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anonymous
07-13-2011, 03:09 AM
:sl:

i hope nobody takes offense, tries to belittle me, or dismisses my concerns here since i really am feeling troubled by all this. basically I've lately been coming across hadith that sound very strange. some disturbing, others just don't seem to make sense or they seem to clash with islam as a whole.

just recently i came across a hadith that, while not disturbing, caused me to have some doubt. it's the one that i believe is in bukhari, about the prophet adam being 90 feet tall. based on what i know, that size for a human being isn't supported by any evidence, and i don't think it's physically possible for a human to exist at that size. i heard another hadith that was about the prophet pbuh ordering people to kill lizards or geckos, saying there was a reward for doing so... why is this? doesn't this go against the general islamic rules about being kind to animals? these are just two examples of the most recent hadiths that i've found... but as i'm sure most of you know, we come across new hadiths every day, and i know i've come across others that i didn't understand... some even more confusing than these, and others that seemed disturbing or full of old superstitions.

its things like this that shake a persons faith, especially because they come from bukhari and muslim.. and those are supposed to be authentic right? if these are authentic, and our prophet pbuh was supposed to have actually uttered him... well, this is troubling... is there any advice for what to do when you come across things like this? any advice on how can i understand these things to be true? is there somewhere i can go to get trustworthy information about strange or troubling hadith? thanks in advance
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anonymous
07-14-2011, 06:16 AM
I've been thinking quite a bit about the hadith that mentions Adam being 60cubits/90feet tall... and i think i've come to some sort of conclusion... after reading through a number of hadiths that mention this, i feel like they could possibly be talking about adam when he was created originally. what i mean by that is his original creation in heaven/paradise. is it plausible to conclude that his stature was changed after he ate the fruit and was sent to earth? the hadith are not clear about this, and also... even the arabs would have seen/known that a 90 foot tall man couldn't really do much on earth... i mean... what would he do with the tiny trees? nothing would be to scale... also, the hadiths mention that we will assume this stature when we enter paradise, so therefore it must be talking about his form when he wasn't on earth, right? is this a possible interpretation?

(sorry for obsessing so much, but i worry a lot about this stuff...)
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anonymous
07-15-2011, 10:20 PM
anyone? this is really bothering me......
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Alpha Dude
07-15-2011, 10:50 PM
Wa alaykum salam

The hadith about geckos is because one helped fan the flames that Ibrahim Alaihe Salam was put in to. If Allah has placed a reward for killing geckos, then it's not a unique thing because we are rewarded for slaughtering animals on Eid ul Adha too. The fact of the matter is, it's not that we've been given a free for all pass to kill all animals as and when we please and nor is that we need to be inhumane about the manner in which the killing is carried out. Nor is it a matter of it being a compulsory thing. If we don't wish to, we don't have to. If we do so with the intention of reward, then inshaAllah that will be the case.

With regards to the height issue, this is something I don't think we can categorically assume false at all. The way I see it, if giant animals were around millions of years ago, then there is somewhat of a possibility that giant humans were around too. Possibly they had a different anatomical makeup than we humans do now, which allowed them to exist in their giant stature. We don't and can't know the specifics of how and in what form they existed. Nor do we need to know, in order to believe it - there is no scientifically agreed upon 'proof' for the existence of God in the first place.

We have belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam, so we believe in his words. If you feel something contrary to his sayings is more true, then you have to remind yourself of what it was that made you believe in his Prophethood and message to begin with.

Also, recall the behaviour of Abu Bakr RA when confronted by the others on the account of the incident of miraj. He didn't doubt one bit, even though to the people of the time, the story seemed outrageous. There must have been a deeper reason for his conviction in the truth of Prophet Muhammad Sallahu Alaihe Wasalam.

See this, too.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-15-2011, 11:22 PM
As'Salaamu Alaaykum

I agree with brother Alpha Dude..
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-15-2011, 11:22 PM
As-Salaamu Alaaykum

I think maybe someone who is knowledeable can explain further..

But I will try my best

I believe the hadeeth you read was this right?

(Saheeh Bukhaari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543]

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, “Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring.” So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, “As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi” (i.e. Peace and Allah’s Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam’s salutation the expression, ‘Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,’ Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation.[1]

As far as I am aware if you read starting from 'Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation'

heres the next hadeeth narrated after this

[Sahih Bukhaari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544]
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."

'of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in stature), sixty cubits tall' it mentions in the hadeeth that everyone who will enter paradise, this is what will happen. As for the dunya or jannah, it clearly states in hadeeth number 543 that people have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation., it doesnt state jannah or dunya..someone more knowledgeable can explain this..

But I will let someone else reply to your post, more knowledgeable..

I came across a video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLnC7tYcXQ
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
With regards to the height issue, this is something I don't think we can categorically assume false at all. The way I see it, if giant animals were around millions of years ago, then there is somewhat of a possibility that giant humans were around too. Possibly they had a different anatomical makeup than we humans do now, which allowed them to exist in their giant stature. We don't and can't know the specifics of how and in what form they existed. Nor do we need to know, in order to believe it - there is no scientifically agreed upon 'proof' for the existence of God in the first place.
it's a bit hard to swallow... and based on what we do know, i think it would be physically impossible on our planet for a 90 foot tall man to exist... its true that giant animals were around, but tbh, i can't think of any land animal (living or extinct) that was near 90 feet.. thats just too big. i hope you can understand why this is so troubling for me. its difficult to just dismiss my own intellect and reason... i feel like that might start to border blind faith in something that i feel isn't true, and that scares me. a 90 foot tall man just isn't something possible from what i understand.. and just looking around on the internet didn't help at all, since most muslims out there dont' really know how to address this point either, and non muslims use it to laugh at us...

btw, was the alternate interpretation i mentioned earlier a valid one?


format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
As-Salaamu Alaaykum

I think maybe someone who is knowledeable can explain further..

But I will try my best

I believe the hadeeth you read was this right?

(Saheeh Bukhaari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543]

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, “Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring.” So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, “As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi” (i.e. Peace and Allah’s Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam’s salutation the expression, ‘Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,’ Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation.[1]

As far as I am aware if you read starting from 'Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam’s creation'

heres the next hadeeth narrated after this

[Sahih Bukhaari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544]
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."

'of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in stature), sixty cubits tall' it mentions in the hadeeth that everyone who will enter paradise, this is what will happen. As for the dunya or jannah, it clearly states in hadeeth number 543 that people have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation., it doesnt state jannah or dunya..someone more knowledgeable can explain this..

But I will let someone else reply to your post, more knowledgeable..

I came across a video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLnC7tYcXQ
Yes, those were the hadiths i read. i actually read about 6 of them, all from bukhari and muslim... i also noticed something peculiar.. they were all narrated by abu huraira (from what i read anyway)... is it possible he made a mistake in reporting what he heard?
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 08:40 AM
^ please try to understand where i'm coming from... just telling me to not think about it and move on isn't going to work...
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Asiyah3
07-16-2011, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
it's a bit hard to swallow... and based on what we do know, i think it would be physically impossible on our planet for a 90 foot tall man to exist... its true that giant animals were around, but tbh, i can't think of any land animal (living or extinct) that was near 90 feet.. thats just too big. i hope you can understand why this is so troubling for me. its difficult to just dismiss my own intellect and reason... i feel like that might start to border blind faith in something that i feel isn't true, and that scares me. a 90 foot tall man just isn't something possible from what i understand..
Why is it a bit hard to swallow? If you would've told people of the past the Earth is round or any other amazing scientific things we know about today (which may seem self-obvious to you) which they weren't aware of, they would've laughed at you too.

Even so, as Alpha Dude said

format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Nor do we need to know, in order to believe it


format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
and just looking around on the internet didn't help at all, since most muslims out there dont' really know how to address this point either, and non muslims use it to laugh at us...
Don't worry about non-Muslims. We'll see who laughs at who in the Hereafter. Only pleasing Allah swt matters, we need not please others.

Yes, those were the hadiths i read. i actually read about 6 of them, all from bukhari and muslim... i also noticed something peculiar.. they were all narrated by abu huraira (from what i read anyway)... is it possible he made a mistake in reporting what he heard?
No. That is not possible at all.

Protect your faith, which is the biggest blessing from Allah and never let Satan mislead you.
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 09:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
Why is it a bit hard to swallow? If you would've told people of the past the Earth is round or any other amazing scientific things we know about today (which may seem self-obvious to you) which they weren't aware of, they would've laughed at you too.
The reason this is hard to swallow is because (like i said) a 90 foot tall man would be (from what i understand) physically impossible... not to mention nonsensical if we assume the earths vegetation/creatures were still normal sized...

format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
No. That is not possible at all.
okay... but can i ask why not? it's not particularly helpful when you just say "no. that's not possible at all" without giving any sort of explanation..
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 09:34 AM
^again, i'm sorry if it sounds like i'm being pushy with this... i just tend to obsess about small things, and i can't seem to get over this.
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Asiyah3
07-16-2011, 09:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
The reason this is hard to swallow is because (like i said) a 90 foot tall man would be (from what i understand) physically impossible... not to mention nonsensical if we assume the earths vegetation/creatures were still normal sized...
DID YOU LIVE MANY MILLION YEARS AGO? Were you present at the time? We don't know how things were.

okay... but can i ask why not? it's not particularly helpful when you just say "no. that's not possible at all" without giving any sort of explanation..
You're right. I should've put an explanation. Sorry about that. Because, by common sense a Hadith cannot be a mistake of one of the best and most trustworthy companion of the Prophet (SAAS) who was very well-known for his memory simply because it doesn't fit your limited knowledge, moreover your speaking out of knowledge.
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Alpha Dude
07-16-2011, 09:56 AM
not to mention nonsensical if we assume the earths vegetation/creatures were still normal sized...
But the creatures weren't normal sized at all. They were mammoth and how do we know that the vegetation was the same size as it is now?

The way I see it, there could have been big fruits, big animals and big people.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
it's a bit hard to swallow... and based on what we do know, i think it would be physically impossible on our planet for a 90 foot tall man to exist... its true that giant animals were around, but tbh, i can't think of any land animal (living or extinct) that was near 90 feet.. thats just too big. i hope you can understand why this is so troubling for me. its difficult to just dismiss my own intellect and reason... i feel like that might start to border blind faith in something that i feel isn't true, and that scares me. a 90 foot tall man just isn't something possible from what i understand.. and just looking around on the internet didn't help at all, since most muslims out there dont' really know how to address this point either, and non muslims use it to laugh at us...

btw, was the alternate interpretation i mentioned earlier a valid one?




Yes, those were the hadiths i read. i actually read about 6 of them, all from bukhari and muslim... i also noticed something peculiar.. they were all narrated by abu huraira (from what i read anyway)... is it possible he made a mistake in reporting what he heard?
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
^ please try to understand where i'm coming from... just telling me to not think about it and move on isn't going to work...
As-Salaamu Alaaykum

Well as far as reading all posts on this thread, I havent seen where anyone has adviced you to move on or not to think about it.

It was advised that you understand that Allaah Allmighty is able to do all things.

Is it not hard to swallow that there are angels that exist? Hell and Heaven exists? though we have not seen them?

To prove an angel exists, intellect nor reason is required. We are told that they are made of light in the noble Qur'aan, we are told in hadeeth that an angel does not enter a home where there is either an image or dog, so that the blessings do not enter the house, so as muslims we refrain from putting images or keeping a dog within the house.

There are many muslims who cant explain everything because not everyone is the 'All aware' , 'All knower'..we as muslims are encouraged to teach as much as we know which is according to the Qur'aan and sunnah not something we do not know..and non-muslims will laugh ofcourse no doubt, know that even the Shaytaan laughs also.. And just because non-muslims use something against muslims to mock us, doesnt make it right. They even laughed when Rasool Allaah Salllaahu 'Alaayhi Wa Salaam told them he was a prophet of Allaah, despite knowing he spoke the truth, he was known as 'The Truthful one' amongst them.

Im no scholar, but I do know that Allaah is able to do all things that fit his majesty.


Allaah SWT mentions in his noble book :

"We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?" (The Noble Quran, 41:53)

If you read verses 30-31 of Surah An-Naazi'aat-Those who pull out

"And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse)" (verse 30) If we read this verse in arabic : "Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha" The word 'Dahaha' translates Expanded.

"He draweth out therefrom its moisture and its pasture" (31)

I think this site will be of use : http://www.answering-christianity.co..._feet_tall.htm..

Also this and various other sites on the site : http://www.answering-christianity.co..._in_verses.htm

Insha'Allaah it will become helpful..
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Asiyah3
07-16-2011, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
^again, i'm sorry if it sounds like i'm being pushy with this... i just tend to obsess about small things, and i can't seem to get over this.
A Muslim has million reasons to believe in Islam. One simple Hadith especially regarding this topic, about a time which we know none about, has none significance to his faith.
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Kabeer
07-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Salaam,
Well the OP has come here with what is a legitimate question. He hears something that sounds unbelievable, and he is asking, how is this possible.
All the replies he is getting are saying that just believe, if we are told it, then it is true.
Ofc if you have accepted Islam, and believe in Allah and His Prophet, then we should all start with the Premise, that we Accept totally the Word of Allah our Holy Quran, and the Sunnah religious practice of our Prophet. But one should be clear to differentiate between what is a primary and secondary source of Islam, the ahadith are secondary.

So if this truly was told by Allah & His prophet, then that is fair enough. But has anyone here actually gone to the effort of properly studying the hadith in question?
Maybe its true, or maybe there are faults there.
Why is nobody questioning the literal word in these Ahadith?

What if somebody went and killed every gekko and made them extinct. Then when you face Allah on Judgement Day, He asks you why did you murder his creatures? (if the hadith was faulty). And your only excuse was you blindly followed a tertiary source of Islam. Ofc if its true then youll be fine.

On the other hand, I can see how people like Asiyah3 and Alpha Dude take the stance of just accept it all and agree with it even if its seemingly illogical. In a way this is the easier route, and if the stories are right, then you have got a slicker route to faith.

There seems to be a conflict of feelings here. One is that some of you are feeling that qeustioning the literal validity of the hadith matn is the same as Questioning Islam or the Prophet. Maybe you should think of it rather of questioning the Hadith, which is neither the Quran or Prophet, or Sunnah, but a historical document, and the chains and context surrounding it.

So OP, the most satisfactory answer to you should be that you investigate the hadith in more depth. maybe not an easy thing. Therefore you would have to discuss specific hadith in question with scholars of the matn and isnad about those particular hadith. And then you can make a more informed view on it.

Peace
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
I think this site will be of use : http://www.answering-christianity.co..._feet_tall.htm..
That site isn't trustworthy. i'm familiar with the site, and the article... after doing some research, it became very obvious that the study they cite is just a hoax.


format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
It seems like there may be a problem within you, not with the Hadith at all.
I believe my questions are legitimate. so far people have basically just told me to "believe". That doesn't help anything. Please refrain from posting here again if you're just going to say things like this, and not actually address my concerns about the hadith..
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 11:23 AM
Apologies, i made a mistake. that article doesn't cite a false study (i was thinking of another article from the same cite..). however the idea they speak of, that the earth has been expanding/volume increasing... i did some quick research and found that this notion is rejected by those who study the field... so i don't know if that can be used as an explanation...
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 11:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
That site isn't trustworthy. i'm familiar with the site, and the article... after doing some research, it became very obvious that the study they cite is just a hoax.
What is your evidence the study they cite is a hoax?
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
Apologies, i made a mistake. that article doesn't cite a false study (i was thinking of another article from the same cite..). however the idea they speak of, that the earth has been expanding/volume increasing... i did some quick research and found that this notion is rejected by those who study the field... so i don't know if that can be used as an explanation...
What does it mean when you say 'You dont know if that can be used as an explanation'?

You dont know, but what about those who have studied it?
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
You dont know, but what about those who have studied it?
thats exactly the point i was making.. those who have studied it seem to reject that idea... i've been googling around for a few days now trying to figure this out, and thats what it seems like with the majority anyway... i'm no expert though, so please, look into it yourself...
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 11:32 AM
can someone at least let me know if the alternate interpretation i mentioned earlier is valid? i saw that it was being used on some other islamic forums, so i'm curious... if that interpretation can be valid, then there is no issue.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 12:05 PM
As'Salaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
thats exactly the point i was making.. those who have studied it seem to reject that idea... i've been googling around for a few days now trying to figure this out, and thats what it seems like with the majority anyway... i'm no expert though, so please, look into it yourself...
Those who studied it, from my knowledge havent rejected that the earth has expanded. I suggest you go study it yourself.. And the Qur'aan mentions the expansion. If there are those who rejected it, then know that the Qur'aan does not.


If I misunderstood what you said, please dont hesitate to explain/correct me.

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
can someone at least let me know if the alternate interpretation i mentioned earlier is valid? i saw that it was being used on some other islamic forums, so i'm curious... if that interpretation can be valid, then there is no issue.
If the Hadeeth was invalid it wouldnt have been in the book that is classified as authentic i.e. Saheeh al Bukhaari and Muslim..

Whether alternate interpratation you used was valid or not, but Allaah knows best.

It makes sense according to the study I posted from the site and in Jannah Allaah knows best.

I agree that one must not believe blindly but study there is no doubt in that, studying the source.

Study the authenticity of hadeeth insha'Allaah as adviced, the chains of narration etc, and yes it will be time consuming but good time consuming.

I apologise if I have sounded harsh and correct me if I am incorrect.

@Brother Kabeer: I do not think that brother Alpha Dude and sister Asiyah said anything about believing something without source, or just to believe something we are told and then it is truth.And is not faith to believe with full conviction it is the truth? even where there is no evidence? I mean there are events we have recently discovered, which people back then didnt know about but they still believed. For example: The hadeeth about sleeping on stomach is hated by Allaah, the people didnt know the reasons to why Allaah hated it but they accepted it. The reasons were discovered a few years back. I have to say they did have a point to what they said. They explained in regards to what they knew. but maybe there is more to it...
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 12:51 PM
As'Salaamu Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
The reason this is hard to swallow is because (like i said) a 90 foot tall man would be (from what i understand) physically impossible... not to mention nonsensical if we assume the earths vegetation/creatures were still normal sized..
I agree though, how can you say it is Physically impossible? Did you live back then? What if we assume that due to the study i posted, the vegatation and creatures were also big?


Allaah does clearly mention that he is knower of things we know not. Really we cant assume anything if we know that Allaah knows everything, has power to do anything that fits his majesty , especially when a hadeeth is quoted by a companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).. too much assuming can also lead to doubt, especially when there is a reference speaking about an issue.
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Kabeer
07-16-2011, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм

@Brother Kabeer: I do not think that brother Alpha Dude and sister Asiyah said anything about believing something without source, or just to believe something we are told and then it is truth.And is not faith to believe with full conviction it is the truth? even where there is no evidence? I mean there are events we have recently discovered, which people back then didnt know about but they still believed. For example: The hadeeth about sleeping on stomach is hated by Allaah, the people didnt know the reasons to why Allaah hated it but they accepted it. The reasons were discovered a few years back. I have to say they did have a point to what they said. They explained in regards to what they knew. but maybe there is more to it...
Wasalaam,
Well I didnt say they had no source. They had a source. My point was that one must be careful of a non perfect source. Even being in Bukhari or Muslim doesnt mean a hadith is meant for us to take at face value.

Out of interest, have any of you seen what is claimed to be Adam's footprint in Sri Lanka? It is claimed by some (im not sure of the origins) that this is adams footprint. Other's claim it is the Buddaa's.


Peace.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-16-2011, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Wasalaam,
Well I didnt say they had no source. They had a source. My point was that one must be careful of a non perfect source. Even being in Bukhari or Muslim doesnt mean a hadith is meant for us to take at face value.

Out of interest, have any of you seen what is claimed to be Adam's footprint in Sri Lanka? It is claimed by some (im not sure of the origins) that this is adams footprint. Other's claim it is the Buddaa's.


Peace.

My apologies i meant to say to believe something one is told, blindly is wrong, which wasnt mentioned by the bro and sis in any way..

I have not seen, so Allaah knows best, it seems that is located in Thailand..maybe i am wrong.
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Kabeer
07-16-2011, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
I have not seen, so Allaah knows best, it seems that is located in Thailand..maybe i am wrong.
It is in Sri Lanka, I wrote so in my post :)
that is the actual photo of it too.

Peace
Reply

abdussattar
07-16-2011, 02:06 PM
:sl:


Sahih International
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


:wa:
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Kabeer
07-16-2011, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdussattar
:sl:
Sahih International
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


:wa:
Salaam,
What is the exact reason/point you are making with the emboldened text?
That verse is referring to the Quran, Holy divine words sent from Allah.

Peace
Reply

جوري
07-16-2011, 02:32 PM
http://www.squidoo.com/the-largest-a...lived-on-earth

miniaturization is a well accepted fact (see above link). Be that as it may, we don't know if Adam was said size in heaven or on Earth, certainly his creation in heaven as will our creation in heaven is different than what it is today (as also stated in the ahadith that have cast doubt in your heart). God creates what he wills!
There were already in existence > 90 ft. bipedal creatures .. must everything be fossilized for your examining eyes for you to believe? and the belief here isn't of a basic tenet of religion but some ancillary detail? I am trying not to belittle your concerns here but you make it so easy!
Do you have a point with all of this? Do you desire not to become Muslim because of the size of Adam? then so be it apostate because the size of Adam wasn't to your liking!

best,
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abdussattar
07-16-2011, 02:33 PM
I mean this doesn't need to be discussed. On the day of resurrection, Allah will not question that "how tall was Adam" or "is it possible for a man to be 60 cubits tall" or such. There is no point in discussing such matters. Allah knows best. Does is matter today that you know whether Adam (A.S) was 60 cubits tall or not? why take this matter and weaken your faith?
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Alpha Dude
07-16-2011, 02:42 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
But one should be clear to differentiate between what is a primary and secondary source of Islam, the ahadith are secondary.
They are secondary to the Quran but also considered compulsory to follow and act upon. Our deen is based on the Quran and the Sunnah (as we are told to do so in the Quran itself).

So if this truly was told by Allah & His prophet, then that is fair enough. But has anyone here actually gone to the effort of properly studying the hadith in question?
Maybe its true, or maybe there are faults there.
Why is nobody questioning the literal word in these Ahadith?
These ahadith are reported in reliable collections hence people are less inclined to question their veracity. However, your mode of reasoning implies we must question any and every ahadith, even those which we don't have a problem believing. How else would one be consistent?

Furthermore, what if the OP were to sit with many scholars and they were able to prove without doubt that the hadith are true (like most here are already under the assumption due to the source), then what do you suggest the OP to do?

What if somebody went and killed every gekko and made them extinct. Then when you face Allah on Judgement Day, He asks you why did you murder his creatures? (if the hadith was faulty). And your only excuse was you blindly followed a tertiary source of Islam. Ofc if its true then youll be fine.
'Blindly following' is misleading choice of words as it implies we shut off all faculties of thought and accept all that is told, regardless of who is telling us.

This is wrong because the ahadith collections where the above mentioned have been held as a source for matters of deen for over a thousand years by scholars who have spent years of their life studying enough to know what is and isn't reliable.

Accepting the authority of those who know when we know not is not equal to blind following. Rather, that's intelligently defaulting to the knowledge and understanding of those who have taken the time to learn. Even in the Quran we are told to ask those who know.

Nay. Blind following would be if someone were to take the word of any tom, dick and harry ignoramus off the street on a matter of deen without knowing who that person is and whether or not he knows enough to be worthy of accepted. That's clearly not what we're doing.

On the other hand, I can see how people like Asiyah3 and Alpha Dude take the stance of just accept it all and agree with it even if its seemingly illogical.
Like I said, your approach opens the door to inconsistency. Don't accept this issue, fine, but then be consistent and completely scrutinise every single hadith, personally.

Why should we wash arms hands thrice in wudhu and not 4 times? Maybe the hadith was wrong? What if Allah questions us on the day of judgement for 'blindly following' on this matter? See what I mean, you have to put everything under the microscope if you wish to cast doubt on the validity of the above mentioned ones simply cos you don't like the sound of them.

Such a mindset would open the door to rejecting ahadith altogether as 'you can't be sure which is true and which isn't'.
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Muslim Woman
07-16-2011, 03:40 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
i think it would be physically impossible on our planet for a 90 foot tall man to exist... its true that giant animals were around
hmm so u think it's ture that giant animals were around ? Then why it's so impossible for Adam pbuh to be 90 foot tall ? Also , why it's so important to know about his height ? It's has nothing to do with our hereafter . On the final day , we won't be asked how tall were the Prophets pbut but instead if we followed the way they showed.

So , pl. don't let Shaytan to trick u with unnecessary questions.
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Kabeer
07-16-2011, 04:18 PM
Gosh there are some heated stuff going on in this thread, c'mon everyone, no one means ill here :).

Salaam Alpha Dude,
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
:sl:
They are secondary to the Quran but also considered compulsory to follow and act upon. Our deen is based on the Quran and the Sunnah (as we are told to do so in the Quran itself).
This issue is not really about anything to follow or act on. This hadith in question is not really imparting anything to do with the Sunnah. Like some others said here, how tall Adam was is possibly irrelevant. What matters more is if something is correct or not.
And yes, Quran and Sunnah are our religion. The main point is the blurring of the lines between hadith and Sunnah. Even here you just did it. We are talking about a hadith that has nothing to do with religious practice or core belief yet you are reffering to the Sunnah.

And yes it is compulsory for us to listen to the Prophet if he tells us we must do something. But again, in hadith, there are many things to be considered, for example there may have been something the Prophet did for a very specific situation, and we are related it without very much context. etc and so forth.


format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
These ahadith are reported in reliable collections hence people are less inclined to question their veracity. However, your mode of reasoning implies we must question any and every ahadith, even those which we don't have a problem believing. How else would one be consistent?

Furthermore, what if the OP were to sit with many scholars and they were able to prove without doubt that the hadith are true (like most here are already under the assumption due to the source), then what do you suggest the OP to do?

'Blindly following' is misleading choice of words as it implies we shut off all faculties of thought and accept all that is told, regardless of who is telling us.

This is wrong because the ahadith collections where the above mentioned have been held as a source for matters of deen for over a thousand years by scholars who have spent years of their life studying enough to know what is and isn't reliable.

Accepting the authority of those who know when we know not is not equal to blind following. Rather, that's intelligently defaulting to the knowledge and understanding of those who have taken the time to learn. Even in the Quran we are told to ask those who know.

Nay. Blind following would be if someone were to take the word of any tom, dick and harry ignoramus off the street on a matter of deen without knowing who that person is and whether or not he knows enough to be worthy of accepted. That's clearly not what we're doing.

Like I said, your approach opens the door to inconsistency. Don't accept this issue, fine, but then be consistent and completely scrutinise every single hadith, personally.

Why should we wash arms hands thrice in wudhu and not 4 times? Maybe the hadith was wrong? What if Allah questions us on the day of judgement for 'blindly following' on this matter? See what I mean, you have to put everything under the microscope if you wish to cast doubt on the validity of the above mentioned ones simply cos you don't like the sound of them.

Such a mindset would open the door to rejecting ahadith altogether as 'you can't be sure which is true and which isn't'.
What should the OP do? As I already wrote in my post, then he should make a more informed decision based upon this.

Yes I agree maybe blindly following is not the ideal words for me to have used. And yes the collections by Bukhari et are v.useful to us, and highly regarded. But it doesnt change facts.
As for the consistency point. If you want to take it in such a black and white way (accept them all as 100% true, or reject them all completely) then both attitudes are extreme.
The undeniable fact is that there are examples of sahih hadith with (at least on the face) questionable matn content, or sometimes other issues. In these cases, taking them at literal face value can be a dangerous thing. I dont know about this particular hadith of Adam in question, but this is why only a hadith scholar or someone who has studied it in depth is qualified to answer.
Hadith is NOT Sunnah, and we should be careful not to assume the Sahih collections are there for us laypeople to read ourselves without knowing much more just like that.
But of course we are lucky to have the sahih texts.

Usually the issues in question are supererogatory, rather its just the principle behind it that Islam stay pure.

Peace
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Asiyah3
07-16-2011, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
I believe my questions are legitimate. so far people have basically just told me to "believe". That doesn't help anything. Please refrain from posting here again if you're just going to say things like this, and not actually address my concerns about the hadith..
:sl:

Look at the whole post in context. I didn't say there may be a problem with you, because you ask questions. I meant, if you look at the sentence following it, there may be a problem if you let that question shake your faith.

Nobody's here said you shouldn't ask questions. But you should not let those questions shake your faith.

:w:
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anonymous
07-16-2011, 04:54 PM
a new anonymous here lol

sis id just like to say, it does kind of sound like some people are on the attack here, but dont pay any attention to it inshAllah, Allah ta'ala knows your intentions.

um i want to try and phase what others have said in a new wording, looking at any other religion/way of life you will find that they are simply a set of man made dogmas and rituals. nobody even claims to have proof for their religion. yet we all have our own solid foundations for belief in Islam, these tests you are going through will only strengthen your faith to the point where you have no more room for doubt.

sorry i have not mentioned anything about the hadith specifically.
perhaps this link will be useful to you.
http://www.answering-christianity.co..._feet_tall.htm

as for being 'physically impossible' to reach that size. if you have some source stating this i would like to see it. but more than likely it will argue that based on human bone compressive strength, biological makeup etc it will be impossible, which is true. but remember that Allah's design is perfect, Allah swt could easily alter the entire genetic makeup of Adam AS to accomodate his height and he would know how this works better than anyone.

dont start rejecting hadith, take some time, and strengthen your basis of faith. The sahaba use to accept anything the prophet told them because they were convinced of islam and look where the ummah rose to. It was only Allah that granted it to us and he took it away when we messed with the religion.
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Dagless
07-16-2011, 05:48 PM
1) I don't see why it would be impossible to be that big. As has been mentioned before; there are creatures from the not so distant past who were almost that size.
2) There are at least 3 different anons on this thread... isn't that abusing the anon account a bit?
3) Whether you take it to mean Adam (pbuh) was that size in heaven, or on earth; it shouldn't really affect your faith because it can't be proven either way and has no bearing on your life as a Muslim.

If someone tells you 100 things and it turns out you can prove 99 of them but 1 cannot be proved or disproved; wouldn't you give them the benefit of the doubt? Especially if that thing was of no consequence?
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Alpha Dude
07-16-2011, 06:52 PM
If someone tells you 100 things and it turns out you can prove 99 of them but 1 cannot be proved or disproved; wouldn't you give them the benefit of the doubt? Especially if that thing was of no consequence?
This............
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GuestFellow
07-16-2011, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
It seems like there may be a problem within you, not with the Hadith at all.
Salaam,

I read some of your posts and their appear to be confrontational. Someone is asking for some clarification. Instead of attacking them personally, you need to address the particular question that they are asking.

Anyway, some Muslims have doubts and these need to be resolved in a calm atmosphere. At the moment, the current discussion may ignite WW3....lol.
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Muhammad
07-16-2011, 11:57 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum,

For people other than the OP, please avoid using the anonymous account as it leads to confusion. Jazakallaahu khayran.
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Muslim Woman
07-17-2011, 12:45 AM
Walaykum as Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Assalaamu Alaykum,

For people other than the OP, please avoid using the anonymous account as it leads to confusion. Jazakallaahu khayran.
time to start anonymous 1, 2 , 3 , 4 options ?
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Asiyah3
07-17-2011, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

I read some of your posts and their appear to be confrontational. Someone is asking for some clarification. Instead of attacking them personally, you need to address the particular question that they are asking.
Fine. I apologize. I didn't intend to attack or anything. My intention was only to help. I will edit that post.

If anyone finds any other posts of mine rude or confrontational etc. please let me know. We learn from our mistakes, insha'Allah.
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Snowflake
07-17-2011, 05:56 PM
:sl: Sis/Bro

I can understand how not understanding something shakes your belief. But you need to understand that much of our doubts come from not having sufficient knowledge about something. I used to question lots of things before Allah subhana wa ta' ala bestowed His favours on me and strengthened my imaan. Even to this day there are things I don't understand, and may never do. But they, in no way affect my belief in Islam. Especially as I now realize that everything I didn't understand before and questioned was due to my own lack of knowledge.


Have you read the passage from the Noble Quran where Shaytaan promises to mislead mankind to the Hell-Fire? If not I urge you to read the Quran with meaning insha Allah. The shaytaan is clever at making us doubt Allah and His deen. I sincerely advise that you read the Quran with transation insha Allah. The Quran by Allah's permission will give you whatever you hope to achieve by it. Read it for knowledge and you will gain that. Read it for shifa and it will become a source of shifa. Read it for reward and it will be as such insha Allah. We can read all the Islamic books, articles and hadiths in the world. But, until we read and understand the Quran, we will never taste the full sweetness of imaan. So please, make that your number one priority insha Allah.


And when you are confused about a matter, ask Allah to enlighten you. Because we can't see or hear Allah, we forget that He is the All-Aware and He sees, hears and knows everything we do, say or think. He is forever aware of our needs, so whenever you need anything, ask Him and He will respond in the way he knows to be best for you.

I also urge you to google the sciences of hadith. It will help you understand how hadith come to be classified as authentic. It was a long gruelling process, and not just something done on a whim.


Lastly, there is no reason whatsoever why Adam (as) could not have been 60 cubits talls. We see 'evidences' of all sorts of possiblities around us all the time. These are tell-tale signs that Allah can do whatever He wills. For instance compare the tallest man in the world with the smallest one. With Allah there is nothing that is impossible.



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anonymous
07-17-2011, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AmaturRahman
Lastly, there is no reason whatsoever why Adam (as) could not have been 60 cubits talls. We see 'evidences' of all sorts of possiblities around us all the time. These are tell-tale signs that Allah can do whatever He wills. For instance compare the tallest man in the world with the smallest one. With Allah there is nothing that is impossible.
I don't think people are understanding what i mean when i say it would be impossible... i mean PHYSICALLY it wouldn't be possible. if he was still human, and still had our basic shape and structure, 90 feet tall would literally not be able to exist. others have mentioned that he could have been in a different form, or maybe he had different DNA... if thats the case though, i don't think we could still call him a man, right? he would then be a different creation from what i can tell. also, some have mentioned that giant animals have existed in the past... but i've yet to find any animal that was close to being 90 feet tall. thats just too big. the closest i've found was some kind of dinosaur that was about 100 feet LONG, but still not 90 feet tall... so i don't think one can use the size of other things in creation as evidence...

Also, i'm not in any way trying to doubt a hadiths authenticity... my only point is that based on my (albeit limited) research, this hadith, if taken literally, should not be true because of its physical impossibility. i've searched online, and it seems like the only people who argue for it being possible are the muslims who want to believe it. it is utterly rejected by those who study or have knowledge of the earths history, or physics... if someone can show me how this would actually be possible (with actual, trustworthy information and sources) then i would be very glad to see it... but i've been looking around for quite a while now, and it seems like there isn't any reason to think this aside from blind faith. this is basically my problem.

also, for those asking why i'm worried about something so minor... well, if in fact this hadith is authentic (which it seems to be), but there's reason to think it's false... then i consider that a big problem, and its what i'm here to try and solve.

however, some have also mentioned that the hadith IS in fact ambiguous, and that we don't know if adam was 90 feet tall on earth, or just in heaven when he was first created. like i said, if this interpretation is valid, then i can start to make sense of it all... again, i apologize for the question, since it seems to have created a bit of controversy.. but then again, i guess this is what the anonymous account is for.
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anonymous
07-17-2011, 06:12 PM
^btw, this is the OP again.
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Snowflake
07-17-2011, 08:25 PM
:sl:

A 90ft man wouldn't be a man, he'd be another creation? Are people born with disabilites another creation? Are conjoined twins not human? I don't think anything anyone says is going to be of benefit, so I'm going to leave this matter with Allah as we can only advise. It is Allah who guides.
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Hamza Asadullah
07-18-2011, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
:sl:

i hope nobody takes offense, tries to belittle me, or dismisses my concerns here since i really am feeling troubled by all this. basically I've lately been coming across hadith that sound very strange. some disturbing, others just don't seem to make sense or they seem to clash with islam as a whole.

just recently i came across a hadith that, while not disturbing, caused me to have some doubt. it's the one that i believe is in bukhari, about the prophet adam being 90 feet tall. based on what i know, that size for a human being isn't supported by any evidence, and i don't think it's physically possible for a human to exist at that size. i heard another hadith that was about the prophet pbuh ordering people to kill lizards or geckos, saying there was a reward for doing so... why is this? doesn't this go against the general islamic rules about being kind to animals? these are just two examples of the most recent hadiths that i've found... but as i'm sure most of you know, we come across new hadiths every day, and i know i've come across others that i didn't understand... some even more confusing than these, and others that seemed disturbing or full of old superstitions.

its things like this that shake a persons faith, especially because they come from bukhari and muslim.. and those are supposed to be authentic right? if these are authentic, and our prophet pbuh was supposed to have actually uttered him... well, this is troubling... is there any advice for what to do when you come across things like this? any advice on how can i understand these things to be true? is there somewhere i can go to get trustworthy information about strange or troubling hadith? thanks in advance
Asalaamu Alaikum, Jazakallahu khayr for sharing your issues with us as it is knowledge that will enable us to gain clarity on any matter.

Firstly we must realise that we cannot rely on science to dictate to us what is and what is not possible. According to science God does not exist, does that mean we will believe science over our religion? According to science Jinn does not exist nor does angels. So how is it physically possible for Jinns and angels to exist? Can Science explain it?

How about the 7 heavens? We know from the Qur'an and hadith that they exist but can they really be explained scientifically? How do we know that one day they wont be discovered? Remember any discovery made is ONLY by the will of Allah. If he wills then certain discoveries will be made.

Science cannot explain something that has not been discovered yet. If we look at the time the Qur'an was revealed we will realise that the Qur'an contained many scientifc facts that has only been discovered recently. For example regarding sprem production, about the cerebelum, constellation of the stars, cloud structure, different water densities not mixing, mountains holding the land together and many more examples.

Now how do you think the people at that time who read such verses felt? They had never heard of such things before and at the time there was no such studies or technology to be able to make such discoveries. They simply beleived in what Allah had mentioned in the Qur'an to the best of their undrstanding. But now that we do have the technology we can confirm and attest to the facts in the Qur'an 1400 years ago and so we have a deeper understanding of those verses than those in the past could.

Sameway whilst right now there isn’t any evidence of the fact that Adam (As) was 90 feet tall there also is no evidence against it. So the same applies as it did in the past. We can only try and interpret it to the best of our ability and know that there are many possibilities to this. Just like the 7 heavens have not been discovered yet in the sameway Adam (As) bones have not been discovered yet. It may or may not be discovered in our time no one knows but Allah.

Maybe people used to be that gigantic but when Noah’s flood came and destroyed all the people, their bodies were washed up and there is no trace for archaeological findings. There are many possibilities.

There werent even that many people in those days so if they did all die then it would be highly unlikely they would be found but there is always a possibilty that they will.

Do you seriously beleive that everything in this Earch has already been discovered? We havent even scratched the surface yet. There is SO much yet to be discovered. Did you know there are still rainforests on Earth that have not even been explored yet? Did you know there are still MANY places in this Earth that have not even been discovered. So the potential for discovery is enormous. Scientific fact can be scientific fact today but tomorrow they may change completely.

Just recently they have discovered of many new pyramids in Egypt that are yet to be discovered buried in the desert and they only found out due to new satellite technology.

So the truth is that there is SO much yet to be discovered so whilst at the moment there is no proof or evidence for Adam (As) being 90 foot, yet there is also no proof or evidence against it.

So we should never rely on science to prove aspects of our religion because science is and always will chang depending on what is discovered. Everytime a discovery is made then science has to change accordingly whereas our religion has and always will remain the same until the end of times and the Qur'an and Sunnah has already been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that science is even confirming the facts in the Qur'an and Sunnah all of the time and to this day NOT one scientific fact in the Qur'an has been disaproved but has actually been proven to be correct.

So just like the seven heavens have not been discovered as yet then the same applies to the bones of Adam (As) yet we do not need these discoveries to be made to know that they are the truth because we know that they exist and it is ONLY by the will of Allah that they will ever be discovered by man. Looking at the potential for discovery there is always the possibility that they will be discovered if Allah wills.

And Allah knows best in all matters
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anonymous
07-18-2011, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
According to science God does not exist
But that's not actually true. science says nothing about God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So the point i am trying to make is while there isn’t any evidence of the fact that Adam (As) was 90 feet tall there also is no evidence against it. There are many possibilities.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So the truth is that there is SO much yet to be discovered so whilst at the moment there is no proof or evidence for Adam (As) being 90 foot, yet there is also no proof or evidence against it.
but what i'm trying to say is that based on what i know, and what others have said regarding the matter... there does seem to be evidence against it. (that is, if you decide that adam was still a MAN like us, and that he roamed our earth... then problems arise, at least from the debates i've seen on different forums...
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Hamza Asadullah
07-18-2011, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
But that's not actually true. science says nothing about God.

Science and scientists are always trying to disaprove the existence of God. Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking and many many other great scientists. There is no doubt that the majority of scientists do not believe in God and many of the works of the greatest scientists also attest to this fact.

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
but what i'm trying to say is that based on what i know, and what others have said regarding the matter... there does seem to be evidence against it. (that is, if you decide that adam was still a MAN like us, and that he roamed our earth... then problems arise, at least from the debates i've seen on different forums...
That is totally incorrect though what evidence is their against it? They are pure assumptions. As i mentioned in my last post there is NO evidence for or against the fact that Adam (As) was 90 foot tall.

I would personally say there is more evidence for because of the fact that there were many ancient huge temples and shrines found which only could have been used by much bigger humans. On top of that if Dinosaurs existed then how can big humans not have been able to walk the Earth?

Even if big humans were discovered it would be very worrying for scientists and would certainly disaprove their evolution theories. I would not be surprised if scientists went as far as to destroy such evidence.

Check this out. Do not know how real it is but though it was interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-8bV...layer_embedded
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جوري
07-18-2011, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
There is no doubt that the majority of scientists do not believe in God and many of the works of the greatest scientists also attest to this fact.
I don't think that the majority of scientists disbelieve in God .. having two or three vocal atheists who hold doctorate doesn't represent nor speak for the entire scientific community. In fact some studies attest that the majority of scientists do believe in God, but my personal opinion is that is a waste of resource, that is to run studies on people's beliefs as well for any scientist to use his authority in a field to branch out into a philosophical one. It simply can't be proven or disproven especially when comes to the origin of life..

:w:
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Alpha Dude
07-18-2011, 05:00 AM
But that's not actually true. science says nothing about God.
According to science God does not exist
The point is, there is no consensus on the existence of God. They haven't 'scientifically proven it'. So what we're saying here is, why give yourself grief on the matter of how they existed at that height, when you are believing in Allah without it having been proven to you 'scientifically' in the first place.

It's always going to be a matter of faith (but shouldn't be blind faith). Like dagless said, if you see 99 reasons to believe and come across one thing which doesn't make sense to you, surely the 99 parts would make you realise that the other thing must be true as well (even though you personally can't understand why).

If you go walking to Allah, he comes running to you. So be sincere, ask Allah for guidance from the depths of your heart and inshaAllah what you find confusing on this matter will be resolved.
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tigerkhan
07-18-2011, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
just recently i came across a hadith that, while not disturbing, caused me to have some doubt. it's the one that i believe is in bukhari, about the prophet adam being 90 feet tall. based on what i know, that size for a human being isn't supported by any evidence, and i don't think it's physically possible for a human to exist at that size.
if u are told that a man is alive in today world and his agess is 1400 years !!! would u blv ? surely it will be difficult to blv bcz we see nowadays a person after 100 years bcm much weak. but Quran says Noh AS preech for 950 years and his age was more than that. so things are diffrent in that time and even scinece is proving them. the ppl of saba were as tall as tree and i remember there was some pictures of that huge skelton in jordan and scientist says that was of ppl of saba...so its very clear that ppl of that was very tall and have long life.
thats much clear, so the the pbm i am seeing with u is, u have weak basic...so my humble request is plz first focus more on towheed, ahrra, janat, etc and then proceed further.
Abudulah Ibn Masood had siad, tahalum nal iman, suma tahalum nal quran.
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Dagless
07-18-2011, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
but what i'm trying to say is that based on what i know, and what others have said regarding the matter
Well nobody knows because we were not alive at that time.

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
... there does seem to be evidence against it.
How can there be evidence against something we have no knowledge of? The evidence is only based on us now.

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
(that is, if you decide that adam was still a MAN like us
A man, but at 90ft obviously not like us.

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
, and that he roamed our earth... then problems arise, at least from the debates i've seen on different forums...
Not exactly 'our earth' since the earth changes in terms of atmosphere, temperatures, etc. as time passes. It's not something we can know for sure.

Why isn't the explanation that he (pbuh) was 90ft in heaven acceptable?
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anonymous
07-29-2011, 04:56 PM
Why isn't the explanation that he (pbuh) was 90ft in heaven acceptable?
That explanation IS acceptable, but I wanted to know if that explanation was acceptable in and of itself... if it was a valid interpretation... Since most of the opinions i see are of Adam being 90 ft tall on earth, and then we gradually decreased in size over the years... this is the interpretation i (and others) havce issues with. also, i dont think people here are understanding what i mean about it not being possible, and that i should just have faith... 90 feet tall is TALL... i can't think of a single land animal (alive or extinct) that came close to that height... even animals that are tall are build differently in order to physically stay up and not fall apart. if adam was still a man, and was still shaped like us and proportioned like us, then 90 feet tall would be physically impossible to maintain (unless of course Allah (swt) suspended the laws of physics to accomodate adams size... i'm sure you can see how that is unlikeley though... also, about the evidence... i understand that we cant expect to find fossils, but if people of that size were roaming the earth, even if it was for a relatively short while, then there should be SOME signs, right? houses, tools, etc... (actually, while browsing the internet and forums looking for answers to this, i saw someone bring up an old scholar who had a similar observation about the lack of evidence towards giant people... i don't remember the scholars name though.. i think it was something like ibn hajr, or ibn hajar... i could be wrong though) although to be honest, i can't really imagine what they would build things with, since they'd be so incredibly big (try to imagine a 90 foot tall being anywhere and you'll see just how strange that would look)...

Sorry for disappearing for a while, i've been busy... but as you can see, this question is still bugging me, and i dont' feel like i've gotten a definite answer yet... please be patient with me, and thank you for all your responses so far.
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May Ayob
07-29-2011, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
That explanation IS acceptable, but I wanted to know if that explanation was acceptable in and of itself... if it was a valid interpretation... Since most of the opinions i see are of Adam being 90 ft tall on earth, and then we gradually decreased in size over the years... this is the interpretation i (and others) havce issues with. also, i dont think people here are understanding what i mean about it not being possible, and that i should just have faith... 90 feet tall is TALL... i can't think of a single land animal (alive or extinct) that came close to that height... even animals that are tall are build differently in order to physically stay up and not fall apart. if adam was still a man, and was still shaped like us and proportioned like us, then 90 feet tall would be physically impossible to maintain (unless of course Allah (swt) suspended the laws of physics to accomodate adams size... i'm sure you can see how that is unlikeley though... also, about the evidence... i understand that we cant expect to find fossils, but if people of that size were roaming the earth, even if it was for a relatively short while, then there should be SOME signs, right? houses, tools, etc... (actually, while browsing the internet and forums looking for answers to this, i saw someone bring up an old scholar who had a similar observation about the lack of evidence towards giant people... i don't remember the scholars name though.. i think it was something like ibn hajr, or ibn hajar... i could be wrong though) although to be honest, i can't really imagine what they would build things with, since they'd be so incredibly big (try to imagine a 90 foot tall being anywhere and you'll see just how strange that would look).


Salaam Anonymous;

Why are you disturbed by this Hadeeth? Be frank are you loosing your faith in God because you've read this Hadeeth.
One thing you should know is that God will not ask us about Prophet Adam's height it very irrelevent.
Also Adam's height is not one of the sentiments in the Articles of faith.
We follow the Qura'n first then the Sunnah, And there are many ahadeeth that are not accurate.
I think you should stop worrying about Prophet Adam's height, It's clearly not relevant and will certainly use your time in vain.
I don't see why it really matters how tall giant people were.. We don't have accurate historical facts about this either.
Ibn hajar is a human being in first place his words are not the words of God nor are they the words of His messenger PBUH so if he made a wrong judgement ( he will be rewarded for his effort) and If he made a correct judgement he will also be rewarded for his effort but this is not the case.
Never the less bear in mind that God is Capable of everything and If He wants something to be with a single command : Of merely saying Be) It will exist

I hope I wasn't hard on you, I also hope this helps

Salaam and Ramadhan Mubarak.
Reply

Salahudeen
07-29-2011, 06:23 PM
There are many things in Islam that are beyond our comprehension and we can't understand them, and science has no explanation for them, the human soul is one of the those things, We have a soul that's driving our body like a person drives a car, can science prove we have a soul? Can they proove we don't have a soul? Brother Hamza gave plentiful examples of such instances, can science proove magic and jinn possession? but we believe in that. If we applied your principle and tried to find an explanation of how everything works then we would reject a lot of things in Islam because we don't understand how magic can influence a person, and many other examples exist of things that we don't understand the "how".

Look at this hadith and tell me what you think

"If there is any one of you flies fall in his drink he dip it and take it out, because one of its wings has a disease and the other contains the medicine" [Bukhari].

Many non muslims made fun of this hadith and mocked it saying how can this be true science hasn't proven this, flies are dirty things, but then what happened? New research showed it's actually true, many people when they read this hadith thought it was disgusting and didn't believe it because it was contrary to what they believed to be possible/true.

The problem is your basis for determining truth and falsehood is science/logic you're thinking to yourself "this can't be true because it's not possible according to science/logic so I need to find an explanation that fits with science/logic" but it is for this very reason people rejected Islam in the time of the prophet (pbuh) it wasn't logical/possible according to them that a poor man from among themselves is a prophet of God, it wasn't logical/possible for them that the Prophet went from Makkah to Jerusalem, then ascended through the 7 heavens to meet Allaah, then come back to Makkah all in one night. This isn't even possible in our times, how could the prophet (saw) have done this? We don't understand how but we believe in it because it's the truth.

If you asked me or any scientist how it was possible that a man travels to the heavens on a animal named al boraq they would not be able to explain to you how it took place, they would also not be able to explain how an illiterate man was able to produce a masterpiece in the arabic language it's not possible they would say and so if a person continues down this path he would eventually reject everything that he can not find an explanation for that makes sense to him.

Just like we can't understand how Gibrael filled up the entire sky when he appeared the prophet (saw) after the first revelation we can't understand the mechanics behind how Adam was so big. We can't understand how Gibrael opened the chest of the prophet (saw) and took his heart and washed it in a container, this isn't possible either is it, a person would die if you took their heart out of their chest but yet it happened and we believe in it without understanding "how" it's possible.

I know you don't like blind faith but that's what's required when we can't understand the how of things because the alternative is to reject, and when you reject things that you can't understand then you will reject much of Islam. You will reject many miracles because you can't understand how it's possible that they took place.

Another thing I can't understand is how angels are in the sky, the prophet (saw) said the sky is filled with angels and there's not an empty space, every space is filled with angels doing ruku or prostration to Allah, I can't understand what the angels are standing on in the sky or how they're doing sajdah in air but I believe in it because the prophet (saw) said it and for me to reject it because it doesn't conform with what little knowledge we have today would be wrong because Allah is the ultimate possessor of knowledge and to reject something because of the little knowledge that people have today would be foolish, the reason it's foolish is because nothing is absolute on Earth, before the Earth was flat today it's round. Who knows what discoveries they will make in another 100 years and you're going to reject this belief because the people of the Earth are saying it's impossible, rather listen and believe in the hadith of the prophet (saw) and give him priority over what the people of Earth tell you because they will eventually tell you what the prophet (saw) was saying all along as previous examples demonstrate.

You have revelation from Allah telling you things, the how we don't know, just as a thousand years ago they didn't understand the "how" of many things we understand today. But they still believed in the things they didn't understand how they could be possible.
Reply

Alpha Dude
08-10-2011, 04:55 PM
An enormous jawbone found in Kazakhstan is further evidence that giant birds roamed - or flew above - the Earth at the same time as the dinosaurs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14466814

Nothing that will conclusively break your doubts, but it's interesting to see that they've found evidence of a giant bird when they thought there weren't any. "People have said there weren't big birds when there were big pterosaurs, but now we know there were."

Plus, they've only found two such examples so far. If we were to assume the human population during the giant days wasn't so much, it isn't hard to see why giant human fossils might not have been found.
Reply

BenBa
02-29-2016, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
That explanation IS acceptable, but I wanted to know if that explanation was acceptable in and of itself... if it was a valid interpretation... Since most of the opinions i see are of Adam being 90 ft tall on earth, and then we gradually decreased in size over the years... this is the interpretation i (and others) havce issues with. also, i dont think people here are understanding what i mean about it not being possible, and that i should just have faith... 90 feet tall is TALL... i can't think of a single land animal (alive or extinct) that came close to that height... even animals that are tall are build differently in order to physically stay up and not fall apart. if adam was still a man, and was still shaped like us and proportioned like us, then 90 feet tall would be physically impossible to maintain (unless of course Allah (swt) suspended the laws of physics to accomodate adams size... i'm sure you can see how that is unlikeley though... also, about the evidence... i understand that we cant expect to find fossils, but if people of that size were roaming the earth, even if it was for a relatively short while, then there should be SOME signs, right? houses, tools, etc... (actually, while browsing the internet and forums looking for answers to this, i saw someone bring up an old scholar who had a similar observation about the lack of evidence towards giant people... i don't remember the scholars name though.. i think it was something like ibn hajr, or ibn hajar... i could be wrong though) although to be honest, i can't really imagine what they would build things with, since they'd be so incredibly big (try to imagine a 90 foot tall being anywhere and you'll see just how strange that would look)...

Sorry for disappearing for a while, i've been busy... but as you can see, this question is still bugging me, and i dont' feel like i've gotten a definite answer yet... please be patient with me, and thank you for all your responses so far.
Mashaallah,brother or sister, you have something i dont have, strong nerves.
Even though i like Muslim brothers and sisters .. they being so adamant to not use their brains drives me crazy. Now lets just take a moment to think why Allah has sent Islam.. because christians and jews added stuff to their religion. And corrupted their beliefs, even changed the books. And Allah swears in Quran that Quran will not be changed. But, there are always other ways to create fitnah and make a religion who gives so much importance to thinking (in Quran its highlighted many times that one should look at creations and should think) and celebrates reasoning (Like in Hz. Ibrahim's story, he kept reasoning to find the truth.. and tried to make his people reason too.. by asking them rhetorical questions.. which rang a bell in their mind but then they adamantly turned back to their traditions) turn into something in which the followers just read words of people and believe them as if its Allah s word and push others to believe as well ... Well, sister or brother.. i dont know your stand about hadiths but.. i would just say consider questioning at least some of them. It wouldnt make you a sinner inshaallah, for that definition of Islam does not require believing every other hadith we hear. And questioning is the way we pray Allah to give his guidance
Reply

Insaanah
02-29-2016, 08:01 PM
^ Welcome to the forum.

May I ask, what made you dig out a thread over four years old as your first post?
Reply

BenBa
03-01-2016, 07:13 AM
Thanks. Well i actually was googling something and it directed me to this very page. Not to the forum,i mean to this thread. And replying that anonymous sister/or brother was the reason i registered to the forum. Because i felt like i have to say something about it, seeing all the "dont question but believe" medieval behaviour.
Reply

~ Sabr ~
03-14-2016, 03:40 PM
:salamext:

This is waswas. Please ignore it and seek refuge in Allaah from the shaytaan. I had a similar sort of waswas when I was around 17 years old....but when you gain more knowledge of Islaam :ia: these silly thoughts will go away.

May Allaah help you
Reply

Mufti Monk
07-03-2016, 04:50 AM
Not only did humans shrink, but mammals also shrunk. For the biological architecture, humans and animals were originally larger in size due to the larger size of jannat. They shrank on earth in an evolutionary manner due to earth's smaller gravity. If humans and animals migrate to a large planet say, they both will again evolve to bigger sizes over time to counter the effects of gravity.
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kritikvernunft
07-03-2016, 05:34 AM
In the book Genesis of the Torah, Adam is claimed to be the first farmer, i.e. the first human to engage in agriculture.
There is indeed a claim by research historians that says:

As human societies adopted agriculture, their people became shorter and less healthy.
Early Farmers Were Sicker and Shorter Than Their Forager Ancestors.
Humans paid a heavy biological cost for agriculture.
This effect was seen over thousands of years, starting at the dawn of agriculture about 10,000 years ago.

Therefore, yes, there are reasons to believe that Adam was taller than his descendants (i.e. we).
As you know, the Adam and Eve events took place only around 10,000 years ago.
In terms of religion, the species that could have preceded Adam and Eve are not really counted as our current human race.
In that view, the human race only started around 10,000 years ago, when people started farming.
Reply

Scimitar
07-03-2016, 06:17 AM
Not buying that - have my reasons and research, but i dont have time to reply properly... maybe later

Scimi
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AhmedGassama
07-03-2016, 12:10 PM
If there are Hadiths which opposes the Quran then the Hadith is wrong even if it come from Bukhari and Muslim because both of them are human and any human can make mistakes. Very simple!
Reply

T L
07-03-2016, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
In the book Genesis of the Torah, Adam is claimed to be the first farmer, i.e. the first human to engage in agriculture.
There is indeed a claim by research historians that says:

As human societies adopted agriculture, their people became shorter and less healthy.
Early Farmers Were Sicker and Shorter Than Their Forager Ancestors.
Humans paid a heavy biological cost for agriculture.
This effect was seen over thousands of years, starting at the dawn of agriculture about 10,000 years ago.

Therefore, yes, there are reasons to believe that Adam was taller than his descendants (i.e. we).
As you know, the Adam and Eve events took place only around 10,000 years ago.
In terms of religion, the species that could have preceded Adam and Eve are not really counted as our current human race.
In that view, the human race only started around 10,000 years ago, when people started farming.

Where is your evidence to support this?

Do not rely on a researcher's/scientist's findings to support something which is only a theory. Especially from said articles. You're basing your conclusions on a scientific method which is greatly limited and flawed.

"The data suggests" is not the same as "fact/truth"
This is incorrect thinking.

Please benefit from the following video




In regards to hadith, as a general rule if anything contradicts the Qur'an then we cannot rely on it. HOWEVER, any doubts should require further investigation because we have the God-given intellect to question everything and seek truth right through to the point of absolute conviction. Such investigations require the correct methodology and our faculty of reasoning. It is not mere guess work or accepting weak sources without questioning them because we can't be arsed to research ourselves.


~LV
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kritikvernunft
07-03-2016, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by L V
Do not rely on a researcher's/scientist's findings to support something which is only a theory.
It is their claim, not mine. I did not personally participate in that research project. In fact, it is not even my problem. I am not even particularly interested in that field.
format_quote Originally Posted by L V
You're basing your conclusions on a scientific method which is greatly limited and flawed.
I do not believe for a second that repeatable experiments are even possible for this particular claim. As I wrote, these people are historians (and not scientist). They are not dealing with repeatable facts, but with historical ones.
format_quote Originally Posted by L V
"The data suggests" is not the same as "fact/truth". This is incorrect thinking.
Yes, but the article never said it was "the truth". These people just happened to have dug up archeological materials, and that treated that material as independent witness depositions concerning particular historical facts. It is conditionally allowed to do that, and give excavation material the status of witness depositions for historical facts.
format_quote Originally Posted by L V
In regards to hadith, as a general rule if anything contradicts the Qur'an then we cannot rely on it.
The core claim is that hunter-gatherers were generally taller than the farmers who descended from them ("Adam's descendants").
In my impression, the Quran does not mention this claim nor its opposite. It is only mentioned in the Sunnah.
The historical research, that investigated historical facts witnessed through excavations, has made an inventory of these witness deposition equivalents.
Historical research never makes any claims as to the repeatability of such unique historical facts. The historical method has nothing to do with science or its experimental repetition.
The witness deposition equivalents just seem to be in accordance with the core claim; and that is all there is to it.
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Lisa921
07-03-2016, 09:41 PM
salaam alaykum wr wb
thank you for asking questions.
its very important to use your mind with islam and think logically before you do anything
But also we must know the limitations of our minds and that we will never understand what it was like to be muhammad and live in muhammads time because it was so long ago and it is not coming back. The world has changed and as far as I know some hadiths are context specific meaning they were said by Muhammad for that time and period they were said in. THey are not meant as universal laws, some of them. Thats why logic dictates that we research first before blindly accepting something to be true.
I know if you come from a christian background before islam this can be hard to do. Because like you, i myself was christian too and i know how blind faith is engrained into the teachings of Christianity. Its hard to break out of that pattern. ISlam is totally different and thats one thing I love about my new faith Islam. I will always be muslim because islam allows questions and study of religion. its not about blindly following things that don't seem to make sense.
i think it would be beneficial to find a scholar near you to answer your questions and give you the context in which those hadiths were written to help you on your search for truth
may Allah be with you
ameen
lisa
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