Saudi woman driver's lashing 'overturned by king'

[User29123]

Salam

I think Saudi should only do this kind of punishment if a person breaks Islamic law not their own country made up law.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15102190

[ardianto]

If I am living in Saudi Arabia, I will forbid my wife to drive car, following Saudi's rule. If my wife drives car and Saudi police arrest her, they must lash me, not my wife. This is my fault. I am her husband, she is under my guardianship. And as a guardian I have responsibility on what she does.

Every Saudi woman is under guardianship of a male in her family, it's means someone has responsibility on what she does. So, if a Saudi woman drives a car, govt must lash her guardian, not this woman.

[GuestFellow]

^ Salaam,

Very interesting, though I do disagree. I do think people have responsibility for their children since they are young, inexperienced in life and are likely to make serious mistakes. So if a child does something wrong, the parent should be responsibility to some extent, though there are some exceptions.

As for a Saudi women, she understands that she is not allowed to drive. By driving, she broke the law, not her guardian (that's if she has one) and needs to face punishment. If the punishment is not carried out, these laws are rather pointless.

[ardianto]

^ Salaam,

Very interesting, though I do disagree. I do think people have responsibility for their children since they are young, inexperienced in life and are likely to make serious mistakes. So if a child does something wrong, the parent should be responsibility to some extent, though there are some exceptions.

As for a Saudi women, she understands that she is not allowed to drive. By driving, she broke the law, not her guardian (that's if she has one) and needs to face punishment. If the punishment is not carried out, these laws are rather pointless.

Salaam, brother.

Different than women in other places, women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to sign any contract or agreement. It's because their status are always under guardian of a male mahram in their families. If we notice this rule from 'another side' we can see, it's means they are under responsibilities of their male mahram.

If Saudi Arabia doesn't have a guardianship law like this, I would propose another punishment, change lash punishment with fine, and govt can use that money to help poor people.

:)

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[GuestFellow]

Salaam, brother.

Salaam,

Different than women in other places, women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to sign any contract or agreement.

These are civil issues. There should be a distinction between civil and criminal matters.

It's because their status are always under guardian of a male mahram in their families. If we notice this rule from 'another side' we can see, it's means they are under responsibilities of their male mahram.

There are limits to responsibilities. The male guardian will not be responsible for everything. I'm certain Saudi law does not allow male guardians to be responsible for the criminal acts of their wife/female relatives.

If Saudi Arabia doesn't have a guardianship law like this, I would propose another punishment, change lash punishment with fine, and govt can use that money to help poor people.

Fines are not as effective as lashings to deter people from committing a crime.

I may sound harsh but I do support the ruling given by the Judge. To drive without a driving licence is irresponsible and dangerous to other road users. Whether or not women should be allowed to drive is different issue.

[Muezzin]

I may sound harsh but I do support the ruling given by the Judge. To drive without a driving licence is irresponsible and dangerous to other road users. Whether or not women should be allowed to drive is different issue.

Is this the penalty for driving without a licence in Saudi Arabia? Whether the driver is male or female?

[GuestFellow]

Is this the enalty for driving without a licence in Saudi Arabia? Whether the driver is male or female?

I assume the Saudi women was going to be lashed because she was driving a car. However, my personal reason for supporting this sentence because the women does not have a driving licence. Therefore, she is putting other road users in danger.

[marwen]

Many articles and threads on the net here and there, about saudi women. The problem is you rarely find articles made by saudi women themselves or saudi activists.
The point is, not every change that comes from outside is really helpful. Seriously, who really cares about another country's citizens, unless there is some hidden agenda.

Personally, yes, I found some of the saudi made laws sort of bizarre or useless, but who knows how is the peoples' culture there.

[TrueStranger]

I can’t believe what I’m reading on this thread. Lashing for driving? A right, which every human being should have. We have bigger issues and bigger criminals to lash and punish. Like the Saudi leaders that support America financially and with oil. Or how about the Saudis that abuse foreign workers, and discriminate against certain groups? How about dealing with the corrupt policies of Saudi Arabia.

Women that lived during the Prophet’s (PBUH) and the Rightly guided Caliphs (may Allah be pleased with all of them) used whatever object or animal was available for transportation at that period in history.

It becomes clear that the Muslim Ummah is in such a horrible state when we are too busy punishing our fellow sisters for driving, while financing Western war(s) that continuously kill hundreds of innocent Muslim WOMEN each year.

Am I WRONG to state that the King of Saudi Arabia should be Lashed for keeping close ties with the Western world in a time when the blood of Muslims in the West and in the Muslim world is being shed.

We need to get our priorities straight.

May Allah have Mercy upon us.

[mrashidhai]

Every person has to follow the law of land in which he/she lives. It is not a matter whether there is a women or else on the driving seat with license or not.
Further do not mix up the issues. Whether the king of S.A. supports west is a different issue. Certainly it is deplorable but debatable as well.

[Jedi_Mindset]

in Prophet Muhammeds(Saw) time, the women were riding on horses/donkeys/camels to. So it's not forbidden for her to drive, the KSA monarch is a pure dictatorship and betrayers of islam. They chose the side of israel and USA then of the ummah.

[GuestFellow]

I can’t believe what I’m reading on this thread. Lashing for driving? A right, which every human being should have.

Salaam,

I don't see driving as a right. People need to pass their exams first to avoid putting other road users in danger. I see driving as a privilege.

Like the Saudi leaders that support America financially and with oil.

There is nothing wrong with Saudi Arabia supporting America or any other country with oil as long as it is for business. However, I don't like how Saudi leaders invite US military bases and rarely protest against US/Israel imperial agenda.

Or how about the Saudis that abuse foreign workers, and discriminate against certain groups? How about dealing with the corrupt policies of Saudi Arabia.

No one is against that in this topic.

[Jedi_Mindset]

It's wrong to support the kufar with oil(For their business, military) to drop bombs on muslims and shoot muslims. Where is the ummah today man, so you support them to give them oil to kufar USA and israel, who oppress people?

[GuestFellow]

It's wrong to support the kufar with oil(For their business, military) to drop bombs on muslims and shoot muslims.

I meant it is okay for Saudi Arabia to give oil to countries for domestic usage. Like using oil for cars...

I am against using oil to oppress innocent civilians.

so you support them to give them oil to kufar USA and israel, who oppress people?

No.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Altough i still don't agree since the Saudi monarch is placed by them. Since the downfall of the ottoman empire with the help from the brits.

[TrueStranger]

Salaam,

I don't see driving as a right. People need to pass their exams first to avoid putting other road users in danger. I see driving as a privilege.



There is nothing wrong with Saudi Arabia supporting America or any other country with oil as long as it is for business. However, I don't like how Saudi leaders invite US military bases and rarely protest against US/Israel imperial agenda.



No one is against that in this topic.

A person should have the right to use the latest transportation, without being denied the opportunity to get access to that particular transportation. Our Muslims sisters were not even give the opportunity to get a drivers license, simply because they were women.

This particular issue is not about the woman putting fellow drivers in danger, but the fact that she dared to challenge a man-made Law that denied her the right to get a drive’s license or drive on her own.

You should read the historical relationship between Saudi Arabia and America. President Roosevelt and King ibn Saud both agreed that Saudi Arabia would give American the “privilege” to get access to Saudi oil, while America would guarantee the “protection” of the Saudi Kingdom. Their relationship hasn’t changed in decades, and it most certainly is not only a business deal, but one that is also militaristic in nature. America does provide weapons to Saudi Arabia, and those weapons were lately used against the People of Bahrain. Fellow Muslims. The Saudi family has no intentions of protesting or truly condemning America’s policies against Muslims around the world. Saudi Arabia has to do one simply thing to stop the Palestinian occupation, to stop the war on Iraq, to stop the war on Afghanistan, to stop the drone against Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. Just one simply thing. Threaten to stop the supply of oil to the Western World. But why would they, when they have made America their “Protector”.


Whether someone is against it or not is not the issue. It is a matter that should be addressed so we could get our priorities straight.

Salaam Aliakum.

[GuestFellow]

A person should have the right to use the latest transportation, without being denied the opportunity to get access to that particular transportation. Our Muslims sisters were not even give the opportunity to get a drivers license, simply because they were women.

Saudi women do have access to public transportation, though it is sometimes not reliable. I do believe women should be allowed to drive but change must occur at a steady pace and when the society is ready.

This particular issue is not about the woman putting fellow drivers in danger, but the fact that she dared to challenge a man-made Law that denied her the right to get a drive’s license or drive on her own.

Driving without a licence is putting other road users in danger. Everyone who wants to drive must take some lessons and pass some sort of test to see whether they are going to drive safely.

There are other ways to challenge the law. In this case, breaking the law is not acceptable IMO because there was a possibility other road users were at risk of harm.

You should read the historical relationship between Saudi Arabia and America.

I'm already familiar with it.

Whether someone is against it or not is not the issue. It is a matter that should be addressed so we could get our priorities straight.

Sorry I don't understand this...

Salaam Aliakum.

:wa:

[TrueStranger]

Saudi women do have access to public transportation, though it is sometimes not reliable. I do believe women should be allowed to drive but change must occur at a steady pace and when the society is ready.

I wasn't talking about "public transportation. That is completely irreverent at the moment. Of course women should be able to drive and more importantly i do not believe that a woman should be given a man made punishment for driving. Change will not appear unless the majority of women demand their rights.

Driving without a licence is putting other road users in danger. Everyone who wants to drive must take some lessons and pass some sort of test to see whether they are going to drive safely.

Again, the lady was never given the opportunity to get a driver's license or take driving lessons. And just because she was driving without a license doesn't necessarily mean that she is unable to drive in a safe manner. I personally do not know what her driving skills are, but I doubt the court cared enough to consider whether or not she was a good driver. She was not prosecuted for being a bad driver or driving without a license ( women are not give a driver's license to begin with), but simply because she dared to challenge a law which is ludicrous to say that least.

There are other ways to challenge the law. In this case, breaking the law is not acceptable IMO because there was a possibility other road users were at risk of harm.

It's a man made law, which has nothing to do with the safety of other drivers. It's a law that was solely established to discriminate against women.

Sorry I don't understand this..:wa:

Sorry, but I can't understand what you can and can not comprehend.

[GuestFellow]

I wasn't talking about "public transportation. That is completely irreverent at the moment. Of course women should be able to drive and more importantly i do not believe that a woman should be given a man made punishment for driving. Change will not appear unless the majority of women demand their rights.

It is relevant. Saudi women will need to rely on public transportation until the society is ready to allow women to drive. Saudi Arabia should uphold their law. If a women broke the law and lashing was the punishment, she should have received it. A person that breaks the law should be prepared to face the consequences. If they are not going to enforce this law, they need to change it.

Again, the lady was never given the opportunity to get a driver's license or take driving lessons.

She needs to wait then and rely on public transportation until the society is ready to accept women driving.

And just because she was driving without a license doesn't necessarily mean that she is unable to drive in a safe manner.

How do you know this women can drive safely? The only way you can determine whether a person can drive safely is to take a test.

I personally do not know what her driving skills are, but I doubt the court cared enough to consider whether or not she was a good driver. She was not prosecuted for being a bad driver or driving without a license ( women are not give a driver's license to begin with), but simply because she dared to challenge a law which is ludicrous to say that least.

I did not say that the court were considering whether this women meets the standard of a decent driver. I'm saying I personally support this punishment but for a completely different reason. I will not tolerate anyone driving on the road without a licence.

It's a man made law, which has nothing to do with the safety of other drivers. It's a law that was solely established to discriminate against women.

It has a lot to do with safety of other drivers. Women are not allowed to drive. Therefore, they cannot take driving lessons and a test. The purpose of the test is to ensure people can drive safely. If these women start driving without taking a test, they are putting other road users in danger.

Sorry, but I can't understand what you can and can not comprehend.

Well can you please elaborate?

Whether someone is against it or not is not the issue. It is a matter that should be addressed so we could get our priorities straight.

What is the issue you are concerned with? What priorities?

A bit more information would help.

[Crystal]

True Stranger well said. As the only female who posted to this thread I also believe you were the only one who answered best. A lot of the policies made in the world for women today are made by men, women need to take a more active role in what affects their lives whether it is in Saudi Arabia, Europe or America.

[GuestFellow]

^ People in Saudi Arabia should be actively involved in deciding how to govern their country. Not pressure from other countries. Change must come from within.

[Crystal]

I agree with that ^

[User29123]

TrueStranger is right, one thing i don't like is about Saudi is the war to be honest no Muslim country is doing anything to help our brothers and sisters dying. I think only IRAN spreads the word. I should start hacking them lol...

[GuestFellow]

TrueStranger is right, one thing i don't like is about Saudi is the war to be honest no Muslim country is doing anything to help our brothers and sisters dying. I think only IRAN spreads the word. I should start hacking them lol...

Salaam,

No Muslim country can actually stop America and it's allies, unless they all unite and form some sort of an alliance. Iranian leaders make anti-west speeches in order to distract its own people form their domestic problems like high unemployment...

[Rhubarb Tart]

:sl:If Saudi stops supporting USA, they would weaken USA. And USA wouldn't be so powerful would it? Other countries would follow their example. Saudi along with Britain, Israel are the biggest supporters and contributors for the war in Afghanistan and Saudi also agreed with the war in Libya.

Saudi people will NEVER challenge their government neither will British people or american. About oil for domestic use? so how do you suppose the planes landing bombs in Libya move?

I don't agree with lashing, a bit much, a fine would do and since the country treats their women like children why on earth should she take responsibilities like an adult? About other ways, what other way is there?

[Rhubarb Tart]

And do you think license is importance or even tested in Saudi Arabia like their road are safe to begin with? 14 years old boys are allowed to drive with license and cause more road accidents and death there. Lol at driving test, do they teach about speed? If they do, they clearly need to monitor the roads more carefully because I would permanently remove many people driving license for driving like a loon.

Anyhow I agree with you, Saudi people are the only people that have rights to govern their country. AS long as this stupid rule is not copied by other country.

[User29123]

Its true Saudi or British or American people have not challenged their government, but Julian Assange has and many other hackers however some have quickly been shut down and put in Jail and also called "rapist"

[Jedi_Mindset]

If a women could've ride camels, donkeys and horses to in our Nabi(PBUH) time, then they can drive cars to, aslong they've a Mahram with them. ;)

[joyous fairy]

^ Yep.

Also, if you think about it she wasnt actually breaking the license law. She doesnt have the opportunity to follow the law fully (i.e get a license) so she had to do what she could and improvise (i.e drive without a license because it is impossible for her to get one, right?) :p

So say if she drove and then showed the police a woman made license, would she have been given the same punishment? Or say if she had been taught to drive and had for example a British driving license and showed that to them would she be given the same punishment?

[GuestFellow]

Salaam to all...

Also, if you think about it she wasnt actually breaking the license law. She doesnt have the opportunity to follow the law fully (i.e get a license) so she had to do what she could and improvise (i.e drive without a license because it is impossible for her to get one, right?)

That is not an excuse. This women should have not been driving in the first place, since she did not have a driving licence and driving for women is banned. If she had issue with the law, she should have campaigned against the law without breaking any rules.

I have heard of cases where people have been driving without a licence and put other road users (including pedestrians) in danger. Some road users have been killed. It is irresponsible behaviour and people that drive without a licence ought to be punished.

So say if she drove and then showed the police a woman made license, would she have been given the same punishment? Or say if she had been taught to drive and had for example a British driving license and showed that to them would she be given the same punishment?</span>

I assume she would still be punished because all women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

If Saudi stops supporting USA, they would weaken USA. And USA wouldn't be so powerful would it? Other countries would follow their example. Saudi along with Britain, Israel are the biggest supporters and contributors for the war in Afghanistan and Saudi also agreed with the war in Libya.

Saudi Arabia has no choice. If it stopped supporting USA, it will be invaded at some point. Other Muslim leaders countries may not support Saudi Arabia. I doubt Saudi Arabia will take such a risk.

I'm certain US has foreseen that oil will not last forever and it MAY have invested in alternative forms of energy.

Saudi people will NEVER challenge their government neither will British people or american.

How do you know?

About oil for domestic use? so how do you suppose the planes landing bombs in Libya move?

Oil is used for many things, like fueling cars. It is not just used in the military. Like I said, I see nothing wrong with giving oil to countries for domestic usage.

I don't agree with lashing, a bit much, a fine would do and since the country treats their women like children why on earth should she take responsibilities like an adult? About other ways, what other way is there?

Would you argue that America treats women like sex objects? : O

And do you think license is importance or even tested in Saudi Arabia like their road are safe to begin with? 14 years old boys are allowed to drive with license and cause more road accidents and death there. Lol at driving test, do they teach about speed? If they do, they clearly need to monitor the roads more carefully because I would permanently remove many people driving license for driving like a loon.

I'm not sure how they monitor road safety. I believe it is foolish to let people drive independently without a driving licence.

Its true Saudi or British or American people have not challenged their government, but Julian Assange has and many other hackers however some have quickly been shut down and put in Jail and also called "rapist"

It is risky to challenge the government. What happens if no one supports you? What happen to your family? Who will look after them once you are put on trial, convicted and sentenced to prison? There are cases where friends and family are punished too...

Challenging the government is dangerous and extremely risky. Only take such a risk if you can cope with the loss.

[Roasted Cashew]

Saudi Arabia needs to get it's act straight. Women can't drive? That is just plain stupid. About time they change this ridiculous and discriminatory law.

[AabiruSabeel]

Courtesy of The Saudi Gazette

[joyous fairy]

Salaam to all...

That is not an excuse. This women should have not been driving in the first place, since she did not have a driving licence and driving for women is banned. If she had issue with the law, she should have campaigned against the law without breaking any rules.

I have heard of cases where people have been driving without a licence and put other road users (including pedestrians) in danger. Some road users have been killed. It is irresponsible behaviour and people that drive without a licence ought to be punished.

I assume she would still be punished because all women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia

It is risky to challenge the government. What happens if no one supports you? What happen to your family? Who will look after them once you are put on trial, convicted and sentenced to prison? There are cases where friends and family are punished too

Challenging the government is dangerous and extremely risky. Only take such a risk if you can cope with the loss.

Walaikum salam,

I agree that crimes should be punished, however, I dont think we should assume that she didnt know about the risks involved in what she was doing. How many years has it been since men have been driving in SA? In all those years dont you think women have tried getting the law changed? Dont you think that she drove as a last resort in trying to get the law changed? Are there more women than men in SA? Probably. And they would have challenged this law before doing anything dangerous.

Also, you have stated at the end of your post that its dangerous to challenge the government. So how should the women go about protesting laws that they dont agree with? If the government dont listen, they have to resort to other means that would at least get them noticed and this woman did exactly that. She probably was prepared to face the consequences and I think people will forget about this soon enough, not much will change, sadly. Unless more women did something that would bring about change.

Plus, I dont think you can say the country is not ready for women driving. If they are ready to have cars on the street, they should be ready for women drivers. :hmm:

[GuestFellow]

Walaikum salam,

:wa:

How many years has it been since men have been driving in SA? In all those years dont you think women have tried getting the law changed? Dont you think that she drove as a last resort in trying to get the law changed? Are there more women than men in SA? Probably. And they would have challenged this law before doing anything dangerous.

There was a Saudi documentary. Some women agreed to share their views about driving. One said that when society is ready to change, women will drive. Some Saudi women cannot read read/write while others cannot even afford a car from what I have heard on the documentary or I think it was an article (I can't remember). Taking this risk is not justifiable IMO.

Also, you have stated at the end of your post that its dangerous to challenge the government. So how should the women go about protesting laws that they dont agree with? If the government dont listen, they have to resort to other means that would at least get them noticed and this woman did exactly that. She probably was prepared to face the consequences and I think people will forget about this soon enough, not much will change, sadly. Unless more women did something that would bring about change.

That is a different issue. I was responding to this post.

Its true Saudi or British or American people have not challenged their government, but Julian Assange has and many other hackers however some have quickly been shut down and put in Jail and also called "rapist"

Julian Assange did not put other people in danger in the process of revealing important information. He may possibly have legal arguments to support his case.

For this Saudi women, she put other road users in danger. I'm certain she can raise this issue with the monarchy or individuals with significant influence over the monarchy in a polite and respectful manner by writing letters or something along these lines.

Besides, the monarchy from what I have read, have no problem with women driving. It is the society that have problems with women driving. This will only work if the society actually changes. Challenging the government and breaking laws will not have much effect.

Plus, I dont think you can say the country is not ready for women driving. If they are ready to have cars on the street, they should be ready for women drivers. :hmm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWD4KzSpj_g

I do agree that these driving laws do not make sense. If the monarchy is not going to enforce women driving ban, then these laws are useless.