/"skeptical" community's behavior toward believers these days. For all I know it might have changed for the better in the last year or so since I've been there but I wouldn't hold my breath. If Mister Agenda has been treated well there then that can only be for one of three reasons: because he's an atheist himself (they of course don't get it nearly as bad), he hasn't paid attention to the way 4/5 of the discussion of anything religious or supernatural goes, or he was danged lucky.

Thanks, Yahya, I'm thinking the dog thing may be more manageable than it appeared to be at first. I will talk to the parents about getting the children used to dogs so they won't be so afraid of them. If they approve, I'll be sure to use a dog that is not a 'licker'.

I'm not sure Muslim Woman is interested in that much detail, I suggested JREF if she is because it is not explicitly an atheist site and she would not be the only Muslim member, but atheists are certainly in the majority there. Maybe Belief.net (I think that's it, I don't go there much anymore) would be better, more neutral (minority atheist), but it was kind of dead last time I went there, I don't know if she would get much of a response.

I'll assume she isn't interested unless I hear otherwise.

[Mister Agenda]

Sadly. there are many muslim children who do not receive good education in Islam, and bad treatment of dogs by children may be a case of that. But you also should consider that many children who are not familiar with dogs are scared by dogs and they may react aggressively towards the dogs.

Thanks, Ramadhan (and everyone else who helped with my question), I'm sure you are right. It's a minor problem, but making small things better adds up over time. I am better informed to enter into a discussion with the parents now about this and I appreciate the help.

[Mister Agenda]

Pearl, I couldn't reply with a quote because the forum detected a link or image, although I didn't see one. I'm trying different things. I'm down to just puttin my words, I hope you can figure out which of your questions I'm replying to! I already did all the writing and don't want to start over.

Agenda: Yes, if there is scientific evidence for it.

Agenda: I'm with you so far. All true.

Agenda: I don't know. We know a LOT more about the universe than we did 50 years ago, and I hope some day we find out, but it just might not be within our grasp to discover it. 'God did it' also does not explain how all these things came into existence, it is like saying it happened by magic. If God did do it, that answers 'who?' to a 'how?' question. We're far from the point where, scientifically, we can say if we're dealing with a 'who?' or a 'what?'.

Agenda: It was made from available materials by a craftsman or machine. Is that what you meant by 'created'? Which brings me to a question about Allah. The Christian God is supposed to have made the universe 'ex nihilio', 'out of nothing'. Is this also believed of Allah?

Agenda: I suppose we can leave life early if we like, but it's a shame if someone's life is so bad they are in a hurry to leave it. We certainly don't have a choice about being born (I'm glad I was, though!). Doing what we like has limits. We should not be allowed to be destructive to others and should be wise enough to not be destructive to ourselves. I'm certainly not saying there are no rules. But within the rules we are free to chart our own course. In fact we cannot do otherwise, even if we follow a course set out by others, that is what we have chosen to do.

Yes, I think I was misunderstanding you. You meant 'why are we here?' and I was answering 'what do we do while we're here?' My answer was about 'purpose IN life'. Assuming I am understanding you correctly now, I guess I don't find the question important. We're here, the only thing we can do is choose how to live our lives, so let's make the best of it. I realize 'why not?' in response to 'why are we here?' might not be emotionally satisfying to others, but it doesn't bother me.

Agenda: Thank you Pearl. Any confusion was my own, if I'm still confused, be patient, I'll get it eventually.

[Mister Agenda]

Hello Mister Agenda,
Welcome to IB.
Thanks,
Gator.

Thanks, Gator! I think I made some missteps but feel like I am back on track. The folks here have been very helpful in getting my post count up, I'll be a full member in no time!

I notice you are an atheist too, any advice to make my conversations more productive? Most of my personal experience with Muslims has been with children, or adults who are still learning English, so I haven't had these deep conversations with them before.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Pearl, I couldn't reply with a quote because the forum detected a link or image, although I didn't see one. I'm trying different things. I'm down to just puttin my words, I hope you can figure out which of your questions I'm replying to! I already did all the writing and don't want to start over.

no worries

Agenda: Yes, if there is scientific evidence for it.

I apologise im not sure what you are referring to here, evidence for what?

Agenda: I'm with you so far. All true.

Agenda: I don't know. We know a LOT more about the universe than we did 50 years ago, and I hope some day we find out, but it just might not be within our grasp to discover it. 'God did it' also does not explain how all these things came into existence, it is like saying it happened by magic. If God did do it, that answers 'who?' to a 'how?' question. We're far from the point where, scientifically, we can say if we're dealing with a 'who?' or a 'what?'.

Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.

Agenda: It was made from available materials by a craftsman or machine. Is that what you meant by 'created'? Which brings me to a question about Allah. The Christian God is supposed to have made the universe 'ex nihilio', 'out of nothing'. Is this also believed of Allah?

I meant it was 'created' in a way that everything is created. everything we have today in our life was a created. There is a creation of nature and there is creation of man.

Nothing cant be created out of nothing, so nope its not the belief of Islaam.

Agenda: I suppose we can leave life early if we like, but it's a shame if someone's life is so bad they are in a hurry to leave it. We certainly don't have a choice about being born (I'm glad I was, though!). Doing what we like has limits. We should not be allowed to be destructive to others and should be wise enough to not be destructive to ourselves. I'm certainly not saying there are no rules. But within the rules we are free to chart our own course. In fact we cannot do otherwise, even if we follow a course set out by others, that is what we have chosen to do.

So what are the reasons to the individual who is in a rush to give up their life and leave it, either it is because they havent realised the purpose of life or either they dont care or dont want to, do you think this is a wise option?

Yes, i agreed, we should not be allowed to be destructive, the cause to this not knowiing how to control ones self, if one doesnt learn how to control themself i.e how to become patient, control anger and learn to be just etc. then one is lead to destructiveness.

From where do we gain the knowledge to chart our own course? agreed, a 'course' set by others will always lead to disagreement and hatred. so there is only one choice, to follow a course that applies to every individuals rights, where we can all agree upon, giving people rights, learning to respect each other etc.

Let me give you an example of what i mean..a person builds a robot or phone or whatever..who do you think we should ask about how this this robot or phone works? if we have a problem with it, or how we are going to deal with it? where do we get the help from? we run to the one who builds it right? same way we as muslims(submitters) follow the command ofour lord, because he created us therefore he knows whats best for us, he taught us what we should stay away from because he told us it is harmful towards us, and same way he told us to do the good because it good for us.

Yes, I think I was misunderstanding you. You meant 'why are we here?' and I was answering 'what do we do while we're here?' My answer was about 'purpose IN life'. Assuming I am understanding you correctly now, I guess I don't find the question important. We're here, the only thing we can do is choose how to live our lives, so let's make the best of it. I realize 'why not?' in response to 'why are we here?' might not be emotionally satisfying to others, but it doesn't bother me.

You confused me a little here

Agenda: Thank you Pearl. Any confusion was my own, if I'm still confused, be patient, I'll get it eventually.

no worries. your welcome.

just hight light the text you want to reply to and you should see the word 'quote' pop up..if that doesnt work, either it is because you are yet a limited member, to become a full member 50 posts are required of you.

.. peace ..

[Mister Agenda]

I'm sure it will get easier once I'm a full member, I think I'll postpone replying to this one until then, Pearl. Except to say that when I said 'Yes, when there is scientific evidence for it', I was responding to your observation that I do believe in some things that are invisible.

[Mister Agenda]

Only 7 more posts until I'm a full member! Good night, all!

[Ramadhan]

For an atheist in this forum, one of the best way of nudging up your post count without getting yourself into much argumentative debates before becoming full member is through active participation in the puzzle and humour section.
And you don't hear this from me.
:X

[Gator]

Thanks, Gator! I think I made some missteps but feel like I am back on track. The folks here have been very helpful in getting my post count up, I'll be a full member in no time!

I notice you are an atheist too, any advice to make my conversations more productive?

Just enjoy. You'll probably be covering a lot of well trodden ground, but its definitley interesting to do it.

You'll get to know the different people on the forum about who are interesting to have a debate with. Also peruse some of the older posts (mostly to see how people debate).

And, just a note, as an atheist on this board, you are not a full member until Vale insults you and calls you a name.

Good luck!

[Flame of Hope]

Only 7 more posts until I'm a full member! Good night, all!

Welcome to the forum our brother in humanity, Mister Agenda!

I'm very pleased to make your acquaintance and I love the title of your thread.... Friendly Atheist! That was a real eye-catcher. :statisfie

I come from a family of atheists as well. And they are intellectuals like you too. :shade:
Though not as friendly. :exhausted

So I've been in the same boat as you and know what's like being an atheist. I actually used to argue with my school mates about the non-existence of God and even threatened to jump from a building to prove it. lol. Me can be very determined and hot-headed sometimes. Ha ha ha!

Anyway, I hope you will benefit much from your stay here. There are many wonderful and lovely members in this forum who would love to help you in any way they can.

So a big, warm welcome, respected brother in humanity. I really hope you enjoy your stay here.

P.S. Don't forget to have fun while you're here..... there's plenty of laughs in the Puzzles and Humor section. :)

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks for the tips, my friends, I didn't even know I could post there...not that I heard it here. :)

[Mister Agenda]

Pearl, I hope you don't mind if I pick out one bit of your post to respond to:

Pearl: Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.

There are lots of books that say lots of different things, many of which contradict each other. I tend not to trust them on supernatural matters. I believe there probably was a Trojan War, but I don't believe the parts of the Iliad about the Greek gods meddling in it. I believe there probably was an inspirational rabbi named Yeshua who is remembered to this day, but I think much of what is recorded of him is legend and myth based on a real person.

I'm interested in the other proof you mention, please don't be disappointed if I don't find it convincing, if our minds worked the same way, we would already be in agreement!

[Flame of Hope]

Thanks for the tips, my friends, I didn't even know I could post there...not that I heard it here.

Of course you can post there! There's a place called IB Town, the best place on the internet... I HOPE you will join. Hehe he! ;D

http://www.islamicboard.com/puzzles-...t-ib-town.html

[Mister Agenda]

The Muslim children I know love tricks and puzzles, maybe I'll suggest this site to the older ones (some of them might already be here).

I've got my post count up, but I may have some of them taken away: I told Unitarian jokes, which we Unitarian Universalists love, but Muslim Woman pointed out there's a rule against it. My bad.

[Mister Agenda]

Since I'm a full member now, provided my joke posts don't get taken away, I will try to address this now. I may have to start only responding to selected questions if the posts start getting too long.

Greetings of peace

no worries

Thanks!

I apologise im not sure what you are referring to here, evidence for what?

Evidence for invisible things.

Yes, we certainly do know more. how did then these things come into existence? the answers is God is who, and how is mentioned in many verses of the Qur'aan..also it is mentioned in many other religious books..and I am not just saying this just because the book says this, but because there is proof of it.[/paste]

I made a separate post about this.

I meant it was 'created' in a way that everything is created. everything we have today in our life was a created. There is a creation of nature and there is creation of man. Nothing cant be created out of nothing, so nope its not the belief of Islaam.

That sounds more sensible than the 'ex nihilo' business. Thanks for explaining that!

So what are the reasons to the individual who is in a rush to give up their life and leave it, either it is because they havent realised the purpose of life or either they dont care or dont want to, do you think this is a wise option?

I think we're in agreement on this. Except in very few situations, to choose to leave life early is not wise. If it is the only way to protect another, maybe it would be noble. If one was suffering terribly and dying slowly, it would be understandable.

Yes, i agreed, we should not be allowed to be destructive, the cause to this not knowiing how to control ones self, if one doesnt learn how to control themself i.e how to become patient, control anger and learn to be just etc. then one is lead to destructiveness.

Very true.

From where do we gain the knowledge to chart our own course? agreed, a 'course' set by others will always lead to disagreement and hatred. so there is only one choice, to follow a course that applies to every individuals rights, where we can all agree upon, giving people rights, learning to respect each other etc.

I have the same thoughts.

Let me give you an example of what i mean..a person builds a robot or phone or whatever..who do you think we should ask about how this this robot or phone works? if we have a problem with it, or how we are going to deal with it? where do we get the help from? we run to the one who builds it right? same way we as muslims(submitters) follow the command ofour lord, because he created us therefore he knows whats best for us, he taught us what we should stay away from because he told us it is harmful towards us, and same way he told us to do the good because it good for us.

There is more than one way to arrive at good behavior. I respect the Muslim way, it just isn't my way.

You confused me a little here

I wasn't at my most clear, was I? I need to make sure I really understand what you are asking about purpose, it is complicated stuff. When you ask 'what is our purpose?' do you mean 'why are we here?'

no worries. your welcome.

just hight light the text you want to reply to and you should see the word 'quote' pop up..if that doesnt work, either it is because you are yet a limited member, to become a full member 50 posts are required of you.

.. peace ..

And peace to you.

[Mister Agenda]

Yay, I can edit and everything. Thanks all, for your patience in a very long introduction thread!

[Mister Agenda]

I am thinking of adding an avatar. Are there special rules? I usually use a bit of artwork of a man wearing a wolf skin; but it occurs to me that either or both the bare chest and the fact that it's a drawing may be issues.

Any general suggestions? I'm sure a landscape would be fine, but maybe a little boring and doesn't say anthing about me. What about a cartoon character or photo of an animal?

[Who Am I?]

I thought about using a picture of my dogs as an avatar, but I figured that would not be appropriate. So I just use one of the generic avatars here.

[Mister Agenda]

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greeting of peace

Pearl, I hope you don't mind if I pick out one bit of your post to respond to:

I dont mind at all..

There are lots of books that say lots of different things, many of which contradict each other. I tend not to trust them on supernatural matters. I believe there probably was a Trojan War, but I don't believe the parts of the Iliad about the Greek gods meddling in it. I believe there probably was an inspirational rabbi named Yeshua who is remembered to this day, but I think much of what is recorded of him is legend and myth based on a real person.

How many books actually base their things on facts or evidence? I they did would you still ignore it?

I believe the term 'Yeshua' is used for Jesus (pbuh)? sorry if im incorrect

I'm interested in the other proof you mention, please don't be disappointed if I don't find it convincing, if our minds worked the same way, we would already be in agreement!

I am not dissapointed, and agree.

Thanks!

your welcome

Evidence for invisible things.

Okay as far as I am aware from the Qur'aanic verse is mentioned

"And with Him are the keys of the Ghaib (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in (or on) the earth and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but he knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record."[Al Qur;aan 6:59]

I will mention a few things mentioned in the Qur'aan in regards to the unseen, such as angels, jinn and much more. chapter 72 is a chapter named after the jinn.

"For each (person), there are angels in succession, before and behind him.They guard him by the Command of Allah. Verily! Allah will not change the good condition of a people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allah). But when Allah wills a people\'s punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector. "[Al Qur'aan 13:11]

Let me ask you a question (sorry if you dont like q's and if its a silly q :-\) do you believe that Afghanistan exists right? though i assume you've never been? or lets say Iraq? you've never been though you know it exists.

or another example..

you are desserted on a dessert :-\, whilst walking on your way to 'somewhere' you notice footsteps on the sand, so logically you would figure someone has been here.. an individual created the footstep

so another example is there exists a sky, day turns to night, night turns to day, or mountains,ocean, river etc etc, it means they didnt just show up themselves but they were created. ever wondered how mountains came into existence or many other things?

note: i didnt give proofs but i gave examples which lead to proofs.. if that makes sense..

I think we're in agreement on this. Except in very few situations, to choose to leave life early is not wise. If it is the only way to protect another, maybe it would be noble. If one was suffering terribly and dying slowly, it would be understandable.

There is more than one way to arrive at good behavior. I respect the Muslim way, it just isn't my way.

what would be your way?

Controlling anger in case one harms someone or themselves, to be just, to not lie , to not hurt ones feelings, to not talk about peple behind their back, think for a second talking about people behind someones back, to warn people from the wrong and to do whats good for the person..

I wasn't at my most clear, was I? I need to make sure I really understand what you are asking about purpose, it is complicated stuff. When you ask 'what is our purpose?' do you mean 'why are we here?'

Yes, what is the purpose of life, why are we here? according to you..

Is it that we live how we like in this great life and then death takes over when we dont even know the time of its coming and then its all over..

A apologise if there were parts i didnt make sense of myself and i hope i didnt offend you in any way. also again for the long post i apologise :-\

.. peace ..

[Getoffmyback]

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Ah, I can see how a photo of a dog might not be the best choice. I remember now seeing someone's avatar that was a picture of another animal, so I suppose that must be acceptable. I'll look around more and see what other examples I can find.

Man you're So cute . Specially with your ahhhh
I can see How a photo of a dog might not be the best choice !!! Man common don't be So cute cos atheiSt have this reputation of knowing religion more than religious people them self.

[Mister Agenda]

Getoffmyback, our reputation in that regard is only partially deserved. Atheists tend to have a broader knowledge of different religions than most theists (only on average, many exceptions). For instance, although it isn't saying much, I'm sure I know more about Islam than the average Christian in America, although I would think Christians who live in parts of the world with a higher percentage of Muslims would know more about Islam than I do. I may even know more about Christianity than the average American Christian. However the average Evangelical Christian, who takes their religion more seriously than most, is more informed on their own religion than the average atheist. I was raised Evangelical, but I haven't read the Bible 'religously' in a long time, I would expect a follower to know more.

Compared to Christianity, a much higher percentage of Muslims take their faith as seriously as the Christian Evangelicals do. I would be surprised to run into a Muslim who knows less about Islam than I do. Maybe if they were very, very new and hadn't studied much beforehand.

But yeah, I guess I was being a bit cute. I tend to alternate between being pedantic and being cute. Probably not attractive.

[Mister Agenda]

Greeting of peace

How many books actually base their things on facts or evidence? I they did would you still ignore it?

Mainly history and science books, probably millions and millions of them. But we're really talking about scriptures, right? They are going to be a mix, as they interpret real invents in the light of their faith. When Homer wrote the Illiad, it was just a 'fact' that gods meddle in the affairs of humans, so events were interpreted with that understanding. It doesn't mean Homer was being dishonest when he reported that the Trojan War was a result of a contest between three goddesses, that was the story he was familiar with and it was in line with his beliefs, so he recorded it that way. I don't ignore the Illiad, but I don't believe everything in it is literally true. I expect it is mixed with legend, that Homer took poetic license, and so forth. I think a storm at sea is a storm at sea, not Poseidon trying to delay travelers.

I believe the term 'Yeshua' is used for Jesus (pbuh)? sorry if im incorrect

As usual, you are correct. I have heard Muslims refer to him as something like 'Isha', is that right?

Snip

Let me ask you a question (sorry if you dont like q's and if its a silly q :-\) do you believe that Afghanistan exists right? though i assume you've never been? or lets say Iraq? you've never been though you know it exists.

Yes, I would be very surprised to learn that Afghanistan or Iraq don't exist. I haven't been but I have a half-brother and step-brother who have. It would be perverse not to believe they exist as it would require a huge conspiracy to fake all the evidence, which is much more difficult to believe than that these two countries (or many others I haven't been to) don't exist.

or another example..

you are desserted on a dessert :-\, whilst walking on your way to 'somewhere' you notice footsteps on the sand, so logically you would figure someone has been here.. an individual created the footstep

Yes, I know what footsteps look like, I understand how they are made and why they make an impression in sand, and I can make them myself. Again, it would be more implausible to believe they were faked given my knowledge of them.

so another example is there exists a sky, day turns to night, night turns to day, or mountains,ocean, river etc etc, it means they didnt just show up themselves but they were created. ever wondered how mountains came into existence or many other things?

Yes, all these things are the result of natural processes. Our planet turns, continents shift. The same sorts of things happen all over the universe in places where there is no one to wonder why they happen.

note: i didnt give proofs but i gave examples which lead to proofs.. if that makes sense.

Sure, I wasn't expecting you to give a mathematical proof. On these matters I think the best that can be done is to work with examples and analogies. To me there is too big a leap between 'I see a computer and know it was made by people' and 'I see a mountain and know it was made by a spirit'. It is natural to apply what we know to what we don't know, like 'shoes are made by someone' to 'everything is made by someone'. There is a gap between these things. To you it may seem a small step, but to me it seems like a yawning chasm.

what would be your way?

Controlling anger in case one harms someone or themselves, to be just, to not lie , to not hurt ones feelings, to not talk about peple behind their back, think for a second talking about people behind someones back, to warn people from the wrong and to do whats good for the person.

My way would be similar. We might disagree on details, but on the big things it is clear it would not be a good way of life if there was no expectation to be civil with one another. When the different religions agree on something, I think they are usually right; and they tend to agree that we should keep our tempers and keep at least a minimum courtesy.

Yes, what is the purpose of life, why are we here? according to you.

I suspect the only reason we're here is because we can be. I don't think anyone made us for a purpose.

Is it that we live how we like in this great life and then death takes over when we dont even know the time of its coming and then its all over.

Yes. All we know for sure is the life we have now, so we should make the best of it while we have the opportunity. Stories end, and that's a good thing, I think. A story without an ending is never complete. And every person's life is also a story.

A apologise if there were parts i didnt make sense of myself and i hope i didnt offend you in any way. also again for the long post i apologise :-\

.. peace ..

No worries. I shortened your part a bit, where I put 'Snip', hope you don't mind. We're still in my comfort zone. I know you won't be offended or take it personally if we get to the point where I say 'can we agree to say, in fondness, goodbye to this thread?" Peace.

[Ramadhan]

It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.
I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else.

You are right, it was more an expansion than a bang. Here's Allah described how he created heavens and earth (the phrase in the qur'an is used to denote the whole universe and everything in existence know to men):

He created the heavens and the Earth from nothing. (QS. 6:101) <-- absolute nothingness prior the "big bang"

the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder (QS. 21:30). <---- everything that it is today was one unit and split apart, "big bang"

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (QS. 51:47) <--- expanding universe.

Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge.

Are those other creation theories confirmed by latest scientific discoveries, or do they at least sound plausible?

[Mister Agenda]

Some of them do. The Greeks believed the universe was formed from an initial state of chaos which is a pretty good description of a maximum entropy singularity. Chinese myth envisioned a 'cosmic egg' coalesced out of chaos that formed the universe when it was cracked open. I don't see these superficial similarities to current scientific theories as a reason to believe they had 'insider knowledge' on the origin of the universe. With a thousand creation myths, some of them are bound to be closer to the mark than others.

There are only three things the universe can be doing regarding it's size: shrinking, expanding, or staying the same. It's not exactly a million-to-one shot to pick 'expanding'. It seems natural to me, our world has always expanded in terms of our knowledge of it, I think I would certainly not pick 'shrinking', even if I knew nothing of science and was making up a story to explain things to my children.

Creation stories serve a purpose, even if they aren't exactly right, or even if they are really, really wrong. They weren't intended to be scientific fact. The people who came up with them didn't even have a concept of scientific fact. They are stories that pass on a world view, a concept of a people's relation with the world around them. They last because they resonate with our hearts.

The Jewish Adam and Eve creation story sounds like a fairy tale. A woman is tricked by a talking snake into eating a magic fruit and that is where all the troubles in the world come from (in Greek myths, a woman named Pandora opened a box containing all the miseries of the world and let them out). But on another level, it is about very important things. The struggle within us between the part of us that wants to be good, even heroic (humans before the Fall) and the part of us that wants to give in to wrath and hate (the serpent) and why we do wrong even though we know it's wrong (the fruit of knowledge of good and evil).

As history it doesn't make sense. As allegory it makes perfect sense.

[Mister Agenda]

To all readers: remember I am not trying to convince anyone I'm right, just answering questions about what I think. I recognize that my opinions are my own. I also don't think anyone is foolish for not agreeing with me, I am a fallible human, I'm sure I am wrong about many things. Perhaps if I had been raised Muslim I would think very differently than I do now, or maybe it's in my nature and Islam would not have held me any better than Christian fundamentalism.

Obviously I don't think I'm wrong, or I would change my mind. If it turns out I'm right, it is no credit to me, it's not because I am smart or educated, it's just that I am skeptical. I don't think I am able to believe in supernatural things at this point without experiencing such a thing myself and having something after as evidence that I wasn't hallucinating. I think that's a virtue, but if I'm wrong, maybe it's a fault.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Yes. All we know for sure is the life we have now, so we should make the best of it while we have the opportunity. Stories end, and that's a good thing, I think. A story without an ending is never complete. And every person's life is also a story.

This is all I will end this discussion. It seems we disagree on the main structure of the discussion/argument whatever you may wish to call it..

I hope you the best in life in figuring out what the purpose of life is. just like there is a purpose of how and why a new born baby is born and once reached the old age is wrinkly and weak. or just like an obese person's purpose is to lose weight, they will go through many difficulties and trials to reach their goal ...

Though i do hope that maybe you learnt something regarding Islaam whether you agree or disagree.

.. peace ..

[Getoffmyback]

Did you speak in tongues ? And congratlations that Yo're not doing it anymore

[Ramadhan]

From the general comment that you fling against qur'an, I assume that you have not read qur'an in its entirety and may not even read/understand the history of it.

e Greeks believed the universe was formed from an initial state of chaos which is a pretty good description of a maximum entropy singularity. Chinese myth envisioned a 'cosmic egg' coalesced out of chaos that formed the universe when it was cracked open. I don't see these superficial similarities to current scientific theories as a reason to believe they had 'insider knowledge' on the origin of the universe

Can you please provide more authentic written details and sources on those greek and chinese creation theory so we can see how close they were to the now scientifically accepted theory on the creation of our universe?
I have provided you with the translation of the qur'an verses (I can give you the authentic qur'an verses if you can read arabic).

With a thousand creation myths, some of them are bound to be closer to the mark than others.

So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?
Keep in mind that unlike the possible chinese or greek belief you mentioned, the verses are not isolated statements and one off, they are part of thousands verses, which were individually revealed (by him if you mind the divine origin) to address specific situations throughout 20+ years, and yet when completed, they compiled in such flawless and fluid syntax that even orientalists today still admire at the beauty and lyrical quality of the verses, not to mention the inherent numerical coincidences (I am not using the word "miracle" as I know atheists are allergic to such word) which no one today has been able to explain how it was achieved in the 7th century arabia.
the verses also address all subjects from the smallest units to the largest ones, from human pre existance to after death, from spiritual enhancements and fulfillments to the practical realities of personal physical and mental health, politics, governance, finance, marriage, etc to the solutions to the ills of individuals and society, to the guidelines for the continuous betterment and improvement of individuals and societies.

So do those greek and chinese creation theories contained in such book?
The closer you might get ("closer" in this context is extremely generous) is creation theories contained in the torah, bible or bhagawat gita. And we know how absurd they are.
How is it the jews (who lived in the oldest civilizations area), the christians (who lived in the peak of roman and hellenistic culture), the hindus (who lived among the oldest and great civilization) and the chinese could not come up with accurate observations and predictions of the physical world?
Why is it that Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate who lived in 7th century desert arabia by himself alone made accurate shot after accurate shot at the physical world (expanding universe, all living things made from water, etc) while seemingly these amazing shots just an afterthought in among the thousands of interconnected verses?

There are only three things the universe can be doing regarding it's size: shrinking, expanding, or staying the same. It's not exactly a million-to-one shot to pick 'expanding'. It seems natural to me, our world has always expanded in terms of our knowledge of it, I think I would certainly not pick 'shrinking', even if I knew nothing of science and was making up a story to explain things to my children.

It is easy to say now because you lived in 21st century. Not many scientists even believed that the universe was expanding, until edwin hubble confirmed it.
Keep in mind that the Qur'an made definitive statement: The universe was expanded from its initial state. and that the universe came from absolute nothingness.
That is not vague, and if it were not true, then Muhammad SAW had lied, right?
This is what the greeks believed:
The earliest quantitative geocentric models were developed by the ancient Greeks, who proposed that the universe possesses infinite space and has existed eternally, but contains a single set of concentric spheres of finite size – corresponding to the fixed stars, the Sun and various planets – rotating about a spherical but unmoving Earth.
Isn't it funny whenever the qur'an says something about some natural process, such as living things made of water, enemies of Islam quickly claimed "Muhammad must have stolen the idea from the greeks philosophers!" and when the greek philosophers were all wrong on all points about the universe, the same people quickly claim "Well of course, it was easy to observe the universe is expanding from an initial extremely dense and small point".

Creation stories serve a purpose, even if they aren't exactly right, or even if they are really, really wrong. They weren't intended to be scientific fact. The people who came up with them didn't even have a concept of scientific fact. They are stories that pass on a world view, a concept of a people's relation with the world around them. They last because they resonate with our hearts.

This is your opinion, but not based on evidence or facts.

[Mister Agenda]

Greetings of peace



This is all I will end this discussion. It seems we disagree on the main structure of the discussion/argument whatever you may wish to call it..

I hope you the best in life in figuring out what the purpose of life is. just like there is a purpose of how and why a new born baby is born and once reached the old age is wrinkly and weak. or just like an obese person's purpose is to lose weight, they will go through many difficulties and trials to reach their goal ...

Though i do hope that maybe you learnt something regarding Islaam whether you agree or disagree.

.. peace ..

Thanks, Pearl, I'm sure I will learn new things about Islam while I am here. I wish you the very best in life, and for your family as well. Peace.

[Mister Agenda]

Did you speak in tongues ? And congratlations that Yo're not doing it anymore

Yes, I did. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not doing it anymore, too. :)

[Mister Agenda]

From the general comment that you fling against qur'an, I assume that you have not read qur'an in its entirety and may not even read/understand the history of it.

Can you please provide more authentic written details and sources on those greek and chinese creation theory so we can see how close they were to the now scientifically accepted theory on the creation of our universe?
I have provided you with the translation of the qur'an verses (I can give you the authentic qur'an verses if you can read arabic).

So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?
Keep in mind that unlike the possible chinese or greek belief you mentioned, the verses are not isolated statements and one off, they are part of thousands verses, which were individually revealed (by him if you mind the divine origin) to address specific situations throughout 20+ years, and yet when completed, they compiled in such flawless and fluid syntax that even orientalists today still admire at the beauty and lyrical quality of the verses, not to mention the inherent numerical coincidences (I am not using the word "miracle" as I know atheists are allergic to such word) which no one today has been able to explain how it was achieved in the 7th century arabia.
the verses also address all subjects from the smallest units to the largest ones, from human pre existance to after death, from spiritual enhancements and fulfillments to the practical realities of personal physical and mental health, politics, governance, finance, marriage, etc to the solutions to the ills of individuals and society, to the guidelines for the continuous betterment and improvement of individuals and societies.

So do those greek and chinese creation theories contained in such book?
The closer you might get ("closer" in this context is extremely generous) is creation theories contained in the torah, bible or bhagawat gita. And we know how absurd they are.
How is it the jews (who lived in the oldest civilizations area), the christians (who lived in the peak of roman and hellenistic culture), the hindus (who lived among the oldest and great civilization) and the chinese could not come up with accurate observations and predictions of the physical world?
Why is it that Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate who lived in 7th century desert arabia by himself alone made accurate shot after accurate shot at the physical world (expanding universe, all living things made from water, etc) while seemingly these amazing shots just an afterthought in among the thousands of interconnected verses?

It is easy to say now because you lived in 21st century. Not many scientists even believed that the universe was expanding, until edwin hubble confirmed it.
Keep in mind that the Qur'an made definitive statement: The universe was expanded from its initial state. and that the universe came from absolute nothingness.
That is not vague, and if it were not true, then Muhammad SAW had lied, right?
This is what the greeks believed:
The earliest quantitative geocentric models were developed by the ancient Greeks, who proposed that the universe possesses infinite space and has existed eternally, but contains a single set of concentric spheres of finite size – corresponding to the fixed stars, the Sun and various planets – rotating about a spherical but unmoving Earth.
Isn't it funny whenever the qur'an says something about some natural process, such as living things made of water, enemies of Islam quickly claimed "Muhammad must have stolen the idea from the greeks philosophers!" and when the greek philosophers were all wrong on all points about the universe, the same people quickly claim "Well of course, it was easy to observe the universe is expanding from an initial extremely dense and small point".

This is your opinion, but not based on evidence or facts.

I don't think we should continue this conversation, Ramadhan. Clearly you are offended by my previous answers, and if what I have said already offends you, I don't see how answering these further questions won't continue to do so. Peace.

[Getoffmyback]

Even if agenda read the entire quran in english it will never sound and feel like in arabic So that's another things . People who reads the quran in english are reading a book which is not considered quran it's only a book So they are not reading the words of god. cos muslim scholars made a fatwa that if the quran is translated to another language it will become a book not the word of god cos the word of god came in arabic!

Lets say the quran is unique But the miracles side is What i don't absorbe cos I went to a site dedicated to quran miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic!

The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place.

Seriously What is this! It says we raised him not it . And if you read previous verses they are talking about moses and Idris and other prophets , and i guess this verse was refering to prophets not objects. And So on they used 19:57 to refer to the year when sputnic was launched! There is nothing miraculous about that! Cos you can use the verse number and the interpretation of a single verse and use it to refere to anything or any event that happened back in 1957 . So i don't understand such websites.

[Ramadhan]

Lets say the quran is unique But the miracles side is What i don't absorbe cos I went to a site dedicated to quran miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic! The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place.

Majority muslims don't claim that. You went to a fringe website. Do you actually give your opinion about certain issue based on what a single internet website say?

Now, do you not agree on the main points of qur'anic miracles?

[Ramadhan]

I don't think we should continue this conversation, Ramadhan. Clearly you are offended by my previous answers, and if what I have said already offends you, I don't see how answering these further questions won't continue to do so. Peace.

Honestly, I actually am not offended at all with your answers. For me, your post just lacked details and I am enquiring about those details.
I hope we can continue this discussion, but if you don't feel like it, I am not forcing you.

[Getoffmyback]

Majority muslims don't claim that. You went to a fringe website. Do you actually give your opinion about certain issue based on what a single internet website say?

Now, do you not agree on the main points of qur'anic miracles?

Give me a website of your choice . I'm interested in learning about miracles.

[Who Am I?]

I just want to break in and say that this has to be the longest introduction thread in IB.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument... ;D

[Mister Agenda]

I just want to break in and say that this has to be the longest introduction thread in IB.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument... ;D

LOL, I was thinking the same thing!

[Mister Agenda]

Honestly, I actually am not offended at all with your answers. For me, your post just lacked details and I am enquiring about those details.
I hope we can continue this discussion, but if you don't feel like it, I am not forcing you.

I'm glad you weren't offended, you have been very helpful to me and I want to stay on your good side! :)

It is a lot to go into. Imagine if you were to go to a Hindu site. You are in the position of not believing their scriptures reflect the true nature of divinity, although you might concede they have some good morals (where they do not conflict with your own) and some real history. Some of the Hindus on the site believe that it is you that is mistaken. You get into it a little more, and they point out that you are not an expert on their scriptures, so how can you judge them to be false? How far can your debate go and be productive?

I don't at all feel like you're trying to force me, and you're being a gentleman about my reservations, which I appreciate. Our points of view are very different, and if we're not an impasse, I think we're coming up on one, soon. It didn't even occur to me that what I was saying would be taken as 'flinging accusations at the Qur'an'. I should have, because we are talking about a book you consider both sacred and perfect. Even discussing the possibility that it might not be must feel hostile. I don't hold anything as sacred as that, but I remember when I did.

I feel I may be a little disappointing as an atheist member, this is your opportunity to satisfy some curiosity about atheists on your own turf, but I'm not really holding up my end. I went through a more argumentative phase when I was a little younger, but you missed it!

[Who Am I?]

I used to be an atheist myself a long time ago. I hated every religion and despised the concept of God. A lot of it was because I didn't really like myself very much. "God can't exist, because if He created me, why am I so useless?" That was my reasoning behind there not being a God. Well, that, and all the evils done by mankind throughout history.

[Ramadhan]

Give me a website of your choice . I'm interested in learning about miracles.

If I'm not mistaken, you once claimed you are an arab muslim, so I would guess you are able to read the Qur'an.
Here's the website:
http://quranflash.com/
Please let me know if you've finished reading it and then we can discuss further.

[Ramadhan]

It is a lot to go into. Imagine if you were to go to a Hindu site. You are in the position of not believing their scriptures reflect the true nature of divinity, although you might concede they have some good morals (where they do not conflict with your own) and some real history. Some of the Hindus on the site believe that it is you that is mistaken. You get into it a little more, and they point out that you are not an expert on their scriptures, so how can you judge them to be false? How far can your debate go and be productive?

I actually was not going to argue about other scriptures, as you said, I may not know much about them, and especially since this thread may not be appropriate thread to do it.
Our discussion started off when I presented the verses of the qur'an that correspond with your statement about the origin of our universe, and ones which you dismissed as being coincidental and that Muhammad (pbuh) made the right bets, and you stated that the ancient chinese and greeks have also made similar accurate belief about the origin of the universe. First, I wanted to know more about those chinese and greek beliefs, as I have not heard about them, so therefore I inquired about the authentic details.
I also made the argument that the "bets" that Muhammad (pbuh) successfully made were not standalone statements, rather part and parcel of much bigger package, this is to respond to your dismissal of the verses.

As for the hindu scriptures, it remind me of another post (the last post of this page of this now closed thread http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...r-quran-2.html):

Quran has many instances where it is improbable for them to occur by chance. Sure, other possibility is that Muhammad (saw) could have intended it that way. that is also unlikely specially when he did not write the Quran down and did not keep track of things in his brain and did not sit down to analyze what is where.

many other religious books can also have such features. They are, however, intended by the authors. As for as historicity of Quran is concerned, there is no evidence that muhammad (pbuh) intended all those numerical things.

For example, ancient Hindu scriptures were already thinking about the age of cosmos/earth in billions of years while Judeo-Christian thought was stuck to the Young age concept of Earth being 6000 years old ..... but lets look at how many other things those Hindu scriptures got wrong. Quran does not get anything wrong about the physical world as far as the observational phenomenon are concerned.

I don't at all feel like you're trying to force me, and you're being a gentleman about my reservations, which I appreciate. Our points of view are very different, and if we're not an impasse, I think we're coming up on one, soon. It didn't even occur to me that what I was saying would be taken as 'flinging accusations at the Qur'an'. I should have, because we are talking about a book you consider both sacred and perfect. Even discussing the possibility that it might not be must feel hostile. I don't hold anything as sacred as that, but I remember when I did.

I actually don't mind discussing possibility that the Qur'an might not be of divine origin, as long as we present details, facts and evidence, and not merely throw around general statements such as "it's a book made up by man as a collection of stories to make man feel good about himself", which in my opinion shows the lack of even minutae knowledge of the issue, and not helpful in advancing the discussion.

I feel I may be a little disappointing as an atheist member, this is your opportunity to satisfy some curiosity about atheists on your own turf, but I'm not really holding up my end. I went through a more argumentative phase when I was a little younger, but you missed it!

Don't worry, we've had enough fun with other atheist members here :)
Just peruse the past threads in the comparative religion section.

[Mister Agenda]

I used to be an atheist myself a long time ago. I hated every religion and despised the concept of God. A lot of it was because I didn't really like myself very much. "God can't exist, because if He created me, why am I so useless?" That was my reasoning behind there not being a God. Well, that, and all the evils done by mankind throughout history.

I'm sorry to hear that. Everyone has worth, and often the ones who feel they don't have more than many who are very certain they are worthy. Some people devalue things like kindness and compassion, although they're worth more than gold.

[Mister Agenda]

I actually was not going to argue about other scriptures, as you said, I may not know much about them, and especially since this thread may not be appropriate thread to do it.
Our discussion started off when I presented the verses of the qur'an that correspond with your statement about the origin of our universe, and ones which you dismissed as being coincidental and that Muhammad (pbuh) made the right bets, and you stated that the ancient chinese and greeks have also made similar accurate belief about the origin of the universe. First, I wanted to know more about those chinese and greek beliefs, as I have not heard about them, so therefore I inquired about the authentic details.
I also made the argument that the "bets" that Muhammad (pbuh) successfully made were not standalone statements, rather part and parcel of much bigger package, this is to respond to your dismissal of the verses.

As for the hindu scriptures, it remind me of another post (the last post of this page of this now closed thread http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...r-quran-2.html):

I actually don't mind discussing possibility that the Qur'an might not be of divine origin, as long as we present details, facts and evidence, and not merely throw around general statements such as "it's a book made up by man as a collection of stories to make man feel good about himself", which in my opinion shows the lack of even minutae knowledge of the issue, and not helpful in advancing the discussion.

Don't worry, we've had enough fun with other atheist members here :)
Just peruse the past threads in the comparative religion section.

Oh good, I'm glad it isn't all on me. :)

Thanks for the tip.

I may revisit your earlier post later. I trust you when you say you won't be offended, provided I'm not intentionally being offensive.

[Who Am I?]

I'm sorry to hear that. Everyone has worth, and often the ones who feel they don't have more than many who are very certain they are worthy. Some people devalue things like kindness and compassion, although they're worth more than gold.

Well I used to have crippling low self esteem but it has gotten a lot better over the years. I still have my moments of doubt and insecurity (who doesn't?), but nothing like I did in my teens and early 20's.

[Mister Agenda]

Like they say, it gets better.

[Mister Agenda]

So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?

Looking into this, focusing on sura 51:47, I find that prior to confirmation that the universe is expanding, this sura was never translated with the word 'expanding' and currently, English seems to be the only language in which it is translated as 'expanding'. For instance, the 1934 translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali has it as: 'With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.' I also ran across some verses which were taken as supporting that the universe would eventually cease expanding and start to contract. Although this was once a popular hypothesis, it did not survive the test of observation. For about 13 years we've know the universe is not only expanding, it is expanding at an ever-increasing, and will never contract, only continue to expand forever.

Given the acknowledged difficulty of translating the Qur'an into other languages because of its poetic nature, it is clearly easy to interpret in different ways. Although it is well-preserved in Arabic, it seems translation is susceptible to changing with the times. Attempting to tie sacred scriptures to science, which is always in the process of updating itself as it discovers new evidence that requires modification of what was previously thought, seems to me to short-change both the sacredness of the scriptures and the aims of science. Faith does not need validation from science, and the idea of the different faiths attempting to score points off each other by winning a contest of 'which scriptures align with science best'...I think it misses the true value of the writings. It is certainly not just Muslims who do this, Christians are quick to pour over their scriptures when scientists discover something new so they can say 'See, it's in the Bible!'. I've seen Hindus make similar claims.

If the Qur'an is superior in spiritual matters, I don't see why it should also need to be a text on modern physics.

[Ramadhan]

Looking into this, focusing on sura 51:47, I find that prior to confirmation that the universe is expanding, this sura was never translated with the word 'expanding' and currently, English seems to be the only language in which it is translated as 'expanding'. For instance, the 1934 translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali has it as: 'With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.'

I am sure you even acknowledge that a translation can never do justice, so here it is several translation of the verse:

Sahih International
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Muhsin Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Dr. Ghali
And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide.

And if you read it after QS. 21:30

Sahih International
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
Muhsin Khan
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Pickthall
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
Yusuf Ali
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Shakir
Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
Dr. Ghali
And have not the ones who disbelieved seen that the heavens and the earth were an integrated (mass), then We unseamed them, and of water We have made every living thing? Would they then not believe?

Tell me if there were even a single statement from any civilization that so accurately described the first state of the universe and its expansion?

[Ramadhan]

I also ran across some verses which were taken as supporting that the universe would eventually cease expanding and start to contract. Although this was once a popular hypothesis, it did not survive the test of observation. For about 13 years we've know the universe is not only expanding, it is expanding at an ever-increasing, and will never contract, only continue to expand forever.

The universe is expanding, but how do you know that at one point it will not contract and shrink back? The more favorable opinion is now it will extend forever, but unless you actually believe that scientists have 100% data and and are always 100% correct in their future predictions, you would certainly believe that opinions are subject to endless revisions when more data coming in?

Given the acknowledged difficulty of translating the Qur'an into other languages because of its poetic nature, it is clearly easy to interpret in different ways.

Hence we only rely on the interpretations of the people and scholars who do have knowledge about Qur'an and ahadeeth, and not just on anyone.

Although it is well-preserved in Arabic, it seems translation is susceptible to changing with the times.

Do you not find it unique and amazing that a living book, is 100% preserved?

Attempting to tie sacred scriptures to science, which is always in the process of updating itself as it discovers new evidence that requires modification of what was previously thought, seems to me to short-change both the sacredness of the scriptures and the aims of science.

AFAIK, no one is trying to tie Qur'an to science. However, there are verses in the Qur'an that clearly is an observation of the universe. And if the verses are in contradiction of the 100% proven observations of the universe, then you can argue that the qur'an is not from the creator of the universe, right?

Faith does not need validation from science, and the idea of the different faiths attempting to score points off each other by winning a contest of 'which scriptures align with science best'...I think it misses the true value of the writings.

In the Qur'an, Allah SWT tell us to "think" "read" "ponder", basically to use our observations of the natural and to use our common sense and intelligence to arrive at our faith. Islam is not based on blind faith like other religions.
There are many other stronger aspects of Qur'an that qualify it as being miraculous and proof that it is from the divine, and the scientific miracles is just a portion of it.

It is certainly not just Muslims who do this, Christians are quick to pour over their scriptures when scientists discover something new so they can say 'See, it's in the Bible!'. I've seen Hindus make similar claims.

As I said in my previous comment and quoted a post from another member about hindu scriptures, they might have made one or two claims, but you close your eyes, and then open a page of hindu scripture or bible at random, and I can guarantee that you will find an error/contradictions/other things that prove it cannot be possibly from the creator of heavens and earth.

If the Qur'an is superior in spiritual matters, I don't see why it should also need to be a text on modern physics.

No one has ever said qur'an is a text on modern physics. I think you are making up things.

[Mister Agenda]

I not only agree translation cannot do it justice, I don't doubt that in the original Arabic it is quite beautiful.

If you are interested in learning more about other religions, you should find a better teacher than me. I'm strictly an amateur in these matters.

Remember, I didn't come to argue, and especially not to argue ever-growing walls of text. That's how these things go. You can take my bowing out as a concession, if you like. As well as a mercy to the introduction forum where we may be setting some kind of record! :)

My apologies for not being a more worthy source of information. Peace.

[Ramadhan]

I wasn't prepared for such a growing argument either. If you remember, initially all I did was putting in three Qur'an verses that correspond to the context of the creation process of the universe. I didn't expect you to take it and debate the verses :)

[Mister Agenda]

I wasn't prepared for such a growing argument either. If you remember, initially all I did was putting in three Qur'an verses that correspond to the context of the creation process of the universe. I didn't expect you to take it and debate the verses :)

Sorry about that! I'm not really complaining about your responses, I certainly jumped into it! If I seem bipolar, it's probably because I do like to chime in on arguments but don't have the motivation to hold up one side by myself for long these days. Plus, on this site in particular, I'm more interested in information I can use to help me better serve my refugee friends, and to find out the Muslim side of issues when I hear things that put them in a bad light. That last will be a challenge, it's hard to bring up bad mouthing or stereotypes of a group diplomatically to that group. I imagine it might be like a European American asking an African American if it's true that black people really like water melon. You're off on the wrong foot right from the start, even if it really is true (on average, and not saying that it is). Hopefully I won't have to bring those kinds of questions up myself, and can find them among the threads.