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innocent
09-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Salam akaikum.
I am asking these questions because i am wanting to give dawah to work colleagues and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about first.

Jazak Allah khair
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Ramadhan
09-14-2011, 04:07 AM
:wa:

The short answer is no.

The bible as we know it today is a collection of books (the word "bible" came from latin "biblia" or books), and depending on which bibles you are talking about, they are different. For example, protestant bible contains 66 books and catholic bible contains 73 books, while ethiopian orthodox bible contain 81 books and eastern orthodox bible has 84 books.
You really have to know which bible you are going to discuss.

Now, those bibles consist of old testament and new testament. Old testament contains torah, prophets and writings. These were supposedly written by various prophets, rabbis, scribes, and the oldest extant manuscripts were greek translation from the fourth century.
New testament contains four canonical gospels - Luke, Matthew, Mark, John (accounts of sayings and actions of Jesus pbuh, similar to non-authenticated ahadeeth), acts of apostles, letters of paul, other letters, and book of revelation.
The four canonical gospels only made it into bible late second century or early third century. There were hundreds of other gospels that were hunted down and destroyed by roman christians which made it clear that jesus (pbuh) was messenger of God.
Letters of paul (or saul of Tarsus) dominate the NT, while sayings and actions of Jesus (pbuh) only account for as much as 18% of the NT. Letters of paul was written by paul who had never met jesus pbuh in his life and was actually an enemy of Jesus pbuh during Jesus time, but claimed to have met him in either dreams or stupor.
The current bibles took hundred of years to be developed and only made it as definitive list by council of trent in 1546.

Notwithstanding those other hundreds gospels and gnostic oral tradition that didn't make it into bible, current bible is very problematic on its own.
For example, In the 17th century Thomas Hobbes collected the current evidence to conclude outright that Moses could not have written the bulk of the Torah. Shortly afterwards the philosopher Baruch Spinoza published a unified critical analysis, arguing that the problematic passages were not isolated cases that could be explained away one by one, but pervasive throughout the five books, concluding that it was "clearer than the sun at noon that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses . . ."

Another example: the infamous passage that christians love to cite to tolerate sinners, the pericope adulterae (John 7:53 - 8:11) was never found in the oldest bible manuscripts (codex sinaiticus, vaticanus, alexandrinus) and was only written into vulgate bible. Most scholars now agree that it was never part of original text of john's gospels.

Right now, most christians do not even believe bible is the word of god, so who are we to argue with them? ;D

Another thing to remember, if christians believe bible is the word of god, that means the christian god either:
1. makes errors
2. lies
3. loves to confuse human beings
4. does not really know who he is or his own creation
5. into eroticism and scatology
as there are literally thousands of errors both factual and non, contradictions, etc in the bible.
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Abz2000
09-14-2011, 05:29 AM
Yet we must bear in mind that there is still information and prophecy remaining despite the continuous edits, which is why the prophet (pbuh) advised us to neither believe or disbelieve the unconfirmed things in the edited previous scriptures as we may disbelieve something true and accept something edited.

But when something stares you in the face and is obvious, you must use your intellect to decide if it is likely from man or God

eg:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand,
or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell,
save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 13

Would have taken a stretch of the imagination to just make up 2000 years ago,
Especially considering there was no digital currency, credit cards or even electricity.






According to research released today by the Institute for Grocery Distribution (IGD), a retail think-tank, almost one in ten teenagers and one in twenty adults are willing to have a microchip implanted to pay shop bills and help to prevent card or identity fraud and muggings.

A quick scan of the arm would connect immediately to bank details and payments could be made swiftly. Such microchips are already used in cats, dogs and horses. They are used in cattle and sheep so that consumers can trace their food from farm to plate and are also being used to help to combat drugs counterfeiting.

But now the retail industry is looking at body chips among a range of biometric payment methods, including fingerprint and iris recognition. So far the only example of a human body chip being used is at the VIP Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, where people wear bikinis and shorts and there is nowhere to carry wallets and purses.



BT's 'Soul Catcher 2025' Implants

A recent report has revealed that scientists working for British Telecom are currently developing a new microchip that will be ready for use in the year 2025. The microchips future-tech design will mean that, when implanted in the skull just behind the eye, it will be able to record a person's every thought, experience and sensation. Hence its name: Soul Catcher 2025.

"This is the end of death," Dr Chris Winter of British Telecom's Artificial life team claimed. He went on to explain that the implant will enable scientists to record other people's lives and play back their experiences on a computer. "By combining this information with a record of a person's genes," Dr Winter said, "we could recreate a person physically, emotionally and spiritually."

Me, I acknowledge openly what I can confirm to be the truth and show them the contradictions to prove that there are obvious edits, by asking them if they think God made the mistake - or man.

If they still say it's unedited - disregarding the facts shown, I ask them: which version, since no two manuscripts are identical. But I always try to be extremely respectful and never allow it to get heated, if they get over-excited, I just discuss similarities in order to make them consider.
Argue too much, people get defensive and close up like a clamshell.
And I try to talk on a plain level with no bias, but find it difficult when they try to use theology which doesn't make any sense in order to argue with reason.
That's where you know to tone it down since they think you're attacking them.
I try to bear in mind that my job is not to beat them in a debate - which is not too difficult- but to try and bring them the guidance, also bearing in mind that it is Almighty God who guides whom he will, it is not something I have to sell, but something I have to offer.
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Riana17
09-14-2011, 05:42 AM
Salam Alaikkum, may Allah reward you big for doing this.Amen

As Muslims we know that Bible is not pure words of our Creator.
Bible itself means collection of BOOKS.

However to avoid conflicts and rejections, we should not say it straight words not to hurt our Brothers&Sisters in Humanity, you can bring it in a way that we seriously follow many things mentioned in the Bible, like Circumsition, Fasting, prostating, greeting of peace, not eating pork and washing before praying. Remembering the Bible verse is good for their reference, a sincere Christians would check what you said when they reach home and inshallah it will open the doors for them if they are really looking for truth.

We should not separate the Bible from Quran instead I feel we should bring it in a way that Quran is extension of God's previous revelations to all the Prophets (peace be upon them all). Later on inshallah when they accept ISLAM, they will appreciate you much and they can tell within themselves that YES BIBLE IS NOT WORDS of GOD.
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Ramadhan
09-14-2011, 06:01 AM
I forgot to add these points by the time I posted mine:

As muslim we believe that Musa (as), Daud (as) and Eesa (as) were given taurah, zabur and injeel as Allah SWT tells us in the Qur'an.
However, Allah SWT also mentions that scribes/rabbis/priests changed and corrupted the message after the departures of the prophets (as) and the true unadulaterated message was lost.
Bible may still contain some traces of injeel, zabur and taurah, but those little traces are lost among many falsehoods as the scribes/rabbis/priests mix up the true message by the prophets (as). If they are confirmed by Qur'an, then they are from Allah SWT.
For example these passage from Deuteronomy:
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
It is clear that it is consistent with "La Ilaha Ilallaahu" (there is no God but Allah) and hence that deuteronomy passage still retains the true message.

However, when saul of tarsus in the NT wrote that Jesus (pbuh) was God who came down to earth to kill himself in order to erase the sins of humanity, that is clearly not from God.
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innocent
09-14-2011, 07:24 AM
But was the original old testament The word of God?
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Riana17
09-14-2011, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
But was the original old testament The word of God?
Salam Sister,

No one can say that there are other Words of Allah except the Holy Quran simply because only Quran proves it is the word of Allah for many reason, the oldest book still exist, and there is no error in Quran.
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innocent
09-14-2011, 07:32 AM
JazakAllah khair
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Ramadhan
09-14-2011, 08:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
But was the original old testament The word of God?
Again, which old testament?

Protestant's old testament contain 39 books while catholic old testament has 46 books and others (ethipian, eastern orthodox etc) have different number of books.
Also, which bible? the greek bible or the hebrew bible?

In addition, the torah (pentateuch) written in the old testament, most of which couldn't have been written by Musa (as) as proven by Thomas Hobbes in the 17th century and by most bible scholars today. For example, there are parts in the torah that recount the stories of Musa (as) death and burial. umm... do you think the dead Musa (pbuh) wrote those stories from his grave?

Most of old testament were written by scribes and rabbies, the most famous of which was Ezra who heavily edited the hebrew scriptures.

As I explained in my previous post, there are traces of word of God in bible (in the torah, psalm or gospels part) which can be confirmed by Qur'an such as that passage in Deuteronomy (deuteronomy is the last part of the pentateuch) about oneness of God and prohibition of worshipping idols. However, most of old testament were clearly and factually made up by those scribes and rabbis, deviating from the truth/message brought by the prophets (pbut).
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Abz2000
09-14-2011, 02:53 PM
yes, the Quran confirms there is some - but we must bear in mind that it may have been re-interpreted in translation:

29. Muhammad is the Messenger of God. and those who are with him are strong against disbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Almighty God and (His) Good Pleasure.
On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
This is their similitude in the Taurat;

and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade,
then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight.
As a result, it fills the disbelievers with rage at them.
Almighty God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
Quran 48:29

And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

ezekiel 8&9

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7

And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches
;
so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Mark 4:30-32

and for those who changed the word:

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!
- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2:79

46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places,
and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith.
If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper;
but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
47. O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you,
before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition,
and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
Quran 4:46-47

If they get offended by those verses - i just ask them if they think the mistakes were from God or from man,
when they inevitably say: man, they acknowledge that man has tampered with it.
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Who Am I?
09-14-2011, 04:24 PM
:sl:

I'm probably going to take some shots for this, but I will say it anyway.

I still have my Bible. I still read my Bible from time to time. I still think that there is some good information and good advice for living in the Bible. The Psalms and Proverbs in particular are good. I try to stick to the Old Testament and avoid the New Testament.

I also read my Qur'an. I still think that the Qur'an is the primary source, but I use the Bible as a backup source of inspiration.

*straps on body armor and helmet*

OK, fire away!
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Abz2000
09-14-2011, 05:54 PM
same here - even though i grew up in a Muslim family, i was far from faith, i read both books and found the Quran to hold the test, but that the bible still contains snippets of information that are inspiring, i was able to gain a wealth of knowledge and see it as productive even if only to understand the mind-frame of those who take it as unadulterated truth, there are stories of what some of the Prophets went through, i especially liked the book of Isaiah,
i called my first son Isaiah after confirming that he was indeed a prophet in Islam due to his fearless preaching and scathing condemnations of his own leaders - a true revolutionary.
the prominent historian Ibn Kathir also used any sources available - including the bible to tie in loose ends.

did you know that the story of zamzam is in the book of Genesis even though it is not in the Quran? though the "editors" changed some of the names and places around to suit their domination purposes, they called Isaac the firstborn and "only son" who was to be sacrificed - despite Ishmael being the older one, when i told someone who believed it, they said that it was due to Isaac being born of the married wife,
then when i explained that the 12 sons of Israel (jacob) are not all from married wives, making the children of Israel not the children of Israel, they went into a confused trance.
still - i believe in calling to the truth on the basis or agreement in preference to disagreement though i don't hesitate to point out mistakes when necessary.

say for instance:
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis 22:14

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exodus 6:2-3

.............Abraham was a long time before Moses.............right???.................

but to dismiss it all as totally false is a no-no once you see parts of the message confirming what is with you.

reading the first verses of the Quran should tell you that the message is continuous:

1. A.L.M.
2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

sifting through and trying not to totally accept or totally deny uncertain parts which can't be confirmed is difficult though,
but must be done by those who choose to delve through it since that's what the Prophet (pbuh) advised us.

look at my signature below...............
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Abz2000
09-14-2011, 06:18 PM
here's another example of amazing lack of mathematics on the part of the ones who put the genealogies together:





so...if Noah (pbuh) was born 1056 AA (after the creation of Adam) and died 2006 AA
and Abraham (pbuh) was born 1948 AA
..........Abraham (pbuh) was not only around but 58 years old when Noah (pbuh) passed away.
this does not make any sense since Noah (pbuh) cleansed the earth of idolatry......and Abraham (pbuh) was born into a time when idolatry was the status quo, practiced by the whole kingdom, even the ancestry had been pagans.

“And rehearse to them (something of) Ibrahim's story.
Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What do you worship?"
They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly devoted to them."
He said: "Do they hear you when you call (on them), "Or do they do you good or harm?"
They said: "Nay, but we found our forefathers so doing."
He said: "Do ye then see whom ye have been worshipping, "Ye and your fathers before you?"
For they are enemies to me;
not so the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds; "Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;
"Who provide me food and drink, "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me; "Who will cause me to die, and then brings me back to life;
"And Who, I hope, will forgive my faults on the Day of Judgment...
"O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;
"Grant me the power to convey the truth unto those who come after me; "Make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss;
"Forgive my father, for he is among those who gone astray;
"And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when all will be raised up from the dead;
The Day whereon neither wealth nor children will be of any use,
"But only he (will prosper) who comes to Allah with a heart at total peace with You.”
Quran (26:69-89)


here's another i found:
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Insaanah
09-14-2011, 06:27 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
However, most of old testament were clearly and factually made up by those scribes and rabbis, deviating from the truth/message brought by the prophets (pbut).
"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?"

(Jeremiah 8:8-9)

Either this verse is from the original text stating the truth, and the Bible has been altered, OR this verse is not from the original text, i.e. someone has written that verse in the book themselves, and the Bible has thus been altered.
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Who Am I?
09-14-2011, 06:40 PM
:sl:

I actually talked to an older brother at masjid last night about this. Before the time of the Messenger (saws), people followed the example of the latest prophet. Before Muhammad (saws), it would have been Jesus (pbuh). before Jesus, it would have been someone else, and so on.

Early Christianity was in fact Islam. The two were identical. It wasn't until a few hundred years after the death of Jesus that Christianity took its modern form. All of the Old Testament prophets preached the message of Islam.
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Abz2000
09-14-2011, 07:26 PM
the council of nicea - after the roman emperor decided to "accept" the faith,
most of the people were accepting it and the emperor attempting to clamp down would have meant revolution at home.
nero tried by staging a false flag arson attack and blaming it on the believers - but failed.
the whole thing was turned into something unrecognisable by the nicean council,
in my opinion paganism just made a compromise in order to survive the tide of faith that was engulfing it.
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Who Am I?
09-14-2011, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
the council of nicea - after the roman emperor decided to "accept" the faith,
most of the people were accepting it and the emperor attempting to clamp down would have meant revolution at home.
nero tried by staging a false flag arson attack and blaming it on the believers - but failed.
the whole thing was turned into something unrecognisable by the nicean council,
in my opinion paganism just made a compromise in order to survive the tide of faith that was engulfing it.
:sl:

The Catholic Church is in my opinion a pagan order. At the very least, they are idolators. They worship Mary and the Saints and pray to their statues as well as a statue of Jesus on the Cross.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2011, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Either this verse is from the original text stating the truth, and the Bible has been altered, OR this verse is not from the original text, i.e. someone has written that verse in the book themselves, and the Bible has thus been altered.
Exactly.

I always wondered when a christian read that verse in the bible, surely they must come to conclusion that bible has been altered.
That is, if they use their god-given capacity to think and ponder.
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Abz2000
09-15-2011, 02:46 AM
That is, if they use their god-given capacity to think and ponder.
they get called heretics and doubters if they ponder too much, they are mostly expected to let the clergy "interpret" it for them,
Sad, since there's so much to learn from exercising one's own brain
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Who Am I?
09-15-2011, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
they get called heretics and doubters if they ponder too much, they are mostly expected to let the clergy "interpret" it for them,
Sad, since there's so much to learn from exercising one's own brain
:sl:

Remember this: thoughout most of the Middle Ages, the Bible was only available in Latin. So only the educated nobility and clergy could actually read it for themselves (and the version they read was of course edited and sanctioned by Rome).

The commoners could not read or speak Latin, so they had to rely on what their local priest told them that the Bible said.

I don't think I have to point out the flaws in this system. But then, the clergy and nobility wanted it that way, because they wanted to hold onto their power.
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Abz2000
09-15-2011, 05:54 PM
this was one of my favourites, spoke volumes on their tendencies:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first thatwhich is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the ****ation of hell?
Matthew 23
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Salahudeen
09-15-2011, 06:28 PM
This thread MIGHT HELP YOU!! http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...kes-bible.html
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Eric H
09-15-2011, 10:28 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I need the freedom to strive to be a better Christian, you need the freedom to strive to be better Muslims. We need to pray for each other that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences and imperfections.

In the spirit of searching for One God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

Eric
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Ramadhan
09-16-2011, 01:47 AM
I think first and foremost is freedom to find the truth, as the truth is clear from falsehoods.

Therefore, scriptural analyses and comparisons is very important to ascertain which one is pure and which one is mixed with falsehoods.

How can we expect to be a better person as God intended if we follow falsehoods?
How can we attain salvation if we follow falsehoods?

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Eric H
09-16-2011, 03:18 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

We have our beliefs, only God knows the full truth; God chooses whom he wills. It seems that God has chosen millions of people who have lived and died a Muslim; God has chosen millions who have lived and died a Christian.

We search for justice for all people, and I pray that all people will find salvation, despite all our diffeences.

In the spirit of praying for justice and mercy for all people

Eric
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Ramadhan
09-16-2011, 03:43 AM
:sl: Eric,

It is true that nothing happens if not for God's will and that's true only God knows the full truth.

However, from your description of God, that also means God is unjust because it means humans do not have free will and God has already chosen who would be thrown to hell and paradise.

If your hypotheses is true, then atheists are also not wrong because they truly believe there is no God. But if God throw athiests to hell, then God is being unjust. Is that a christian belief?
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Eric H
09-16-2011, 04:07 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

I Believe that it is also in the Holy Qu’ran that Allah chooses whom he wills, Allah hardens the hearts of whom he wills.

I have family and friends who are agnostic and aetheist, I hope and pray that they will also find salvation. If I achieve salvation it will not be through my efforts, it will be through the grace and mercy of God, I pray for this grace and mercy for all people.

In the spirit of praying for peace and justice in our time

Eric
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Ramadhan
09-16-2011, 04:34 AM
Salam Eric,

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I Believe that it is also in the Holy Qu’ran that Allah chooses whom he wills, Allah hardens the hearts of whom he wills.
It is true, but at the same time, there are also numerous ayats that explains we are commanded by Allah SWT to seek the truth and to hold fast to the truth. Allah hardens the heart of those who keep shunning truth and choose falsehoods instead. And Allah SWT give hidayah to those who seek the truth.

Now when someone has found that the scriptures they have been following have been proven beyonf any doubt whatsoever to have been changed, but still stubbornly keep following them and they are given evidence that there is a scripture that is pure, preserved, without any error, but reject it, do you think it is fair that God hardens their heart?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I have family and friends who are agnostic and aetheist, I hope and pray that they will also find salvation. If I achieve salvation it will not be through my efforts, it will be through the grace and mercy of God, I pray for this grace and mercy for all people.
It is also true that hidayah comes from Allah SWT only and one way to seek this hidayah is to ask Allah SWT directly.
Asking and praying to a creation for salvation will never grant you anything good, in this world or hereafter.

and May Allah SWT give you hidayah and guidance to the straight path. ameen.
Reply

Abz2000
09-16-2011, 10:25 AM
Great info brother Ramadan, aren't you being a teeny bit sharp?-though i do agree the message should be made clear - we can try to say it in a softer way :embarrass so as not to make people defensive lol.

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong: but say "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which (actually) came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
Quran 29:46

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
We have our beliefs, only God knows the full truth; God chooses whom he wills. It seems that God has chosen millions of people who have lived and died a Muslim; God has chosen millions who have lived and died a Christian.

We search for justice for all people, and I pray that all people will find salvation, despite all our diffeences.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew7:21

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I need the freedom to strive to be a better Christian, you need the freedom to strive to be better Muslims. We need to pray for each other that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences and imperfections.
The importance of seeking the truth:
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:31-32



Jesus the servant:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord;
neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him......
......Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me;
and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
John 13:16&20

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
........He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:3-5&11

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!
58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.
59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.
61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
62. Let not the Satan hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.
Quran 43

Let there be no compulsion in Faith: Truth stands out clear from Error:
whoever rejects evil and believes in Almighty God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks.
And God heareth and knoweth all things.
Quran 2:256

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Almighty God;
that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah."

If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
Quran 3:64
Reply

Ramadhan
09-16-2011, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
Great info brother Ramadan, aren't you being a teeny bit sharp?-though i do agree the message should be made clear - we can try to say it in a softer way so as not to make people defensive lol.
I specifically tried to soften my tone because I was talking to br. Eric, who I know is a kind and very sincere person. But I guess I still come off as being a bit strong :D
Reply

Amigo
09-17-2011, 09:14 PM
Hello,

Remember that men themselves can't communicate with words alone, words are too small to contain their message, what about God?
Reply

جوري
09-17-2011, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Remember that men themselves can't communicate with words alone, words are too small to contain their message, what about God?
Even smaller if said God commits suicide and especially so if he couldn't convey his message to his hand chosen apostles ..
Reply

Amigo
09-17-2011, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Even smaller if said God commits suicide and especially so if he couldn't convey his message to his hand chosen apostles ..
Yes. And that's a good illustration of what happens when words are considered beyond their capacity.
Reply

جوري
09-17-2011, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Yes. And that's a good illustration of what happens when words are considered beyond their capacity.
words & gods unfortunately .. a perishing god has even lesser staying power than altered erroneous words .. when both are present then what a doozy ^o)

best,
Reply

Abz2000
09-18-2011, 12:53 AM
It wasn't suicide, and he wasn't God, i know you are referring to erroneous beliefs, but must be clarified.
(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;-
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
Quran Chapter 4

i dunno why i'm posting this - but i couldn't help laughing
Reply

جوري
09-18-2011, 01:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
It wasn't suicide, and he wasn't God, i know you are referring to erroneous beliefs, but must be clarified.
It's obvious that they worship a middle eastern man who isn't god..
Jesus (p) is innocent of what they ascribe unto him.. but I was highlighting how their beliefs come across to those who reason..

:w:
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Ramadhan
09-18-2011, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Remember that men themselves can't communicate with words alone, words are too small to contain their message, what about God?
I thought you believe jesus is God, and didn't he communicate in words?
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Ramadhan
09-18-2011, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
It wasn't suicide, and he wasn't God, i know you are referring to erroneous beliefs, but must be clarified.
I do agree with sis. bluebell.

A suicidal god was a logical conclusion to christians erroneous belief.

let me write it simple chart:

Christians believe jesus is god
god is omniscient (he knows absolutely everything past present future), and hence jesus is omniscient
god is also all powerful and therefore jesus is also all powerful
and hence jesus knew he was going to get killed and he didn't prevent it anyway even though he had the power.
So he let himself be killed. so god let himself be killed.

If that is not a definition of suicide, I don't know what is.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-18-2011, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
:sl:
I still have my Bible. I still read my Bible from time to time. I still think that there is some good information and good advice for living in the Bible. The Psalms and Proverbs in particular are good. I try to stick to the Old Testament and avoid the New Testament.
I still have mine from college days with a lot of underlining. I too sometimes read in it, but not for inspiration or for guidance. I look for similarities with the Quran and I read to better understand the book of the Christians. I read in the 1st 2 chapters of Galatians about Paul's claim to have received revelation directly from God and the obvious conflict with the actual disciples of Jesus. I read in Acts where Jesus is twice referred to as the 'servant of God'.
I also read my Qur'an. I still think that the Qur'an is the primary source, but I use the Bible as a backup source of inspiration.
I think that the Nation of Islam does this as well.

Regarding its use for inspiration, it is hard to distinguish the man-made portions from what could be actual revelation preserved to one degree or another. It seems that the portions where Jesus foretold the coming of the 'Comforter/Counselor' were prophecies about Muhammad (saaws) and those about false prophets as wolves in sheep clothing foretold Paul entering the scene.
*straps on body armor and helmet*

OK, fire away!
If you read in the Bible, I encourage you to use the Quran as the 'gold standard' for Divine revelation.
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Abz2000
09-18-2011, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
It seems that the portions where Jesus foretold the coming of the 'Comforter/Counselor' were prophecies about Muhammad (saaws),

and those about false prophets as wolves in sheep clothing foretold Paul entering the scene.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7


the beginning account of Paul's "enlightenment":

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
—Acts 9:7, King James Version

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
—Acts 22:9, King James Version

Reply

Abz2000
09-18-2011, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
and hence jesus knew he was going to get killed and he didn't prevent it anyway even though he had the power.
So he let himself be killed. so god let himself be killed.

If that is not a definition of suicide, I don't know what is.
i'm not sure there - maybe Jesus (pbuh) knew he was being betrayed - and only Allah knew how He would actually raise him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) played along for a political purpose, their power was low, and he needed more hearts and minds than weapons.
even if he (pbuh) was assuming they may kill him (he was human - although a messenger),

Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you.
I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."
Quran 46:9

he may have decided that it was the best course of action - it would not be suicide - it would be exposing who the real criminals are. a murder which would take the world by storm, however Allah did it in another way

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve;
and I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you in those matters wherein ye dispute.
Quran 3:55

as can be seen in the story of the boy and the king - which i believe is a parable of certain events which are yet to come due to the fact that no clear historical event as such has yet happened - the boy finally allows the king to murder him, only by telling him the method was the king able to kill him, but the killing converted the whole nation due to finding out that they couldn't do it without Allah's permission and it also overcame their fear of death.
it was the greatest act of dawah, and the boy became a witness/martyr - same word in arabic.
''The boy used to treat the people suffering from congenital blindness, leprosy, and other diseases.
Other ahadith tell us that Dajjal will offer to people a choice between a fire and a river.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIvIgh34WuU
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Ramadhan
09-18-2011, 05:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
i'm not sure there - maybe Jesus (pbuh) knew he was being betrayed - and only Allah knew how He would actually raise him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) played along for a political purpose, their power was low, and he needed more hearts and minds than weapons.
even if he (pbuh) was assuming they may kill him (he was human - although a messenger),

he may have decided that it was the best course of action - it would not be suicide - it would be exposing who the real criminals are. a murder which would take the world by storm, however Allah did it in another way
I don't think you get it yet.

Sis. bluebell and I were not talking about muslims belief.

We are pointing out the clear error of christian belief, where they believe that Eesa (as) was God. and since God is omniscient and omnipotent, the fact that christians believe that eesa (as) aka God was willingly take out his own life can only mean that God was suicidal.
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Abz2000
09-18-2011, 06:02 AM
Yes brother, you're correct, and I said that:
....i know you are referring to erroneous beliefs, but must be clarified.
but was I was setting straight was that even the erroneous belief didn't say suicide, and that wouldn't be suicide in that sense in Islam either, as can be seen in the lesson of the boy and the king.
It is murderers exposed in order to wake people up from their slumber,
Though I will clarify that it is a ridiculous notion to say Almighty God was murdered - by Romans and Jews!
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Ramadhan
09-18-2011, 06:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
but was I was setting straight was that even the erroneous belief didn't say suicide, and that wouldn't be suicide in that sense in Islam either, as can be seen in the lesson of the boy and the king.
It is murderers exposed in order to wake people up from their slumber,
Of course christians would never say that God committed suicide, but that is clearly what it reduces to, no?

Please tell me if I made any error in the logical deduction:

Jesus is God.
God is omniscient and omnipotent.
God knew he was going to get killed.
God let himself get killed.
Hence God committed suicide.

There is fallacy when you make an analogy with the story of "the boy and the king". In that story, the boy believed 100% in the protection from Allah SWT and did NOT want to be killed so he asked Allah for help and protection and so Allah protected him.
Now, contrast that with christians belief that Jesus is God, and hence Jesus must have known he would have been killed, and christians believe that Jesus was willingly to be killed, and hence God was willingly to be killed and hence the suicidal God.

format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
Though I will clarify that it is a ridiculous notion to say Almighty God was murdered - by Romans and Jews!
Anyone with a working single brain cell would also find it ridiculous that God is murdered at all. But that is what christians believe, they follow the way of their ancestors because they find it convenient, not much different from the makkan quraysh actually.

I will post this Qur'an ayat so christians like brother Eric who believes that he is a christians because of God's will can ponder and think:

Sahih International:
Those who associated with Allah will say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have associated [anything] and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying." (QS. 6:148)
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Abz2000
09-18-2011, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
There is fallacy when you make an analogy with the story of "the boy and the king". In that story, the boy believed 100% in the protection from Allah SWT and did NOT want to be killed so he asked Allah for help and protection and so Allah protected him.
when the king was about to dispatch the third set of disposable soldiers, the boy said - don't bother, you won't be able to - and he told him how it would be possible, and the king committed the murder. the boy was NOT trying to die but to gain his freedom and the freedom of the people around him, the king was unrelenting so the boy told him how to do it.
it was murder - not suicide.

to brother Eric, with all due respect:
17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:
do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Isaiah 29

please refer to the nicene creed and tell me if it's based on any clear authority from the bible - or whether it is the precept of men.
peace
Reply

YusufNoor
09-18-2011, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
Salam akaikum.
I am asking these questions because i am wanting to give dawah to work colleagues and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about first.

Jazak Allah khair
:sl:

here's what we believe that we know about the Jewish Bible:

5 books of the Torah - the 5 books of the torah were edited by Ezra. they consisted of stories from the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Deuteronomy is believed to have been written by Jeremiah/Baruch ben Nariah; and the "Priestly" additions were done around the times of the Judaic Kings Josiah and Hezekiah with further revision by Ezra.

the Prophets - from Deuteronomy thru II Kings, authorship goes back to the team of Jeremiah and Baruch. Twelve Minor Prophets—published by the Men of the Great Assembly in one scroll. Ezra was the head of the Great Assembly.

the Writings had various authors, David, Solomon, Moses, Ezra and Nehemiah.

the New Testament. authorship of 7 of the letters of Paul is certain, the rest is uncertain.

that is an overall historical viewpoint of scholarship.

:wa:
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Karl
09-19-2011, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by King of Nines
:sl:

The Catholic Church is in my opinion a pagan order. At the very least, they are idolators. They worship Mary and the Saints and pray to their statues as well as a statue of Jesus on the Cross.
Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah and throw stones at pillers that represent devils as part of the Hajj and have their Holy towns and places like the Hindus, Christians etc. I think Paganism is in all the worlds religions to some degree. One of the ancient kings of Egypt wanted to go monotheistic and only have temples to Amon Ra as he thought the number of Gods and temples were over the top. But there was an uproar by all the priests making a living from all these temples so the King backed off. Monotheism didn't sell and the first rule of a leader is "keep the mob happy".
So if God is greatest why do you need all the other stuff? The Majids the symbolism the Holy places?
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Ramadhan
09-19-2011, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah
What is this black stone you are talking about? I am a muslim and I've been to Makkah (or masjidil haram if we want to be more precise), and I never worshiped any black stone nor did I see any muslim worship any black stone and I saw hundreds of thousands of muslims at ANY given time.

Karl, clearly you are either a new muslim who refuses to learn anything about Islam aside from what you read in anti-Islam hate sites, or you are not a muslim but pretending to be one for God knows why.
I am basing this not on just this post, but from many of your previous posts where you have shown not only lack of basic knowledge about Islam but also against what Allah has said in the Qur'an such as in this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1461833
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Aprender
09-19-2011, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah and throw stones at pillers that represent devils as part of the Hajj and have their Holy towns and places like the Hindus, Christians etc. I think Paganism is in all the worlds religions to some degree. One of the ancient kings of Egypt wanted to go monotheistic and only have temples to Amon Ra as he thought the number of Gods and temples were over the top. But there was an uproar by all the priests making a living from all these temples so the King backed off. Monotheism didn't sell and the first rule of a leader is "keep the mob happy".
So if God is greatest why do you need all the other stuff? The Majids the symbolism the Holy places?
Pardon me for my words but what you wrote here is very foolish to put it lightly. How can you say this and still call yourself a Muslim?
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Abz2000
09-19-2011, 03:29 AM
Narrated ‘Abis bin Rabia:
‘Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said,
"No doubt, I know that you are a stone AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE.
Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667)

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam that his father said:
"I saw ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and he then said, (to it)
Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you, (stone) I WOULD NOT HAVE KISSED YOU.’" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 679)

Muslims neither ask of the stone - nor pray to it.
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Karl
09-19-2011, 03:32 AM
The black stone is the Kaba.
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جوري
09-19-2011, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
The black stone is the Kaba.
No.. it isn't..
this is the black stone



and this is the kaaba

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MustafaMc
09-19-2011, 03:48 AM
Surely, you jest. The black stone is not the Kaaba, but rather a small portion thereof encased in silver.
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MustafaMc
09-19-2011, 03:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
No.. it isn't..
this is the black stone



and this is the kaaba

Yes, you are of course correct. I thought all Muslims knew this and have the same respect for it that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) had.
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Abz2000
09-19-2011, 04:15 AM
i liked one of karl's threads and loved one of his fiery comments! - so i will think the best of him and put it down to a mistake,
also brother karl - the Ka'bah is not prayed to - it is a prayer direction,
a question you may get from someone who doesn't believe may be: why this prayer direction?
Answer (without getting into the commands) : why any other? and the same question could be asked of any choice they make.........it's just a prayer direction which God directed us to - it was Jerusalem before that verse of revelation came down.
or should we all pray in different directions? imagine all the bumping heads in the mosque.
we hold onto the door and ask of Almighty God due to the fact that Abraham (pbuh) built it as the first ever dedicated site to the worship of the Almighty.
and God accepted it.
it's now "His House" - though he doesn't live in it, even the galaxy is too tiny, it's an offer of dedicated service which He accepted, making it sacred - even the Ka'bah is broken down and rebuilt when it falls apart. and it's even been re-sized (used to be rectangular incorporating the semi-circle wall according to a narration is sahih Muslim).

In the Targhib wa’ l-Tarhib of Imam al-Mundhiri, 3/276 it has the following hadith from `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As (Allah be well pleased with him) that he said:“I saw the Messenger of Allah (saw) performing tawaf around the Holy Ka`ba saying to it:
‘how pure and good you are! how pure and good your fragrance is!
how great and exalted you are! and how great and exalted your sanctity is!
But by Him in Whose hand is Muhammad’s soul,
the sanctity of a believer’s blood and property in the sight of Allah is greater than your sanctity!’
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Ramadhan
09-19-2011, 04:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
The black stone is the Kaba.
HUH???

since when is the black stone ka'ba?

Seriously karl, where do you obtain information about Islam?
http://www.IkknownothingaboutIslambu...reditIslam.com ?
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Ramadhan
09-19-2011, 04:29 AM
Any muslim would know that Ka'ba is never black.

Seriously Karl, if you really are a muslim, then learn at least how to pray, and read the qur'an and learn some basic knowledge.
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Amigo
09-19-2011, 09:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I thought you believe jesus is God, and didn't he communicate in words?
He communicated in far more than words. In facts, words were his least method of communication. The Gospel is not his words (only) but him in his full person and life.

Considering how the discussion has turned out, even looking like it is going beyond the subject, it is comfirming again what happens when words are not considered to their right capacity or potential.
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Ramadhan
09-19-2011, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
He communicated in far more than words. In facts, words were his least method of communication. The Gospel is not his words (only) but him in his full person and life.
Poor Jesus (pbuh)
First, christians made a claim that He is God and worship him as God.
and then now Christians claim he was not effective with words.
Is that why bible is full of made up words by Saul and other rabbis/priests/scribes and then falsely attributed them to Jesus (pbuh)?
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Pygoscelis
09-19-2011, 05:02 PM
Is the rock similar to the crucifix that catholics put in their homes? Not something to be worshiped, but something to focus on and channel worship to God?
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Abz2000
09-19-2011, 05:14 PM
Nah, it clearly says worship Jesus and Mary (pbut) in books,
This rock is different it is a specially chosen corner stone which is surrounded in mystery, some say it was sent down as an asteroid,
Others say angels carried it down when Abraham sent ishmael to get a stone,
Ishmael came back and found a peculiar stone already put in place.
It is neither capable of thinking, nor interceding.
But the prophet (pbuh) would kiss it on his rounds- so we do.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Matthew 21
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Ramadhan
09-20-2011, 01:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Is the rock similar to the crucifix that catholics put in their homes? Not something to be worshiped, but something to focus on and channel worship to God?
What rock?
Ka'bah or hajar aswat?

It just seems non-muslims keep confusing hajar aswat (the black stones) which are only very small stones as cornerstone of Ka'bah with ka'bah itself which is a rectangular building in the centre of masjidil haram in makka.

And to answer your question: Not at all.

I don't think of ka'bah and/or the black stones whenever I perform 5 times daily shalah. And this also goes with every other muslim.
When a muslim perform shalah, we think as if we are in front of Allah while reciting the surah and supplications, that's where our focus is.
And even when I was in masjidil haram literally RIGHT IN FRONT of ka'bah (like inches away) and the black stone, I did not think of it when I was doing tawaf and shalah, all I thought of was how lowly and yet fortunate I was to be able to worship Allah.

And if the catholics focus on the crucifix, then the crucifix become their God.
Why not directly focus your worship to God?
Reply

MustafaMc
09-20-2011, 02:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
And even when I was in masjidil haram literally RIGHT IN FRONT of ka'bah (like inches away) and the black stone, I did not think of it when I was doing tawaf and shalah, all I thought of was how lowly and yet fortunate I was to be able to worship Allah.
You are exactly correct. It was the same for me during hajj last year. Even though I once had the chance to offer salah only a few rows from the Kaaba, my visual focus was on the spot where where my forehead touched the ground. However, it was a surreal other-world experience for me to pray in Masjid Al-Haram and I felt as if I was standing in the presence of Allah (swt) much more so than when I pray at home or even when I prayed in Masjid An-Nabawi.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-20-2011, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You are exactly correct. It was the same for me during hajj last year. Even though I once had the chance to offer salah only a few rows from the Kaaba, my visual focus was on the spot where where my forehead touched the ground. However, it was a surreal other-world experience for me to pray in Masjid Al-Haram and I felt as if I was standing in the presence of Allah (swt) much more so than when I pray at home or even when I prayed in Masjid An-Nabawi.
This is also exactly how I felt. The feelings were so overwhelming. Crying was an insufficient outlet for it.
Reply

Abz2000
09-20-2011, 03:35 AM
it did didn't it - it actually felt like a powerful presence - despite my being far from Islam and my mum taking me to sort my act out.
the word which best describes my feelings in Makkah is MAGNIFICENCE - a small individual before God.
and in Medina - peace and tranquility, a part of a loving brotherhood.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-20-2011, 03:53 AM
I agree about feeling a 'part of a loving brotherhood' as I felt that in both Medina and Mecca. At first, I never felt so alone, being in a foreign country and looking so very different from everyone else. Then after a bit I felt completely at ease and a part of a gigantic family after talking to, and feeling accepted by, brothers from all over the world.
Reply

Aprender
09-20-2011, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I agree about feeling a 'part of a loving brotherhood' as I felt that in both Medina and Mecca. At first, I never felt so alone, being in a foreign country and looking so very different from everyone else. Then after a bit I felt completely at ease and a part of a gigantic family after talking to, and feeling accepted by, brothers from all over the world.
Amazing. May Allah bless you. Ameeen.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-20-2011, 11:15 AM
If the Bible is the word of God, why would it have to guess, suppose, or assume who the father of Jesus was as in Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli"? If Jesus was born to the virgin Mary without sexual relations, why trace his genealogy through Joseph as in Matthew 1:16 "and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."?

Are not these two simple ayah more befitting of the majesty of Allah (swt) and evidence of the Quran as the word of Allah (swt) Quran 3:59 "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be'. And he was." as well as Quran 66:12 "And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)."?

The Quran even addresses the charge of Jesus being the illegitimate son of Mary through fornication made by the Jews even today as in Quran 19:27-34 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
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Abz2000
09-20-2011, 10:55 PM
"That they rejected Faith;
That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.
But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
... And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them."
(Quran, 4:156-159)
Reply

Amigo
09-21-2011, 10:52 AM
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative. At the end there is a quote of a detailed ancient Christian's (Thomas Aquina) comment on Muslim critiques of Christian claim of generation in God. It also explain more about the word of God according to Christianity.

Any simple, humble, and honest mind can see that the Bible is a sacred memorial document. Christianity is not founded on the Bible: Christianity existed before the compilation of the Bible, it existed before any document of the New Testament was written down. The Bible and its books and its many authors is like a family album. A family album is sacred for the family. It contains precious shared times, memories, stories, joys, sorrows, struggles, etc. But the family is not founded on the album. And you can not understand the family just by looking at the album. The album is not meant to explain the family or its life, it is meant to keep the sacred memories of the family life. Family members can go to it to reconnect and deepen their intimacy and love for each other as well as their ancestors. But strangers can be easly lost and rightly lost. For if it is with holyness of spirit that they try to understand the family in the album, they would politely ask, and they would be guided to the truth.
Strangers can give all kinds of interpretations to the pictures they see. Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album.
It is the samething with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.
Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
It is not like the Quran. You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it. But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-21-2011, 02:41 PM
Ah, finally a christian who admits that bible is only for christians while Qur'an is for humanity.
Reply

YusufNoor
09-21-2011, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative. At the end there is a quote of a detailed ancient Christian's (Thomas Aquina) comment on Muslim critiques of Christian claim of generation in God. It also explain more about the word of God according to Christianity.

Any simple, humble, and honest mind can see that the Bible is a sacred memorial document. Christianity is not founded on the Bible: Christianity existed before the compilation of the Bible, it existed before any document of the New Testament was written down. The Bible and its books and its many authors is like a family album. A family album is sacred for the family. It contains precious shared times, memories, stories, joys, sorrows, struggles, etc. But the family is not founded on the album. And you can not understand the family just by looking at the album. The album is not meant to explain the family or its life, it is meant to keep the sacred memories of the family life. Family members can go to it to reconnect and deepen their intimacy and love for each other as well as their ancestors. But strangers can be easly lost and rightly lost. For if it is with holyness of spirit that they try to understand the family in the album, they would politely ask, and they would be guided to the truth.
Strangers can give all kinds of interpretations to the pictures they see. Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album.
It is the samething with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.

um, which bible?

Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
It is not like the Quran.

we agree!

You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it.

Alhamdulillah, this is true!

But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.

so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?

it makes MUCH MORE sense for the Creator God to give people a book which they CAN understand in order to lead them to the truth, because THAT is what a God Infinite Wisdom would do! and thus He has!

good day
Reply

Who Am I?
09-21-2011, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?

it makes MUCH MORE sense for the Creator God to give people a book which they CAN understand in order to lead them to the truth, because THAT is what a God Infinite Wisdom would do! and thus He has!

good day
:sl:

I was just going to say this, but brother Yusuf here beat me to it. I am disappointed and impressed at the same time, brother. ;D

Although I do disagree with what Amigo said. I read the Bible before I was a Christian and understood it, and I read it now still as a Muslim, and I can still understand it.
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Amigo
09-21-2011, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?
No I am saying that God gave people much more than a book. They are capable of coming to him without a book or any other human made thing or invention. The same divine power that creates people also saves them. No need of a book to be created and no need of a book to be saved. For the Church, sacred books are for celebration of the Faith, celebrating something which already exist.
God is self-sufficient, He does not need human invention (artificial things) to do his work of salvation.
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Eric H
09-21-2011, 09:25 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

The Bible is written at many different levels, there are simple passages for children to understand; right up to profound passages that keep you searching and striving.

I have read the Bible a number of times, and beyond a doubt, I believe it to be the inspired word of God, written in a way that I might achieve salvation by trying to live by its teachings.

Blessings and peace be with you all,

Eric
Reply

Abz2000
09-22-2011, 12:58 AM
I too read it and have a deep respect for it due to the words of the prophets and the prophecies it contains,
I also agree that it has different levels,
The truth in it is at the highest level,
And the changes made by men for - God knows who - because even children would see through the flaws.

Joseph is not the physical father of Jesus but they wrote it along with a genealogy?
And then he's the spiritual father..........
I thought they told you that was Almighty God? (astaghfirullah).
So God is the spiritual father and Joseph is the spiritual father,
And Maryam (pbuh) is the mother, and Jesus is God?
And so Joseph is the spiritual father of Almighty God?
(God forgive them for they know not what they say).
No offence meant but it is sometimes necessary to clarify ones view.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire,
and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods,
that they may provoke me to anger.
Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:
do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:18-19
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Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I believe it to be the inspired word of God,
Does God inspire confusions?
Reply

MustafaMc
09-22-2011, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
About Jesus and generation. Yeah, Jesus is a son of Joseph as far as his holy humanity is concerned. Sonship is not just blood, but mostly love/faith. There are those who share blood, but desown each other because their hearts are dead. But those who share the bond of love and truth are more deeply related than 'natural' blood relatives. I said 'natural' because there is a 'supernatural' bloodline called Faith. I thought you would have a sense of this as you call each other brother/sister without being natural blood relative.
So, Joseph was Jesus' adoptive father. I can go along with that, but the 'bond of love' isn't one of a real father to a real son. This is reflected in Islam in that legal adoption with changing of family name is not allowed. Ask any Jew if an adopted son can realistically trace his genealogy through the person who adopted him. Yes, we Muslims are brothers in faith with ties that surpass those of blood as you speak, but we don't trace ancestry through each other.
It is the same thing with the Bible. It was compiled in this family spirit. Also those who wrote its various documents did it in this family spirit. These document were all meant for those who are already in the Faith, not strangers. A stranger who read it should find those who are in the Faith and ask to undestand the Faith so he may understand their family memorial document.
Understanding of Christianity comes first, then the understanding the Bible.
So, one should first come to have faith in Christianity by having it taught to him and then with the background of that faith he can then have the ability to understand the Bible. This gets back to the doctrine about the Trinity with Christians having difficulty explaing it and ending with saying, "I can't explain it, but I accept it on faith."
It is not like the Quran. You can understand the Quran without being a Muslim and become Muslim after reading it. But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible anymore than a young child would understand the family album with photos of people the child does not now yet or heard of before.
So, do I understand correctly that an unbeliever can't read the Bible, from this reading come to understand the basic premises of Christianity, decide on his own it is the Truth and then desire to become a Christian? That is exactly what happened to me when I read the Quran, like you indicated was possible.

If I understood what you wrote and quoted, the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather Jesus was the Word of God. Hence the Gospel is not what Jesus taught, per se, but rather the Gospel is what others wrote and taught about Jesus' life and supposed death on the cross for man's redemption from sin. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah (swt), but we in no manner worship the Quran as Christians do Jesus.
Reply

Abz2000
09-22-2011, 04:11 AM
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 corinthians 14:33

who are the saints and what do the saints believe?

And it was given unto him (the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 13

so an international force will make war with the saints (no-one has had control over the kingdoms of the world until of late),
and their law is different to turning the other cheek.............

178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder:
the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.
But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
179. In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
Quran 2:178-179

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based inWashington, D.C.. It was co-founded as a non-profit educational organization byneoconservatives William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal was
"to promote American global leadership."
Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world"

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen,
and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jeremiah 10:2
Reply

Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 04:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 corinthians 14:33
So if a book is confusing for the general population, then it must not have come from God, correct?
Reply

Amigo
09-22-2011, 09:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
but the 'bond of love' isn't one of a real father to a real son.
On the contrary. It is love that makes real fatherhood and real sonship. Once this is cleared up, you would be amazed the implications of this on the history of mankind, not to say the history of religions...
Reply

Riana17
09-22-2011, 10:30 AM
Peace to All,

Let's stick with the subject. Is the BIBLE WORD OF GOD?
Definite answer: NO

Pls see this video

Reply

Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 10:34 AM
Here's what prof. Bart Ehrman said:

At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.
Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian.
"Christianity has never been about the Bible being the inerrant word of God," Ehrman says. "Christianity is about the belief in Christ."
Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.

prof. Ehrman also said this:

Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.
Most modern scholars of the Bible shy away from these terms, and for understandable reasons, some having to do with their clientele. Teaching in Christian seminaries, or to largely Christian undergraduate populations, who wants to denigrate the cherished texts of Scripture by calling them forgeries built on lies? And so scholars use a different term for this phenomenon and call such books "pseudepigrapha."
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d..._b_840301.html
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Amigo
09-22-2011, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
If I understood what you wrote and quoted, the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather Jesus was the Word of God. Hence the Gospel is not what Jesus taught, per se, but rather the Gospel is what others wrote and taught about Jesus' life and supposed death on the cross for man's redemption from sin.
According to the Church, the Gospel is and has always been Jesus himself.
Now, men have used technology to present his portrait. It becomes called 'the Gospel according' to whoever is presenting. Early Christians used the only media technology which was most useful: scrools and writting. When the Codex was invented, the Bible came along. Today, there are more technologies which Christians can use as medium to present their views of him or share their inspirations.
But the Gospel is not a book, or books, or a great CD or DVD, but a person: Jesus.
One who accounters Jesus accounters the Gospel.
Since the Gospel is a person, it can not be contained/preserved properly by a book or any other man made thing. It can only be contained in the conscience and the heart.
One who knows the Gospel in its purity, this one heard it in his conscience and received it in his heart. The Bible will be unsealed for him.

God is most just then, for He has given everyone a heart and a conscience. God makes sure everyone has both.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-22-2011, 11:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
According to the Church, the Gospel is and has always been Jesus himself.
So, we agree that the Bible is not the Word of God. It seems that we only disagree over what Jesus as Word of God really means. We Muslims believe that Jesus came into being merely by Allah (swt) saying 'Be!' and he was created. Jesus was the physical manifestation of that creative word proceeding from Allah (swt). In contrast John 1:1 says that the Word, meaning Jesus, was God.
One who accounters (encounters) Jesus accounters the Gospel.
Since the Gospel is a person, it can not be contained/preserved properly by a book or any other man made thing. It can only be contained in the conscience and the heart.
One who knows the Gospel in its purity, this one heard it in his conscience and received it in his heart.
Earlier you wrote, "Only a person born in the family and who has been guided through the album by real parents can have the proper understanding of the pictures in the album." From this I understand that the Gospel can only be passed from a rightly guided person to another. I agree that one doesn't arrive at an understanding of the Christian faith by reading the Bible, but rather first has faith and then with this faith as a foundation the words in the Bible can be interpreted according to that faith. I came to my Christian faith as a pre-teenager through listening to Sunday school teachers and preachers. It wasn't until college that I did much if any independent Bible study. The problem with all of this is relying upon someone to guide to the true faith as opposed to some corruption thereof.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 12:01 PM
In Explosive New Book FORGED, Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman Exposes Deceptive and Misleading Forgeries in the New Testament

According to leading biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, many of his contemporaries have it wrong when it comes to the Bible. Instead of calling biblical forgeries what they are—lies—they often fall back on safer scholarly terms, stopping just short of the word “forgery.”
In Forged, Ehrman reveals:

  • The Apostle Peter was illiterate, and therefore could not have written two letters (1 & 2 Peter) credited to him in the Bible.
  • Six of the Pauline letters in the New Testament are forgeries.
  • The First Book of Timothy, known to be a forgery, is still used today to oppress women, and provides the Scriptural basis for the Roman Catholic Church’s refusal to ordain female priests.

source http://www.prweb.com/releases/Erhman...web8219892.htm

More here
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...-scholar-says/
Ehrman doesn’t confine his critique to Paul’s letters. He challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. He says that none were written by Jesus' disciplies, citing two reasons.
He says none of the earliest gospels revealed the names of its authors, and that their current names were later added by scribes.
Ehrman also says that two of Jesus’ original disciples, John and Peter, could not have written the books attributed to them in the New Testament because they were illiterate.
“According to Acts 4:13, both Peter and his companion John, also a fisherman, were agrammatoi, a Greek word that literally means ‘unlettered,’ that is, ‘illiterate,’ ’’ he writes.
Reply

Amigo
09-22-2011, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We Muslims believe that Jesus came into being merely by Allah (swt) saying 'Be!'
Well, how does God say 'Be'? Does He has a mouth, and a voice, or....how does he do that exactly? Do you know?
Reply

Riana17
09-22-2011, 12:02 PM
Brother Amigo Must realize that Allah's (swt) Power is Beyond imagination

Allah (swt) has created human in 4 Forms

1. Adam from Mud
2. Eve from Adam
3. Me, you and Us from parents
4. Jesus without father

If Jesus is God because he dont have a father, Adam & Eve deserves the crowne more than him.

However, I see that Brother Amigo needs time to breath so he can realize what we are saying, Brother Amigo, you must be realistic and be logical.
Reply

Amigo
09-22-2011, 12:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I came to my Christian faith as a pre-teenager through listening to Sunday school teachers and preachers. It wasn't until college that I did much if any independent Bible study. The problem with all of this is relying upon someone to guide to the true faith as opposed to some corruption thereof.
'Relying to someone' can mean anything you want and anything you don't want.
The truth is, humans are always relying on someone on whatever they are doing.
What most important is to rely on someone in truth.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-22-2011, 12:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Well, how does God say 'Be'? Does He has a mouth, and a voice, or....how does he do that exactly? Do you know?
No, I don't know the method and means for Allah's (swt) speech. He knows everything about me and will recreate me down to my unique fingertips, but I know so very little of His majestic and glorious Being except for the descriptive '99 Names of Allah' and what the Quran says regarding His nature as in 2:255 and surah Al-Ikhlas.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-22-2011, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
In Explosive New Book FORGED, Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman Exposes Deceptive and Misleading Forgeries in the New Testament

According to leading biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, many of his contemporaries have it wrong when it comes to the Bible. Instead of calling biblical forgeries what they are—lies—they often fall back on safer scholarly terms, stopping just short of the word “forgery.”
In Forged, Ehrman reveals:

  • The Apostle Peter was illiterate, and therefore could not have written two letters (1 & 2 Peter) credited to him in the Bible.
  • Six of the Pauline letters in the New Testament are forgeries.
  • The First Book of Timothy, known to be a forgery, is still used today to oppress women, and provides the Scriptural basis for the Roman Catholic Church’s refusal to ordain female priests.
I haven't read this book, but I have read Prof. Ehrman's book "The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew". My opinion is that he is a great source on the authentic history of the Bible.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-22-2011, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
'Relying to someone' can mean anything you want and anything you don't want.
The truth is, humans are always relying on someone on whatever they are doing.
What most important is to rely on someone in truth.
Yes, we rely upon others for the source for our respective religions. You ultimately rely upon the veracity and truthfullness of Paul when he claims in Galatians that the Gospel he preached was a direct revelation from God. Likewise, I rely upon Muhammad (saaws) that he spoke the truth and that what he transmitted and was recorded as the Quran was literally the Word of Allah (swt) and that it has been preserved intact for over 1400 years. I also rely upon the recorded hadith and sunnah of Muhammad as the interpretation and application of the Quran to daily life and worship of our Creator.
Reply

Amigo
09-22-2011, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
No, I don't know the method and means for Allah's (swt) speech. He knows everything about me and will recreate me down to my unique fingertips, but I know so very little of His majestic and glorious Being except for the descriptive '99 Names of Allah' and what the Quran says regarding His nature as in 2:255 and surah Al-Ikhlas.
I asked because you wrote as if you knew.
Christians know, either potentially, or actually, because it is in the seed of the Christian Faith to know. The Word of God if perfect, since it is perfect it is complete, since it is complete, it contains all there is to know. Therefore, there is no answer that can not be answered in Christianity. It is usually only a matter of time for the individual, for man grow up, and he understands as he grow.
We believe the the Word of God is a person, the truth in its fullness and completeness is a person. In conversation with him, any question can be answered. And conversation is proportionate to the degree of respect and friendship. For those whose hearts dwel in love and love is all they are interested about, this is clear.

But for those who are interested in winning arguments, Bible verses are like casino cards to them. So it is not a surprise that the Word of God would be reduced to papers. Things that they can manipulate for thier own games. Like in casinos, the apparent gains are only a symbol of the loss of value they are growing.

Life is in love, and love happens between persons.
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Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
'Relying to someone' can mean anything you want and anything you don't want.
The truth is, humans are always relying on someone on whatever they are doing.
What most important is to rely on someone in truth.
As a catholic, I suppose you rely on popes and priests as people in truth to tell you what truth is.

Not sure if you are aware that many of your men on truth are paedophiles, rapists, gluttons, thieves, corruptors, liars, etc.
Just google: bad popes and priests

Meanwhile, muslims have literal and inerrant words of God in the Qur'an as the truth.
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Ramadhan
09-22-2011, 02:54 PM
Before we get sidetracked, let's compile what christians say about bible:

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
No need of a book to be created and no need of a book to be saved.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
But you can not understand the Bible without being Christian first. Even younger/new Christian can't understand the Bible
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
But the Gospel is not a book, or books
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The Gospel is not his words
In short, christians are saying that bible (and gospel) is not word of God, and in fact, nothing, and not necessary at all.

Who are we to argue with them?
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Amigo
09-22-2011, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
As a catholic, I suppose you rely on popes and priests as people in truth to tell you what truth is.
Here is a quote from the Catechism which gives a relative introduction on how it works:
1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47
A short quote considering what is on the page where I took it from, for I do not wish to blind anyone with too much light. Not that people don't do it themselves already by abusing the Bible like Paul used to abuse Sacred Scripture, consuming it only to get what he needed to feed his hate for the Church. At the end, it was indicated to him, that his eyes are blinded with too much light of the Word of God and he needed the Church to heal his eyes and make his eyes see properly. The Church is a mother, she knows how to feed her offspring and would never give them meat while they don't have teeth yet, for this would turn food into poison and kill them instead of saving them. She feeds them well, the fact that some turn out to be ungrateful and do evil does not remove the good ones from the blessedness they live in.
However, if a calm conscience tells someone that their eyes are strong enough for elaborations of that quote, they may click here. At the end, it shows connection with 'religious matters'.
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Grace Seeker
09-22-2011, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
so what you are saying is that the Creator God gave people a book that they CAN'T understand is the truth in order for them to find the truth; which they CAN'T know is the truth. and this makes sense to you? it doesn't sound like some kind of game show?it makes MUCH MORE sense for the Creator God to give people a book which they CAN understand in order to lead them to the truth, because THAT is what a God Infinite Wisdom would do! and thus He has!good day
Which makes it all the more sad that so few are actually guided by it rather than the centuries of tradition that overlay it. "Though a majority of the followers of Sunni and Shiite sects show apparent respect to the physical papers where the 114 chapters of the Quran is recorded or listen to its recitation with utmost respect, for centuries they have adapted sectarian teachings contradictory to the Quran. They read it without understanding; they listen to it without hearing. Even if they understand its message, they prefer following the teachings of their scholars or hearsay narratives falsely attributed to Muhammad." (source: The Quran: A Reformist Translation, Edip Yuksel)
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جوري
09-22-2011, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Which makes it all the more sad that so few are actually guided by it rather than the centuries of tradition that overlay it. "Though a majority of the followers of Sunni and Shiite sects show apparent respect to the physical papers where the 114 chapters of the Quran is recorded or listen to its recitation with utmost respect, for centuries they have adapted sectarian teachings contradictory to the Quran. They read it without understanding; they listen to it without hearing. Even if they understand its message, they prefer following the teachings of their scholars or hearsay narratives falsely attributed to Muhammad." (source: The Quran: A Reformist Translation, Edip Yuksel)
Edip the reformist really understands the Muslim mind! :D
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Ramadhan
09-23-2011, 01:01 AM
So to summarize what Amigo the christian has said in this thread (and to emphasize what Prof. Bart Ehrman concluded from his extensive research):

As a christian, you don't have to believe in bible and you have to reject it as the word of god (because as amigo said, the word of god is jesus pbuh, not the bible). As a christian all you have to do is to believe that jesus is god who let himself killed to be able to forgive human sins, and anything else is inconsequential.
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Abz2000
09-23-2011, 02:24 AM
I edited this video about a year ago, it's someone who went through all these questions.



You can find the full vid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY
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Muhaba
09-25-2011, 01:14 PM
a book should testify whether it is or isn't the work of its author. this is true of every book. for example, you've kknown someone very well and then someone shows you a book and says he/she has written it. after reading it, you might say, "this isn't something he would write!" likewise, if you always read someone's books, it may be possible for you to tell whether something is his/her work or not. so if someone shows you something written by someone else, you most likely will say, "that doesn't seem like his/her work."

so while it may not be possible for you to be able to tell whether a certain writer has written a certain book or not unless you know him /her well or have written many of his/her books to be able to tell what his/her writing is like, as for God, it is always true that you can tell whether a certain book is His work or not. when you analyze the bible, you can tell that while it has some parts that are truely from God, not all parts are. there are many contradictions in the bible and there are many blasphemies that cannot be possibly God's word. so the Bible itself testifies that it is no longer the unchanged work of God. it has been tampered with by man.
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Grace Seeker
09-25-2011, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by WRITER
a book should testify whether it is or isn't the work of its author. this is true of every book
But it isn't true of every book.

There are many books that are anonymous, the author completely unknown.
There are many books that are published under pseudonymns to intentionally hide the identity of the author.
There are many books that are assumed to be by one particular author and later learned not to have been that author's work.


With regard to the Bible, the Bible does not purport to be a dictated work of God. It is also not a single book. It is a collection of books. It has many human writers -- some known, some assumed, some completely unknown -- who, though inspired, also lent their own personality and character to that which was written. Thus, many of your arguments against it are against not the Bible but some fictional book you've invented in your own mind that it never actually claims to be.
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Scimitar
09-26-2011, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
I too read it and have a deep respect for it due to the words of the prophets and the prophecies it contains,
I also agree that it has different levels,
The truth in it is at the highest level,
And the changes made by men for - God knows who - because even children would see through the flaws.
It was the Emperor Constantines and his Council of Nicea:

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Abz2000
09-26-2011, 04:52 AM
begotten not made? what does begotten mean?
astaghfirullah - there is no queen of heaven.
.........or does begotten actually not mean begotten?

how do you reconcile it?
Doublethink, a word coined by George Orwell in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four,
describes the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.
It is related to, but distinct from, hypocrisy and neutrality.
Its opposite is cognitive dissonance, where the two beliefs cause conflict in one's mind.
Doublethink is an integral concept of George Orwell'sdystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.
The word doublethink is part of Newspeak.
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Ramadhan
09-26-2011, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
It was the Emperor Constantines and his Council of Nicea:
emperor constantine and council of nicea only shopped around and picked which books they thought conformed to their paganised faith and canonised as bible. Since the death of Musa (as), various scribes, rabbis and priests had wrote, changed, added, edit, removed all kinds of books that they claimed from God.
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Ramadhan
09-26-2011, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
With regard to the Bible, the Bible does not purport to be a dictated work of God. It is also not a single book. It is a collection of books. It has many human writers -- some known, some assumed, some completely unknown -- who, though inspired, also lent their own personality and character to that which was written. Thus, many of your arguments against it are against not the Bible but some fictional book you've invented in your own mind that it never actually claims to be.
Is this an example of cognitive dissonance?
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MustafaMc
09-26-2011, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
begotten not made? what does begotten mean?
astaghfirullah - there is no queen of heaven.
.........or does begotten actually not mean begotten?
Begotten is the past participle of beget and means 1) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction. 2) Give rise to; bring about.

The understanding regarding John 3:16 is one of an intimate relationship between God and Jesus without implying sexual intimacy between God and Mary. So, yes, this is an example of cognitive dissonance in the sense that Jesus was the son of Mary and God, but without normal physical relations between the two or even through the miraculous union of an egg from Mary with a sperm from God, astaghfir'Allah.

This brings us to the second definition of beget, but we know that God also gave rise to Adam and brought him into being or existence. In this sense the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam, but it denies Jesus being the 'only begotten Son' of God which is in agreement with surah Al-Ikhlas.

There is no more widely known verse of the Bible than John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life." which Jesus is quoted as saying in the third person almost as one would speak of someone else. It seems logical that if Jesus was actually speaking here he would say something like, "whosoever believes on me". Notice the similarity and contrast with the Quran 3:31 "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Allah (swt) is telling Muhammad to tell the people "follow me" which is in the first person, but it is prefaced with "say" to indicate that another is actually speaking.
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Scimitar
09-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Ramadhan and Abz2000, very well said...

with ref to the council of Nicea - it was much worse than canonizing the bible bro Ramadhan. At that time, the Romans were finding Christians who followed Jesus (AS) true teachings, rounded them all up and killed them. It was religious genocide. The Christianity we have today is exactly as bro Abz2000 has put it "simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts."


Where do we think the concept of trinity came from? Exactly my point.

As for the old testament, well. It's plain to see that it is in error. I was also taking a look at the Torah and found that to be a total farce... then there's the Talmud - a book which Zionists claim is a holy book, yet when I read some of it, I found it to be the most unholy book I have ever come across... I wish I could elaborate further, but I don't have my notes to hand at the moment.
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m2p
09-26-2011, 05:37 PM
Good one scimi

someone should post the youtube vid of ahmad deedat on this subject or dr zakir naik
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Amigo
09-26-2011, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
With regard to the Bible, the Bible does not purport to be a dictated work of God. It is also not a single book. It is a collection of books. It has many human writers -- some known, some assumed, some completely unknown -- who, though inspired, also lent their own personality and character to that which was written. Thus, many of your arguments against it are against not the Bible but some fictional book you've invented in your own mind that it never actually claims to be.
Very well put.
The other day, I told someone (I dont' remember who) that it looks like playing a game with yourself. It is like in those video games where people eventually forget that they are in a virtual world playing with themselves. The 'adversaries' are so well designed by the programmer that they appear real. The overhelming desire to win does the rest in hijacking the temporal sense of reality.

When this is applied to the Bible, it is a real tragedy. Amazing what pride and other desires can do to us humans.

I love God. His sense of self-respect inspires more worship and praise in me. He has a way of disciplining truly worthy of his holy majesty. He is truly just; there is nothing more just than to let people have what they want. I love God.
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Ramadhan
09-27-2011, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Very well put.
The other day, I told someone (I dont' remember who) that it looks like playing a game with yourself. It is like in those video games where people eventually forget that they are in a virtual world playing with themselves. The 'adversaries' are so well designed by the programmer that they appear real. The overhelming desire to win does the rest in hijacking the temporal sense of reality.

When this is applied to the Bible, it is a real tragedy. Amazing what pride and other desires can do to us humans.

I love God. His sense of self-respect inspires more worship and praise in me. He has a way of disciplining truly worthy of his holy majesty. He is truly just; there is nothing more just than to let people have what they want. I love God.
Is this doublethink or cognitive dissonance?

Or it maybe both?
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Abz2000
09-27-2011, 07:51 AM
I believe we should never say the Torah is a farce brother (with respect),
Since it was revealed by God to Musa (pbuh) and is mentioned numerous times in the Quran,
What I would say is that the "modified" book which is heavily riddled with edits has real issues,
And the provable false writings of men are a farce,

And regarding the Talmud........

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

...... What can you say?????
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Ramadhan
09-27-2011, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
I believe we should never say the Torah is a farce brother (with respect),
Since it was revealed by God to Musa (pbuh) and is mentioned numerous times in the Quran,
I think when br, Scimitar mentioned "torah", he meant the current pentateuch in the bible, not the torah as revealed to Musa (as).
We know that the jews/christians refer to the pentateuch as torah, but as we all know and it's been proven many times by bible scholars themselves, the pentateuch couldn't have been possibly written or authored by Musa (as) although it still may contain traces of torah as revealed to Musa (as) such as the commandment to worship the one god etc.

But yes, I think we should make clear which books we have in mind when we are in comparative religion discussions like this.
And you are right: we must not say "torah is farce", because that would be ridiculing the book as Allah revealed to Musa (pbuh).
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Aprender
09-27-2011, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The other day, I told someone (I dont' remember who) that it looks like playing a game with yourself. It is like in those video games where people eventually forget that they are in a virtual world playing with themselves. The 'adversaries' are so well designed by the programmer that they appear real. The overhelming desire to win does the rest in hijacking the temporal sense of reality.

When this is applied to the Bible, it is a real tragedy. Amazing what pride and other desires can do to us humans.

I love God. His sense of self-respect inspires more worship and praise in me. He has a way of disciplining truly worthy of his holy majesty. He is truly just; there is nothing more just than to let people have what they want. I love God.
What kind of Christian are you? Which denomination do you follow?
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Amigo
09-28-2011, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
What kind of Christian are you? Which denomination do you follow?
Proudly Catholic:)
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Abz2000
09-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Do you follow the pope or Jesus (pbuh)?
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Amigo
09-28-2011, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
Do you follow the pope or Jesus (pbuh)?
Read up the Catechism.
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جوري
09-28-2011, 03:43 PM
as the saying goes, if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with B.S ;D
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YusufNoor
09-28-2011, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Read up the Catechism.
is that a huge event where kittens get together and tremble violently? :omg:
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MustafaMc
09-29-2011, 02:55 AM
Since we have agreed that the Bible is not the literal Word of God, what standard do Christians use to know that what they believe is the Truth?
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Amigo
09-29-2011, 08:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Since we have agreed that the Bible is not the literal Word of God
That's a great step where it is made.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
what standard do Christians use to know that what they believe is the Truth?
You are not ready yet for a simple answer, when you are ready it will be given you. Everything at their right time.
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Eric H
09-29-2011, 10:57 AM
Greetings and peace be with you
MustafaMc;
Since we have agreed that the Bible is not the literal Word of God, what standard do Christians use to know that what they believe is the Truth?
It seems a miracle that the Bible was ever written at all, and I find it truly remarkable. Above all else Jesus inspired people, and that message still comes across 2000 years later.

The Jewish authority opposed Jesus, and he lived in a land occupied by the Romans, yet there are no stories of Jesus carrying a sword to protect himself. He lived a fairly dangerous life challenging authority and injustice; it seems he trusted in a higher authority to look after him. Stories of having faith in God and trusting in God run throughout the Bible. Jesus knew his destiny and his impending death and resurrection, which left him free to fulfil God’s work day to day.

Jesus came with a powerful message, it might seem strange that he did not have the need to write this story down himself so it would be passed onto others as he wanted. But if you stop and think a little further, it just empathises his trust in God. He knew that he would inspire others to write it in the way that God wants. Jesus performed so many miracles, his parables carried a real power, his life experiences where extraordinary by any standards.

You can bring up all the “what if questions about the Bible” the bottom line is faith in God and it is the will og God that the Bible is the way it is.

Even if someone like Adolph Hitler conspired to do things to the Bible, he would fail because God is in control; not man.

After the ascension of Jesus into heaven his disciples where given the gift of the spirit and they went of in all directions doing things and preaching the word of God. Because they wrote their stories from many countries over a period of years, we have to contend with translations from many languages. It seems the disciples did not consciously work together with the intention of writing the Bible, because like Jesus they were people of action and they spread the word in a more convincing way by doing things. These disciples were not able to complete writing the Bible and they inspired a next generation to continue.

Any communication between the disciples when they where scattered around different countries could have taken weeks or months to arrive, they could also have moved on. Their stories seem written very much from an individual perception as to how Jesus inspired each of them, and these individual inspirations are what inspire me.

Over the years I have been inspired more by one author in the Bible, then years later something written by another author about the same story helps me to understand another perception. Atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, Muslims have somehow helped me to understand the Bible from their opposing views, and I find this strange.

Over the last two thousand years language has changed, and scholars with all truthful sincerity have done their very best to faithfully translate the Bible in the way God intended. I believe that the message today remains extremely powerful and inspiring even though it is impossible to get an exact translation. There are footnotes throughout the Bible giving alternative translations so that the individual can try and find a best meaning and purpose.

I would struggle to learn Latin or any other language sadly it seems very difficult for me. I am so pleased that the Bible is available in just about every language, despite what people would call contradictions in translations, it was meant for all people, of all languages and not just scholars.

When I first started to think about the life of Jesus I wondered why he did not use all his powers of miracles to gain a status in life, become a ruler, a general or great high priest with people following him. He could have achieved a power base and written his own story. But now I look on the story of Jesus as not relying on the power of man to spread his word, rather he relied on the power of God. Jesus claimed no power on Earth. I wondered why Jesus had to die he could have avoided it.

But I believe that the destiny of Jesus was planned before the creation of the universe began, and he went through with God’s plan that was set out before creation began.

The question that remains is did Jesus truly trust in God to have his story written, and was God powerful enough to have the story edited in the way he wanted?

The very fact that there are translations and varying shades of meanings keep people searching, and striving to understand more. The Bible was written to inspire people to do things; and I believe it has that power.

So in a roundabout way the many authors of the Bible are not so important to me, I place my trust in God who I believe had the power to edit the book I read today.

God's blessing and peace be with you and your family

Eric
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Ramadhan
09-29-2011, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
But if you stop and think a little further, it just empathises his trust in God.
Does this mean he is not God according to you?
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Ramadhan
09-29-2011, 12:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
You are not ready yet for a simple answer, when you are ready it will be given you. Everything at their right time.
christianity sounds like a super secretive and elitist cult.
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MustafaMc
09-29-2011, 12:47 PM
EricH, I sincerely appreciate your honesty and your straightforward answers.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
The Jewish authority opposed Jesus, and he lived in a land occupied by the Romans, yet there are no stories of Jesus carrying a sword to protect himself. He lived a fairly dangerous life challenging authority and injustice; it seems he trusted in a higher authority to look after him. Stories of having faith in God and trusting in God run throughout the Bible. ....

When I first started to think about the life of Jesus I wondered why he did not use all his powers of miracles to gain a status in life, become a ruler, a general or great high priest with people following him. He could have achieved a power base and written his own story. But now I look on the story of Jesus as not relying on the power of man to spread his word, rather he relied on the power of God.
I see a strong similarity with Muhammad (saaws) particularly after reading 'The Sealed Nectar' a biography about him. A big difference though is that Muhammad (saaws) in the end did achieve success, but he maintained a simple austere life despite having control over the new and expanding Islamic community and nation.
Jesus claimed no power on Earth. I wondered why Jesus had to die he could have avoided it.

But I believe that the destiny of Jesus was planned before the creation of the universe began, and he went through with God’s plan that was set out before creation began.
These points illustrate the importance I see that Christians place on Jesus' death on the cross. This brings to mind comments made by other Christian members here that basically the Gospel is not what Jesus said or even did while he walked this earth, but rather the Gospel is what Jesus did on the cross and his subsequent resurrection. Jesus is quoted as referencing his death in somewhat unclear and vague terms (IMHO) and that the Gospel as we know it today was preached by others, most notably by Paul.

However, your comments reflect similar question in my mind, but the flip-side-of-the-coin so to speak. Muslims believe that Jesus was not the Son of God, he was not crucified, and that he has not yet died. As you so noted, God has willed that the Bible was written and that many people reference it as evidence of those very things that Muslims negate. There are so many similarities between Islam and Christianity, yet the underlying basic beliefs about Jesus and God are fundamentally and diametrically opposed. I have often wondered why this is so and why I was led (or perhaps misled from your perspective) to change my beliefs while you haven't likewise been so guided. In the end it is as God has willed it to be.
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Amigo
09-30-2011, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
christianity sounds like a super secretive and elitist cult.
There is nothing secretive, the Catechism is available on google, free for everyone who is ready to see. If you can't read it, it's because you are not ready for it. I m talking about the catechism because I already mentioned it. It is a book for those who are ready for Catholicism.
But there is something even more Catholic than the catechism; the head and the heart. No one is without a conscience and a heart. There is no one who does not have them and God is there with ready answers for a heart that seeks.
A head and a heart are all you need to be Christian and remain one. As you see, we are no more secretive than God is, after all, He is everywhere, but it is not everyone who sees him, only the pure of heart. Well, the purer the heart gets, the clearer the vision gets. Nothing hiden but what we hide from ourselves.
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MustafaMc
09-30-2011, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
There is nothing secretive, the Catechism is available on google, free for everyone who is ready to see. If you can't read it, it's because you are not ready for it. I m talking about the catechism because I already mentioned it. It is a book for those who are ready for Catholicism.
From what you have written earlier, I understand that one must first have the Christian faith in a generic sense and then you are taught the specifics of what to believe through the catechism. In Catholicism faith comes first then knowledge (through the catechism) which explains why one can't become a Catholic merely from reading the Bible. The Word is transmitted through the Holy Spirit to the heart to instill the Christian faith and then knowledge comes latter to the head (mind) through a catechist or one who teaches the catechism.

Wikipedia - "Catechisms are doctrinal manuals often in the form of questions followed by answers to be memorized."

A summary of the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

1. God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth - One God, ‘I AM WHO I AM’, name is YHWH, a God merciful and gracious, Truth, Love

2. Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord – the Good News is that God has sent his Son, heart of the catechesis, the Incarnate Word and Son of God, true God and true Man, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into Hell, rose from the dead, ascended to Heaven where he is seated at the right hand of the Father, will come again to judge the living and the dead.

3. Holy Spirit – reveals God, makes Christ known to us, makes us hear the Father’s Word, manifest as: water, anointing with oil, fire, cloud and light, the seal, the hand, the finger, the dove.

4. The Holy Catholic Church – the People of God, Body of Christ and Temple of the Holy Spirit.

5. Forgiveness of Sins – with faith in the Holy Spirit and the Church, in the communion of saints (Eucharist), through Baptism, sacrament of Penance, other sacraments such as Eucharist

6. Resurrection of the body from the dead with reuniting of the soul with a glorified body.

7. Life Everlasting – Judgment immediately after death with either entrance into Heaven immediately or after a purification (Purgatory), or immediate and everlasting ****ation in Hell.

(Amigo, please correct me where I am wrong and misunderstand.)
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Amigo
09-30-2011, 06:07 PM
You said many things, I am not sure if I am understanding you precisely here. The fact is books are technological medium/tools to achieve or make something easier in some case where it is possible. That is all.

True faith is like the faith in a good family. The father believe that the childreen are his without ever having asked for DNA test or any other proof. Love of his wife is enough proof. The same applies for childreen who don't ask their mother for proof that they father is really their father.
Where there is love, there is truth (understanding), and faith (trust).
With this faith, ideas of proofs sounds like insults, if it is so for man, how much more for God, for God give us even more love and more obvious proofs of his love...
It is interesting to notice that this is not blind faith either...

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The Word is transmitted through the Holy Spirit to the heart to instill the Christian faith and then knowledge comes latter to the head (mind) through a catechist or one who teaches the catechism.
Understanding is the better term to use here. Also faith does not come before understanding. They go together like a flame and the light that radiate in/from it. What comes after is 'development' of faith and understanding and this is where books are often useful. Books are like babysitters. They are great, but it is not like without them, the baby is necessarly doomed. Even here babysitters are better because they are human, books are technology.

The summary you gave is only the summary of the Creed or rather a little detailed presentation of the Creed. Catechesis is always in 4 parts: Creed, Liturgy, Commandments, and Prayer.
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