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Jalal~
10-03-2011, 10:47 PM
everytime i quote something from the old testament, people say that they dont believe in it. i dont really understand this. Why did people stop following the old testament and start following the new one? from what i know, the new testament consists of sayings from Jesus, while the old one is more of a guide to how you should live your life. someone please explain, i am terribly confused....
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Ramadhan
10-04-2011, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by halalmeat4free
from what i know, the new testament consists of sayings from Jesus,
The new testament consists only few of sayings and actions attributed to Jesus (pbuh), half of new testament are actually the sayings and actions of saul/paul of tarsus.
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Legal_alien
10-16-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by halalmeat4free
everytime i quote something from the old testament, people say that they dont believe in it. i dont really understand this. Why did people stop following the old testament and start following the new one? from what i know, the new testament consists of sayings from Jesus, while the old one is more of a guide to how you should live your life. someone please explain, i am terribly confused....
If you address your question to non-Muslims, then I, an Orthodox Christian, would like to clarify you my acceptance of the Old Testament as the Word of God just as I accept the New Testament as the Word of God too.
The Old Testament actually means the Old Covenant; i.e. the Covenant which God made with the people before the coming of Jesus Christ. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of the mankind, the relationship of God and people during this history, the commandments of God which were given to the chosen people so that they could distinguish good from evil and do that which is good, the prophesies about the Redeemer / Saviour of men whom the Jews called Messiah. In fact you cannot separate the OT from the NT.
I believe that all what God commanded the people through Moses and other prophets are good. However Jesus Christ made the New Covenant with the people and brought perfect commandments, which were not fully revealed in the OT. Therefore I believe that the OT is in this sense a preparatory means for the perfect Law of the NT. If you ask me if I accept the OT as the holy Word of God, then my answer is certainly yes.
I believe in the prophesies about Christ, his first and second comings.
I believe that the OT commandments are from God. However God fully revealed his will through he teaching of Jesus Christ.
I believe that the OT history describe real facts that truly had taken place.

In peace
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Abz2000
10-16-2011, 07:22 PM
the old testament contains parts of the old covenant, but the new testament foretells the new covenant, and there are two covenants, one which was made at sinai - alluding to hagar and the final Prophet who would break down the idols, and would complete the new law:

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:12-13

ask yourself - which book of law is totally memorized to the dot by it's reciters?

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:33

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10;16

now we are aware that the Quran is a book of law which mentions the covenant at the mount and tells the children of Israel to fulfil it:

63. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of The Mount (Sinai) :
(Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."
Quran 2:63

O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you,
and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
Quran 2:40-43

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory:
for these are the two covenants;
the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Galatians 4

it looks to me as if the part about the flesh and the spirit has been added, since the old testament clearly states that the children of Hagar would be blessed.

And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 21

this happened in the desolate valley of Makkah where Abraham (pbuh) left them, and the Muslims still run between safa and marwah where hajar (pbuh) ran seeking a sighting of water.

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
....For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isaiah 54.

and which Prophet brought a book of law after Moses? because it was foretold in Isaiah:

Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
Isaiah 51

the REST? a new Law? do you know the Quran was revealed over 23 years in many different cities?

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, andthere a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 28

it is also clear that they were awaiting a new SPECIFIC long awaited Prophet even in Jesus (pbuh)'s time - and he was different from the Christ.

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him,
Who art thou? 20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

if you go into the commentaries - you will find that "that Prophet" is the Prophet foretold in deuteronomy
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Amigo
10-17-2011, 01:36 AM
Everyone have a heart, one of the reason to 'write divine laws' on heart is to affirm the simplicity of God and his desire to save every man. If it involves copying laws from stones/book, then it is not God saving, but man imposing his own ideology to the world. God does not need to copy while He is the original author. He 'writes' directly. The Holy Spirit is not a man who need secondary aides like book to transmit something to the heart. The Holy Spirit is God and He writes the Word/Truth (not words/ideologies) to the heart that's willing to receive the love of God. God has no need of syllables therefore, we should not even think of people memorizing the commands so they are written on their hearts and minds. When people do this, they are writting on their heart, but not the perfect Word of God, but the imperfect words of men. These imperfects words of men often turn hearts of men into stones.

When God changes hearts of stone into hearts of flesh, it is done. The heart of Flesh knows the Word of God by the very fact of being (and being pure), not as some addition as if the heart was made blank first and waiting for something to be written on it.
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Iconodule
10-17-2011, 01:42 AM
To say it very simply, the New Testament does not make sense without the Old Testament. Old Testament readings, especially the Psalms, are used regularly in our worship. That said, we do not relate to the Old Testament or interpret it in the same way Jews do. When God became man many hidden meanings of the Old Testament were unlocked. A very good example of a Christian reading of the Old Testament is Saint Gregory of Nyssa's The Life of Moses.
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Ramadhan
10-17-2011, 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Everyone have a heart, one of the reason to 'write divine laws' on heart is to affirm the simplicity of God and his desire to save every man. If it involves copying laws from stones/book, then it is not God saving, but man imposing his own ideology to the world. God does not need to copy while He is the original author. He 'writes' directly. The Holy Spirit is not a man who need secondary aides like book to transmit something to the heart. The Holy Spirit is God and He writes the Word/Truth (not words/ideologies) to the heart that's willing to receive the love of God. God has no need of syllables therefore, we should not even think of people memorizing the commands so they are written on their hearts and minds. When people do this, they are writting on their heart, but not the perfect Word of God, but the imperfect words of men. These imperfects words of men often turn hearts of men into stones.

When God changes hearts of stone into hearts of flesh, it is done. The heart of Flesh knows the Word of God by the very fact of being (and being pure), not as some addition as if the heart was made blank first and waiting for something to be written on it.
None of this is backed up by Jesus (pbuh).

The church leaders might have invented this opinion though.
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Ramadhan
10-17-2011, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
To say it very simply, the New Testament does not make sense without the Old Testament.
Incorrect.
New Testament does not make sense WITH Old testament.
Or specifically: Paul's and apostolic letters do not make sense with old testament.
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Abz2000
10-17-2011, 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
If it involves copying laws from stones/book, then it is not God saving, but man imposing his own ideology to the world. God does not need to copy while He is the original author.
Originally Posted by Amigo
God has no need of syllables therefore, we should not even think of people memorizing the commands so they are written on their hearts and minds.
that would be akin to saying that the guidance revealed to Prophets was vanity since God communicates only via direct inspiration to each individual - in the Quran - it is described as following the lusts of one's heart.



Originally Posted by Amigo
The Holy Spirit is not a man who need secondary aides like book to transmit something to the heart. The Holy Spirit is God and He writes the Word/Truth (not words/ideologies) to the heart that's willing to receive the love of God.
the Holy Spirit DEFINITELY came to the Prophets with inspiration and guidance which they wrote down (an example would be the Original Psalms of David and the other Prophecies).

i believe the holy spirit is definitely NOT a man - but it is also distinct from God,
i believe you mention it due to the above reference to the "spirit of truth",
it was not i who used this label to describe a man - it was the author of the gospel of John:

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying,
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:
for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
John 7

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:13

this seems to be a clear explanation of the prophecy in deuteronomy:
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:18-22

Refer again to the above verse in John 16:13

now i will again make it clear to you that it is NOT i who am calling the Prophet (pbuh) the spirit proceeding from God, because the Quran AND hadith tell us that this was the Christ - the author of the book of John is doing this.
i will give you the biblical reference first - and then make this part clear - though it will cause more confusion due to the attribute.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 15:26-27

does he testify?

The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:
“Whoever bears witness that there is none worthy of worship except God, and with no partners,
that Muhammad is His messenger,
that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God;
His Word which He bestowed upon Mary
and a spirit proceeding from Him,
and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Paradise.”


10.
Allah sets forth, for an example to the Disbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot:
they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account,
but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"
11. And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh:
Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
12.
And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity;

and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit
;

and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was of the devout (servants).

(Quran 66-12)

Peace

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Amigo
10-17-2011, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
that would be akin to saying that the guidance revealed to Prophets was vanity since God communicates only via direct inspiration to each individual - in the Quran - it is described as following the lusts of one's heart.
Of all the prophets that I recognize as true, none ever meant a writting to replace him or God while they are not around... The prophets replaced/completed each other in ministry, no one was replaced by a book. So yes, God communicated to them directly, for they did not need to read books or tablets to be necessarly qualified or approved. God is always present, because of this, his ministers have to be always present beings. Prophets by definition are the 'ministers of the presence of God'. They witness to the perpetual presence of God in the world. For this reason, they can never mean books to replace their ministry. Books are always meant for conserving memories. They naturally belong to men who die not to God who is ever alive and ever present.

Originally Posted by abz2000
the Holy Spirit DEFINITELY came to the Prophets with inspiration and guidance which they wrote down (an example would be the Original Psalms of David and the other Prophecies).
copying from the heart to a book is not the same as trying to copy from a book to the heart.
Those who copy from heart to book are sharing with others what is overflowing in their heart. But what is written in the books is not meant to be copied to the heart, for no matter how wonderful they may look, they can never be as perfect as the original inspiration that came from the heart of the one who received the inspiration to begin with. They only help to guide and recognize similar inspirations when other persons receive the same in their own hearts. God is in touch with every heart and a heart that has been touched by God knows that no book can describe perfectly what is revealed in the heart. Even those who write their inspiration into books often affirm that they are trying but they can't perfectly express what they 'feel/saw/received' in their heart.
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Abz2000
10-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Of all the prophets that I recognize as true, none ever meant a writting to replace him or God while they are not around.
Is this not a writing which replaces their presence?

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,

lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
for my strength is made perfect in weakness........
.......And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time;
and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned
, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
2 Corinthians 12 & 13
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alluminati
10-22-2011, 05:52 PM
consider the following: many books were intentionally destroyed or removed from the bible, or lost throughout time.

an example is the following (the first book of adam and eve) which I have not found anywhere in Genesis (at least with the bible I have at home).

CHAPTER I
The crystal sea, God commands Adam, expelled from Eden, to live in the Cave of Treasures.
1 On the third day, God planted the garden in the east of the earth, on the border of the world eastward, beyond which, towards the sun-rising, one finds nothing but water, that encompasses the whole world, and reaches to the borders of heaven.
2 And to the north of the garden there is a sea of water, clear and pure to the taste, unlike anything else; so that, through the clearness thereof, one may look into the depths of the earth.
3 And when a man washes himself in it, he becomes clean of the cleanness thereof, and white of its whiteness — even if he were dark.
4 And God created that sea of his own good pleasure, for He knew what would come of the man He would make; so that after he had left the garden, on account of his transgression, men should be born in the earth. Among them are righteous ones who will die, whose souls God would raise at the last day; when all of them will return to their flesh, bathe in the water of that sea, and repent of their sins.
5 But when God made Adam go out of the garden, He did not place him on the border of it northward. This was so that he and Eve would not be able to go near to the sea of water where they could wash themselves in it, be cleansed from their sins, erase the transgression they had committed, and be no longer reminded of it in the thought of their punishment.
6 As to the southern side of the garden, God did not want Adam to live there either; because, when the wind blew from the north, it would bring him, on that southern side, the delicious smell of the trees of the garden.
7 Wherefore God did not put Adam there. This was so that he would not be able to smell the sweet smell of those trees, forget his transgression, and find consolation for what he had done by taking delight in the smell of the trees and yet not be cleansed from his transgression.
8 Again, also, because God is merciful and of great pity, and governs all things in a way that He alone knows — He made our father Adam live in the western border of the garden, because on that side the earth is very broad.
9 And God commanded him to live there in a cave in a rock — the Cave of Treasures below the garden.

CHAPTER II
Adam and Eve faint when they leave the Garden. God sends His Word to encourage them.
1 But when our father Adam, and Eve, went out of the garden, they walked the ground on their feet, not knowing they were walking.
2 And when they came to the opening of the gate of the garden, and saw the broad earth spread before them, covered with stones large and small, and with sand, they feared and trembled, and fell on their faces, from the fear that came over them; and they were as dead.
3 Because — whereas until this time they had been in the garden land, beautifully planted with all manner of trees — they now saw themselves, in a strange land, which they knew not, and had never seen.
4 And because, when they were in the garden they were filled with the grace of a bright nature, and they had not hearts turned toward earthly things.
5 Therefore God had pity on them; and when He saw them fallen before the gate of the garden, He sent His Word to our father, Adam and Eve, and raised them from their fallen state.
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alluminati
11-01-2011, 12:57 AM
So right now some speculation: the original church set forth by the apostles of Yeshua was either modified or corrupted, especially after Constantine, considering that the CATHOLIC CHURCH existed before the ROMAN-CATHOLIC CHURCH.

An example is with the rites of the Church, which I view as a blasphemy; partaking in the Eucharist and drinking of Wine, both representative of the body and blood, literally of Christ. These are not spiritual things, but worldy and bodily things! The excessive use of pagan symbolism also goes on to prove a point. Plus the use of idols (Virgin Mary, Apostles, Statues of Christ for some, etc..)
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Who Am I?
11-01-2011, 04:16 PM
Even when I was a Christian, I asked other Christians about this. I asked them why they just ignore the OT and concentrated solely on the NT. None of them really had a good answer for me.
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Abz2000
11-02-2011, 03:33 AM
some even ignore the new testament and focus on paul - and that guy was WAAAAYYYYY off from the teachings and practices of Christ (pbuh)
and unfortunately for many of those who choose to follow the teachings of Paul rather than Christ (pbuh), the Old Testament is the antithesis of what Paul taught.

still - he somehow got hold of some prophecies and passed them on to us - probably when he was torturing all those believers.
then he decided The Messiah was not only not an imposter - but God!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23
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Amigo
11-02-2011, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
Is this not a writing which replaces their presence?

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,

lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
for my strength is made perfect in weakness........
.......And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time;
and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
2 Corinthians 12 & 13
This is not a case where you can't go to the author and confirm with him whether he is the author of the writting. Here, if the Corinthians were not sure about the meaning of his letter, they could have gone to him and have him clarify what he was saying.
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Amigo
11-02-2011, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by King of Nines
Even when I was a Christian, I asked other Christians about this. I asked them why they just ignore the OT and concentrated solely on the NT. None of them really had a good answer for me.
Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?
I have never seen one. I actually find many denominatins have a tendancy to focus on the OT than the NT. For this reason they tend to think and reason like jews and muslims.
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Ramadhan
11-02-2011, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?
I have never seen one. I actually find many denominatins have a tendancy to focus on the OT than the NT. For this reason they tend to think and reason like jews and muslims.
You must be the only christian in the world who doesn't ignore the OT.
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MartyrX
11-02-2011, 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?
I have never seen one. I actually find many denominatins have a tendancy to focus on the OT than the NT. For this reason they tend to think and reason like jews and muslims.
I have to agree with Brother Ramadhan. Most of my conversations with Christians have them ignoring the OT. Even in my pre-Islam days it was like that.
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esperanza
11-02-2011, 02:49 PM
idefinitely agree... i know from the pre islam days..some christains follow only the new testament ..like in the good news bible..
my grandmother had a copy of the king james bible unchanged from long time..but in last twenty thirty yeras there are so many modern new changed forms of bible
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Iconodule
11-02-2011, 03:45 PM
The Old Testament is integral to Christian theology and worship. We pray the psalms daily; Old Testament readings and references abound in our service texts; the Fathers wrote loads of commentary on Old Testament books. Everywhere in the Old Testament there are symbols and foreshadowings of Christ, his incarnation, his crucifixion, his resurrection, etc. Many of these are already described in the New Testament- in fact, it is nonsensical for Christians to say they follow the NT only since the OT is integral to understanding it.

If someone is interested in a genuine Christian understanding of the OT a good place to start would be reading St. Gregory of Nyssa's The Life of Moses.
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Iconodule
11-02-2011, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by alluminati
So right now some speculation: the original church set forth by the apostles of Yeshua was either modified or corrupted, especially after Constantine
It is the fashion among some ignorant people to greatly exaggerate the influence of Saint Constantine on Christian theology. The emperor did not formulate any dogma or introduce new rites, but simply facilitated the settling of a dispute between the orthodox and the Arian heretics who taught that Jesus was God's first and greatest creation, but not God. Constantine himself showed signs of wavering in his life and often lent support to Arians; nevertheless the Arian party was defeated by the grace of God.

The Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon of scriptures.

An example is with the rites of the Church, which I view as a blasphemy; partaking in the Eucharist and drinking of Wine, both representative of the body and blood, literally of Christ. These are not spiritual things, but worldy and bodily things!
The incarnation of God shows that even lowly matter can be deified when God assumes a body. The eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and is both material and spiritual.

This was understood long before Constantine and Christ himself proclaimed this truth as it is recorded in the Gospel of Saint John.
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جوري
11-02-2011, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
The incarnation of God shows that even lowly matter can be deified when God assumes a body. The eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and is both material and spiritual.

This was understood long before Constantine and Christ himself proclaimed this truth as it is recorded in the Gospel of Saint John.
I don't understand how anyone can remain Christian in this modern day and age really. I was just reading about Jesus (PBUH) escaped to Aswan in Egypt frightened escaping his persecutors who have spent a life time persecuting him, the same folks of now a days who persecute others but call themselves Christians.. Making him a God really did make sense to folks who believed in Zeus and Hercules and were out to oppose any monotheistic theology and the only way for them to adopt this Abrahamic faith was to turn it into the idolatry and even bigotry that they'd known all along..

the same way modern Day U.S & Israel persecute the true Semites while claiming everyone else is an anti-Semite.. ignorant, bigoted and intolerant bunch, the same who persecuted him then are the same who worship him now.. They didn't get it then and they don't get it now!

It defies the being of God, to be a man.. and not just any man, a frightened man, a man who prays for safety and exoneration. A man who ate, searched for food with his mother, a man who was so poor the sky was his blanket and the earth his bed.. Jesus PBUH is innocent from what you ascribe to him and may God's wrath be upon those who ascribe partners unto him.. Glory be to him creator of heaven and earth..



اللَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاءَ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاو ;َاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

Allahu la ilaha illa Huwa, Al-Haiyul-Qaiyum La ta'khudhuhu sinatun wa la nawm, lahu ma fis-samawati wa ma fil-'ard Man dhal-ladhi yashfa'u 'indahu illa bi-idhnihi Ya'lamu ma baina aidihim wa ma khalfahum, wa la yuhituna bi shai'im-min 'ilmihi illa bima sha'a Wasi'a kursiyuhus-samawati wal ard, wa la ya'uduhu hifdhuhuma Wa Huwal 'Aliyul-Adheem

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)."
[Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]


best,
Reply

Abz2000
11-02-2011, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?
it is a fact that paul changed the teaching - and that he made vain the law which Christ (pbuh) followed:


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 5:2-6

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

New Covenant Theology sees all Old Covenant laws as "cancelled" or "abrogated" in favor of the law of Christ or the New Testament. Some new covenant theologians also believe the Old Covenant laws were reinstituted under the New Covenant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrogation_of_Old_Covenant_laws

it is a fact that Christ (pbuh) was a follower of the law and that he was circumcised, and that he did observe the sabbath on saturday,
and i think even paul observed saturday,
so the teachings of Paulare not the law of christ.
Reply

Iconodule
11-02-2011, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
It defies the being of God, to be a man.. and not just any man, a frightened man, a man who prays for safety and exoneration. A man who ate, searched for food with his mother, a man who was so poor the sky was his blanket and the earth his bed..
It is true, by his abundant mercy and love for mankind, God became a mere man to save mankind. He humbled himself and took the form of a little child. He suffered hunger, thirst, the fear of death, all of these things, and yet he also remained the almighty, all-knowing God. Does it seem strange? Yes it does. To mere human reasoning it is nonsensical- foolishness to the pagans, a stumbling block to the Jews, as Saint Paul said. And yet it is the truth, so far is God beyond our human reasoning. Because the true God is not a philosophical abstraction but a Person whose ways are infinitely beyond the grasp of philosophers, even if those philosophers claim the title of theologians. Glory to God who did not despise us but voluntarily endured death for our sake, and was resurrected to ensure the resurrection for all men.

The "gods" of the pagans either acted like sinful men (murderers, fornicators, etc.), as in the myths, or they were so rarefied that they were mere philosophical abstraction, like in the philosophers. Plato's "god" would never deign to clothe itself in corruptible matter; Zeus or Hercules would never voluntarily submit to humiliating and painful death on behalf of all humanity, and the utterly sublime teaching of the Sermon on the Mount was completely beyond them.

The Christian God is totally different.
Reply

جوري
11-02-2011, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
The Christian God is totally different.
different he's indeed from the God of Abraham & Moses and Enoch and John and Jesus etc. etc.
God didn't to 'humble' himself before to humble himself after.. It is nonsense and not befitting of God!

best,
Reply

Abz2000
11-02-2011, 06:38 PM
To mere human reasoning it is nonsensical- foolishness to the pagans, a stumbling block to the Jews, as Saint Paul said. And yet it is the truth, so far is God beyond our human reasoning.
it was a pagan roman belief that their leaders were gods and sons of gods,
it was NOT a jewish belief.
the term son of god in jewish tradition is used just to refer to pious people - not literal sons of God
Reply

Crystal
11-02-2011, 06:55 PM
I'd be more intrigued to know how many christians believe in the bible not the old testament. As a former Christian ( Catholic) I don't think the general everyday people even know the difference between the old and new testament. Having said that when I used to attend catholic church the priest covered stuff from the old testament and new testament and all through by schooling years in a catholic school we covered stuff from the old testament and new testament as well.
Reply

Iconodule
11-02-2011, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by abz2000
it was a pagan roman belief that their leaders were gods and sons of gods,
it was NOT a jewish belief.
the term son of god in jewish tradition is used just to refer to pious people - not literal sons of God
There is only one actual Son of God, one incarnation- Jesus Christ- so of course the Jews did not have a previous teaching on this question, except in hints which can be found throughout the Old Testament. Christ's humble nature, his voluntary suffering, and his sublime teaching all show that he is nothing like the "gods" of the pagans.

All the early Christian leaders were Jews so of course the incarnation is a Jewish belief.
Reply

Who Am I?
11-02-2011, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Who are the Christians who ignore the OT?
I have never seen one. I actually find many denominatins have a tendancy to focus on the OT than the NT. For this reason they tend to think and reason like jews and muslims.
:sl:

Most churches where I live concentrate on the New Testament and very rarely if ever refer to the Old Testment in matters of faith. The OT is the stuff of children's Bible school where they learn stories about all of the prophets, but the adults focus almost solely on the NT when applying Scripture to daily life.

To me that doesn't seem right. You can't just take half of the Bible and forget the other half. You either take it all or none.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-02-2011, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
The Old Testament is integral to Christian theology and worship. We pray the psalms daily; Old Testament readings and references abound in our service texts; the Fathers wrote loads of commentary on Old Testament books. Everywhere in the Old Testament there are symbols and foreshadowings of Christ, his incarnation, his crucifixion, his resurrection, etc. Many of these are already described in the New Testament- in fact, it is nonsensical for Christians to say they follow the NT only since the OT is integral to understanding it.
What you are saying above is undeniable proof that christians ignore the OT:
They only use the OT as history book and as sources for singing.
Meanwhile, the clear, most important commands, warnings and punishments from God are not only totally ignored but completely broken.
For example: sabbath on saturday, no eating swine, God is one and no ascribing partner to Him, do not make images and do not bow to them, etc etc..
Reply

Ramadhan
11-02-2011, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
It is true, by his abundant mercy and love for mankind, God became a mere man to save mankind. He humbled himself and took the form of a little child.
so you are claiming that God is the most merciful, but not the most powerful.

Therein lies (one of) the fallacy of christianity.
Reply

Insaanah
11-02-2011, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
It is true, by his abundant mercy and love for mankind, God became a mere man to save mankind
"And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving." (11:19)

No need for God to become a man, and Glorified and Exalted be He above that. He forgives at will all who repent sincerely.

Originally Posted by Iconodule
He humbled himself and took the form of a little child. He suffered hunger, thirst, the fear of death, all of these things, and yet he also remained the almighty, all-knowing God.
A contradiction in terms. A "god" who experiences helplessness, hunger, thirst and fear is not God.

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should take as a protector, Creator of the heavens and the earth, while it is He who feeds and is not fed?" Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to be the first [among you] who submit [to Allah]. Do not ever be of the polytheists. " (6:14)

Originally Posted by Iconodule
There is only one actual Son of God
And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." (17:111)

Originally Posted by Iconodule
Glory to God who did not despise us but voluntarily endured death for our sake, and was resurrected to ensure the resurrection for all men.
And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and glorify His praise. And sufficient is He to be, with the sins of His servants, Acquainted. (Translation of Qur'an 25:58)

And say, "Praise to Allah, who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." (17:11)

Exalted is Allah above what they describe. (37:159)

A god that has to die and resurrect himself in order to resurrect others, cannot be God.

Allah - there is no deity except Him. He will surely assemble you for [account on] the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. And who is more truthful than Allah in statement?. (4:87)

How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned. (2:28)

It is as simple as that.

Glory be to Allah alone, that's one of the endless things I love about Islam, the concepts are so simple and logical. The truth resonates with the heart and mind.
Reply

Abz2000
11-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Iconodule - from your posts on the "where does God fit in" thread, i believe you are a sincere seeker and defender of truth, please let us look objectively and see if Christ (pbuh) was Almighty God or a servant of God:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
isaiah 53:11

God's servant - not God as a servant - one is a servant of Another

And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 11:42

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The servant is not greater than his lord;
neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
John 13:16

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

it clearly shows that he (pbuh) was a servant, and that he goes through a furnace of affliction so people can wake up:

Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Isaiah 48:10-11
Reply

Amigo
11-03-2011, 08:00 AM
To be precise; OT is not a book or a collection of books or documents.
It is a covenant through Moses.

Reading reports and documentations about something does not equal understanding it. You can read and read and read and still be in ignorance of the hiden thing in the writtings. Entering a library and reading all the books does not guaranty that you will get the main point the collector (builder of the library) meant to 'remember'.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-03-2011, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
OT is not a book or a collection of books or documents.
It is a covenant through Moses.
And Jesus (pbuh) followed Moses' Law, he was sent to the lost sheep Israel to get them back to Mosaic laws, and he was sent not to abolish it but to fulfill it
(but of course christians changed the definition of the word "fulfill" to "destroy")

Originally Posted by Amigo
Reading reports and documentations about something does not equal understanding it. You can read and read and read and still be in ignorance of the hiden thing in the writtings.
And apparently reading bible does not make you understand it in the slightest bit (does not even understand the sentences and commands with clearest meanings, let alone any hidden thing).
You can read and read and read and still be ignorance of the literal writings of the bible.
Nor reading bible makes you follow God's commandments.
Reply

Hiroshi
11-08-2011, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

And Jesus (pbuh) followed Moses' Law, he was sent to the lost sheep Israel to get them back to Mosaic laws, and he was sent not to abolish it but to fulfill it
(but of course christians changed the definition of the word "fulfill" to "destroy")
The Mosaic Law was a list of requirements that the Jews had to fulfill in order to gain everlasting life.

Leviticus 18:5 says: "And you must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions, which if a man will do, he must also live by means of them."

This phrase did not mean that a Jew must keep the law while he lived. Rather it meant that he would live forever if he kept the law.

However no Jew (with the exception of Jesus) could ever perfectly keep the law. So all others who tried to keep the law only died. It was as if they owed a huge debt that they could not repay however hard they tried. How then could they fulfill the law? They could not. But Jesus could fulfill the law on their behalf. By his sinless condition and perfect sacrifice Jesus fulfilled every requirement of the law and made everlasting life possible for the Jews and also all mankind. There was then no longer any necessity to keep the Mosaic Law.

Jesus did not destroy the law. He fulfilled it on behalf of others who could not perfectly do so themselves.
Reply

MartyrX
11-08-2011, 02:36 PM
If the Old Testament is no longer valid, then neither are the prophecies. You can't say we read the OT for the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) and quote the scripture that "proves" your point, then turn around and say it's not valid.

Second thing is the whole Jesus died for everyone's sins. This is the biggest cop-out ever. Say some man kills a bunch of children and years later he accepts Jesus, then he's good? That's what I've been told. That is what I was preached in Sunday school.
Reply

Iconodule
11-08-2011, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by JeffX
If the Old Testament is no longer valid, then neither are the prophecies. You can't say we read the OT for the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) and quote the scripture that "proves" your point, then turn around and say it's not valid.
I have to agree that the assertion that the Old Testament law was "abolished" is false and contrary to Christ's own words.

Many of the laws governing ritual purity or dietary restrictions were, however, superseded. The Old Testament remains valid however, and for much more than just nice stories about God's power. It's especially clear that Christ taught the Old Testament moral commandments to remain valid. The Old Testament as a whole is ultimately about Christ and to fully understand him it is important to study both testaments.

Say some man kills a bunch of children and years later he accepts Jesus, then he's good? That's what I've been told. That is what I was preached in Sunday school.
I'm sorry you were subjected to this nonsense. There are some Protestant sects teaching that one can be instantly saved just by expressing faith in Jesus, without any fundamental change of lifestyle or mindset. Some even seem to teach that saying a particular prayer is enough to magically save someone- "once saved, always saved." This is not genuine Christian teaching.

All sins can be forgiven but there must be genuine repentance and, as Saint James said, "faith without works is dead." A Christian must continue to struggle against his passions and do good works throughout his life. The moral commandments of the Old Testament law as well as the New Testament are important for all Christians.

Christ did die (and resurrect) to liberate man from sin and death- he gives man the grace to be purified and made holy, but this is conditional on man's willing cooperation with God, which includes prayer, fasting, good works, and partaking of the Holy Mysteries, as well as correct faith (Orthodoxy).
Reply

truthseeker63
11-08-2011, 11:22 PM
Christians must obey the Old Testament according to their Bible.
Reply

Amigo
11-09-2011, 07:20 AM
I agree with most of what Hiroshi and Iconodule said.
I will add these points.
  • What Jesus and the New Testament mean by the 'Law' is the perfect Law of God which God delivers himself directly. Not laws which were corrupt because they passed through sinful human intermediaries. All other laws were basically man-made laws which God allowed because of the hardness of the people as Jesus pointed out. So the law which Jesus eliminates is not the the Law of Sinai, but imperfect man-made laws (remarkably Deuteronomy: 'second' law). This was given by Moses on the plains of Moab after the second generation had just committed a second apostasy. Here Israel is in probational state where God act as Master and make Israelites as slaves, no longer as 'first -born' son they were on Sinai. These laws will govern them until the time of the Messaiah. By then, through numereous consequences of their sins, including exiles, they will understand that they need to return to the perfect Law (of Sinai) and since it is as hard as impossible to keep, they need Grace in order to keep it.

  • "Law was given so that Grace may be sought, and Grace was given so that Law may be kept" Church. Jesus came full of grace and only he can keep the Law and give power to keep it. The power to keep the law is the Grace of God required to keep it. Therefore man must pray with all his heart in order to receive the grace necessary to keep the Law. This is the test of his love for God and his desire to worship Him truly. Those who are satisfied with imperfect laws like Israelites under Levites (Leviticus) and Deuteronomy, reveal their lack of full commitment to God's holy laws, and therefore corresponding imperfections remains with them.

  • Therefore sins are not just forgive by a simple magical heartless prayer. One must have true contrition: acknowledg the perfect law, his incapacity to keep it by his own effort, and prayful desire to receive God grace in order to keep the law and live. This is the attitudes which welcomes Jesus in ones' own heart and life and the beginning of integration into the Body of Christ where life is.
Reply

MartyrX
11-09-2011, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
I have to agree that the assertion that the Old Testament law was "abolished" is false and contrary to Christ's own words.

Many of the laws governing ritual purity or dietary restrictions were, however, superseded. The Old Testament remains valid however, and for much more than just nice stories about God's power. It's especially clear that Christ taught the Old Testament moral commandments to remain valid. The Old Testament as a whole is ultimately about Christ and to fully understand him it is important to study both testaments.



I'm sorry you were subjected to this nonsense. There are some Protestant sects teaching that one can be instantly saved just by expressing faith in Jesus, without any fundamental change of lifestyle or mindset. Some even seem to teach that saying a particular prayer is enough to magically save someone- "once saved, always saved." This is not genuine Christian teaching.

All sins can be forgiven but there must be genuine repentance and, as Saint James said, "faith without works is dead." A Christian must continue to struggle against his passions and do good works throughout his life. The moral commandments of the Old Testament law as well as the New Testament are important for all Christians.

Christ did die (and resurrect) to liberate man from sin and death- he gives man the grace to be purified and made holy, but this is conditional on man's willing cooperation with God, which includes prayer, fasting, good works, and partaking of the Holy Mysteries, as well as correct faith (Orthodoxy).
I see where you're coming from. I had a very lengthy discussion recently with a devout Christian who was telling that she disregarded the OT, except where it fit in with her view of Jesus (pbuh). The laws, and everything.

As far as believing Jesus and you're saved, we might have to agree to disagree. I see where you're coming from, but it's not something I can believe in and ever being raised as a Christian I always struggled with it. I've always felt your deeds will be what you answer for once everything is said and done. No matter what you believe in. I know some sects of Christianity believe you take Jesus (pbuh) as your savior and you're saved or you have to believe in him and be serious about repentance to be forgiven. I don't believe that. I believe that you can be sorry for your sins and want to better yourself. However I think you need to keep doing good and striving to please Allah to be blessed with Paradise.
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truthseeker63
11-13-2011, 02:45 AM
Yes they do.
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May Ayob
11-15-2011, 08:58 AM
Peace be to all

Just a question: Do Christians follow the law of the Bible? for example: not having any pre-marriage relationships?And if the Bible commands that why don't they observe it?

Thank you- peace
Reply

Iconodule
11-15-2011, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by May Ayob
Peace be to all

Just a question: Do Christians follow the law of the Bible? for example: not having any pre-marriage relationships?
Premarital sex and cohabitation are very plainly proscribed and considered sinful.

And if the Bible commands that why don't they observe it?
Why do some Muslims drink alcohol?
Reply

May Ayob
11-17-2011, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Why do some Muslims drink alcohol?
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Premarital sex and cohabitation are very plainly proscribed and considered sinful.
Thank you for your answer,Iwas just wondering. I hope my question didn't bother you I just wanted to know.

Peace.
Reply

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