The original sin ????

[nour elhoda]

The original sin


One of essence of the christian dogmas is the believe in the idea of " the original sin & the tonement" . Adam disobeid God by eating from the forbidden tree. The sin of Adam ingerited by all of his children, all human being are born sinful. According to this idea, God's justice requires a price to be paid for every sin ; and the only thing that can wipe out sin is the shedding of blood .
As ST. Paul puts it :
" Without the shedding of blood there is no remission" ------( Hebrews 9:22)
But this blood must be perfect , sinless & incorrupt blood
" As the original sin being directed, was infinite proportion, it demanded infinite recompense"
So Jesus Christ , the Son of God who had come from heaven , shed his blood, suffered indescribable agony , and died to pay the penalty for the sins of men.
Because Jesus was infinite God , he alone could pay the infinite price of Sin.
According to this Dogma noone can be saved from the eternal Hell unless he\she accepts Jeus christ as his redeemer.

The dogma is divided into 3 parts:
1- The original sin
2- God's justice requires blood to be paid as a penality for sins
3- The belief that Jesus has paid the price for the sin by his death on the cross, & that salvation is only for those who believe in this vicarious sacrifice .
As for the words of ST. Paul :
" As by the disobedience of one ( Adam) , many were made sinners , so also by the obedience of one ( Christ) many shall be made just" Rom " 5:18,19



1) The idea of the ingerited sin:
It has no support in th ewords of Jesus or the prophets who came beofre him. All prophets came with the dogma that everyman is accountable for his\her own actions; the children will not be punished for the sin of their father.
The dogma of the original sin states that all chidler are born sinners, while Jesus himself regarded children as being innocent & pure , & not born in sin:

" suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God .
Verily , I say unto you whosoever , shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child , he shall not enter there in"
( Mark 10:14,15)

As for islam , it condemns this dogma of the oroginal sin .Sin is not ingerited , but it is something which each person acuires by himself by doing what he shouldnot do.
Man according to islam is born with the capability & inclination to do evil as well as to do good. When man grow up being able to distinguish between right & wrong , he is totally free to be a prey of temptation & make something wrong , or resist & live in harmoney with the will of God.

Rationally speaking, it would be the height of injustice to condemn the entire human race for a sin commited thousands of years ago by the first parents. Justice views sin as a wilful transgression of the law of God or the law of right & wrong, and the blame for it lies on the doer of the sin , and not on his children , every man has his own mind , has the free choice to be good or bad , so no one is to be blamed for other's faults.

wait for more ((:

[Grace Seeker]

Rationally speaking, it would be the height of injustice to condemn the entire human race for a sin commited thousands of years ago by the first parents.

You are right. But then we are not condemned because of a sin commited by our first parents. In fact condemnation is not something that is done to us at all. It is simply the inevitable byproduct of not accepting God's offer of grace and love found in Jesus Christ by which he seeks to restore us to the original relationship with us for which we were created and that our first parents spurned. What God has done is not act to condemn, but to save -- "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17). We do however have to live with the consequence of their actions that have forever altered the world in which we live.

Our first parents were created to live in a perfect paradise where they could live in perfect fellowship with God. However, they were kicked out of paradise because of sinning, that was a just action on God's part. We have been born since that event. We were not kicked out. But we were born outside of paradise. We cannot blame that on God, but on our first parents who screwed up our chance to be born into the sort of fellowship with God that he wants to have with us.

The good news is that God doesn't want us to be left out in the cold just because we were born there, rather he wants to have fellowship with us too just like he wanted to have with our first parents. We err though if we think the way back is through our own efforts. The only way back is by invitation, and God offers that invitation to each and everyone of us in Jesus Christ. So, if people feel that they are being excluded from this relationship with God that they want to have, it isn't God who has made this so for the invitation has been made.

[M.I.A.]

you cannot inherit the sins of parents, but there ways are your ways.
what is right and wrong, not morally but according to gods law, that is/was or has been.

its not a coherent argument until you put something that has been debated from all angles into perspective.
the having of multiple wives is not tolerated by many in society within "civilised" society at least.. even if it is tolerated people inwardly are opposed or disgusted. this may help you understand where im coming from.

in our time original sin, is simply due to being conditioned to the laws of our time.
i understand that blood atonement is not required but many a wife would be willing lol. im kidding as a happily married family man.

..some of the arguments for multiple wives include being able to support them.. i didnt realise it was a money thing.
of course my reasoning puts some doubt on my morality.
worse still would be people willing to accept a person that did the above.. most would consider it a stain on ones reputation.

[siam]

You are right. But then we are not condemned because of a sin commited by our first parents. In fact condemnation is not something that is done to us at all. It is simply the inevitable byproduct of not accepting God's offer of grace and love found in Jesus Christ by which he seeks to restore us to the original relationship with us for which we were created and that our first parents spurned. What God has done is not act to condemn, but to save -- "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:17). We do however have to live with the consequence of their actions that have forever altered the world in which we live.

Our first parents were created to live in a perfect paradise where they could live in perfect fellowship with God. However, they were kicked out of paradise because of sinning, that was a just action on God's part. We have been born since that event. We were not kicked out. But we were born outside of paradise. We cannot blame that on God, but on our first parents who screwed up our chance to be born into the sort of fellowship with God that he wants to have with us.

The good news is that God doesn't want us to be left out in the cold just because we were born there, rather he wants to have fellowship with us too just like he wanted to have with our first parents. We err though if we think the way back is through our own efforts. The only way back is by invitation, and God offers that invitation to each and everyone of us in Jesus Christ. So, if people feel that they are being excluded from this relationship with God that they want to have, it isn't God who has made this so for the invitation has been made.

:D I suppose crazy Christian arguments should not come as a surprise anymore---yet they still do...:D:D:D

We err on the side of idiocy if we underestimate God's capacity for Compassion and Mercy.
We err on the side of stupidity if we underestimate God's capacity for Equality in Justice.
We were created to be stewards of all of God's creations on earth. That is why we are here on earth and that is why all human beings are created inherently GOOD.

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[Ramadhan]

I suppose crazy Christian arguments should not come as a surprise anymore---yet they still do...

I am sharing your sentiment :D
They always move the goalposts, just when their convoluted and elaborated "explanation" about a certain aspect of their theology get shredded to pieces, they'll move on and concoct an ever more elaborate, mentally-straining, verbally-acrobatic "explanations"

Professional christians are the best (or worse? depending on how you are looking at it ;D), they'll get more and more creative with words, rationals, logic, and being selective with certain verses and amnesiac with many other verses.

[Hiroshi]

As the original sin being directed, was infinite proportion, it demanded infinite recompense"
So Jesus Christ , the Son of God who had come from heaven , shed his blood, suffered indescribable agony , and died to pay the penalty for the sins of men.
Because Jesus was infinite God , he alone could pay the infinite price of Sin.

wait for more ((:

I cannot see any reason why Adam's sin should be viewed as infinite sin. Accordingly there is then no necessity for the sacrifice of an infinite God to pay the price for redemption.

The sin was committed by a man Adam (a perfect man before he sinned). And so the redemption price for the ransom sacrifice required also a sinless perfect man, Jesus. It did not require the sacrifice and death of God himself.

[Grace Seeker]

:D I suppose crazy Christian arguments should not come as a surprise anymore---yet they still do...:D:D:D

We err on the side of idiocy if we underestimate God's capacity for Compassion and Mercy.
We err on the side of stupidity if we underestimate God's capacity for Equality in Justice.
We were created to be stewards of all of God's creations on earth. That is why we are here on earth and that is why all human beings are created inherently GOOD.

You say my argument is crazy. Is there a particular part of it that you find as crazy or the whole of it?

Is it crazy to assert that we are not condemned because of a sin commited by our first parents?

Is it crazy to assert that what God has done is not act to condemn, but to save?

Is it crazy to assert that our first parents were created to live in a perfect paradise where they could live in perfect fellowship with God or that they were kicked out of paradise because of sinning? Or that kicking them out of paradise because of sin was a just action on God's part?


I agree with the essence of what you said. It is wrong to underestimate God's capacity with regard to anything be it compasison or mercy or equity or justice. I don't believe we should believe that God is in anyway limited on those fronts, nor did I present him that way. So, in what way does the assertion of "crazy" apply to what I wrote?

[nour elhoda]

You say my argument is crazy. Is there a particular part of it that you find as crazy or the whole of it?

Is it crazy to assert that we are not condemned because of a sin commited by our first parents?

Is it crazy to assert that what God has done is not act to condemn, but to save?

Is it crazy to assert that our first parents were created to live in a perfect paradise where they could live in perfect fellowship with God or that they were kicked out of paradise because of sinning? Or that kicking them out of paradise because of sin was a just action on God's part?


I agree with the essence of what you said. It is wrong to underestimate God's capacity with regard to anything be it compasison or mercy or equity or justice. I don't believe we should believe that God is in anyway limited on those fronts, nor did I present him that way. So, in what way does the assertion of "crazy" apply to what I wrote?

Grace seeker ...first iam so sorry for that word " crazy"


what iam saying in this article is that , to forgive our sins , God needs no blood , its only repentance , there is no mediation between God & people .

if we have to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Blood ( peace be upon him) , so what about those people who were born and died before Jesus ??.......... would they go to hell ???

if we said that God left those people between Adam & Jesus without salvation , unlike those who came with & after Jesus , so God was unjust ...

to be saved from Hell one needs nothing but a pure relation with God and sinless life , to be good & benevolent , to be a great person in your relation with God as well as with people
Every person is totally responsible for his\her deeds , & its unfair if we said that one person " Jesus" is sacrificed for other people sins


this is what am trying to clarify in this article , its not blood that saves us , but God's person first , then our good deeds in life

[M.I.A.]

i think in the case of jesus pbuh is he saved his people, the people he was sent to.

much the same as the other prophets, peace and blessing be upon them.

also there have been a lot of prophets pbut.

they were the mediation between god and the people..and each had a different story by which they did it.
gods never changing word expressed in an ever changing people.

[Grace Seeker]

Grace seeker ...first iam so sorry for that word "crazy"

It's OK, but thank you for apologizing anyway.

what iam saying in this article is that , to forgive our sins , God needs no blood , its only repentance , there is no mediation between God & people .

Forgiveness is to say that the wrong doing is not held against a person. On that basis, forgiveness doesn't even require repentance as to repent means to turn around and change direction. Can God forgive apart from the shedding of blood? Absolutely!!

But we have to understand that apart from repentance such forgiveness would still leave a person doing the wrong thing. So, forgiveness by itself is not enough. It also needs repentance. I would argue that even that is not enough, there is also the need for reconciliation to actually bring the parties back together. And it is in the process of reconciliation that we need Christ as our mediator.

if we have to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Blood ( peace be upon him) , so what about those people who were born and died before Jesus ??.......... would they go to hell ???

Well, first note that you are the one who has presupposed a condition that I do not. You begin by asserting that we have to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus' blood. I make no such assertion. (I do myself believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, but I don't assert that it is a necessity for others to so believe.) What I have asserted is that Jesus is our mediator.

As for those who were born and died before Jesus, the result of their eternal destiny is in God's hands, not mine. Scriptures tell us that Jesus went to the resting place of the dead (both righteous and unrighteous, for hell is where the unrighteous are cast at the end of time) to minister to those who had preceeded him. So, there isn't a problem with regard to those who were born and died before Jesus. All humanity has the opportunity to hear the Gospel proclaimed to them and are judged according to the degree of revelation they received and are capable of receiving.

if we said that God left those people between Adam & Jesus without salvation , unlike those who came with & after Jesus , so God was unjust ...

But we haven't said that. The only unjust thing is to assert that we believe something that we actually don't.

to be saved from Hell one needs nothing but a pure relation with God and sinless life , to be good & benevolent , to be a great person in your relation with God as well as with people

Oh, that's the only thing? Then we are all doomed, for I know of no person who can be described that way other than Jesus himself.

Every person is totally responsible for his\her deeds , & its unfair if we said that one person "Jesus" is sacrificed for other people sins

I agree. I'm very glad that rather than being fair with me, God has chose me grace.

[Predator]

Jesus tells The parable of the Prodigals son which explains the relationship between God and his creations .This itself shreds to pieces the concept of a God dieing for other sins

It begins with a young man, the younger of two sons, who asks his father to give him his share of the estate. The parable continues by describing how the younger son travels to a distant country and wastes all his money in wild living. When a famine strikes, he becomes desperately poor and is forced to take work as a swineherd. When he reaches the point of envying the pigs he is looking after, he finally comes to his senses:
But when he came to himself he said, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants.'"

He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

— Luke 15:17-20, World English Bible

The son does not even have time to finish his rehearsed speech, since the father calls for his servants to dress him in a fine robe, a ring, and sandals, and slaughter the "fattened calf" for a celebratory meal. The older son, who was at work in the fields, hears the sound of celebration, and is told about the return of his younger brother. He is not impressed, and becomes angry:
But he answered his father, "Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him."

— Luke 15:29-30, World English Bible

The parable concludes with the father explaining that because the younger son had returned, in a sense, from the dead, celebration was necessary:
"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

— Luke 15:32, World English Bible

This is echoed by

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. Ezekiel 18:21

Grace seeker dont be a coward trying to look for someone to pass the buck on to . , You dont need a Jesus or a Muhammad to die for your sins,all you need to do is change like the Prodigal's son.

[M.I.A.]

so i thought of a concept which id like to share with you,

i know its a bit abstract but its an idea anyway.

imagine if you were your brothers keeper,
and all the rules of scripture applied.

so that your anger were manifest on them, even if it was not directly against them.

so the way they treated a stranger is how you were treated and the way you treated a stranger is they way they were treated.
there sins were manifest to you and yours to them.

this would put the fear of god into me for sure, responsibility of action knowing that its an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.. but not necessarily your eyes or your teeth.

the quran says the only that in this world the only thing you can wrong is your own soul.. to think that it resides in your own body is wrong.

dont know how it would fit the concept of atonement but im sure you can relate.

[siam]

You say my argument is crazy. Is there a particular part of it that you find as crazy or the whole of it?
---the whole of it
Is it crazy to assert that we are not condemned because of a sin commited by our first parents?
---ofcourse we are NOT condemned---but Christians think otherwise---at least those following Agustine...?...
Is it crazy to assert that what God has done is not act to condemn, but to save?
---Yes, as per yr explanation.
Is it crazy to assert that our first parents were created to live in a perfect paradise where they could live in perfect fellowship with God or that they were kicked out of paradise because of sinning? Or that kicking them out of paradise because of sin was a just action on God's part?
---Yes.....by the way, some interesting assumptions here......

I agree with the essence of what you said. It is wrong to underestimate God's capacity with regard to anything be it compasison or mercy or equity or justice. I don't believe we should believe that God is in anyway limited on those fronts, nor did I present him that way. So, in what way does the assertion of "crazy" apply to what I wrote?

GS, you assume we were created to live in Paradise---but I say we were created from the first to be stewards (vicegerents) of earth. As such---we were created with a "nature" that would help us do so.

Now consider the story of (Prophet) Adam (pbuh).....where did his desire come from if not from the "nature" created by God. Had desire not been present in his nature, Satan could not have tempted him....because one needs to have desires in order to be tempted.

So why did God create Mankind with a nature that desires?(a question that even the angels asked of God in Surah 2--Quran)---because if we(self) are to be stewards on earth, we need a vehicle of interaction with our environment--which is the body---and for the body to survive, it needs to have desires---such as the desire to eat, sleep, seek shelter, mate....etc

If we were to be stewards on earth, why did God put us in Paradise first?---God created us for the purpose of being his stewards on earth and for this he gave us intelligence and a "nature" that would help us on earth. But----he also gave us one more thing....free-will. However, look at our development---do we come fully equipped with these 3 things (nature, intelligence and free-will) or do we develop them over time?---One needs only to observe children.....

Paradise was a time of nurturing and development....(like our time in our mother's womb.) Our ("first Parents")choice was simply a maturing of the 3 gifts of ---nature, intelligence and free-will----whatever the choice, once our "first Parents" matured enough to make their choices and be accountable for them, they would have been given the responsibility of the stewardship for which they were created. To do so before they were capable would have been unjust.

So why did God not create us "fully equipped" but required a state of development?---It is an interesting point---one might say it is because such a flexible state equips us to deal with the changes brought by time and circumstances better than a fixed "nature"/state would.....but perhaps there is something more....?

God creates----and interestingly, mankind also has this ability on a miniscule scale---through the use of "nature", intelligence and free-will---we can make use of our imaginations and CREATE !!! ----If we so chose---we could create a "Paradise" on earth.... one only needs to look at the magnificient creative power of the human imagination throughout history to realise this.....yet so far, we have used this power only for ego....not for the purpose God created us......

God did not create us without thought or plan. Nor has his plan gone awry because of human free-will. ---and because his plan has not gone wrong---it needs no fixing through sacrifice of God, Man, demi-God or anything else.

[siam]

By the way, upon comming to earth, God gave a 4th gift to (Prophet) Adam (pbuh)/Mankind...that was Islam/Guidance---the path to Submission to God's will through which we can fulfill the purpose for which we were created.....

[Amigo]

God created us for the purpose of being his stewards on earth

I think you are assuming that God needs us.

God needs no blood

Yes, God needs no blood, but man needs it to live.



peace

[siam]

@ Amigo---God needs us? No.
One(human) has "needs" because of a perception of lack. God does not lack.....

Does God have need of the Sun, the Planets, the Universe?....Yet he created them.....

[M.I.A.]

so the question arises, why god created us?

if he does not need us?

it feels like anybody that does not actively remove themselves from the religion, will be included in the religion.
ie if you follow the path of transgression then you follow the path of a constant misleader

so maybe it is not our test in entirety but for something that would not submit to adam pbuh and those that are mislead by him.

[Amigo]

so the question arises, why god created us?

if he does not need us?

it feels like anybody that does not actively remove themselves from the religion, will be included in the religion.
ie if you follow the path of transgression then you follow the path of a constant misleader

so maybe it is not our test in entirety but for something that would not submit to adam pbuh and those that are mislead by him.

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Could you please clarify further? Thanks.

peace

[Grace Seeker]

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Could you please clarify further? Thanks.

peace

It's a simple question. If God does not need us, then why did he create us. For purpose do we exist?

The classic answering in orthodox Christianity is "to glorify and praise God;" this is what all of creation does including stars, moons, planets, rocks, and trees. God has no need of this from us or any of his creation, but he nonetheless created us and all of creation for this purpose.

[Grace Seeker]

GS, you assume we were created to live in Paradise---but I say we were created from the first to be stewards (vicegerents) of earth. As such---we were created with a "nature" that would help us do so.

I don't see a conflict between those two assumptions.

But one conflict we do have is our presumption as to where "Paradise" was. If one accepts the Genesis account, then the "Paradise" that I was speaking of was the Garden of Eden and it was on earth.

I do agree that people were to be stewards of the earth. I do believe that God created us with the ability to do so. I don't believe that there was any necessity of desire as you describe it to accomplish that task. I believe that it was enough to have been created the image of God within us to do all that God needed us to do. But that we also have free will to make the decision to submit or not submit to God's will in our lives. This submission is one of the ways in which we would glorify God at a higher level than those elements of creation that are subject merely to the laws of nature and have no free will to chose to do what God desires, but do so by their nature rather than their free choice.

[Amigo]

It's a simple question. If God does not need us, then why did he create us. For purpose do we exist?

The classic answering in orthodox Christianity is "to glorify and praise God;" this is what all of creation does including stars, moons, planets, rocks, and trees. God has no need of this from us or any of his creation, but he nonetheless created us and all of creation for this purpose.

I was talking about his answers to the question, not the questions.
As for me, I am familiar with that classic answer. However, that answer is given by the believer not by God to be precise. It means more like "Thanksgiving" and it is more to the question "What should do we do with our lives?" The believer is not wrong as he speaks from the Creature's point of view, however, God would answer from the Creator's point of view, and his answer is different. Saying that God created us to praise Him can sound like God is an egomaniac, hungry for praise and glory. Seeing then God as a slave-driver would not be wrong, nor the plain refusal to believe in such 'a' God.



peace

[M.I.A.]

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Could you please clarify further? Thanks.

peace

your a muslim,
if you are a good or bad muslim is something that is ever changing.. we walk through this place worried about how allah swt will judge us.
but along the way we meet people very different from ourselves (even at our lowest) be it for a moment, in passing or for a lifetime.

you wont know who they are but if they see something of you that they like, they might want to learn about who you are.

so that is the responsibility of a muslim, how you reciprocate and if you take advantage (for yourself) or try to help(for others).

you can relate that last sentence to the quran, about those that would trade knowledge for this life..paraphrased

..its an ego killer for sure and has put proper fear of allah swt into me, even though my interpretation may be completely wrong.

also help is not always monetary.

allah swt will judge each of us, so understand that its always a personal test.
depends on if you believe in an afterlife or not.

want this life or the next?

obtain knowledge,

want this life or the next?

obtain money,

want this life or the next?

...the list goes on.
and so i would assume, do the tests.

edit*
there is a story that made me believe that there is more than this life,
that of the prophet muhammed pbuh

his fondness for horses and his act to rectify this in the cause of god.
hope somebody narrates it better.

[Amigo]

your a muslim,
if you are a good or bad muslim is something that is ever changing.. we walk through this place worried about how allah swt will judge us.
but along the way we meet people very different from ourselves (even at our lowest) be it for a moment, in passing or for a lifetime.

you wont know who they are but if they see something of you that they like, they might want to learn about who you are.

so that is the responsibility of a muslim, how you reciprocate and if you take advantage (for yourself) or try to help(for others).

you can relate that last sentence to the quran, about those that would trade knowledge for this life..paraphrased

..its an ego killer for sure and has put proper fear of allah swt into me, even though my interpretation may be completely wrong.

also help is not always monetary.

allah swt will judge each of us, so understand that its always a personal test.
depends on if you believe in an afterlife or not.

want this life or the next?

obtain knowledge,

want this life or the next?

obtain money,

want this life or the next?

...the list goes on.
and so i would assume, do the tests.

Oh, I am not muslim, but I think I understand what you are trying to say, that we should not focus on this world but the next world/life.

[siam]

... But that we also have free will to make the decision to submit or not submit to God's will in our lives. This submission is one of the ways in which we would glorify God at a higher level than those elements of creation that are subject merely to the laws of nature and have no free will to chose to do what God desires, but do so by their nature rather than their free choice.

No one can judge the degree of submission to God except God---therefore, perhaps the best way to understand this would be that God has created us with an inherent capacity to submit to him, those creations that do not possess free-will do so to their full capacity---those creations that have free-will choose their degree of submission (to an extent). However, in order for God to have created all creation with an inherent capacity for submission, their needs to be "goodness"--in creations without free-will this is observed in the harmony and balance of their creation. In human beings, this comes about through a desire for altruism (as opposed to egoism) represented by humility, charity, compassion...etc

If one thinks that the "laws of nature" are apart from the will of God, it would be foolish for it is God that created the "laws of nature". Thus when the earth rotates around the sun, it is not merely submitting to the "laws of nature"---it is also submitting to the will of God---in doing so, planet earth is following the inherent "nature" of its own creation. Since this inherent nature is to fully submit to God's will, in balance and harmony, one can comprehend its "goodness". For human beings to achieve balance and harmony, we must also find our inherent "goodness" which is submission to God's will. When we strengthen the inherent goodness in our natures through submission to God's will, we will be able to create balance and harmony which leads to peace and tranquility which is the hallmark of "Paradise." (using the term here as an abstract/concept---not any particular place)

On the other hand, human beings can follow a different path, ---one we are currently on---which leads to oppression, injustice, imbalance and discord.....the path of the ego. To follow this path we must go against our inherent "natures"---that is why following this path always leads to dissatisfaction and unfullfilment. The more we pursue egoism, the more lacking we feel and to fill the hole, we pursue egoism with more vigor.....we end up oppressing ourselves instead of liberating the "self". Thus, the path of submission to God's will is actually the path of liberation......we find God(Spirituality) when we liberate the "self" from oppressive egoism. That is how human beings throughout time and geography, irrespective of their religious label, have found God/Spirituality.

Submission to God's will is not simply some belief in an arbrary convoluted doctrine/dogma---it is an action. Submission is not passivity---it is activity.....look at the universe, it is filled with activity.....For us humans, the path of Submission requires participation and effort. We must do...not just think. God's will = Right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

[siam]

It's a simple question. If God does not need us, then why did he create us. For purpose do we exist?

The classic answering in orthodox Christianity is "to glorify and praise God;" this is what all of creation does including stars, moons, planets, rocks, and trees. God has no need of this from us or any of his creation, but he nonetheless created us and all of creation for this purpose.

I agree.


An interesting question nonetheless----If God has no needs or desires, why create? Perhaps it has to do with Gods attributes of Compassion and Mercy?---It is only speculation.......perhaps "creation" is a result of the vastness of his compassion and mercy.....?

Which is why "creation" is inherently good......ofcourse, this brings up the question----if creation is inherently good---from where does evil arise.....?

[FS123]

According to Quran, God is the creator, it is one of His attributes -- simple as that. Compassion and Mercy comes next on how he deals with His creation. Purpose for us is to worship with our own freewill, that why he put us above angels. Angels doesn't have freewill, but we have. Even we do less than angels but God puts us above angels because when do worship God, we do it by our own freewill. Dr Lang goes into detail about this http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_...angels_ask.pdf

*****

The opening scene is heaven as God informs the angels that He is about
to place man on earth. Adam, the first man, has not yet appeared. From the
verses that follow, it is clear that at this point in the story Adam is free of
any wrongdoing. Nevertheless, God plans to place him (and his descen*
dants [6:165; 27:62; 35:39]) on earth in the role of vicegerent or vicar (khal*
ifah). There is no insinuation here that earthly life is to serve as a punish*
ment. The word khalifah means "a vicar," "a delegate," "a representative,"
"a person authorized to act for others." Therefore, it appears that man is
meant to represent and act on behalf of God in some sense.

The angels' reply is both fascinating and disturbing. In essence it asks,
"Why create and place on earth one who has it within his nature to corrupt
and commit terrible crimes? Why create this being, who will be the cause
and recipient of great suffering?" I t is obvious that the angels are referring
here to the very nature of mankind, since Adam, in the Qur'an, turns out
to be one of God's elect and not guilty of any major crime. The question
is made all the more significant when we consider who and from where it
comes.

When we think of angels, we imagine peaceful, pure, and holy creatures
in perfect and joyous submission to God.... This is what gives the
angels' question such force, for it asks: "Why create this patently corrupt and
flawed being when it is within Your power to create us?" Thus they say:
"While we celebrate your praises and glorify your holiness?" Their question
is given further amplification by the fact that it originates in heaven, for what
possible purpose could be served by placing man in an environment where
he could exercise freely his worst criminal inclinations? All of these consid*
erations culminate in the obvious objection: Why not place man with a suit*
able nature in heaven from the start? We are not even a single verse into the
story of man and we have already confronted our (the atheists') main com*
plaint. And, it is put in the mouths of the angels!

The verse ends not with an explanation, but a reminder of God's
superior knowledge, and hence, the implication that man's earthly life is
part of a grand design. Many western scholars have remarked that the
statement, "I know what you do not know," merely dismisses the angel's
question. However, as the sequence of passages will show, this is not the
case at all.

We move now to verse thirty-one, where we fmd that the Qur ' an con*
tinues to explore the angels' question.

And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He
placed them before the angels, and said, "Tell me their
names if you are right." (2:31)

Clearly, the angels' question is being addressed in this verse. Adam's
capacities for learning and acquiring knowledge, his ability to be taught, are
the focus of this initial response. The next verse demonstrates the angels'
inferiority in this respect. Special emphasis is placed on man's ability to
name, to represent by verbal symbols, "all things" that enter his conscious
mind: all his thoughts, fears, and hopes, in short, all that he c an perceive or
conceive. This allows man to communicate his experience and knowledge
on a relatively high level, as compared to the other creatures about him, and
gives all human learning a preeminent cumulative quality. In several places
in the Qur'an, this gift to mankind is singled out as one of the greatest boun*
ties bestowed on him by God.

They said: Glory to you: we have no knowledge except
what You taught us, in truth it is you who are the
Knowing, the Wise. (2:32)

In this verse, the angels plead their inability to perform such a task, for,
as they plainly state, it would demand a knowledge and wisdom beyond
their capacity. They maintain that its performance would, of course, be easy
for God, since His knowledge and wisdom is supreme, but that the same
could not be expected of them. In the next passage, we discover that Adam
possesses the level of intelligence necessary to accomplish the task and
hence, though his knowledge and wisdom are less than God's, it is yet
greater than the angels.

He said: "0 Adam! Tell them their names." When he had
told them their names, God said: "Did I not tell you that I
know what is unseen in the heavens and the earth and I
know what you reveal and conceal?" (2:33)

Here we have an emphatic statement that man's greater intellect figures
into an answer to the angels' question. We are informed that God takes all
into account, in particular, all aspects of the human personality: man's
potential for evil, which the angels' question "reveals," and his comple*
mentary and related capacity for moral and intellectual growth, which their
question "conceals." To drive home this point, the next verse has the angels
demonstrate their inferiority to Adam and shows that man's more complex
personality makes him a potentially superior being.

And behold, We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam"
and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was
proud: he was of the rejecters. (2:34)

We also fmd in this verse the birth of sin and temptation. The Qur'an
later informs us that Iblis (Satan) is of the j inn (18:50), a being created of a
smokeless fire (55:15) and who is insulted at the suggestion that he should
humble himself before a creature made of "putrid clay" (7:12; 17:61; 38:76).
Satan is portrayed as possessing a fiery, consuming, and destructive nature.
He allows his passions to explode out of control and initiates a pernicious
rampage. We are often told that money is at the root of all evil, but here the
lesson appears to be that pride and self-centeredness is at its core. Indeed,
many terrible wrongs are committed for no apparent material motive.

And we said: "0 Adam! Dwell you and your spouse in the
garden and eat freely there of what you wish, but come not
near this tree for you will be among the wrongdoers."
(2:35)

Thus the famous and fateful command. Yet, the tone of it seems curi*
ously restrained. There is no suggestion that the tree is in any way special;
it almost seems as if it were picked at random. Satan will later tempt Adam
with the promise of eternal life and "a kingdom that never decays"
(20:121), but this turns out to be a complete fabrication on his part. There
is not the slightest hint that God is somehow threatened at the prospect of
Adam and his spouse violating the command; instead, He voices concern
for them, because then "they will be among the wrongdoers."

This is probably an appropriate place to reflect on what we have
learned so far. We saw how God originally intended for man to have an
earthly life. We then observed a period of preparation during which man is
"taught" to use his intellectual gifts. Now, Adam and his spouse are pre*
sented a choice, of apparently no great consequence, except for the fact that
it is made to be a moral choice. I t thus seems that man has gradually
become -- or is about to become -- a moral being.

[Grace Seeker]

Siam, some good stuff. It seems that we think similarly on a lot of things, and I especially appreciate some of the new ways you bring to expressing it. Even when I said...

This submission is one of the ways in which we would glorify God at a higher level than those elements of creation that are subject merely to the laws of nature and have no free will to chose to do what God desires, but do so by their nature rather than their free choice.

...I don't think I was saying anything different than you've said above. God is the author of those laws of nature and so when trees do their part in turning sunlight & chlorophyll into sugar and soak up water from the ground to respirate into the air and in the process of doing both "breathe" in CO2 and "breath" out O2, it is all a part of submitting to God's design which glorifies him. So, I hope you didn't hear me imply that somehow creation doesn't submit to the will of God by referring to laws of nature. Laws of nature, be it gravity or weather patterns or methods of reproduction, are all a part of God's design.


I like the idea that God created us with an inherent capacity to submit to him. I too would argue that such a capacity is originally a part of our very creation. As a Christian I see this asserted particularly in the scriptural affirmation that we were created in the image of God, though I understand such a passage probably doesn't speak to you in the same way that it does to me. And then you get to the $64,000 question:

ofcourse, this brings up the question----if creation is inherently good---from where does evil arise.....?

How does Islam try to respond to this?


Capacity for submission is not the same thing as actual submission. Similarly I would argue that capacity for goodness is not the same thing as goodness. Could it be that empty capacity, like all other vaccums seeks to be filled with something? Of course that still doesn't answer why we would choose anti-God rather than God.


FS123, I also concur with you since when we worship God we do so out of our own freewill, not because we are simply wired that way, for this reason God puts us above angels. But then we have to ask, if Satan was once an angel (I think I remember that as something held in common by both Christianity and Islam) then how/why could he have rebelled against God's will?

[FS123]

FS123, I also concur with you since when we worship God we do so out of our own freewill, not because we are simply wired that way, for this reason God puts us above angels. But then we have to ask, if Satan was once an angel (I think I remember that as something held in common by both Christianity and Islam) then how/why could he have rebelled against God's will?

Satan was not once angel in Islam. Read the passage I quoted it gives the whole background.

We also fmd in this verse the birth of sin and temptation. The Qur'an
later informs us that Iblis (Satan) is of the j inn (18:50), a being created of a
smokeless fire (55:15) and who is insulted at the suggestion that he should
humble himself before a creature made of "putrid clay" (7:12; 17:61; 38:76).
Satan is portrayed as possessing a fiery, consuming, and destructive nature.
He allows his passions to explode out of control and initiates a pernicious
rampage. We are often told that money is at the root of all evil, but here the
lesson appears to be that pride and self-centeredness is at its core. Indeed,
many terrible wrongs are committed for no apparent material motive.

[siam]

FS
Thankyou for the post---Dr Lang expresses well some things that have crossed my mind also.

[Pygoscelis]

Is it crazy to assert that what God has done is not act to condemn, but to save?

I find that crazy. The thing about Jesus the saviour is that to have a saviour you need to have something to be saved from, so hell is necesary, and us being declared deserving of hell is necesary and that is to condemn. It is condemnation along with an escape, but this is also the case when a mugger demands "your money or your life". All you have to do is give him your money and you are saved. Nevermind that he is the one threatening you in the first place.

[siam]

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism......

But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.
First though, what is evil?---for example, is death evil?, the death of a loved one can cause pain, is pain evil? Buddha and Lao Tzu might say that these are simply perceptions caused by our attachment to things....that changing these perceptions of loss can free us from such pain......so, I feel that perhaps "evil" may be an incorrect label to use for phenomenon of death and birth, for decay and growth, for destruction and renewal caused by the natural cycles. This then leaves us to attach this label to deliberate action by human beings to cause harm.

Epictetus says that bad deeds are a result of the perpetrators adopting unsound beliefs---in other words, wrong beliefs promote wrong intentions that lead to wrong actions that result in harm. This means that "evil" is not a thing or entity that "arises" as the question implies----it is a consequence of wrong belief. The root of wrong belief is egoic desire. (the story of Iblis in the Quran highlights this). The other problem with the question is that it asks "from where"....there can be no power other than God. To suppose that a natural inclination given by God's will can be overcome by a power (supposedly) superior is problematic. Therefore, it cannot be that human will can overcome the inherent goodness within all creation that inclines creation to submit to God's will.

Yet, humans cause harm....this is obvious....to say it is because of ego is an inadequate answer.....for it is God who created us.....and so the Angels ask---why create such a creature? ----Perhaps there is another way to look at this....? The Quran uses an interesting word---Kaffir---which has the meaning of "one who covers up....with dirt". That is, right belief---which is our natural inclination, must be covered up (with dirt) in order for human beings to commit harm/evil. Yet, this also means that this natural inclination to goodness is not eliminated, only covered up---and therefore exists in all of us. Repentence is the action of removing the dirt covering it up. That is why God provides sustenance to all of us both good and bad---because if we so choose, all of us, even the bad among us, have the capacity for repentence.

But what about the question the Angels asked?---Angels don't have free-will and so are able to do God's will perfectly. But humans have both intelligence and free-will. Could it be that though the Angels can execute God's commands perfectly---to the letter----they cannot go beyond? Perhaps the combination of free-will and intelligence means that we humans have the ability not just to do God's will, but perhaps have the capacity to use our imaginations to accomplish much more.....that is, not just the letter, but the spirit......? Could this potential in us be the reason we were created? such a perspective opens up interesting possibilities----that perhaps creating "Paradise" on earth is an achievable goal, with God's help, because we have the potential to do so if we so desired....? ...and that is perhaps why we have been created with desires----because without this wanting for better, we cannot accomplish the goal....

But desires can go both ways---egoic desires and altruistic desires----that is why RIGHT belief is so important. Right belief promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations----any belief that stops at rhetoric and dogma is insufficient.....

[Grace Seeker]

I find that crazy. The thing about Jesus the saviour is that to have a saviour you need to have something to be saved from, so hell is necesary, and us being declared deserving of hell is necesary and that is to condemn. It is condemnation along with an escape, but this is also the case when a mugger demands "your money or your life". All you have to do is give him your money and you are saved. Nevermind that he is the one threatening you in the first place.

Pygoscelis, from the Christian view, one is not being cast into hell if one rejects Christ. We believe that already mankind has fallen into a hole so deep he cannot extricate himself. God not only acts to save, but himself enters the hole in order to both show and provide a way out. There is no mugger. They is only the result of our own missteps. And salvation is to escape that condition in which we already live. Now, admittedly some have been in the hole long enough like fleas trained not to jump they have learned to live with the situation and feel no need for anything beyond the present experience. Be that as it may. They are not condemned for not following Christ to a new realm. But it remains that if they do not follow Christ's lead they, not God, have determined that they shall not be saved to something else.

[Grace Seeker]

Satan was not once angel in Islam. Read the passage I quoted it gives the whole background.

The passage you quoted doesn't quite give the "whole" background. I was previously also aware of this verse:

[7:11] We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.


Based on this it seemed to me that Satan was indeed one of the angeles.

Was he first an angel and then turned into a jinn or vice versa? Why does the Qur'an say he is an angel in one verse and a jinn in another?
(I should note, this is just a curiousity, not important at all to our overall discussion.)

[Predator]

The passage you quoted doesn't quite give the "whole" background. I was previously also aware of this verse:

[7:11] We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.


Based on this it seemed to me that Satan was indeed one of the angeles.

Was he first an angel and then turned into a jinn or vice versa? Why does the Qur'an say he is an angel in one verse and a jinn in another?
(I should note, this is just a curiousity, not important at all to our overall discussion.)

Iblis was a jinn and not an angel . This has been addressed already here

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...html#post61811

[M.I.A.]

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism......

But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.
First though, what is evil?---for example, is death evil?, the death of a loved one can cause pain, is pain evil? Buddha and Lao Tzu might say that these are simply perceptions caused by our attachment to things....that changing these perceptions of loss can free us from such pain......so, I feel that perhaps "evil" may be an incorrect label to use for phenomenon of death and birth, for decay and growth, for destruction and renewal caused by the natural cycles. This then leaves us to attach this label to deliberate action by human beings to cause harm.

Epictetus says that bad deeds are a result of the perpetrators adopting unsound beliefs---in other words, wrong beliefs promote wrong intentions that lead to wrong actions that result in harm. This means that "evil" is not a thing or entity that "arises" as the question implies----it is a consequence of wrong belief. The root of wrong belief is egoic desire. (the story of Iblis in the Quran highlights this). The other problem with the question is that it asks "from where"....there can be no power other than God. To suppose that a natural inclination given by God's will can be overcome by a power (supposedly) superior is problematic. Therefore, it cannot be that human will can overcome the inherent goodness within all creation that inclines creation to submit to God's will.

Yet, humans cause harm....this is obvious....to say it is because of ego is an inadequate answer.....for it is God who created us.....and so the Angels ask---why create such a creature? ----Perhaps there is another way to look at this....? The Quran uses an interesting word---Kaffir---which has the meaning of "one who covers up....with dirt". That is, right belief---which is our natural inclination, must be covered up (with dirt) in order for human beings to commit harm/evil. Yet, this also means that this natural inclination to goodness is not eliminated, only covered up---and therefore exists in all of us. Repentence is the action of removing the dirt covering it up. That is why God provides sustenance to all of us both good and bad---because if we so choose, all of us, even the bad among us, have the capacity for repentence.

But what about the question the Angels asked?---Angels don't have free-will and so are able to do God's will perfectly. But humans have both intelligence and free-will. Could it be that though the Angels can execute God's commands perfectly---to the letter----they cannot go beyond? Perhaps the combination of free-will and intelligence means that we humans have the ability not just to do God's will, but perhaps have the capacity to use our imaginations to accomplish much more.....that is, not just the letter, but the spirit......? Could this potential in us be the reason we were created? such a perspective opens up interesting possibilities----that perhaps creating "Paradise" on earth is an achievable goal, with God's help, because we have the potential to do so if we so desired....? ...and that is perhaps why we have been created with desires----because without this wanting for better, we cannot accomplish the goal....

But desires can go both ways---egoic desires and altruistic desires----that is why RIGHT belief is so important. Right belief promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations----any belief that stops at rhetoric and dogma is insufficient.....

i dont think attachment is a bad thing, to care for a person and to empathize sincerely with a person is something that when used as a foundation for relationship is immense.
in life and death.

its like in the workplace i think we are all pretending, it becomes easy easy to act like a muslim, reducing frustration and being able to see people are nice underneath.

when i go home i forget im a muslim and things become more real..its a strange struggle

i dont know how else to explain it??

[siam]

"i dont think attachment is a bad thing"---I agree---that is why we have such desire....attachment that comes from compassion and mercy are necessary for human beings for we are social in nature. However, attachment/desire can also be for selfish/egoic purposes---this type of attachment/desire can become excessive.


:Dibn Siraj (1114 CE ?) said "scatter your good deeds all around. Not caring wether they fall on those near or far away. Just as the rain never cares where the clouds pour it out, wether on fertile ground or on rocks." --Ofcourse, since we all want others to reciprocrate---its not as easy as it sounds....;D

[siam]

"i dont think attachment is a bad thing"---I agree---that is why we have such desire....attachment that comes from compassion and mercy are necessary for human beings for we are social in nature. However, attachment/desire can also be for selfish/egoic purposes---this type of attachment/desire can become excessive.


:Dibn Siraj (1114 CE ?) said "scatter your good deeds all around. Not caring wether they fall on those near or far away. Just as the rain never cares where the clouds pour it out, wether on fertile ground or on rocks." --Ofcourse, since we all want others to reciprocrate---its not as easy as it sounds....;D

[siam]

God created us---he gave us an intellect---we can use our intelligence and reason to arrive at right belief---and if this alone was all that was required of us---Why did he give us bodies? We use our bodies as vehicles to interact with our environment---and "to do". Activity requires the use of our body. That is why Right belief must create a transformative force that moves it from the intellectual realm to that of right action.

[Grace Seeker]

Iblis was a jinn and not an angel . This has been addressed already here

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...html#post61811

Quite seriously I appreciate the link. I read it and can see what was being said. But I also want to make a personal comment: after reading that discussion, I don't ever want to hear again that anyone has objections to my long and involved posts that turn on context and nuances of a word in the original languages rather than English.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

[Amigo]

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism...... But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.

I agree with your answer. The question is not at all foolish. Irs answer makes enormous difference in how people and philosophies understand life and its meaning.
God is all good and the source of all goodness.
Evil is that which the creatures is the true source.
In fact the difference between good and evil is the difference between their sources. Good from God. Evil from the creatures.
This is not to mean that the creatures are bad, but that when they resist and/or act against divine will, they resist goodness itself, and by doing so, they originate evil in that very act.

I like this quote from St. Augustine when he was discussing original sin.

When, therefore, man lives according to man, not according to God, he is like the devil. Because not even an angel might live according to an angel, but only according to God, if he was to abide in the truth, and speak God's truth and not his own lie... When, then, a man lives according to the truth, he lives not according to himself, but according to God... When, therefore, man lives according to himself—that is, according to man, not according to God—assuredly he lives according to a lie; not that man himself is a lie, for God is his author and creator, who is certainly not the author and creator of a lie, but because man was made upright, that he might not live according to himself, but according to Him that made him—in other words, that he might do His will and not his own; and not to live as he was made to live, that is a lie.

[siam]

I agree with your answer. The question is not at all foolish. Irs answer makes enormous difference in how people and philosophies understand life and its meaning.
God is all good and the source of all goodness.
Evil is that which the creatures is the true source.
In fact the difference between good and evil is the difference between their sources. Good from God. Evil from the creatures.
This is not to mean that the creatures are bad, but that when they resist and/or act against divine will, they resist goodness itself, and by doing so, they originate evil in that very act.

I like this quote from St. Augustine when he was discussing original sin.

I agree generally with what you say but disagree with Augustine---not just about the quote---but his whole philosophy of original sin.
Because our nature IS inherently good---man was meant to act according to his inherent nature---That is why desires are not "evil". ---it is excessive attachment to desires that creates consequences that can harm---and this is where "wrong belief" enters the scene. Desires can be channelled for the benefit of all of God's creations and this can bring about much good.

I also disagree with the sentiment that creatures/creation is the "source" of "evil". If God is ominicient, omnipotent...etc, then to attribute powers to a creature/creation is problematic. Our nature and the state of all creation is the will of God. ---so, why are we in a state in which we may be predisposed to good, but have the potential to harm? Because God is not only most compassionate, most merciful,---He is also Most Just. To oppress is an injustice. To create us with free-will---and then to take it away so that we are incapable of choice--is to oppress--because it is to take away liberties that he himself gave us in the first place!
So, why do I claim that God is most merciful, most compassionate? It is his compassion and mercy that created us (and all creation) that is why we are inherently good---and though free-will gives us the potential to harm---our inherent nature gives us the potential to repent and God who is most compassionate, most merciful forgives us.
But what of those who are so arrogantly stubborn, they refuse to ask God's forgiveness for the harm they have caused?---God who is most merciful, most compassionate gives us many tests, trials, opportunities and invitations to remember him and to ask his forgiveness. If we fail to do so in our time on earth---we must face the consequences at the time of Judgement. He promises Justice so that no soul shall be wronged.

[FS123]

my theological issues with original sin: It seems unfair to pass on the sin to children who have nothing to do with it.

Jewish point of view is similar to Islam too http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ginal_Sin.html

[siam]

collective sin/guilt---interesting point FS.

Ego is a state of self-awareness. We cannot be unique individuals without being self-aware. We also need to be self-aware in order to do God's will---which is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. And God's creations includes not just "You" but "Me/I" as well. If a person is barely surviving, then it would be difficult for that person to take care of the needs of his neighbor. A person whose own needs are reasonably met---will have the opportunities to take care of those who need care....but in order to take care of our needs---we need to be self-aware.

But to be a self-aware, unique, individual, means that we are also individually accountable for our beliefs, intentions and actions. Therefore the excuse---I just followed others---cannot work at Judgement day....an individual is responsible for his actions, intentions and beliefs and will be accountable for his choices. And because we were created inherently good---the excuse--I did not know----also will not work. With the rare exception of those who may have mental incapacities---we are aware when we do wrong/harm.

Yet, in order to do God's will---we must not only be individuals--but also be capable of altruism/charity. So God, in his wisdom, created us social in nature.---aware of others. But awareness of the "other" is not enough---if it produces actions out of pity. God is the Creator of all creation---which means he created "Me/I" and "You". ---And if we are all creations of the One God--then "I" and "You" are equal---not superior or inferior. Therefore, "You" are as entitled to the bounties and blessings of God as "I" am. It is this sense of brotherhood that will bring us to the path of peace.

However, the potential for a sense of brotherhood---or our social nature does not mean that the rewards and punishments for our choices are collective---For Justice requires that we are independantly accountable for our individual choices. Even when a choice was made by a group---we are individually responsible because free-will is an individual gift from God. That is why neither bad deeds nor good deeds can be passed onto anothers shoulder. God is Most Just.

[M.I.A.]

collective sin/guilt---interesting point FS.

Ego is a state of self-awareness. We cannot be unique individuals without being self-aware. We also need to be self-aware in order to do God's will---which is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. And God's creations includes not just "You" but "Me/I" as well. If a person is barely surviving, then it would be difficult for that person to take care of the needs of his neighbor. A person whose own needs are reasonably met---will have the opportunities to take care of those who need care....but in order to take care of our needs---we need to be self-aware.

But to be a self-aware, unique, individual, means that we are also individually accountable for our beliefs, intentions and actions. Therefore the excuse---I just followed others---cannot work at Judgement day....an individual is responsible for his actions, intentions and beliefs and will be accountable for his choices. And because we were created inherently good---the excuse--I did not know----also will not work. With the rare exception of those who may have mental incapacities---we are aware when we do wrong/harm.

Yet, in order to do God's will---we must not only be individuals--but also be capable of altruism/charity. So God, in his wisdom, created us social in nature.---aware of others. But awareness of the "other" is not enough---if it produces actions out of pity. God is the Creator of all creation---which means he created "Me/I" and "You". ---And if we are all creations of the One God--then "I" and "You" are equal---not superior or inferior. Therefore, "You" are as entitled to the bounties and blessings of God as "I" am. It is this sense of brotherhood that will bring us to the path of peace.

However, the potential for a sense of brotherhood---or our social nature does not mean that the rewards and punishments for our choices are collective---For Justice requires that we are independantly accountable for our individual choices. Even when a choice was made by a group---we are individually responsible because free-will is an individual gift from God. That is why neither bad deeds nor good deeds can be passed onto anothers shoulder. God is Most Just.

we should treat each other equally
but it is our actions and intent that set us apart from each other, those that use the quran as there criterion of personal judgement should in theory have a better chance of receiving/understanding guidance and putting it into practice.

the application of knowledge and the purpose of its use is equally as important, you can have all the knowledge in the world but if you cant put it into practice then that is ultimately the proof of god we require.

the way you talk to people in manner, tone, sentence structure, body language, intent, emotion and reasoning all affects the outcome.
but ultimately if a person wants to disregard something, they will.

and sometimes we say the wrong thing also.

so the success of action is very much with god, the more aware you get the more apparent it gets.
and the more manipulation you use in your message the more fearful you get of what you are saying...or you should do.

[Amigo]

I agree generally with what you say but disagree with Augustine---not just about the quote---but his whole philosophy of original sin.
Because our nature IS inherently good---man was meant to act according to his inherent nature---That is why desires are not "evil". ---it is excessive attachment to desires that creates consequences that can harm---and this is where "wrong belief" enters the scene. Desires can be channelled for the benefit of all of God's creations and this can bring about much good.

I also disagree with the sentiment that creatures/creation is the "source" of "evil". If God is ominicient, omnipotent...etc, then to attribute powers to a creature/creation is problematic. Our nature and the state of all creation is the will of God. ---so, why are we in a state in which we may be predisposed to good, but have the potential to harm? Because God is not only most compassionate, most merciful,---He is also Most Just. To oppress is an injustice. To create us with free-will---and then to take it away so that we are incapable of choice--is to oppress--because it is to take away liberties that he himself gave us in the first place!
So, why do I claim that God is most merciful, most compassionate? It is his compassion and mercy that created us (and all creation) that is why we are inherently good---and though free-will gives us the potential to harm---our inherent nature gives us the potential to repent and God who is most compassionate, most merciful forgives us.
But what of those who are so arrogantly stubborn, they refuse to ask God's forgiveness for the harm they have caused?---God who is most merciful, most compassionate gives us many tests, trials, opportunities and invitations to remember him and to ask his forgiveness. If we fail to do so in our time on earth---we must face the consequences at the time of Judgement. He promises Justice so that no soul shall be wronged.

The point is that man can do nothing good without God.
Evil is an act/desire/intention/etc which lacks the participation/pleasure/blessing of God.
God is all good and only good and all goodness comes from Him and Him alone.
However, since Creatures have self-determination, and God does not impose his goodness on creatures, Creatures have to be open to the goodness of God in order for them to be good and produce goodness.
When a creature does things 'alone'/without God, these kinds of things which are done without God's pleasure/blessing are the things which are by nature evil. They lack the will of God in them and so they are acursed from the foundation and are evil by nature.
Just as darkness is by nature the lack of light so evil is by nature the lack of God's goodness.
Evil is not an essence in itself or a power or anything that is a 'thing' with some kind of integrity...
Evil is a disorder, and malfunction, an ANOMALY...these can only have as origins imperfections. A car is good when running in order, but let it run out of control...it will (nearly) personify evil and will harm anyone in its way. Although God permits this to happen, God is not the origninator, some creature's imperfections are.

This is not to say that God is not everywhere or that his will is not everywhere. God is there and his Holy Will.
God is in everything, only his status so to speak is relative to the thing itself:
If the thing is in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Blessing and blessing it.
If the thing is not in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Curse, and condemning it.


peace

[M.I.A.]

The point is that man can do nothing good without God.
Evil is an act/desire/intention/etc which lacks the participation/pleasure/blessing of God.
God is all good and only good and all goodness comes from Him and Him alone.
However, since Creatures have self-determination, and God does not impose his goodness on creatures, Creatures have to be open to the goodness of God in order for them to be good and produce goodness.
When a creature does things 'alone'/without God, these kinds of things which are done without God's pleasure/blessing are the things which are by nature evil. This is why evil can only originate from the creature with self-determination.
This is the nature of evil, that it lacks the will of God in it. Just as darkness is the lack of light and spells disaster because all kinds of hurts can happen in it.
Evil is not an essence in itself or a power or anything that is a 'thing' with some kind of integrity...
Evil is a disorder, and malfunction, an ANOMALY...these can only have as origins imperfections. A car is good when running in order, but let it run out of control...it will (nearly) personify evil and will harm anyone in its way. Although God permits this to happen, God is not the origninator, some creature's imperfections are.

This is not to say that God is not everywhere or that his will is not everywhere. God is there and his Holy Will.
God is in everything, only his status so to speak is relative to the thing itself:
If the thing is in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Blessing and blessing it.
If the thing is not in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Curse, and condemning it.


peace

no, just as you have said god is a constant
it would seem that scripture indicates evil is also a constant.

we can use the argument of predetermination in its broadest sense.

if gods will is ever manifest.. as we believe

and we also have free will.. as we believe

then evil should be in a state of constant loss, to think of anybody in constant loss i do not see evil.. only misdirection

true evil is of those that have understood and then used understanding at the cost of others.

unfortunately where do you draw the line?
when you cant win for fear of consequence, you become the state of constant personal loss.
but a plus side is that others will benefit.

[Amigo]

no, just as you have said god is a constant
it would seem that scripture indicates evil is also a constant.

we can use the argument of predetermination in its broadest sense.

if gods will is ever manifest.. as we believe

and we also have free will.. as we believe

then evil should be in a state of constant loss, to think of anybody in constant loss i do not see evil.. only misdirection

true evil is of those that have understood and then used understanding at the cost of others.

unfortunately where do you draw the line?
when you cant win for fear of consequence, you become the state of constant personal loss.
but a plus side is that others will benefit.

God knows how to derive good out of evil, so God always wins so to speak, and yes, this is a plus for good people. All things work for the good of those who love God.

[M.I.A.]

God knows how to derive good out of evil, so God always wins so to speak, and yes, this is a plus for good people. All things work for the good of those who love God.

its said to hate the action and not the person.

yeah i guess god has no need of winning, as he has no need of anything.
but people do, some of the victories achieved in his name can hardly be put into a good vs evil boundary.
you can look at the holocaust, any world war, Chechnya, Vietnam, palastine.

winning does not indicate goodness, if it does then look at those in error.

[siam]

If God is omnipotent, then nothing can happen unless he wills it.
If God is omnipresent, then there cannot be a state where God is not present.
If God is a Just, Compassionate, Merciful, Creator, then he would not have created us inherently evil.
Therefore, good/evil cannot be caused by the presence or absence of God, nor can they be against his will. And if all creation is inherently good---evil/harm cannot be because of an absence of good.

We have free-will because God wills it. Because of free-will, we have the liberty to choose. Because of this liberty, we have responsibility for our choices. Because of this responsibility, we will be held accountable. That is why there is Judgement.

Why is Judgement after death and not here on earth?
Because God is Just, Compassionate, and Merciful and gives us every opportunity to repent.
God can (and does) reward and punish on earth, but both of these are tests and trials for our growth because he is Just, Compassionate and Merciful. Because we were created inherently good---we do not need justification for good---but justify evil/harm by self-deception. Self-deception is a choice---one in which we are aware of both the self (self-aware) and the deception (justification) for the harm. Therefore, there is no excuse for the harm humans cause. To do Justice to those who misuse God's gift of free-will by choosing to harm---there is hell. And, as MIA mentioned, when we consider the various atrocities committed by man....Falluja, Abu Ghraib, Guantanomo.....etc we can see that hell is necessary........

[Grace Seeker]

my theological issues with original sin: It seems unfair to pass on the sin to children who have nothing to do with it.

Jewish point of view is similar to Islam too http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ginal_Sin.html

Again, it isn't the sin of Adam that is passed on to his children, it is the consequence of that sin. And personally I don't think that is fair either, but if you object take it up not with God, but with Adam.

Adam's sin changed him. It changed the world in which he lived. That which had been perfect, no longer was. We are all born into that imperfect world, and it does effect us. To say that we are born into a sinless state is to claim that somehow the bell once rung can be unrung. I've never known that to be true with anything else in life, how does one suppose that it could be true with regard to sin?

I'm not saying that we are born actually guilty of committing sin, but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners. From the moment of our birth sin is a part of our lives and we cannot escape it, at least not own our own power and merits.

[Grace Seeker]

And if all creation is inherently good---evil/harm cannot be because of an absence of good.

</p>
How does one define either "evil" or "good"? Which one is the natural state, and which is the perversion or absence of the other?

I want to suggest that just as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light, so too evil is the absence of good. And God is good, therefore without God only evil would exist. When God is absent in a person's life, however apparently good they may appear from a human perspective, we are still really evil when measured by a divine standard such as God himself.

Thus, when we were created to live in fellowship with God and God was present in our lives it could be said even of humanity that we were good. But God didn't want automatons, he wanted people of free-will choosing to be in relationship with him. And so, if we were to be able to choose God, we had to be able for it to actually be a choice, and not something with a predetermined outcome. Therefore, God created us with the ability to choose God or to not choose God. In other words, we were free to choose either good or evil. This does not make the capacity for choice an evil itself, indeed I would actually argue it is a good. But the results of that free choice had to allow for the capacity for evil just as much as they allowed for the capacity of good.

Thus it is that a good God does not have to create evil, but simply to allow for it. For the moment that he allows for a part of his creation to live apart from him, then while all of that which God has created is good, that his good creation might choose to divorce itself from its creator is to cut itself off from that which is good, and hence enter into that which (by my definition) is evil.

[siam]

for this discussion---at least for my responses, "evil" is confined to the harm caused by humans (due to wrong belief/egoism)---and good would be defined as that which benefits all of God's creations......

There CANNOT be an "absence" of God if God is all present/eternally existent----in other words to say God is "absent"/not present means that one believes God is NOT always present. This would go against the "eternally existent" understanding of God as not only is God all present but also all active---that is, he does not rest/sleep/slack off/not exist for a while/is in this place but not that.....etc.....etc

[siam]

but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners.

I disagree----God is compassionate and merciful---and "merciful" means forgiving......

[FS123]

Again, it isn't the sin of Adam that is passed on to his children, it is the consequence of that sin. And personally I don't think that is fair either, but if you object take it up not with God, but with Adam.

Adam's sin changed him. It changed the world in which he lived. That which had been perfect, no longer was. We are all born into that imperfect world, and it does effect us. To say that we are born into a sinless state is to claim that somehow the bell once rung can be unrung. I've never known that to be true with anything else in life, how does one suppose that it could be true with regard to sin?

I'm not saying that we are born actually guilty of committing sin, but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners. From the moment of our birth sin is a part of our lives and we cannot escape it, at least not own our own power and merits.

Whether you call it a sin or consequence it doesn't matter because it is passed down to children who had nothing to do with it, which seems unfair. It is like when person commits a crime that person goes to jail, but then his children and their children have to live in jail for the crime they didn't commit. See where the problem is? Adam changed, that doesn't matter because in the end it is up to God, it is the system of God, so why pass it to children when they had nothing to with the changed state of Adam or whatever. Hence, the objection of Atheist, and many have become Atheist over this issue. In Islam this is not the issue, since man is supposed to spend time in this world from the beginning, it is not the consequences of Adam's sin. Each person is responsible for only their own self's.

[siam]

"Thus it is that a good God does not have to create evil, but simply to allow for it."
---but one might complain that if God is most powerful, most compassionate, most merciful--and therefore does not "create" evil----then why does he bother to "allow" it"?---free-will and Justice answers this question somewhat---but let us look more closely......

When we consider free-will---we understand that this free-will is "conditional" in that we will have to be accountable for our intentions and actions. Therefore, God's "allowance" is actually conditional----our choices will result in punishment(hell) or reward(Paradise). This warning has been given since the beginning.

When it comes to human nature---we can see that we have been created so that we develop various "tools" such as ego(self-awareness), desires, intelligence, and free-will. These tools are not harmful in themselves----but they can be used by humans to cause harm.

What is the difference between the harm caused by humans and that which occurs naturally (such as natural disasters?) The harm by humans is often deliberate and malicious---but nature is simply following its course/cycle of death and birth....

Can God harm?----Yes.....is he not the creator of hell?;D
It would be ridiculous to attribute "malicious intent" to God as God has no wants/desires. Maimonides said "the only divine plan is that which allows humankind to shape its own destiny"

God, the most compassionate, the most merciful, the most just, has empowered us to choose our destiny---we can either follow our inherent nature (good) which is predisposed to submit to God's will and thus fulfill the purpose for which we were created---to do God's will---which is to have right belief, that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations---or we can opt for wrong belief (self-delusion) that promotes wrong intentions that harms God's creations. Our free-will is conditional---and the condition is that we wil be held accountable for our choices.

Yet, hell is only one aspect---there is also Paradise. If God is most compassionate, most merciful, most just,--- then Paradise becomes necessary----for those who have suffered pain, injustice, oppression, torture....etc at the hands of other human beings----compensation becomes necessary for justice. (likewise for other injuries/suffering caused by the natural cycles). Therefore, blessings and trials on earth as well as hell and paradise are a necessary part of his grand design...........


......I am still forming my thoughts on this aspect/theory.....comments/criticism welcome.....

[Grace Seeker]

Whether you call it a sin or consequence it doesn't matter because it is passed down to children who had nothing to do with it, which seems unfair. It is like when person commits a crime that person goes to jail, but then his children and their children have to live in jail for the crime they didn't commit. See where the problem is? Adam changed, that doesn't matter because in the end it is up to God, it is the system of God, so why pass it to children when they had nothing to with the changed state of Adam or whatever. Hence, the objection of Atheist, and many have become Atheist over this issue. In Islam this is not the issue, since man is supposed to spend time in this world from the beginning, it is not the consequences of Adam's sin. Each person is responsible for only their own self's.

But what you describe about a child living in jail for a crime they didn't commit happens all the time. I agree it isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

And Islam can likewise claim that living in the world we do is what is supposed to happen, but that also doesn't change the fact that we live in this world, rather than paradise, as a consequence of Adam's choices, not our own.

The other interesting point that you made is that in the end it is up to God. So, given that the reality is that we all live in a world in which evil does exist, what you are saying is that God chooses to expose us to evil even though he knows that some of us will fail the test and fall into evil. He could have prevented that, but chose not to. If God is good and all that he does is to work good in our lives, then that leaves us to ask the question, what is good about leaving people to fall prey to evil? If the premise is in error, then God is not good nad he does not work for good in our lives. Such a view does not fit the understanding of God within Christianity, does it fit Islam?

[جوري]

, but that doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

what other meaning is there if we're to presume that God is just?

(No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.) thus emphasizing Allah's reckoning, decision and justice that will occur on the Day of Resurrection. The souls will only be recompensed for their deeds, good for good and evil for evil. No person shall carry the burden of another person, a fact that indicates Allah's perfect justice.




And every man's work have WE fasten to his neck; and on the Day of Resurrection WE shall bring out for him a book which he will find wide open. It will be said to him, ‘Read thy book. Sufficient is thy own soul as a reckoner against thee this day.’ He who follows the right way follows it only for the good of his own soul; and he who goes astray, goes astray only to his own loss. And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another. And WE shall never punish until WE have sent a Messenger.

desist Grace Seeker from spreading the word of the devil, when Allah's word has been made manifest and clear!

best

[FS123]

And Islam can likewise claim that living in the world we do is what is supposed to happen, but that also doesn't change the fact that we live in this world, rather than paradise, as a consequence of Adam's choices, not our own.

No in Islam it is not because of the consequences of Adam's choices. I think you have not read the quoted passage: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1454579

Short answer, we are suppose to be here as khalifah. The word khalifah means "a vicar," "a delegate," "a representative," "a person authorized to act for others." Therefore, it appears that man is meant to represent and act on behalf of God in some sense.

The other interesting point that you made is that in the end it is up to God. So, given that the reality is that we all live in a world in which evil does exist, what you are saying is that God chooses to expose us to evil even though he knows that some of us will fail the test and fall into evil. He could have prevented that, but chose not to. If God is good and all that he does is to work good in our lives, then that leaves us to ask the question, what is good about leaving people to fall prey to evil? If the premise is in error, then God is not good nad he does not work for good in our lives. Such a view does not fit the understanding of God within Christianity, does it fit Islam?

That is also explained in that passage there. I recommend reading the book, most of the book is for Muslims and issues of facing Islamic community but there are chapters like ch 2 & 5 that would explain you Islamic perspective. Overall, that book is a good read if you want to have an understanding from Islamic point of view.

Short answer is we have freewill and God wants us to make moral choices and have moral growth with our own freewill. But freewill comes with consequences that some people will do bad, but it is up to them; hence, the guidance of God and His sending of prophets to guide humans and jinns. Read the quoted passage, it will save both of us sometime.

An analogy is with a teacher, he gives his students tests and wants its pupils to pass, but that doesn't mean everyone will pass, but it is up to the students. Even if some students who are not smart enough, a good teacher, always gives provisions for every hard working student to at least pass the class with side projects, etc... So any student who do tries will at least pass, but on the other hand, there are slackers who doesn't want to do the work and spend time playing around (even though they might be smarter than some other passing students); hence, they will fail by their own accord. Evil is part of the test, but it is temporary and it is up to us what choices we make.

[Predator]

desist Grace Seeker from spreading the word of the devil, when Allah's word has been made manifest and clear!

best

And I have made it manifest to him with his own book at http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1454060, but he just wants to