Now France bans Muslims from praying outside mosques

[MSalman]

Praying in Paris streets outlawed


First hijab in schools then niqab in Public and now praying outside the mosques. But promiscuity is still allowed!

What will be next: believing in Islam!!?

[Trumble]

It's sort of fundamentalist secularism, isn't it? So much for 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité` :hmm:

[Endymion]

This behavior is really funny.This is the same France and French people who got offended on the Mother of Ten year old girl to present her girl as a sex symbol and force her to close the facebook fan page.They thought the Mother destroyed her childhood.Here.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/10-year...ry?id=14262329



And they cant bear a piece of cloth on Muslim women's head.

[جوري]

moral decay does fester everything it touches.. how frightened these societies must feel that they're so threatened by prayer and modesty.. I swear it is bordering upon hilarious ... fasbron jameel!

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[noorseeker]

So whats the charge officer? Well basically you been arressted for praying to God:hmm:

[Futuwwa]

This behavior is really funny.This is the same France and French people who got offended on the Mother of Ten year old girl to present her girl as a sex symbol and force her to close the facebook fan page.They thought the Mother destroyed her childhood.Here.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/10-year...ry?id=14262329



And they cant bear a piece of cloth on Muslim women's head.

In other words, the French insist that everyone be just the correct amount of revealing. Not too modest, not too revealing.

Much of the time, French "egalité" is really about homogeneity. There's a saying that goes something like this: Egalité means that everyone is equally tall. If you're too short, you're put on the rack, and if you're too long, you're put through the guillotine :phew

[Abdul-Raouf]

Praying in Paris streets outlawed


First hijab in schools then niqab in Public and now praying outside the mosques. But promiscuity is still allowed!

What will be next: believing in Islam!!?

:) ... Nothing can stop Islam ... the more they try to restrict Islam.. the more it will Grow

... Cant hide Truth... Truth=Islam will win... no matter what.

[Nate]

Its the French.....;D

[Darth Ultor]

It's sort of fundamentalist secularism, isn't it? So much for 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité` :hmm:

This times a hundred.

[Al-Mufarridun]

In other words, the French insist that everyone be just the correct amount of revealing. Not too modest, not too revealing.

Much of the time, French "egalité" is really about homogeneity. There's a saying that goes something like this: Egalité means that everyone is equally tall. If you're too short, you're put on the rack, and if you're too long, you're put through the guillotine :phew

take a look at these demographics;

[Abz2000]

here's a glimpse into the future:







this is how it was meant to read:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.

A teacher in the Poway Unified School District has been ordered by the U.S. Court of Appeals to remove two large banners that referred to "God" and the "Creator" from his classroom walls.
Brad Johnson, a teacher at Westview High School, had been directed by the district to remove two large banners which read “IN GOD WE TRUST,” “ONE NATION UNDER GOD,” “GOD BLESS AMERICA,” “GOD SHED HIS GRACE ON THEE” and “All men are created equal, they are endowed by their CREATOR.”
The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals announced their unanimous decision on Tuesday, which overturned a previous ruling by a lower court. As a result of the court’s decision, Johnson must remove the banners.
continue to article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44511227...ove-god-class/


There was a sound of marching boots outside. The steel door opened with a clang. A young officer, a trim black-uniformed figure who seemed to glitter all over with polished leather, and whose pale, straight-featured face was like a wax mask, stepped smartly through the doorway. He motioned to the guards outside to bring in the prisoner they were leading. The poet Ampleforth shambled into the cell. The door clanged shut again.

Ampleforth made one or two uncertain movements from side to side, as though having some idea that there was another door to go out of, and then began to wander up and down the cell. He had not yet noticed Winston's presence. His troubled eyes were gazing at the wall about a metre above the level of Winston's head. He was shoeless; large, dirty toes were sticking out of the holes in his socks. He was also several days away from a shave. A scrubby beard covered his face to the cheekbones, giving him an air of ruffianism that went oddly with his large weak frame and nervous movements.

Winston roused hirnself a little from his lethargy. He must speak to Ampleforth, and risk the yell from the telescreen. It was even conceivable that Ampleforth was the bearer of the razor blade.

'Ampleforth,' he said.

There was no yell from the telescreen. Ampleforth paused, mildly startled. His eyes focused themselves slowly on Winston.

'Ah, Smith!' he said. 'You too!'

'What are you in for?'

'To tell you the truth -- ' He sat down awkwardly on the bench opposite Winston. 'There is only one offence, is there not?' he said.

'And have you committed it?'

'Apparently I have.'

He put a hand to his forehead and pressed his temples for a moment, as though trying to remember something.

'These things happen,' he began vaguely. 'I have been able to recall one instance -- a possible instance. It was an indiscretion, undoubtedly. We were producing a definitive edition of the poems of Kipling. I allowed the word "God" to remain at the end of a line. I could not help it!' he added almost indignantly, raising his face to look at Winston. 'It was impossible to change the line. The rhyme was "rod". Do you realize that there are only twelve rhymes to "rod" in the entire language? For days I had racked my brains. There was no other rhyme.'

1984 - george orwell.

[Futuwwa]

take a look at these demographics;

Interesting for sure. But since you posted these statistics, maybe you would like to tell us what you think they imply, before I do.

[Futuwwa]

But on the whole, the title is misleading. Prayer outside mosques isn't prohibited. Prayer in the streets is. There's a world of a difference between the two. A street is a transportation lane and a public utility. Praying in it blocks traffic. Keeping public utilities functioning is definitely a matter of state.

This law is not an outrage. That, simultaneously, actual mosque construction that would solve the problem is often hindered by bigoted right-wing officials and public opinion, is.

[Al-Mufarridun]

Interesting for sure. But since you posted these statistics, maybe you would like to tell us what you think they imply, before I do.

please, feel free.

[Abz2000]

But on the whole, the title is misleading. Prayer outside mosques isn't prohibited. Prayer in the streets is. There's a world of a difference between the two. A street is a transportation lane and a public utility. Praying in it blocks traffic. Keeping public utilities functioning is definitely a matter of state.
This law is not an outrage.

brother futuwwa do you know that most mosques in the west are not giant complexes with acres of fields surrounding them? and that they mostly step straight out onto the street from the doors? i would sincerely ask you to do some soul-searching..............and do you know what the "no-fly zone" pushed by sarkozy blatantly turned into???????????????/

When the persecution of the Muslims in Makkah became too much, permission was granted for some Muslims to emigrate to Abyssinia. Abu Bakr (ra) was one of those who were interested in going, but was stopped on the journey by ibn at-Tagunna, a non-Muslim who did not live in Makkah, and yet had still heard of the selfless and generous nature of Abu Bakr (ra).
Ibn at-Tagunna persuaded Abu Bakr to go back by offering him protection. At that time, offering a person protection was a serious responsibility, as one was promising to protect the other to the death.
The tribe of Quraish heard about this and saw the opportunity to get something out of it. They approached ibn at-Tagunna and asked him to apply a condition: Abu Bakr was not to be allowed to pray outside of his house. The Quraish realised the power of salah, and what effect it had on people witnessing it, so they wanted to stop this form of da’wah from happening.
Abu Bakr agreed to this when ibn at-Tagunna told him of it. However, Abu Bakr slowly began to realise that he missed praying in public; Abu Bakr was the first Muslim to stand in front of the Ka’bah and publicly announce La ilaha il-Allah, Muhammad-ur-rasul-Allah – that was the love he had of spreading the message of Islam.
So Abu Bakr compromised: he prayed in his front garden. When he began reciting surahs, tears fell from his eyes – he had a soft heart, full of taqwa – and before long he had an audience.
The Quraish were furious. They demanded ibn at-Tagunna to sort it out, so he went to Abu Bakr and asked him to either stop praying in public, or to relinquish the protection. Abu Bakr thanked ibn at-Tagunna for the protection and said that he would be satisfied with the protection of Allah from now on.
Soon after, Abu Bakr went to pray out near the Ka’bah and was attacked. Instead of regretting his decision to cancel ibn at-Tagunna’s protection, or complaining about the lack of protection he was receiving from Allah, he called out to Allah and extolled His compassion and mercy – Abu Bakr understood that all tests from Allah are for our benefit, whose rewards we reap either in this world or the next.
Out of the many lessons we can take from this story, there is one point I want to focus on: Abu Bakr was not happy with praying quietly in a corner of his home, ignored by his household and unnoticed by the non-Muslims going by outside.
Abu Bakr’s love for salah was so great that he risked his life to pray in the open, sacrificing all protection.
Compare this with the way we are.

[Novice]

What is humorous (and quite nonsensical) is when your average flag-worshiping simpleton whines about 'religious tolerance' in the Islamic world.

[Futuwwa]

abz, don't get melodramatic. I know perfectly well what mosques in the West are like. You live in London, I live in Helsinki. If you think it's bad there, you have no idea of what it's like here. In all of Finland, there is only one purpose-built mosque. The rest are just various spaces that have been converted to the purpose, some fitting it better than others. Some of the mosques I've been to compete with the original Medinan mosque in simplicity.

The fact remains though, the sidewalk belongs to everyone, and has been built for a specific purpose. While I'm sure quite a few are against prayer on the sidewalk out of sheer bigotry, the fact remains, prayers on the sidewalk causes a real obstruction for pedestrians and people trying to get in and out of buildings. If we claim the sidewalk to pray on, we are robbing it from the rest of society, which has together paid for it.

There would be a difference if it was about a park, or some other place which is actually built for general hanging around.

[FS123]

If it is just ban on the street than I seen nothing wrong with it.

[Abz2000]

are you aware of the half naked nativity plays that whole regions are cordoned off for
- or when his highness Mr President G W Bush or his highness Obama, or his highness Sarkozy makes a visit?
and that taxpayer funded police are assigned to protect?
are you aware of all the pubs which overflow on Friday and Saturday with groups of people spilling out standing and sitting drunk on the sidewalk, i tiptoe through them often - or go around.

without getting "melodramatic" - i will tell you that it is more of a right to use the sidewalk to praise Almighty God who owns the land on which the sidewalk is built, than to use it to disobey and disrespect Him.

It is related that Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said,
"The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said,
'I have been given five things which no one before me was given:
I have been helped to victory by terror flooding (my enemies') hearts upto a month's journey away;
for me, the whole earth has been made a mosque and made pure
- wherever a man of my community finds himself when the time of prayer comes, he can pray;
taking booty has been made lawful for me when it was not lawful for anyone before me;
I have been given the right of intercession;
and whereas every other Prophet was sent only to his people, I have been sent to all mankind.'"
Sahih Bukhari 328.

"melodramatic" indeed.

[GuestFellow]

If it is just ban on the street than I seen nothing wrong with it.

Asslamu Aliakum,

Same here. Muslims should become creative and use the law to their advantage. If they can't pray in the streets, I'm sure they can pray in the park/mall. The Muslim community in France can get together and buy a building and turn it into a small mosque or something. There are many options to explore.

Anyway, the French government really needs to focus on more serious issues. This move is simply to divert the public from its economic problems. It's pathetic.

[Al-Mufarridun]

abz, don't get melodramatic. I know perfectly well what mosques in the West are like. You live in London, I live in Helsinki. If you think it's bad there, you have no idea of what it's like here. In all of Finland, there is only one purpose-built mosque. The rest are just various spaces that have been converted to the purpose, some fitting it better than others. Some of the mosques I've been to compete with the original Medinan mosque in simplicity.

The fact remains though, the sidewalk belongs to everyone, and has been built for a specific purpose. While I'm sure quite a few are against prayer on the sidewalk out of sheer bigotry, the fact remains, prayers on the sidewalk causes a real obstruction for pedestrians and people trying to get in and out of buildings. If we claim the sidewalk to pray on, we are robbing it from the rest of society, which has together paid for it.

There would be a difference if it was about a park, or some other place which is actually built for general hanging around.

Muslims shouldn't pray in the middle of the streets, I agree with you on that 100%. However what is alarming is the reason why this ban is being enforced, it is not to clear the sidewalks for everybody's convenience, rather it is just one part of a systematic effort to wipe out the image of faith, particularly that of Islam, from public life. These steps are just the beginning, secularism is the new state religion in France and it is increasingly evolving into the church of the dark ages.

[Futuwwa]

Well, abz, you did encourage me to do "soul-searching", acting as if I was seriously misguided and in need of repentance and clarity simply because I disagreed about a point of public policy, which is kind of to give the issue more drama than it warrants :hmm:

Nativity plays are, like, how often? Once a year. Foreign head of state visits that require special traffic arrangements are even rarer. If the drunks are seriously clogging up the street to an extent where they obstruct transportation, sure, you have an issue against them. But the only thing that implies is that they shouldn't be allowed to do that either. Not that everyone should be able to obstruct traffic in an obstructionist free-for-all.

[جوري]

there are over 5 mil Muslims in France.. God knows anyway how many of them are praying Muslims but it is obvious by the speed these laws are passed and the absurdity of them, that they want to make Muslims (practicing) most unwelcome.. I don't know any Muslims that pray in the middle of a busy intersections or on coming traffic.. I think we all on the lowest common denominator want a quiet safe place if not in jama3a for prayer and introspection.. perhaps some don't like to pray in shady back alleys because they don't know what freak or hoodlum will attack them..

[Futuwwa]

Well, based on what I've read about this issue, the overflowing salah crowds do tend to block entrances to buildings and make sidewalks impossible to walk through without wading through the praying people.

[GuestFellow]

They might as well ban dogs on the streets. Ugh...dogs poo on the streets and it's gross.

[جوري]

that's what the french say to justify their bigotry .. sort of like when the Americans pass 27 (to date) anti-sharia bills.. I'd like to know how much of that paranoia and hatred is steeped in some semblance of reality ..

[Novice]

Well, based on what I've read about this issue, the overflowing salah crowds do tend to block entrances to buildings and make sidewalks impossible to walk through without wading through the praying people.

Yes, but that is not the primary reason for the ban. The ban must be implemented in order not to, according to the hypocritical right wingers 'hurt the sensitivities of many of our fellow citizens.' Which is complete BS.

[joyous fairy]

I get what you guys are saying but if nobody stands against this, dont you think theyll think its ok to ban praying in other places?

If they see that Muslims are ok with them doing those kind of things, they'll think we are a pushover and will accept those kind of laws.

[Abz2000]

actually it's quite uplifting - many people have stated how they became interested in Islam after seeing people spilling out of the mosques - it was the devotion and method of prayer that got them curious - as it was with those who watched Abu Bakr.



it definitely made me proud to be a Muslim.

and yes, visiting Makkah and Medina made me feel that it is normal for people to pray on God's earth wherever there is a clean space, people go out of their way in order to make way for a praying believer.

and brother AlMufarridun

Muslims shouldn't pray in the middle of the streets, I agree with you on that 100%.

.
if after reading the hadith
.....for me, the whole earth has been made a mosque and made pure
- wherever a man of my community finds himself when the time of prayer comes, he can pray;......

you said that - then i would suggest it's about time those who want to practice our religion freely set up a system where we can - it's way past due - because this is a definite way of infringing on the freedom of religion simply because the mosques are packing out more and more while other places of worship are getting emptier day by day - to the dismay of Sarkozy.
first they were alarmed by the increasing number of Muslim Ladies wearing hijab, now they're alarmed at the increasing number of Muslims praying? where were these "laws" before - and where do you think this is heading?

the reason they are spilling out is due to the lack of space to accommodate the increasing number of practising Muslims,
it is therefore their right to pray where there is space,
and if it becomes a local convenience issue for the local council - then the local council must ensure they are given ample space to pray at convenient locations.
dhimmis under the Islamic state had that convenience - despite it being an Islamic state.
what is to be said for a state which claims to be neutral on religious issues, yet infringes on the right to freely worship?
are communities then expected to pay taxes without representation?
that was never allowed under the Islamic State.
the Caliph would give the taxes back when an external enemy attacked in fear of breaking the covenant of protection,
not much can be said of the u.n on that issue considering Iraq and Libya were both member states of the u.n and had to sign up to their human rights laws.

when an increasing number of the population want something, the dictators at the head of fake democracies see if they like it and publicize it in order to implement it. or even hire people to make a hoohaa so they can pretend it is widely desired.
however - when it is evident that an increasing number of the population want something which they personally don't like - they create a negative public perception and try to suppress it?

vile indeed are the behests of such democracies if indeed they are called democracies.

they should also pull out of their alliance with the u.s due to it's backward constitution since they see prohibiting the free exercise of religion via suppression as "progressive":

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"
First Amendment of the US constitution.

[Ali Mujahidin]

:sl:

Let's have some level-headed input on this. The roads, whether in Paris or in Mecca, are meant for cars and not for people to pray on. In Mecca, the jemaah can overflow into the streets for the simple reason that just about everybody who can pray is praying and not driving along the roads. In Paris, not everyone is praying. In fact, there are more people driving on the roads than there are people praying. So what is the problem with praying where praying is supposed to be, which is in the mosque and leave the roads to the cars?

I think there is a tinge of unIslamic arrogance in the attitude of any imam who says that no one can stop people from coming to his mosque to pray and if they overflow into the streets, so be it. There is such a thing in Islam as hikmah. If the jemaah in the area can't afford to get a bigger space for solah, then it simply means that the jemaah there just doesn't have the strength, both spiritually and economically, to be that big.

The example of the Holy Prophet s.a.w. had shown time and again that confrontation is not the way of Islam. The Treaty of Hudaibiyah is worth studying in regard to this matter. Here's a link to an article about this treaty:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty28.html

Sayyidina Abu Bakar r.a. is a great example of a Muslim who is brave enough not to hide his faith. Before we talk about following in his footsteps, let's ask ourselves whether we have the same spiritual strength like him in the first place. I think not! So let's not talk about encouraging anyone to do what he did. It's like telling a toddler to jump into a raging river just because there was a great swimmer who had swum across before. Doesn't seem sensible, right?

I am saying all this not because I don't love Islam. I do love Islam. It is the only love of my life. I will die rather than renounce Islam. Nevertheless that doesn't mean that I am not blind to the fact that many people who claim to be Muslims and who claim to champion the rights of Muslims are actually motivated by some very unIslamic reasons. Reasons like personal feelings of egoism and arrogance, or political agenda, or, worse yet, misguided misinterpretation of Islam.

I am fully aware that my viewpoint on this matter is not in consonance with a number of people here. But then again, I am not here to win a popularity contest, am I?

[Karl]

Europe is just a Zionist commie crapper since the fall of Christendom and the age of Kings. The French revolution destroyed France and turned it into a Godless socialist Jew ruled scumhole. Why are Muslims going there? It is a NATO militant homosexual/feminist Axis of Infidel New World Order nation at war with Islam. If you are a boot licking (moderate Muslim) you might survive there for a while but you cannot bend your knee to any one but Allah. So you have dam*ed yourself by being a boot licker and a boot licker of kafirs to boot.

[Futuwwa]

Karl, why do you speak about Socialism as if it was an un-Islamic thing?

[Abz2000]

nicely put karl :p

we are living in the age of those who were valued by the Prophet (pbuh) as his brothers - in spite of his companions:
The Prophet alayhi as salam said, “How blessed is partaking in the battle, but there is no
grave more beloved to me than being buried here (in Madina).”
So after the Prophet alayhi salam greeted the people in the graveyard, he said,
“I wish that I could see my brothers.”
The Sahaba said, “Are we not your brothers?”
He said, “No, you are my Sahabah.
But my brothers are those who come after me and believe in me, I wish that I saw them.
I shall await them at the Hawd (pool of water on the day of Judgement).”
They said, “How will you know them at the Hawd if you did not see them?”
Here the Prophet alayhi as salam said, “ Indeed my Ummah shall come on the Day of Judgement ghurran muhajjala.”
And in another narration mentioned by Imam Malik, he said, “Do you not see if you had
stallions that were entirely pure black with no other color, and one that was ghurran muhajjala, would you not recognize it?”
They said, “Yes.”
Then the Prophet alayhi as salam said, “Indeed my Ummah shall come on the Day of Judgement ghurran muhajjala.”
(was he speaking of "the strangers"?)

Here we can pause to reflect on the words of the Prophet, “You are my Sahabah. My brothers will come after me, I wish that I saw them.”
Ibn Abdul Barr mentions almost 30 pages of narrations with a similar meaning, the Prophet said,

“They will come after me, they will believe in me and they did not see me.
One of them wishes that he could see me even if he had to sacrifice all his family and wealth.”

i can understand why 'Jesus (pbuh) was taken up - the children of Israel had failed the test and the kingdom of God was about to be passed to another people.


33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,
and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures,
The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner:
this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


43Therefore say I unto you,
The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder
.
45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Matthew 21

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month.
Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence);
but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah,
to deny Him,
to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque,
and drive out its members."
Tumult and oppression are worse than fighting.
Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.
And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter;
they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,
- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Quran 2:217-218

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith,
soon will God produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,
- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters,
fighting in the way of God, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault.
That is the grace of God, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth.
And God encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
Quran 5:54

[Abz2000]

Karl, why do you speak about Socialism as if it was an un-Islamic thing?

possibly because Islam is neither capitalism nor socialism - but Islam



ever heard the story of the three blind men who wanted to know how an elephant looked like
they grabbed different parts:
one said it is something thin and flat (the ear)
another said it is thin and long (the tail)
the last one finally said "you're both wrong - it's thick and sturdy like a pillar" (the leg).

the treaty of Hudaybiyah was accepted through looking at the future positive outcomes
- it wasn't based on something that would continue to turn them from their faith.
they made the agreement of peace - and that any who will may ally with the Prophet (pbuh) with no hindrance.
that's when ambassadors were sent all over Arabia without Quraish breathing down their necks or threatening them with isolation, and it even reached the emperors of rome and persia.
it wasn't based on deterioration.

the public call of the oneness of God was made when they were less than a hundred and 'Umar (ra) said - why should we hide our faith
- they just went straight to the sacred mosque despite all the stones thrown at them.
they were a tiny percentage of the population, imagine what the Prophet (pbuh) would have done with a quarter of the earth's population and growing rapidly?
one Muslim nation is falling after another and we are waiting...............
has not the time come for us to raise our heads?

8. Their intention is to extinguish Allah.s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). 9. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). 10. O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- 11. That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! 12. He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. 13. And another (favour will He bestow,) which ye do love,- help from Allah and a speedy victory. So give the Glad Tidings to the Believers. 14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah.s helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. Quran 61:8-14

[Darth Ultor]

Abz, you're alright and all, but could you summarize your posts? Usually, if I see a long copy-paste job, I just skim through it unless it's a story.

[Futuwwa]

possibly because Islam is neither capitalism nor socialism - but Islam

That does not imply that it is unislamic. The above is an example of the false dilemma fallacy.

We are commanded by Allah to provide for everyone in the Ummah. We are forbidden from living as parasites from the work of others. Caliph Abu Bakr went to war over the refusal of some tribes to pay zakah, declaring them apostates because of it. Quite left-wing radical.

Workers of the world, la ilaha illa Allah!

[Abz2000]

if i can't back up what i say - i try to avoid saying it.
i believe it works better to allow people to look at the sources,
let those who will read it - let those who will pass by it.
it clarifies the point and leaves less room for people to argue on a single subject.

8. Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-
9. (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah. for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
Quran 22;8-9

yep - that was a copy paste too.

[Darth Ultor]

Touche. Though I generally put my sources (if I have to write something that requires research) as links. But to each his own.

[Abz2000]

islam has a free market - unlike communism and fake capitalism.

In Islam the market is to be free and permitted to respond to the natural laws of supply and demand.
Thus, when the prices became high in the Prophet's time and people asked him to fix prices for them, he replied,
Allah is the One Who fixes prices, Who withholds, Who gives lavishly, and Who provides,
and I hope that when I meet Him none of you will have a claim against me for any injustice with regard to blood or property.
(Reported by Ahmad, Abu Daoud, al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, al-Dari and Abu Y'ala.)


yet - when times became tough he allowed the pooling together of resources only in a desperate situation:

Book 1, Number 0041:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira: We were accompanying the Apostle (may peace be upon him) in a march (towards Tabuk). He (the narrator) said: The provisions with the people were almost depleted. He (the narrator) said: (And the situation became so critical) that they (the men of the army) decided to slaughter some of their camels. He (the narrator) said: Upon this Umar said: Messenger of Allah, I wish that you should pool together what has been left out of the provisions with the people and then invoke (the blessings of) Allah upon it. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) did it accordingly. He (the narrator) said: The one who had wheat in his possession came there with wheat. He who had dates with him came there with dates. And Mujahid said: He who possessed stones of dates came there with stones. I (the narrator) said: What did they do with the date-stones. They said: They (the people) sucked them and then drank water over them. He (the narrator said): He (the Holy Prophet) invoked the blessings (of Allah) upon them (provisions). He (the narrator) said: (And there was such a miraculous increase in the stocks) that the people replenished their provisions fully. He (the narrator) said: At that time he (the Holy Prophet) said: I bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am His messenger. The bondsman who would meet Allah without entertaining any doubt about these (two fundamentals) would enter heaven.

...........it was distributed by the Messenger of God - not by a corrupt politician.
and things went back to normal immediately afterwards,

but we are straying from the topic...........

[Futuwwa]

Lack of legislated price control does not in itself make a capitalistic free market economy.

That hadith isn't sahih. The invisible hand of the free market is really the hand of Allah? I'm not buying that. Sounds like something out of the mouth of Republican Jesus.

[Abz2000]

the market always levels out and fixes due to supply and demand - hoarding of goods for the purpose of monopoly and price control was forbidden by 'Umar (ra) and when something's forbidden by 'Umar - you know.................

but the market itself was free to prosper without manipulation.
it is Allah who sends the rains.

it is only today that we are seeing the catastrophic effects of market manipulation where multi-billion dollar companies are subsidised with the labour of the poor - while the poor who pay the subsidies can't afford to buy the subsidised goods anyway.
forget that for a game of commie soldiers.

and not sahih?
just because it's not in bukhari and muslim?
do you even know what sahih means?
it means authentic - not authenticated by two (respected) scholars.
there are many more hadith than those Imam Muslim (ra) and Imam Bukhari (ra) had access to.
can you name an instance where the Prophet (pbuh) fixed the prices of items in order to declare it not sahih?

anyways - this is way off topic

[Futuwwa]

Omar is not a prophet, nor is he morally infallible. And what you're talking about is private market manipulation, something that's almost inevitable in an unregulated free market. Governmental regulation and price control is yet another thing. And something that Socialism doesn't require to begin with, and which I've never supported.

Also, usury is inherent to capitalism.

[Abz2000]

he was one of the "Khulafa-ar-Rashideen"
rashid means rightly guided - and he would definitely enforce it severely if he saw it messed about.
he wouldn't go to rothschild and beg him to fix the gold price out of fear of market manipulation,
he'd tell him not to play about and would come down like a tonne of bricks,
but money talks these days huh?

let's get back to topic

[Futuwwa]

Calling him that doesn't make him infallible. But he was quite socialistic too, Arab Communists use to call Omar the first of their kind.

[Abz2000]

i said it three times before saying this:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous,
or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog,
with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

.........and i do notice your other posts................

[Futuwwa]

Coming down like a ton of bricks on a capitalist who misbehaves. Sounds radically left-wing to me :p

[Abz2000]

still obfuscating the subject is see -
the Guidance of God in Islam is not about Commie or Cappie,
republican or democrat
liberal or conservative.
left or right
it's about right and wrong.
labels don't clarify issues - they obscure them


These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority.
They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!
- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
Quran 53:23

and i still can't believe you're posting off topic after that....................

[Ramadhan]

Same here. Muslims should become creative and use the law to their advantage. If they can't pray in the streets, I'm sure they can pray in the park/mall. The Muslim community in France can get together and buy a building and turn it into a small mosque or something. There are many options to explore.

I agree. Maybe muslims in paris could work and coordinate to conduct shalah jumah in that field under the eiffel tower, or regular prayers under arc de triomphe or in the jardin de luxembourgs. More people could then see how peaceful and how God-fearing muslims are and thus would attract their attention to learn more about Islam.

And let's see how bigoted the french really are if they try also to ban them.

[Karl]

still obfuscating the subject is see -
the Guidance of God in Islam is not about Commie or Cappie,
republican or democrat
liberal or conservative.
left or right
it's about right and wrong.
labels don't clarify issues - they obscure them


These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority.
They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!
- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
Quran 53:23

and i still can't believe you're posting off topic after that....................

Well said...don't let the Marxists grind you down. Sadly Europe has been over run by them, especially in France and Scandinavia. They are the real enemy of Islam and any other religion, these State worshipers. They have infiltrated to the farthest parts of the world trying to grind down God and private property rights, parental sovereignty and all cultures to a collective state worshipping one. They are the new Beast.

[Abz2000]

those arguing about the streets and convenience don't even touch on the ADMITTED reason for doing this:

Praying in the streets of Paris is against the law starting Friday, after the interior minister warned that police will use force if Muslims, and those of any other faith, disobey the new rule to keep the French capital's public spaces secular.


the creativeness is short lived.

they came out with a host of excuses to rationalise it but admitted the reason in the title.
support their hypocrisy if you will by helping the rationalisation - but i'm telling you it is a war against Islam - you can pretend they aren't slapping you all you like by rationalising but it won't change the facts.

so first they tell us secular means separation of religion and state with all having freedom.
then they say satanism is a religion therefore ok
then they tell you it means without religion without God at all.
those of you who say God is your Ruler - should go check what ruler means
who makes the rules???
Sarkozy
and if you don't stand against that and decide to change it or leave where you can practice freely - God is not your "ruler"

[Ali Mujahidin]

:sl:

To Borther abz2000, please be kind to an old man. Your words are long and weighty and worthy, I am sure. What I am not sure is what exactly are you talking about? How about some simple English so that ThisOldMan who is a non-native English speaker may understand, too? I am assuming that you do know what you are talking about.

[FS123]

:sl:

Let's have some level-headed input on this. The roads, whether in Paris or in Mecca, are meant for cars and not for people to pray on. In Mecca, the jemaah can overflow into the streets for the simple reason that just about everybody who can pray is praying and not driving along the roads. In Paris, not everyone is praying. In fact, there are more people driving on the roads than there are people praying. So what is the problem with praying where praying is supposed to be, which is in the mosque and leave the roads to the cars?

I think there is a tinge of unIslamic arrogance in the attitude of any imam who says that no one can stop people from coming to his mosque to pray and if they overflow into the streets, so be it. There is such a thing in Islam as hikmah. If the jemaah in the area can't afford to get a bigger space for solah, then it simply means that the jemaah there just doesn't have the strength, both spiritually and economically, to be that big.

The example of the Holy Prophet s.a.w. had shown time and again that confrontation is not the way of Islam. The Treaty of Hudaibiyah is worth studying in regard to this matter. Here's a link to an article about this treaty:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty28.html

Sayyidina Abu Bakar r.a. is a great example of a Muslim who is brave enough not to hide his faith. Before we talk about following in his footsteps, let's ask ourselves whether we have the same spiritual strength like him in the first place. I think not! So let's not talk about encouraging anyone to do what he did. It's like telling a toddler to jump into a raging river just because there was a great swimmer who had swum across before. Doesn't seem sensible, right?

I am saying all this not because I don't love Islam. I do love Islam. It is the only love of my life. I will die rather than renounce Islam. Nevertheless that doesn't mean that I am not blind to the fact that many people who claim to be Muslims and who claim to champion the rights of Muslims are actually motivated by some very unIslamic reasons. Reasons like personal feelings of egoism and arrogance, or political agenda, or, worse yet, misguided misinterpretation of Islam.

I am fully aware that my viewpoint on this matter is not in consonance with a number of people here. But then again, I am not here to win a popularity contest, am I?

Well said!


-------------------------------

[Futuwwa]

and not sahih?
just because it's not in bukhari and muslim?
do you even know what sahih means?
it means authentic - not authenticated by two (respected) scholars.
there are many more hadith than those Imam Muslim (ra) and Imam Bukhari (ra) had access to.

I know what sahih means. Your hadithology may vary from mine. I'm not obliged to accept yours.

can you name an instance where the Prophet (pbuh) fixed the prices of items in order to declare it not sahih?

1. Can you name an instance where the Prophet decreed that thou shalt not interfere with the free market? Islam doesn't work on the presumption that the Prophet is presumed to agree with abz2000 in everything which he hasn't explicitly, directly commented on.

2. Price fixing by the state does not equal Socialism. You can have Socialism without price fixing, and you can have (slightly regulated) Capitalism with it. I have posted this rebuttal several times, yet you've failed to address it and ignored it, keeping parroting the same irrelevant point over again.

anyways - this is way off topic

You deride me for supposedly going off-topic, still you keep replying, and keep insisting that you get the last word, that every post you make is the final argument that settles the issue. That's highly hypocritical.

[Abz2000]

Thisoldman,
uncle, all I am saying is that it is not a convenience issue as made clear by the title,
They want to ensure that Islam is not practiced openly,
First they took your khilafah and now they're taking your Islam,
Please ponder over this video:


Don't lose heart, there are many who are awake and stirring, let us fulfil our duty.
Let Allah do the rest. Islam will return insha Allah.



If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.
Quran 9:40

172. Of those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger, even after being wounded, those who do right and refrain from wrong have a great reward;-
173. Men said to them: "A great army is gathering against you": And frightened them: But it (only) increased their Faith: They said: "For us Allah sufficeth, and He is the best disposer of affairs."
174. And they returned with Grace and bounty from Allah. no harm ever touched them: For they followed the good pleasure of Allah. And Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.
175. It is only the Evil One that suggests to you the fear of his votaries: Be ye not afraid of them, but fear Me, if ye have Faith.
Quran 3:172-175

view my newworldorder Page to understand how sarkozy works, and whom he works for,
Peace,
Abz

[Salahudeen]

This thread has served it's purpose, time for people to have a kit kat and some pop corn.

:popcorn: :popcorn::unsure::ermm::threadclo

[Ramadhan]

Please no personal insults especially to your fellow brothers, or I'll lock this thread.

[Pygoscelis]

It's sort of fundamentalist secularism, isn't it? So much for 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité` :hmm:

Depends. Is this exclusively for muslims or for all prayer? If its just muslims it isn't secularism, its Islamophobia.

I'm wondering how they would try to enforce this. Are we getting the whole story here?

If this is an outright ban on prayer outside a place of worship, even I, your most anti-religious member of the forum here, oppose it strongly and will stand with you against it.

[GuestFellow]

^ It's for all forms of prayer. It does sound like secularism but there are different forms.

Enforceability will be a problem...

[Pygoscelis]

But on the whole, the title is misleading. Prayer outside mosques isn't prohibited. Prayer in the streets is. There's a world of a difference between the two. A street is a transportation lane and a public utility. Praying in it blocks traffic. Keeping public utilities functioning is definitely a matter of state.

People are praying in the streets holding up traffic? I haven't read the article yet, but if that is true it sounds suicidal to me.

[Pygoscelis]

prayers on the sidewalk causes a real obstruction for pedestrians and people trying to get in and out of buildings.

If this is the case, don't they already have laws for obstructing traffic? Or if the prayers are loud, are there not laws against creating a nuisance? I see no reason for a special law targetting prayer specifically that wouldn't be caught by the same laws that address panhandling, street musicians, hot dog stands, etc.

[Abz2000]

It is attempting to show it is about all prayer in general,
Though it is obvious it is targeting Islam - since it is Muslim prayer that is increasing while others are emptying out - according to newspaper reports, congregation numbers in other places are dwindling.
even the newspaper report in question mentions Islam specifically.

[Futuwwa]

People are praying in the streets holding up traffic? I haven't read the article yet, but if that is true it sounds suicidal to me.

I was rather thinking about pedestrian traffic. Including into and out of buildings on the same street as the mosque.

[MSalman]

But he was quite socialistic too,

May Allah give you what you deserve!! Prove this if you are not a liar.

[MSalman]

the only times when mosques are completely full are Jumah, Ramadan & Eid. Can't the government and public be bit more accommodating and considerate? Aren't they accommodating when they have their own big festivals, sport tournaments, carnivals, stage performances etc etc? Or they could have tried to help the Muslims by other means instead of banning it out-rightly.

We need to look deep and ponder upon the essence of these bans. The point is that today they banned this, tomorrow they will ban something else and day after something else and eventually they'll say Islam is banned.

Our reality is so sad and shameful that we got people with 'Muslim' tags actually supporting and accepting these bans, instead of trying to analyze the situation & speaking against it and feeling bad for our Muslim brothers/sisters there.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:

And nudity/immodesty is an obstruction to my eyes and state of mind, but hey people adore picking and choosing.

*yawn*

[FS123]

the only times when mosques are completely full are Jumah, Ramadan & Eid. Can't the government and public be bit more accommodating and considerate? Aren't they accommodating when they have their own big festivals, sport tournaments, carnivals, stage performances etc etc? Or they could have tried to help the Muslims by other means instead of banning it out-rightly.

We need to look deep and ponder upon the essence of these bans. The point is that today they banned this, tomorrow they will ban something else and day after something else and eventually they'll say Islam is banned.

Our reality is so sad and shameful that we got people with 'Muslim' tags actually supporting and accepting these bans, instead of trying to analyze the situation & speaking against it and feeling bad for our Muslim brothers/sisters there.

Yea but what we can do? I think we should focus on dawa, the more people know about Islam the difficult it will be to pass these kinds of laws. Right now what they have created is a fear of Islam, so people see it as us vs them.

[GuestFellow]

Yea but what we can do? I think we should focus on dawa, the more people know about Islam the difficult it will be to pass these kinds of laws. Right now what they have created is a fear of Islam, so people see it as us vs them.

Asslamu Aliakum,

Some Muslims are at fault. I noticed some Muslims create this atmosphere of us vs them too. Many non-Muslims live different lives to Muslims and some of the things Muslims say can be quite offensive to non-Muslims. Some of us need to be more sensitive and take a diplomatic approach to dealing with these issues. Also, we need to appreciate that some Europeans feel change is happening too fast (e.g. immigration) and they are simply scared. I'm just speaking from experience.

[MSalman]

Yea but what we can do?

We can do a lot: speak out against it, create awareness by any effective mean, feel bad about the situation of Muslims who are affected by such laws, the least we can do is hate it in our hearts, make dua'a for those Muslims and make a general dua'a that Allah give power to righteous people within ummah.

Many of the posts in this thread by Muslims, unfortunately, show the opposite of what we are supposed to do.

I think we should focus on dawa, the more people know about Islam the difficult it will be to pass these kinds of laws.

my brother, that's fine and important; however, we need to remember that dawah to kuffaar isn't every Muhammad, Fatima, Abdullah, Aisha, Abdul Rehman, Umar's job. We first need to give dawah to ourselves, our household, relatives & friends and correct our obligatory affairs before we think about giving dawah to kuffaar. In our time, it's a fall notion circulated among the laymen that everyone must give dawah to kuffaar while many of us don't even fullfil our fard ayn, and neither have perquisite tools of giving dawah. For example, some of the people in this very thread don't even understand what being a Muslim and tawheed entail, can we then expect these people to give some sort of dawah to a kafir?

Right now what they have created is a fear of Islam, so people see it as us vs them.

Yes, fear of Islam has been created. In my humble opinion, they are just afraid of becoming decent humans because that's the fadl (benefit)/outcome of believing & practicing Islam. As far them vs us, then it has always been them vs us and it will always be like that. How can it be otherwise when they reject Islam while we believe in it!! Of course, some of them are not hostile towards us and we can live with them perfectly fine, have treaties with them, trade with them, do business transactions with them, show them kindness and gentlness etc., but it still doesn't mean that we can take them as friends or the line of us vs them vanishes. At the end of the day, they still reject Islam.

[Abz2000]

You protect the capital before the profit.
Right now the capital's being stolen in front of our eyes and we are thinking of the profit?

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:

And nudity/immodesty is an obstruction to my eyes and state of mind, but hey people adore picking and choosing.

*yawn*

Well that works in both directions really. If you can outlaw nudity in the streets (for anything other than sanitary reasons) then I don't see why you couldn't outlaw the other extreme on the same basis. I think you work against your cause when you attack this "immodesty" stuff. As soon as you get it being ok to stop people from being "immodest", you're got the basis for banning the other extreme. I say the same thing to Christian fundamentalists regarding separation of church and state. Their pushing the bible into everything is only laying the framework for muslims (who they hate) and others to do the same.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It was never us vs them kind of situation but like salman said, them vs us. Think back a little bit up until the first crusade. Ask yourself, how did it begin? Lol I'll end it here cause well, I'd be starting a whole new topic and this isn't the thread for it.

[Ramadhan]

the only times when mosques are completely full are Jumah, Ramadan & Eid. Can't the government and public be bit more accommodating and considerate? Aren't they accommodating when they have their own big festivals, sport tournaments, carnivals, stage performances etc etc? Or they could have tried to help the Muslims by other means instead of banning it out-rightly.

I just want to highlight this as this clearly shows Islamophobia on the french government part.

I've been to France and I've seen in Paris in the weekends people lining up outside clubs or piling outside on the streets and sidewalks while trying to get in clubs/bars or get out drunk, and they obstructed my path.
The french government accommodate alcohol and sex industry, why can't they accommodate people who just want to pray to God peacefully?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Well that works in both directions really. If you can outlaw nudity in the streets (for anything other than sanitary reasons) then I don't see why you couldn't outlaw the other extreme on the same basis. I think you work against your cause when you attack this "immodesty" stuff. As soon as you get it being ok to stop people from being "immodest", you're got the basis for banning the other extreme. I say the same thing to Christian fundamentalists regarding separation of church and state. Their pushing the bible into everything is only laying the framework for muslims (who they hate) and others to do the same.

Would you care to explain how that works against me in my favor because I honestly don't see that? Are u implying that covering is an extreme, when it's really not? There is no disadvantage to being modest, so I fail to understand your point.

[MSalman]

as-salaamu alaykum

Bismillah

I've been to France and I've seen in Paris in the weekends people lining up outside clubs or piling outside on the streets and sidewalks while trying to get in clubs/bars or get out drunk, and they obstructed my path.

Jazak Allah khayran for mentioning this specific point akhee. This is a weekly thing isn't if not daily. I have seen this crowd and lineups every weekend.

Some Muslims are at fault. I noticed some Muslims create this atmosphere of us vs them too.

Please elaborate and give examples.

Many non-Muslims live different lives to Muslims and some of the things Muslims say can be quite offensive to non-Muslims.

Again, please give us examples of these offensive things.

Some of us need to be more sensitive and take a diplomatic approach to dealing with these issues.

Please elaborate on this diplomatic approach. Like how exactly?

BarakAllahu feekum

[جوري]

I just want to highlight this as this clearly shows Islamophobia on the french government part.

I've been to France and I've seen in Paris in the weekends people lining up outside clubs or piling outside on the streets and sidewalks while trying to get in clubs/bars or get out drunk, and they obstructed my path.
The french government accommodate alcohol and sex industry, why can't they accommodate people who just want to pray to God peacefully?

ditto that I was really disgusted by the french bloody insufferable frogs .. couldn't wait to get out of there.. they also had very very poor hygiene, they smelled of stinky feet and unwashed urine & other things I don't want to defile this forum by making mention of.. I wondered ever since where they get the audacity to act so superior.. ^o)

[Abdul-Raouf]

They will accommodate and arrange for everything.... party.. prostitution.
Even they clear the roads and traffic.... make arrangements for a Tour de france.. Politician parade..
But when it comes to Prayer gathering by Muslims... hope it doesnt last more than 20mins... but they cant allow it.

If you are a common man...(meaning with some common sense).. All that is happening in Europe.. will give you a clear idea that - the governments are trying to restrict Islam with all possible silly reasons. Should not cover your body well.. Should not have minarets... Cant gather for prayer...


If a country is in synch with islamic law / muslim majority country and they say that - there are restrictions for non-muslims... seems understandable.
Similarly..If an European country is calling itself a "Christian republic " .. with biblical law..then its fine and understandable that they restrict other religion.But.. for the West who call themself the modern world.. democratic.. blah blah... equal rights.. human rights.. free to practice...free speech... women freedom..bringing these rules against a community ???? They are fools and they thinking others are fools - thats the worst part.

[Abz2000]

they could never have sold "secularism" as anti-religion when they introduced it into the mainstream, or their heads would have likely been on the ends of pitchforks.
they claimed it was a separation of state and religion, with all having freedom to practice - so many cheered.
now - as they slowly desensitize the people and promote all types of dirty practices - they re-interpret it as "without religion" in the hope that the stain they've put on people's hearts has hardened them from thinking.

i will paste this part and let you read the whole article on my site - it's a good read for those of us who are concerned about the situation and what it's pointing to.
it is a story of a man who grew up in nazi germany.

Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that,
unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning,
unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle,
what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to,
one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing.
One day it is over his head.
"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men?
Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now.
Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims,
Principiis obsta andFinem respice
—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’

complete story here:
http://abz2000.com/TheyThoughtTheyWereFree.aspx

[Trumble]

they could never have sold "secularism" as anti-religion when they introduced it into the mainstream, or their heads would have likely been on the ends of pitchforks.
they claimed it was a separation of state and religion, with all having freedom to practice - so many cheered.
now - as they slowly desensitize the people and promote all types of dirty practices - they re-interpret it as "without religion" in the hope that the stain they've put on people's hearts has hardened them from thinking.

True enough. It's important to distinguish secularism as an idea, which is actually highly enabling for plurality of religious freedom, and this sort of 'interpretation' which, on further reflection, I don't really think is 'secularist' at all.. it's just plain Islamophobia.

[Ali Mujahidin]

:sl:
@abz2000
Thank you for the video. I have only watched the first 10 minutes. Downloading and saving it for viewing later. I think I get your point. Here's my take on your viewpoint.

1. The last Caliphate lost not because the enemies were strong but because the Muslims had become weak. Remember that during the time of the sahabah r.a., the Muslims had gained victory in the face of overwhelming odds. Out-manned and ill-equipped the Muslims still won. Why? Because they were fighting for Allah and for Islam.

Now compare the outcome of the Battle of Badr and the Battle of Uhud.

In the second battle, the Muslims lost. Why? One reason was that they did not obey the Holy Prophet's orders totally without question. They left their post when they had been told to stand fast no matter what happened. The other reason was that they were tempted by the spoils of war, the siren call of duniawi.

The same thing is happening today. Leaders who claim to be champion Islam are merely doing so to gain the support of the people. What these leaders really wanted was not to fight for Islam but rather to use Islam to further their own selfish ends.

For example, I once heard that if all the Muslims in the Arabian peninsula were united in the cause of Islam, the Jews in Israel would be a thing of the past. The number of Muslims compared to the Jews there is so overwhelming that it was said bullets wouldn't be needed to annihilate the Jews. Just one mouthful of spit from each and every Muslim there would have been enough to drown all the Jews.

Yet, that tiny, puny little state of Israel is able to bully the Muslims there at will. Why? Because the Muslims there have forgotten about Allah and Islam and are too busy fighting for the cause of assobiyah. They are fighting in the name of their race and in the name of their nation. So how do they expect to win?

2. They can never take Islam from the hearts of the true believers. It is the Muslims themselves who have given up Islam. How so? One insidious poison working to destroy the very fabric of the Muslim way of life is the call for reformation. Seriously, how can you change something that is perfect without degrading it? Have we all forgotten that Allah declared in verse 3 of surah Maidah:

"... This day I have perfected for you your religion..." (rough translation, please refer to original Arabic for full meaning)?

I stand steadfast on my personal viewpoint that whosoever calls for the reformation of Islam is simply saying that Allah has lied. How preposterous a presumption! How idiotic to think that mere mortals can improve on what Allah had perfected!

I digress. Back on topic.

The way I see it, those people who are Muslims in France are mostly not indigenous natives. They are immigrants. They did not migrate to France in the name of Islam. They went there to seek duniawi. To put it bluntly, they went there looking for filthy lucre. Consider this:

Say you go to the house of a non-Muslim. He lets you in. Then when it is time for solah, you spread your sujaddah in the middle of the living room right between your host and the tv he is watching. Does this make sense? In the first place, what are you doing in the house of the non-Muslim? And if you want to perform solah, is it not sensible to do it in a quiet corner of his house after asking his permission?

Please understand that I am not saying Muslims should not stand up for their rights. What I am saying is to stop making ridiculous demands. The house of Arqam bin Abi al-Arqam, by Allah's will, had been given to us as an example of what to do in situations like this.

I think I should pause for breath here. WaLLahu aklam.

[Abz2000]

then we need to acknowledge that people who believe in God are foreigners in France regardless of their nationality, since it's "their house".
we can't live as tenants forever - we need to build a house where we can serve God without let or hindrance.
and a nation that will respond if any of our brothers and sisters are illegally invaded.
we are the strangers
and the strangers shall succeed.

this is not aimed at you - since you acknowledge there is a difference which we have not created, it is however enlightening and educational
:

[GuestFellow]

This is a great opportunity for Muslims to influence the French government. Muslims should get together and try to put pressure on the government to stop these kinds of ban.

[Crystal]

I don't agree with the ban but I don't think French people know enough about Islam or perhaps they read newspapers too much and also they are very nationalistic.

However I do wonder if a Christian/Jew was praying in the street in Saudi Arabia would you all still have the same views?

[GuestFellow]

^ It depends on how you see it. The EU countries boast about the freedom to practice your religion. The French government has banned Muslims praying in the streets. The question that needs to be raised is whether France is following the European Convention of Human Rights.

[Al-Mufarridun]

However I do wonder if a Christian/Jew was praying in the street in Saudi Arabia would you all still have the same views?

Comparing Paris to Saudi Arabia, is like comparing Cairo to the Vatican.

[Crystal]

Like I said I don't agree with France I find their policies in general very racist and I am glad I don't live there.

And my point isn't really the government of Saudi its more would you as a Muslim allow a Christian/Jew to pray in your street where ever you come from?

[جوري]

And my point isn't really the government of Saudi its more would you as a Muslim allow a Christian/Jew to pray in your street where ever you come from?

How do Christians pray?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I don't agree with the ban but I don't think French people know enough about Islam or perhaps they read newspapers too much and also they are very nationalistic.

However I do wonder if a Christian/Jew was praying in the street in Saudi Arabia would you all still have the same views?

What kind of a comparison is that and what are you implying? Saudi Arabia is a country based on religion, France is a secular country. You can't compare the two. Secular countries don't put religion at the top of the list but claim religious freedom, so what is France doing?

[جوري]

What kind of a comparison is that and what are you implying? Saudi Arabia is a country based on religion, France is a secular country. You can't compare the two. Secular countries don't put religion at the top of the list but claim religious freedom, so what is France doing?

I disagree that Saudi is a country based on religion. KSA is a monarchy which isn't Islamic.. be that as it may I am still curious as to how Christians pray.. I hardly see them go to houses of worship let alone offer prayers to want to offer it in the streets of Saudi Arabia..

:w:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I disagree that Saudi is a country based on religion. KSA is a monarchy which isn't Islamic.. be that as it may I am still curious as to how Christians pray.. I hardly see them go to houses of worship let alone offer prayers to want to offer it in the streets of Saudi Arabia..

:w:

:sl: sis :P

I never said Saudi Arabia is Islamic. No Muslim country is, quite frankly. Saudi Arabia still has religion playing some role, France doesn't have any. This is the comparison I was making, I guess it's not noticeable. Whether Saudi Arabia is a monarch or not had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make

:w: :D

[جوري]

:sl: sis :P

I never said Saudi Arabia is Islamic. No Muslim country is, quite frankly. Saudi Arabia still has religion playing some role, France doesn't have any. This is the comparison I was making, I guess it's not noticeable. Whether Saudi Arabia is a monarch or not had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make

:w: :D

got you.. but secularism is an ideology and a belief system all its own and has quite the rabid zealots.. I don't know of any country in the world that restricts prayers.. Our next door neighbors in Riyadh Saudi Arabia were Lebanese Christians .. I have never seen them pray inside their home let alone outside of it.. I did see them celebrate Christmas though and that's is why I asked how Christians would pray in Public?
It is clear to me that the law is only aimed at Muslims in a country that alleges 'freedom' 'democracy' and all other such pretty nonsense ..
freedom to express their views and support their parties does seem to poke fun at the very definitions of the terms. I do agree with you in said regards..

:w:

[GuestFellow]

How do Christians pray?

I think they read the Bible...though good question.

Like I said I don't agree with France I find their policies in general very racist and I am glad I don't live there.

And my point isn't really the government of Saudi its more would you as a Muslim allow a Christian/Jew to pray in your street where ever you come from?

In an Islamic country, Christian and Jews would not be allowed to pray in the streets. I suppose it could be seen as promoting your religion. However, Christian and Jews are allowed to build their own religious buildings.

What kind of a comparison is that and what are you implying? Saudi Arabia is a country based on religion, France is a secular country. You can't compare the two. Secular countries don't put religion at the top of the list but claim religious freedom, so what is France doing?

Some people have argued that Muslims can't complain that they are not allowed to pray in the streets. This is because Muslims don't allow Jews and Christians to pray in the streets. It would be seen as hypocrisy. I think that is what she meant.

[جوري]

I think they read the Bible...though good question.

They could read the bible on the streets if they can walk and read at the same time..
I haven't seen any restrictions on getting people to pray.. most people including many Muslims don't like to pray, they see it as a chore..
I felt the comparison failed even if it were to make an analogy on how intolerant we're otherwise for the simple reason that there's nothing comparable to Islamic prayers.. and the one video I have linked to a Jew praying, was identical to Muslims that I don't think (regular secular folks) would notice the difference..

[MSalman]

How do Christians pray?

BarakAllahu feekee - masha'Allah, a very good question; reminds me of other question, directed to a deviant Muslim group, "who said Alif Lam Meem?". We have seen the objections "why are you Muslims complaining about your rights in the west, an Islamic state doesn't allow other religions to pray in public, for example" way too many times. So how exactly do Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists pray?

[GuestFellow]

^ There is a video of a Jewish man praying.

[Futuwwa]

I randomly encountered the following picture of congregants spilling out into the streets for salah. Definitely looks like something that clogs up traffic. It's from an anti-Islamic website though so take it for what it's worth.

[Crystal]

I don't consider myself a Catholic but I know how they pray as a Catholic because I was raised as one and it is just by saying prayers and blessing yourself like in the name of the father, son and holy spirit and you can pray anywhere. And I also am against the fact that France says they are based on freedom but don't seem to show this in their policies.

In an Islamic country, Christian and Jews would not be allowed to pray in the streets.

Thanks Tragic Typos for the straight forward answer.

[Abz2000]

let's be courteous with novice because he's asking valid questions and is willing to see both sides of an argument.

let's get this clear, i mentioned how secularism was sold to the people in a post above:
A secular state is a concept of secularism, whereby a state or country purports to be
officially neutral in matters of religion,
supporting neither religion nor irreligion.
A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion/nonreligion over other religions/nonreligion.

a real Islamic country is very different, it says it is Islamic and thereby holds to those ideals - it does not pretend to be balanced in terms of faith while pushing a different agenda.

what we see with these so called "secular democratic" countries is that they base their claims on total falsehood and hypocrisy.
they don't claim to be anti-God due to the backlash they'll receive while they prove themselves to be such by their actions.

one of my nephews told me that my website is not neutral and shows itself to have an agenda - i said it isn't neutral and does have an agenda,
even that war criminal bush said "and we know that God is not neutral between good and evil".

yet you have sites like bbc, fox news, cnn claiming to be "fair and balanced" while everybody on the planet knows they are not.

And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!
28. Shall We treat those who believe and do righteous good deeds, as those who wreak corruption on earth? Or shall We treat the righteous, as the criminals?
29. (This is) a Book (the Qur'an) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember.
Quran 38:27-29

look at both hands

scroll to 33 seconds - watch carefully the hand signs:




we can see there seems to be a lot more to it than freedom and neutrality.

this subject is extensive - you can visit my nwo page for more details:

http://abz2000.com/newworldorder.aspx

[جوري]

blessing yourself like in the name of the father, son and holy spirit and you can pray anywhere.

& thank you for your honest answer!

best,

[Aprender]

let's be courteous with novice because he's asking valid questions and is willing to see both sides of an argument.

let's get this clear, i mentioned how secularism was sold to the people in a post above:
A secular state is a concept of secularism, whereby a state or country purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion. A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion/nonreligion over other religions/nonreligion.

a real Islamic country is very different, it says it is Islamic and thereby holds to those ideals - it does not pretend to be balanced in terms of faith while pushing a different agenda.

what we see with these so called "secular democratic" countries is that they base their claims on total falsehood and hypocrisy.
they don't claim to be anti-God due to the backlash they'll receive while they prove themselves to be such by their actions.

one of my nephews told me that my website is not neutral and shows itself to have an agenda - i said it isn't neutral and does have an agenda,
even that war criminal bush said "and we know that God is not neutral between good and evil".

yet you have sites like bbc, fox news, cnn claiming to be "fair and balanced" while everybody on the planet knows they are not.

And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!
28. Shall We treat those who believe and do righteous good deeds, as those who wreak corruption on earth? Or shall We treat the righteous, as the criminals?
29. (This is) a Book (the Qur'an) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember.
Quran 38:27-29

watch carefully the hand signs:




this subject is extensive - you can visit my nwo page for more details:

http://abz2000.com/newworldorder.aspx

It's the same sign non-Muslims around here hold up at me now that I wear hijab.

[Abz2000]

and yes - the prophets did pray outside in public places and did prostrate:

Matthew 26:36-46 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

[جوري]

and yes - the prophets did pray outside in public places and did prostrate:

Matthew 26:36-46 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

what you're trying to say is like the Muslim prayer, Jewish and christian prayer involves the same act or should involve the same, except that others forgo the proper prayer in favor of paganistic rituals of 'self blessing' or abandoned it all together..

:w:

[Abz2000]

without going into an attack, yes, there are numerous instances still recorded in the bible where it is shown that this is how the prophets prayed:

And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:3-4

And they fell on their faces (FOF)

1. Genesis 17:3
   "And Abram fell on his face."
2. Genesis 17:17
   "Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed."
3. Leviticus 9:24
   "When all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces."
4. Numbers 14:5
   "Moses and Aaron fell on their faces."
5. Numbers 16:4
   "And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face."
6. Numbers 16:22
   "And they fell upon their faces."
7. Numbers 16:45
   "And they fell upon their faces."
8. Numbers 20:6
   "And they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them."
9. Numbers 22:31
   "Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he ... fell flat on his face."
10. Joshua 5:14
    "And Joshua fell on his face."
11. Joshua 7:6
    "And Joshua ... fell to the earth upon his face."
12. Judges 13:20
    "The angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife ... fell on their faces."
13. Ruth 2:10
    "Then she fell on her face."
14. 1 Samuel 20:41
    "David ... fell on his face."
15. 2 Samuel 9:6
    "He fell on his face."
16. 2 Samuel 14:4
    "She fell on her face."
17. 2 Samuel 18:28
    "And he fell ... upon his face."
18. 1 Kings 18:7
    "He ... fell on his face."
19. 1 Kings 18:39
    "He ... fell on his face."
20. 1 Chronicles 21:16
    "Then David and the elders ... fell on their faces."
21. Ezekiel 1:27-28
    "I saw ... the appearance of his loins... And when I saw it, I fell upon my face."
22. Ezekiel 3:23
    "Behold, the glory of the Lord stood there ... and I fell on my face."
23. Ezekiel 9:8
    "While they were slaying them ... I fell on my face."
24. Ezekiel 11:3
    "Then fell I down upon my face."
25. Ezekiel 43:3
    "I fell upon my face."
26. Ezekiel 44:4
    "Behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face."
27. Daniel 2:46
    "King Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel."
28. Daniel 8:17
    "I was afraid, and fell upon my face."
29. Matthew 17:6
    "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face."
30. Matthew 26:39
    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face."
31. Luke 5:12
    "A man full of leprosy... fell on his face."
32. Revelation 7:11
    "All the angels ... and the four beasts ... fell before the throne on their faces."
33. Revelation 11:16
    "The four and twenty elders ... fell upon their faces."

does it sound like they just passed out flat on their faces - or that it was a method of prayer?

[MSalman]

Let's keep the other religions' prayer issue to minimum in this thread insha'Allah. Maybe mods can move those posts to another thread so we discuss it freely.

I randomly encountered the following picture of congregants spilling out into the streets for salah. Definitely looks like something that clogs up traffic. It's from an anti-Islamic website though so take it for what it's worth.

tell me what's the point of your post? Do you want me to show you the pictures when parades, pubs, sport events, music/movie events and other rituals clog the streets? Instead of trying to expose their hypocrisy and show enmity towards their ban, you are actually supporting it over, over and over again. Tell me how exactly are you a Muslim? Do you realize that your actions are exactly the same as the munafiqeen at the times of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam)?

Didn't you read the words of Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) that Muslim ummah is like a body and if part of it gets hurt then the whole body feels the pain? Fear Allah and have some husn al-dhan, hayaah and gheerah for Islam and Muslims.

[Pygoscelis]

Mantises, Prey for your Soles!

[Abz2000]

the reason i went into detail on the method of prayer through the ages was in response to futuwwa's picture (taken from the back), which was from an anti-Islamic site. just so the "backward" jokes are kept silenced.

[Ramadhan]

but I don't think French people know enough about Islam or perhaps they read newspapers too much and also they are very nationalistic.

You gotta be joking right?
French people don't know enough about Islam?
The french have known Islam since the time they sent their crusaders to slaughter women and children and make Jerusalem knee deep in blood.
You also didn't know that French invaded and colonised muslim countries such as Algier, Morocco, Tunisia for a century?
You also didn't know that Islam is the second largest religion and increasing rapidly (with ets. between 5 to 10% population) in france and that muslims are undoubtedly the largest practicing religion followers in france (as most of the catholics are not practicing)?
Also this ban didn't come from the "french people", it was drafted and enacted by its government.

However I do wonder if a Christian/Jew was praying in the street in Saudi Arabia would you all still have the same views?

Again, you gotta be joking right?
KSA (kingdom of saudi arabia for you) NEVER claim to be a "democratic" country that "respect every individual and groups rights", while France claims to be a democratic country and is proud of its "Liberte, egalite, fraternite" and claim to give equal rights to everyone. KSA is consistent, while France is not.

[Ramadhan]

I randomly encountered the following picture of congregants spilling out into the streets for salah. Definitely looks like something that clogs up traffic. It's from an anti-Islamic website though so take it for what it's worth.

http://<img src="http://tundratabloi..."" border="0">

and yet, this type of debauchery that clogs up traffic is condoned by france government.

http://shaybonder.com/omri/ziv koren....parade-02.jpg

Futuwwa, I am confused whether you just want to be devil's advocate or do you actually believe the lies that the french govt spew?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Or this https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xLzrb3TnoMY/TdFfdQxXeHI/AAAAAAAAAxw/RhH_OQndb1M/s576/LOSCsupportersonruemessina.jpg

This is in Lille, France I believe. Crowded streets outside a bar over a game. People screaming n honking their cars. That's disturbing too.

Islamaphobia it is!

[Abz2000]

This is what the government help block the streets and put locals to inconvenience for:


i removed the offensive video and decided not to portray lewdness and sodomy outdoors, decency is however welcome

and put this instead

russian sodomites go to paris to protest against suppression

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ what cracks me up is that they think they look cool doing all that and acting the way the do LOL. they look stupid and only making a fool out of themselves.

Anyways I find it hard to believe that some Muslims say they are Muslims but don't understand the very essence of acting like one.

If you think that this has nothing to do with attacking our deen, then I wonder what really goes through your mind (not mentioning anyone in specific).

[Abz2000]

he actually lobbies other governments for suppression of open homosexuality,
while at home doing his best to make sure believers in God are kept hidden from sight - does he believe it's shameful to pray to God in France?

In 2007, French President Nicolas Sarkozy lobbied the then Russian President Vladimir Putin on the “violent repression of a recent gay rights parade in Moscow”, it has emerged through a leaked memo from the US Embassy in Paris to the State Department in Washington.
The memo followed a dinner meeting on the evening of June 12, 2007, between Under Secretary Burns from the US Department of State and Gerard Araud, the political director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, together with their respective officials.
Damien Loras, Americas Advisor at the Elysee, is reported as saying in the leaked secret memo, published on WikiLeaks, that in a meeting between the presidents of France and Russia, “Sarkozy [was] seeking to develop a positive relationship with Putin, but without significant success to date. In their meeting, Sarkozy had raised with Putin human rights concerns, including the situation in Chechnya, the violent repression of a recent gay rights parade in Moscow, and the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya. Putin reacted by attacking human rights (prison conditions) in France”.
This meeting was shortly after violence erupted at Moscow Gay Pride on May 27, 2007, with UK human rights activist Peter Tatchell a victim of unprovoked violence when he was pinched in the face by an anti-gay thug who the police could not identify despite TV footage and press agency photos of the assault.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Blatant hypocrites. Filthy newbs...

[جوري]

we should remove all this nakedness I am offended by it..
:w:

[Trumble]

You gotta be joking right?
French people don't know enough about Islam?
The french have known Islam since the time they sent their crusaders to slaughter women and children and make Jerusalem knee deep in blood.
You also didn't know that French invaded and colonised muslim countries such as Algier, Morocco, Tunisia for a century?
You also didn't know that Islam is the second largest religion and increasing rapidly (with ets. between 5 to 10% population) in france and that muslims are undoubtedly the largest practicing religion followers in france (as most of the catholics are not practicing)?

I think it's your post that's the joke. What on earth do the Crusades and French colonialism have to do with the knowledge modern French have about Islam? Likewise, what do the numbers have to do with it? They are pretty local anyway, and even in the cities there are large numbers of French who have no regular contact with muslims at all. And who says those who do sit down and talk religion?

[Ramadhan]

I think it's your post that's the joke.

Coming from you, I take it as a compliment :)
(btw, do you want to address the second part of my joke post? about the differences in government types between saudi an france?)

What on earth do the Crusades and French colonialism have to do with the knowledge modern French have about Islam? Likewise, what do the numbers have to do with it? They are pretty local anyway, and even in the cities there are large numbers of French who have no regular contact with muslims at all. And who says those who do sit down and talk religion?

Because that means the french have learnt at least in school about Islam through their own history. Or are you saying the french never had any history lesson of their own? Also, the large percentage of French muslims mean they are visible at least in the cities where it matters with respect to the legislation.
Saying the french don't know much about Islam would be as absurd as saying that the Indians don't know much about Islam.
I actually give the french some credit, but of course you are right, there bound to be some french who even after years of being a member of Islamic forums still don't know much about Islam, like you for example.
(I wonder if your post was actually a reflection of your own self).

[MSalman]

as-salaamu alaykum

Bismillah

Jazakmu Allahu khayran to those who posted pictures of streets being clogged by their own people. Just a quick reminder, posting pictures is fine but little warning about uncovered women would be beneficial.

The gay protests reminds about protests. What about protests which clog the streets, causes a havoc etc.; hence, nuisance for pedestrians, for example?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^The picture I posted had both. It spills out from the building into the sidewalks and then into the streets.

[Abz2000]

these are criminals - logical arguments don't make sense to them anyway.
question is - how do we change it - or where do we set up so people can flock to decency?

[Ali Mujahidin]

these are criminals - logical arguments don't make sense to them anyway.
question is - how do we change it - or where do we set up so people can flock to decency?

:sl:

Now we are getting somewhere.

Seriously speaking, if wild wolves were to massacre my sheep, I wouldn't waste time cursing the wolves because cursing them won't change them in the slightest bit. If I had the means, I would hunt them down one by one. If not, I will concentrate on making my sheep pen more wolf-proof. Or if that's not possible, then I will look for somewhere safer to relocate my sheep.

WaLLahu aklam.

[جوري]

^^ Cursing the wolves isn't without its benefits you know in terms of therapeutics.. then you can move on with other tactics.. I have been personally looking for a fur stole for a while and prefer the hunt than to pay for one..:D

[Ali Mujahidin]

^^ Cursing the wolves isn't without its benefits you know in terms of therapeutics.. then you can move on with other tactics.. I have been personally looking for a fur stole for a while and prefer the hunt than to pay for one..:D

:sl:

To hunt wolves, we must first get some guns. Doubt if we are going to get anywhere with just our bare hands.

[Abz2000]

strive and raise those bare hands up to the One Who can make them come your way while striving.

nation shall rise against nation - many guns will become available.

it's the firm heart and determination we need.