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Tawangar
07-19-2011, 06:18 AM
Al Salamu 'Alaykum.Ghulam Nabi Azad, an Indian Minister was in the news lately for saying that homosexuality is a disease.;D The Gay-Lesbian-Transsexual-Modernist lobby jumped on his statement and created such a ruckus that he had to withdraw his statement and hide behind the usual excuse of being misquoted and misunderstood by the media.:hiding: The proponents of homosexuality claim that according to American Psychiatrists and Psychologists this is not a disease and they represented such to the Supreme Court of America. Let me puncture the balloon a bit:D. Please read the following citation carefully:


Errors by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the National Educational Association in representing homosexuality in Amicus briefs about amendment 2 to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Cameron, Paul; Cameron, Kirk; Landess, Thomas
Psychological Reports, Vol 79(2), Oct 1996, 383-404.
Abstract

  • In October 1995, consortiums of psychiatric and educational professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association and the National Educational Association, submitted amicus briefs to the U.S. Supreme Court asserting that the scientific literature unequivocally supports the following propositions:

(a) that homosexuals, including homosexual teachers, do not disproportionately molest children,

(b) that children of homosexual parents are not more likely to become homosexuals,

(c) that professionals agree that homosexuality is not a pathology, and

(d) that homosexual attractions are biologically or genetically predetermined and are therefore beyond the control of the individual.



The first two contentions are inconsistent with the scientific literature, and the second two grossly oversimplify a contentious and uncertain literature. :nervous:



(PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

Wa salam.
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Mr.President
07-19-2011, 12:38 PM
so whts the point ?
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GuestFellow
07-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Salaam,

I hold a different view. I don't think homosexuality is a disease unless someone can present very strong evidence. Also, I don't think homosexuality is simply caused by genetics. It could be a combination of biological and environmental factors. Besides, sexual attraction is not the sin. Acting upon your sexual urges is a sin.

Let's not make this a war lol. We already have a war against drugs and terror. :skeleton: We have Muslims that are struggling to control this desire and do need our support.
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birkah
07-19-2011, 09:42 PM
There are some genetics studies that establish a link between certain regions of the genome and being homosexual. However, there are also linkages between genes and cirme. So why do we not let criminal use the same excuse that it is in my genes?

Secondly, I read an article on Harpers Magazine from the 1960s where a physician treated homosexual individual. Unfortunatley, I don't have subscription to the magazine but if you go under psychotheraphy you will see the article. The physician mentioned that the key commonality between homosexuals was a lack of father figure, or an abusive father figure. So they were missing a bond with a male in their development, and thus looked for that in their homosexual relationships.

Islamically, it might be possible that a small minority of people may be inclined towards the opposite gender. However, that does not make it right for them to engage in the action. Just because someone likes haram (e.g. pornography) does that make it halal? Additionally, majority of the people who are homosexual are not true homosexual. I have been reading about this recently, and a trend that I have seen is that people start watching porn. Eventually, just for the sake of interest they watch gay porn and start liking it. Now they think they like it because they are gay. Google: your brain on porn (nothing haram) and Insh'Allah you will see what I'm talking about, and why people who are not homosexual think they are homosexuals, and end up with a confused identity. Also, anal intercourse is linked with homosexual behaviour. This fact amazes me; Prophet SAW forbade us from anal intercourse, and called it minor homosexuality (this is the stepping stone to true homosexuality).
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Ramadhan
07-20-2011, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by birkah
There are some genetics studies that establish a link between certain regions of the genome and being homosexual. However, there are also linkages between genes and cirme. So why do we not let criminal use the same excuse that it is in my genes?

Did they find these "certain regions of the genome" in gay adults or gay babies? Surely if one is "born gay", then they already have these genetic differences when they were babies, correct?

And I totally agree with your third paragraph analyses. Nurture plays a large part.
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Trumble
07-20-2011, 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Did they find these "certain regions of the genome" in gay adults or gay babies? Surely if one is "born gay", then they already have these genetic differences when they were babies, correct?
Correct. Genetic make-up does not change. Obviously samples were taken from adults (and their parents), as only then would their sexuality be established.

Originally Posted by birkah
There are some genetics studies that establish a link between certain regions of the genome and being homosexual. However, there are also linkages between genes and cirme. So why do we not let criminal use the same excuse that it is in my genes?
Actually, if it can be demonstrated such linkages have a significant influence on cognitive processes, that is a very interesting question (with quite an extensive literature already attached to it, accidently). What's your answer?


Originally Posted by Tawangar

The first two contentions are inconsistent with the scientific literature, and the second two grossly oversimplify a contentious and uncertain literature. :nervous:
The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the National Educational Association don't seem to agree. 'Argument by authority', perhaps, but I would tend to believe them rather than what appears to be just another bigot looking to religion to justify your hate. No offence.

Could you, perhaps, set out a full review/summary of the literature in something approaching an academic style (i.e. just a few one sided snippets that could be interpreted as supporting your favoured position) that supports you being right and them being wrong?
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Tawangar
07-21-2011, 06:08 AM
Buddy, what I have presented is a citation to a scientific paper which is on record.....nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Have you even bothered to read the post before asking in your smug fashion for something approaching an academic style? Read the abstract again. When you can't understand a simple abstract of a paper then what will you make of a "full summary"?
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Trumble
07-21-2011, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by Tawangar
Buddy, what I have presented is a citation to a scientific paper which is on record.....nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Have you even bothered to read the post before asking in your smug fashion for something approaching an academic style? Read the abstract again. When you can't understand a simple abstract of a paper then what will you make of a "full summary"?
'Buddy', if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about, you would know that any half-way serious attempt to justify such a claim involves far more than 'a citation to a scientific paper'. That's true at the best of times, but particularly true where the authors of the only paper being cited, 'scientific' or not, are notorious bigots themselves, whose work has generally been rejected by the scientific establishment even when they managed to get it published.

Cameron is a particular joy. Here's an example of his 'best' work from another paper ('Children of Homosexuals And Transsexuals More Apt To Be Homosexual', Journal of Biosocial Science, May 2006, CUP).

‘Common sense’ holds that homosexuality is ‘contagious’ (Levitt & Klassen, 1974). Thus Rees & Ushill [sic – ed.] (1956) state ‘it is vain to blind oneself to the fact that the problem of male homosexuality is in essence the problem of the corruption of youth by itself and by its elders. It is the problem of the creation by means of such corruption of new addicts ready to corrupt a still further generation of young men and boys in the future’ (p.29).
'Corruption'? 1974? 'Addicts'? 1956?! Yeah, OK.... I won't add any more to avoid being accused of an ad hominem, folks can read his/their work and reach their own conclusion.
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birkah
07-21-2011, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Actually, if it can be demonstrated such linkages have a significant influence on cognitive processes, that is a very interesting question (with quite an extensive literature already attached to it, accidently). What's your answer?
Cognitive processes is a very vauge term. Pornography can dominate one's cognitive processes. Most of the individuals arrested and convicted of rape viewed pornography. Some even claimed that it affected their "cognitive processes." This argument was unianimously rejected by all courts. So even if -- and that's a big IF -- homosexuality is demonstrated to influence cognitive thinking, the person is required not to act on the thoughts. God says in the Qur'an, Then He showed him what is wrong for him and what is right for him [91:8]

I forgot to mention, genetic linkages studies are extremley weak due to the sample size, and lack of validity and reliability vis-a-vis twin studies. And there are a lot of doubt about the methadology employed in polymorphic studies of population, especially when it comes to analyzing data. Therefore the conclusions are high doubtful. Lastly, one cannot be sure if the area of the genome linked is genomically active or not (I forgot the actual terms used; been two years since I left undergrad; something to do with methylation and acetylation...).
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birkah
07-21-2011, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan


Did they find these "certain regions of the genome" in gay adults or gay babies? Surely if one is "born gay", then they already have these genetic differences when they were babies, correct?

And I totally agree with your third paragraph analyses. Nurture plays a large part.
Can't do that with babies, since their sexual orientation is not known.
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Trumble
07-21-2011, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by birkah
Cognitive processes is a very vague term. Pornography can dominate one's cognitive processes. Most of the individuals arrested and convicted of rape viewed pornography. Some even claimed that it affected their "cognitive processes." This argument was unianimously rejected by all courts. So even if -- and that's a big IF -- homosexuality is demonstrated to influence cognitive thinking, the person is required not to act on the thoughts.
It's actually a perfectly specific term but it does admittedly cover an awful lot of ground. With that in mind, it makes little sense to consider the matter without establishing the probable extent to which behaviour is actually influenced. With there seemingly being no agreement among experts on that at present as you yourself have made clear, I don't see how you can justify your conclusion unless you are claiming that the person should be required not to act on their thoughts even if that is totally beyond their capacity. That makes no sense at all, to me at least.

Your attempted anology with rape and pornography fails. The Courts concerned did not reject 'the argument' in general terms, they rejected in each case the empirical claims of the defence that pornography had been sufficiently influential to make the defendants unable to exercise reasonable control over their behaviour. I wouldn't disagree that, in the case of pornography (there is no justification whatsoever for generalizing beyond that) that is always likely to be the case. However, were the empical evidence supportive the argument is conclusive. It is, in fact, frequently accepted in cases involving such things as involuntary intoxication by drugs, somnambulism and, of course, any psychiatric condition justifying the defendant being judged insane. All of those cases have more in common with any of the likely causes of homosexuality, be they the result of nature or nurture, as they are all involuntary.
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Tawangar
07-26-2011, 06:32 AM
Sorry for the late reply but I have been busy lately and this is one forum to which I don't come commonly. Kindly wait for a detailed answer.
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Ramadhan
07-26-2011, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by birkah
Can't do that with babies, since their sexual orientation is not known.

They could start collecting samples, and compare to the genetic samples 20 or 30 years later when babies become adults and have decided what sexuality they choose.
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birkah
07-27-2011, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan


They could start collecting samples, and compare to the genetic samples 20 or 30 years later when babies become adults and have decided what sexuality they choose.
The conclusion still wouldn't be absolute, since one has to rule out environment in order to fully conclude that it was in the genetics. Sexual orientation is without a doubt influenced and at times determined by the environment, as established by studies and is a logical conclusion. Rates of homosexuality tend to be much higher in prisons...

At the end, even IF it is established (Which I highly doubt) Allah SWT tells us: Then He showed him what is wrong for him and what is right for him [91:8]. The translation is very weak, but the words in the ayah make it clear that Allah SWT has programmed every individual and equipped them with the tools to KNOW what is right and wrong, and to also protect themselves from it. So we might have inclination in our genes, but that doesn't rule our that Allah has equipped us with mechanisms to deal with.
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Muhaba
07-27-2011, 01:35 PM
if homosexuality were a disease or related to genes, then you would have homosexuals in every place and time. however this is not the case. in most times and places, homosexuality is a rare case it at all it exists. only when the West gave freedom to homosexuality and started educating ppl that it was normal, that it has started to increase.

apart from being anti-god and anti-religion, the fact is that a homosexual relationship isn't an equal relationship as both partners are not on equal groubds in the relationship. just like a woman can't have a relationship with her boss since they aren't equal (the boss can make her do anything she wants because her job is in his hand so many laws have made it unlawful for a person to have a relationship with her boss). likewise a homosexual relationship shouldn't be allowed.

how is the relationship an unequal one? God made the relationship between a man and a woman balanced, so both partners are on equal grounds. however, since both partners in a homosexual relationship are the same psychologically, therefore, the relationship is unequal. i will leave the rest of the explanation for this up to the members here as i don't have time to write it now. i hope someone can explain it in a better way than the one i have in mind.
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Tyrion
07-27-2011, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by WRITER
if homosexuality were a disease or related to genes, then you would have homosexuals in every place and time. however this is not the case. in most times and places, homosexuality is a rare case it at all it exists. only when the West gave freedom to homosexuality and started educating ppl that it was normal, that it has started to increase.
Isn't this sort of a weak argument? The obvious response would be that depending on the culture and their tolerance for homosexuality, people just didn't come out very often. It doesn't really prove that there weren't homosexuals throughout history. I only bring this up because as Muslims, we should be a bit more careful with what arguments we put forward, especially for touchy issues like this. (And also, especially in a public forum... We don't need to worsen the public's opinion about us by defending our ideas with laughably weak arguments, right? :p:)

((Err, that last part was more of a general thought, and not necessarily directed at you. Hope you don't take it personally :p: ))
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Muhaba
07-31-2011, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

Isn't this sort of a weak argument? The obvious response would be that depending on the culture and their tolerance for homosexuality, people just didn't come out very often. It doesn't really prove that there weren't homosexuals throughout history. I only bring this up because as Muslims, we should be a bit more careful with what arguments we put forward, especially for touchy issues like this. (And also, especially in a public forum... We don't need to worsen the public's opinion about us by defending our ideas with laughably weak arguments, right? :p:)

((Err, that last part was more of a general thought, and not necessarily directed at you. Hope you don't take it personally :p: ))
i base what i say on the Quran. If homosexuality was something that was common amongst humans, then God wouldn't have punished the nation of Prophet Lut Alaihi asalaam because God would've known that it's either something natural, like there being different races, or that it was a disease that would be cured. God doesn't punish a person for a disease, for example when a person dies because of epilipsy, according to a hadith he is a shaheed although many times the person himself is responsible for his death. but because he isn't in control of himself, so he isn't blamed for it. likewise God wouldn't have blamed a person for homosexuality had it been a disease. but since the whole nation of Prophet Lut Alaihi assalaam was killed for this act, so it is obvious that people do it because they want to.
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Futuwwa
07-31-2011, 01:32 PM
Whether homosexuality is or isn't a disorder is a political question, not a scientific one.

[/thread]
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Tawangar
08-12-2011, 07:55 AM
Salamu alaikum.
Sorry but back after a long time. Been busy on other forums and my blog.:statisfie

Some statistics about the Homosexual lifestyle:

* One study reports 70% of homosexuals admitting to having sex only one time with over 50% of their partners (3)

* One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year (6). The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime

* Many homosexual sexual encounters occur while drunk, high on drugs, or in an orgy setting (7)

* Many homosexuals don't pay heed to warnings of their lifestyles: "Knowledge of health guidelines was quite high, but this knowledge had no relation to sexual behavior" (16)

* Homosexuals got homosexuality removed from the list of mental illnesses in the early 70s by storming the annual American Psychiatric Association (APA) conference on successive years. "Guerrilla theater tactics and more straight-forward shouting matches characterized their presence" (2). Since homosexuality has been removed from the APA list of mental illnesses, so has pedophilia (except when the adult feels "subjective distress") (27)

* Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (5). They make up only 1-2% of the population

* Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus (27)

* 73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization (13)

* 25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics (11)

* Of homosexuals questioned in one study reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film "The Castro", one minute stands) (3). Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to "cruisy areas" and have anonymous sex

* 78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs (20)

* Judge John Martaugh, chief magistrate of the New York City Criminal Court has said, "Homosexuals account for half the murders in large cities" (10)

* Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, "30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals" (10)

* 50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals (10)

* Dr. Daniel Capron, a practicing psychiatrist, says, "Homosexuality by definition is not healthy and wholesome. The homosexual person, at best, will be unhappier and more unfulfilled than the sexually normal person" (10). For other psychiatrists who believe that homosexuality is wrong, please see National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality

* It takes approximately $300,000 to take care of each AIDS victim, so thanks to the promiscuous lifestyle of homosexuals, medical insurance rates have been skyrocketing for all of us(10)

* Homosexuals were responsible for spreading AIDS in the United States, and then raised up violent groups like Act Up and Ground Zero to complain about it. Even today, homosexuals account for well over 50% of the AIDS cases in the United States, which is quite a large number considering that they account for only 1-2% of the population

* Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne (8)

* 37% of homosexuals engage in sadomasochism, which accounts for many accidental deaths. In San Francisco, classes were held to teach homosexuals how to not kill their partners during sadomasochism (8)

* 41% of homosexuals say they have had sex with strangers in public restrooms, 60% say they have had sex with strangers in bathhouses, and 64% of these encounters have involved the use of illegal drugs (8)

* Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries (8)

* The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 (8)

* The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 (8)

* Homosexuals are 100 times more likely to be murdered (usually by another homosexual) than the average person, 25 times more likely to commit suicide, and 19 times more likely to die in a traffic accident (8)

* 21% of lesbians die of murder, suicide or traffic accident, which is at a rate of 534 times higher than the number of white heterosexual females aged 25-44 who die of these things(8)

* 50% of the calls to a hotline to report "queer bashing" involved domestic violence (i.e., homosexuals beating up other homosexuals) (18)

* About 50% of the women on death row are lesbians (12).

Homosexuals prey on children.

* 33% of homosexuals ADMIT to minor/adult sex (7)

* There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is "SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States

* Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor (19)

* 73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age (9)

* Many homosexuals admit that they are pedophiles: "The love between men and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality" (22)

* Because homosexuals can't reproduce naturally, they resort to recruiting children. Homosexuals can be heard chanting "TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH, RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT" in their homosexual parades. A group called the "Lesbian Avengers" prides itself on trying to recruit young girls. They print "WE RECRUIT" on their literature. Some other homosexuals aren't as overt about this, but rather try to infiltrate society and get into positions where they will have access to the malleable minds of young children (e.g., the clergy, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, etc.) (8). See the DC Lesbian Avengers web page, and DC Lesbian Avengers Press Release, where they threaten to recruit little boys and girls. Also, see AFA Action Alert.

The homosexual agenda.

* The homosexual agenda includes desensitizing the public: "The first order of business is desensitization of the American public concerning gays and gay rights.....To desensitize the public is to help it view homosexuality with indifference instead of with keen emotion. Ideally, we would have straights register differences in sexual preferences the way they register different tastes for ice cream or sports games....At least in the beginning, we are seeking public desensitization and nothing more. We do not need and cannot expect a full 'appreciation' or 'understanding' of homosexuality from the average American. You can forget about trying to persuade the masses that homosexuality is a good thing. But if only you can get them to think that it is just another thing...then your battle for legal and social rights is virtually won" (25)

* Part of the homosexual agenda is to get the public to affirm their filthy lifestyle, as one homosexual admitted in the October 1987 homosexual rally on Washington: "We are no longer seeking just a right to privacy and a protection from wrong. We also have a right -- as heterosexual Americans already have -- to see government and society affirm our lives" (27)

* Part of the homosexual agenda is to turn people from Christianity: "The teaching that only male-female sexual activity within the bounds and constraints of marriage is the only acceptable form should be reason enough for any homosexual to denounce the Christian religion" (1)

* Homosexuals knowingly lied (and still lie) about the 10% figure (i.e., homosexuals make up 10% of the population). As Tom Stoddard (formerly of the Lambda Legal Defense Fund) said, "We used that figure when most gay people were entirely hidden to try to create an impression of our numerousness" (17).

The true number of homosexuals.

* The Kinsey study of 1948, which homosexuals often cite to say that 10% of the population is homosexual, actually says that only 4% of the population is EXCLUSIVELY homosexual. This study involved a disproportionate number of people who had been in jail for sex crimes (hardly a random sample of the population). Kinsey also did perverse studies involving young boys and pedophiles. Information on Kinsey

* Current research shows that the true percentage of homosexuals is in the 1-2% range (15,23,26,28). Consider how small this number is when compared to most of the numbers above.

Homosexuals aren't discriminated against in employment, so why should they be a protected class?

* The average yearly income of a homosexual is $55,430.00 (most of which is disposable because no children to take care of!). The average of the general population is $32,144.00. The average of blacks is $12,166.00 (24)

* 59.6% of homosexuals are college graduates. 18.0% of the general population are college graduates (24). Too bad they aren't smart enough to listen to God. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22)

* 49.0% of homosexuals hold professional/managerial positions. 15.9% of the general population hold such positions (24). Where's the job discrimination?

Sexual Orientation

• A phrase that has come up recently in this earth is "sexual orientation." This is a phrase made up by homosexuals to try to make themselves look less filthy than they really are. The purpose of the phrase is to take the spotlight from what these perverts do, and put it on the notion that they are just poor, mistreated people, who simply are attracted to members of the same sex - as if they aren't engaging in activity forbidden by God Almighty. "Sexual orientation," as used today, has nothing to do with sexual activity (yeah, right), but only refers to who or what a particular person is attracted to.

If you think that people of other "sexual orientations" are just fine, let's see what other "sexual orientations" you would necessarily have to accept as wholesome and pure. If you're not going to discriminate based on "sexual orientation", then you must not discriminate against any of the following. Bestiality, pedophile, necrophilia., exhibitionism, fetishism, frotteurism, masochism, sadism, transvestitism, voyeurism. If you discriminate against any of these, you're a hypocrite. These "sexual orientations" are generally known as "paraphilias", and are mental disorders - just like homosexuality used to be (29).



REFERENCES

(1) Advocate, 1985
(2) Bayer, R. Homosexuality and American Psychiatry
(3) Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978
(4) Cameron et. al. ISIS National Random Sexuality Survey. Nebraska Med. Journal, 1985, 70, pp. 292-299
(5) "Changes in Sexual Behavior and Incidence of Gonorrhea." Lancet, April 25, 1987
(6) Corey, L. and Holmes, K. "Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men." New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38
(7) Family Research Institute, Lincoln, NE
(8) Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA
(9) Jay and Young. The Gay Report. Summit Books, 1979, p. 275
(10) Kaifetz, J. "Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some," Post-Tribune, 18 December 1992
(11) Kus, R. "Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay America." Medical Journal of Homosexuality, 1987, 14(2), p. 254
(12) Lesbian News, January 1994
(13) Lief, H. Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, 1977, pp. 110-11
(14) Manlight, G. et. al. "Chronic Immune Stimulation By Sperm Alloantigens." J. American Med. Assn., 1984, 251(2), pp. 237-438
(15) Morton-Hunt Study for Playboy (16) MsKusick, L. et. al. "AIDS and Sexual Behavior Reported By Gay Men in San Francisco." Am. J. Pub. Health, 1985, 75, pp. 493-96
(17) Newsweek, February 1993
(18) Newsweek, 4 October 1993
(19) Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37
(20) Rueda, E. "The Homosexual Network." Old Greenwich, Conn., The Devin Adair Company, 1982, p. 53
(21) San Francisco AIDS Foundation, "Can We Talk." (22) San Francisco Sentinel, 27 March 1992
(23) Science Magazine, 18 July 1993, p. 322
(24) Statistical Abstract of the U.S., 1990
(25) "The Overhauling of Straight America." Guide Magazine. November, 1987
(26) United States Census Bureau (27) United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989
(28) University of Chicago's Nation Research Corp
(29) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition, American Psychiatric Association, 1994.
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Just_A_Girl13
08-12-2011, 09:25 AM
Asalaamu alaikum brother Tawangar,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I counted that 23 of your 29 sources are at least ten years outdated, many of them much more than that. If you believe that homosexuals are such a problem, perhaps being kind and understanding towards them would help to bring them to Islam, inshallah, better than discriminating against them and making false claims about them based on information that is anything but current. Arrogance is also a sin; it is not our place to judge homosexuals (or anyone else for that matter), but Allah (s.w.t.)'s. Jazak Allahu Khair :)

Peace and blessings be with you
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Trumble
08-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by WRITER
if homosexuality were a disease or related to genes, then you would have homosexuals in every place and time. however this is not the case. in most times and places, homosexuality is a rare case it at all it exists. only when the West gave freedom to homosexuality and started educating ppl that it was normal, that it has started to increase.
Er, what? It very much was and is the case, everywhere from ancient China and Greece to modern day Iran (whatever the leadership there might like to pretend).

Actually, attitudes to homosexuality have changed very little from ancient times. Homosexuality was a capital offence within the Roman army, for example, (for much the same reasons given in regard to ban in the US armed forces until recently), but had widespread acceptance outside it including widespread homosexual rape of the vanquished. Attitudes also varied from place to place and culture to culture even across fairly small geographic areas, as today; homosexuality was forbidden in Sparta yet the Theban Sacred Band (who were just as kick-ass as the Spartans) was comprised of pairs of male lovers. One difference, though, was the absence of the 'effeminate' stereotype perpetuated today - there were too many gay and bi 'role-models' likely to stick a spear through your gut without a moments hesitation if you offended them. Alexander the Great springs to mind.
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جوري
08-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
there were too many gay and bi 'role-models' likely to stick a spear through your gut without a moments hesitation if you offended them. Alexander the Great springs to mind.
:haha: that was funny.. and very below the belt.. sure they'd like to stick that indefatigable spear to many a willing and not so willing recipients ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for being the ever lively crusader for gay rights.. I am sure those head chopping Afghans would love more homos in the army.. perhaps the U.S and its poodles are just running out of regular ole effete chawbacons to send so they reach for the fruitcakes?.. it doesn't take much to be in the military now a days all you need is strong hatred and carpet bombing equipments!

best,
Reply

Abz2000
08-17-2011, 12:33 AM
i think growing up being told it's ok to ram it up the **** of another bloke plays the largest part
while the fbi give derogatory information about Islam to new recruits (see vales lilly's post),
and the mass media try to poison people's minds against their Muslim neighbours
they give it their best effort to convince kids in school that saying sodomy is wrong is somehow bigoted and wrong.
hell, they'll even give them detention or expel them for it!

Reply

Tawangar
08-18-2011, 06:43 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
i think growing up being told it's ok to ram it up the **** of another bloke plays the largest part
while the fbi give derogatory information about Islam to new recruits (see vales lilly's post),
and the mass media try to poison people's minds against their Muslim neighbours
they give it their best effort to convince kids in school that saying sodomy is wrong is somehow bigoted and wrong.
hell, they'll even give them detention or expel them for it!
ha ha ha ...good one.... :D
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
08-19-2011, 04:54 AM
Asalaam walekum,
If your muslim then you should be aware of the story of Lut AS, if you arent then start reading the quran, this is the best month for it. A severe punishment came on the people of Lut AS for being homosexuals. I am shocked to see muslims defend this sick and twisted action, believing they are giving dawah by saying its ok to be gay, as long as you listen to my dawah or maybe for the sake of political correctness. I personally would not harm homosexuals nor encourage anyone to do so, but will ask them to stay away from me and make sure I let them know how disgusted I am by their so called alternative lifestyle.
On my many visits to Pakistan especially the rural areas the villages where free mixing of the sexes is much more restricted, frustrated young boys and even older males turn to gay sex to fulfill their desires. Majority of them will not refrain from having sex with a female if presented with the opportunity or until they got married, and some will go on with this habit throughout most of their live. Having said that gay men will only want to have sex with other men, as is also proven from the people of Lot AS when the two angels came in the form of two handsome young men, the people of Lut AS wanted them for their desires, Lut AS told them go to your wives but they didnt listen and said we will be back for men.
We cant really say homosexuality is a mental disease as most gay men are of sound intelligence, its mentally corrupted individuals who cant find satisfaction in women and seek it with other men.
Homosexuality is sick and twisted, could easily lead to peadophilia, with gay men adopting children. It curbs the reproduction of humans, requires a very twisted mindset and is despised by any moral society.
Reply

Abz2000
08-21-2011, 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
We cant really say homosexuality is a mental disease as most gay men are of sound intelligence, its mentally corrupted individuals who cant find satisfaction in women and seek it with other men.
i think the term used to refer to people with twisted minds - especially in case of unnatural sex is P.E.R.V.E.R.T

it would be a term that was also used in england at one time - and sodomy was punishable by death, it was also illegal in many states in the us until bush came to power.
somehow they became "morally right" and decided their forefathers were bigoted.


i totally agree with you and am amazed to see many "Muslims" sidestepping the issue or even condoning out of a desire to be accepted by those whose minds have become deluded due to the massive amounts of corporate controlled tv they consume
or so as to be seen as "moderate"

so is incest going be legal soon as well (only a majority vote required- along with some sitcoms and soaps and documentaries) just because certain politicians like the idea, will people call those who see it as a perversion "bigoted"?
and will Muslims hide the verses in the Quran: Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers.....(Quran 4:23) out of fear of being seen as "fundamentalist" or "extreme"?


52. And you see those in whose hearts is a disease - how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying:
"We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us harm."
Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.
53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?" All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.
54. O you who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith,
soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,
- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters,
fighting in the way of Allah,

and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault.

That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
56. As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.
57. O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear Allah, if you have faith (indeed).
Quran 5:52-57


peace............to those who follow the guidance

Reply

Hamza Asadullah
08-21-2011, 01:52 AM
These next 10 days are too important to waste debating such topics so this thread is closed until after Ramadan.
Reply

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