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SafaAuditore
09-28-2011, 11:50 AM
Hey, me n my stupid questions again lol =)

OK this has been bothering me foreaaalll... ppl be talking about how islam is crazy and abusive to it's women and i'm always sticking up for us, u know saying i wear the hijab cause i WANT to, which is true, and i dress modest cause i WANT to, also true. all that. but they end up goin around that and to the topic of stoning. and honestly......idk what to say!
it's disgusting, and it's immoral! +o(
is it really part of islam???????????? =/

Someone please help me lol im like feeling so sick watching stoning stuff and seeing how WRONG they are!

If u save one person it's as if u have saved all of mankind, and if u kill one person it's as if u have killed all of mankind unless it is a woman and she is said to have done something wrong than u can mercilessly bury her chest deep in the ground and toss medium sized rocks at her for the deliberate slow and torturous death :raging: -- really? hadith mix up? something?
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MSalman
09-28-2011, 02:07 PM
^Yes, stonning is part of Islam. And no law of Allah is immoral or disgusting. If you are a Muslim then please focus on learning and practicing your obligations instead of worrying about what people are saying about Islam and what not.
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Aprender
09-28-2011, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by MSalman
^Yes, stonning is part of Islam. And no law of Allah is immoral or disgusting. If you are a Muslim then please focus on learning and practicing your obligations instead of worrying about what people are saying about Islam and what not.
I don't think that's helpful to the sister though. If people are saying something bad about Islam how can you tell her not to worry about it when she is coming to us for help to defend the religion and clear misconceptions?

Now sister, I wish I could help you but I've only been a Muslim for merely months now and I don't know much about hadith. Yes, stoning is apart of Islam but not in the barbaric and unjust way that non-Muslims like to say that it is. Someone please come to this thread and help this sister out with a thorough explanation.
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SFatima
09-28-2011, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Hey, me n my stupid questions again lol =)

OK this has been bothering me foreaaalll... ppl be talking about how islam is crazy and abusive to it's women and i'm always sticking up for us, u know saying i wear the hijab cause i WANT to, which is true, and i dress modest cause i WANT to, also true. all that. but they end up goin around that and to the topic of stoning. and honestly......idk what to say!

Someone please help me lol im like feeling so sick watching stoning stuff and seeing how WRONG they are!

If u save one person it's as if u have saved all of mankind, and if u kill one person it's as if u have killed all of mankind unless it is a woman and she is said to have done something wrong than u can mercilessly bury her chest deep in the ground and toss medium sized rocks at her for the deliberate slow and torturous death -- really? hadith mix up? something?
:sl:
Sister there are verses about stoning, and I gather your knowledge about Islam , like all of us, needs to broaden, but before that happens, refrain from using words with negative connotations for something which is a command from Allah swt, and seek forgiveness immediately, before you proceed to learn more. You do know that to learn something of knowledge requires an un biased approach, and that means totally un biased, when we accept the message of Islam as the true word of Allah swt.

I'm sure somebody more learned will share the verse and the hadiths about it with you, being humans it is not us who decide the basis of justice, only Allah knows what goes inside the hearts of people who commit acts which have been penalized by the penalty of being stonned to death, a penalty which was practised in all Abrahamic faiths, Christianity and judaism, the verses about them are still there in those books, so for starters it wasnt an only Islamic practise, it was being practised well Before Islam.

Secondly, The concept of punishment is not ' humiliation & mortification' in Islam, but infact quite the opposite, which is, to purify people of their sins so that Allah swt may forgive them in this world and the hereafter for the crime or sin that they commit. Along with maintaining a strong sense of moral scope, which would guide the human social behavior towards harmony and not shameless chaotic lewd decadence, which is so prevalent today that these penalties are not in practise. The practise of stonning was not carried out a lot since the crimes which fetch these punishments required confessions and witnesses. So unless a person admitted to it, you couldn't stone him/her, esp in the case of adultery. There are a few other offenses too which follow stoning.

When there was a companion of the prophet who committed adultery, he felt really guilty and confessed his it to the Prophet and presented himself for the penalty, he was convicted, with the words of high praise by the Prophet for his courage to come out forward with his sin, since people commit sins and hide them. Some people spoke of that companion in not so good words and the Prophet forbade them to, saying that his tauba was bigger than the tauba (repentance)of all the city combined, and let no one speak ill of him since he has been purified of all his sins and his tauba has been accepted.

The women who had committed adultery with this companion was of a well placed family and she refused to accept her sin and lied in front of the Prophet and everybody saying that she didnt do it, hence she was spared of the penalty, but could she be spared of the penalty of the akhira, ? dont think so easily.

There is another opinion on this too, in which scholars say that one must seek forgiveness from ALlah swt for all the sins that we commit, since the penalty of stonning is not implemented anywhere in the world in this instance that I know of, not sure about Saudia. And adultery and fornication are ever on the rise in the society, unless a person goes through a cheating spouse, you dont know what they go through, and the sin isnt only of cheating, it is of committing a great sin in the eyes of Allah swt. Anyhow, I think we all can see the rise in immoral activities, pedophilia and incest all over the world, and again, if you dont know how the victims cope with being abused/raped like this, you really arent thinking from a position of compassion.

Think over it keeping in mind the reality around you and you will be sickened with whats happening, rather than feeling strange about what ALlah swt commanded about how to preserve the moral integrity of the society.

Just google the rape and abuse statistics of US alone and you'll be surprised to know that a woman is reported to be raped every minute in US, could it get more worse, I hope not.

And Only Allah swt knows best.
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Who Am I?
09-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Alright, I have to do this. You guys made me. Thread title is just begging for it. I'll let Bob Dylan take it from here:

Well, they'll stone ya when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone ya just a-like they said they would
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to go home
Then they'll stone ya when you're there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, they'll stone ya when you're walkin' 'long the street
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to keep your seat
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' on the floor
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' to the door
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.

They'll stone ya when you're at the breakfast table
They'll stone ya when you are young and able
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to make a buck
They'll stone ya and then they'll say "good luck"
Tell ya what, I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, They'll stone you and say that it's the end
Then they'll stone you and then they'll come back again
They'll stone you when you're riding in your car
They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar
Yes, but I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, they'll stone you when you walk all alone
They'll stone you when you are walking home
They'll stone you and then say you are brave
They'll stone you when you are set down in your grave
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
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SFatima
09-28-2011, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by King of Nines
Alright, I have to do this. You guys made me. Thread title is just begging for it. I'll let Bob Dylan take it from here:
Not everybody & everywhere,
its all about if we care,
to hurt the people who are alone,
and then cry and run away from the stone,
As if the stone would hurt us more,
more than the pain the victim bore.

:p: no great rhyming so no stones plz

Stoning isnt as that simple as it sounds, its implication is a very rigorous process, to carry out the proceedings of whether it is applicable or not. People must stop thinking that everybody would be stoned in this world if this were the case with Islam , the truth is that Islam does not punish for crimes happened before embracing islam, neither are such penalties applied without the shariah being followed as a rule by a nation. If you commit adultery and tell no one, who's going to stone you? Nobody. How many people who commit the lowly act of adultery, have the guts to fess up? HArdly any. But knowing that there is a law that punishes you for it, can greatly impact people's minds and force the evil out of their minds even it appears very charming to them at some point.

Islam discourages all forms of social evils and only grave penalties can prevent people from great mishaps. Either you endorse 'no real punishment' for sexual abuse offenses, protect them and support the social destruction of a society or you sing about the destruction voicing your pain. ( and singing helps remove social evils?Nothing against poetry though , but it doesnt help the masses )
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Ramadhan
09-28-2011, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
If u save one person it's as if u have saved all of mankind, and if u kill one person it's as if u have killed all of mankind unless it is a woman and she is said to have done something wrong than u can mercilessly bury her chest deep in the ground and toss medium sized rocks at her for the deliberate slow and torturous death -- really? hadith mix up? something?
stoning is applicable for men and women.
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Insaanah
09-28-2011, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
OK this has been bothering me foreaaalll... ppl be talking about how islam is crazy and abusive to it's women and i'm always sticking up for us, u know saying i wear the hijab cause i WANT to, which is true, and i dress modest cause i WANT to, also true. all that. but they end up goin around that and to the topic of stoning. and honestly......idk what to say!
Originally Posted by Gothique
If u save one person it's as if u have saved all of mankind, and if u kill one person it's as if u have killed all of mankind unless it is a woman and she is said to have done something wrong than u can mercilessly bury her chest deep in the ground and toss medium sized rocks at her for the deliberate slow and torturous death -- really? hadith mix up? something?
You need to be very careful of their "questions". You're thinking how to answer their question. Except that the question itself is wrong. They've said to you about women getting stoned and you're thinking how to defend that. Well, you don't have to. Why? Because stoning is prescribed for married adulterers, men and women (as mentioned by Br Ramadhan above). There is nothing that mentions, as far as I know that stoning is only for women. The various ahadeeth on the topic mention both married men and women being stoned. Here's one that refers just to a man:

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that a man from the Aslam tribe came to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and said to him, "I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr said to him, "Have you mentioned this to anyone else?" He said, "No." Abu Bakr said to him, "Then cover it up with the veil of Allah. Allah accepts tawba from his slaves." His self was still unsettled, so he went to Umar ibn al-Khattab. He told him the same as he had said to Abu Bakr, and Umar told him the same as Abu Bakr had said to him. His self was still not settled so he went to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to him, "I have committed adultery," insistently. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, turned away from him three times. Each time the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, turned away from him until it became too much. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, questioned his family, "Does he have an illness which affects his mind, or is he mad?" They said, "Messenger of Allah, by Allah, he is well." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Unmarried or married?" They said, "Married, Messenger of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and he was stoned. (From the Muwatta of Imam Malik, chapter on stoning, hadeeth no 2)

Originally Posted by Gothique
is it really part of islam???????????? =/
Not only Islam, but Judaism and Christianity too. The only difference being that they don't always follow their scripture, or pick and choose what to follow, abandoning some of God's laws. Whereas we follow what Allah and His prophet :saws: have commanded us. Stoning is mentioned for no less than 18 different crimes in the Old Testament. These include cursing one's parents, witchcraft, idolatry etc.

The topic and fiqh of stoning is detailed as to the cirumstances it is to be employed in, and any conditions that need to be met etc and I'm not attempting to explain any of that here, but just to say, 1) it's not only for women, but men as well, as shown above, and 2) it is also legislated in the Old Testament for a far greater range of crimes than in Islam.

Hope that helps a bit.

And Allah knows best in all matters, and may He forgive me if I said anything wrong.

:sl:
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Muezzin
09-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

stoning is applicable for men and women.
And the standard of proof required to establish, say, adultery is extremely, and deliberately, high - to the point where stoning for such an offence should be a very rare occurence indeed according to Sharia.

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that a man from the Aslam tribe came to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and said to him, "I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr said to him, "Have you mentioned this to anyone else?" He said, "No." Abu Bakr said to him, "Then cover it up with the veil of Allah. Allah accepts tawba from his slaves." His self was still unsettled, so he went to Umar ibn al-Khattab. He told him the same as he had said to Abu Bakr, and Umar told him the same as Abu Bakr had said to him. His self was still not settled so he went to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to him, "I have committed adultery," insistently. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, turned away from him three times. Each time the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, turned away from him until it became too much. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, questioned his family, "Does he have an illness which affects his mind, or is he mad?" They said, "Messenger of Allah, by Allah, he is well." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Unmarried or married?" They said, "Married, Messenger of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and he was stoned. (From the Muwatta of Imam Malik, chapter on stoning, hadeeth no 2)
This.
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Salahudeen
09-28-2011, 09:43 PM
It doesn't matter if you're a woman or man, the punishment applies to both.
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M.I.A.
09-28-2011, 10:08 PM
dont worry gothique i can be more stupid than you, what use has god of judges and punishments?

allah swt needs nothing to represent him, that is not up for debate.

we can go on and on about what is meant for you and what is not meant for you being decreed by god,

or hadiths quoted day after day... im kinda worried, do you guys even read what you write or ponder on its implications within your world view or is it a copy past job or this looks nice on another forum.

in my experience what goes around comes around, nobody gets away with murder... nobody.

islam practised today is not the same as 1400 years ago, to even imply so is stupidity of the highest measure.
womens rights and there treatment are not the same either.

stoning is barbaric, do you not think allah swt is the best of judges?

if stoning is written for him then its stoning he will get, but even if you did not know his crime and he walked the earth.. would allah swt not stone him?

after all he rehearses his signs unto us day after day, its a shame you would rather follow the "rules" then follow guidance.


its all a bit cryptic no?

plane as day in my eyes.
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Insaanah
09-28-2011, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
ppl be talking about how islam is crazy and abusive to it's women
Islam actually is the only religion that affords so much protection to women.

Originally Posted by Gothique
it's disgusting, and it's immoral!
Is the type of society that Islam envisages immoral, or a society where people can sleep around, have one night stands, and a bit of fun on the side, where families are being destroyed every day by such acts?

In Islam, the family is the very foundation, the bedrock, the cornerstone of society. This small unit of people, and their behaviour, has an effect on society at large.

Lawful and unlawful methods for fulfilling our desires have been made clear to us. In Adultery, an adulterer resorted to an unlawful method when there existed a lawful method for satisfying his sex desires.

Islam does not rely on punishment alone for saving humanity from the menace of adultery. It employs both reformatory, preventative and prohibitory measures on a large scale. It has provided legal punishment only as a last resort. Islam does not want that people should go on committing this crime and being flogged or stoned day and night. Its real aim is that the people should not commit this crime at all and there should be no occasion to resort to this punishment.

For this purpose Islam first of all purifies man: it imbues him with the fear of All-Powerful and All-Knowing Allah: to know that He is always watching him; love of Allah, with which he always wants to obey Allah and not incur His displeasure; it inculcates in him the sense of accountability for his actions in the Hereafter from which even death cannot release him. It fills him with obligation of obedience to Divine Law which follows true Faith. Then, it repeatedly warns him that zina/adultery and unchastity are heinous crimes, which Allah will call to account with a severe reckoning. This theme occurs again and again in the Qur'an.

Moreover, Islam provides all possible facilities for a man to marry. If he is not satisfied with one wife, he is allowed to take up to four. If the husband and the wife cannot get on amicably, there are provisions for separation. In case of a dispute between the two, provision exists for reconciliation through the intervention of the members of the family and failing that through the judicial courts so that they should either reconcile or separate and then remarry wherever they like.

Then Islam puts an end to all those factors which allure a man to zina or provide occasions for it. A year before the punishment for zina was prescribed, women were commanded (in Surah Al-Ahzab) to cover themselves. This was a model which was followed by all the believing women who considered the Prophet's wives and daughters patterns of virtue. Similarly, the free mixing of the men and women was prohibited.

After adopting such measures zina was declared to be a punishable offence and spreading of indecency in any way was also prohibited. Prostitution was legally banned and severe punishment was prescribed for accusing men and women of adultery and propagating it without proof. Men were enjoined to restrain their gaze so that unrestricted feasting of eyes should not lead to lust for beauty and further on to illicit love. At the same time women were also enjoined to differentiate between mahram and non-mahram relatives. This enables one to understand the entire scheme of reform, a constituent part of which is the prescribed punishment for zina. This extreme punishment is for those persons who persist in resorting to the illegal course for the gratification of their sex desires in spite of all the measures adopted to reform the individual and society. Such a punishment serves as a psychological deterrent for those who have similar tendencies.

Subhaanallah, a complete system of prevention, with so many measures, you can see how far down the line punishment is. What other faith has such an effective and organised system in place? Let us never apologise for Allah's law, but be proud of it.

Adapted from Tafheemul Qur'an by S.A Maududi.

And Allah knows best in all matters.

:sl:
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M.I.A.
09-28-2011, 10:53 PM
i would say to you any reform or legislation was put in place to minimise the shaytan,

it was not to govern the people, it was to protect the people from what they are unable or unwilling to perceive.

judgement waits till judgement day, the guidance was to show you what this world is.. and which one reigns free.

that knowledge of a perfect religion is unchanged no?

and no matter how many people you stone to death, the shaytan will be behind the next one also.

hate the action and not the person.

what point is there of selecting islam as the religion if not to make believing people more aware..

and in my own eyes here is the paradox,

if islam does not want that its people should be flogged than maybe we should stop flogging each other. mankind is nothing but insolence and competition.. no amount of civility or government will change what we are.

we can walk about tormented or in the presence of people unwilling to torment us.

..removing tumult and oppression, i think it was in the mission statement.

let me tell you a true story,

it does not have any bearing on the above but this is my personal experience.

there was a time when i was so angry with the world that i learn to box, it got to the point where i could hit the bag about five times per second maybe six or seven if pushed.

thankfully i was learning the quran for a few years before and it got to the point where at every opportunity to hit someone i did not.
it turns out its always the same people to the point where its almost the same arguments and wording.

at that point i realised that having good understanding and faith in allah is more important than being able to defend yourself.. after all not everybody can box.

never had to hit a person since that day..and its the last thing on my mind but the first thing they want.

you can do nothing in this world except wrong your own soul.

when its not your eyes or teeth on the line then you find out what you are frightened to hurt.

i literally am my brothers keeper by the looks of it.

i hasten to add that boxing makes no difference in the end, i am under no illusion as to my own mortality.
and self righteousness does not always equate to humility (plenty of beatings to prove it)
so its better to have spent your time learning to have objective arguments and explaining ideas to people.. plant seeds and if they grow or not all praise is due to allah swt.
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MSalman
09-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Aprender
I don't think that's helpful to the sister though.
She asked if it was part of Islam or not and I answered her accordingly. And then advised her to focus on her obligations. How's that not helpful is beyond me?

Originally Posted by Aprender
If people are saying something bad about Islam how can you tell her not to worry about it when she is coming to us for help to defend the religion and clear misconceptions?
She didn't ask what's the wisdom behind this ruling instead she questioned an Islamic ruling and declared it immoral/disgusting. Is this the manner in which a Muslim asks a question?

People say things about Islam all the time, you can't refute every tom dick harry on the street - this is not our job. Do you think these kind of people will actually buy our response to the misconceptions? Even if we do answer one thing, they will move to next, then what, keep playing tennis in their court they serve and we return? Why are people with weak imaan and without strong knowledge of basics of Islam are visiting these websites, watching videos and engaging in discussions & entertaining their suspicious arguments? And then they end up making kufr statements and some don't even accept Islamic ruling when evidence is brought forward rather they reject it or find ways to reinterpret it.

We need to sort our priorities and focus on the root problem. We need to come out of this fairy land "everyone must give dawah and respond to attacks against Islam".
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Aprender
09-29-2011, 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by MSalman
People say things about Islam all the time, you can't refute every tom dick harry on the street - this is not our job. Do you think these kind of people will actually buy our response to the misconceptions?
I was one of those people not too long ago. So yes!

I didn't think your answer was helpful because you didn't provide any further evidence to help her learn and understand why when clearly at the end it appeared that she was looking for a bit more explanation there. I am interested in learning more too. I just think you should be careful not to clump every human into one category like that.
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Insecured soul
09-29-2011, 04:58 AM
I dont have much knowledge in this, but if that is shariah then its right, allah azzawajal will never command us to do something bad. Whenever we have doubts think that islam does not have problems but there is a problem in my understand. Thats the way to perceive it and then go ahead for clarifications.

one more thing we must remember always that islam tries to eliminate evil from the root. so may be this stoning thing does look horrible but if puts fear in the womens and mens hearts and stop them from doing adultery

salaam
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GuestFellow
09-29-2011, 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Hey, me n my stupid questions again lol =)

OK this has been bothering me foreaaalll... ppl be talking about how islam is crazy and abusive to it's women and i'm always sticking up for us, u know saying i wear the hijab cause i WANT to, which is true, and i dress modest cause i WANT to, also true. all that. but they end up goin around that and to the topic of stoning. and honestly......idk what to say!
it's disgusting, and it's immoral! +o(
is it really part of islam???????????? =/

Someone please help me lol im like feeling so sick watching stoning stuff and seeing how WRONG they are!

If u save one person it's as if u have saved all of mankind, and if u kill one person it's as if u have killed all of mankind unless it is a woman and she is said to have done something wrong than u can mercilessly bury her chest deep in the ground and toss medium sized rocks at her for the deliberate slow and torturous death :raging: -- really? hadith mix up? something?
Salaam,

Ezio! What's up? :p:

Stoning is a punishment for adultery. It applies to BOTH men and women. Adultery is a serious sin. It can destroy family life, so an effective system of deterrence is put in place to deter people committing adultery.

You cannot kill an innocent person. A person that has committed a serious sin such as rape and adultery will receive capital punishment as long as there is strong evidence.

http://en.islamtoday.net/node/659
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M.I.A.
09-29-2011, 09:33 AM
well i guess you have become hard of heart really,

half the population will be walking around without hands, stoned or worse.

better to just kill them right?

man enforcing gods law(allegedly), like the taliban the usa etc etc.. well then we move forward.

i guess if any of these problems directly effected you then maybe you would be less hard in judgement? nope, i am beginning to doubt it.


the above opinion may not even have to be taken literally, its just my perception of the various disadvantaged people i have come across which i have tried to relate as best i can to my religion.

you go on about governments of islam but the first(not sure if they were the first) people to represent islam were hopeless, sorry homeless.
try to put that in perspective about justice and the way god works.
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SafaAuditore
09-29-2011, 12:14 PM
Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much :)

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)
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Salahudeen
09-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much :)

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Islamic law is not implemented in a mob way sister where people run around stoning each other based upon rumours, no person has the right to implement the punishments apart from the authorative government, and that's only after a judge has decided upon the case, based upon the evidence. God has given us a law, with this law a state can be run, it might be more understandable in the following way, why do we put humans in prison for crimes? why don't we just let them do their crimes and wonder around untill God punishes them.

This is not correct is it because a criminal has to face the consequences of breaking the law, if he steals he goes to prison if found guilty, what you're saying is, "Why should we punish him, we should let God punish him in this life or the after life" mean while this criminal thief walks around stealing? What about when someone commits murder and other humans punish him by putting him in prison, should we just let murderers walk around and say we'll wait until God punishes him in this life or the here after while in the mean time he's murdering people this just doesn't work.

When he murdered he took away someone's right to life, he took away someone's right to be a mother, he took a way someone's right to be a father, he took away someone's right to be a sister/brother, you see the crime of murder not only impacts upon the victim but the entire family that's why we don't accept it and view it as a serious crime that must be punished so that justice can be established,Islam is all about justice.

Similarly adultery is also a very serious crime, it also takes away the rights of many people and leaves them in despair/sadness for possibly their entire life, however cos of the promiscuous societies that we live in, we've come to belittle it and think of it as something minor but rather it is a great crime, it violates the rights of the wife and children, look at how many broken families there are, children growing up without fathers cos the husband ran off with another woman, women never trusting another man because their last husband cheated on them so they spend the rest of their life alone raising his kids while he's out living life to the full with some other floozy, no this isn't correct, justice must be established for the violation of rights that occurred.

Adultery also effects the kids negatively because they grow up in a dysfunctional home and subsequently experience other problems as a result, then they pass on the same life style to their kids, for example a lot of men who beat women, as they were being raised they saw their father doing it to their mother so they inherited the problem due to their father abusing the rights of his wife.

So kids who grew up in a broken family cos the father cheated also grow up experiencing problems and depression, I know a kid who slipped into severe depression after his father cheated on his mother, he became suicidal because the life he knew just fell apart, he never came home to mum and dad any more, he came home everyday to a house full of sadness and depression, he had to go for counselling cos he couldn't handle how the family had just fallen apart and his old life was completely gone. So the point is, adultery has ramifications that affect everyone, not just the two people involved. But for some reason we over look the rights of other people as insignificant.

You're argument may be that those crimes I mentioned above such as murder and theft are way more serious than adultery and warrant a punishment in order to protect people, however since when did we decide what is a serious crime and what isn't? It is God who decides what is a serious crime that warrants a punishment, and he says that adultery is a very bad crime that carries a punishment if found guilty.

Now George Bush, Tony Blair and other men in suits may disagree with this, but are you really gonna accept men in suits who legalize porn and other vices to be your law maker? These men in suits made the law that Adultery carries no punishment, does that mean their law is correct? We have this mentality that everything in Islam has to conform with the secular laws that men in suits made otherwise it's wrong, but since when did men in suits become infallible with regards to making laws, rather we should be questioning why these men in suits think they know better than God and why they legislate laws that go against his, and when did they get the right to legislate for humanity?

Our perception of good and bad changes from time to place, for example gay marriages are the new thing, people think there's nothing wrong with gay marriages these days however 50 years ago people were disgusted at the idea, which demonstrates that people's perception of good and bad changes with the time and society they live in, 50 years ago they would have been shocked and appalled at the idea of gay marriages, if you asked them, "do you ever see gay marriages being accepted in society" bet most of them would have said "no" but today they are because people view how bad something is according to the time they live in and the law that applies to it.

In our times, adultery is made out to not be such a big crime because no punishment is given to it in secular law, theft and murder are classed as much bigger crimes in western societies because of the punishments they carry, if we were raised in a society where adultery was classed as a crime on the same level as murder then it would seem normal to us. However because we live in a society that belittles adultery as something so insignificant that it doesn't even carry a sentence then we also view it as something trivial but the reality is that it's not trivial, under Islam and in the sight of the creator Adultery is on the same level as other big crimes, adultery is fraud, deception, lying, cheating, violation of rights, but the men in suits who make laws, think that's ok and should go unpunished, and instead of questioning their judgement, we question our creator. (not referring to you personally)

I wake up everyday thinking how can a society legalize porn (prostitution), strip clubs, abortions, and other evil vices, that degrade women and promote them as nothing more than mere sexual objects and then turn around and say Islam degrades women because it says they should cover up so that they are viewed and valued as people with intelligence rather than sex objects who are judged according to how big their chest is.

I find it hideous, then it occurs to me that, the men who make these secular laws, are men who are lead by their desires and not the goal of achieving the best quality of life for humanity. I often wonder when women in the west will wake up and realize what they call freedom is really slavery to the perverted desires of men.

What I don't understand even more is, why don't women speak out and protest against such laws that promote the woman as nothing more than a sex object. I don't ever recall seeing a women in the west mention how evil prostitution and strip clubs are, I mean they bang on about Islam all day but they have problems on their front door, women are being used and abused every day. Don't the women in the west find it disturbing that the men who rule their country think it's ok for prostitution to take place in the form of pornography, don't the women want to protest against women being viewed as nothing more than sex objects when a tv add comes on showing a half naked woman on top of a car. Don't they want to protest when they have to conform to a dress code that entails a short skirt or trousers that expose her rear in order to be accepted? I've gone off topic but this is something on my mind lately that I can't understand.

Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
Sister, in reality the chances of 4 people witnessing you do the act are virtually nil, unless you're making a public show, think about how hard it would be to achieve a conviction where 4 people saw the act taking place, they actually have to see the male organ inside the female, if they walk in and the two people are just lying in the bed next to each other then that doesn't count I was told, and from the previous hadiths that sister Insannah posted, we saw that Umar and Abu Bakr told the man to conceal his sin so if you conceal it and ask for forgiveness then you won't be taken to court before a judge and tried for it, will you? It may border on your concious for the rest of your life but if you keep it between you and Allah then how will you ever be tried in a court of law? Unless you go round publicizing it.
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M.I.A.
09-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much :)

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)
i watch peace tv sometimes and there is a guy on there that talks about Christianity often.. i think he may specialise.

if i remember correctly he said that any person who thinks about adulatory it is the same as performing the act.
if this is the case then there may be more punishable then first thought.
i have no idea what facts his views are based so im sure someone can better clarify.

im not sure on Christianities views on treating parents but the quran does mention that the quran itself is the guidance, so will you still follow the ways of your fathers and there forefathers(loosely paraphrased).

repentance is remembrance,
so spend this life remembering allah swt..and dont be of those that are heedless of there own prayers (in the book, not sure where)

maybe thats the whole point, punishing each other is acting on autopilot.
its said that the tongue can lead to hell.. but everytime you put somebody down it feels like you have won.

its the shaytan that makes our own actions seem fair to us(again not sure where it is in the book, but it is there), we are content in living like that.

so people keep punishing and being punished.. insolence and competition.

we dont live by mob rule but im sure they will show up after the trial.

also in western ideology you cant get married to more than one women so technically your either awaiting visa or cheating.. whatever man.. also its no longer "socially acceptable"
the quran also states that those that your right hand possess are lawful unto you(i have no idea what that means) but also socially unacceptable apparently.

kids grow up in broken homes not for cheating but because of poor parenting.. if only someone would remember the children for gods sake!

its a case of rules on morality actually abolishing morality AND compassion AND empathy AND ultimately humanity.
whatever man, i live my life and i know i will have to account..
people think that believing in god allows us to go on autopilot in this life.

when we finally see it, then you will know where you are heading(loosely paraphrased)

im always loosely paraphrasing, dont need the road becoming any tighter
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Who Am I?
09-29-2011, 03:31 PM
:sl:

I had a nice long reply to brother Salahudeen's post but I lost it. I'm not re-typing it now.

But dude, that was AWESOME. Totally awesome.
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GuestFellow
09-29-2011, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists. So he has given permission to humans to punish other humans in this world. Of course, there will be those who commit sin and do not get punished. These people will be dealt with in the next life by Allah.

Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
Torture is when you inflict pain, whether physical or psychological or a combination of both, on a suspect to extract information. In Islam, we do not punish suspects. In order to punish an individual, they need to be found guilty and then sentenced by a Judge.

If you have two couple that commit fornication openly in public, you need to punish them to deter other people from committing this sexual offence. If they are not punished, some people will not be afraid to commit fornication. Due to the negative consequences of fornication, deterrence takes priority over rehabilitation.

There is pornography available all over the Internet. It encourages others to engage in sex outside of marriage. In the past, to prove someone for fornication/adultery was difficult. Now, if implemented, establishing the guilt of those that commit the offence is much easier if they were to post it on the Internet which everyone has access to.

And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
Yes, it is painful. That is the purpose of stoning. It will make people think twice before committing adultery. Keep in mind, the punishment in hell is worse.

So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
Well not in this world as explained above.

And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)
From what I can remember, you will not get punished twice for the same sin. If you get stoned for adultery, you will not get punished in hell. Other members can feel free to correct me on this one, I'm not aware of the details.
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SafaAuditore
09-29-2011, 08:14 PM
Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol
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SafaAuditore
09-29-2011, 08:25 PM
@Tragic Typos
You said God will carry out his punishment not in this life, so in the afterlife, so why would WE need to punish them?
“Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists.” I don’t even understand what that means lol XD
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GuestFellow
09-29-2011, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
@Tragic Typos
You said God will carry out his punishment not in this life, so in the afterlife, so why would WE need to punish them?
We need to punish criminals because none of us want to live in a society where we have people committing crime. No one wants to live in an area where people kill and rape other people and get away with it. So that is why we have a system to ensure to protect the public and prosecute and punish those that commit offences. This is our responsibility.

“Allah will not punish those who commit sin in this world because everyone will know he exists.” I don’t even understand what that means lol XD
Sure, badly explained.

The whole purpose of our existence is to believe and serve Allah, even though we cannot see him. This is the test. If Allah were to appear and punish the criminals, we would all believe in him, which defeats the purpose of the test. Do you get it? :skeleton: Wow this is actually hard to explain lol.
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M.I.A.
09-29-2011, 09:29 PM
with regards to murder, i think the story of kain and able may shed some light on how allah swt manifests justice in this world.
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joyous fairy
09-29-2011, 10:32 PM
Assalam Alaykum,

Just a few points I would like to add:

If Allah swt did not reveal certain punishments for certain crimes, the crimes would be occurring on a much larger scale. Even now that there is not one Islamic state, Muslims know the punishment for certain crimes is meant to be so severe, they cant imagine what the punishment for it will be when they
they die. We dont know how bad it will be but we know that certain crimes will be dealt with much more harshly and because they are given the chance to own up and repent, they can escape that punishment. Obviously we can leave it to Allah swt, and get punished in the hereafter. For all we know, Allah swt may punish us a lot more harshly.

Also, if Allah swt did not send down punishments for certain crimes, wouldnt people wonder at the truthness of Islam? I think religion should tell us what is a sin and what is a major sin. If it did not, people would do what they want. The fact its a way of life it should come into every aspect of our life. If certain crimes were not mentioned it would be far easier for people to commit them and avoid the punishment. People can easily say 'we didnt know about the enormity of the crime'. So they would be able to get away with it! Obviously common sense tells us that adultery is wrong, and that is the point, Islam is a common sense religion! The punishments are written according to the scale of the crime.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-30-2011, 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol
:sl: sister,

I am not sure if you read all the above explanations, but it seems you keep forgetting the very strict conditions adultery can be tried and punished.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-30-2011, 04:51 AM
double post.

please delete.
Reply

SafaAuditore
09-30-2011, 07:26 AM
Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????
Reply

Ramadhan
09-30-2011, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by Gothique
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????
Using this argument, then all prisons must be abolished, all kinds of punishments in any forms must be abolished, all perpetrators of ANY crimes must not be punished, because all those punishments are administered by humans anyway.

I'm not quite sure if you see any logic in it.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-30-2011, 10:43 AM
As'Salaam Alaykum

Originally Posted by Gothique
Ok thanks everyone for clarifications, and thanks insaanah very much :)

SO... I understand that stoning needs EVIDENCE, that's one point. And that it's purpose is to draw people away from evil thoughts. So it's like how Christianity pointed out to put to death anyone who talks bad or strikes their parents...just enforced lol.

NEW QUESTION: Even though stoning is mainly to keep the evil thoughts of crime from people's heads, as said, that still keeps the one thing there...Why would God make HUMANS have to PUNISH other humans themselves, rather than from his own...hands (?)... during the life or in the afterlife even??
Shouldn't one who committed a crime be given time to repent and beg for forgiveness, I mean surely they regret everything they've done, no? Everyone is vulnerable in the end. If you gave them prison time, they'd be able to purify themselves again. But just straight up torture??
And even if they do have to kill the person right away, they don't even SHOOT the victims, or hang them, or something that kills them fast, they gotta use stones! The stones make them suffer alot! It still makes me sick -.-
So...Shouldn't God's punishment be carried out by...idk...God?
And isn't God the most forgiving? Al rahmaaaan! He is, so why would he tell us to kill the person of the crime/sin rather than either punish them himself, or allow them to repent? ^o)
Your right, so in other words God is not injust, he doesn't punish for no reason, nor does he prescribe punishment for no reason, even he knows the hearts of all people and we humans do not.

No where does it state that God just punishes just like that or places punishment for no reason, are you aware of the 99 attributes of Allaah SWT?

Al Ghaffar - The Forgiving, Al Ad'l - The just, and these are just a few of his many beautiful names.

Yes, Allaah SWT states in his noble book that we humans are weak..

"And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak."[Al Qur'aan 4:28]

so therefore we will commit mistakes, and the best of sinners is one whom repents, so yes there is forgiveness, one who repents, repents with sincerety..

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 39:53]

One thing is that the shari'ah law is not implemented completely in the world today, only parts, and the way the stoning takes place are not by islamic legislated principles, in other words Islam doesn't allow/accept this way of stoning, where people are completely taking the law into their own hands, and are injust by not showing no mercy, by not turning to individual whether they repented sincerely, it seems there is a lack of knowledge in these cases. However, I am not aware of any place where stoning has taken place in accordance to shari'ah law as of yet, so If I am incorrect do feel free to correct me. The punishment of stoning is of such that noone would dare commit crimes that lead to being stoned or punishments as such, if only they knew. So if there are those who aren't aware of the consequences, they would most likely fall into the traps of major sin, thinking its not wrong and that it is okay, when in reality it is not, rather the society, people, environment, and so on make it seem like it is okay.

After one whom has committed the act of Zina, in order to be forgiven he will have committed the act of Zina out of ignorance and not with the intention that "Allaah is forgiving, so therefore we must continue", this is known as taking advantage of the forgiveness and mercy of Allaah SWT, when knowing the act is completely forbidden itself. The individual should be in full state of humbleness and humiliation before his lord Allmighty, that the crime he committed was completely wrong, he must then make an intention to not return to the sin while asking for forgiveness from his lord..


"When those who believe in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) come to you, say: "Salamun 'Alaikum" (peace be on you); your Lord has written Mercy for Himself, so that, if any of you does evil in ignorance, and thereafter repents and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then surely, He is Oft�Forgiving, Most Merciful".[Al Qur'aan 6:54]

I'm sure others have explained it well inshaa'Allaah and hope it is helpful towards yourself.

If I have stated anything incorrect please do correct me.


Originally Posted by Gothique
Lol i agree that was an amazing post. And so true bro.
BUT (i would..), In the end u kind of came to my point! U end up keeping it for the rest of ur life between only urself and God, so if u commit adultery, for example, you won't get killed for it! You'll be able to repent and earn forgiveness, and probably become a person even better and more sincere and faithful than u were before! If you commit murder, you're not going to confess to it! (most likely).. but if u get caught then you'll be punished lawfully, with jail time and/or execution. EXECUTION; with the IV thing, not with stones that torment u for a while before u die -.- In the jail time, you'll realize what u've done, and you'll regret it, and you'll repent, and you'll become sincere, and pure, and clean, and a good muslim (MAYBE). Lots of people convert to islam in jail, that's another thing, so imagine what a muslim turns to in jail. So go ahead n keep legal punishment, but RELIGIOUS punishment is honestly just….smhh.. u know? idk if my point is getting across lol
Yes, there is a way out, which is improving one self for his/her own good. Reasons to why a criminal is put in jail or punished in a certain way so that he may change, become a better person etc. In Islam this judge is Allaah, who knows what is a good for us and what is bad, so therefore he prescribed in his noble book just this.

Actually Islam is known more of a complete way of life. The sad thing is that what Islam teaches is NOT completely all implemented, therefore it makes Islam look like it is really bad, whereas it is only some muslims/followers who are not following the teachings correctly. This is due to lack of knowledge, ignorance of people who like to associate certain events with Islam. The reality is that these punishments are placed so that the crimes are decreased.

And I would like to add, you cannot come to a conclusion just by watching some video/article whatever the source may be, about stoning in regards to stoning in Islam. You have to study exactly what the shari'ah mentions in regards to this issue, it is an issue which requires a knowledgeable authority to reply, also one is required to seek 'ilm, and it is a journey we are all continuing with...

Originally Posted by Gothique
Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????
Not necessarily, the purpose of the punishment is so that the person will not go back to doing that crime again. Unfortunately the punishments prescribed by some government in this day are not enough to let the person realise that if these are the consequences we will face after doing a certain crime then we musnt by any form go back to doing that crime again. In other words a serious crime involves a serious punishment. If the person commited a major crime, he will have to deal with its consequences, he put himself in that certain position, but if that person realises and repents of his act with pure sincerety, repenting between himself and Allaah SWT and perform righteous deed's then Allaah is most forgiving.
Reply

joyous fairy
09-30-2011, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
Lolz i get it. I think...

Time outttt....
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????
Well, if the person knows that the punishment is being carried out according to the ruling that Allah swt has sent, they would have more fear of Allah swt.

Even so, better to stop people committing these sins than letting them get away with it with no fear of anyone.
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Ummshareef
09-30-2011, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Gothique
If humans punishing humans is so that the evil thoughts of potential sin in certain humans is driven away................then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God???????
No, because all Muslims know that the humans meting out the punishment are doing so because they are charged with responsibility for administering the Shariah, including the punishments prescribed by Allah subhana wa ta'alaa. Humans have no right to either increase or decrease the prescribed punishment - subject to high evidential standards being met. Allah subhana wa ta'alaa has set the punishment, so it must be administered. Full stop.

Before I reverted to islam, I was like you and thought that Islamic punishments were cruel and barbaric, but if you take the time to read up and understand the reasoning behind them, then insha'allah you will realise that they are actually great mercies provided by Allah subhaha wa ta'alaa for the protection of the Ummah and that they play a great part in keeping Islamic society safe and peaceful alHumdulillah. Stoning is undoubtedly an horrific punishment for adulterer and adultress alike - it is intended to be so but insha'allah can be easily avoided by staying away from sin. It should just be there in the back of everyone's mind as a constant reminder of the dangers of straying from the True Path and of the overwhelming power that Allah subhana wa ta'alaa holds over each and every one of us.
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User2024
09-30-2011, 08:00 PM
Salam

As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by PoweredByGoogle
As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.
Yes, as far as I know, there was no muslim who was punished for adultery during the time of Rasulullah (SAW) based on the four witnesses evidence.
The couple (separate cases) that I know of were based on their own voluntary confessions, a man and a pregnant woman from Junainah, who came forward to Muhammad (SAW) and confessed that they committed adultery, Rasulullah SAW was reluctant to mete out the punishment. With the pregnant woman, he pretended he didn't hear her and turned around. But the woman insisted that she deserved punishment until finally prophet (SAW) could not refuse and told the woman to go away and wait for punishment until the baby is born, hoping that the woman never comes back. And then after the woman has given birth, she came back to prophet (SAW) and demanded her own punishment, but Rasulullah (SAW) told her to go away and to nurse her baby until the baby is weaned at 2 yo in the hope that she never came back for her punishment. When two years has passed, she came back to Rasulullah saw, kept demanding her own punishment. This time, there was nothing that Rasulullah could do to delay her punishment. and so she was punished with stoning.
Right after her death, some people were gossiping about her, saying that she was such a loose woman. Hearing this, Rasulullah (SAW) said that the repentance of the woman was so great and if her repentance was divided among the residents of Madinah, it would have been enough to wipe out all their sins.
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SafaAuditore
10-01-2011, 03:31 AM
Jazakallahi khairun bros and siss =) I understandd!
Another question cleared! :D
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MSalman
10-01-2011, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Aprender
I didn't think your answer was helpful because you didn't provide any further evidence to help her learn and understand why when clearly at the end it appeared that she was looking for a bit more explanation there. I am interested in learning more too.
I didn't provide more information because of the way she asked this question. Let's agree to disagree on this.

Originally Posted by Aprender
I just think you should be careful not to clump every human into one category like that.
I didn't paint everyone with same brush. I was talking about Islamophobes and not people who have some ounce of sincerity in their heart when they have questions about Islam.

Originally Posted by Ramadhan

:sl: sister,

I am not sure if you read all the above explanations, but it seems you keep forgetting the very strict conditions adultery can be tried and punished.
Originally Posted by PoweredByGoogle
Salam

As far as I know stoning is only done when a women/man commits adultery, however they need four witnesses, which is very hard to provide in my case.
wa'alaykum as-salaam

I would like to add my 2 cents on this but it will have to wait until morning - I'm heading to bed.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 05:48 AM
I want to add some inputs and examples on the effectiveness of corporal punishments by non-muslim countries.

1. Singapore
vandalism, destruction of public properties carried corporal punishment by caning (and public littering carries heavy fines). Of course this has always been th esubject of derision, objection and disgust by the west, especially since an american boy (Michael Fay) and a swiss man (in separate cases) were caught and convicted and punished by caning. The west may see it as inhumane, but the fact shows that in very little time, with such strict corporal punishments, it has acted as deterrent, and Singapore was transformed in very little time from society that paid little respect for public cleanliness and order to become the world's cleanest, most orderly country.

2. China
Since its economy rose in the 80s and early 90s, corruption in China also rose dramatically, and to combat corruption, China instituted death penalty by hanging and execution by shooting for the worst and most prominent offenders to deter others. The west (and human right activists) have always derided the chinese as being "barbaric". But what did they know, the harsh corporal penalties were quite successful in slowing down corruption increases and is even reversing it. Fact: According to Transparency International, China dropped from being the fifth most corrupt out of 54 countries in Transparency International's 1995 Corruption Perception Index to 78 out of 158 in 2005 to 70 out of 163 in 2006 to 72 out of 179 in 2007 http://www.piie.com/publications/cha.../05iie4174.pdf
Everybody knew that in the 70s and 80s, corruption in China was very prevalent.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by Gothique
then wouldn't that mean they were driven away out of fear from the HUMANS and not from God
You see, Islam is for everyone. It is for the morally strong and morally weak, it is for those strong in faith and weak in faith. It is for the self-disciplined and the unruly. It is not just for those who already have fear from God.
And Islam provides means to hold familial and societal bonds and to prevent its breakdowns.
Some people may already have inclinations to have fear from God and to obey his rules, but these are very few. As Allah SWT states in the Qur'an: men are created weak.

Jesus (pbuh) observed mosaic laws and that included stoning for convicted adulterers. However, most early christians did not like this, and the roman christians certainly did not, so they fabricated a passage and introduced the infamous "pericope adulterae" (john 7:53-8:11) which never existed even in the oldest bible manuscripts and only made it in the latin vulgate (6 to 7th century). This is the passage where Jesus (pbuh) supposedly said "those without sin cast the first stone" and cited often and much by christians to show that Jesus (pbuh) abolished stoning for adulterers and to tolerate sinful behaviour, and as you can see the western countries which are founded by the principles of tolerating adultery have become the place of highest divorce rates, out of marriage children, unmarried couples, pornography, homosexual/incestuous sexual relationships etc.

Do you think that those are because the westerners/europeans are naturally weaker in faith than say muslims?
no, of course not, Allah is just and he made us equal. That is because the christians (and the jews) did away the laws from God that they are supposed to uphold and think their own man-made laws are better and/or more "humane".
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Ramadhan
10-01-2011, 09:38 AM
Also, keep in mind that those people who label shariah as barbaric are the same people who do not even blink when dropping the bombs on thousands of innocent women and children and old people.
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SafaAuditore
10-03-2011, 06:43 AM
Originally Posted by ramadhan
also, keep in mind that those people who label shariah as barbaric are the same people who do not even blink when dropping the bombs on thousands of innocent women and children and old people.
soooo true!!
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AlbertWesker
10-03-2011, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Not only Islam, but Judaism and Christianity too.
I have to disagree with that.

John 8:7 says: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Romans 3:12 says: All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

So, Christianity does not justify stoning!
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Ramadhan
10-03-2011, 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by AlbertWesker
I have to disagree with that.
Jesus (pbut) followed the mosaic laws. Here's what he said:

Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.

Unless you believe Jesus (pbuh) was lying, it is clear that he was sent to uphold the mosaic laws, and not to end/abolish/destroy/reduce.

Originally Posted by AlbertWesker
John 8:7 says: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Did you not read my previous post:
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Jesus (pbuh) observed mosaic laws and that included stoning for convicted adulterers. However, most early christians did not like this, and the roman christians certainly did not, so they fabricated a passage and introduced the infamous "pericope adulterae" (john 7:53-8:11) which never existed even in the oldest bible manuscripts and only made it in the latin vulgate (6 to 7th century). This is the passage where Jesus (pbuh) supposedly said "those without sin cast the first stone" and cited often and much by christians to show that Jesus (pbuh) abolished stoning for adulterers and to tolerate sinful behaviour, and as you can see the western countries which are founded by the principles of tolerating adultery have become the place of highest divorce rates, out of marriage children, unmarried couples, pornography, homosexual/incestuous sexual relationships etc.
Or do you actually not know that all bible scholars have agreed that John 7:53-8:11 aka "pericope adulterae" is actually fabricated and inauthentic?
Pericope adulterae was not in any oldest bible manuscripts, not found in any place in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts; neither in the two 3rd century papyrus witnesses to John - P66 and P75; nor in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. It only started to show up later in latin vulgate (latin translation) bible.

Maybe you also not know that almost all scholars have also agreed that Mark 16:9-20 is also fabrication?

It's sad that christians do not actually read their own bible, but to not know that their own bible scholars have even proven passages as being fabrication is even more pathetic.

Originally Posted by AlbertWesker
So, Christianity does not justify stoning!
I have to agree with you. Christianity as taught by Saul/paul of tarsus may not justify stoning (because it wouldn't have been too appealing to the pagan roman communities who were fond of their sexual decadence, not unlike the current western communities), but Jesus (pbuh) certainly upheld the stoning punishment for adultery.
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Who Am I?
10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
:sl:

Here in the US, our "justice system" has become so corrupt and ridiculous that the accused criminals have more rights in court than the victims of their crimes. More often than not, the victim ends up being the one on trial, because the defense attorneys will question their moral character and accuse them of lying.
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GuestFellow
10-03-2011, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by King of Nines
:sl:

Here in the US, our "justice system" has become so corrupt and ridiculous that the accused criminals have more rights in court than the victims of their crimes. More often than not, the victim ends up being the one on trial, because the defense attorneys will question their moral character and accuse them of lying.
:wa:

The defendant is innocent until proven guilty. The person that claims to be the victim could be a liar.
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Salahudeen
10-03-2011, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

The defendant is innocent until proven guilty. The person that claims to be the victim could be a liar.
While you have a point, I also understand what king of nines is saying, I was on jury service a few years back and on every case the barrister was twisting the words of all the witnesses and victims and making them look like liars with ulterior motives, in the cases that weren't clear cut, it made it very hard to determine who was guilty and who wasn't, I don't like the system at all cos the truth can be manipulated with a good barrister, but I guess yours is the counter argument.
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GuestFellow
10-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Salahudeen
While you have a point, I also understand what king of nines is saying, I was on jury service a few years back and on every case the barrister was twisting the words of all the witnesses and victims and making them look like liars with ulterior motives, in the cases that weren't clear cut, it made it very hard to determine who was guilty and who wasn't, I don't like the system at all cos the truth can be manipulated with a good barrister, but I guess yours is the counter argument.
Counsel's pay very close attention to wording. Witnesses and victims must be careful when they explain their version of events. If they have not worded it correctly or if something does not make sense, the counsel will point this out. Most of the time, witnesses and victims can be intimated and have difficulty expressing themselves in court.
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Who Am I?
10-03-2011, 08:08 PM
:sl:

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a joke. Most people already have their minds made up on someone's guilt or innocence before the trial ever begins.
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GuestFellow
10-03-2011, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by King of Nines
:sl:

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a joke. Most people already have their minds made up on someone's guilt or innocence before the trial ever begins.
:wa:

How do you know this? :p:
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Futuwwa
10-04-2011, 12:50 AM
Ramadhan, don't you ever feel even at least a little bit silly about lecturing people of other religions on what they believe in?
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Futuwwa
10-04-2011, 01:21 AM
When it comes to crime, draconian punishment and social justice are two opposite approaches on how to deal with it. Many people are dogmatically in support of the one but scoff at the notion that the other one would work. They are, however, both at their most efficient when used together. Draconian punishment alone doesn't deter people who have been pushed to the fringes of society and who have little other choice than crime. Nor does it offer encouragement for betterment, as the alternative offered is to live as a dog and slave on the bottom of society. Social justice, on the other hand, doesn't do that. Alone, however, it cannot change the fact that crime pays. For that, punishment is needed.

Saudi Arabia does both draconian punishment and social justice. The Soviet Union did it during its time. Both societies have some of the lowest crime rates ever.
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Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Ramadhan, don't you ever feel even at least a little bit silly about lecturing people of other religions on what they believe in?
If what you call showing facts is silly, then I'm guilty of charge.

Had you lived during prophet Muhammad SAW when he told off the polytheistic Quraish about how wrong their religions were and lecturing them on what they believed in, then by your current attitude, you would have also called Muhammad SAW silly.

More importantly, as a muslim I believe that prophet Jesus (pbuh) is one of the most noble prophets of Islam, and if someone falsely accuse him of something (in this case christians falsely accuse him of ending the stoning punishment for adultery), I feel that it is my right to refute them. Maybe you feel otherwise, but please spare me your snide remark.
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GuestFellow
10-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Ramadhan, don't you ever feel even at least a little bit silly about lecturing people of other religions on what they believe in?
I think it is just you. :p:
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Futuwwa
10-04-2011, 12:32 PM
False analogy. You tried to tell Albert what he should believe in to be a proper *Christian*, to be what he self-identifies as. Muhammed didn't lecture the Quraish on how they should be proper Pagans.
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Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 03:59 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
False analogy. You tried to tell Albert what he should believe in to be a proper *Christian*, to be what he self-identifies as. Muhammed didn't lecture the Quraish on how they should be proper Pagans.
First of all, to be a proper *Muslim*, to be what one self-identify as a muslim, one should send salam and salawat after mentioning the name of prophet Muhammad SAW.
Of course a *christian* may not want to send salam after prophet Muhammad SAW. And only those who hate prophet Muhammad SAW do not want to send salam and salawat salutation after mentioning his name. Likewise, a *muslim* should also send salam to any other prophets of Allah SWT.
If you have doubt over what I am telling you, here's what Allah SWT says:

Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace. (QS. Al Ahzab: 56)

It was narrated that Abdullah ibn Mas’ood (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said: “Allah has angels who go around on earth, conveying to me the salaam of my ummah.” [Sunan Nasaa'i, Saheeh Al-Albani]

Abu Hurayrah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, “There is not one of you who sends his greetings upon me except that Allah returns the soul to my body (in the grave) and I return his greeting.” [Abu Dawood, Saheeh Al-Albani]

Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, “The miser is the one in whose presence I am mentioned but he does not send salam for me.” [At-Tirmidhi, Saheeh Al-Albani]

Secondly, where in this thread did I tell Albert what he should believe in order to be a proper *christian*?
The only post I made for Albert in this thread is post #45, and I've been re-reading it again, but I cannot find the part where I told Albert what he should believe in to be a proper *christian*

I am actually quite impressed how you managed not to send salam and salawat to prophet Muhammad SAW AND falsely accusing your own brother in Islam in a single sentence, that is if you consider me brother in Islam.

Also, I'd suggest you read some good and complete sirah nabawiyyah to fully understand the kinds of conversations that prophet Muhammad SAW conducted with the polytheistic Quraish.

I hope you don't mind me trying to tell you what you should believe in to be a proper *Muslim*.

wa salam.
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Who Am I?
10-04-2011, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

How do you know this? :p:
Well speaking for myself personally, I usually have a pre-conceived notion. For example, OJ is guilty. I don't care what the jury said, he killed his wife. Casey Anthony is guilty. She killed her daughter, and I don't care what the jury said.
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GuestFellow
10-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by King of Nines
Well speaking for myself personally, I usually have a pre-conceived notion. For example, OJ is guilty. I don't care what the jury said, he killed his wife. Casey Anthony is guilty. She killed her daughter, and I don't care what the jury said.
But the jury don't say anything. They simply listen to the evidence. I agree with you that the jury may already have decided whether the defendant is guilty based on his appearance.

There are cases where the jury do not reach a decision and there has to be a new trial....
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Who Am I?
10-04-2011, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
But the jury don't say anything. They simply listen to the evidence. I agree with you that the jury may already have decided whether the defendant is guilty based on his appearance.

There are cases where the jury do not reach a decision and there has to be a new trial....
:sl:

This is true. There have been cases unfortunately where race is a factor and the jury may have a pre-conceived notion of guilt or innocence based on a defendant's race.
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Abz2000
10-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
False analogy. You tried to tell Albert what he should believe in to be a proper *Christian*, to be what he self-identifies as.
Muhammed didn't lecture the Quraish on how they should be proper Pagans.
actually Muhammad (pbuh) did:

34. But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
35. Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands:
(Its only answer can be), "Taste the penalty because ye blasphemed."

Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein:
Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.
Quran 2:121

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Quran 5:68


Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse.
Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?"
They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them."
Abdullah bin Salam (the ex-Jewish Rabbi) said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm."
They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it.
Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there.
They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm.
The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death.
('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

sound harsh? how many innocent men women and children are shot to death with lead stones in today's "civilized" world for no crime. whatsoever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
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