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Roasted Cashew
10-02-2011, 08:28 AM
The death sentence given to Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran is an affront to universal moral values and a disservice to Muslims

In 1948, most of the world's Muslim-majority nations signed up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, including article 18, "the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion" which includes, crucially, the "freedom to change his religion or belief". The then Pakistani foreign minister, Muhammad Zafarullah Khan, wrote: "Belief is a matter of conscience, and conscience cannot be compelled."

Fast-forward to 2011: 14 Muslim-majority nations make conversion away from Islam illegal; several – including Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Sudan – impose the death penalty on those who disbelieve. The self-styled Islamic Republic of Iran has sentenced to death by hanging a Christian pastor, born to Muslim parents, for apostasy. At the time of writing, Youcef Nadarkhani, head of a network of Christian house churches in Iran, is on death row for refusing to recant and convert back to Islam.

The decision to execute Nadarkhani beggars belief. For a start, the sentence handed down by judges in the pastor's home city of Rasht a year ago, and affirmed by the country's supreme court in June, is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but Iran's own constitution. Article 23 is crystal clear: "The investigation of individuals' beliefs is forbidden, and no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief."

Pleas for clemency from the archbishop of Canterbury, the UK's foreign secretary and Amnesty International, among others, have fallen on deaf ears in Tehran. Meanwhile the silence from the world's Muslims – especially the UK's usually voluble Muslim organisations and self-appointed "community leaders" – has been shameful. The irony is that I have yet to come across an ordinary Muslim who agrees that a fellow believer who loses, changes or abandons his or her faith should be hanged. Yet frustratingly few Muslims are willing to speak out against such medieval barbarism. We mumble excuses, avert our eyes.

There is a misguided assumption among many Muslims that such an abhorrent punishment is divinely mandated. It isn't. Classical Muslim jurists wrongly conflated apostasy with treason. The historical fact is that the prophet Muhammad never had anyone executed for apostasy alone. In one well-documented case, when a Bedouin man disowned his decision to convert to Islam and left the city of Medina, the prophet took no action against him, remarking only that, "Medina is like a pair of bellows: it expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good".

Nor does the Qur'an say that a Muslim who apostasises be given any penalty. Freedom of religion is guaranteed by Islam's holy book in the famous verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256). Apostasy is deemed a sin, but the Qur'an repeatedly refers to punishment in the next world, not this one. Take the 137th verse of chapter 4: "Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will never forgive them nor guide them to the Way" (4:137). This verse, which explicitly allows for disbelief, followed by belief, followed once again by disbelief, suggests any punishment is for God to deliver – not judges in Iran, Saudi Arabia or anywhere else.

Interestingly, the judgment in the Nadarkhani case is based not on Qur'anic verses but the fatwas of various ayatollahs. Fatwas, however, differ. For example, the late Grand Ayatollah Hussein Ali Montazeri, a grand ayatollah and one-time heir apparent to Ayatollah Khomeini, argued that the death penalty for apostasy was originally prescribed to punish only political conspiracies against the nascent Islamic community; Montazeri believed Muslims today should be free to convert to another religion.

The decision to execute Nadarkhani, therefore, is both an affront to universal moral values and a disservice to the cause of Islam. There can be no freedom of religion without the freedom to leave or change one's religion. To try to control a person's mind and heart, their thoughts and beliefs, is the ultimate negation of individual freedom. It is totalitarianism, pure and simple.

It also doesn't work. Another late Iranian ayatollah, and high-profile ally of Khomeini, Murtaza Muttahari, once wrote of the sheer pointlessness of any and all measures to compel belief upon a Muslim (or ex-Muslim!), arguing that it was impossible to force anyone to hold the level of rationally inspired faith required by the religion of Islam. "It is not possible to spank a child into solving an arithmetical problem," proclaimed Muttahari. "His mind and thought must be left free in order that he may solve it. The Islamic faith is something of this kind." Muslims have to ask ourselves: Is the God we worship so weak and needy that he requires us to force our fellow humans to worship him? Is our religion so frail and insecure that it cannot tolerate any rejection whatsoever? And why are we silent as an innocent Christian is sentenced to death in the name of Islam? To hang a man for refusing to believe in Islam is theologically and morally unjustifiable; it is not just unIslamic but anti-Islamic.

Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...y-is-not-islam
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Abz2000
10-02-2011, 02:25 PM
You'll find some detailed posts here comment 25 onwards:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...answers-2.html
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Perseveranze
10-02-2011, 04:47 PM
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/

Despite the evidences, people will go with what/how the traditionalists percieved things.
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MSalman
10-05-2011, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
There is a misguided assumption among many Muslims that such an abhorrent punishment is divinely mandated. It isn't. Classical Muslim jurists wrongly conflated apostasy with treason. The historical fact is that the prophet Muhammad never had anyone executed for apostasy alone. In one well-documented case, when a Bedouin man disowned his decision to convert to Islam and left the city of Medina, the prophet took no action against him, remarking only that, "Medina is like a pair of bellows: it expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good".

Nor does the Qur'an say that a Muslim who apostasises be given any penalty. Freedom of religion is guaranteed by Islam's holy book in the famous verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256). Apostasy is deemed a sin, but the Qur'an repeatedly refers to punishment in the next world, not this one. Take the 137th verse of chapter 4: "Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will never forgive them nor guide them to the Way" (4:137). This verse, which explicitly allows for disbelief, followed by belief, followed once again by disbelief, suggests any punishment is for God to deliver – not judges in Iran, Saudi Arabia or anywhere else.
What a load of trash!!!

There is an ijmaa among the scholars from the time of the sahabas that whoever leaves Islam must be killed. And according to many scholars the ijmaa is actually a stronger proof than the Qur'an and the sunnah. Why? Because it means that a whole era of scholars agreed on same meaning.

Our Islam comes from the understanding of our ancestors not defeatists mind Muslims who are ashamed of their deen.
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Jedi_Mindset
10-05-2011, 07:54 PM
Pardon?

The qu'ran clearly forbids to kill a person who leaves islam. Only Allah can judge.
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MSalman
10-05-2011, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
The qu'ran clearly forbids to kill a person who leaves islam. Only Allah can judge.
Please show me where?
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Roasted Cashew
10-05-2011, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MSalman
Please show me where?
Show me where does it say to kill them then?

It is a significant fact that the Book of God does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy. Many Muslims would immediately say, The Qur`an does not tell us everything. We need to go to the Hadith to find guidance on matters not touched by the Qur`an. But while this is true of matters of detail, this is not true of fundamental issues. God knew that while the Qur`an would be preserved faithfully, the authenticity of ahadith will remain subject to doubts in most cases. Therefore, he would make sure that all the basic teachings would be included in the Qur`an while leaving some details to ahadith so that the size of the Qur`anic text remains manageable for memorization. Looked in this way the absence in the Qur`an of any punishment for apostasy becomes very significant.

The punishment for apostasy is not a detail that we can expect God to leave for ahadith, especially if that punishment is death, since taking the life of a person, if done without a just cause, is regarded by the Qur`an as tantamount to killing all human beings (5:32). Even lesser penalties for theft (cutting of hands, 5:38), illicit sexual intercourse (100 lashes, 24:2), and unsubstantiated accusation of adultery (80 lashes, 24.4) were not considered by God as matters of details to be left to the ahadith. Therefore there is no reason why God would consider the more serious penalty of death for a more serious sin of apostasy as a matter of detail to be left to ahadith.

It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.

It is thus a natural conclusion to draw that the absence of any legal penalty for apostasy in the Qur`an means that God never intended any such penalty to become part of Islamic Shari‘ah.
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Jedi_Mindset
10-05-2011, 08:11 PM
Thanks for backing me up bro, since i didn't had proof to show. Islam teaches us to respect the people of the book. (christians and jews) So if you use logic sense..
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MSalman
10-05-2011, 08:26 PM
What a crooked and ridiculous logic. Ok, so you are telling me that Abu Bakr (radiAllahu anhu) didn't have the knowledge of the Qur'an like you? He didn't know that apostasy is not an Islamic law but you, who came 14 centuries later, miraculously discovered it. Remember Abu Bakr declared those, who refused to give zakah, apostates and launched a war against them: among the sahabas it is known as war against apostasy.

How come none of the sahabas said to Abu Bakr: "ya Aba Bakr, don't you know apostasy isn't part of Islam and what are you doing is not Islamic"?

Last time I checked, the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) said follow my companion, specially the 4 khulafa, because they are best of my ummah.
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Roasted Cashew
10-05-2011, 08:35 PM
So are you telling me that the punishment for Apostasy is prescribed in the Qur'an? If so please show me where? During the sahabah's time, apostasy was more like treason or accompanied by treason. So, there is a different context to what happened during the sahabah's time.
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Jalal~
10-05-2011, 09:30 PM
:sl:
Maybe this will end your argument:
Why death is the punishment for Apostasy?
****************************************
people who usually convert away from Islam have little to no understanding of Islam in the first place. I've heard of someone in my city who converted away from Islam because "it was too hard", not because the religion itself was wrong.
So basically, when someone who has a corrupt knowledge about Islam forsakes his religion, and people ask him why he converted, he will give an answer with no basis behind it. So to protect our religion, the hadd punishment for apostasy is to kill the individual. The link explains some conditions on when it is not allowed to kill an apostate, and that is when the person repents from his sin. Remember, Allah forgives all sins.

Some people might argue that these hadd punishments are too severe. Well they might seem harsh at first, but when you think about it, their really not. For example, the hadd punishment for thievery as well all know is to cut off the hand. In America, these people usually go to jail for months or possibly years. But do you think this solitary confinement will stop them from stealing again once they come out of jail? i dont think so, because ive heard of many people getting their revenge on their old victims once they get released from jail. But, if you cut off the persons hand, their more than likely not going to steal again. I mean, seriously, who his dumb enough to risk their other hand?

Hope i was clear, and if i made any mistakes somewhere, please correct me. We are all here to learn about our religion, not argue.
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NobleMuslimUK
10-06-2011, 12:01 AM
Also the hadd punishments for example, hands cut off for stealing are more of a deterrant. I can see more people put off making thievery their profession in saudi, due to the punishment being part of the law.
To say the hadith arent as important as the quran is a clear error. Hadith are also revelation and are just as important. The hadith of sahih bukhari is enough proof that an apostate should be executed in the shariah.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260 :
Narrated by Ikrima

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
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MSalman
10-06-2011, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
So are you telling me that the punishment for Apostasy is prescribed in the Qur'an? If so please show me where?
I didn't say that; there are many ahadith speak about this hadd. However, my point is that the action of Abu Bakr refutes your misinterpretation and misunderstanding about this issue. No one claim to be more knowledgeable than the companions of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam). If they declared war against apostates simply because they apostatized then on what basis you claim that apostasy is not part of Islam!!?

format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
During the sahabah's time, apostasy was more like treason or accompanied by treason. So, there is a different context to what happened during the sahabah's time.
No, there's no difference in context - that's simply in your head. The term "treason" was never coined in Islamic history. It is simply a western term and now some people associate it with apostasy.

Apostasy itself is a "treason" because a Muslim draws a covenant/pledge of allegiance with Islam/Allah when he bears the shahada. So when he leaves Islam he breaks that covenant; hence, apostasy itself is a "treason" if you want to put it in western term.

Tell me what was the "treason" of those who stopped giving zakah other than the fact that they simply refused to pay zakah?

I will respond to your other post later
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Roasted Cashew
10-06-2011, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MSalman
there are many ahadith speak about this hadd
THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part II: An Examination of the Ahadith on the Subject
http://islamicperspectives.com/Punis...asy_Part2.html

Read the above article. It discusses the mentioned Ahadiths in detail. Ahadith in which the Prophet is reported to have prescribed the death penalty for this sin are either unreliable or are to be interpreted differently.

The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow because of the totally different environment which existed back then and now.Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.
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GuestFellow
10-06-2011, 02:42 PM
^ Salaam, I love your name. I love roasted cashews...

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

The topic of apostasy has been covered before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJvA9wZ8Wbg

^ View of apostasy by Bilal Philips.
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Endymion
10-06-2011, 02:58 PM
This brutality is not Islam
:sl:

I can see that some Muslims are more kind and merciful than Arhamur Rahimeen and Rahmatul lil Aalameen,Subhanallah ^o)

It is Islam,my brother.The Deeyn.You need to learn it before making any opinion about Islamic Shriah and if you dont have enough time to do that,ask learned people to help you understand.It is one of the laws in Islam like stoning and others.Read this.

Q)I am currently in a philosophy of religion class and my teacher is an atheist. He claims that under an Islamic state if a born Muslim converts to another religion he is killed. Please tell me if this is true.


A)Praise be to Allaah.

The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islaamic Sharee’ah. The one who leaves Islaam will be asked to repent by the Sharee’ah judge in an Islaamic country; if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kaafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

It is well-known in Sharee’ah that the punishments (hudood) are not carried out on minors, because they have not yet reached the age of responsibility; but in the case of those who have reached the age of responsibility, the punishment (hadd) applies, without a doubt.

The person who knows the truth and believes in it, then turns his back on it, does not deserve to live. The punishment for apostasy is prescribed for the protection of the religion and as a deterrent to anyone who is thinking of leaving Islaam. There is no doubt that such a serious crime must be met with an equally weighty punishment. If the kuffaar do not give people the freedom to cross a red light, how can we give freedom to people to leave Islaam and disbelieve in Allaah when they want to?

It seems that the intention of the teacher mentioned in the question was to shock the students with news of this ruling, in order to mislead them from the way of Allaah. You must respond and explain to him and the other students as much as you can.

May Allaah make you and us bearers of His Message and defenders of His Sharee’ah.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid



If you can find every thing in Quran,then why Allah SWT sent down a Prophet?Why did'nt He SWT just sent down a book so people would read it and understand.The Quran clearly command us to Follow Allah SWT and Follow the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

32. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.
Surah 3. Al 'Imran (The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran)

Please be careful while talking about the deeyn.


format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Pardon?

The qu'ran clearly forbids to kill a person who leaves islam. Only Allah can judge.
Assalam Alekum Respected Brother.

If you want to learn Islam,keep the company of Ulemas.Internet is not the teacher and people's opinion is not Islam.Be clear in every matter.Read the Tafsir from reliable scholars,that will help you understand Quran correctly and read the whole ayah and its tafsir before making any opinion.Quran is not to handle that roughly,its a whole science and you need to give it extra importance to gain the message.

The ayah you are talking about is here.Read carefully.

(5:32) Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth.

And the next ayah is...

(5:33) Those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and go about the earth spreading mischief -indeed their recompense is that they either be done to death, or be crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from the opposite sides or be banished from the land. Such shall be their degradation in this world; and a mighty chastisement lies in store for them in the World to Come.


If you still dont understand "WHO" are those who wage war against Allah SWT and His Messanger PBUH,let me know,i'll post the explanation for you Inshallah.
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Roasted Cashew
10-06-2011, 03:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
^ Salaam, I love your name. I love roasted cashews...
Haha, thanks bro. I love roasted cashews too especially the ones roasted together with honey.
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MSalman
10-06-2011, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM
Part II: An Examination of the Ahadith on the Subject
http://islamicperspectives.com/Punis...asy_Part2.html
I will do a postmortem of this later on the weekend, insha'Allah

format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Read the above article. It discusses the mentioned Ahadiths in detail. Ahadith in which the Prophet is reported to have prescribed the death penalty for this sin are either unreliable or are to be interpreted differently.
not reliable or need to be re-interpreted according to who? So some hot shot, who appeared 14 centuries later, vs Sahabas? Really, the choice is clear for any sane Muslim.

format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow because of the totally different environment which existed back then and now.
I just wanted to hear this from your mouth. One who believes in this need to check his Islam instead of worrying about few rulings in Islam. Allah and His Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) tell us they are yard stick for us and you are saying otherwise. Really, which Islam do you follow?

The Obligation of Following The Pious Salaf

You have following options:

1) Sahabas were wrong but you are right. (this conclusion is most dangerous i.e., how do you know the Qur'an they transmitted to you is correct?)
2) Sahabas were right but you are wrong. (this is haqq but your deviancy doesn't allow you to admit it)
3) Sahabas were right and you are right too. (contradiction)
4) Sahabas were right and you are right too but somehow their situation was not the same. (you need to prove this - mere claims are not going to help you)

format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.
Prove that Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) said that if you are not liar. By Allah, this is the one of the worse lies ever. Ibn Taymiyyah is last person you want to use in your favour. Stop believing in whatever you read on the internet. If he was alive today he would issue a fatawa to lash people like you in public for holding onto deviant belief that the sahabas are not yard stick for us.

And who are Shaltut and Tantawi?
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-06-2011, 07:24 PM
Assalamu Alaikum


I've been pondering over this for a while now. I cant stop wondering what our beloved Sallallaahi alaihi wasallaam would say regarding this.

Would he commend it? Would he avoid it? Would he remain silent about it? Would he denounce it?


What upsets me is none of us knows the answer to this tbh. Was that man ever truelly even a muslim, did he ever associate himself with an islamic state? Has he harmed islam and muslims by leaving?





If a random non-muslim approached me and asked me what I think and feeling regarding this topic I would have to say I simply dont know enough to even comment.
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Jalal~
10-06-2011, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
Read the Tafsir from reliable scholars,
you have any names of good scholars? ive been meaning to read tafsir for smaller surahs.
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Endymion
10-07-2011, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by halalmeat4free
you have any names of good scholars? ive been meaning to read tafsir for smaller surahs.
Assalam Alekum Respected Brother.

The name of Respected Mufti Muhammad Shafi Usmani does not require any introduction.His commentary of Quran "Maarif-ul-Quran (wisdom of Quran) is a must read.The best Tafseer im known of.

Here you can read the whole book online.

http://islamicstudies.info/maarif/


Salam.
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Ali_008
10-26-2011, 07:58 PM
Watch this video from 6:04

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Jedi_Mindset
03-01-2012, 02:13 PM
Ok thanks for explaining brothers and sisters,i was a bit confused about this when i posted that but Jazaak'Allah khair
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Abz2000
03-01-2012, 03:31 PM
The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death
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جوري
03-01-2012, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MSalman
I will do a postmortem of this later on the weekend, insha'Allah
& if I may please make your life easier:
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html


format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death

Indeed, going against the state with what is considered treason is punishable by death in the 'civilized west'
Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg anyone?

:w:
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