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Ramadhan
09-28-2011, 01:27 AM
There are so many things about Islam that I like, and one of those is that Islam has satisfying answers/explanations for other faiths.
For example: Islam explains in details who Jesus (pbuh) and what message he brought etc.
Meanwhile, while I know that many christians have always attacked Islam, I have not yet heard/read any explanations the christians give for Islam and Muhammad (SAW), which I find very strange, to put it mildly.
If all of christianity is from God, surely it also gives accounts for Islam and Muhammad (SAW) who claimed that he was sent by the same God that sent Jesus (pbuh), and who worshiped the same god that Jesus (pbuh) worship?

So, I am interested to get answers from other non-muslims here about accounts/explanations that their religion/faith for Islam and Muhammad (SAW).
This has been on my mind for quite a while actually.
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Aprender
09-28-2011, 03:37 AM
When I was a Christian I was taught that Islam was a religion sent to derail people from the true path of God. That Muhammad (pbuh) listened to the whispers of Satan and that's why there are a few scientific things in the Qur'an to make it sound like it's the right religion.

As a Christian I was taught that the God of Islam is not the same God of Judaism and Christianity and everyone who follows anything other than Judaism or Christianity will burn forever. But in stricter circles of Christianity, it's pretty much that if you're not a Christian then you have no chance. I was told that Islam offers no salvation for people because it teaches that its followers can only get into Paradise by doing good deeds and good deeds alone won't save you. I was taught that it was a disgusting oppressive religion that brainwashes people into hurting others and doing evil things. That it was spread by the sword, that women are there only for the pleasure and enjoyment of men but people stay with it because they're trapped or possessed by evil and Christianity is the only way to break free from it.

To sum it up, the Christian explanation for why Islam is there is to derail humanity from the true path of God which I was told is Christianity.

I hope I understood your question correctly.
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Ramadhan
09-28-2011, 04:29 AM
:sl: Aprender
and thank you for explanation.

Actually, I've heard about those charges, but what I am more interested in is whether those accusations and charges are backed up by their books and scriptures. I'd like to know what the books of christianity (or any other faith) explain Islam.

In the same vein, any muslim could also easily say "christianity are from the devil ... etc.." but that is not exactly what Qur'an and ahadeeth explain about christianity, and in this section there have been hundred of threads and thousands of posts that elucidate christianity and explanations from Islam, based on Qur'an and ahadeeth.
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Aprender
09-28-2011, 05:04 AM
Yes, here I will quote some verses in the Bible for you that Christians use to say that Islam is a false religion. Now understand that none of this gets into specifics and could be used to explain problems within Christianity itself but this is what is quoted to outright say that Islam is a false religion. Any Biblical scholar could explain these verses to the time and place that they apply but people use this to apply to modern times as well.

Matthew 7:15
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
I don't think I have to explain why some would apply this to Muhammad(pbuh).

Deuteronomy 4:2
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Some Christians see the Qur'an as an attempt to add to the Word of God.

Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Some Christians will use this as an example as the why the Muslim world is not so stable right now.

Matthew 24:10-14
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Don't think I have to explain how some Christians would say this correlates to the current state of world at the moment.

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2:17-22
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

I could go on writing more and more Bible verses like this but I don't really know of any quotes that specifically relate to Muslims that are really a justification for condemning Islam other than what Christians say of Islam as a false religion and how some verses in the Bible can be used to relate to what Islam has become today. Maybe someone else on here can give you more to talk about it. All that I was taught was just a matter of opinion. When I asked the question WHY are Muslims bad? Why is Islam a false religion? I always got the answer because Muslims reject Jesus (pbuh) as their savior and reject him as God which is against the right path. Nothing else needed to be said. There didn't need to be specific quotes from the Bible to support that.
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جوري
09-28-2011, 05:11 AM
How do christian justify the 'sainthood' of Paul? he in fact did all the above.. he & a whole bunch of other creative writers in fact (titus) included & especially so those views on circumcision ;D ..:hmm:
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Aprender
09-28-2011, 05:35 AM
With Paul it was one of those things that was just accepted. Asking questions like this is something that wasn't really encouraged because it could lead you away from the religion. This is what I was told many times so I was careful. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could explain how Paul is accepted as a saint. The brand of Christianity that I followed didn't really stress the importance of people who were declared saints. They were just nice people. Nothing more. Nothing to really study.

As a Christian the other prophets weren't really that important in the way I was taught either. In fact, in some cases, prophets like Solomon (pbuh) were made fun of and made as an example of what not to do because he had multiple wives. In Christianity it's all about Jesus, pbuh. He can do no wrong. He is the truth. He is god or at least the son and to someone who really believes that in their heart it's difficult to untangle whatever justification they have for it beyond that and they won't let go no matter what you tell them. Islam just is not and will might not ever be a factor.

The terrible things that Muhammad (pbuh) is said to have done just runs too deep in the narrative that I was taught about Islam. The whole thing with the pedophilia (I really hate to write that here), the hatred, that it's a pagan religion, worshiping the sun, moon and stars, and that there is no real proof that the Qur'an has never been corrupted or changed, the whole idea about "The Satanic verses". Or how the Qur'an never says that Allah is the actual name of God like Yahweh is named but a variation of one of the pagan gods, that Muhammad (pbuh) could read, that he stole these ideas from Christianity, etc... I was taught more about ALL of that before I was taught about anything in the actual beliefs of Muslims which is why I was disgusted and utterly repulsed by Islam for many, many years. All of that would send anyone away from it and I'm sorry to say that most people probably wouldn't look into it again after that and many don't. The forces against discrediting Islam as a legitimate religion are strong. Although, I think proving that Islam isn't a real religion might come from more outside sources than quotes from the Bible but I guess that is what makes it even more solid for some people. Some of the ideas used to discredit Muhammad (pbuh) as a prophet are also used to discredit the Mormon Joseph Smith.

I hope maybe someone else can explain all of this better for your question. I'm just sharing my experience with you here.
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Amigo
09-28-2011, 07:54 AM
Islam is the spirit(uality) of Hagar and her descendants. Mohammad is her son who magnified it most and initiated its spread in the whole world.
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Aprender
09-28-2011, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Islam is the spirit(uality) of Hagar and her descendants. Mohammad is her son who magnified it most and initiated its spread in the whole world.
Now let's be clear to point out that Hagar, peace be upon her, is not his biological mother. But I can understand where this argument comes from as well, especially with Hajj and everything. I was taught in some circles that Muhammad (pbuh) never really participated in Hajj and that it was just there take control of Mecca from the paganism and to pay homage to what Hagar went through to make it look legitimate.

I've also heard that Muhammad's (pbuh) wife Khadijah (pbuh) was a strict monotheist and her family put this whole idea into his head to get everyone away from the paganism and that is why Islam is not really a continuation of Judaism and Christianity since the previous knowledge was there with others helping/surrounding him. He was just the puppet to get it done. I was taught in public school that it was kids or a servant that was whispering to Muhammad (pbuh) in the cave on that day and not the angel Gabriel. There was no text to back that up, just what the teacher said to the class.

But like I said, most of these stories are the opinions of others that I was taught growing up. Not sure most of the sources it is based on but it seems to be outside sources from what I can tell. Sometimes textbooks from authors who hate Islam etc.
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جوري
09-28-2011, 03:34 PM
oh is Hagar also meant to be something abominable to Christians?

an Egyptian princess whom Pharaoh king of Egypt gave to Sarah as a gift. She grew up in the home of Abraham and Sarah, and converted. Sarah initially had to persuade Hagar to marry Abraham.
This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/...sh-and-aggadah

btw according to the bible Sarah is Abraham's sister.. we've all seen the bible endorse incest anyway with lot before so why not Abraham as well

also how old was Mary when 'God' came to announce that he's about to impregnate her with himself? for that matter how old was she and how old was Joseph?

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.Matthew 1:18


Regarding the Marriage of Mary to Joseph, Catholic Encyclopaedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm), says:


"When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place."

btw the age of consent here in the U.S in 15 in such states as Delaware was 7..

so who is the hypocrite here save for Jews & Christians.. Every pagan practice incestuous and bizarre relationship does indeed emanate from them and in order to deflect that they project it unto Muslims.

btw Apprender I wouldn't say people don't care about Islam unless they were Muslims. Even the Vatican were complaining as to how we are growing and outnumbering them

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/0...68682420080330

if they're making you feel otherwise.. Know that it is the desperation of an ailing old devil who wants to go attacking every which way and only appeals to like minded idiots ..

best

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Salahudeen
09-28-2011, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

As a Christian I was taught that the God of Islam is not the same God of Judaism and Christianity and everyone who follows anything other than Judaism or Christianity will burn forever. But in stricter circles of Christianity, it's pretty much that if you're not a Christian then you have no chance. I was told that Islam offers no salvation for people because it teaches that its followers can only get into Paradise by doing good deeds and good deeds alone won't save you. I was taught that it was a disgusting oppressive religion that brainwashes people into hurting others and doing evil things. That it was spread by the sword, that women are there only for the pleasure and enjoyment of men but people stay with it because they're trapped or possessed by evil and Christianity is the only way to break free from it.

To sum it up, the Christian explanation for why Islam is there is to derail humanity from the true path of God which I was told is Christianity.

I hope I understood your question correctly.
I find it quite funny Christians spread these things about other religions yet in their own societies they have these exact problems, women are there for the pleasure and enjoyment of men very much in the west, the adult film industry for instance, the naked women in TV commercials selling a product, the women who has to tart her self up and wear a shorter skirt than all the competitors to improve her chances of getting a job and pleasing the interviewer if he's male, tbh all I see is prostitution in various formats, some forms of prostitution have been made to look appropriate such as a woman selling a product on TV whilst wearing hardly anything, what I see is a woman taking her clothes off for the camera for some money how degrading, I don't see how this is any different from approaching a prostitute on the street and paying her money to look her, how about all the disgusting music videos where women run around naked, they're forced to do this because if they didn't no one would watch their music video or it wouldn't get as much attention so she's prostituting herself again in order to get more viewers this is how I see it, so I find it quite hypocritical that Christians say this yet they live in a society that legalizes disgusting filthy stuff.

I really am surprised women in the west haven't woken up to how they're nothing more than sexual objects in the modern world, just look at all the magazine covers, the sad thing is, there is even no regulations so young people are not even protected from being brain washed by the increasing sexuality of music videos and tv shows/ads, the result is a society where 13 year olds are sexually active and becoming pregnant

I mean what kind of world do these people live in. I don't see how they're liberated when they sell their bodies whether it be on a street corner, legalized adult movie, TV ad because men will only think of her in one way and that is an object for sex. What kind of liberation is this, more like slave to the desires of men but doesn't even realize it, that's how I view women in the western world,
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Salahudeen
09-28-2011, 05:57 PM
The paedophilia accusation is the most hypocritical accusation of all and quite comical that people lack the intelligence that they are unable to comprehend that 1400 years ago the world was a different place, I mean I figured this out by myself and I'm not even that clever, It literally took me 30 mins of thinking before I concluded that it's a mistake to compare today's society and culture to that of 1400 years ago, and just because this society thinks something is correct doesn't mean it is, I mean this society is hardly the model society is it, when it becomes the model society then they can go round criticizing other societies around the world where girls get married young but until then they should learn to shut up, they set the legal age of consent at 18 but no one actually obeys this age of consent lol look up teenage pregnancies, not so long ago the age of consent in the west was 13, so 13 year olds were free to engage in relationships with men of any age, they raised it to 18 not so long ago that's just in the UK, in some other Euro countries it's still quite low at 13-14 which means its legal for men of any age to engage in relationships with them, cos they've reached the age of consent.

This will be a very informative read for you.


Introduction

Islamaphobes claim that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a pedophile, arguing that he married Aisha (peace be upon her) when she was too young. Islamic Law (Shari’ah), say these critics, condones pedophilia by allowing marriage to children. Most of these Islamaphobes come from Jewish and Christian backgrounds. Yet, the truth is that these Jews and Christians live in a great big glass house; in this book, we will throw stones at this house and completely shatter it.

Islamic Law (Shari’ah) does in fact allow some nine year old girls to be married. But as we shall prove in this book, Jewish Law (Halacha) sets the minimum age of marriage at three years of age, whereas Christian Law asserts that the absolute minimum age of marriage is seven years old.

First, we will cite the Jewish and Christian Law from a theological standpoint. Then, we will establish the historical proof that Jews and Christians routinely married their daughters off at an extremely young age—younger than Aisha (peace be upon her). After this, we will cite numerous examples of Christian prophets, saints, popes, kings, royals, and nobles who either themselves married girls of such a young age or who actively condoned it.

After having dealt with the Jewish and Christian criticism, we will shift our focus to the rest of the world, proving that marriage at such a young age was something considered normal in all ancient civilizations. We will cite so many examples from so many cultures that it will leave the staunchest Islamaphobes at a loss for words. Finally, we will look at the Islamic Law, the Prophet’s marriage to Aisha (peace be upon her), and the medico legal aspects of pedophilia.

The honest reader will become convinced, the stubborn opponent will be routed, and the truth-seeker will be guided to the path of Islam. God Willing.Ya Allah (O God), sharpen my pen and make my task easy.


Age of Marriage Under Jewish Law

The Jewish website, Jewfaq.org, says:

The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin [betrothal] can take place before that, and often did in medieval times. (JewFaq.org, http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm)

The age of twelve approximates the commencement of puberty. According to Jewish Law, marriage at this age is not just allowed, but rather it is actively encouraged and fathers are advised to quickly wed their pubescent daughters.
We read:

One passage that would echo long and loud for Ashkenazic Jews throughout the Middle Ages held that a man who marries off his sons and daughters near the period of puberty (samukh le-firkan) will receive the scriptural blessing:
“you shall know that your tent is in peace” (Job 5:24), evidently understood to mean that if one’s children were married, they would not succumb to sexual temptation” (Biale, 1997:p4995[)50-] (G.U.S.: A World Reference Atlas, http://www2.rz.huberlin.de/sexology/...DLEEASTOLD.HTM)

So Jewish Law allows men to marry twelve year olds, whom today would be considered “child brides”. But the plot thickens! Even the age limit of twelve is not absolute. Rather, twelve years old is merely the age at which a girl can herself decide to get married. Before that, however, her father can have her married off, without her permission.


We read from the website of the Special Rapporteur to the United Nations:

According to Jewish religious law (halacha), which in Israel confers validity on the marriage of Jews conducted within its borders, it is possible to marry a young girl of any age, but the girl herself may decide to marry only when she
has reached the age of 12 and a half. (U.N. representative, http://www.right-to-education.org/node/442)


The authoritative Jewish website, AskMoses.com, says:

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law? by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg...

In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three. [Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.] A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen. [Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1] (AskMoses.com, http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/5...ewish-law.html)

The Talmud recommends that a daughter be given in marriage at around the age of twelve (i.e. the commencement of puberty), but Jewish fathers were historically allowed to marry their daughters off even before that age.

Surprisingly, the wife could be as young as three years old. According to Jewish Law, such marriages were officially sealed by the man having sex with the baby. We read:

In the ancient world, Jewish law seemed to require an act of intercourse for a betrothal to be recognised. The Mishnah said: «A girl three years old and one day may be betrothed by intercourse […]» (Mishnah, Nid. V. 4). Maimonides (A. D. 1180) states: «If she is three years and one day old she may be betrothed by an act of intercourse, with the consent of her father. If she is less than that, and her father has her betrothed by an act of intercourse, she is not betrothed»([1972:p18][78]). Edwardes (1967a:p168)[79]: «The early-marriage tradition of Israel found acceptance in Christendom, whose precocious children bedded and wedded at or even before puberty...At the time of St. Paul, girls were married at puberty or a little before. (G.U.S.: A World Reference Atlas, http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GE...MIDDLEEAST.HTM)


Although twelve was set as the recommended age, Jewish fathers were marrying their daughters off well before that. We read:

Although the Talmud recommended that a daughter be given in marriage when na›rah, between the ages of twelve and twelve and a half, a father could marry her off well before that time…16th century Jewish history reveals a prevalence of girl «child» marriage, many of whom were between 12 and 14 years of age (Lamdan, 1996)[86]

The early marriage age may be attributed to several factors: an attempt to prevent the temptation of sexual relations before marriage; the effort to arrange the best possible match both socially and economically; the insecurity of diaspora Jews during the age of expulsions from Spain and Ottoman expansion, moving them to establish ties that would assure the children›s financial future; and the desire to raise a new generation of Jews as quickly as possible to assure the continuity of their people. (G.U.S.: A World Reference Atlas, http://www2.rz.huberlin.de/sexology/
GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/MIDDLEEASTOLD.HTM)

Age for Marriage

According to many Jewish scholars, a girl should be married off as soon as she hits puberty and no later. The Jewish Encyclopedia says:

The first positive commandment of the Bible, according to rabbinic interpretation (Maimonides, «Minyan ha-Miẓwot,» 212), is that concerning the propagation of the human species (Gen. i. 28). It is thus considered the duty of every Israelite to marry as early in life as possible…Some urge that children should marry as soon as they reach the age of puberty. (Jewish Encyclopedia, http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...er=M&artid=216)


In the journal entitled Women in Judaism, we find that Jews were still marrying at the age of puberty up until World War I:

A Daughter’s Coming of Age

In earlier days, girls got married at the age of nine…[following the] custom of marrying daughters at age eight to ten…if the maiden does not get married until the age of fifteen she has no hope of marriage, because she would be considered an old maid…At the end of the nineteenth century, despite these regulations, families still married their daughters at the age of twelve and thirteen…On the eve of World War I, the situation changed somewhat for the better when the legal age for marriage was raised to fifteen. (Women in Judaism: A Multidisciplinary Journal, http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/jour...2/sehayek.html)

Jewish girls “got married at the age of nine”, a practice which continued up until “the eve of World War I”. Why then are the Jews criticizing Prophet Muhammad (peace e upon him) for marrying Aisha (peace be upon her) at the age of nine? Is this not hypocrisy? Is this not a case of living in a glass house and throwing stones? Why is it that Christian adversaries condemn Muslims but say nothing at all to their Jewish counterparts?

To conclude, we close with the words of Mark E. Pietrzyk:

According to the Talmud, the recommended age for marriage is sometime after twelve for females, and thirteen for males. Marriage below these ages was generally frowned upon. However, a father was allowed to betroth his daughter to another man at an earlier age, and sexual intercourse was regarded as a valid means of sealing a betrothal. The age limit for betrothal through sexual intercourse was shockingly low. According to the Talmud, “A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse.” (Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)


Age of Marriage under Christian Law

We have shown how the Jewish Encyclopedia says that under Jewish Law girls can marry at the age of twelve or even younger than that; let us now see what the Catholic Encyclopedia says of Christian laws with regards to marriage.


The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years [i.e. if puberty occurs before the age of twelve])… The canonical age holds in England, Spain, Portugal, Greece(Ionian Isles excepted, where it is sixteen and fourteen), and as regards Catholics even in Austria. While in some parts of the United Statesthe canonical marriage age of fourteen and twelve still prevails, in others it has been enlarged by statutes. (Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm)



Elsewhere, the Catholic Encyclopedia says:

By the common law, the age at which minors were capable of marrying, known as the age of consent, was fixed at fourteen years for males and twelve years for females. Marriages under the age of seven years for both were void, but
between seven and the age of consent [14 for males, 12 for females] the parties could contract an imperfect marriage, which was voidable but not necessarily void. (Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09691b.htm)


Although twelve was the general guideline, Christian fathers were allowed to marry their daughters off even before that. We read:

Medieval Christianity continued to maintain the age of twelve as a minimal age for females to enter into marriage. However, even this low age limit was not absolute. Using natural law logic, Catholic authorities argued that the decisive
factor which determined a child›s readiness for marriage and sexual relations was the onset of puberty, and not necessarily age as such. According to one Catholic scholar, “If it could be satisfactorily proved that puberty . . . was
actually attained by the boy before the completion of his fourteenth year, or by the girl before the completion of her twelfth year, then . . . the party could enter upon a valid marriage.” [1] (Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)

1 O›Dea, 13-; Rush, 303-

Similar to Jewish Law, Christian Law differentiated between the minimum age of marriage and the absolute minimum age of marriage. Twelve years old was the minimum age of marriage, called the age of consent; in other words, a girl had to be twelve years old before should could arrange her own marriage. But the absolute minimum age of marriage was in fact seven years of age, during which time her father could arrange her marriage without her permission. In the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality, we read:


Age of Consent: A Historical Overview


Age of Consent throughout history has usually coincided with the age of puberty although at sometimes it has been as early as seven…The Roman tradition served as the base for Christian Europe as well as the Christian Church itself which generally, essentially based upon biological development, set it at 12 or 14 but continued to set the absolute minimum at seven. In the past century there has been a tendency to raise the age of consent but the reasons for the change have not always been clear and the issue has been further complicated by the reluctance of many contemporary historians to
recognize what the actual age of consent in the past has been. This failure has distorted the importance of biology on age of consent in the past. (Age of Consent: A Historical Overview, http://www.haworthpress. com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=XH16E3FKBF7Q9P3MKLPC82LUJN KC41U5&ID=87429)


Saint Thomas Aquinas, considered by Catholics to be the greatest theologian of all time, wrote in The Summa Theologica:


If the parties are betrothed by another person [i.e. the father] before they reach the age of puberty, either of them or both can demur; wherefore in that case the betrothal does not take effect, so that neither does any affinity result therefrom. Hence a betrothal made between certain persons by some other takes effect, in so far as those between whom the betrothal is arranged do not demur when they reach the proper age, whence they are understood
to consent to what others have done. (The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, http://www.newadvent.org/
summa/5043.htm)

In other words, pre-pubertal marriages arranged by the father are recognized by the Church. Once the girl reaches puberty, she has the option of nullifying the marriage.

However, there is a big catch to this: if the man has sex with the pre-pubertal girl, then she can no longer nullify the marriage. Catholic popes argued that even if marriage took place before twelve years of age and before puberty,
then such a marriage would still be binding by the law. We read:

"Sexual intercourse which took place before marital age limits or puberty was not necessarily illicit or sinful. On the contrary, some popes ruled that intercourse below the age of twelve/fourteen had the effect of sealing a marriage contract, as long as such intercourse took place after the age of discretion, which was seven. [2 Rush, 3234] Once intercourse had taken place, the marriage could not be annulled". (Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)


This is a very important point, and shatters the glass house that the Christians live in.

The popes—who, due to the backing of the Holy Ghost, are considered infallible when they issue such religious edicts—ruled that a girl could be married off after the age of seven, before the age of consent. In other words, she could be married against her will.

If the husband had sex with her (even against her will), then this sealed the marriage and the girl could not annul the marriage.

In the twelfth century, Pope Alexander III ruled:

If a girl of tender age is betrothed and delivered to her husband, and afterwards desires to marry a different man, her petition is not to be granted if her husband swears that he has had carnal knowledge of her even at the early age of eleven or twelve. [3] 3 Quoted in John Fulton, The Laws of Marriage (New York: E. and J.B. Young, 1883), 112.

The Christian scholars ruled that even if a seven year old girl had sex before reaching the age of puberty, the fact that she had sex proves that she was mature enough to be married. In other words, the minimum criteria to marry a girl is that a man can have sex with her. When a man wants to marry a young girl, all he has to do is marry her and then have sex with her. In a very circular logic, the sex he had with her will validate his marriage and prevent an annulment. Christian Law therefore dictates that it does not matter how young a girl is, or whether or not she has attained the age of puberty; all that truly matters is that her husband can penetrate her and have sex. Once he does this, nobody can oppose or annul the marriage.


C. Yandell writes in “Carpe Corpus: Time and Gender in Early Modern France”:

In canon law, puberty normally determines marriageable age, although the minimum age for marriage is seven years, «the age of reason», when a child is deemed capable of consent. The lawyer Estienne Pasquier notes that the Digest compiled by Justinian specifies fourteen years for men, twelve for women, but, he adds, if one is capable of carnal cohabitation before this age, marriage is permitted.
(Carpe Corpus: Time and Gender in Early Modern France, by Cathy Yandell p.37, http://books.google.com/books?id=YXs...KGHQigfa&sig=0
Pv95S0Z7pBtjVz9GZHbuWc53ho#PPP1,M1)

We read further:




Thus even for very young partners, the act of intercourse bound the two of them together for life. As one Catholic scholar has written, “carnal relations between the parties seemed to indicate sufficient maturity and made up for the defect of years.” [4] Sexual intercourse below the age of discretion (seven) was not a crime, but merely “invalid,” and thus, inconsequential, as under Jewish law. [5]

4 O›Dea, 8.
5 For an example, see Charles Edward Smith, Papal Enforcement of Some Medieval Marriage
Laws (Port Washington, NY: Kennikat Press, 1940), 14244-.


Parents arranged marriages for their pre-pubescent children during the Middle Ages for a variety of dynastic, economic, and cultural reasons. [6] Such marriages were usually consummated at the age of twelve. Although physicians warned of the dangers of impregnating very young girls and implored husbands to wait until the wife reached the age of at least fourteen, such warnings usually went unheeded, and the Catholic Church continued to bless marital bonds with twelve-year-old girls. [7]

Although technically the consent of the child was necessary for a marriage to take place, the child was usually not in a position to challenge his or her parents and resist an unwanted union. This led to a number of abuses which went unchallenged by the Church. In 1526, the Dutch scholar Erasmus complained,

“It is no uncommon case, especially in France, for a girl of scarce ten years to be married and a mother next year. . . . It seems portentous, and yet we sometimes see it, especially in Britainand Italy, that a tender child is married to a septuagenarian [i.e. a man in his seventies]. . . . Yet Church laws do not rescind such nuptials” [8]

In later centuries, some Christian commentators would denounce sexual relations with young girls as being equivalent to rape. In the sixteenth century, canonist Egidio Bossi argued for this interpretation on the grounds that a child could hardly be considered as being in a position to give consent. However, he recommended that the age of consent be fixed at only six or seven years of age. [9]

6 V.H.H. Green, Medieval Civilization in Western Europe(London: Edward Arnold Ltd.,1971), 18485-

7 William J. Fielding, Strange Customs of Courtship and Marriage (New York: The New Home Library, 1942), 16668-.

8 Quoted in G.G. Coulton, Medieval Panorama (New York: MacMillan, 1944), 639.

9 “Rape and Marriage in the Medieval Canon Law,” in James A. Brundage, ed., Sex, Law and Marriage in the Middle Ages (Brookfield, Vermont: Ashgate, 1993), 67.



At the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, there was some discussion among the Church leadership about possibly raising the age for marriage. Cardinal Charles De Guise of Lorraine, France, advocated raising the age of marriage for women to twenty and for men to twenty-five. The bishop of Cordia, Spain, argued for the ages of twenty for women and twenty-two for men. However, the majority of those on the Council were opposed to raising the age for marriage on the grounds that adolescents would be tempted to commit fornication unless they were permitted to marry. The conservatives prevailed: the age limit remained at twelve for females and fourteen for males.
[10]
(Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)


In a paper published at a symposium on Byzantine Studies, we read:

Baptism, usually at birth, was the fundamental rite of incorporation into the body of Christ and the Church…Betrothal, sometimes as early as the age of five, marked another stage in the child’s social incorporation. (Byzantine Studies: 2006 Spring Symposium, http://www.doaks.org/byz_2006_ symposium_abstracts.html)

Aisha (peace be upon her) was around the age of puberty when she married. Christians criticize the Prophet’s marriage to her on the grounds that she was too young. Yet, Christian Law not only allowed girls to marry at the age of puberty, but rather it was encouraged by the Church to marry at this young age. In an article entitled “The Practice and Theory of Marriage in Roman North Africa”, we read:

"Other canons require that lectors, upon reaching puberty, should either marry or take vows of celibacy".
(The Practice and Theory of Marriage in Roman North Africa,
http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~james....huntermar.html)

10 O›Dea, 46-


In the article entitled “Marriage: Laws and Customs”, we read:

Legal Age for Marriage

Roman law gave the minimum age for marriage as that of puberty which was 14 for boys and 12 for girls; these remained the legal age for marriage until the late 19th Century in Britain…There is however evidence that child marriages were reasonably common in North West England in the 16th century…(Marriage: Laws and Customs, http://www.isle-of- man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/marr.htm)



In an article entitled “Law, Sex, and Christian Society in Medieval Europe”, we read:

Ordinary people who chose not to devote their lives to ascetic observances were often advised that their best defense against the ever present urge to copulate was to marry early. For this reason, St. Chrysostom warned parents
to see to it that their children married soon after they reached the age ofpuberty.(Law, Sex, and Christian Society in Medieval Europe, http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/medevl1.html)

When girls neared the approximate age of puberty, they were considered marriage material. These pre-pubescent and pubescent girls were routinely married off to men who were the same age as their grandfathers. We read:

Christian canon law followed Roman law in setting the minimum age of marriage at twelve for females and fourteen for males. The logic behind these marital age limits was that these were the approximate ages of puberty for both genders, indicating readiness for procreation. In ancient Rome, among both pagans and Christians, marriage at an early age was frequent. Betrothals often occurred even before puberty, although the consummation of marriage through intercourse usually did not take place until after the girl’s first menstruation. Very often, the age of discrepancy of marriage partners was great. According to one historian, “the matching of a man with a woman young enough to be his daughter or even granddaughter was generally accepted.” [11]
(Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)

11 Treggiari, 102; John C. O›Dea, The Matrimonial Impediment of Nonage (Washington, DC:
Catholic University of America Press, 1944), 1.




Historical Age of Marriage in Western Countries

Age of Marriage During Biblical Times

It is ironic that Christian missionaries attack Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for his marrying Aisha (peace be upon her) at such a young age, but we find that this was the normal age of marriage during Biblical times. Theology.edu, a website maintained by a reputable Christian ministry, clearly mentions in an article entitled “Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs” that the age of marriage was around the age of puberty:

The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line. (Jim West, ThD; http://www.theology.edu/marriage.htm)

In the book entitled Life in Biblical Israel, a Christian priest writes:

It is safe to assume the bride was considerably younger than the groom, and childbearing would have begun shortly after puberty.

(Life in Biblical Israel, p.58,http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=...+biblical+isra el&pg=PP1&ots=k_Uryl4rgv&sig=gbiH8WI_FNKI7tA9nMra 9 m3LcLo&prev=ht tp://www.google.com.pk/search?hl=en&q=Life+in+Biblical+Israel+&btnG=Goo gle+Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR2,M1)


In the book Ancient Jewish Epitaphs, we read:

For Jewish women—as for women in antiquity generally—marriage was often entered into early. We do not have many inscriptions recording the age at which women were married, but the few who record it mention ages ranging from 12...

(Ancient Jewish Epitaphs, p.103104-, http://books.google.com/booksid=F549...VYI4Ok6&sig=Jm uMAO3YgRnYQFVLOcsHCuQDFd8#PPA103,M1)


Age of Marriage in Rome
According to About.com:


In Ancient Rome…young girls were often married off when they were between the ages of twelve and fourteen.
(About.com, http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmar...enmarriage.htm)


In the book entitled The Age of Marriage in Ancient Rome, we read:

Traditionally in pre-modern societies, AAFM [age at first marriage] for girls corresponded with the visible onset of puberty. In these early societies, high mortality rates demanded an offsetting high-birth rate. As a result, younger marriages were required to facilitate population growth.(The Age of Marriage in Ancient Rome, http://osdir.com/ml/education.public.../msg00028.html)




In a scholarly article about the Roman Empire, we read that marriage would oftentimes precede the onset of puberty:

Durry (1955a/b/c, 1956)[48] had argued that Roman girls were married before puberty, that puberty was not important in fixing the age of marriage, and that such early marriages were consummated before puberty…

Taking into consideration epigraphic and literary material, Hopkins concludes that «[w]hether pre-pubertal or not, girl›s age at marriage was by our standards very young and marriages were generally immediately consummated» …

At least one author believed that a girl «should be married and deflowered as soon as she reaches puberty (i.e., the socially determined age of puberty)… «

Psychohistorians[66] cite Rouselle (1988:p33) in arguing that Roman misconceptions about the hymen «could only be the result of girls being deflowered before puberty», being lawfully married before puberty.

(Janssen, D.F.; Oct 2002. G.U.S.. Volume I: World Reference Atlas. Interim Report. Amsterdam, The Netherlands, http://www2.huberlin.de/sexology/GES...M#_Toc26337172)


In the article “The Age of Roman Girls at Marriage”, we read:

In fact menarche (onset of menses) was not always a pre-condition of marriage; nevertheless marriages were usually consummated immediately… they (prepubertal marriages) were not exceptional and were condoned.

(The Age of Roman Girls at Marriage,) http://www.jstor.org/pss/2173291?sea...Don&Search=yes



The age of seven was in vogue:

Around AD 530, and at least as far back as the reign of Augustus, the legal minimum age of marriage for girls was 12 and for boys 14 (Hopkins,p313n22)…At least for the aristocracy, early ages are frequently mentioned. Betrothal could take place within a poorly defined period before this age; at least it must be assumed that a minimum legal age of seven was in vogue (p313n23)[49]… Plutarche (historian, philosopher), and Soranus (doctor,
practising at Rome), both Greeks, implied that early marriage (12 or before)
and defloration would occur…

(Janssen, D.F.; Oct 2002. G.U.S.. Volume I: World Reference Atlas. Interim Report. Amsterdam, The Netherlands, http://www2.huberlin.de/sexology/GES....HTM#_Toc26337


The great Roman leader Augustus fixed the minimum age of marriage at ten years old:

Roman children of the aristocracy married youngest (Hopkins, 1965:316ff; 1983[57]:p94; Weaver, 1986:p156)[58]. Roman marriage arrangements usually began with a betrothal, which was possible before age ten[59], at least in the case of the aristocracy, or when political gains were in vogue (Balsdon, p87,275n18)[60]. Augustus (AD 9) had fixed the minimum age at ten (Rawson,1986:p21)[61]…(Janssen, D.F.; Oct 2002. G.U.S.. Volume I: World Reference Atlas. InterimReport. Amsterdam, The Netherlands, http://www2.huberlin.de/sexology/GES...M#_Toc26337172)


Age of Marriage in Greece

In the Ancient Greek civilization, the time to marry was at the onset of puberty: Flacelière (59) also mentioned that girls could marry as soon as puberty hit.(Daily Life in Greeceat the Time of Pericles,

http://www.richeast.org/htwm/Greeks/.../marriage.html


WomenInTheAncientWorld.com says:


Athenian men married out of a sense of civic duty and put off the fateful day until the age of 30 or more, at which time they married girls of half their age whose youth made them more easily controlled.

WomanInTheAncientWorld.com
http://www.womenintheancientworld.co...nt%20egypt.htm



Age of Marriage in Christian Europe

In an article about Medieval times, MolloyCollege’s website says:

Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men in their twenties or thirties. Puberty was linked to virginity, a highly sought after quality.

(MolloyCollege, http://students.molloy.edu/sophia/med_ren/med_text.htm)



Bennet’s book Singlewomen in the European Past:

As Anthony Molho persuasively illustrates, the cultural imperative to marry young women soon after they reached sexual maturity even prompted many Florentine fathers to falsify their daughters› ages to give them more time to negotiate a favorable marriage.

(Singlewomen in the European Past, p.44, http://books.google.com/books?id=l6Y...g=rug6ZIFREdsm FAKkjPIboKsd2KI)


The History at Minnesotawebsite indicates that the average age of marriage just 500 years ago was only 12.7
(http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/NAHUAEN3/outline.htm)

This is an average, meaning that many girls were getting married much younger than that. Why then are the Christians up in arms about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who married Aisha (peace be upon her) more than1,400 years ago?



Revered Christian Figures

Christian Saints

We have already clearly established that Jewish and Christian Law allowed for girls to be married off at such a young age. We have also shown that such marriages were not only allowed, but encouraged; they were in fact the norm. Yet perhaps a Christian polemicist would argue that the matter is not about what the masses did but what the leaders did; after all, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the leader of the Muslims, not just any follower.

To refute this point, we first point to the Christian popes who sanctioned such early marriages and actively encouraged them. But to further weaken their spurious argument, we will cite the example of numerous Christian saints who married young girls. Therefore, if the Christians attack Prophet Muhammad, then let them first throw stones at their own revered heroes. Let us begin:

1. Saint Augustine: Saint Augustine, who is credited with having formulated Christian theology, betrothed himself to a ten year old girl, and this was when he was thirty-one years of age. He waited two years for her body to mature, after which she moved into Saint Augustine’s at the age of twelve. How is it then that the Christians attack Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for marrying Aisha (peace be upon her) when she was nine or ten, when their venerated Saint Augustine himself betrothed a ten year old girl?


We read:

One such example of betrothal between a mature male and young girl is that of St. Augustine (354439- A.D.). At the age of thirty-one, Augustine betrothed himself to a ten-year-old girl.
(Mark E. Pietrzyk, http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html)



Saint Agnes:

Another very famous Christian figure in history, Saint Agnes—who is known as the patron saint of chastity—fielded marriage proposals when she was younger than twelve years old. Yet suddenly the Christians turn their noses up when we Muslims say that Aisha (peace be upon her) fielded marriage proposals at a similar age.



Domestic-Church.com says:

Saint Agnes› name means chaste or pure in Greek and lamb or victim in Latin. She has always been regarded by the Church as a special patroness of purity. Agnes was martyred early in the persecution of Diocletian, who began his
persecution of Christians in March of 303. She was only twelve or thirteen years old at the time of her death (accounts differ). Even at that young age, her wealth and beauty had attracted the attention of the young noblemen of Rome, who competed with each other for her hand in marriage.
(Domestic-Church.com,http://www.domesticchurch.com/CONTEN...TS/STAGNES.HTM)



3. Saint Hedwig of Andechs: Saint Hedwig is revered by the Christians as the patron saint of orphans. She was married off at the age of twelve to Henry I of Silesia.

4. Saint Rita of Cascia: She is considered by Christians to be the patron saint of hopeless causes, and was betrothed at the age of twelve to a man named Paola Mancini.

5. Saint Mary of Jesus Crucified: She was betrothed at the age of thirteen.

6. Saint Elizabeth of Portugal, patron of the Third Order of St. Francis, was married off at the age of twelve.



7. Saint Joseph, the supposed foster father of Jesus, was in his nineties when he married the twelve year old Mary. Some claim that Joseph was in his thirties—and not his nineties—but the fact remains that he was a grown man
who married a twelve year old. And there are many other examples from amongst the venerated Christian
saints…



Christian Kings, Royals, and Nobles

The Christian royals were marrying girls as young as nine, according to an article written by Professor Lynda Garland of the University of New England:

Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before
she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel›s niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine.
(Professor Lynda Garland of University of New England, http://www.romanemperors.org/aggiefran.htm)

It should be noted that these Christian kings, royals, and nobles married with the blessing and sanction of the Church. As such, the countless examples that we will provide serve as a strong proof against the Christians and their insincere criticisms of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In this article, we will only provide a few of the many examples, as follows:




1. King Richard II, at the age of thirty, married a French princess named Isabella who was only seven years old at the time.

2. Duchess of Milan, Bianca of Savoy, was married off at the age of thirteen

3. Theodora Comnena was married off at the age of thirteen to King Baldwin III, who was more than double her age.

4. King Adronikos I Komnenos, the valiant Christian leader of the Byzantine Empire, married the twelve year old Agnes of France when he was sixty-four years old.

5. King Denis of Portugal married the twelve year old Saint Elizabeth of Portugal.

6. Girolamo Riario, Lord of Imola and Forli, married the nine year old Caterina Sforza.

7. Jeanne III of Navarre was wed at the age of thirteen.

8. Giovanni Sforza married the thirteen year old Lucrezia Borgia.

9. King Haakon VI of Norway married the ten year old Queen Margaret.

10. Count Agness of Essex was betrothed at the age of only three years old and married off at the age of twelve to a man who was almost fifty years of age.

11. Prince Edward of Wales married the French king’s daughter, Isabella, who was only seven years old.

12. Romanos II married Bertha (renamed Eudokia), the daughter of the King of Italy, when she was only four years old!

13. Stephen Milutin, the Kral of Serbia, married Simonis, the daughter of Emperor Andronikos II, when she was only five years old. At the time of the marriage, Stephen Milutin was fifty years old.

14. Edward I married the nine year old Eleanor of Castile.

15. Richard of Shrewsbury, King Edward IV’s son, married the five year old Anne Mowbray of Norfolk.

16. Mary Stewart married Henry VIII when she was only six.

And there are many other examples…




Perhaps a Christian polemicist would argue that these Christian royals were individuals and do not represent Christianity. Yet, this argument is weakened when we take into account that no royal marriage was validated without the consent and approval of the Christian Church! Papal consent was a prerequisite of the time. To illustrate this, we can look at the example of the marriage of Prince Edward to the young Isabella:

Given that twelve was the canonical age for marriage, and that in 1298 the Pope had stipulated that she should marry Prince Edward as soon as she reached that age, these dates are viable. In the same document of June 1298, the Pope describes Isabella as being ‹under seven years›, which places her birth at any time from 1291 onwards. Furthermore, the Treaty of Montreuil (June 1299) provided for Isabella›s betrothal and marriage to take place when she reached the respective canonical ages of seven and twelve. So she must

have reached seven before May 1303, and twelve before January 1308. (Isabella, http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/...es/choice/extr act_isabella.jsp)

It is safe to say that if Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had been Christian, then the Church itself would have sanctioned his marriage to Aisha (peace be upon her)! But because the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Muslim, the Church instead has levied allegations of “pedophilia” against him! This is the two-faced nature of the Crusader bigots.




Jewish and Christian Prophets

1. Abraham: When the ignorant Christians condemn Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for marrying a young girl fifty years younger than him, they are actually attacking the Prophets in their Bible as well. Do they not recall the story of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) who, according to the Bible, slept with Hagar (peace be upon her) who was sixty or seventy younger than him?

If the Christians have an issue with Prophet Muhammad being in his fifties, do they not say anything when Prophet Abraham was in his eighties? We read:

Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He (Abram) slept with Hagar, and she conceived…So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, Chapter 16, verses 1–4, 15–16, NIV)

2. David: We read in the Bible that King David lay beside a young virgin, by which was meant a girl who had just attained the age of puberty. We read:

When King David was old and well advanced in years, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. So his servants said to him, ‘Let us look for a young virgin to attend the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.’ Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful girl and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. (1 Kings, Chapter 1, verses 1–4, NIV)


3. Isaac: According to the Judeo-Christian tradition, Prophet Isaac (peace be upon him) was forty years old when he married Rebecca (Rivka) who was only three years old at the time! And it should be remembered that Prophet Isaac is considered by the Jews to be one of the most important of Prophets, and Rebecca is one of the four matriarchs of the Jews. What is interesting to note is that just like there are some defeatist Muslims who deny that Aisha was nine years old when she was married, there are also some defeatist Jews who deny that Rebecca was three years old when she was married. We refer the reader to the following defeatist website made by contemporary Jews who seek to deny what their classical scholars say on the matter: http://www.jewishlegends.com/displayExp.php?rumor=122



In this article, the Jewish writers admit that they are taught in Jewish schools that Rebecca was three years old when she was married:




We all came home from school saying that Rivka was three years old when she got married, and most of us had a hard time believing it. Our teachers explained that people in those days matured faster, so 3 years old then was not what 3 years old is now. What they did not tell us (probably because they did not know), is that there is another opinion that says that she was 14. (JewishLegends.com, http://www.jewishlegends.com/displayExp.php?rumor=122)

How oddly similar is this claim made by these Jewish defeatists (“another opinion that says she was 14”) to the claim made by some Muslim defeatists who claim that “another opinion says that Aisha was nineteen years of age.” Jewish apologists further the following argument: Rivka, shortly before her marriage (Berei**** 24:16), is called NA’ARAH,
which refers to a girl of at least 12 years of age! (JewishLegends.com, http://www.jewishlegends.com/displayExp.
php?rumor=122)

Muslim apologists use a strikingly similar argument. We cite the example of Understanding-Islam.com, a Muslim website that takes unorthodox opinions: All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word «bikr» in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is «Jariyah». «Bikr» on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a «lady». (Understanding-Islam, http://understandingislam.com/relate...estion&qid=375)

Both sites (Jewish and Muslim) engage in some simplistic mathematical arguments in order to find discrepancies in dating. In fact, both groups use similar methodology to question the historicity of these early marriages. What is not similar, however, is the amount of ink wasted attacking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) on the one hand and on the other hand

the silence on Prophet Isaac’s marriage to the three year old Rebecca. The Zionists lead the charge in the attacks against Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), so should we now expose their hypocrisy? If they argue that their
classical scholars were wrong for saying that the forty year old Prophet Isaac married a three year old, then logic and fairness dictate that the Muslims are also absolved because they too have defeatists who simply deny that Aisha
was nine at the time of marriage!





4. Jesus: And if the Christians wish to stick a spear in our hearts by attacking Prophet Muhammad, then what of Prophet Jesus’s mother Mary (peace be upon her) who was only twelve years old when she was betrothed to the ninety year old Saint Joseph?

The Catholic Encyclopedia says: The priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates.
(Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm)

According to the “Oxford Dictionary Bible” commentary, Mary was twelve years old when she became pregnant. As for the age of Saint Joseph, the traditional opinion was that he was a ninety year old widower at the time. It has only been very recently that suddenly the defeatists have sought to deny this, claiming that Joseph was “only” in his thirties. Whether or not Joseph was in his thirties or nineties is largely inconsequential, since the fact is that he was a grown man who married a twelve year old girl. In any case, the Christian East still accepts the idea that Saint Joseph was in his eighties and that Mary was twelve. An Eastern Orthodox website says:



An Elderly Joseph

The New Testament Apocrypha speak of Joseph as an elderly man, a widower with adult children, who was quite reluctant to be included among those from among whom a protector for Mary would be chosen. Although the Apocrypha were not included in the canon of Scripture their importance is great and much in evidence in the liturgical texts of some of the great Feasts.

However the Gospels too give evidence for an elderly Joseph. For example he is no longer mentioned after Jesus› trip to the temple as an adolescent. Note also that as Jesus was dying upon the Cross He asked John to look after His mother.

That would have been unnecessary - and even insulting to Joseph had he been alive. But as an elderly man he would have reposed well before Jesus› crucifixion at the age of 3233-. Mary, however, would only have been in her middle age…

The Christian East›s picture of Joseph as a courageous, faithful, God-centred elderly widower rings true. It also tells us that «old people» are quite capable of being chosen for and embarking upon extraordinary adventures in which they obtain remarkable success by God›s mercy and provision.

This picture may not be very attractive - particularly in a youth-fixated culture such as ours in which «old» has become a pejoritive expression. One can understand the appeal of the youthful Joseph. But truth may have an attraction all its own.(Ukrainian-Orthodoxy, http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/ar...s_a/joseph.htm)

Therefore, if the Christian West seeks to **** the Muslims for our belief in an elderly Prophet who married a young virgin, then let them cast the first stone against their own brothers in the East first. In any case, even if we accept the claim that Saint Joseph was in his thirties when he was betrothed to Mary (peace be upon her), does this change the fact that Mary was twelve years old?

The priest of Saint Mary’s Catholic Church said: “Mary’s husband is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph, she was between 7 to 9 years old.” So even the Western Christians believe that a grown man well into his thirties married a young girl and impregnated her.

If the Christians of today are shocked at Aisha’s age, then should they not be equally shocked by the age of Mary? But we find that they are hypocritical in their attitude towards the Muslims, and we know this is only because the people hate to accept the Truth, and we recognize that all the Prophets were maligned and criticized by the disbelieving people. God will deal with them just like God dealt with all those who maligned the Prophets.


And there is much more, you can download the full book here http://www.rasoulallah.net/v2/docume...g=en&doc=13158

does the hypocrisy not amaze you :hmm:
Reply

Ramadhan
09-28-2011, 06:00 PM
:sl: sis. Aprender,

Reading at those bible verses, I really cannot see how any of them applicable for Islam and Muhammad (SAW) and they didn't even imply Islam nor Muhammad (SAW), and in fact reading those I immediately think of some of christians saints and jews' rabbis and their scribes.
But let's discuss each one (I am going to discuss each one per post as I don't have much time to write everything at once)

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Matthew 7:15
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
I don't think I have to explain why some would apply this to Muhammad(pbuh).
I think you have to explain because I failed to see how this is referring to Muhammad SAW.
let's re-read again the verse:
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

The verse says to watch out for false prophets. But how can we identify false prophets?
The verse explains who the false prophets: They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves

Clearly, according to this verse, false prophets are those who hide their true identity and/or intent (ferocious wolves) and put on the facade (sheep's clothing). So the false prophets are people with secrets and/or agendas of their own.
So let's put the magnifying glass on Muhammad (SAW)'s life.
Now, anyone with cursory knowledge of religions and history would know that NO ONE in the history of mankind whose life is more chronicled to the minutae and whose almost every sayings and actions more preserved than Muhammad (SAW). In fact, christians would know A LOT more (if they are willing to read) about the life of Muhammad (SAW) through ahadeeth than the lives of Jesus (pbuh) and ALL his disciples combined. And it is evident that he had no secret agenda because everything he brought and said and did was scrutinized, memorized and written, and even his enemies found no fault in his (SAW) character, as they were only against the message that he brought.
Here'swhat Hindu Professor KS Ramakhrisna Rao says:
"Historical records show that all contemporaries of Muhammad, both friend and foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity, and the absolute trustworthiness of the apostle of Islam in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message accepted him as arbitrator in their personal disputes on account of his scrupulous impartiality"
Muhammad the Prophet of Islam, K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, p. 13

Now, what is another criteria for true or false prophet that Jesus (pbuh) himself said:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit (prophet), but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:1-3

This one is very easy to understand: Every prophet who does not confess that Jesus (pbuh) came in the flesh was not sent by God. He is a false prophet. But any prophet that confesses that Jesus (pbuh) came in the flesh was sent by God. What does the Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh) say about Jesus (pbuh)? They say that a Muslim is not a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh), in his miraculous birth, in his giving life to the dead by God's permission, in his healing of the lepers and the blind by God's permission, in his piety and chastity, in his truthfulness, and in the fact that he was the Messiah (the Christ). The Qur'an contains many verses to this effect. For example, in A'al-Umran(3):40 we read:
"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."

So now we must ask: Has Muhammad (pbuh) fulfilled this criteria or not? This is all the more remarkable when it is contrasted with the popular opinion of the time such as the claims of the Jews regarding Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Mary (pbuh) as seen in part nine of section 6.3 (Karen Armstrong, . As a matter of fact, Jesus is referred to by name in the Qur'an fully sixteen times, as compared to only four places in the whole Qur'an where Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name.
No other religion in the whole world outside Christianity makes it an article of faith for its adherents to believe in, love and honor Jesus except Islam. Reading the Qur'an bears testimony to that (see for example (19):16-36, A'al-Umran(3):33-68, Al-Nissa(5): 72-77). Here we have the testimony of Jesus himself in the Bible that Muhammad was a prophet of God. If Jesus' words carry any weight at all with us then we must concede that Muhammad was a prophet of God and therefore spoke in the name of God.

Here's more reading whether Muhammad (SAW) was a false prophet or not: http://www.islamreligion.com/pdf/en/...het_202_en.pdf
Reply

Ramadhan
09-28-2011, 06:09 PM
I would appreciate if everyone stay on topic, thanks.
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
09-28-2011, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
That Muhammad (pbuh) listened to the whispers of Satan
I can accept that Muhammad received a revelation from an angel. But for me the question is: Which angel it was? I know that there are two kinds of these spiritual beings: the angels of God and the evil spirits.

A fragment from Muhammad’s life:

“Then he took me and squeezed me vehemently and then let me go and repeated the order ‘Recite.’ ‘I cannot recite' said I, and once again he squeezed me and let me go till I was exhausted. Then he said, ‘Recite.' I said, ‘I cannot recite.’ He squeezed me for a third time and then let me go and said...'
If it really was holy angel of God Gabriel, then why should he torment a man, God’s creature in this way, all the more if this man is supposed to be God-pleasing? This is what I’m interested to know from a Muslim.

P.S. Please don’t see this post as an intended insult or a challenge for a heavy debate. It’s just a fair discussion.
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جوري
09-28-2011, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
If it really was holy angel of God Gabriel, then why should he torment a man, God’s creature in this way, all the more if this man is supposed to be God-pleasing? This is what I’m interested to know from a Muslim.
If God really loved Jesus or in this case Jesus loved himself & thought that he shouldn't abrogate his own commandments at least as far as suicide or self-immolation, why did he torture himself after he spent a night of prayer to self or a greater god in Gethsemane?.. that's what I'd like to know from a christian..

The bottom line should be which religion is asking us to worship God, and which forgo everything known to Abrahamic faith in favor of idol/man worship..

P.S. Please don’t see this post as an intended insult or a challenge for a heavy debate. It’s just a fair discussion

best,
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Aprender
09-29-2011, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Reading at those bible verses, I really cannot see how any of them applicable for Islam and Muhammad (SAW) and they didn't even imply Islam nor Muhammad (SAW), and in fact reading those I immediately think of some of christians saints and jews' rabbis and their scribes.
And I agree with you there. Especially now that I've learned more. But I've seen those verses applied to modern times out of the historical context. Back then I didn't question the "logic" of it. It was just the way it was. I really don't know of any clear Biblical sources or anything to justify all of this being said about Islam or Muhammad (SAW). It was all just a matter of opinion from different people and I don't know where they got the information from. Perhaps another member here can direct you to something as in my Christian days, people didn't really question the bishops or pastors. :hmm:
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Aprender
09-29-2011, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
I can accept that Muhammad received a revelation from an angel. But for me the question is: Which angel it was? I know that there are two kinds of these spiritual beings: the angels of God and the evil spirits.

A fragment from Muhammad’s life:

“Then he took me and squeezed me vehemently and then let me go and repeated the order ‘Recite.’ ‘I cannot recite' said I, and once again he squeezed me and let me go till I was exhausted. Then he said, ‘Recite.' I said, ‘I cannot recite.’ He squeezed me for a third time and then let me go and said...'
If it really was holy angel of God Gabriel, then why should he torment a man, God’s creature in this way, all the more if this man is supposed to be God-pleasing? This is what I’m interested to know from a Muslim.
I don't understand your logic here. Please help me understand what you are saying. You said that you can accept that Muhammad (SAW) recieved revelation from an angel. Then you said that there are two kinds but you said "evil spirits". I'm guessing you mean demons? That's not the same thing as an angel. But I guess it makes sense for you because in Christianity Satan is seen as the fallen angel...

But I don't understand how being squeezed and let go of is torment? Explain please.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
09-29-2011, 09:27 AM
.....................
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
09-29-2011, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
I don't understand your logic here. Please help me understand what you are saying. You said that you can accept that Muhammad (SAW) recieved revelation from an angel. Then you said that there are two kinds but you said "evil spirits". I'm guessing you mean demons? That's not the same thing as an angel. But I guess it makes sense for you because in Christianity Satan is seen as the fallen angel...

But I don't understand how being squeezed and let go of is torment? Explain please.
  1. Yes, indeed; I said that there are angels of God and the fallen angels (i.e. demons).
  2. I don’t know if you would like if someone would vehemently squeeze you till you become exhausted; but I’m sure that for a normal human being (not for a masochist) it would be painful and therefore tormenting. So, why did he cause pain to Muhammad?
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جوري
09-30-2011, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
I don’t know if you would like if someone would vehemently squeeze you till you become exhausted; but I’m sure that for a normal human being (not for a masochist) it would be painful and therefore tormenting. So, why did he cause pain to Muhammad?
How's being squeezed 'demonic' or 'angelic' Do you think when your God allegedly died on the cross that he was in pain? Why would 'God' cause 'God' a painful death?.. Why would he a 'loving' 'merciful' God cause 'pain' and worst yet 'death' on God?

you're such a hoot!

best,
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 12:31 AM
my two cents,

iv read that the angel Gabriel AS had wings from horizon to horizon.

i guess being in its company left little room for negotiation..

strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.

also in response to OP

the thing islam and christianity have in common is that the jews were expecting something and something else turned up. the jews have always been the people of god.. they just refuse to accept his prophets pbut

the irony of it is lost because its a lot more serious than a joke.

just speculating.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.
Are you saying that Jibril (as) squeezed prophet (SAW) every time he visited him?
Or are you saying that Jibril (as) brought the Qur'an at that one and first time only?

Can I get your source of Islamic information?
Because most of the time, your islamic information is totally different then mine.

The event at Hiraa cave is one of the most clearly narrated events of prophet Muhammad SAW as he passed on to his companions (ra), and one of the purpose Jibril (as) squeezed him is to make him (pbuh) realized that it was all real, and that the angel Jibril (as) was real, and that it was not all a dream or his own imagination.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 02:29 AM
i have no source,

others have wrestled angels if i am not mistaken.
as for how many times revelation was sent to the prophet pbuh.. it was over a number of years( probably under different circumstances and locations), you know better than me.. im not good with history.

in fact i have not said anything about being squeezed, other than it would make it difficult. in my imagination i would see my prophet surrounded by that angel AS to the point it may have been restrictive. i have also said that under an all encompassing god.. people needed all the intercession they could get.

please read my post again.. i did not say intercession but i hoped you would read between the lines.

you are true though my Islamic information is based solely on my skewed perspective of life. outside of this forum i seldom share my views for fear of misguiding anybody silly enough to listen.

so feel more than free to deconstruct as you see fit.
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Aprender
10-01-2011, 03:36 AM
Ah. The thread is taking a bit of a turn. I won't bother responding to the post above but as you can clearly see from what was stated by some who have come here in earlier posts (ie apparently being squeezed and let go of is torture now), many people make these claims about Islam based on their own opinions and propaganda as opposed to actual evidence. I was hoping someone would come in and give you some clear sources to look at...
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 05:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
others have wrestled angels if i am not mistaken.
I haven't heard anyone wrestled angels. There is, however, verses in the OT that say Jacob (pbuh) wrestled with God and he defeated God.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
as for how many times revelation was sent to the prophet pbuh.. it was over a number of years( probably under different circumstances and locations), you know better than me.. im not good with history.
Did Jibril squeeze prophet (SAW) each time he brought the revelation?, I was assuming that was you were trying to say, implied by this:
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
in fact i have not said anything about being squeezed, other than it would make it difficult. in my imagination i would see my prophet surrounded by that angel AS to the point it may have been restrictive.
Ah, so you do not believe prophet Muhammad (saw) was squeezed during his first meeting with Jibril (as)?
even with the unimaginable size of Jibril (as), he is not of this dimension, and by leave of Allah, he wouldn't have restricted prophet (saw), would he? Also, do you not believe that each of us have two angels that record our good and bad deeds. Do you feel restricted by them?

Prophet Muhammad (saw) did get squeezed by Jibril (as) during the first revelation in the cave Hiraa, as per narration:
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.
http://ahadith.co.uk/chapter.php?cid=1

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i have also said that under an all encompassing god.. people needed all the intercession they could get.
please read my post again.. i did not say intercession but i hoped you would read between the lines.
Who said anything about intercession?
Please read my post again. I'm not sure who you were addressing?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
you are true though my Islamic information is based solely on my skewed perspective of life. outside of this forum i seldom share my views for fear of misguiding anybody silly enough to listen.
I don't really care what kind of perspective of life you have, but everytime you falsely attribute information against Allah SWT, Rasulullah SAW, and Islam in general, I will have to expose you.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 05:01 AM
I am actually interested to know the views of pastor Grace seekers and Eric H who seem to accept the prophethood of Muhammad (SAW).
Reply

Tyrion
10-01-2011, 05:11 AM
Here's a question I've wanted to ask about those people-squeezing devils Christians seem to think visited Muhammad (saw)... Why exactly would a Devil squeeze a man he was going to give revelation to? Especially when the devil's supposedly evil message echoed Christian and Jewish teachings? Would God really allow Satan to mislead men using his own commandments?

format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
I don’t know if you would like if someone would vehemently squeeze you till you become exhausted; but I’m sure that for a normal human being (not for a masochist) it would be painful and therefore tormenting. So, why did he cause pain to Muhammad?
Wait, am I missing something here? Are you (a Christian) asking why God would allow pain/suffering to befall his servants? This seems a little silly... I mean, you believe God put himself on a cross, right? That was probably a bit more painful than a firm hug...
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 09:37 AM
lol i dont get who's english or grasp of it is worse mine or yours. i have nothing more to contribute.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 09:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
lol i dont get who's english or grasp of it is worse mine or yours. i have nothing more to contribute.
I'm sure we all are able to understand what you are saying if it's actually based on the qur'an and ahadeeth.
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M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 09:53 AM
it is not based on the quran and hadiths, it is based on the implementation of the quran and hadiths.
i feel twice my age honestly.. seen to much, been too far.

i could live forever and not understand all there is to understand of allah swt, the quran is the criterion for judgement.. you use it to get closer to god, or at least thats why i entered this reilgion.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
it is not based on the quran and hadiths, it is based on the implementation of the quran and hadiths.
i feel twice my age honestly.. seen to much, been too far.
Some others may also four times their age, and may have seen much more and been much too far than you have. Just because you think you have unique life experience, it does not give you any pass on saying things about Allah SWT, the angels, prophet Muhammad SAW and the Qur'an which are not true.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i could live forever and not understand all there is to understand of allah swt, the quran is the criterion for judgement.. you use it to get closer to god, or at least thats why i entered this reilgion.
nobody could live forever for sure, and nobody will ever understand there is to understand of Allah SWT. Any muslim of age knows this.
Yes, the Qur'an is the criterion for judgement and nowhere in the Qur'an it says that any muslim can say whatever their desire about Allah SWT and the prophets (pbut), in fact the Qur'an clearly says the opposite.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 10:23 AM
everybody is unique,

unfortunately we all have similar character traits, if you learn to recognise methods of argument and extracting information then you begin to recognise those traits.

my life experience is unique to me, it is all my life decisions manifest...and another reason why i prefer to keep my mouth shut.
what god would give me tomorrow when i barely had today?

anyway the world is what you make it and it seems most will do better than me.

ultimately i dont have the sources you require and i dont wish to invent lies.

so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify
Reply

Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 10:44 AM
You claimed to have experienced a lot and yet you have not learned to not say things which you don't have knowledge of. Especially about Allah SWT, the prophets (pbut), the angels (as) and Al Qur'an. This thread is not the first instances where you have stated such erroneous claims, which, as you are now admitting you have no source.
You do know why the christians went astray, don't you? Because they claimed things they had no evidence and didn't know of.
I always thought with more experience will make people more wise, but I might be wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify
Genesis 32:24-32
And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." The man answered, "Why do you ask for my name?" Then he blessed Jacob there.
So Jacob named that place Peniel [Face of God], because he said, "I have seen God face to face, but my life was saved."
The sun rose as he passed Penuel. He was limping because of his hip.
Therefore, even today the people of Israel do not eat the muscle of the thigh attached to the hip socket because God touched the socket of Jacob's hip at the muscle of the thigh.

As muslims of course we believe that this passage was such a fabrication, but you are free to believe what you want to believe, although we all know there will be consequences to what we believe in.
I do not wish to go off topic, so if you still want to contribute to this thread, please stay on topic. Or you can open new threads which may suit what you have in mind, and I will entertain you there.
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Daniel Hoseiny
10-01-2011, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Why exactly would a Devil squeeze a man he was going to give revelation to?
In order to compel him to accept his (false) revelation and to force him to act according to his (satan’s) will, for example. Devil is the enemy of humans and uses every opportunity to torment them.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Especially when the devil's supposedly evil message echoed Christian and Jewish teachings?
What??? Why the teaching of the Quran echoes Christian teaching?
Christians believe in one God in three Persons, the Triune God - the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit – Holy Trinity undivided and one in essence.
Christians believe in the Incarnation of God the Son, His human and Divine nature (which are undivided in Jesus Christ, who is one person), His sacrifice on the Cross on behalf of us all, His glorious Resurrection, Ascension into Heaven (in human nature), His approaching Second Coming in glory to judge the living and the dead when His Kingdom will have no end.
Christians believe in the Covenant with their God, the Covenant of the New Testament, Covenant made possible through the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. And except if you are in this Holy Covenant with God, there is no salvation possible for you.
The message for Christians is that the salvation is made possible by Christ, and only by Christ; i.e. not by a prophet, righteous, but only by the incarnated God in the person of Jesus Christ, according the Christian teaching:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1) (by the way, it perfectly refers to Mohammad.)
Are you sure that Islam has a similar teaching? Then you are certainly not a Muslim.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Would God really allow Satan to mislead men using his own commandments?
Which commandments are you talking about? The commandment of God is:
‘That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.’
(John 5; read it completely).
I know you will say either that He’s calling himself Son because He is God’s righteous prophet, but even the contemporaries of Jesus, the Jews, rightly understood that He referred to Himself as God, equal with God the Father:
‘Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God’
. (John 5)
Or you will say that the Gospel is the fabrication of Christians; anyhow, this is what Christians have believed in, in the course of 2000 years.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Wait, am I missing something here? Are you (a Christian) asking why God would allow pain/suffering to befall his servants? This seems a little silly... I mean, you believe God put himself on a cross, right? That was probably a bit more painful than a firm hug...
When the Lord was crucified, it was His human Body and Soul that endured suffering. God the Son in His Divinity didn’t suffer anything. Moreover Jesus did it out of His Divine love for men, not because somebody compelled it Him to do (as is the case with Mohammed).
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
(John 10: 18)Furthermore the suffering was only temporary. The cause of it is the love for men. Jesus endured suffering and in three days rose up from the dead in order to redeem the mankind from the tyranny of sin and dead. He did it by taking upon himself the sin of the world (of all of us) and accepting the curse / suffering which the mankind deserved because of their sins. That’s why you have to accept Christ as your personal Redeemer and join His Church if you want to be justified from your sins (if you are aware of them of course) and be freed the consequences of the primordial sin.
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
(Romans 6: 9)
The same commandment of love He gives to His followers:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
(John 15: 13)
I don’t know if Muslims agree with this commandment, but this is what Jesus did for us, men.


Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 01:46 PM
your right there are consequences for what i believe in,

you did not answer my question, it was rhetorical anyway..

it only takes a look from the moment i step out of my door for me to realise that even if you were to offer me today i would tell you where to stick it to your face.

everybody walks this place stuck in there own little world/religion or outlook on life. you either enjoy what you have been given or fight for those who have had it taken away.
i am not content and i will not settle.

im sure god is aware of this.

lifes experiences do not translate well on paper and i cant teach you all i have seen in the space of a day.

taking the above into account its very much easier to die than to live, remember to follow the rules and you might make a difference.. or live contently.

you could learn the quran by heart or any scripture for that matter.. but it is easier to say then to do.
you know what your goal is, you planned ahead... you know what motivates you..even if you cant admit it to yourself.

enjoy the show.

..legal alien, you suffer much the same as ramadhan.. there is only one god, all the teachings were the same.
they did not differ until guidance had been sent to them.

that is the nature of man, ready to condemn or command ****ation.

your prophet was of the condemned, not in the eyes of his lord but in the eyes of his people.. and they were all his people.

you all lost your humanity in the belief of something inhuman.
gods commandment are always fulfilled.. the people used to carry them out are not always the saved.

jesus pbuh did not need m16's and ak47's.. it is by your own hands that you lead each other.. towards wherever it is you would like to go.

oh you thought thats chiched,

the problem is that you think knowledge, guidance or opinion are limited to a specific set of people.

hear this fitna( in your opinion im sure) and tell me if you can see through what he's saying.. his voice is much louder than most.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22l1sf5JZD0

those that can bear with it, might learn not to despise it so much.. what can i say, we are all a product of the system.
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Perseveranze
10-01-2011, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
I can accept that Muhammad received a revelation from an angel. But for me the question is: Which angel it was? I know that there are two kinds of these spiritual beings: the angels of God and the evil spirits.

A fragment from Muhammad’s life:



If it really was holy angel of God Gabriel, then why should he torment a man, God’s creature in this way, all the more if this man is supposed to be God-pleasing? This is what I’m interested to know from a Muslim.

P.S. Please don’t see this post as an intended insult or a challenge for a heavy debate. It’s just a fair discussion.
For your own good, read this - http://www.scribd.com/doc/59893794/T...t-of-the-Bible
Reply

جوري
10-01-2011, 03:06 PM
'Legal Alien'-- you're persistently dodging the query of why god would put god to death on a cross for a painful death, after said god spent the night in prayer to avoid such a fate.. The Q is not going to go away just because you bury your head in the sand..

best,
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
you did not answer my question, it was rhetorical anyway..
which question? I have answered this question of yours: so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify
Read again the passage (Genesis 32:24:32) that I plastered in my post which shows christians believe God lost in a wrestling match against Jacob (pbut).
You didn't expect me to answer this question, did you: what god would give me tomorrow when i barely had today?
Because if you really did, then I suspect you need help, as only God is able to answer that question.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
it only takes a look from the moment i step out of my door for me to realise that even if you were to offer me today i would tell you where to stick it to your face.
You need to relax, no one is trying to offer you anything, BUT be mindful that if you keep trying to post lies in this forum against Allah SWT, the prophets (pbut), the angels (as) and Al Qur'an, people will expose you.
You keep confusing christianity and Islam, and mixed up both truth and falsehoods and bible and the Qur'an.
You might want to do it in christianity forums, they might be more receptive as christians do not mind inventing lies against God, the prophets (pbut).
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 03:42 PM
no brother, im just trying to keep you entertained, just as you asked to entertain me.

i have no helper or planner except allah swt.

who can plan for tomorrow when he could not even plan for today?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
In order to compel him to accept his (false) revelation and to force him to act according to his (satan’s) will, for example. Devil is the enemy of humans and uses every opportunity to torment them.
So, christians believe it must have been the devil that revealed God's messages to prophet Muhammad SAW because angels would never hurt a prophet.

It cannot be more of an irony as in the previous post I pasted this passage from bible:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Genesis 32:24-32
And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." The man answered, "Why do you ask for my name?" Then he blessed Jacob there.
So Jacob named that place Peniel [Face of God], because he said, "I have seen God face to face, but my life was saved."
The sun rose as he passed Penuel. He was limping because of his hip.
Therefore, even today the people of Israel do not eat the muscle of the thigh attached to the hip socket because God touched the socket of Jacob's hip at the muscle of the thigh.
So, since according to Legal_alien only a satan can hurt a prophet, than in the wrestling match between Jacob and God, christians must believe that God = Satan.
Being squeezed is nothing compared to dislocating a hip. Then it must have been big strong satan that was wrestling with Jacob (pbut)
Reply

Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
no brother, im just trying to keep you entertained, just as you asked to entertain me.

i have no helper or planner except allah swt.

who can plan for tomorrow when he could not even plan for today?
Interesting choice of words when in previous threads in this forum you have invented lies against Allah SWT.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 03:48 PM
then grant me death,

the quran says long for death.. cant remember where so you can post the ayah when you have time.

lying, the last thing on my mind but the first thing out of my mouth.

subhan'allah

but the truth is i would only want that for myself not for you, inner workings of a madman.

anyway i had a feeling i should have left this thread a long time ago, im have nothing further to contribute..

sometimes i wish i could live and die without misguiding anybody.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-01-2011, 07:19 PM
___________________________________
Reply

جوري
10-01-2011, 07:26 PM
Actually there is a hadith that we're not to wish for death.. but rather say if life is better for me then grant me life and if death is better then grant me death.. I am not going to source that hadith hope someone else will insha'Allah since it took me quite sometime looking for the verses against the pharaoh I don't have all day to look things up..

:w:
Reply

Aprender
10-01-2011, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
What??? Why the teaching of the Quran echoes Christian teaching?
Christians believe in one God in three Persons, the Triune God - the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit – Holy Trinity undivided and one in essence.
Christians believe in the Incarnation of God the Son, His human and Divine nature (which are undivided in Jesus Christ, who is one person), His sacrifice on the Cross on behalf of us all, His glorious Resurrection, Ascension into Heaven (in human nature), His approaching Second Coming in glory to judge the living and the dead when His Kingdom will have no end.
Christians believe in the Covenant with their God, the Covenant of the New Testament, Covenant made possible through the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. And except if you are in this Holy Covenant with God, there is no salvation possible for you.
The message for Christians is that the salvation is made possible by Christ, and only by Christ; i.e. not by a prophet, righteous, but only by the incarnated God in the person of Jesus Christ, according the Christian teaching:
Matthew 21:11
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

Matthew 21:45-46
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

Ezekiel 18:20
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Matthew 15:8-10
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’” 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand.

John 17:3-4
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-01-2011, 07:57 PM
As'Salaam Alaaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Actually there is a hadith that we're not to wish for death.. but rather say if life is better for me then grant me life and if death is better then grant me death.. I am not going to source that hadith hope someone else will insha'Allah since it took me quite sometime looking for the verses against the pharaoh I don't have all day to look things up..

:w:
Here's the hadeeth uktee.

'The Book Pertaining to the Remembrance of Allah, Supplication, Repentance and Seeking Forgiveness (Kitab Al-Dhikr)' (6480)

Anas (b. Malik) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying. None of you should make a request for death because of the trouble in which he is involved, but if there is no other help to it, then say: O Allah, keep me alive as long as there is goodness in life for me and bring death to me when there is goodness in death for me. [Sahih Al Muslim]
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M.I.A.
10-01-2011, 08:10 PM
firstly

i apolagise to bro ramadhan, i have a lot of misdirected stupidity underneath my ignorance.. not on facebook either.


secondly,

i remember it as: if you believe then long for death

your spot on, you can easily replace "long for" with "prepare" if you understand.. and depending on your stance in life.

the point is that whoever is sent before you is definitely sent by the permission of allah swt..

irl i really do not open my mouth because i am aware of that.
so i guess whatever is sent for me.. i might not be content with, but i accept and learn from.

but you must understand there is much bitterness in me.. not towards people, only the actions.

a broken person on the inside. does not translate well in any medium
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جوري
10-01-2011, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
a broken person on the inside. does not translate well in any medium
May Allah swt give you strength, make you steadfast and guide you to the straight path.. I felt sad by what you wrote.. I pray you feel whole again soon insha'Allah..

:w:
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Daniel Hoseiny
10-02-2011, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

So, christians believe it must have been the devil that revealed God's messages to prophet Muhammad SAW because angels would never hurt a prophet.

It cannot be more of an irony as in the previous post I pasted this passage from bible:

So, since according to Legal_alien only a satan can hurt a prophet, than in the wrestling match between Jacob and God, christians must believe that God = Satan.
Being squeezed is nothing compared to dislocating a hip. Then it must have been big strong satan that was wrestling with Jacob (pbut)
So, let’s take a close look at the context of this passage.
In fulfilment of God’s prophesy / will, holy patriarch Jacob moved back to the land of Canaan . On his way back he had to meet Esau, his brother. Although God protected Jacob from every danger, Jacob was pretty much afraid of this meeting with Esau because he thought that his brother Esau was still angry with him. In order to strengthen him and to assure him of His protection, first God showed him the angelic host:
And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (Genesis 32)
Afterwards, Jacob wrestled with God Who took an image of a man. Undoubtedly the meaning of this event is to encourage Jacob and to assure him of God’s protection in relation to the approaching meeting with Esau (and other future dangers), whom Jacob was afraid of. This is clear from the following verse:
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Moreover it is not said that Jacob felt much pain. Notice that Jacob still wrestled with God, - even though He touched the hollow of his thigh, - till he received His blessing, Of course in a normal situation it is painful indeed, but in this case it was God Who visited him in this way. Undoubtedly – God is powerful to change the course of nature in this case as well, as is the case with the bush that was burning with fire, yet was not consumed by it (Exodus 3), the ringstraked, speckled, grisled cattle of Jacob (Genesis 31), the sun that stood still for some time (Joshua 10) etc.
Nowhere is mentioned about the terror, painful or tormenting experience; that’s why it was certainly not a demon who wrestled with Jacob.
On the contrary, it is evident that this experience was actually a blessing, consolation and joy for Jacob because he was more assured now that he will have power with men, according to God’s word.

In peace,
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-02-2011, 08:56 PM
Thank you for all your quotes from the Bible. It’s such a delight to read God's Word!
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Matthew 21:11
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

Matthew 21:45-46
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

Matthew 15:8-10
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’” 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand.
John 17:3-4
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.[/QUOTE]

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16)
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Numbers 23:19
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1)
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Note, I’ve not said that we are guilty for what Adam and Eve had done. The two concepts of guilt / responsibility and of consequence / result are not the same and have a different meaning. So, we suffer the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin, but we are responsible for our own sins.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. (1 Corinthians 15)
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-02-2011, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
'Legal Alien'-- you're persistently dodging the query of why god would put god to death on a cross for a painful death, after said god spent the night in prayer to avoid such a fate.. The Q is not going to go away just because you bury your head in the sand..

best,
Actually I’ve already answered your question in one of my previous posts:
When the Lord was crucified, it was His human Body and Soul that endured suffering. God the Son in His Divinity didn’t suffer anything. Moreover Jesus did it out of His Divine love for men, not because somebody compelled it Him to do this (as is the case with Mohammed).

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10: 18)

Furthermore the suffering was only temporary. The cause of it is the love for men. Jesus endured suffering and in three days rose up from the dead in order to redeem the mankind from the tyranny of sin and dead. He did it by taking upon himself the sin of the world (and of all of us) and accepting the curse / suffering which the mankind deserved because of their sins. That’s why you have to accept Christ as your personal Redeemer and join His Church if you want to be justified from your sins (if you are aware of them of course).

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (Romans 6: 9)

The same commandment of love He gives to His followers:

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15: 13)

I don’t know if Muslims agree with this commandment, but this is what Jesus did for us, men.
As I said it was Jesus’ human nature that suffered; consequently, if you’ve read it attentively, you should have understood by now that when Jesus prayed, He acted as the Human being (for He is God incarnate, i.e. God that took on human nature, remaining God at the same time). In anticipation of His suffering and death His soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death (Matthew 26) for He is the Man (and God at the same time), the Man without sin, but not without sinless feelings that are characteristic for all humans.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows (Isaiah 53; a prophesy about Jesus).
I hope you’re a bit satisfied with this short answer; in fact it’s not about Christianity here, in this thread, it’s about Islam here.
Reply

جوري
10-02-2011, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
As I said it was Jesus’ human nature that suffered; consequently, if you’ve read it attentively, you should have understood by now that when Jesus prayed, He acted as the Human being (for He is God incarnate, i.e. God that took on human nature, remaining God at the same time). In anticipation of His suffering and death His soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death (Matthew 26) for He is the Man (and God at the same time), the Man without sin, but not without sinless feelings that are characteristic for all humans.
This is a none-answer. You alleged previously that one shouldn't suffer the hands of God or an angel 'only demons' cause suffering-- at least as far as prophet Mohammad is concerned, yet so hypocritical when it comes to Jesus whose fate was apparently worst than a squeeze but a painful crucifixion. So What if it is his human nature that suffered if I am to forgo all logic of his nature and accept things at face value it still begs the question.. Why should he suffer at all in any form?
It isn't about Christianity only as you're stumped for a logical reply!
Don't pose inane questions and/or conclusions if you can't justify them as far as your own beliefs are concerned.
Like the other asinine christian tenet that alleges 'God loves every body' Yet said God also sees fit to create hell to dunk those whom he apparently so loves!

best,
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-02-2011, 09:24 PM
If I have hurt someone with any of my words, please forgive me, I’m sorry.
Reply

جوري
10-02-2011, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
If I have hurt someone with any of my words, please forgive me, I’m sorry.
What you're capable of is repeating the froth of your forefathers without foresight as to how to reconcile it with your own personal belief system!

best,
Reply

Amigo
10-02-2011, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Why should he suffer at all in any form?
Because of our sins. Evil people always causes innocents to suffer and no one is more innocent than God.
Only God can not be destroyed by mere creatures no matter how evil they get. They can only reach as far as possible for them, they can destroy the human nature, but not the divine nature. But it is one person, thanks to his divine nature, he not only go through death, like all humans do, but he restore the human nature, what regular humans can not do, and which causes them to remain prisoners of death.
If you are human you know that you share in both the spiritual and the animal natures. When an animal attacks you, it can only destroy so far as its nature permit, in fact, only that which you share with it, but it can not destroy your spiritual nature.
About every human ask the question 'where do we go after death?' they know that death as far as it means desintegration of the body, it affect just that, the body, but their souls 'go' somewhere. It is amazing when Muslims forget this when it talking about Jesus death. Christians don't just believe that he died, they also believe that the rose from the dead.



format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
'God loves every body' Yet said God also sees fit to create hell to dunk those whom he apparently so loves!
Yes, God loves everyone. This love is hell for those who are allergic to love: God. It is not God's fault, it is their evil nature they have chosen which is incompatible with love, and therefore suffer at its presence and unavoidable omnipotence. However, this love is heaven for the good for they are good and delight in love.
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جوري
10-02-2011, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Because of our sins. Evil people always causes innocents to suffer and no one is more innocent than God.
Only God can not be destroyed by mere creatures no matter how evil they get. They can only reach as far as possible for them, they can destroy the human nature, but not the divine nature.
If you are human you know that you share in both the spiritual and the animal natures. When an animal attacks you, it can only destroy so far as its nature permit, in fact, only that which you share with it, but it can not destroy your spiritual nature.
This is meaningless, there were a zillion prophets before Jesus and god didn't feel it necessary to leave the universe behind pop up in beyt lahm or Nazereth to suckle, dress like a pauper and then die a miserable death during any of those times! he forgave just fine too without the need to be human. I know that is what they force feed you in your churches.. it hasn't made sense then & it still doesn't make sense now no matter how many times you parrot it.
If you believe a painful torment is a demonic thing, then the god you worship and the god who self-immolated (thereby breaking his commandments against suicide amongst others) is not only meek & ineffectual but isn't a 'Good' God by any means!




Yes, God loves everyone. This love is hell for those who are allergic to love: God. It is not God's fault, it is their evil nature they have chosen which is incompatible with love, and therefore suffer at its presence and unavoidable omnipotence. However, this love is heaven for the good for they are good and delight in love.
That's a contradiction in terms, a God that loves everyone should also love they whom he created to have allergies! And a God that loves ALL wouldn't want to dunk any into hell.

try to work on the details of your religion, it is what makes you a failure (collectively) at proselytizing.. the stuff you concoct isn't only laughable, completely incompatible with what is written in your books but defies all common sense & logic..

best,
Reply

Amigo
10-02-2011, 11:20 PM
God is absolutly non-violent, if it is God, absolute divinity, then it is illogical to think that any violence can come from God.
Violence can only come from imperfect beings.
God's way of 'destroying' evil, is to let it spent itself on Him, since He knows that He can not be destroyed by it.


format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
it hasn't made sense then & it still doesn't make sense now
Heheh, speak only for yourself:)


format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
what is written in your books but defies all common sense & logic..
The Christian Faith never appeal to common sense and logic, but to good sense and logic.

If man would act well, he would have good sense and logic. But in his arrogance, he chooses to do that which is evil in his heart, damage his good sense, and wants everything to make sense with his damaged sense of logic. This become tragic when man starts attributing evils to God.
God is perfect, all light, all goodness, all innocent, and absolutely non-violent. If it does not make sense to us, we should pray for healing and enlightment.
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Tyrion
10-03-2011, 12:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The Christian Faith never appeal to common sense and logic,
Yup, glad you see it too.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2011, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
God is absolutly non-violent, if it is God, absolute divinity, then it is illogical to think that any violence can come from God.
Violence can only come from imperfect beings.
God's way of 'destroying' evil, is to let it spent itself on Him, since He knows that He can not be destroyed by it.
aha.. you ought to acquaint yourself with the bible :D


  1. "I will destroy ... both man and beast."
    God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
  2. "Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
    God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
  3. "All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
    God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
  4. God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17
  5. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
  6. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
  7. "I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
    I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a **** about children. 18:32
  8. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
  9. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24
  10. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
  11. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7
  12. Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
  13. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
  14. Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
  15. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
  16. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5
  17. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
  18. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
  19. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by *****dom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24
  20. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19
  21. God brought a seven year, "very greivous" famine on the whole earth for no apparent reason (except maybe to make Joseph wealthy). 41:25-32, 54 Exodus
  22. Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
  23. "I will ... smite Egypt with all my wonders." 3:20
  24. God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23
  25. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
  26. Moses and Aaron ask the Pharaoh to let all the Israelites go into the desert to pray for three days, or else God will kill them all "with pestilence, or with the sword." 5:3
  27. "Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh." 6:1
  28. God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4
  29. "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
  30. God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. 7:17-24
  31. The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die. 9:2-6
  32. The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12
  33. "For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth." Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14
  34. God gave power to the Pharaoh so that he could show off his own power by killing him. 9:15-16
  35. The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25
  36. God wants to be remembered forever for the mass murder of little children. 10:2
  37. These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
  38. God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
  39. God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12
  40. After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
  41. To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
  42. "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." 14:4
  43. After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea 14:4-28
  44. The LORD shall fight for you 14:14
  45. "I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour." 14:17
  46. "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen." 14:18
  47. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians." 14:26
  48. "And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians." 14:31
  49. Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19
  50. "The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3
  51. God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
  52. "For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them." 15:19
  53. "Horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea." 15:21
  54. If you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26
  55. Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13
  56. "I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven." 17:14
  57. "The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:14-16
  58. Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13
  59. Like the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, nobody can see God and live. 19:21
  60. God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
  61. A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
  62. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
  63. If an ox gores someone, "then the ox shall surely be stoned." 21:28
  64. If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29
  65. If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32
  66. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
  67. "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
  68. "He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
  69. If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
  70. "The firstborn of thy sons thou shalt give unto me." (As a burnt offering?) 22:29
  71. God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
  72. Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
  73. Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around -- in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
  74. Have your killed and offered your bullock for a sin offering today? How about the two lambs you are supposed to offer each day? 29:36-39
  75. Wash up or die. 30:20-21
  76. Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be "cut off from his people." 30:33
  77. Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
  78. God asks to be left alone so that his "wrath may wax hot" and he can "consume them. 32:10
  79. Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
  80. God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
  81. "Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." 32:33
  82. But God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
  83. If you can't redeem him, then just "break his neck." Hey, it's all for the glory of God. 34:20
  84. Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3 Leviticus
  85. God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9
  86. "Kill the bullock before the LORD ... bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar." 1:5
  87. "Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces." 1:6
  88. Lay ... the head, and the fat ... on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs ... burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice ... a sweet savour unto the LORD." 1:8-9
  89. "Kill ... before the Lord and ... sprinkle blood round about." 1:11
  90. "Cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat ... and burn it ... for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 1:12-13
  91. "If the burnt sacrifice ... be of fowls ... wring off his head, and burn it ... and the blood thereof shall be wrung out." 1:14-15
  92. "For a sweet savour unto the Lord." 1:17
  93. "Part it in pieces... it is a meat offering." 2:6
  94. "It is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire." 2:10
  95. "He shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it ... and .... sprinkle the blood ... round about." 3:2
  96. "The fat that covereth the inwards ... and the two kidneys ... and the caul above the liver.... It is ... a sweet savour unto the Lord." 3:3-5
  97. "He shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it ... and .... sprinkle the blood ... round about." 3:8
  98. "The fat ... the whole rump ... the inwards ... the two kidneys ... burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the LORD." 3:9-11
  99. "If his offering be a goat ... he shall lay his hand upon the head ... and kill it ... and ... sprinkle the blood ... round about." 3:12-13
  100. "The fat that covereth the inwards ... the two kidneys ... and the caul above the liver ... burn them upon the altar; it is the food of the ooffering made by fire for a sweet savour." 3:14-16
  101. "All the fat is the Lord's."
    When you do your burnt offerings, remember that "all the fat is the Lord's." (And he doesn't like to share!) 3:16
  102. "Kill the bullock before the Lord and take of the bullock's blood." 4:4
  103. "The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 4:6
  104. "Put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar ... and ... pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar." 4:7
  105. "Take ... all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards ... the two kidneys ... and the caul above the liver ... and ... burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering." 4:8-10
  106. "And the skin of the bullock, and all his flesh, with his head, and with his legs, and his inwards, and his dung...."
    What to do with the fat, kidneys, liver, skin, head, entrails, and dung from your burnt offerings. 4:11-12
  107. "Offer a young bullock for the sin ... The bullock shall be killed before the Lord." 4:14-15
  108. "Bring of the bullock's blood ... And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 4:16-17
  109. "Put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar ... and ... pour out all the blood ... and ... take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar." 4:18-19
  110. "He shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it." 4:24-25
  111. "The priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood ... and he shall burn all his fat upon the altar." 4:25-26
  112. "Slay the sin offering ... and the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering ... and shall pour out all the blood." 4:29-30
  113. "He shall take away all the fat ... and ... burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD." 4:31
  114. "Slay the sin offering ... and the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering and shall pour out all the blood." 4:33-35
  115. "He shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD ... a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats."
    If you touch an insect, dead animal, or "the uncleanness of man" or if you swear to do something good or bad (5:2-4), kill a female lamb or goat for God. (A female will do since it's a minor offense.) 5:6
  116. "If he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring ... two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD ... and wring off his head."
    If you don't have a lamb to kill for God, then you can wring off the head of a pigeon or dove. 5:7
  117. "And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering." 5:9
  118. "The Lord spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul ... sin through ignorance ... then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish."
    If you sin without knowing that you've done anything wrong, kill an unblemished ram for God. 5:14-15
  119. "This is the law of the sin offering: the sin offering [shall] be killed before the LORD: it is most holy." 6:25
  120. "The trespass offering: it is most holy"
    The holy law of trespass offering: Find an animal; kill it; sprinkle the blood around; offer God the fat, rump, kidneys, and caul; burn and eat it in the holy place, for "it is most holy." 7:1-6
  121. Kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar." 7:2
  122. "Offer of it all the fat thereof; the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them ... and the caul that is above the liver." 7:3
  123. "It shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings." 7:14
  124. Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 7:18-27
  125. "The fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved for a wave offering before the LORD." Wave the fat and the breast for "a wave offering before the Lord." 7:30
  126. "And the priest shall burn the fat upon the altar: but the breast shall be Aaron's and his sons'." 7:31
  127. "And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest for an heave offering." 7:32
  128. "He among the sons of Aaron, that offereth the blood of the peace offerings, and the fat, shall have the right shoulder for his part."
    Aaron's sons get the right shoulder from all peace offerings. 7:33
  129. "For the wave breast and the heave shoulder ... a statute for ever."
    Be sure to do your wave breast or heave shoulder today. It is a statute forver. 7:34
  130. Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 8:14-32
  131. "Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bullock for the sin offering and he slew it." 8:14-15
  132. "Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger .. and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar." 8:15
  133. "And he took all the fat that was upon the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and their fat, and Moses burned it upon the altar." 8:16
  134. "But the bullock, and his hide, his flesh, and his dung, he burnt with fire without the camp; as the LORD commanded Moses." 8:17
  135. "Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram. And he killed it." 8:18-19
  136. "Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about." 8:19
  137. "And he cut the ram into pieces; and Moses burnt the head, and the pieces, and the fat." 8:20
  138. "And he washed the inwards and the legs in water; and Moses burnt the whole ram upon the altar: it was a burnt sacrifice for a sweet savour, and an offering made by fire unto the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses." 8:21
  139. "Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram. And he slew it." 8:22-23
  140. "Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot." 8:23
  141. "And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about." 8:24
  142. "And he took the fat, and the rump, and all the fat that was upon the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and their fat, and the right shoulder." 8:25
  143. "And he put all upon Aaron's hands, and upon his sons' hands, and waved them for a wave offering before the LORD." 8:27
  144. "Moses ... burnt them ... for a sweet savour." 8:28
  145. "And Moses took the breast, and waved it for a wave offering before the LORD." 8:29
  146. "And Moses took ... of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments." 8:30
  147. "Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh." 8:31
  148. And that which remaineth of the flesh .... shall ye burn with fire." 8:32
  149. More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 9:2-21
  150. "Take thee a young calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the LORD." 9:2
  151. "Take ye a kid of the goats for a sin offering; and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, for a burnt offering." 9:3
  152. "Also a bullock and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the LORD; and a meat offering." 9:4
  153. Kill the calf, dip your finger in the blood, sprinkle the blood round about, burn the fat and entrails, and wave the breast for a wave offering before the Lord. 9:8-21
  154. "Aaron ... slew the calf of the sin offering." 9:8
  155. "And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar." 9:9
  156. "But the fat, and the kidneys, and the caul above the liver of the sin offering, he burnt upon the altar; as the LORD commanded Moses." 9:10
  157. "And the flesh and the hide he burnt with fire without the camp." 9:11
  158. "And he slew the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar." 9:12
  159. "And they presented the burnt offering unto him, with the pieces thereof, and the head: and he burnt them upon the altar." 9:13
  160. "And he did wash the inwards and the legs, and burnt them upon the burnt offering on the altar." 9:14
  161. "And he ... took the goat ... the people, and slew it." 9:15
  162. "He slew also the bullock and the ram ... and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about." 9:18
  163. "And the fat of the bullock and of the ram, the rump, and that which covereth the inwards, and the kidneys, and the caul above the liver." 9:19
  164. "And they put the fat upon the breasts, and he burnt the fat upon the altar." 9:20
  165. "And the breasts and the right shoulder Aaron waved for a wave offering before the LORD; as Moses commanded." 9:21
  166. Two of the sons of Aaron "offered strange fire before the Lord" and "there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." 10:1-2
  167. Moses tells Aaron that his sons were burned to death to sanctfy and glorify God. 10:3
  168. Moses tells Aaron's cousins to drag the burned bodies out of the camp, and he warns Aaron not to mourn the death of his sons or God will kill him too, along with everyone else. 10:4-6
  169. If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 10:6-9
  170. God will kill any priest that leaves the tabernacle. 10:7
  171. If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by by drinking "wine or strong drink," then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." "It shall be a statute for ever." 10:9
  172. "And the wave breast and heave shoulder shall ye eat in a clean place." 10:14
  173. "The heave shoulder and the wave breast ... bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the LORD." 10:15
  174. "She shall bring a lamb ... for a burnt offering, and... a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering."
    After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. 12:6
  175. "If she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons ... and she shall be clean." 12:8
  176. God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-32
  177. "Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean ... and the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water." 14:4
  178. "And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish ... And the priest shall take one he lamb, and offer him for a trespass offering ... and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD." 14:10-12
  179. "And he shall slay the lamb ... in the holy place: ... it is most holy." 14:13
  180. "And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and ... put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot." 14:14
  181. "The priest shall offer the sin offering ... and afterward he shall kill the burnt offering." 14:19
  182. "If he be poor, and cannot get so much; then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved ... and two turtledoves, or two young pigeons ... and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering." 14:21-22
  183. "And the priest shall take the lamb of the trespass offering ... and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:" 14:24
  184. "And he shall kill the lamb of the trespass offering, and the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot." 14:25
  185. "And he shall offer the one of the turtledoves, or of the young pigeons, such as he can get." 14:30
  186. "Even such as he is able to get, the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, with the meat offering." 14:31
  187. "When ye be come into the land of Canaan ... I put the plague of leprosy in ... the land of your possession."
    God "put the plague of leprosy" on the Canaanites. 14:34
  188. "He shall take to cleanse the house two birds ... And he shall kill the one of the birds ... And he shall take ... the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird ... and sprinkle the house seven times ... And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird." 14:49-52
  189. "On the eighth day he shall take to him two turtledoves, or two young pigeons ... and ... offer them, the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering." 15:14-15
  190. "On the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons ... for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness." 15:29-30
  191. God warns Aaron that he might have to burn him to death like he did his sons. (10:1-2) 16:1-2
  192. God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this: Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 16:8-28
  193. "Kill the bullock of the sin offering." 16:11
  194. "Take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it ... seven times." 16:14
  195. "Kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood ... and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat." 16:15
  196. "Take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about." 16:18
  197. "He shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times." 16:19
  198. Sprinkle the blood and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord. 17:6
  199. If you upset God, he'll cause the land to vomit you out. 18:25
  200. "Keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations ... that the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you." 18:26-28
  201. "Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations ... shall be cut off from among their people." 18:29
  202. Don't eat sacrifices on the third day or God will cut you off from among your people. 19:6-8
  203. Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 20:2
  204. If you refuse to kill someone who gives his seed to Molech, God set his face against you and your family. 20:4-5


by the way the list goes on & on & on I couldn't possibly stick it all in here!





Heheh, speak only for yourself:)
You've to do better than that note of desperation!



The Christian Faith never appeal to common sense and logic
very true, glad you've concluded that without help!

If man would act well, he would have good sense and logic. But in his arrogance, he chooses to do that which is evil in his heart, damage his good sense, and wants everything to make sense with his damaged sense of logic. This become tragic when man starts attributing evils to God.
God is perfect, all light, all goodness, all innocent, and absolutely non-violent. If it does not make sense to us, we should pray for healing and enlightment.
Switch the gods around & your dogma is also applicable to Hinduism!

best,
Reply

Ramadhan
10-03-2011, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
In order to strengthen him and to assure him of His protection
What you are saying above is not in the bible.
It is all your conjecture.

format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Afterwards, Jacob wrestled with God Who took an image of a man.
The bible does not say that Jacob wrestled with a God's image of a man, it says he wrestled with God. period.
"Your name will no longer be Jacob," the man told him. "From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have won." (genesis 32:28)
So Jacob named that place Peniel [Face of God], because he said, "I have seen God face to face, but my life was saved." (genesis 32:30)

You need to re-read your bible again. It seems christians have been force-spooned the meanings and interpretations of their bible by their priests etc while failing to actually read what's written in the bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Moreover it is not said that Jacob felt much pain. Notice that Jacob still wrestled with God, - even though He touched the hollow of his thigh, - till he received His blessing, Of course in a normal situation it is painful indeed, but in this case it was God Who visited him in this way. Undoubtedly – God is powerful to change the course of nature in this case as well, as is the case with the bush that was burning with fire, yet was not consumed by it (Exodus 3), the ringstraked, speckled, grisled cattle of Jacob (Genesis 31), the sun that stood still for some time (Joshua 10) etc.
It does not say Jacob felt much pain, but your bible does not say Jacob didn't feel much pain either. Stop making your own assumption.
Also, God only resorted to dislocate Jacob's hip because it was already daybreak and he couldn't win any other way. It was only after he dislocated Jacob's hip that the match ended.
No one is saying God is not powerful enough to change the course of nature, it is christians who allege that God was not powerful enough to strengthen Jacob (pbuh) without having to humiliate Himself and come down to earth to in a mud wrestling match with Jacob, only to lose.

Here, read again your bible:
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
When the man saw that he could not win against Jacob, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that it was dislocated as they wrestled.
Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."(Genesis 32:24-26)

Have you ever stopped to think for a second how ridiculous it all is?
Either God is ridiculous, or men wrote false accounts and attributed them to God.
Reply

Aprender
10-03-2011, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Note, I’ve not said that we are guilty for what Adam and Eve had done. The two concepts of guilt / responsibility and of consequence / result are not the same and have a different meaning. So, we suffer the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin, but we are responsible for our own sins.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The Christian Faith never appeal to common sense and logic, but to good sense and logic.

If man would act well, he would have good sense and logic. But in his arrogance, he chooses to do that which is evil in his heart, damage his good sense, and wants everything to make sense with his damaged sense of logic. This become tragic when man starts attributing evils to God.
God is perfect, all light, all goodness, all innocent, and absolutely non-violent. If it does not make sense to us, we should pray for healing and enlightment.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Yes, God loves everyone. This love is hell for those who are allergic to love: God. It is not God's fault, it is their evil nature they have chosen which is incompatible with love, and therefore suffer at its presence and unavoidable omnipotence. However, this love is heaven for the good for they are good and delight in love.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)
Reply

Amigo
10-03-2011, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
you ought to acquaint yourself with the bible
:) you ought to learn how to read Sacred Scipture! :)

The holy Law of the Perfect One says "you shall not kill", there are no 'but's attached :)

The Bible is sacred; when you look straight into the sun, you don't see clearer, you get blind.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2011, 05:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
hehe, you ought to learn how to read Sacred Scipture! :)
The operative word here is 'sacred' hehe.. & yours are as sacred as a holy cow!

best,
Reply

Ramadhan
10-03-2011, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The holy Law of the Perfect One says "you shall not kill", there are no 'but's attached
your sacred scripture also says this:
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
and this
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”

and yet christians also worship jesus (as) and holy spirit and say "The Lord is three in one"

Your sacred scripture also says:
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

and yet this is what christians do:



Reply

Amigo
10-03-2011, 11:03 AM
:) We don't do that out of hate of God, but out of love. It looks like you didn't even read the quote yourself!
As I keep saying, learn how to read the Bible, otherwise, you will be left to lean to your own understanding and it will all be as you will, but not necessary as God wills.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-03-2011, 11:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
We don't do that out of hate of God, but out of love. It looks like you didn't even read the quote yourself!
Talk is very cheap. Actions show.

When someone does something out of love for someone, they would try to always obey and fulfill what that someone ask them to do.

Now, when someone love God, they would always try to fulfill God's commands.

And God's greatest and most important commandments are these:
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

And yet christians break every single one of them, and claim they love God?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
As I keep saying, learn how to read the Bible,
And I keep saying, start reading your own bible.
Reply

Amigo
10-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Love is one of those things which can only be best evaluated by the one it is directed to or it is supposed to be directed to. It is useless for you to try to evaluate my love for God unless you are God:)
If it comes to evaluate my love for you, go for it:) Otherwise, don't be so aggressive and try to usurp the place of God, it is not wise.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-03-2011, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Love is one of those things which can only be best evaluated by the one it is directed to or it is supposed to be directed to. It is useless for you to try to evaluate my love for God unless you are God
I don't doubt you have good intention in worshiping God. Unfortunately your worship is not based on the Word of God (as you said yourself, bible is not Word of God), and hence you went astray.

Even your scripture says this:
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Surely anyone who profess to love God would try their best to obey His commands?
But as I have produced the evidence, christians break the most fundamental, most important of God's commands.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
If it comes to evaluate my love for you, go for it Otherwise, don't be so aggressive and try to usurp the place of God, it is not wise.
You might want to think again and look at the evidence who actually have usurped the place of God.

Yes, it's christians.

Here's my proof how christians usurped the place of God and replaced Him with mere men (alive and dead), statues, images, etc:










Christians even worship ancient torture equipment:

Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-03-2011, 06:28 PM
Ramadan,

In the tradition of my Church we use the two-dimensional images (icons) of Christ and His Saints to venerate them. The object of worship is not the image itself, but That One whom a particular image represents. Icons are just a helping tool for me to get closer to Christ and His Saints during the prayer. They help me to ascend sensibly to the Object of worship. Since God took on human nature in His holy Incarnation it is not more prohibited to make icons, because Christ has the real human face which can be depicted. This makes it possible to make images and crosses and worship God using them. The origin of this tradition is to be found in the Bible itself. The same God, who gave the ten commandments, gave also this commandment:

‘and thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.’ (Exodus 25)
Indeed It would be an idolatry and sin to worship the image itself, instead of Him who is depicted on it, in this case you would be right; but because we worship God of Heaven and earth (who dwells nor in temples, nor inside the works made with man’s hands) using the images like some kind of helping tool, your claim is completely wrong.
The same applies to the Holy Trinity. I agree with Muslims that there are no three gods, that it would be an idolatry to worship ‘three gods’. Your accusations would be right if we worshipped ‘three gods’, instead of the One. But because (theoretically as well as practically) it is simply not so, your blames are absolutely wrong.

By the way, why do Muslims worship Black Stone. Is it not idolatry? Can you explain this?

Peace,
Reply

Tyrion
10-03-2011, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
By the way, why do Muslims worship Black Stone. Is it not idolatry? Can you explain this?
We don't worship the black stone. Nice try.
Reply

Abz2000
10-03-2011, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
By the way, why do Muslims worship Black Stone. Is it not idolatry? Can you explain this?
people seem to confuse the black stone with the Ka'bah, the black stone is a unique corner stone of the ka'bah - it is not to be prayed to.
the Ka'bah is a prayer direction, just like Jerusalem was.


format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
The object of worship is not the image itself, but That One whom a particular image represents.
Icons are just a helping tool for me to get closer to Christ and His Saints during the prayer.
that's exactly what the Hindus say, and what the pagan Arabs used to say

3. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due?
But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say):
"We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah."
Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ.
But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
(Quran 39:3)
Reply

Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
In the tradition of my Church we use the two-dimensional images (icons) of Christ and His Saints to venerate them.
That's the operative word: "tradition of the church"

It was never tradition of Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his disciples, or any other prophets and messengers of God. using images/statues/likeness etc for worship is not only NOT a tradition of Jesus (pbuh) and ANY other prophets, but it is actually something that they WARNED AGAINST and to STAY AWAY FROM.

And by the way, the objects of worship by christians are mostly in THREE dimensions, not two dimensions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
By the way, why do Muslims worship Black Stone. Is it not idolatry? Can you explain this?
If only you stop parroting your priests and start learning by yourself, you would be able to differentiate between makkah, ka'bah, and hajar aswad and what they are. This is embarrassing to accuse of something and yet so far off the mark and do not even understand in the slightest bit the words you utter.

I understand that christians are mostly following and parroting what their church leaders say, for if they use their brains and start reading bible with clarity, and qur'an with clarity, and use their God-given capacity to reason, they'll know that God cannot be a creature.

By the way, please show me how muslims worship "black stone" before I answer your question.
Reply

Aprender
10-04-2011, 03:57 AM
As I said earlier in this thread. They have no proof as to why they believe what they believe about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh). It's just regurgitated filth that they've been fed in churches and in the surrounding community (i.e the "worship" of the black stone). This is all information that was stuffed into my brain about Islam when I went to church starting at a very young age with nothing to back it up but pure conjecture and disrespect.

Psalms 31:18
Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Some just will not understand.

Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
(Al Kafiroun)

I hope that someone will help elaborate on the answers that you were looking for in this thread my respected brother instead of coming in here and spreading lies without giving insight. I hope that legal_alien and Amigo at least clear some of the misconceptions about Islam that they have during their time here at the forum. May Allah have mercy on us all and keep us on the right path. Ameeeeeeeen.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
In the tradition of my Church we use the two-dimensional images (icons) of Christ and His Saints to venerate them. The object of worship is not the image itself, but That One whom a particular image represents. Icons are just a helping tool for me to get closer to Christ and His Saints during the prayer.
Worshiping icons and following what your church/predecessors/forefathers do/worship are nothing new, the people of Abraham (pbuh) already did it thousands of years ago, and here's God (swt) narrate the story of Abraham (pbuh):

And recite to them the news of Abraham,
When he said to his father and his people, "What do you worship?"
They said, "We worship idols and remain to them devoted."
He said, "Do they hear you when you supplicate?
Or do they benefit you, or do they harm?"
They said, "But we found our fathers doing thus."
He said, "Then do you see what you have been worshipping,
You and your ancient forefathers?
Indeed, they are enemies to me, except the Lord of the worlds,
Who created me, and He [it is who] guides me.
And it is He who feeds me and gives me drink.
And when I am ill, it is He who cures me
And who will cause me to die and then bring me to life
And who I aspire that He will forgive me my sin on the Day of Recompense."
[And he said], "My Lord, grant me authority and join me with the righteous.
And grant me a reputation of honor among later generations.
And place me among the inheritors of the Garden of Pleasure.
And forgive my father. Indeed, he has been of those astray.
(QS. 26:69-86)

And just like the father of Abraham (pbuh), christians are among those who are astray.
Reply

Amigo
10-04-2011, 01:20 PM
So you guys are capable of understanding that you don't worship the 'things' in Mecca, but you are unable to even suspect that Catholics may not be worshipping statues and icons? :) What should be done with you?:) you should be left alone :)

Concerning those catholics images, beautiful images by the way. Don't worry, you are not expected to understand what is going on with that attitude. Love belong to the lovers and to whom they decide to share it with. Love and Truth are those things you can't HAVE. You can only RECEIVE them. Otherwise, it wouldn't be love, and it wouldn't be truth.

By the way, Worship is a matter of love, it only goes to person through person.
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-04-2011, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
By the way, please show me how muslims worship "black stone" before I answer your question.
Unfortunately I am not able to paste any images or links here, because I’m limited member here. But take a look on these photos in this website below (paste the URL on your browser). May be some of the full members can paste them here. Let’s pay attention only at the photo’s there.

<Removed>

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
As I said earlier in this thread. They have no proof as to why they believe what they believe about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh). It's just regurgitated filth that they've been fed in churches and in the surrounding community (i.e the "worship" of the black stone). This is all information that was stuffed into my brain about Islam when I went to church starting at a very young age with nothing to back it up but pure conjecture and disrespect.
I hope that someone will help elaborate on the answers that you were looking for in this thread my respected brother instead of coming in here and spreading lies without giving insight. I hope that legal_alien and Amigo at least clear some of the misconceptions about Islam that they have during their time here at the forum. May Allah have mercy on us all and keep us on the right path. Ameeeeeeeen.
The honour, almost amounting to worship, still paid by Muslim pilgrims to the famous meteoric Hajaru'l Aswad or Black Stone, which is built into the wall of the Ka'bah, is one of the many islamic customs which have been derived from those of the Arabs who lived long before Muhammad's time - The kiss which the pious Muhammadan pilgrim bestows on it is a survival of the old practice, which was a form of worship in Arabia as in many other lands. Many tales were told regarding this stone in pre- Muhammadan times, and these are still firmly believed. A Tradition relates that it descended from Paradise, and was originaly of a pure white colour, but has become black through the sins of mankind, or, according to another account, through contact with the lips of One ceremonially impure. As it is now known to be of meteoric origin, part of the story is readily accounted for.

<Removed>

Yes, I agree; may Allah (Allah of Mohammed) have mercy on you all and keep you on the right path if he really exists. :)
You know, I see all the people as my dear brothers and sisters by Adam and Eve, and it’s painful for me to know that there are people who will perish forever because of the wrong beliefs they are committed to. This is not said to insult you, but I would like to express it honestly.

format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
that's exactly what the Hindus say, and what the pagan Arabs used to say
I don’t know about it; but I worship the true God, and they worship idols. That’s the difference.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
it is christians who allege that God was not powerful enough to strengthen Jacob (pbuh) without having to humiliate Himself and come down to earth to in a mud wrestling match with Jacob, only to lose.
No, I haven’t said that God was not powerful enough. It would be a blasphemy to say so, because God is Almighty. God was willing to act in that way. Why? It’s a mystery, no one can comprehend fully the reasons of why God acts in this or that way.

In peace,
Reply

Abz2000
10-04-2011, 04:06 PM
here's your list in your link - i will go through the points God Willing

Ritual retained, meaning redefined. Paganism spiritualized into monotheism:
Christmas December 25 was the birthday of the Pagan Mythra, the god of light. Christians practice the pagan festival but redefined Dec 25 as the birthday of Christ.
Pilgrimage and Circling Kaba 7x Each local tribe of Arab pagans walked 7 times around their own kaba that housed their own black stone. Muslims circle the Kaba, claiming Abraham did such.
Kissing black stone Each local tribe of Arab Pagans kissed their own tribal black stones. Muslims kiss black stone but say it was a divine meteorite that fell at Adam’s feet and was rediscovered by Abraham.
"The stone throw" at Mina Wide spread custom among Pagan Arabs. Muslims claim the custom was started by Abraham when he threw stones at the devil.
"The Run": Safa and Marwa Pagans ran between two idols, Isaf and Na’ila: Muslims perform the same running but redefine the meaning to be Hagar running between hills, looking for water for Ishmael.
"The Praise" after Pilgrimage Pagans praised dead ancestors Muslims perform the same praising but redirect the praise to Allah, and with more zeal!




Muslims kiss black stone but say it was a divine meteorite that fell at Adam’s feet and was rediscovered by Abraham.
since the link you used quoted acts to mention that it is an image which fell down from heaven - i'll give you a possible alternative:

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected,
the same is become the head of the corner:
this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken:
but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Matthew 21:42-44


1. the verses before mention the persecution of messengers by the Isrealites, and then goes on to inform them that a new nation will be granted the vicegerency of the Kingdom of God.

2. it mentions a unique cornerstone - and from it's falling and grinding to powder attribute - yes - that's what a meteorite does.

And I will sow her unto me in the earth;
and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy;
and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Hosea 2:23


this seems to mention Hajar - read below and Isaiah 54

Muslims perform the same running but redefine the meaning to be Hagar running between hills, looking for water for Ishmael.
this is in the bible:
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot:
for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar?
fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
Genesis 21


the hills of safa and marwah are a bow shot's distance away from the well.

The Well of Zamzam (or the Zamzam Well, or just Zamzam; Arabic: زمزم‎)
is a well located within the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, 20 m (66 ft) east of the Kaaba,the holiest place in Islam.
According to Islamic belief, it was a miraculously-generated source of water from God,
which began thousands of years ago when Abraham's (Ibrāhīm) infant sonIshmael (ʼIsmāʻīl) was thirsty and kept crying for water
and was kicking at the ground when water gushed out.
Millions of pilgrims visit the well each year while performing the Hajj or Umrahpilgrimages, in order to drink its water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well

Muslims claim the custom (of throwing stones at the pillars) was started by Abraham when he threw stones at the devil.
i'm sure you are aware that certain representations of the prophet's (pbut) are followed, but to an extent which does not venture into blasphemy.
do you not pretend to eat the flesh and blood of "god"?

Muslims circle the Kaba, claiming Abraham did such.
yes - the fact that Abraham was guided to a place which was already designated is also mentioned in the bible:

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out,
not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hebrews 11

now we know that names have been misplaced in the bible in order to misappropriate the attributes of people - but the content here is of importance, it clearly shows that Abraham was searching for a place and the Quran tells us that he prayed to God Almighty and mentioned the house as he left Hajar and Ishmael,

Remember Abraham said: "O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security: and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.
36. "O my Lord! they have indeed led astray many among mankind; He then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me,- but Thou art indeed Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
37. "O our Lord! I have made of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House;
in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.
38. "O our Lord! truly Thou dost know what we conceal and what we reveal: for nothing whatever is hidden from Allah, whether on earth or in heaven.
39. "Praise be to Allah, Who hath granted unto me in old age Isma'il and Isaac: for truly my Lord is He, the Hearer of Prayer!
40. O my Lord! make me one who establishes regular Prayer, and also (raise such) among my offspring O our Lord! and accept Thou my Prayer.
41. "O our Lord! cover (us) with Thy Forgiveness - me, my parents, and (all) Believers, on the Day that the Reckoning will be established!


the house is mentioned - despite him leaving them "in a valley without cultivation" (A DESOLATE VALLEY), WITH NO-ONE THERE.

now you may say the city with foundations is in Quds, but we know from the above verses in Hebrews that the foundations of Abraham's sought for city were already there.
and the Prophecy of the foundations appears in future tense in the book of revelation - after Abraham.
and so is it here:
but here it speaks of a different location:

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.2Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel;
The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

This is talking about Hajar - and if you check the demographics - you will see that:


more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
and the fastest growing globally

Muslims perform the same praising but redirect the praise to Allah, and with more zeal!
we are instructed to do so in the Quran:

So when ye have accomplished your holy rites,
remember Allah, as ye used to remember your forefathers,- rather with far more remembrance.
There are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.
And there are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us good in this world and good in the Hereafter, and defend us from the torment of the Fire!"
To these will be allotted what they have earned; and Allah is quick in account.
Quran 2:200-202




Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein:
Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.
Quran 2:121


and regarding the smith and the destroyer - read Quran chapter 18 - Dhul Qarnain vs Gog and Magog.
http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_tran...nslation18.php

i didn't bother with the first point - as it is irrelevant to the topic, i did mention the five points on Islam - hope you'll find it useful.
peace
Reply

Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
So you guys are capable of understanding that you don't worship the 'things' in Mecca, but you are unable to even suspect that Catholics may not be worshipping statues and icons? What should be done with you? you should be left alone
First of all, what "things"?
Please be clearer.

I understand that it is not in the tradition of christiniaty to make things clear and to separate truth from falsehoods, but for us muslims, truth is clear from any falsehood and hence it is of utmost important to guard truth from getting mixed with falsehoods, just like the jews and pagan romans did with the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).

But since all you can say is parroting your priests without actually learning what you accuse of, I'll give short version. Although you may not even read what I write, as evidenced by your inability to understand clear explanations given on the subjects, but here it is:

Muslims pray shalah (act of worship) 5 times a day towards the direction of Ka'bah (NOT the black stone, I hope by now you know the difference of ka'bah and the black stone), just like solomon and jesus (pbut) who offered their worships towards the direction of the temple in Jerusalem. facing towards the direction of ka'bah is called qiblah, the same as jewish' mizrah who faces towards the temple in Jerusalem.
Read your bible:
When your people go to war against their enemies, wherever you send them, and when they pray to the LORD toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name, (1 Kings:48) and there are also others biblical verses that command to pray towards the temple in jerusalem.

Muslims used to offer shalah towards masjidil aqsa (the temple in jerisalem), until Allah revealed that qiblah was changed towards ka'bah.
So Ka'bah is just a marker, a direction in the centre of a holy masjid (or holy temple for jews), and similar to the masjid/temple in Jerusalem.
Even if ka'bah is destroyed, muslims would still perform shalah towards it.

Maybe you actually have no idea that early christians all prayed towards the direction of jerusalem?
That is, until the pagan romans abandoned the practice of the prophets (pbut) and started their own pagan traditions labeled as christianity such as easter, christmas, etc.
Didn't your priests tell you anything about the ACTUAL teachings and tradition of Jesus (pbuh) or are they busy peddling the tradition of their own?

To summarize the point (in case you didn't understand any of the above):

For muslims, ka'bah does not represent our object of worship in any way, while for christians, they venerate the images/statues/likeness of jesus/mary/saints because they represent their objects of worships.

So that is the difference.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
By the way, Worship is a matter of love, it only goes to person through person.
This is your opinion, certainly not an opinion of your god at all, for God in the bible has laid down limitations in worship:

Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Interestingly, no christian here has explained why these greatest and most important commandments from God do not mean anything anymore for christians.
Reply

Abz2000
10-04-2011, 06:15 PM
and did the roman emperor change the sabbath out of love also?
because in Jesus' (pbuh) time - it was saturday.
the seventh day.
Reply

Abz2000
10-05-2011, 02:19 AM
i also found something else:
something similar the word Jerusalem is first found in the ancient egyptian texts at around 2000bc to refer to a city,
and then later the word Jerusalem is used after Moses and during Joshua's time to refer to Al-Quds.
so when the book of revelation speaks of a new Jerusalem - we do not know if it is referring to the meaning of the word - or the name later given to the land called Quds (Sacred) in Islam.

what we do know from the Bible (Isaiah 53) AND the Quran is that there is a covenant of peace made at the place where Hajar migrated to.

and here's what i found:

A city called Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Foundation of Shalem)
appears in ancient Egyptianrecords as the first two references to Jerusalem, in c. 2000 BCE and c. 1330 BCE respectively.
The form Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) first appears in the Bible, in the book of Joshua.
This form has the appearance of a portmanteau (blend) of Yireh (an abiding place of the fear and the service of God)
and the original root S-L-M and is not a simple phonetic evolution of the form in the Amarna letters.
The meaning of the common root S-L-M is unknown but is thought to refer to either "peace" (Salam or Shalom in modern Arabic and Hebrew)
or Shalim, the god of dusk in the Canaanite religion.
Typically the ending -im indicates the plural in Hebrew grammar and -ayim the dual,
thus leading to the suggestion that the name refers to the fact that the city sits on two hills.
However the pronunciation of the last syllable as -ayim appears to be a late development, which had not yet appeared at the time of the Septuagint.

Islam is a verbal noun originating from the triliteral root S-L-M which forms a large class of words mostly relating to concepts of wholeness, peace, continence, completion and bonding/joining. In a religious context it means "to be at peace through voluntary submission to God".
Muslim, the word for an adherent of Islam, is the active participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive.
Believers demonstrate submission to God by serving God and following His commands, and rejecting polytheism.
The word sometimes has distinct connotations in its various occurrences in the Qur'an. In some verses (ayat), there is stress on the quality of Islam as an internal conviction: "Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam." Other verses connect islām and dīn (usually translated as "religion"):
"Today, I have perfected your religion (dīn) for you; I have completed My blessing upon you; I have approved Islam for your religion."


And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:
but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 21


Today, more than 13 million Muslims visit Mecca annually, including several million during the few days of the Hajj.
As a result, Mecca has become one of the most cosmopolitan and diverse cities in the Muslim world,
although non-Muslims remain formally prohibited from entering the city.
quite a coincidence isn't it:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

Another name for Mecca, or the wilderness and mountains surrounding it, according to Arab and Islamic tradition, is Faran or Pharan.

(the arabic alphabet has no "p").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

you know from Genesis that Ishmael dwelt in Paran don't you?


and you know there was a covenant at Sinai?

and you also know that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the only Messenger to bring a complete law after Prophet Moses (pbuh) - and that they were awaiting this?

and do you also know that when he embarked on the conquest of Mecca - he happened to muster together 10,000 believers?

Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, the leader of the Quraysh in Mecca, sensing that the balance was now tilted in Muhammad's favour and that the Quraish were not strong enough to stop the Muslims from conquering the city, travelled to Medina, trying to restore the treaty. During his stay, he was repulsed by Ali and by his own daughter Ramlah, who now was one of Muhammad's wives. Though Muhammad refused to reach an agreement and Abu Sufyan returned to Mecca empty handed, these efforts ultimately ensured that the conquest occurred without battle.
Muhammad assembled an army of approximately 10,000 men and marched towards Mecca.
Again Abu Sufyan travelled back and forth between Mecca and Muhammad, still trying to reach a settlement. According to the sources, he found assistance in Muhammad's uncle Al-Abbas, though some scholars consider that historians writing under the rule of Abbas' descendants, the Abbasid Dynasty, had exaggerated Abbas' role and downplayed the role of Abu Sufyan, who was the ancestor of the Abbaside's enemies.
[edit]Aftermath

On the eve of the conquest, Abu Sufyan adopted Islam. When asked by Muhammad, he conceded that the Meccan gods had proved powerless and that there was indeed "no god but Allah", the first part of the Islamic confession of faith. In turn, Muhammad declared Abu Sufyan's house a sanctuary:
"He Who enters the house of Abu Sufyan will be safe, He who lays down arms will be safe, He who locks his door will be safe".[5]He also declared:
Allah has made Mecca a sanctuary since the day He created the Heavens and the Earth, and it will remain a sanctuary by virtue of the sanctity Allah has bestowed on it until the Day of Resurrection. It (fighting in it) was not made lawful to anyone before me. Nor will it be made lawful to anyone after me, and it was not made lawful for me except for a short period of time. Its animals (that can be hunted) should not be chased, nor should its trees be cut, nor its vegetation or grass uprooted, nor its Luqata (most things) picked up except by one who makes a public announcement about it.


And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.:
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

3Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Deuteronomy 33


.................Must've been an important blessing as it was at the time of death.

Just google 10,000 makkah



And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
"What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
Quran 5:83-85
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-05-2011, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
and did the roman emperor change the sabbath out of love also?
because in Jesus' (pbuh) time - it was saturday.
the seventh day.
It’s probably the same as asking you why do Muslims have worship day on Friday and not on Saturday. You would explain it form the prospective of your religion, so would I.


format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
and you also know that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the only Messenger to bring a complete law after Prophet Moses (pbuh) - and that they were awaiting this?


How can you believe someone who even doesn’t know what’s going on with himself and who needs the assistance of others in order to believe that everything is probably okay? It was Mohammed himself who first said that he was possessed.

Muhammad woke up and began to wonder if he was demon possessed. Afraid that the local Quraysh tribes would think he was indeed demon possessed he considered throwing himself down a mountain to kill himself but on the way up the mountain he heard a voice saying he was the apostle of God. Instead of committing suicide, Muhammad decided to tell his wife, Khadija, of his dream and of his fear of demon possession. Khadija sought advice from her cousin who was a Christian. When he heard the story he assured her that Muhammad must be a prophet.
Links that you may find interesting:

<Removed>

In peace,
Reply

Ramadhan
10-05-2011, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Yes, I agree; may Allah (Allah of Mohammed) have mercy on you all and keep you on the right path if he really exists.
So you don't believe in God?

Or Do christians only believe in God if they can see Him and if He goes to the toilet doing #1 and #2 and suckled from the breasts of a virgin and dies?

Also I find it curious about christians as what christians believe in is very little taken from what Jesus (pbuh) believed in. It seems centuries of latin paganisms have more influence in christianity than the actual teachings of Jesus (pbuh).
You may not believe that God exists, but Jesus (pbuh) certainly did.
Here's what he (pbuh) called God in his own aramaic language:

From http://www.pes*hitta.org/
(remove the star and go to "lexicon", it is an english-aramaic dictionary based on your own bible)


Word: hl0
Lexeme: 0hl0
Root: hl0
Word Number: 904
Meaning: God
Pronunciation: (Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Masculine
Person:
Number: Singular
State: Absolute
Tense:
Form:
Suffix Gender:
Suffix Person:
Suffix Number: Singular
Lexeme Form:



so we see not only did Jesus (pbuh) believed in Allah swt, but He (pbuh) also called Allah whenever he (pbuh) was in distress, whenever he (pbuh) commanded the jews who to worship, whenever he (pbuh) ever need of anything.


Reply

M.I.A.
10-05-2011, 11:31 PM
thats harsh,
you cant post how we should say saw on all the prophets and then post that.
thats the world for you.

everybodies the same, say one thing..do another.
or is it justified to stoop to someone elses level?

do not feed the trolls.
its like isreal and palestine, you can have as many talks as you want but the undertones never change.
Reply

Tyrion
10-05-2011, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Links that you may find interesting: **Links to stories about Muslims converting to Christianity**
Lol, okay, so your intentions have become increasingly clearer... But do you really want to play this game? For every story of a "muslim" who converted to Christianity, we can give you 10 stories of Christian ministers/preachers/laymen converting to Islam.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-06-2011, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
thats harsh,
you cant post how we should say saw on all the prophets and then post that.
thats the world for you.
As far as I know, there is nothing in my post that is not true.
The only people who might find it harsh are those who believe that god comes down to earth as human, crying and suckling from the breasts of a virgin, regularly went to the loo doing #1 and #2, and died. You are not one of them, are you?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
everybodies the same, say one thing..do another.
or is it justified to stoop to someone elses level?
Also, since you are good in not stooping to someone elses level, can you please for a change provide what you think is the correct response and provide refutations to their false accusations of Allah SWT, Muhammad SAW and Jesus (as)?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
do not feed the trolls.
So what do you suggest we do with trolls like legal_alien? ban him?
Also, I find it VERY interesting that you NEVER speak up whenever non-muslims plastered false accusations against what we believe in, but when one of your brothers spoke the truth against them, you couldn't wait to get your indignants and sarcasm published.
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-06-2011, 08:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So you don't believe in God?

Or Do christians only believe in God if they can see Him and if He goes to the toilet doing #1 and #2 and suckled from the breasts of a virgin and dies?
Yes, I agree; may Allah (Allah of Mohammed) have mercy on you all and keep you on the right path if he really exists.
I believe in God (or Allah, if you prefer) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; in the God, Allah of our Lord Jesus Christ; NOT in God (Allah) of Mohammed, NOT in Allah whom Mohammed proclaimed. This is NOT Allah of the (Old Testamental) Israelites (I know don’t agree with this, but this is to clarify you my believe). Please read my posts with attention.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-06-2011, 08:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
I believe in God (or Allah, if you prefer) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; in the God, Allah of our Lord Jesus Christ; NOT in God (Allah) of Mohammed, NOT in Allah whom Mohammed proclaimed. This is NOT Allah of the (Old Testamental) Israelites (I know don’t agree with this, but this is to clarify you my believe). Please read my posts with attention.
Well, then the God you believe in and worship is different from Allah (God) that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus, Muhammad (pbut) believed in.
Here's God that all those prophets (pbut) believed in:

Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.


Certainly, prophets Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus and Muhammad (SAW) did not believe in the fictional pagan god that came down to earth, crying and suckling on the breasts of a virgin, relieved himself in the loo doing #1 and #2, asking for help when he was about the be tortured, and died.

Now tell me, since you believe Jesus (pbuh) was god and Mary (pbuh) as the mother of god, does this make the excrement and urine of Jesus (pbuh) holy and something that you christians worship?
Because if he were God, then all parts of him were also god, no?
Reply

Daniel Hoseiny
10-06-2011, 09:16 AM
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15):smile:
Reply

Ramadhan
10-06-2011, 09:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Legal_alien
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15)
Yes, Jesus (pbuh) in this verse spoke about christians for they are blind leaders of the blind.
Christians like you and amigo in this thread alone have proclaimed that you follow your priests and church leaders, and your priests and church leaders are blind, so you shall fall into the ditch.
:)

So, open your eyes, and start believe in Allah that prophets Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus and Muhammad (SAW) worship.
Stop worshiping a human, do not follow the ways of the devil.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-06-2011, 03:24 PM
every child needs its mother, its not what you said its the way you said it.
it shows the highest disrespect towards that prophet pbuh.. and if anybody converts due to your answer.. well then your god and my god are not the same.

if every man, women and child on earth said they were muslim using your answers and point of view for refutation, then i would declare i am not a muslim.

if you cant see anything wrong with your answer then you are the most stupid of people and another reason why this world is lost to me, but there is one, and i know that you have been given more success than me.. so i conclude that allah swt is with you not me.

what can you do with legal_alien?
there is no want to change as he thinks his religion perfect as you consider yours perfect.
it is like a people constantly fighting and gaining no ground. every step forward you take is forgotten by tomorrow and it starts all over again.

if i blame anybody i blame god, your god and his god.. whatever you claim them to be.
and also my god.

false accusations are exactly that, you know them not to be true if not in your minds then in your hearts, if not in your hearts then your souls know how you have wronged yourselves for the sake a small victory.
..and in victory you can call for conversion right? that is the proof that you live by.

you are of those that would break a persons will and then say worship my god, what sincerity and understanding is there in that? but i guess that is what god requires, it bears no similarity to my god.

i would walk away from anybody that said bad words about any prophet pbut.. but then you would fail to understand why they said it in the first place.
nobody will come to you and say, hi im a christian and i love muhammed

but if by the time they walk away from you they can say that then i guess you have served your purpose..
but if they walk away saying love and spewing hate, then that is the path you have lead them to.

there will be people against you weather im there or not, but i was caned as a child to correct my mistakes.. so im returning the favor.

i would like to see you better than me,
and most of the time i think you already are.. the constant doubt is that your way IS the correct way and i am wrong.
my dad always tells me, they cant all be wrong..
usually after yet another spectacular fail on my part.

so yeah maybe im still caned.

disregard all iv said. i genuinely cant wait to get out of this place.

irl my research was never published, it went against the syllabus..
directed learning and research are not the same thing btw.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-06-2011, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
it shows the highest disrespect towards that prophet pbuh.. and if anybody converts due to your answer.. well then your god and my god are not the same.
I believe that Allah created everything.

Apparently you don't believe in Allah as God, as in another thread about Sai Baba you saw nothing wrong with Sai Baba claiming he was God. Or should I remind you about that thread?
NO MUSLIM would ever say that Sai Baba was correct when he was claiming he was God. A christian might, as christians also claim that a middle eastern man born 2,000 years ago is god.

Also, where did I disrespect which prophet?
Please show me?
You cannot even write his name.

You see nothing wrong with christians actually debasing god, while getting all riled up when I pointed out at what christians actually believe in. How interesting.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
you are of those that would break a persons will and then say worship my god, what sincerity and understanding is there in that? but i guess that is what god requires, it bears no similarity to my god.
I have been waiting for you to give sincerity and understanding to the non-muslims that come here, but instead you keep picking up fight with your fellow brother in Islam. I am still considering you as my brother in Islam, but judging by your sentence above where you implicitly claim that your god is not Allah, apparently you don't already.
you need to practice what you preach, brother.

At least I am not pretending I am all about peace and love and lets hold hands and sing kumbaya.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
false accusations are exactly that, you know them not to be true if not in your minds then in your hearts, if not in your hearts then your souls know how you have wronged yourselves for the sake a small victory.
..and in victory you can call for conversion right? that is the proof that you live by.
And by being silent and not explaining them the truth will make them revert?
I have a canadian ex work colleague here in Jakarta who was a christian and reverted to Islam alhamdulillah after we spent few months debating and discussing religions and faith and christianity and Islam.
That is the proof I live by.
What is your proof?
You seem very sure that your way (ie. silence) is the only way to make non-muslims revert to Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i would walk away from anybody that said bad words about any prophet pbut.. but then you would fail to understand why they said it in the first place. nobody will come to you and say, hi im a christian and i love muhammed
Nobody expects christians to claim they love Muhammad (SAW), I don't expect you do too.
But I am standing up when people plastered false accusation against my religion.
You would walk away when you hear anyone saying bad words about any prophets (pbut), but couldn't hold yourself from saying bad words against muslims?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
but if by the time they walk away from you they can say that then i guess you have served your purpose..
but if they walk away saying love and spewing hate, then that is the path you have lead them to.
And you have converted how many christians to Islam?
Are you actually new to this forum or what?
Do you think I am giving the same response to all christians?

Have a browse through my posts here, and you'll be able to see how I respond differently to non-muslims who are here if they are genuinely interested in Islam, and what response that I give to those who are here to peddle their religions or to troll.
But of course you would refuse to acknowledge that I made numerous posts explaining Islam with kindness and in gentle manner to those who are genuine.

You would walk away when christians blaspheme Allah SWT and the prophets, but you couldn't stop yourself attacking your own brother in Islam for defending the prophets (pbut)?

I respect your decision to walk away, but you cannot respect my right to engage and defend my belief?

I have yet to see from you explaining anything or clarifying misconceptions about Islam that non-muslims put forth in this forum.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
if you cant see anything wrong with your answer then you are the most stupid of people and another reason why this world is lost to me, but there is one, and i know that you have been given more success than me.. so i conclude that allah swt is with you not me.
I am actually glad you call me stupid.
May Allah be witness of this during the judgement day.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
disregard all iv said. i genuinely cant wait to get out of this place.
Don't worry, I disregarded everything you said already.
All the best to you in your next endeavor.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-07-2011, 12:17 AM
no more endeavors, i give up lol

i converted none at all so mine is definitely not the way. full stop.


i went to a mosque for friday prayer,
the imam told a story of a believing man who lost his camel in the desert. he camped down for the night and when he awoke it was gone.. he was hopeless and asked of god why this could have happened.
he lost everything he had and all provisions for his journey.

when he finally regained his senses..and probably after a nap. he found his camel after searching.
at this point he declared he was god and it was allah that served him.

allah forgave that man.

that was the imams story,

i think a little part of me gave up my belief that day.. that story did not agree with my interpretation of the quran and it did not bear resemblance to my understanding of god.

allah is witness to all things.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-07-2011, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i went to a mosque for friday prayer,
the imam told a story of a believing man who lost his camel in the desert. he camped down for the night and when he awoke it was gone.. he was hopeless and asked of god why this could have happened.
he lost everything he had and all provisions for his journey.

when he finally regained his senses..and probably after a nap. he found his camel after searching.
at this point he declared he was god and it was allah that served him.

allah forgave that man.

that was the imams story,
I am quite familiar with that hadith. It's either the imam did not recount the full story (and omitted few crucial details) and the wisdom behind that story or you were not paying too close attention when the imam was giving his khutbah.

In fact, if you search my posts. I have used that narration at least a couple of times in this forum when a member asked about Allah forgiveness.That story was narrated to show how pleased Allah when his slave repents.

Here's the hadith:

Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6610:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying : Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said: I live in the thought of My servant and I am with him as he remembers Me. (The Holy Prophet) further said: By Allah, Allah is more pleased wth the repentance of His servant than what one of you would do on finding the lost camel in the waterless desert. When he draws near Me by the span of his hand. I draw near him by the length of a cubit and when he draws near Me by the length of a cubit. I draw near him by the length of a fathom and when he draws near Me walking I draw close to him hurriedly.

Book 37, Number 6618:
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah is more pleased with the repentance of a servant as he turns towards Him for repentance than this that one amongst you is upon the camel in a waterless desert and there is upon (that camel) his provision of food and drink also and it is lost by him, and he having lost all hope (to get tbat) lies down in the shadow and is disappointed about his camel and there he finds that camel standing before him. He takes hold of his nosestring and then out of boundless joy says: 0 Lord, Thou art my servant and I am Thine Lord. He commits this mistake out of extreme delight.

That man was SOOO happy that he found his camel complete with all the provision intact, and his tongue slipped out of sheer delight, instead of saying "You are my Lord, and I am your servant" as he had intended, he said the opposite". This story was narrated in vividly so we all can feel the extreme happiness of that man, and Allah SWT is MORE pleased than what that man felt whenever any of his slave repent and return to Him SWT.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i think a little part of me gave up my belief that day.. that story did not agree with my interpretation of the quran and it did not bear resemblance to my understanding of god.
That man who lost his camel did NOT lose his belief.
Or are you saying you were in sheer delight of joy when you agree that Sai Baba was God and that was just a slip of your tongue (or your hand since it was in writing)?

And that was not the only time.
Around two years ago you also mentioned that Qur'an taught trinity.
There are others also where you said things completely against qur'an and sunnah.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-07-2011, 02:42 AM
I still can't figure out why you are so upset that you called me the most stupid person when I said Christians believe in God who came down to earth as a helpless baby, crying and suckling from the breasts of a virgin, went to the loo to relieve himself and cried for help when about to be crucified, and died?

Can you please tell me is that not the god that christians worship?

Let me remind you of a story of prophet Ibrahim (as) as narrated by Allah SWT in the Qur'an:

The people of Ibrahim (as) were so entrenched in their belief of worshiping idols and only followed the religion of their forefathers that they couldn't even think for themselves why their idols couldn't have been god. So in order to put sense into these people, Ibrahim (as) destroyed all statues and idols but one (the biggeest idol) and put the hammer that he used to destroy other idols on the biggest statue. The next day, when Ibrahim (as) was arrested he said that the biggest statue was the one who destroyed the others, the people didn't believe him because it was not logical at all.

Now, the same thing with christians. Christians (early scribes who made changes into gospels and claimed they are from God) invented flowery, complicated language to mask the truth and current christians are only parroting their priests/pastors/etc and predecessors without stopping for one second to think for themselves. Those who think and realize the ridiculousness of mangod and trinity and read bible with more attention either became atheists, agnostics or reverted to Islam (if they also read the Qur'an).

Maybe just like the people of Ibrahim (as), christians do not mind to worship God who humiliated himself and got humiliated by human (losing a wrestling match with Jacob as and impaled on a cross), but hopefully some of them will realize the impossibility and ridiculousness of God that did all of those.

Anyway, even if I said that (which I did not) prophet Jesus (pbuh) was born as a helpless baby, suckling from the breasts of a virgin, etc etc. why would it have demeaned him (pbuh)?
He is human, even if he is among the most noble, and all humans do things things, unless you think otherwise.
If you are not familiar, in the ahadeeth, there are also accounts of prophet Muhammad SAW went to the loo, doing istinja' and taharah. It shows he is human and he set best examples and guidance in every aspect of human life.

You know what is demeaning?
bible, that is.
It contains story such as god losing wrestling match to a human, a prophet (pbuh) had sex with his own daughters and had babies who were also his grandchildren astgahfirullah. not to mention enough erotic stories to make a harlot from babylon blush.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-07-2011, 10:44 AM
to you an idol is a graven image that is claimed to represent god.

to me it is a tablet with the graven image of a calf, i held it between my fingers and thought for a moment.

what use are idols?

another part of me gave up my religion that day.

and in the space of a day, everything that i had thought was written for me was taken away.

i gave up my career.

people lead and people follow its that simple. all credit to sai baba.. finding provision is a hard thing to do.

i look at people like zakir naik and think that they are the path to heaven really.. there is no arguing with that guy, he knows everything.

much like yourself.

like i said, i quit.. i just need the resolve to actually keep walking away.

the whole place is just so fake.

the quran says that fighting is prescribed for you, unfortunately neither am i capable or willing anymore.

if i have blasphemed i guess it has been made apparent by my situation.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-07-2011, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
to you an idol is a graven image that is claimed to represent god.
When did I ever say idol is a graven image that is claimed to represent god?

I might have said the reverse: that a graven image that is claimed to represent god IS an idol.

You might have not known the difference, as you consider me the most stupid person,

Please don't be like christians: put words in someone's mouth, and in the christians case, they put words into prophet Jesus (as) mouth so to speak.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
to me it is a tablet with the graven image of a calf, i held it between my fingers and thought for a moment.
Christians also think that idols are calf, not the images and statues and likenesses of dead or alive people that they worship.
But we know in the Qur'an the people of Ibrahim (as) also worshiped idols, and all the throughout history many nations as well (which are narrated in the Qur'an and ahadeeth), and then the quraish had 360 idols of all kinds of their gods placed inside ka'bah that prophet Muhammad SAW commanded to be destroyed.
You might not have liked living during prophet Muhammad SAW as you idol would have gotten destroyed.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
what use are idols?
Only idols worshiper can answer it. So ask some christians.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
another part of me gave up my religion that day.
What religion was it?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
people lead and people follow its that simple. all credit to sai baba.. finding provision is a hard thing to do.
Astaghfirullah.
All praise to Allah SWT and all provisions is from Him alone.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i look at people like zakir naik and think that they are the path to heaven really
zakir naik claimed he is the path to heaven?
Proof please.
All muslims must believe that following Qur'an and sunnah is the path to jannah and I have NEVER heard zakir naik claimed he is the path to heaven, because otherwise that would have made him a musryk.
May Allah be witness to this during Judgement day.

You get upset easily when muslims pointing out at the errors of christians and yet you are plastering lies left and right against muslims. How pathetic.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
much like yourself.
When did I ever say I am the path to heaven?

Please keep continuing your lies against me.
May Allah be witness to this during Judgement day.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
like i said, i quit.. i just need the resolve to actually keep walking away.
riiiight.
Didn't I just hear something like not long ago?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the whole place is just so fake.
does this mean you are fake?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the quran says that fighting is prescribed for you, unfortunately neither am i capable or willing anymore.
Qur'an verse please.
And don't be so dramatic, you seem to be enjoying this.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
if i have blasphemed i guess it has been made apparent by my situation.
You keep saying things you claimed from the Qur'an which are proven false.
Reply

Abz2000
10-08-2011, 02:10 AM
acually M.I.A it is Allah (swt) who mentions the human qualities of Jesus (pbuh) as arguments for us to reflect on:

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger;
many were the messengers that passed away before him.
His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.
See how God makes His signs clear to them;
yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"
(5:75).


It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son.
Glory be to Him!
When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is"
(19:30-35).

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!
58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.
59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.
61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
(43:57-61)

Say: "If The Most Gracious had a son, I would be the first to worship."
82. Glory to the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of the Throne (of Authority)! (He is free) from the things they attribute (to him)!
Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "(Allah) hath begotten a son":No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them in grief, if they believe not in this.
Quran 18:4-6

They say: "The Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
91. That they should invoke a son for The Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.
Quran 19

The Messiah will never be proud to reject to be a slave to Allaah, nor the angels who are near.
And whosoever rejects His worship and is arrogant, then He will gather them all together unto Himself.
(An-Nisa 4:172)


Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted?
and I will not give my glory unto another.
Isaiah 48:10-11


My question to illegal alien is:
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS (PBUH) WAS A SERVANT OF GOD?
OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HE (PBUH) WAS GOD WHO CAME DOWN (ASTAGHFIRULLAH) AS HIS OWN SERVANT?
OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HE (PBUH) WAS AN UNEQUAL DEMI-GOD?
(GOD FORGIVE THEM - FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY SAY)
Reply

Ramadhan
10-08-2011, 03:51 AM
After some unnecessary detour, let's go back on topic.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Deuteronomy 4:2
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Some Christians see the Qur'an as an attempt to add to the Word of God.
Now, how could christians see that Qur'an is an attempt to add to the Word of God?

Let's scrutinize that verse in its own right, carefully and with critical eyes:

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it

So God forbis us humans to add or subtract to what He has commanded, but God did not forbid himself to add or subtract his commands for humans.

Now muslims believe that Qur'an is 100% literal word of God, so this means Deuteronomy 4:2 doe snot apply to Qur'an.
Meanwhile, even christians in this forum (Pastor Grace seeker and Amigo among others) have explicitly said that bible is not word of god. And we know that half of new testament was written by a human named saul of tarsus, and many of old testament were authored by scribes/rabbis/parishs who were not prophets, and they added and subtracted to the commands of God. For example, while Jesus (pbuh) said (in accordance to Deuteronomy 4:2):

Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)

But of course, instead of actually reading the verses and the commands as they are and obey them, christians would do series of mental, verbal acrobatic and create lengthy convoluted flowery words to try to convince themselves that most commands of God do not apply to them anymore, and they are free to choose which commands they believe in and which ones to follow.

As we can see now, Islam is the only religion that guards the purity of God's commands, and attempts to change otherwise have always been thwarted. The strongest absolute evidence: The 100% preservation of Qur'an.
On the other hand, is there even any christian on the face of the earth that can confidently say that they are following actual 100% teachings of Jesus (pbuh)?

So the deuteronomy 4:2 verse is actually ****ing against christianity and bible and actually supports that Islam is the truth, as muslims do not add and subtract to the Word of God and muslims keep the commands of God (SWT).


Reply

Predator
10-08-2011, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Let's scrutinize that verse in its own right, carefully and with critical eyes:

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it

So God forbis us humans to add or subtract to what He has commanded, but God did not forbid himself to add or subtract his commands for humans.


And Also the below verse
"...If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)

But who cares! They do not really believe! The protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God!

The outcasts are:

The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Book of Esther
Wisdom of solomon
Maccabees 1
Maccabees 2

Reply

Amigo
10-08-2011, 08:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
And Also the below verse
"...If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
What 'Book' do you suppose this verse is referring to? :)
Reply

Predator
10-08-2011, 09:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
What 'Book' do you suppose this verse is referring to? :)
Stupid question. This verse refers to the bible.
Reply

Amigo
10-08-2011, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Stupid question. This verse refers to the bible.
you need a bible study from a good teacher.
Reply

Predator
10-08-2011, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
you need a bible study from a good teacher.
With the amount of contradictions, scientific absurdities, jokes and pornography in it , its actually you that needs a reality check and a proper bible study
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Darth Ultor
10-08-2011, 12:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
And Also the below verse
"...If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)

But who cares! They do not really believe! The protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God!

The outcasts are:

The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Book of Esther
Wisdom of solomon
Maccabees 1
Maccabees 2

Hang on, I have a bible at home. It has all these books. But what I do know some protestant bibles don't acknowledge is James.

James 2:14...
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:15-17...
If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:18-19...
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!

James 2:20-21...
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

And many other verses that say that it is your actions that will count for or against you, not just your faith.


Reply

Ramadhan
10-08-2011, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
What 'Book' do you suppose this verse is referring to?
Have you not read your own bible?
Or do you always need your priest to read bible for you?
Have you never read about the history of how bible became what they are now?
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Ramadhan
10-08-2011, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
you need a bible study from a good teacher.
You need to switch teacher as apparently your current teacher is not good enough, as evidenced by your severe lack of basic knowledge about bible.
Reply

Predator
10-08-2011, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Hang on, I have a bible at home. It has all these books. But what I do know some protestant bibles don't acknowledge is James.
The protestant version doesnt not have those 7 books. saying they are "doubtful". Catholic version has them and This is just the tip of the ice berg , chunks and chunks are added or thrown out elsewhere
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Ramadhan
10-08-2011, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Hang on, I have a bible at home. It has all these books.
Nuh uh.
Protestant bibles do not have those books. You must have either catholic bibles, or eastern orthodox bibles, or ethiopian orthodox bibles or any other bibles but protestant ones.
Reply

Darth Ultor
10-08-2011, 01:21 PM
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
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Ramadhan
10-08-2011, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
Yes, scriptures have been modified all the time, except for the Qur'an.

And hence Deuteronomy 4:2 supports Qur'an and d amns Bible.
Reply

Darth Ultor
10-08-2011, 07:03 PM
The Quran cannot be modified but it can be taught out of its true context by Islamophobes and Muslims alike. But luckily, Muslims can explain what certain verses mean to clear up misconceptions such as in Q. 5:51.
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Amigo
10-08-2011, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
Yes. That's the nature of any scripture. It is always interpreted either by an official body or independantely, but a book does not say anything by itself. "You can't put it in a court's witness box and asks it what it means" (Chesterton), it wouldn't even hear you.

The 'people in charge' are the key to understanding what any scripture is saying.
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FS123
10-08-2011, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i remember it as: if you believe then long for death
I think you are talking about the following verse in Quran:
"Say: 'If the Last Abode near Allah is for you purely, short of all people, then make a wish for death, if you are true." But they will never wish for it because of what their hands have sent ahead. And Allah is all-aware of the unjust." (2:94-95)
It is to the Jews (and maybe Christians) who were claiming that God loves them and they won't go to hell. Here God puts them to a challenge to show if they are really truthful about themselves. Next it goes on to say that they will never wish death because of what their hands forwarded (done). Then the Aya reiterates that GOD knows well about the people that misplace right and wrong.

This Aya is an invitation into doing things right and not transgressing against GOD.

Tafsir is here which will give you better idea:
Allah reminded the Jews of their errors, breaking His covenant, transgression and defiance, when He raised Mount Tur above them so that they would believe and agree to the terms of the covenant. Yet, they broke it soon afterwards, Allah's statement, (Say: "Worst indeed is that which your faith enjoins on you if you are believers.'') means, "Worse yet is the manner in which you behaved in the past and even now, disbelieving in Allah's Ayat and defying the Prophets. You also disbelieved in Muhammad , which is the worst of your deeds and the harshest sin that you committed. You disbelieved in the Final Messenger and the master of all Prophets and Messengers, the one who was sent to all mankind. How can you then claim that you believe, while committing the evil of breaking Allah's covenant, disbelieving in Allah's Ayat and worshipping the calf instead of Allah" (94. Say to (them): "If the abode of the Hereafter with Allah is indeed for you especially and not for others of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.'') (95. But they will never long for it because of what their hands have sent before them (i.e. what they have done). And Allah is Aware of the Zalimin .) (96. And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allah. One of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is Seer of what they do.)
Here is more detailed explanation: http://www.answering-christianity.co...ation_test.htm

Just to make it clear above verse doesn't mean all Jews, it has a context.
Reply

Darth Ultor
10-08-2011, 11:04 PM
What about Sura 9:30/31? I was never taught that Ezra was the son of God or the priests were His equals. You can't be Jewish and think that God has children or equals. We call God "Father" maybe as a testament to His mercy, but not literally a father.
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FS123
10-08-2011, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
What about Sura 9:30/31? I was never taught that Ezra was the son of God or the priests were His equals. You can't be Jewish and think that God has children or equals. We call God "Father" maybe as a testament to His mercy, but not literally a father.
That was one of the belief of Jews of Madina. You have to look at the context and history behind the revelation. That verse was directed at specific people at that time but it has wider meaning too. Wider meaning is there is no partner with God, and God doesn't accept that at all.

Detailed answer is here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...rnal/ezra.html
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Ramadhan
10-09-2011, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Yes. That's the nature of any scripture. It is always interpreted either by an official body or independantely, but a book does not say anything by itself. "You can't put it in a court's witness box and asks it what it means" (Chesterton), it wouldn't even hear you.
Misinterpretation maybe the nature of bible, but apart from that, which you tried to deflect, is the fact that bible is a product of many unknown authors, each added, removed, edited, corrupted the word of God.

Compare that to Al Qur'an which is pure word of God (swt).
Reply

Ramadhan
10-09-2011, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
. You can't be Jewish and think that God has children or equals
Oh really?
I know many jews who think money, science and technology are at least equal to, and more important than God.

Also, how do you know that the jews during Ezra time didn't regard Ezra as equal to son of God?
After all, it was Ezra who edited most of hebrew bible, creating, adding, removind, editing books of moses and sulaiman (pbut) so they became what old testament. He even contributed his own book.
Also, if you had not known, some jews (such as saul of tarsus) also regarded Jesus (pbuh) as son of God.
During Moses (pbuh), the jews even worshipped a golden calf. Were they not jews? Those jews knew they were saved from the pharaoh/firaun by God, they saw the miracle of Moses (pbuh) who parted the sea, and they were under supervision of Aaron (pbuh) when Moses (pbuh) was away, and yet they took a golden calf and worshipped it!!

Face it, the jews throughout history have made actions that breached God's commands and angered Him and hence many prophets were sent to them to repeatedly remind them. But continued to transgress (and rejecting the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad pbut), and they are still transgressing. Case in point: the state of Israel. I am not saying that all jews are bad, I am only pointing out at your absurdities that claimed no jew would take anything else as equal to God.
Reply

Predator
10-09-2011, 01:59 PM
I am only pointing out at your absurdities that claimed no jew would take anything else as equal to God.
In the satanic talmud , it is even mentioned that these "smart" rabbis are even better than God

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

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Darth Ultor
10-09-2011, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
Like I said earlier
Reply

Amigo
10-09-2011, 06:08 PM
..................
Reply

Ramadhan
10-10-2011, 01:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Like I said earlier
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
Well you are wrong.
Al Qur'an has never been modified.

And muslims don't even call/treat/regard translations or tafseer of Al Qur'an as Al Qur'an.
And Al Qur'an is the only scripture that has never been modified, so shouldn't you now follow the unchanged word of god as God commands in Deuteronomy 4:2?
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Darth Ultor
10-10-2011, 01:42 AM
Not if I don't believe that it's the authentic word of God.
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Ramadhan
10-10-2011, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Not if I don't believe that it's the authentic word of God.
Can you tell us your reasons why you don't think Al Qur'an is the authentic word of God?

Also, your scripture commands not to follow scriptures which have been changed/modified, and you yourself acknowledge that your scripture has been modified, so why are you still following it?

A case of cognitive dissonance or doublethink?
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Darth Ultor
10-10-2011, 03:40 AM
I do not follow it, now that you ask. I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist. As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic. Scriptures I see as not even guides but suggestions of how to lead a good life in the service of God.
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Ramadhan
10-10-2011, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
I do not follow it, now that you ask. I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist
So basically you are an agnostic?

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic
It's true that every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic.
Now to determine which one is authentic and which are not, there have been tests, examinations of evidence against their claim, no?

And so far the only scripture that passed those tests and examinations is Al qur'an.
The followers of other scriptures normally meekly resorted to "it's all a mystery slash faith".

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Scriptures I see as not even guides but suggestions of how to lead a good life in the service of God.
So you don't think all scriptures are from God, but they are merely creation of men?
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Darth Ultor
10-10-2011, 04:04 AM
No, agnostics don't believe in God. Theists by definition do.
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Ali_008
10-10-2011, 04:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic.
The Noble Qur'an has not been altered in anyway whatsoever till date and is in its original form since its inception way back in the 7th century (A.D.). Agreed by both Muslims and Non-Musllims.

Scriptures of other religions have gone through corruptions. In some cases, the actual birth of the scripture is unknown. The Bible has had modifications and the proof of that is its multiple versions. Agreed by both Muslims and Non-Muslims.
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Ramadhan
10-10-2011, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
No, agnostics don't believe in God. Theists by definition do.
OK so you are a theist.

Do you believe that God sent messengers?

You have not answered this other question of mine:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So you don't think all scriptures are from God, but they are merely creation of men?
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Darth Ultor
10-10-2011, 04:34 AM
Messenger I am not sure of. Maybe they were just righteous men. And yes, I do think scriptures are the creation of men. Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
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Ramadhan
10-10-2011, 04:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Messenger I am not sure of. Maybe they were just righteous men
But what are righteous men?
who judged those who are righteous?
and how do we know they are righteous?
what kind of criteria that makes those righterious?
and who/where those criteria came from and who created the criteria for righteousness?

You are not sure about messengers.
What about Noah, Abaraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammad (pbut) who all claimed to be messengers from God, do you not believe their claim then?

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
And yes, I do think scriptures are the creation of men.
Ok.
So when it says in the scripture, "I am God, this book is from me", does this mean you think all those messengers and prophets were lying?
You said earlier they were righteous, but you also believe they lied.
So is lying a righteous quality in your book?
How did you come to conclusion that lies is among righteousness qualities/characters?

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
Confucius may or may not have been a descendent of Abraham and he may or may not have been a messenger of God , but here's what Allah in the Qur'an tells us:
And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'ân 16:36)

And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad(P)); of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (Qur'ân 40:78)

Only arrogant jews who think messengers of God are only sent to them and among them. And even when one is sent to them, they rejected them, sucvh as prophet Jesus (pbuh), and when the last messenger (pbuh) sent was an arab, they also rejected him.

Reply

FS123
10-10-2011, 08:58 PM
maybe offtopic to the OP but the discussions have generated here, it is very informative interview:
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2011, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
Anyone can propagate lofty, inspiring thought, even bad people... it's a hypocritical assessment of someone to beleive them to be good just because they talked a "good" game.

It's the actions of people which should be held accountable.


format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist.
Confucius propagated "ancestor worship" - bleh, and you plug this man, here? It makes no sense. Boaz, you have to bring examples that hold weight in light of "theist" religious enquiry, else, you make a weak, muted point.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Confucius may or may not have been a descendent of Abraham and he may or may not have been a messenger of God...
He wasn't a messenger of God. He propagated ungodly worship.
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Iconodule
10-13-2011, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
He wasn't a messenger of God. He propagated ungodly worship.
Why would you say that? I think Confucius did the best a man could using human reason in the absence of God's direct revelation. I wouldn't call him a messenger of God but he was certainly an upright man whose teachings were moral and beneficial.
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Scimitar
10-14-2011, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
But what are righteous men?
who judged those who are righteous?
and how do we know they are righteous?
what kind of criteria that makes those righterious?
and who/where those criteria came from and who created the criteria for righteousness?
Kinda makes you think don't it?

Let's define it then. "righteousness" : It is an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified, and can have the connotation that the person has been "judged" or "reckoned" as leading a life that is pleasing to God.

Iconodude:
If I asked you to eat toast and then ate poo myself, wouldn't that seem totally stupid? Righteousness is living by Gods' law. And Confucius didn't adhere to that, he worshipped his ancestors... So the analogy stands. Like I said before, anyone can talk a big game, but to walk it according to Gods' law is something else.

These times we are living in, people are ready to accept other religions as the truth alongside their own chosen faith, this doesn't show faith - it shows a shameful compromise.

I'm a thiest, I believe in ONE GOD. And the thought of worshipping ancestors is just as ridiculous to me as worshipping manufactured idols, or eating poo when the rest of world is eating toast...

Calling Confucius "Righteous" is too big a compliment for him. He had some sound ideas, yes - but they weren't his. They were adopted by him. Where did these ideas of his come from? Ever care to think about that? Let me make it easy for you - they came from God, through divine revelation, to prophets and messengers of God. Some of these teachings reached China along the oldest trade route known to man - the Silk Road. The Silk Road spanned from China in the east all the way up to the middle east, some 2000 miles. And guess what? The middle east is the land where most prophets of God walked. Including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammad to name but a handful... (May Allah grant HIS mercy, peace and blessings on them all).

That is all.
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Iconodule
10-15-2011, 03:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Calling Confucius "Righteous" is too big a compliment for him. He had some sound ideas, yes - but they weren't his. They were adopted by him. Where did these ideas of his come from? Ever care to think about that? Let me make it easy for you - they came from God, through divine revelation, to prophets and messengers of God. Some of these teachings reached China along the oldest trade route known to man - the Silk Road. The Silk Road spanned from China in the east all the way up to the middle east, some 2000 miles. And guess what? The middle east is the land where most prophets of God walked. Including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammad to name but a handful... (May Allah grant HIS mercy, peace and blessings on them all).
Confucius did not have access to the faith revealed to Abraham, Moses, David, etc. He did, however, have his conscience and his reason, both of which are gifts of God of course, and he used them very well in a land rife with many wrong superstitions. Obviously not everything Confucius believed or taught was correct but again he was a righteous man who did his best with what little he could, and there was much good in his teaching despite the idolatrous culture in which he lived. Of course all truth and goodness is from God. Many people will block this truth within themselves. So when someone earnestly seeks truth, and I believe Confucius did this, then we can recognize a spark of God's wisdom in his teaching.
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Neha Qadri
08-03-2016, 06:57 PM
Islam is only True Religion and Mohammed was the messanger of GOD(Allah)
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