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Tawangar
07-18-2011, 06:08 AM
Al Salamu 'Alaykum.


"My child, We watch and see the houses of My Son crumbling, being destroyed throughout your world. Doors are closing, convents are emptying, and the dedicated are leaving and falling into all manner of sin and abominations. Who shall be in the remnant? Only a few will be saved."
Our Lady of the Roses, May 26, 1976


In 1965, 104,000 sisters were teaching, while in 2002 there were only 8,200 teachers (79% decline).

BBC reported on February 5, 2008:


The Vatican has reported a further dramatic fall in the number of Roman Catholic monks and nuns worldwide.

Newly published statistics showed that the number of men and women belonging to religious orders fell by 10%* to just under a million between 2005 and 2006.
During the pontificate of the late Pope John Paul II, the number of Catholic nuns worldwide declined by a quarter.
The downward trend accelerated despite a steady increase in the membership of the Catholic Church to more than 1.1bn.
However, correspondents say even this failed to keep pace with the overall increase in world population.
Dramatic fall
On the back page of its official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican published on Monday new statistics revealing that between 2005 and 2006 the number "members of the consecrated life" fell by just under 10%. [*Note: The Vatican disputes this 10% figure, even though it came from the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano: "accurate figures showed a decline of just 7,230 over that one-year period."
The number of members, predominantly women, some engaged only in constant prayer, others working as teachers, health workers and missionaries, fell 94,790 to 945,210.
Of the total, 753,400 members were women, while 191,810 were men, including 136,171 priests and 532 permanent deacons.
The figures were published next to a report of Pope Benedict XVI's meeting with nuns, monks and priests from many countries gathered in St Peter's Basilica in Rome last weekend.
The BBC's David Willey in the Italian capital says the accelerating downward trend must have caused concern to the Pope.
The Roman Catholic Church has an aging and diminishing number of parish and diocesan clergy and this latest fall is quite dramatic, our correspondent says.
The number of Catholic nuns worldwide declined by about a quarter during the reign of Pope John Paul, and this further drop shows that new recruits are failing to replace those nuns who die, or decide to abandon their vows, he adds.
"Therefore, I warn you now as your God: You will stop your intricacies within My Church. You will stop experimenting. I gave you the rules to follow many years ago, two thousand years approximately. And why now, two thousand years later, do you deem it necessary to change My Church upon earth? I, your God, say to you, you will be judged accordingly. You will return My Church to its former glory, and in that manner you will have more vocations and more entering the seminaries, and not fleeing from them as they hear the heresies and all other innovations that are going on within My Church. This is My last and final word to My clergy: Change now or suffer a just punishment and banishment.” - Jesus, June 18, 1986
********
Statistical decline of the Catholic Church since Vatican II...
The following statistics are originally from Kenneth Jones' Index of Leading Catholic Indicators:

Priests. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests--and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70. Right now there are more priests aged 80 to 84 than there are aged 30 to 34.

Ordinations. In 1965 there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood, in 2002 there were 450, a decline of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

Priestless parishes. About 1 percent of parishes, 549, were without a resident priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of U.S. parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700--a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

Sisters. 180,000 sisters were the backbone of the Catholic education and health systems in 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000--and of these, only 21,000 will be aged 70 or under. In 1965, 104,000 sisters were teaching, while in 2002 there were only 8,200 teachers.

Brothers. The number of professed brothers decreased from about 12,000 in 1965 to 5,700 in 2002, with a further drop to 3,100 projected for 2020.

Religious Orders. The religious orders will soon be virtually non-existent in the United States. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 38 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. There were 1,148 Redemptorist priests in 1965 and 1,128 seminarians; in 2000 there were 349 priests and 24 seminarians. Every major religious order in the United States mirrors these statistics.

High Schools. Between 1965 and 2002 the number of diocesan high schools fell from 1,566 to 786. At the same time the number of students dropped from almost 700,000 to 386,000.

Parochial Grade Schools. There were 10,503 parochial grade schools in 1965 and 6,623 in 2002. The number of students went from 4.5 million to 1.9 million.

Sacramental Life. In 1965 there were 1.3 million infant baptisms; in 2002 there were 1 million. (In the same period the number of Catholics in the United States rose from 45 million to 65 million.) In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms-----converts-----in 2002 there were 80,000. In 1965 there were 352,000 Catholic marriages, in 2002 there were 256,000. In 1965 there were 338 annulments, in 2002 there were 50,000.

Mass attendance. A 1958 Gallup poll reported that 74 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1958. A 1994 University of Notre Dame study found that the attendance rate was 26.6 percent. A more recent study by Fordham University professor James Lothian concluded that 65 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1965, while the rate dropped to 25 percent in 2000.

"The great Council, the Council that has brought forth discord, disunity, and the loss of souls, the major fact behind this destruction was because of the lack of prayer. Satan sat in within this Council, and he watched his advantage." - St. Michael, March 18, 1976


Wa Salamu 'Alaykum.
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UUSeeker
07-22-2011, 03:19 AM
While this is interesting, it is not just the Catholic Church which is in decline. All mainstream protestant denominations in the U.S. also have seen declines, with the exception of Assemblies of God and Jehovah's Witnesses.

There has been quite the discussion about this. My own faith tradition is not declining, per se, but it is not increasing at the same rate as the overall population.

The second-fastest growing segment of the U.S. population are those who claim no religious affiliation.

Since these types of discussions usually only include Christian sects, it does beg the question whether other religious traditions in the U.S. - including Islam - are also not seeing falling numbers of adherents.

The studies done on this usually include not only those who have never had a religion, or who had one and intentionally separated themselves from it, but also those who have simply drifted away and now feel no great need for religion in their life.

It is a most interesting situation, one mirrored in much of the Western World.

Peace,

Seeker
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Riana17
07-24-2011, 01:56 AM
Salam Alaikkum

Very interesting, people would deny this of course, but I think the best way is to look at Christians, those around me merely go to church once a year (used to be me), it is fact that it is very hard to do something without real faith.

May Allah reward you for posting.

Salam
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Hiroshi
07-26-2011, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by UUSeeker
While this is interesting, it is not just the Catholic Church which is in decline. All mainstream protestant denominations in the U.S. also have seen declines, with the exception of Assemblies of God and Jehovah's Witnesses.

There has been quite the discussion about this. My own faith tradition is not declining, per se, but it is not increasing at the same rate as the overall population.

The second-fastest growing segment of the U.S. population are those who claim no religious affiliation.

Since these types of discussions usually only include Christian sects, it does beg the question whether other religious traditions in the U.S. - including Islam - are also not seeing falling numbers of adherents.

The studies done on this usually include not only those who have never had a religion, or who had one and intentionally separated themselves from it, but also those who have simply drifted away and now feel no great need for religion in their life.

It is a most interesting situation, one mirrored in much of the Western World.

Peace,

Seeker
It is kind of you to note that Jehovah's Witnesses (my religion) is on the increase while others are in decline.

The drying up of support for the Catholics and others is the fulfillment of a prophecy in Revelation 16:12 "And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun."

In ancient times the Euphrates river served as part of the defense of the city of Babylon. When its waters were dried up (Isaiah 44:27), enemy soldiers could invade the city by marching along the dry river bed. Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians in one night (Daniel 5:30-31).

So too in modern times there is a city called "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5). This symbolic city represents the world empire of false religion. Like ancient Babylon it is protected by "water". Revelation 17:15 says that these waters "mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues." The vast numbers of people who have given support to false religion have protected it from any opposition. But now with support drying up and huge numbers leaving the churches, they are left open and vulnerable to attack. Their destruction is soon to come (Revelation 17:16-17).
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Riana17
07-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
It is kind of you to note that Jehovah's Witnesses (my religion) is on the increase while others are in decline.

The drying up of support for the Catholics and others is the fulfillment of a prophecy in Revelation 16:12 "And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun."

In ancient times the Euphrates river served as part of the defense of the city of Babylon. When its waters were dried up (Isaiah 44:27), enemy soldiers could invade the city by marching along the dry river bed. Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians in one night (Daniel 5:30-31).

So too in modern times there is a city called "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5). This symbolic city represents the world empire of false religion. Like ancient Babylon it is protected by "water". Revelation 17:15 says that these waters "mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues." The vast numbers of people who have given support to false religion have protected it from any opposition. But now with support drying up and huge numbers leaving the churches, they are left open and vulnerable to attack. Their destruction is soon to come (Revelation 17:16-17).

Salam Brother,
we respect your religion but maybe you can find time and see the truth of ISLAM
Presently around 8Million people can fit to pray in Kabbah in Mecca, and atleast 3Million people performs hajj every year.

If ISLAM is not the true religion, I think there would be alot of contradictions in QURAN or atleast one.
People would ask why you become a Muslim and you leave Christianity, I think I am not against any religion, infact I become more Christian when I converted to ISLAM, the difference is THAT Islam made me follow the religion, when I was Christian, I believe there is God & so on but I hardly go to church in a year.....praying 5times daily, fasting, striving hard to have good intention at all times, they are not easy tasks, they are very hard at the start, but I think Muslims will not do the hard work if ISLAM is not the truth.

There are things we do out of conscience or teachings etc and others are just exceptional.

Demographically there are 38,000 registered Christian denominations, so basically if people are open Minded, the fastest and most growing religion and presently highest in followers is ISLAM (Sunni specifically)

So as one of the Priest said in youtube video, I was not satisfied with my religion, I cant deny there is error, when I really fear God, I think I should pray and ask for the right guidance and I must start to search, then he study all religion etc,,, and that's how he found ISLAM


Salam, just sharing,,
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Hiroshi
07-27-2011, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Riana17

People would ask why you become a Muslim and you leave Christianity, I think I am not against any religion, infact I become more Christian when I converted to ISLAM, the difference is THAT Islam made me follow the religion, when I was Christian, I believe there is God & so on but I hardly go to church in a year.....praying 5times daily, fasting, striving hard to have good intention at all times, they are not easy tasks, they are very hard at the start, but I think Muslims will not do the hard work if ISLAM is not the truth.
Yes, I live in London and I can clearly see that Muslims are far more dedicated and consciencious about their religion than most church goers. Churches are empty everywhere while Islam is thriving. And Muslims even organise literature distribution in the local high street where they zealously preach about their faith. I have made friends with many of them.

Originally Posted by Riana17

If ISLAM is not the true religion, I think there would be alot of contradictions in QURAN or atleast one.
Well, to be truthful, I do find the Qur'an a problem. Difficulties are always explained away but not convincingly.

For instance, Surah 5:20 has Moses talking to the Israelites and saying: "Remember Allah's favour upon you, how He placed among you Prophets and He made you kings" (Pickthall).

But this is not historically correct. Before the time of Moses there were no Israelite kings or prophets.
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Al-manar
07-27-2011, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
For instance, Surah 5:20 has Moses talking to the Israelites and saying: "Remember Allah's favour upon you, how He placed among you Prophets and He made you kings" (Pickthall).
But this is not historically correct. Before the time of Moses there were no Israelite kings or prophets.


If we note ,some translations rendered the word (mulukan) as (kings) while others rendered it (owners):

eg;

Muhammad Asad AND, LO, Moses said unto his people:" O my people! Remember the blessings which God bestowed upon you when he raised up prophets among you, and made you your own masters, and granted unto you [favours] such as He had not granted to anyone else in the world.


[Al-Muntakhab] He raised in your midst Prophets and conferred on you sovereignty and made all grace abound in you and graced you with favours and privileges and such prerogatives He never bestowed on other people*.

Amatul Rahman Omar He raised Prophets among you and made you masters of your own affairs, and He gave you what He has not given to any other of your contemporary peoples.

Shabbir Ahmed He raised Prophets among you and made you your own masters. And He gave you what He had not given to any other peoples."


Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)He appointed among you prophets and made you possessors and gave you that which He had not given anyone among the worlds.

The word (Mulukan) comes from (malak) to own ,posses ..... anyone who is independent ,owner of his decision can be called (malek)

so the Israeli became free ,owners ,independent after slavery in that sense we can call them they were (Mulukan ,masters) .....

that point was discussed in the classic tafsirs as well .....
eg:Alqurtubi....Alkashaf,Alrazi etc....


Originally Posted by Hiroshi

Before the time of Moses there were no Israelite prophets. .
If Moses told them that God has blessed them with prophets that should include Moses himself ,Joseph,Haroun ,and any others of Jacob's seed that not mentioned ...

peace
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Riana17
07-28-2011, 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Al-manar
If we note ,some translations rendered the word (mulukan) as (kings) while others rendered it (owners):

eg;

Muhammad Asad AND, LO, Moses said unto his people:" O my people! Remember the blessings which God bestowed upon you when he raised up prophets among you, and made you your own masters, and granted unto you [favours] such as He had not granted to anyone else in the world.


[Al-Muntakhab] He raised in your midst Prophets and conferred on you sovereignty and made all grace abound in you and graced you with favours and privileges and such prerogatives He never bestowed on other people*.

Amatul Rahman Omar He raised Prophets among you and made you masters of your own affairs, and He gave you what He has not given to any other of your contemporary peoples.

Shabbir Ahmed He raised Prophets among you and made you your own masters. And He gave you what He had not given to any other peoples."


Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)He appointed among you prophets and made you possessors and gave you that which He had not given anyone among the worlds.

The word (Mulukan) comes from (malak) to own ,posses ..... anyone who is independent ,owner of his decision can be called (malek)

so the Israeli became free ,owners ,independent after slavery in that sense we can call them they were (Mulukan ,masters) .....

that point was discussed in the classic tafsirs as well .....
eg:Alqurtubi....Alkashaf,Alrazi etc....




If Moses told them that God has blessed them with prophets that should include Moses himself ,Joseph,Haroun ,and any others of Jacob's seed that not mentioned ...

peace


Salam Alaikkum

Thank you for your input, may Allah be pleased with you. You answered it better than I can.

Brother Hiroshi,
You really are in my Duaa, may Allah-The Only Creator Love you all the time. Amen
Reply

Hiroshi
08-01-2011, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Riana17
Salam Alaikkum

Thank you for your input, may Allah be pleased with you. You answered it better than I can.

Brother Hiroshi,
You really are in my Duaa, may Allah-The Only Creator Love you all the time. Amen
Very kind words. Thank you Riana.
Reply

Crystal
09-12-2011, 11:46 PM
As I am from Ireland I was raised Catholic but I have never connected with the Catholic Church and that is why I am searching for new answers. I am a young person and a lot of my friends and young people in general call themselves Catholic but they are just Catholic by name not practice. I've always been very close to God but unfortunately I stopped going to church when I was about 14 years old because I felt like there was no engagement with us and the priest. And that's how a lot of young people feel today in Ireland. There is no engagement with us and the Catholic Church. 20 years ago Irish churches would have been packed for mass on Sunday and now a few older people are in Church praying so it is no surprise to me that there has been a decrease in monks priests and nuns etc. I think a lot of Irish people also feel betrayed by the abuse and scandal that has been recently been discovered within the Irish Catholic Church. I am glad that the Irish government has finally spoken out against the wrongs of the Vatican and this scandal. There has been a lot of wrongs done in the past and it will be very hard to get back that trust.
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Tawangar
11-14-2011, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Crystal
As I am from Ireland I was raised Catholic but I have never connected with the Catholic Church and that is why I am searching for new answers. I am a young person and a lot of my friends and young people in general call themselves Catholic but they are just Catholic by name not practice. I've always been very close to God but unfortunately I stopped going to church when I was about 14 years old because I felt like there was no engagement with us and the priest. And that's how a lot of young people feel today in Ireland. There is no engagement with us and the Catholic Church. 20 years ago Irish churches would have been packed for mass on Sunday and now a few older people are in Church praying so it is no surprise to me that there has been a decrease in monks priests and nuns etc. I think a lot of Irish people also feel betrayed by the abuse and scandal that has been recently been discovered within the Irish Catholic Church. I am glad that the Irish government has finally spoken out against the wrongs of the Vatican and this scandal. There has been a lot of wrongs done in the past and it will be very hard to get back that trust.
Islam is today the fastest growing faith in Ireland, sister.

http://drabutamim.blogspot.com/2011/...-religion.html
Reply

Amigo
11-15-2011, 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by Crystal
As I am from Ireland I was raised Catholic but I have never connected with the Catholic Church and that is why I am searching for new answers. I am a young person and a lot of my friends and young people in general call themselves Catholic but they are just Catholic by name not practice. I've always been very close to God but unfortunately I stopped going to church when I was about 14 years old because I felt like there was no engagement with us and the priest. And that's how a lot of young people feel today in Ireland. There is no engagement with us and the Catholic Church. 20 years ago Irish churches would have been packed for mass on Sunday and now a few older people are in Church praying so it is no surprise to me that there has been a decrease in monks priests and nuns etc. I think a lot of Irish people also feel betrayed by the abuse and scandal that has been recently been discovered within the Irish Catholic Church. I am glad that the Irish government has finally spoken out against the wrongs of the Vatican and this scandal. There has been a lot of wrongs done in the past and it will be very hard to get back that trust.
There was a time when I was around 18 when I was very frustrated with the Church. I wanted answers on so many question especially directions for my life, but could not see a frame for a young person like me to work with. I am glad I didn't quit church, because soon, I noticed a group of young people coming to the front to renew some vows and be blessed. I was surprised to see that. Later I hunted them down and joined them. I found a universe I was not aware existed. There is no agressive evangelisation, so many things remains unseen until you hunt for them or become extra attentive. Young people were all around me, but I had not noticed them because somehow my attention was somewhere else.
Of course it is still true that in many churches in the West, there are more elder people than young in terms of regular/daily attendance...

You say, the Church lost touch with youth, it appear so, until you experience things like World Youth Day. I have seen flags in WYDs from Christian minority countries, how does a young person from Indonesia notice WYD while a young person from Ireland misses it? Mystery of faith:)

Seriously; good things are precious, they are only found by those who honestly/seriously search for them. They are obvious, yet hiden to the uninterested eye... Like God.

As about the Fall and Fall... a smaller but purer Church is better than big and corrupt. The judgements of the Lord are always good and holy.
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Ramadhan
11-15-2011, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
There was a time when I was around 18 when I was very frustrated with the Church. I wanted answers on so many question especially directions for my life, but could not see a frame for a young person like me to work with. I am glad I didn't quit church, because soon, I noticed a group of young people coming to the front to renew some vows and be blessed. I was surprised to see that. Later I hunted them down and joined them. I found a universe I was not aware existed. There is no agressive evangelisation, so many things remains unseen until you hunt for them or become extra attentive. Young people were all around me, but I had not noticed them because somehow my attention was somewhere else.
Of course it is still true that in many churches in the West, there are more elder people than young in terms of regular/daily attendance...

You say, the Church lost touch with youth, it appear so, until you experience things like World Youth Day. I have seen flags in WYDs from Christian minority countries, how does a young person from Indonesia notice WYD while a young person from Ireland misses it? Mystery of faith

Seriously; good things are precious, they are only found by those who honestly/seriously search for them. They are obvious, yet hiden to the uninterested eye... Like God.

As about the Fall and Fall... a smaller but purer Church is better than big and corrupt. The judgements of the Lord are always good and holy.
It seems for catholics, church is the most important thing.
Even more important than commands of God and teachings of the prophets (pbut)
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Tawangar
11-16-2011, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

It seems for catholics, church is the most important thing.
Even more important than commands of God and teachings of the prophets (pbut)
Have to agree there, Sidi.
:wa:
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