This makes me angry the West is saying they are not at war with Islam/Muslims yet the

[truthseeker63]

This makes me angry the West is saying they are not at war with Islam/Muslims yet they allow Christian Missionaries to go to Afghanistan and to Iraq ?

Missionaries Rushing to Iraq

By Austin Cline, About.com Guide December 28, 2003

Evangelical Christians want desperately to convert Muslims to Christianity. They feel that they have a golden opportunity in Afghanistan and Iraq because of the relative power of Western military forces there and the dire need of so many people for basic necessities like food and medicine - necessities which can be delivered in one hand while the other hand holds out a Bible. These Christian groups are starting to feel the need to rush, however, because they fear that once the Iraqi provision government assumes authority next year, they could be shut out.

Islam-Online reports:

The evangelical missionaries, who believe that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, are championing the future missions along with the International Mission Board (IMB), the missionary arm of the Southern Baptists, the largest Protestant denomination in America. ... In public, the groups put the emphasis on their delivery of food parcels and their medical work. However, their internal fund-raising materials emphasize mission work... "Children starved of attention and I could tell some of them have not eaten well. But their biggest need is to know the love of Christ," said Jim Walker, one of the Baptists. ... Describing Islam as "false" and "antichrist" religion, Hanna, along with other missionaries, went on training courses on how to proselytize Arab Muslims before visiting Iraq.

Now, there is nothing necessarily wrong with trying to convince a member of one religion to consider switching to a different religion. These attempted conversions do not, however, take place in a political, social, historical, or cultural vacuum. There are a lot of considerations here that go well beyond the simple question about whether one is to be a Christian or a Muslim. Arabs in the Middle East have only negative associations when it comes to Christians marching in with an army to convert them. Many are already upset over the presence of American troops, but the presence of American aid workers trying to tempt people to apostasy (punishable by death) will only exacerbate the hostile feelings. The presence of missionaries should be tolerable, but the presence of aggressive proselytization in a culture that does not traditionally permit such a thing and which is still reeling from decades of tyranny and a recent military invasion is a poor idea at best.


http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/12/2...ng-to-iraq.htm

[Trumble]

This makes me angry the West is saying they are not at war with Islam/Muslims yet they allow Christian Missionaries to go to Afghanistan and to Iraq

It is not a case of 'allowing' them or not. Being, thankfully, free countries 'they' have no power to stop anybody who has or is committing no crime under their law from going anywhere they like.

If the Afghan or Iraqi authorities have a problem with such missionaries (and I think your assessment of their activities and methods is probably an accurate one), it's up to them to deny them entry or deport them. They have both the authority and the organization to do so.

[جوري]

This makes me angry the West is saying they are not at war with Islam/Muslims yet they allow Christian Missionaries to go to Afghanistan and to Iraq ?

I was just in the middle east, on my way back I was seated next to a stinking 'G I Joe' who was downing all sorts of anti malaria meds, sent to a region of chaos to do the devils work of course, the region I was in isn't known for malaria endemics, only military personnel are given certain meds when they go to unleash their carnage on an already fragile situation. My dad left a week after me, on his way there a group of Missionaries sent again to spread the word of the devil..
but I'd take consolation in:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,

They'll spend their money and send their scum and it will blow up in their face insha'Allah.. Also the people there are very aware of these tactics..It is however unfortunate to not give people a chance to breathe and handle their internal turmoils and crises!

:w:

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

I have to admit that this is a touchy subject for me. My father is a veteran of the Vietnam War and not a day goes by that I don't thank God that he survived (or I wouldn't be here). I appreciate and respect what he did. Now we both agree that Vietnam was a useless conflict, much as we agree that the current "War on Terror" is a useless conflict as well.

But I wonder if in 30 years or so, some other son of a veteran of this war might be posting in a forum such as this one. I wonder what his father will think just as I wonder what mine will think when I tell him...

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[SFatima]

People are always judged about their actions, according to the level of knowledge they possess about certain things at a certain time ( as Allah swt judges people ) . Off corse your father may have not known like many others at that time, or was unable to judge , or not in a position to question the order of the Authority; The army, or he couldn't just plain refuse to go to war, since thats how soldiers are trained, they are rigorously trained to subject to the command of their authority, they have to follow the orders and they do so. That is how this system runs, you submit to it with all your will power and your efforts, so much, that it in fact makes us forget that we are answerable to the One above for our actions, and this army will not stand up to save us on the day of judgment, neither the govt. or the police.

But at this time, it looks silly if the west denies that they are not at war with islam, the only countries invaded and being bombed are muslim, that is for everyone to see. But of corse the Us army is taught, told and convinced that these countries are terrorist states and need to be fought with, American soldiers are always heard saying that we are taught the position of offense, not defense, so we're pretty good at creating the offense,( got that from interviews of soldiers on the media) and we are not taught how to defend. That clearly shows that their armies are designed to attack, and attacking other countries and yet calling them the offenders is a big funny lie.

It is now that people have started to understand somewhat about what the world was hit within the past century, with all the wars and why or how they started and how wrong it was and for reasons were they started. That is where religious knowledge becomes so important, because that is the only source of knowledge that informs you what kind of authority do we really have to submit , to what extent, and what is the criteria to judge it precisely? All worldly authorities; the govt, the Establishment, the police and the army requires humans to submit to their authority, and that authority is frequently mis-used.( the taxes used in unjust wars, unjust police actions, legislating un-just laws and etc).

It is only the religion islam that differentiates between the thin line separating the good from bad and knowing what is actually wrong and what is not. Worldly authorities are devoid of that moral compulsion, and it is impossible to be morally sound for long, if you do not fear the Authority of One God above you. And it confirms the faith inside you when you see the events of the world unrolling just as predicted in the Hadith, there is no denying, these wars were predicted 1400 years ago.


( So once again, as much as a regard we all have for our parents and family members, it must always be there, but it must not come in the way of our submission to Allah swt, that is the essence of deen, that you love Allah swt and the Prophet saww more than you love yourself and your family. As on the day of judgment, no parent or the person you loved deeply, will be looking for you, all will be in great worry of their own actions, mothers will refuse to recognize their own beloved sons, for the fear of Punishment from Allah swt, as to why they were unable to instill some sense of God into them.)

Only Allah swt knows best.

[SFatima]

And one must strive to achieve that level of love for Allah swt and the prophet saww, as one becomes closer to Allah, this is what muslims must strive to achieve; the approval of Allah swt, and the emulation of the life of the Prophet Muhammad saww, these are the only two things that set you free from all the burdensome worldly authorities.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

If I was all about comfort and doing the easy thing, I would have never taken my shahada. I would have just kept going with my life as it was, and continued to be unhappy and miserable. I'm not saying that everything is all fine and dandy now, because it's not. I'm struggling. Every day, I struggle with coming to terms with my new faith and my new way of life.

I'm not denying that there is a war being waged on Islam and on Muslims. I get that. But I am trying to reconcile my respect for the military with my new way of life, and I'm having a hard time doing that. I'm still trying to come to terms with the fact that everything I've known in my life is wrong. The old order of my life is fading, but much of the new order has yet to be revealed. Right now I feel like I'm looking around at the remains of my old life and thinking "What just happened here?"

[SFatima]

The thing is that in the long run, since you have seen both sides of the story, you will be able to understand everything better and thats a huge plus. : ) Hopefully not, but if there is any discrimination that you come across being a muslim, ignore it ( like this friends of yours commented about you and it didn't make you feel good about yourself, what would be his reaction had you commented on his religion?)

And it is true that things don't become all fine and dandy in a jiffy, that is the thing with peace,

“Peace does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. Peace means to be in the midst of all those things and yet still be calm in your spirit."

Peace to you.

[Pygoscelis]

It is not a case of 'allowing' them or not. Being, thankfully, free countries 'they' have no power to stop anybody who has or is committing no crime under their law from going anywhere they like.

If the Afghan or Iraqi authorities have a problem with such missionaries (and I think your assessment of their activities and methods is probably an accurate one), it's up to them to deny them entry or deport them. They have both the authority and the organization to do so.

^ This.

I abhor missionaries, but I have no legal right to stop them so long as they act in accord with the laws. If they break the laws in the foreign country then its up to that country to enforce those laws.

[Who Am I?]

The thing is that in the long run, since you have seen both sides of the story, you will be able to understand everything better and thats a huge plus. : ) Hopefully not, but if there is any discrimination that you come across being a muslim, ignore it ( like this friends of yours commented about you and it didn't make you feel good about yourself, what would be his reaction had you commented on his religion?)

And it is true that things don't become all fine and dandy in a jiffy, that is the thing with peace,

“Peace does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. Peace means to be in the midst of all those things and yet still be calm in your spirit."

Peace to you.

:sl:

And here you are again. Ever my Voice of Reason, are you, sister. :statisfie

Right, I hope that I can bring a unique perspective to Islam, being a Westerner, and a former Christian at that. As for discrimination, I'll deal with that when the time comes.

I want to eventually get like all of the Prophets were (peace be upon them all). They all faced adversity and discrimination, yet it only strengthened their faith in Allah. I want to do the same. The old me gets frustrated and angry when things don't go my way and I don't want to be like that anymore.

[SFatima]

que Dios los bendiga

gracias : )

(hope i got that right : P)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you truthseeker63;

This makes me angry the West is saying they are not at war with Islam/Muslims yet they allow Christian Missionaries to go to Afghanistan and to Iraq ?

I feel really angry that Britain and America should invade these countries in the first place, killing thousands, and causing huge numbers of refugees.
You seem to feel angrier about people carrying bibles, rather than armies with bombs and guns.
.
Many people on this forum say they have converted from Christianity to Islam, this suggests that Muslims have influenced these people in some way.
.
I pray that we might all share heaven together despite all our differences, we are all created by the same God and the same God hears all our prayers. If only we could compete against each other in doing good deeds, then indeed this world could be a better place.
.
In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you King of Nines;:

I'm not denying that there is a war being waged on Islam and on Muslims. I get that. But I am trying to reconcile my respect for the military with my new way of life, and I'm having a hard time doing that.

The military obey the orders of their government, I believe it is the governments that make the bad decisions.
.
Very rarely does God and religion influence governments to do good deeds, there is just this one story that I know off.
.
William Wilberforce fought for the abolition of slavery for over twenty years in parliament, and every year he was defeated. The fortunes of many politicians at the time depended on slavery.
.
Wilberforce then came up with this..
..
At some point we shall all have to stand before God, how are you going to justify your stance on slavery?
.
This brought Wilberforce a landslide victory.
.
If politicians feared God today we could ask them the same question, at some point we are all going to stand before God, how can you justify your stance on Iraq and Afghanistan?
.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[SFatima]

Greetings and peace be with you truthseeker63;


I feel really angry that Britain and America should invade these countries in the first place, killing thousands, and causing huge numbers of refugees.
You seem to feel angrier about people carrying bibles, rather than armies with bombs and guns.
.
Many people on this forum say they have converted from Christianity to Islam, this suggests that Muslims have influenced these people in some way.
.
I pray that we might all share heaven together despite all our differences, we are all created by the same God and the same God hears all our prayers. If only we could compete against each other in doing good deeds, then indeed this world could be a better place.
.
In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

Greetings to you too Eric,

It isn't that we aren't upset about being waged a war on, it is that we muslims place a high value on our faith and I'm sure you'll agree that in times of despair, which we all come across, the only thing a person has, to hold on strong to, is his religion, his faith. To rob him of that, is a crime worse than killing him.( as i feel about it)

So being waged a war on for about 10 years is indeed awful but death is not what we fear as much as, we fear not having our faith with us when it was the time to die, and to rob some people of that chance by trying to change their faith by giving lucrative incentives that they may not be able to refuse out of extreme poverty; like that of a better life, some scrapes of food or shelter, isn't what we would prefer to live for without any dignity. But of corse only those people who are in extreme despair might choose to take that option, not withstanding the chaos around them, it is a very hard life where people see their own loved ones heads and limbs flying into the air, and it is harder when it seems to go on forever for no apparent reason, faith in God is the only healer of such testing times.

[Who Am I?]

que Dios los bendiga

gracias : )

(hope i got that right : P)

:sl:

Yes, you got it.

Muy ejelente...

If politicians feared God today we could ask them the same question, at some point we are all going to stand before God, how can you justify your stance on Iraq and Afghanistan?

I don't support either war, and neither does my father (a Vietnam veteran). But at the same time, I respect our troops and want everyone to come home safely. That way, nobody else has to die, on either side.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you SFatima;
.
In an ideal world, no one should need charity, we should love our neighbours as we love ourselves, allowing poverty to happen is a sin against God.
In an ideal world aid and charity should be given fairly, justly and unconditionally to all people; regardless of religion, nationality or gender.
Sadly we do not live in an ideal world, and sometimes people have ulterior motives for doing things.
.
In the end we all answer to the same God, who will judge our deeds and our intentions.
Jesus gave us the greatest commandments, and they pose real problems for us Christians, we are to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.
When Jesus gave us the greatest commandments, he gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan, who helped a Jew, who was beaten up. To make matters worse for the Jews in the parable, Jesus says that a Jewish Levite and a priest walked by the wounded Jew and they did not help him.
If this parable was written today, Jesus might say the deacon and the priest walked past the wounded Christian, and the Good Muslim came to the rescue.
Sometimes I guess we get things wrong, and like you, I feel that charity and aid should be given unconditionally. If the missionaries wish to preach after they have given the aid to all people, that is not so bad, it gives the people the freedom to walk away.
I also believe we should not take away anyone's faith.
.
Blessings
Eric

[Ramadhan]

he gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan, who helped a Jew, who was beaten up. To make matters worse for the Jews in the parable, Jesus says that a Jewish Levite and a priest walked by the wounded Jew and they did not help him.

I don't know how the christians right and christians conservatives today interpret that passage to mean: helping zionists to beat up palestinians, to kill the children, and bombed the civilians.

[Who Am I?]

I don't know how the christians right and christians conservatives today interpret that passage to mean: helping zionists to beat up palestinians, to kill the children, and bombed the civilians.

:sl:

If I can be allowed to play Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Not all of them to do, to be sure. I never read that much into that parable when I was a Christian.

But I wasn't your typical Christian either, so maybe that's a bad example.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

A lot of bad stuff is done in the name of religion, but if you Google search- Palestine and Christian peace keepers, you will find a number of links that show Christians risk their lives trying to peacefully protect Palestinians and their children.
.

http://www.cpt.org/work/palestine

in the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Trumble]

He did qualify with 'right' and 'conservative'. It is a dangerous line of argument though. For example a supposedly 'Islamic' government in Sudan was responsible for beatings-up, murders and bombings in the (now independent) South that makes any Israeli actions in Palestine look trivial in comparison. Far too often other issues push supposed religious convictions into the background.

[Ramadhan]

He did qualify with 'right' and 'conservative'. It is a dangerous line of argument though. For example a supposedly 'Islamic' government in Sudan was responsible for beatings-up, murders and bombings in the (now independent) South that makes any Israeli actions in Palestine look trivial in comparison.

Did they do their crimes in the name of Islam or because Allah told them to?

Meanwhile, Christian rights and conservatives truly believe that all israelites must be returned to Israel, regardless of the ways, in order for messiah to arrive, because bible tells them to.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;
.
God scattered the tribes of Israel because they would not follow his commands, there are many passages in the Bible when God turns his anger against Israel.
When the secular nation of Israel return to God, then God will restore Israel, it will be God who puts this right, and not man
.


Here are a few passages from the Bible that talk about how Israelis should treat aliens, or foreigners living in Israel.
.
Ezekiel 47

21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.
Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.
.
I am not sure how conservative Christians can justify attacking Palestinians, when they read these passages.
.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric

[Karl]

These guys are not true Christians, they're zionist crpto-socialists working for the NWO. American policy to win the hearts and minds. Bombs and brainwashing (assimilation programs). They preach new age secular concepts that are not in the Bible but are instead American politically correct dogma.

[Ramadhan]

God scattered the tribes of Israel because they would not follow his commands, there are many passages in the Bible when God turns his anger against Israel. When the secular nation of Israel return to God, then God will restore Israel, it will be God who puts this right, and not man .

It's all nice and I'm sure you are sincere, but the reality is different from your ideals.

Fact: christian right and christian conservatives do support Israel, even though they know very well that Israel is breaking every single of God's commands you mentioned above.

I am not sure how conservative Christians can justify attacking Palestinians, when they read these passages.

Maybe their bible doesn't have those passages?

[User29123]

They are not making Iraqi or Afghans convert they are brainwashing them, giving people money to do horrible things to women and showing it on media as this is what Muslims do then people leave the religion, good thing is people who know about media propaganda will go ahead and pick up and read the Quran.....while others will come out on the street and chant racist remarks....:hmm:

[Who Am I?]

They are not making Iraqi or Afghans convert they are brainwashing them, giving people money to do horrible things to women and showing it on media as this is what Muslims do then people leave the religion, good thing is people who know about media propaganda will go ahead and pick up and read the Quran.....while others will come out on the street and chant racist remarks....:hmm:

:sl:

This is why the schools don't teach kids to think for themselves anymore. They will be easily led and duped by the media and believe whatever the government says is true, and thus be easier to control.

I learned long ago not to trust anything the media says. That is why I took it upon myself to learn about Islam on my own.