Understanding the war in Afghanistan

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Have two videos from opposing sides about the conflict in Afghanistan, what do brothers and sisters think about it?

Found a short segement of American soliders talking about their experiences, I picked it because it seemed a lot more honest and direct. At least they stay away from the usual propoganda line.



And from the Mujahideen, finally a video that doesnt caricature them.

[User29123]

Ha I like the second one,

Taliban: We fight for our land, we fight for Allah, and Religion, What are the US fighting for? We did not do nothing to them..

I like the Humour too!

Taliban: "He is scared of us"
Taliban: "The same way we are scared of his bald-head!" :D

The ending was sad 2 out of his 3 kids died from US raids, the father survived, Kids were cute

[جوري]

la 7wla wla qiwta illa billah, rightfully they called them sons of ****s which they're and they have killed two out of his three kids, inna lillah wa'ina ilyhi raji3oon.. Should we shed tears over their kids those oppressive pigs? what are they doing in Afghanistan? or anywhere else in the region?.. may Allah swt aid our brothers and sisters fi mashariq al'ard wa'maghribha.. I think that Norwegian creep set a trap for them.. May Allah swt make Muslims victorious and make the sons of the devils defeated and gathered unto hell..

ameen ameen ameen, Allajouma ya mojeeb ad'du3a unsur ikhwanana fi mashariq al'ard wa'maghribha..

[Trumble]

It would be interesting to see the point of view of the Afghan forces opposed to and fighting the Taliban as well. Indeed, I would have thought essential for any sort of genuine 'understanding'.

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[Who Am I?]

:sl:

To think, I was one failed psychiatric test away from being in either Afghanistan or Iraq...

[جوري]

It would be interesting to see the point of view of the Afghan forces opposed to and fighting the Taliban as well. Indeed, I would have thought essential for any sort of genuine 'understanding'.

you know what I have always found very interesting.. When western troops go on invading, killing, maiming, raping, pillaging, destroying lives, children, crops, architecture, and history (as was the case with the treasures of Sumeria in Iraq) they're considered heroes, awarded medals, applauded for their courage rather than being appalled by.. when indigenous folks from any population that the enemy govt. decides that it doesn't recognize and forces to subjugate their puppet govt. to not recognize as well marginalize them and paint them in a most heinous fashion for DEFENDING themselves by the same means (if at all) is enough to stimulate western gag reflex and colossal outcries and in a most hypocritical fashion. The Afghans (taliban or not) didn't invade you then, they've not invaded you now, making the more interesting question here isn't how their own feel about them, but by what right are you there committing war crimes on daily basis and applauding yourself for it and going so far as thinking you're the good guys?

best,

[Who Am I?]

you know what I have always found very interesting.. When western troops go on invading, killing, maiming, raping, pillaging, destroying lives, children, crops, architecture, and history (as was the case with the treasures of Sumeria in Iraq) they're considered heroes, awarded medals, applauded for their courage rather than being appalled by.. when indigenous folks from any population that the enemy govt. decides that it doesn't recognize and forces to subjugate their puppet govt. to not recognize as well marginalize them and paint them in a most heinous fashion for DEFENDING themselves by the same means (if at all) is enough to stimulate western gag reflex and colossal outcries and in a most hypocritical fashion. The Afghans (taliban or not) didn't invade you then, they've not invaded you now, making the more interesting question here isn't how their own feel about them, but by what right are you there committing war crimes on daily basis and applauding yourself for it and going so far as thinking you're the good guys?

best,

:sl:

History is full of examples like that.

Look at what the Europeans (and later the US) did to the indigenous population of the Americas. The natives were consistently painted as the "invading savages" when it was really the Europeans/USA that were the invaders. Even the natives who submitted to the "white man's rule" and lived on the reservations were still seen as enemies and were still subject to unfair treatment even after giving up their cultural identity and their ancestral way of life.

The Greeks and Romans always portrayed their enemies as "barbarians", while they of course were the noble preservers of civilization.

The Chinese thought themselves superior to the rest of the world, and closed themselves off for centuries.

The list goes on.

[Trumble]

you know what I have always found very interesting.. When western troops go on invading, killing, maiming, raping, pillaging, destroying lives, children, crops, architecture, and history (as was the case with the treasures of Sumeria in Iraq) they're considered heroes, awarded medals, applauded for their courage rather than being appalled by.. when indigenous folks from any population that the enemy govt. decides that it doesn't recognize and forces to subjugate their puppet govt. to not recognize as well marginalize them and paint them in a most heinous fashion for DEFENDING themselves by the same means (if at all) is enough to stimulate western gag reflex and colossal outcries and in a most hypocritical fashion. The Afghans (taliban or not) didn't invade you then, they've not invaded you now, making the more interesting question here isn't how their own feel about them, but by what right are you there committing war crimes on daily basis and applauding yourself for it and going so far as thinking you're the good guys?

I'm not quite sure what that rant is all about, to be honest. I'm not 'applauding' anybody, merely commenting that hearing a view from a perspective everybody seems to ignore (which is odd, considering the number of people involved) would be informative. Like it or not, most fighting in Afghanistan involves Afghans fighting Afghans. Accept it or not, many Afghans were delighted to see the back of the Taliban and seem to willing to fight to prevent their unwanted return. We are constantly exposed to what Western forces think, what their political leaders think and what the Taliban think, but we never hear what those people think. I'm not interested in whether you consider there to be a 'puppet government', but whether THEY do.

[جوري]

I'm not quite sure what that rant is all about, to be honest. I'm not 'applauding' anybody, merely commenting that hearing a view from a perspective everybody seems to ignore (which is odd, considering the number of people involved) would be informative. Like it or not, most fighting in Afghanistan involves Afghans fighting Afghans. Accept it or not, many Afghans were delighted to see the back of the Taliban and seem to willing to fight to prevent their unwanted return. We are constantly exposed to what Western forces think, what their political leaders think and what the Taliban think, but we never hear what those people think. I'm not interested in whether you consider there to be a 'puppet government', but whether THEY do.

how do you reconcile wanting to know what 'they' want while in the same breath asserting that 'afghans are willing to fight to prevent their unwanted return?' you surveyed the population or just giving us the same song and dance ergo your media?

best,

[Trumble]

how do you reconcile wanting to know what 'they' want while in the same breath asserting that 'afghans are willing to fight to prevent their unwanted return?' you surveyed the population or just giving us the same song and dance ergo your media?

There is no need to survey anyone or for any song and dance to reconcile anything.

Many Afghans are fighting the Taliban; if you choose to reject that obvious fact then we are wasting our time and I'll leave you to your fantasy world. Assuming you do accept that, they must either be doing so willingly or they are all being coerced in some way; there is no other alternative. The best way to find out is surely to ask them - free from any coercion, of course.

[جوري]

There is no need to survey anyone or for any song and dance to reconcile anything.

Many Afghans are fighting the Taliban; if you choose to reject that obvious fact then we are wasting our time and I'll leave you to your fantasy world. Assuming you do accept that, they must either be doing so willingly or they are all being coerced in some way; there is no other alternative. The best way to find out is surely to ask them - free from any coercion, of course.

who are these afghans fighting the Taliban? Do you have an excerpt from the Afghan tribune that we can read outside of your sensationalistic media and ludicrous attempts of intellectual blackmail if we can at all classify the meaningless fillers under that!
furthermore, even if I to accept that as a fact (which it isn't) since we have seen numerous YOUTUBE vids surveying the average afghan on their feelings and they are almost unanimously pro-taliban, what business is it of the west to invade, then (pre evil taliban) or now? I am still waiting for an answer to that Q are they too hiding those evil WMD like their counterparts in Iraq?

[GuestFellow]

Many Afghans are fighting the Taliban; if you choose to reject that obvious fact then we are wasting our time and I'll leave you to your fantasy world.

It is likely many Afghans will join the Taliban. What you have to understand is no country likes being under occupation. When civilians have been killed, the survivors will turn to whatever means it is necessary to get rid of foreign forces.

Source

Besides, I think the appropriate term to use is anti-government forces rather than Taliban because you have groups with different motives. The one thing they have in common is driving western troops out of their country.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Say what you want about the Taliban, but at least they bought stability to the region and cleaned it up a bit. With the Taliban in shambles, the opium trade has started up again.

[M.I.A.]

there is a god and that plan leads onto judgement day.

trying to dissuade people from that plan is either heretical or compassionate.. but we move towards that day anyway.

the taliban had a plan for afghanistan and its people.

it is not for me to say if that plan was right or wrong, but what should they have done in there first steps?
without hindsight there is only forward movement.

in a state of war, which they are in, im sure they have hindsight.

but when or if the people of afghanistan become free of war, looking in hindsight.. what should there first steps be?

most if not all of you live in westernised countries so look around you, where is it that you are not free to practice religion? after all this is a religious forum.


forget government.. after all it is there to serve the people.

its a circular argument,
you cant destroy opposition by destroying people.. no matter what faith..

the rules on matters of war are probably pretty clear in the quran..
how you reach that place of war or avoid it is up to you.. and probably also pretty clear in the quran.

cant knock either side in the war for afghanistan, they have given each other plenty of excuses.
that guy who lost his children wont give up fighting thats for sure.

may allah swt have mercy upon me.

but as a father myself id work to try and keep that from ever happening to me.

use the entirety of your religion to propagate it..
falsehood is removed by truth long before a call to arms is needed.

[Jalal~]

:sl:
so could someone PLEASE explain what is really going on? like how this all started (because i know this started way before 9/11). a really detailed explanation about the wars going on and the views of both sides would be great
Jazakallah Khair.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:
so could someone PLEASE explain what is really going on? like how this all started (because i know this started way before 9/11). a really detailed explanation about the wars going on and the views of both sides would be great
Jazakallah Khair.

:wa:

You might want to take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan

[Trumble]

who are these afghans fighting the Taliban? Do you have an excerpt from the Afghan tribune that we can read outside of your sensationalistic media and ludicrous attempts of intellectual blackmail if we can at all classify the meaningless fillers under that!

You are just raving. What attempt at 'intellectual blackmail'?

furthermore, even if I to accept that as a fact (which it isn't) ..

As I said, if you insist on denying the obvious I'm wasting my time.

since we have seen numerous YOUTUBE vids surveying the average afghan on their feelings and they are almost unanimously pro-taliban

Have "we" really? What Youtube vids? How do they constitute a 'survey'? Obviously some support the Taliban. Many do not. See below.

It is likely many Afghans will join the Taliban. What you have to understand is no country likes being under occupation. When civilians have been killed, the survivors will turn to whatever means it is necessary to get rid of foreign forces.

What you have to understand is that something like three quarters of the civilians killed in Afghanistan every year are killed by those 'anti-government forces', not government or foreign troops. Source. No, it isn't 'likely many Afghans will join the Taliban'. Unless they want to kill their own.. because in the most part that's what the Taliban do in the real world.

You also need to understand that they don't have the slightest intention of 'driving western troops out of their country' as an end in itself. If that was actually their objective they could just lay down their arms, all foreign troops would be gone in a month and Obama would be celebrating right up to the next election. What they actually want is a situation where they can regain power - by force - in Afghanistan, regardless of what anybody else living there might want. All this 'fighting for their land, God and and religion bit is total cr*p. If this universal support for the Taliban τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ is claiming actually existed power could be achieved easily through the ballot box with nobody getting killed at all; even Mugabe can't rig elections on that scale. But they are terrified of democracy, not because it is 'un-Islamic' but because they know perfectly well they would face wholesale rejection by the Afghan people.

[جوري]

You are just raving. What attempt at 'intellectual blackmail'?

Not at all, I am challenging you to stand by what you write!

As I said, if you insist on denying the obvious I'm wasting my time.

shouldn't the 'obvious' have some semblance of reality?

Have "we" really? What Youtube vids? How do they constitute a 'survey'? Obviously some support the Taliban. Many do not. See below.

I'll be waiting for a genuine Afghan source, until then don't waste my time!

best,

[GuestFellow]

What you have to understand is that something like three quarters of the civilians killed in Afghanistan every year are killed by those 'anti-government forces', not government or foreign troops.

So? Does that mean the Taliban were behind these attacks? What does anti-government forces actually mean? The US is likely to be seen as the main problem within Afghanistan by the civilians. If the US did not start this war, no civilians would have been killed. I suspect western government are hiding facts about how many civilians have been killed by their own troops.

Source. No, it isn't 'likely many Afghans will join the Taliban'. Unless they want to kill their own.. because in the most part that's what the Taliban do in the real world.

Where does it exactly say Taliban? All it says it anti-government forces. Even if there was no Taliban, these civilians would find other means of driving foreign forces out of their country.

You also need to understand that they don't have the slightest intention of 'driving western troops out of their country' as an end in itself.

You don't think some civilians are angry that they are under foreign occupation?

If that was actually their objective they could just lay down their arms, all foreign troops would be gone in a month and Obama would be celebrating right up to the next election.

I doubt it. Afghanistan is a strategic asset to the US. One is to protect the pipeline. Second is to be in a position to threaten Iran.

Source

BTW, the Japanese pose no threat to the US. Why is there military base there?

What they actually want is a situation where they can regain power - by force - in Afghanistan, regardless of what anybody else living there might want.

Are you referring to anti-government forces or civilians?

All this 'fighting for their land, God and and religion bit is total cr*p. If this universal support for the Taliban τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ is claiming actually existed power could be achieved easily through the ballot box with nobody getting killed at all; even Mugabe can't rig elections on that scale. But they are terrified of democracy, not because it is 'un-Islamic' but because they know perfectly well they would face wholesale rejection by the Afghan people.

We are talking about civilians, not anti-government forces. I think all of us agree that the US is occupying Afghanistan and trying to gain control of that country, even though it is not going to work. Civilians have been killed and I suppose many Afghans want some sort of revenge or seeks to drive US forces out. These civilians will join forces with rouge groups to achieve this.

I have no idea what the Taliban or what these anti-government forces want to achieve. So I think we should distinguish between what civilians want and what anti-government forces want.

[Lynx]

To those who weren't aware that Afghans fought against the Taliban please google "Ahmad Shah Massoud" and please educate yourselves. The taliban's support mostly lie in the southern regions where the pashtun tribes share the same ideological and cultural viewpoints of the Taliban. There has been a civil war going on in Afghanistan long before NATO decided to step in...As Trumble rightly points out, that portion of the Afghan Population are often overlooked by other Muslims who are too focused on "The War on Muslims"

It's unfortunate that some Muslims only notice Afghanistan when there are Russians or Americans involved. The real enemy of the Afghan population are the corrupt politicians in Kabul, the backwards and barbaric tribal leaders, and the warlords that have reduced the cities to rubble. They are all Muslim.

As a side note, even if NATO didn't get involved, the Taliban are too incompetent of a regime to save the millions dying of starvation every year.

[جوري]

Allah yada3 siroh fi ad3af khalqo.. What was the Russian interest in Afghanistan before that, and the British interest before that still? Afghanistan is really thriving with centuries of wars and occupation oh thank God for your presence there and 'NATO's'.. Did it ever occur to you that a tribal life is perfectly suitable for some people? that not everybody desires or wants a 9-5 in a cubicle in a smog filled metropolis, where 3/4 of their lives is spent in meaningless endeavors amidst people who back bite them and half of their salary is wasted on Taxes to support illegal wars and occupations, and that all their information comes in a neat little edited, concocted package meant to prey on their fears and rouse their paranoia while under the delusion that they can fulfill the 'American dream' like losers who play in Casinos losing millions believing that they can beat the house in a country that wants to redefine what 'bankruptcy' is because its so called 'democratic capitalistic system' a phony cover up supposedly to be imported to the world under some neatly packaged banners and is based purely on ponzi schemes has not only failed but failed miserably? I think a life in the mountain with a few goats is looking pretty good to many!
Quit using obscure characters and remote sources from the web to make non-points.. in fact take your own advise on education, I can think of no worse thing than ignorance save for persistence in it.

best,

[SFatima]

And as expected, the videos have been removed :/ or maybe i cannot view them.. is that the same for everybody?can anyone plz upload them again. Thank you.

[GuestFellow]

To those who weren't aware that Afghans fought against the Taliban please google "Ahmad Shah Massoud" and please educate yourselves. The taliban's support mostly lie in the southern regions where the pashtun tribes share the same ideological and cultural viewpoints of the Taliban. There has been a civil war going on in Afghanistan long before NATO decided to step in...As Trumble rightly points out, that portion of the Afghan Population are often overlooked by other Muslims who are too focused on "The War on Muslims"

I forgot the details but I think Ahmad Shah Massoud was a member of the Northern Alliance? Yes, there are civilians that are against the Taliban.

NATO made things worse. Starting a war did not help resolve the problems within Afghanistan. Like I said before, it is natural for some civilians to join anti-government forces (like the Taliban), when they are under foreign occupation.

It's unfortunate that some Muslims only notice Afghanistan when there are Russians or Americans involved. The real enemy of the Afghan population are the corrupt politicians in Kabul, the backwards and barbaric tribal leaders, and the warlords that have reduced the cities to rubble. They are all Muslim.

Yes, we are aware that there are corrupt politicians in Kabul. NATO presence in the region is not making things better.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

It's just like Vietnam. Civil conflict that only ended when foreign troops (U.S.) invaded the country.

Tribal politics is really at the heart of a lot of problems in the Muslim world. It's not the religion so much as it's the politics.

[ardianto]

I forgot the details but I think Ahmad Shah Massoud was a member of the Northern Alliance? Yes, there are civilians that are against the Taliban.

Ahmad Shah Massoud was Tajik tribe warlord in the war against Soviet. But after Taliban took over Afghanistan he joined in Northern Alliance because he is Tajik, and Taliban are Pashtun. Basically the war between Taliban and Northern Alliance was a war between Pashtun and non-Pashtun. But not every Pashtun warlord support Taliban regime. Gulbudin Hekmatyar from Pashtun took neutral position in that war, although from what I have read now Hekmatyar join Taliban in the war against NATO.

NATO made things worse. Starting a war did not help resolve the problems within Afghanistan. Like I said before, it is natural for some civilians to join anti-government forces (like the Taliban), when they are under foreign occupation.

NATO did not start the war. They just a 'new player in the game'.

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum;

the best way to understand wars in Afghanistan is talk with people coming from there - if they like to tell about it to you and if you can listening.

Getting knowledge from wikipedia or from media is allways: "can I trust this source tells true ?".

[Lynx]

Allah yada3 siroh fi ad3af khalqo... Did it ever occur to you that a tribal life is perfectly suitable for some people?
best,

Yes, and has it ever occurred to you that some people find the 9-5 capitalist/democratic life 'perfectly' suitable? In any case thank you for your rant, it had nothing to do with what I said but I am sure it made you feel better. Anyway, the point has been made clear: the war in Afghanistan is much more complicated than this whole NATO vs the Muslim world false dichotomy you're hallucinating about

I forgot the details but I think Ahmad Shah Massoud was a member of the Northern Alliance? Yes, there are civilians that are against the Taliban.

NATO made things worse. Starting a war did not help resolve the problems within Afghanistan. Like I said before, it is natural for some civilians to join anti-government forces (like the Taliban), when they are under foreign occupation.

It is true that a lot of civilians joined the anti-government forces because they despise the foreign interference of the West. However, the most important thing in this conflict, at least in my opinion, is what the Afghan people themselves want. My point in the earlier post is that there isn't just Anti-West and Pro-Taliban people; there are a large number of middle-men who dislike both. The people of the country themselves should decide what sort of future they should have, not a bunch of western politicians or the Muslims around the world that turned their backs on Afghanistan in its darkest times....

[جوري]

Yes, and has it ever occurred to you that some people find the 9-5 capitalist/democratic life 'perfectly' suitable? In any case thank you for your rant, it had nothing to do with what I said but I am sure it made you feel better. Anyway, the point has been made clear: the war in Afghanistan is much more complicated than this whole NATO vs the Muslim world false dichotomy you're hallucinating about
.

They can find it suitable all they want, they don't have to force feed it to others.. You have no point unfortunately otherwise and you've never had one. Perhaps you concoct irrelevant nonsense to appease your mind of the heinous crimes committed by your fellow countrymen for no apparent good reason.. the complexity is apparently well over your head since you couldn't come up with a single good reason for repeat invasions pre/post taliban.. pre/post 911!

[Lynx]

They can find it suitable all they want, they don't have to force feed it to others.. You have no point unfortunately otherwise and you've never had one. Perhaps you concoct irrelevant nonsense to appease your mind of the heinous crimes committed by your fellow countrymen for no apparent good reason.. the complexity is apparently well over your head since you couldn't come up with a single good reason for repeat invasions pre/post taliban.. pre/post 911!

I think you're logically challenged. Re-read my first post on this thread to properly understand what I said. To help you with this task, make sure to cite which portions of my initial post each of your replies are meant to respond to.


I like your bit about my "countrymen"...maybe I'll start a new thread on the Arab/Pakistani invasion of Afghanistan. Your countrymen are just as bad :)

[جوري]

I think you're logically challenged. Re-read my first post on this thread to properly understand what I said. To help you with this task, make sure to cite which portions of my initial post each of your replies are meant to respond to.


I like your bit about my "countrymen"...maybe I'll start a new thread on the Arab/Pakistani invasion of Afghanistan. Your countrymen are just as bad :)

I have tired of the fillers and the antics you pad your posts with, I am not even sure I understand the psychology behind such petty school boy attempts to save face.. it really wouldn't be that difficult to take yourself out of a topic where you're inept at gauging to any respectable level whether politically, economically, socially etc. and let's face it the only reason you're here all together is to save your troubled friend from the jam he dug for himself the usual best he could offer to cement his views are by way of intellectual bullying which you're only too eager to jump on yourself.. I'd love a little nugget in all that manure I so often have to sort through. How long does it take you to google a non sequitur which you so boastfully offer as 'education'?

btw for the record in Islam we don't have Arab/Pakistani/afghan etc. labels. .. We're all simply Muslims! we have no borders and no superiority.. our interests are one with any luck it would be the final nail in America's coffin as it was in soviets coffin before you!

best,

[Lynx]

btw for the record in Islam we don't have Arab/Pakistani/afghan etc. labels. .. We're all simply Muslims! we have no borders and no superiority.. our interests are one with any luck it would be the final nail in America's coffin as it was in soviets coffin before you!

best,

Now try very hard to answer the following question without dodging it or outright ignoring it: why are there so many Afghans fighting against the Taliban before and after Sept 11 if their goals are all the same? If you are unaware that this is going on then why do you talk about a region of the world that you are completely ignorant about? You're no different than any other redneck in America blabbering about WMD's in Iraq. Ignorance is ignorance regardless of your religion or background. The point is this: the war in Afghanistan is more than just NATO vs Muslims; you've yet to address this point or even show that you understand this. I imagine your next response will be either to deny that there are Muslims fighting against the Taliban (despite giving you a reference point in my previous post) or you will rant about the West even though I am not talking about the West. Conclusion: you're ignorant of the history of Afghanistan and you think you are qualified to form an opinion on the war going on there. People are dying there and you don't even take a few minutes of your time to educate yourself on what they're all about. I'll say it again, you're one of those Muslims that don't give a crap about anyone unless there's a white person to hate on. If NATO withdrew tomorrow you'd forget about the place just like the entire Muslim world did after the Russians left. The West is godless, what is the Muslim's excuse? No Jihad = no interest? l0l.

[جوري]

Now try very hard to answer the following question without dodging it or outright ignoring it: why are there so many Afghans fighting against the Taliban before and after Sept 11 if their goals are all the same? If you are unaware that this is going on then why do you talk about a region of the world that you are completely ignorant about? You're no different than any other redneck in America blabbering about WMD's in Iraq. Ignorance is ignorance regardless of your religion or background.

Who are these so many afghans? another catch all phrase for a dude you found on the net?

The point is this: the war in Afghanistan is more than just NATO vs Muslims; you've yet to address this point or even show that you understand this. I imagine your next response will be either to deny that there are Muslims fighting against the Taliban (despite giving you a reference point in my previous post) or you will rant about the West even though I am not talking about the West. Conclusion: you're ignorant of the history of Afghanistan and you think you are qualified to form an opinion on the war going on there. People are dying there and you don't even take a few minutes of your time to educate yourself on what they're all about. I'll say it again, you're one of those Muslims that don't give a crap about anyone unless there's a white person to hate on. If NATO withdrew tomorrow you'd forget about the place just like the entire Muslim world did after the Russians left. The West is godless, what is the Muslim's excuse? No Jihad = no interest? l0l.

glad you can create a funny and laugh at it yourself.. I won't dignify your incessant drivel with a response, although I'll point out that if we're to speak of ignorance, then you're a poster boy for it!
No one is forgetting about Afghanistan or any Islamic country in between, that is your desire, a western desire in general to dismantle any effort for an ummah uniting... if you didn't send Satan's envoy every other day to nip in the bud any effort at forming a Muslim empire even a simple mind like yours would see it clearly... Thank God Ramadan is upon, you can shut that gaping maw of yours from spewing more manure!

best,

[Thucydides1987]

Hi lily!! :) I see you're up to your old tricks again. Or did you never stop? :P

[Lynx]

Who are these so many afghans? another catch all phrase for a dude you found on the net?

huh ? You DO realize that the Taliban took over the country by force and that there was a civil war going on before NATO decided to step in right?.... Or were you under the impression that after the Russians left it was all peaceful and happy-happy until the evil NATO forces invaded killing thousands of innocent Taliban fighters who were just trying to run a country that they were the legitimate rulers of? Something tells me the latter is more in line with your obviously uninformed understanding of the war in Afghanistan.

glad you can create a funny and laugh at it yourself.. I won't dignify your incessant drivel with a response, although I'll point out that if we're to speak of ignorance, then you're a poster boy for it!
No one is forgetting about Afghanistan or any Islamic country in between, that is your desire, a western desire in general to dismantle any effort for an ummah uniting... if you didn't send Satan's envoy every other day to nip in the bud any effort at forming a Muslim empire even a simple mind like yours would see it clearly... Thank God Ramadan is upon, you can shut that gaping maw of yours from spewing more manure!

best,

If no one forgot about it then where was all the discussion about helping one of the, if not the poorest, country in all of the Muslim world? Your Ummah will never reunite because you're all indifferent to one another. The sad fact is, the Muslim world forgot about Afghanistan as soon as the Russians withdrew; if they hadn't, maybe things would have turned out differently. Certainly, when someone is suffering the whole world has a responsibility to help them out, but when that person's own brothers and sisters don't give a crap what would you expect from the rest of the world?

Again, the west is godless but what's the Muslim's excuse?

[جوري]

Hi lily!! :) I see you're up to your old tricks again. Or did you never stop? :P

Do you have something of substance to impart?

huh ? You DO realize that the Taliban took over the country by force and that there was a civil war going on before NATO decided to step in right?.... Or were you under the impression that after the Russians left it was all peaceful and happy-happy until the evil NATO forces invaded killing thousands of innocent Taliban fighters who were just trying to run a country that they were the legitimate rulers of? Something tells me the latter is more in line with your obviously uninformed understanding of the war in Afghanistan.




If no one forgot about it then where was all the discussion about helping one of the, if not the poorest, country in all of the Muslim world? Your Ummah will never reunite because you're all indifferent to one another. The sad fact is, the Muslim world forgot about Afghanistan as soon as the Russians withdrew; if they hadn't, maybe things would have turned out differently. Certainly, when someone is suffering the whole world has a responsibility to help them out, but when that person's own brothers and sisters don't give a crap what would you expect from the rest of the world?

Again, the west is godless but what's the Muslim's excuse?

So what if the taliban took over by force? coups happen all the time.. we're seeing it all over the middle east, what is your point?
Of course the ummah will reunite insha'Allah-- it is just a matter of time.. freaks you out a bit doesn't it? seeds of change are happening all over while the U.S and its poodles decide to put their tentacles here and there, pretty soon they'll have run out of money, constantly redefining what it means to be bankrupt. How can you compare people who have absolutely nothing living in a mountainous austere region to the foies gras effete homosexuals you send there?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,


The verse pretty much sums it up..and spare me the bull **** about all the good you and NATO do, if dropping bombs along with food is good then you really need to get your head examined!

best,

[جوري]

Certainly, when someone is suffering the whole world has a responsibility to help them out,

lol about that bit, it is worthy of special mention..

The United States is seeking to avert further criticism over the use of cluster bombs in Afghanistan by warning the Afghan people not to confuse unexploded bombs with food drops.

Do not confuse the cylinder-shaped bomb with the rectangular food bag

US Psy-ops radio

Embarrassingly, the bombs' yellow casing means that from a distance they are hard to distinguish from the emergency food parcels wrapped in yellow plastic that US planes have been dropping over the last few weeks

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mon...ts/1624787.stm

dropping food with cluster bombs amongst other things really makes you helpful and dutiful.. btw OBL an Arab along with many others gave his fortune to help the afghans.. how do your pals in Washington view that help? I believe they call it terrorism.. beyond me really how their simpleton minds can't conceive the heinous war crimes they commit in the same light.. with one minor difference here of course. Neither the Taliban nor the afghans actually invaded the U.S or its poodles, making you a terrorist bar none!

you're so incredibly delusional it i frightening!

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

If no one forgot about it then where was all the discussion about helping one of the, if not the poorest, country in all of the Muslim world? Your Ummah will never reunite because you're all indifferent to one another. The sad fact is, the Muslim world forgot about Afghanistan as soon as the Russians withdrew; if they hadn't, maybe things would have turned out differently. Certainly, when someone is suffering the whole world has a responsibility to help them out, but when that person's own brothers and sisters don't give a crap what would you expect from the rest of the world?

Again, the west is godless but what's the Muslim's excuse?

Greetings of peace..

I dont understand how you can assume the muslim world forgot about afghanistan or any other country out there where innocents are suffering. Do not judge the whole group, there are billions of humans all around the world, and at least over millions out there who are muslims, how can you come to the conclusions of those billions assuming they dont do anything to help? so what is it that you do to help the innocents dying out there? or should i assume the same as you do for the muslims? I think we should be respectful insha'Allaah..

The west is not 'godless', nor is the east, people of all faith in god also live in the west, its those humans who choose by making righteous decisions by either using their brain that god gifted them with or using it in to fulfill their desire. but by godless if you mean people lacking belief in god, well then as i mentioned it is because they choose not to.

A muslim has no excuse but to submit fully to his lord, by obeying him. Those who do not, well im sure you understand the concept of right from the wrong, and it seems you have been on the forum long enough to maybe have learnt somethings about Islaam maybe?. meaning, if one is not following a particular law the way it is set, then he is obviously not fully following it properly, which means he is to blame not the law or the whole lot of others who follow the law. i hope i make sense, i apologise if it was confusing.


However, the blessed month has approached and i hope that since you are on this forum, you learn lots about Ramadhaan insha'Allaah..

[M.I.A.]

i was reading that Afghanistan had a reported 99% muslim population, how on earth did the taliban mess up so bad?
as teachers and reformers.

surely 1% cant be the cause of all insecurity.

anyway, what can you do?

or what would you do?

[جوري]

i was reading that Afghanistan had a reported 99% muslim population, how on earth did the taliban mess up so bad?
as teachers and reformers.

surely 1% cant be the cause of all insecurity.

anyway, what can you do?

or what would you do?

How do you figure the 'taliban' caused all the mess? Afghanistan hasn't been war ravaged for centuries by foreign interest in the region? way before the concocted axis of evil of 'taliban' or 'OBL' it is a shame really to have such a superficial knowledge of geopolitical and socioeconomic conditions of the world around you!

best,

[M.I.A.]

well i figure by definition alone the talib's would have known better than to think they could destroy the shaytan, that thing has been here long before you and i and hopefully will remain here long after you and i have left this place.

if you want holy war for stability, well those states will not be established until the people are worthy to establish them.
its like the jews waiting for a zionistic state.

understand that wars for land and stability will go on forever, achieving stability and structure within the people is what islam was suppose to be about. what makes a land important?

oil? resources? ...well that wont last forever.
strategic importance? ...what are you planning to do?

all of the above is superficial opinion, most of what i believe in doesnt exist.

[جوري]

what makes a land important?

In the midst of all that you've stumbled upon the exclamatory point.. once you understand outside interest in that region from the times of Alex the great to mongols to Brits to soviets to Americans can everything else fall into place for you. Stability should never be the objective of people subjugated and for centuries or rather I should say attempts of subjugation since Afghanistan truly is the grave yard of empires!

best,

[M.I.A.]

well i guess its just a means to an end. if not war then genocide right?

what i meant about stability for people is removal of division, fear of allah swt rather than poverty. real understanding of what we are put in this place to do or more importantly being able to individually draw a line in the sand on each and every point of life.. and having a sound criterion for making those decisions.

if you carry on from yesterday than its very hard to admit mistakes and make amends.

the worst thing we can do is to think our decisions are always right, loss of hawf and humily follow.
but allah swt has no need of us and there is always somebody to correct our mistakes.

lol stumbling till i fall hopefully.

[جوري]

well i guess its just a means to an end. if not war then genocide right?

what i meant about stability for people is removal of division, fear of allah swt rather than poverty. real understanding of what we are put in this place to do or more importantly being able to individually draw a line in the sand on each and every point of life.. and having a sound criterion for making those decisions.

if you carry on from yesterday than its very hard to admit mistakes and make amends.

the worst thing we can do is to think our decisions are always right, loss of hawf and humily follow.
but allah swt has no need of us and there is always somebody to correct our mistakes.

lol stumbling till i fall hopefully.

We talk of the Taliban from a western perspective no? we can neither judge their religiosity nor question what they think is best for their country. Obviously a greedy corporate Satan like American and its poodles isn't the go to for morality reference if for nothing else at all given their disgusting history.

:w:

[M.I.A.]

thats the point though, why should you not question those that are effectively the management?
i believe that questioning brings the best out of people.. when it is missing complacency replaces diligence.

its the same in the mosques
its the same in government

when the people have no voice then there is either direction or misdirection, when there is no understanding in the people then it does not matter if they speak or do not.
everybody has an opinion, what you represent when you talk, your interests at heart.. i would like to think those are the things that you pass on to people willing to listen.

but you have to understand, making a fresh start is easier if you have not seen the path.. if you have wandered off then circumstance, fate...god may not make it easy.

this is why the "western muslims" are so lucky, we can still take a step back. im not judging the taliban, they are fighting for what we believe in.. but do not think that any muslim represents islam any less just because he or she is not physically at war.

what you can achieve or hope to achieve is with you, what you ultimately achieve is with allah swt.

why wait for judgement day to fear allah swt?
i know i have fear of allah swt today, if you like anything i have then take it.. better if it is my islam then my personal property.

in other words,
if people like who you are and what you represent, then dahwah becomes easier.

if you like money you will follow those that follow money.

if you like knowledge you will follow those that have/claim to have/follow knowledge.

but rich men can still be poor and those with knowledge can be even poorer still, you have to define rich and poor.

morality is the same, what we hold as our morals and what becomes of them is ultimately with allah swt.
ultimately you, i, america and the taliban are under allah swt.. no matter if our ego's and numbers would suggest otherwise.

we all just go on day after day until we die, but do not be unmindful of those that cross our paths.