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Iconodule
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
I want to clarify the meaning and significance of icons in Christianity, with the hope that this will promote mutual understanding. I am not intending to begin a polemical thread, just to clarify what Orthodox Christians actually believe and practice. If, after reading my post, some still feel that icons are idolatrous or contrary to scripture they are of course free to make those arguments here but I will not defend against them, as I do not think polemics, especially online ones, are typically useful. On the other hand, sincere questions for the purpose of clarification I will gladly answer.

I am not a theologian so I will not pretend that my presentation without flaws or the most authoritative.

In the 8th century the iconoclast movement was launched in the Byzantine empire, which argued that icons were idolatrous. Among other reasons, they argued that icons were anathema because they violated the second commandment:

You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow to them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers on the children of the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me.
The iconoclasts interpreted this commandment as an utter prohibition against any depictions of created things; many Protestants today make the same argument. Other important points they made included the impossibility of depicting the invisible God and the supposed limitation of icons to only depicting Christ's human nature or else confusing his human and divine natures.

The Orthodox defenders of icons, such as St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore the Studite, made the following points:

1. The second commandment could not possibly be a blanket prohibition of images, since God commanded the Holy Prophet Moses to create the golden cherubim on the Ark as well as images of cherubim embroidered in the veil protecting the Holy of Holies. Moses was likewise commanded to make a brazen image of a serpent to cure the Israelites of snake venom. The Prophet and King Solomon also included images of angels, as well as bulls and other creatures, when he built the Temple in Jerusalem, and this was blessed by God.

2. The second commandment is really concerned with offering the worship due to God to things which are not God ("for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God"). The icon given to icons is relative and directed ultimately toward the one true God. We honor the depiction only for the sake of Him whom it depicts; wood and paint are not objects of worship. We honor the saints and their relics likewise as reflections of God's glory, recognizing that no one but God is holy in himself; all holiness comes from God and reflects God's glory. Saints and relics are miracle-working only virtue of God's power working through them.

3. With the incarnation of Christ, the invisible God became truly human and therefore visible and depictable. Since Jesus Christ is one person, perfect God and perfect man, images of Christ are truly images of God incarnate. To deny icons is to deny the oneness of Christ and the reality of His incarnation.

4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it; the created is saturated with God's energies and, especially since the incarnation, where God took on a human body of matter, matter can be blessed and permeated with holiness. We can observe God's glory in the creation in general, as well as in particular holy places and relics, and most of all in the mysteries or sacraments of the Church. Again, this does not permit worship of any material thing but honoring the holiness of God which works through matter.
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Insaanah
10-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Peace,

Glory be to Allah alone.

Originally Posted by Iconodule
We honor the depiction only for the sake of Him whom it depicts; wood and paint are not objects of worship. We honor the saints and their relics likewise as reflections of God's glory, recognizing that no one but God is holy in himself; all holiness comes from God and reflects God's glory. Saints and relics are miracle-working only virtue of God's power working through them.

3. With the incarnation of Christ, the invisible God became truly human and therefore visible and depictable. Since Jesus Christ is one person, perfect God and perfect man, images of Christ are truly images of God incarnate. To deny icons is to deny the oneness of Christ and the reality of His incarnation.

4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it; the created is saturated with God's energies and, especially since the incarnation, where God took on a human body of matter, matter can be blessed and permeated with holiness. We can observe God's glory in the creation in general, as well as in particular holy places and relics, and most of all in the mysteries or sacraments of the Church. Again, this does not permit worship of any material thing but honoring the holiness of God which works through matter.
Much of this sounds familiar, as Hindus have the same beliefs regarding their idols. They don't believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) but have similar beliefs about God being incarnated in people, and idols.

Peace.
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Ramadhan
10-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
1. The second commandment could not possibly be a blanket prohibition of images, since God commanded the Holy Prophet Moses to create the golden cherubim on the Ark as well as images of cherubim embroidered in the veil protecting the Holy of Holies. Moses was likewise commanded to make a brazen image of a serpent to cure the Israelites of snake venom. The Prophet and King Solomon also included images of angels, as well as bulls and other creatures, when he built the Temple in Jerusalem, and this was blessed by Go
So, this is not a blanket statement?

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth

It sounds to me as blanket as they come.
It's either God in the OT was a wishy washy God who strictly commanded one thing and then next said "oh, but I didn't really mean it",
or there must be somebody wrote things in the OT and claimed they were from God and hence makes everything seems so contradictory in bible.
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Amigo
10-13-2011, 09:38 AM
It all comes down to language, and to people's understandig of what 'worship' means. It is a matter of maturity.

Until certain things are fulflilled y = ax + b will always be absurdity to the arrogant child and mystery to the ignorant one.

The Bible contains and considers with respect the fullness of humanity from its embryonic stage to its maturity (fullness of time).
Diapers are commanded on kids for a reason. The focus is not on diapers, but on the reason.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
It all comes down to language, and to people's understandig of what 'worship' means. It is a matter of maturity.
I agree.

But there is not one single "worship" word written in the Deuteronomy 5:8 and Exodus 20:4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

But here's images that you can find in churches:





And thanks to this now we know God is actually an mixture of italian looking man with blonde hair, an old guy with gray hair and beard and a white dove:





And here in Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them

But here's what christians actually do:












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Iconodule
10-16-2011, 02:34 AM
Tomorrow we in the Orthodox Church who are on the new calendar commemorate the 7th Ecumenical Council which defended the holy icons. You can read about it here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council Glory to God.
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Iconodule
10-16-2011, 02:47 AM
A beautiful church interior in Washington D.C.

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Dagless
10-16-2011, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
4. God is utterly transcendent from His creation but also fully immanent in it
Although I've heard this before, I don't think it's something people outside of Christianity (and maybe not even those in it) can understand. Thank you for explaining your point of view though, I enjoyed reading it.
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Amigo
10-16-2011, 03:04 AM
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith. All those images are very beautiful.
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'. Afterall, God made man, he did not make books. This reminds me of a great teaching called Theology of the Body. It illustrates how everything man needs to know about himself and God, is already written on his very body.
So no man is indeed without any excuse in matter of salvation, for every man has a body and God signed his Word on his very body.
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Predator
10-16-2011, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith. All those images are very beautiful.
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'. Afterall, God made man, he did not make books. This reminds me of a great teaching called Theology of the Body. It illustrates how everything man needs to know about himself and God, is already written on his very body.
So no man is indeed without any excuse in matter of salvation, for every man has a body and God signed his Word on his very body.
You should burn those images.

Also in (Deuteronomy 7:25) God orderd the people to burn idols and never use them in worship

(Deuteronomy 7:25)
The images of their gods you are to burn in the fire. Do not covet the silver and gold on them, and do not take it for yourselves, or you will be ensnared by it, for it is detestable to the LORD your God. Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction. Regard it as vile and utterly detest it, for it is set apart for destruction.

Use of idols (humans or objects) is the wrong way to worship the Almighty GOD: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21).


Jesus who worshiped God almighty in Luke 5:16 and Matthew 26:39 and never used images in worship.

The Bible considers GOD Almighty as a "spirit" and He must be worshiped with spirit and truth: "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24).
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Iconodule
10-16-2011, 04:00 AM
Our father among the saints, John of Damascus
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Insaanah
10-16-2011, 03:45 PM
Current day Christianity seems to be very similar to Hinduism. They both believe in a trinity, both kneel in front of statues and pictures of various beings to worship them and ask their needs(still believing that they are worshipping the one god), both believe god was incarnated in man, both believe that god in his incarnation/s was born of a woman, was a helpless baby etc, both believe god in some of his incarnations died, etc etc.

If Jesus (peace be upon him) came to earth today, he would not recognise current day Christians as his true followers.

Originally Posted by Amigo
Early people learned Christianity through icons and images on stained glasses windows of the churches.
Originally Posted by Amigo
I think, images are more effective in transmitting the faith than writtings.They are the universal language that everyone can understand if they 'listen'.
Everyone can understand that God is One, without any sons and without any associates whatsover in His Divinity. But when you associate others in His exclusive Divinity, then you need to resort to pictures, because 3=1 doesn't sit naturally with the heart and mind. The truth resonates with the heart, without pictures.

Originally Posted by Amigo
Any medium is acceptable to Christianity for sharing and celebrating the Faith.
Even if that goes clearly against Bible commandments, as long as you say you love God.
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Abz2000
10-16-2011, 03:46 PM
Firstly I would start by agreeing with you that some type of decorative images were built on the orders of prophet Solomon (pbuh) and as can be observed from the description of the temple.

يَعمَلونَ لَهُ ما يَشاءُ مِن مَحٰريبَ وَتَمٰثيلَ وَجِفانٍ كَالجَوابِ وَقُدورٍ راسِيٰتٍ ۚ اعمَلوا ءالَ داوۥدَ شُكرًا ۚ وَقَليلٌ مِن عِبادِىَ الشَّكورُ
They worked for him as he desired (making) Arches, Images, Basins as large as Reservoirs, and (cooking) Cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye sons of David with thanks! But few of My servants are grateful!"
Quran 34:13

I have tried to grapple with the topic and have found it difficult to understand,
However - do acknowledge that certain exceptions may have been made in terms of decoration purposes or for testing the children of Israel (God knows why) - but nowhere in the old or new testaments do we find that the prophets or their followers bowed down to and worshipped images without stirring the wrath of God.
Why would you then bow down to them after the prophets?
Especially seeing that other men told you to.

Did you know that that's how idolatry came to mecca after abraham and Ishmael (pbut)?
Amr bin luhay (the leader of the tribe had gone travelling and came across people devoted to them, asked them, they said: they are intermediaries between us and God, so he took a big one with him and set it up at the sanctuary built by Abraham and Ishmael, slowly the reverence for the idols increased and the reverence for the commandments of God and teachings of the prophets decreased, to the extent where when the prophet (pbuh) came, they were amused at the talk of an invisible God who was all powerful and one who talks to poor people at that.
Basically they saw themselves above their idols - misled the people - and fancied themselves as gods who had the power to ultimately legislate.
Just like pharaoh.

It seems to be a process that is very similar through the ages,

here's an example:

And God knows best.
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Ramadhan
10-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Deuteronomy 5:8 and Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

But christians make gods dolls, in all sizes and colors and state of undress so you can worship your gods doll at your own home





And don't forget to worship a photo of your own favorite pope so he can take you to heaven with him:

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Iconodule
10-17-2011, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
Firstly I would start by agreeing with you that some type of decorative images were built on the orders of prophet Solomon (pbuh) and as can be observed from the description of the temple.

يَعمَلونَ لَهُ ما يَشاءُ مِن مَحٰريبَ وَتَمٰثيلَ وَجِفانٍ كَالجَوابِ وَقُدورٍ راسِيٰتٍ ۚ اعمَلوا ءالَ داوۥدَ شُكرًا ۚ وَقَليلٌ مِن عِبادِىَ الشَّكورُ
They worked for him as he desired (making) Arches, Images, Basins as large as Reservoirs, and (cooking) Cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye sons of David with thanks! But few of My servants are grateful!"
Quran 34:13

I have tried to grapple with the topic and have found it difficult to understand,
However - do acknowledge that certain exceptions may have been made in terms of decoration purposes or for testing the children of Israel (God knows why) - but nowhere in the old or new testaments do we find that the prophets or their followers bowed down to and worshipped images without stirring the wrath of God.
This explanation may be helpful:

10. OK, granted that there are Icons of sorts in Scripture, but where were the Israelites told that they should venerate them?

The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: "bow before the footstool of His feet...." We should note first of all that the word for "bow" here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5, when we are told to not bow to idols.
And what is the "footstool of His feet"? In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who "dwells between the Cherubim" (99:1), and it ends with a call to "bow to His holy hill"—which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant. This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement "We will go into His tabernacles..." and is followed by the statement "Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength."
Interestingly, this phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church, and the connection is not accidental—because on the Ark, between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat, upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15).
Source: The Icon FAQ
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Iconodule
10-17-2011, 01:18 AM
Ramadhan- I am not a Roman Catholic; I am not under the Pope and I do not venerate the Pope or any image of him. I imagine I can find practices by certain Sufis, Shiites, etc. which you would consider improper and I would not assume that all Muslims engage in these practices.

Here is a beautiful icon of the Mother of God:
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Amigo
10-17-2011, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Even if that goes clearly against Bible commandments, as long as you say you love God.
One needs love to understand the Bible commandements....

You can not understand anyting, any scripture or commandment without love in the heart. True love is the centre of everything. God is true love. Love sanctifies and purify everything. Laws and commandment were given for the sake of love. It is all about loving truly and appropriately. Worship is a matter of love. You don't seem to understand what 'idol' means. 'Idol' means the wrong/desordered object of love. Love goes through specific channels depending on what it is directed to. You don't love your father and your husband the same way. You don't love your mother, sister, brother, stranger, classmates, wife, husband, car, dog, cat the same way. For each of this, like the veins of the heart, there is a special channel appropriate for this. There is also a special channel reserved only for God. Now, when this channel is used for other things other than God, this thing is called an idol.
This means that your husband can be your idol if you love him the love that is supposed to be only for God. Your cat, car, house, country, religion, book, etc....all these can be your idols if you misplace them in your heart.

True worship means proper ordering of things in one's heart and life.
Now, status and pictures are things that people make because they have special attachement to whatever they represent. For this reason, both the images and what they represent can be idols if they occupy the place which is supposed to belong only to God. When people don't know God, they will inevitably put things in his place and therefore worship idols. When people know and love God truly, they can not worship idols. It is impossible, it is the differance between being in the light and being in the darkness.

When people don't know God, they are like people in darkness. They don't see; therefore, many things are forbidden to them to keep them safe. It may be forbidden them to run, or jumb or move things around, because they can hurt each other and themselves.

When people know and love God, they are like people in the light. You can't stumble when you are in the light. You can run, you can jump, you can do many thing which is forbidden to people in darkness.

It is the same with Christ. Jesus Christ is the Light of the World, those who are with him do not walk in the darkness. So many things which were too dangereous for people before/without Him, are not dangereous for people who are with Him.

When the heart is better ordered and see, it can not worship idols.
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Ramadhan
10-17-2011, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
One needs love to understand the Bible commandements....

Do Popes and priests have love?
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Abz2000
10-17-2011, 08:33 PM
Lots of it,
Mind your kids though - no offence to the priests, but the ex-nazi makes my blood boil
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Ramadhan
10-18-2011, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Do Popes and priests have love?
I am somewhat suprised by the timidity of christians to answer this question.
I thought it would have been a slam dunk for them.
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Iconodule
10-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Some do, some don't.
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Ramadhan
10-19-2011, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Some do, some don't.
But christians follow priests and popes who read bible for them, and Amigo says they need to have love to read bible and follow Jesus (p)

Does this mean majority christians actually do not follow Jesus (p) because those priests and popes who read them bible do not have love?
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Iconodule
10-19-2011, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

But christians follow priests and popes who read bible for them
No more than Muslims follow scholars who read Quran and Sunnah for them. Things are not so simple or one-sided.
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Ramadhan
10-19-2011, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
No more than Muslims follow scholars who read Quran and Sunnah for them. Things are not so simple or one-sided.
Only in your imagination.

In many other threads, Amigo has repeatedly explained that a person would not be able to read and understand bible by themselves. They need to become christians first, and then have priests, popes etc to read bible for them.

Not so for Qur'an.

Anyone can read and understand al Qur'an easily as there is no contradiction in the Qur'an, the language is such beauty, the truth is clear and truth is separated from falsehoods, and there is no error in the Qur'an.

Meanwhile, an array of popes, priests, pastors, ministers, nuns, bible studies are required to "explain" away (ie. talk bullsh*ts) all the errors, contradictions, additions, ommissions, changes, discrepancies, etc etc in those thousands of existing bibles, not to mention the bibles that were lost, burned, destroyed, etc etc.

Things are simple and one sided, indeed.

Truth is always clear and are not to be mixed up.
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Iconodule
10-19-2011, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Anyone can read and understand al Qur'an easily as there is no contradiction in the Qur'an, the language is such beauty, the truth is clear and truth is separated from falsehoods, and there is no error in the Qur'an.
Then why are there tafsirs? Why shaykhs and scholars? The board rules state:
Originally Posted by Islamic Forum Rules
This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed. Avoid asking questions that require a Scholar or Shaykh, as there is no one on the board qualified to answer your questions. Please use other knowledgeable means such as a scholar, Imam or knowledgeable person in your area or provide sources.
If there are such questions then obviously reading the Quran yourself isn't enough.
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 12:01 AM
without being blunt like brother Ramadan :) (lol he can be funny though) i will also point out that the Quran clearly tells us to study it ourselves:


This is a Book full of Blessings that we have revealed unto you so people ponder upon its verses and those who possess intellect may reflect. (Quran 38:29)

"But none will be reminded except those who possess of intellect." (Quran 2:269)

this is not referring to priests - it is referring to anyone who cares to use their brain:

Surely the worst of animals in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb who do not use their brains.(Quran 8:22)

Do they not then ponder on the Quran, or are there locks on the hearts? (Quran 47:24)

"Then do they not reflect upon the Quran? If it had been from [any] other than Allaah, they would have found within it much contradiction." [Quran: 4:82]

we are clearly told that the priests or scholars will not take our burdens on the day of judgement, if we didn't bother to think for ourselves.
they will bear their own burdens and a portion of the burdens of those they misled.
if you are sincere and you follow - doing your best, you may come through ok
but when you see a contradiction and then you follow without asking - will you point at the priest?

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He.
Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
Quran 9:31

Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear!
Quran 16:25

the scholar, Imam or knowledgeable person in your area possibly has more knowledge of the background of a verse -or how the Prophet (pbuh) applied it- but he cannot totally pervert the concept and make it mean the opposite of the spirit of the verse. and even the scholar wont bear your burden - he's just another man like you. but you'd go to any specialist in any field - simply because they have more facts.

but when you notice the "specialist" is blatantly overturning the fundamentals with no backing,
turns the sabbath which Jesus practicesd on saturday into sunday just because the roman emperor liked it that way - you have issues.
or eats the flesh of swine even though Jesus AND the other prophets held it as unlawful,
or tries to explain how a son can be 2 years older than the father - you need to sit down and start thinking.
does it make sense?
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Iconodule
10-20-2011, 12:14 AM
Christians also study the Bible themselves. Private reading is encouraged; private interpretation is something else. I trust that Muslims are not encouraged to write their own tafsirs of the Quran.
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Then why are there tafsirs? Why shaykhs and scholars? The board rules state:
Quote Originally Posted by Islamic Forum Rules
This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed. Avoid asking questions that require a Scholar or Shaykh, as there is no one on the board qualified to answer your questions. Please use other knowledgeable means such as a scholar, Imam or knowledgeable person in your area or provide sources.


If there are such questions then obviously reading the Quran yourself isn't enough.
Fatwas is the matter of fiqh (jurisprudence).

In terms of aqeedah, it's all clear cut: no need of fatwas.

Meanwhile, in order to "explain" the most fundamental of christianity: the trinity, you need a myriads of scribes, scholars, popes, nuns, ministers, bible scholars, etc etc over 2,000 years, and YET it's still inexplicable.
Not to mention the endless other contradictions, errors, etc etc in the bible.
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Christians also study the Bible themselves. Private reading is encouraged; private interpretation is something else. I trust that Muslims are not encouraged to write their own tafsirs of the Quran.
Then why did Amigo warn me not to read bible unless I become a christian and have holy ghost entered into me and guided by a priest?
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 12:25 AM
I really really like these verses:

Originally Posted by abz2000
This is a Book full of Blessings that we have revealed unto you so people ponder upon its verses and those who possess intellect may reflect. (Quran 38:29)

"But none will be reminded except those who possess of intellect." (Quran 2:269)

Surely the worst of animals in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb who do not use their brains.(Quran 8:22)

Do they not then ponder on the Quran, or are there locks on the hearts? (Quran 47:24)

"Then do they not reflect upon the Quran? If it had been from [any] other than Allaah, they would have found within it much contradiction." [Quran: 4:82]

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He.
Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Quran 9:31

Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear!
Quran 16:25
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Iconodule
10-20-2011, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Then why did Amigo warn me not to read bible unless I become a christian and have holy ghost entered into me and guided by a priest?
Probably because of your marked tendency to lie, distort, make false assumptions, etc.
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 12:31 AM
put it this way - if you're stuck on an island with nobody there - you can still somehow make sense of the Quran if you use your brains
- there are no priests in Islam - just unlearned learned and more learned.
people with white beards in the mosques often pray behind children who may happen to know more Quran.

even a child can sometimes figure out what grown ups miss due to their desire for conformity.
you seriously need to watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDh9UtOVfmQ
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Probably because of your marked tendency to lie, distort, make false assumptions, etc.
Please point out where I lied, distorted, make false assumptions?

If you can't show me where, you will have slandered me, and I don't think Jesus would like that.

what I have been saying in this section about christianity has always been based on your own scripture and your own belief.
I know you might not like it and it makes you uncomfortable, but it is a reflection of your own belief and faith.

Also, have you really thought through about the implication of what you said above?
If it was really the intention of Amigo, then he must have lied, and he actually meant that no one really needs to be a christians, filled by holy ghost, and guided by a priest to read bible.

It's either truth or false, not both. so which one is it?
It seems to me christians are comfortable in mixing both.

And anyway, Amigo said that in general terms, he didn't specifically direct that guidelines to read bible only to me.
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Iconodule
10-20-2011, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
put it this way - if you're stuck on an island with nobody there - you can still somehow make sense of the Quran if you use your brains
Unless you can't read classical Arabic in which case you're out of luck. And if you can read classical Arabic you're already familiar with Islam anyway. (Everyone says that "translations" are actually just interpretations)
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 01:03 AM
so are bible translations - they usually catch the spirit of the verses from the writer's angle,
with regards to the bible though - there are no complete "original" hebrew manuscripts, and the only ones referred to as complete seem to be greek translations,

so when we compare the two - we do see that one is more practical,
it is for you to read and decide whether it makes sense, and whether or not it is from Almighty God
if you want a free copy (translation), please feel free to pm me,
peace
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Iconodule
10-20-2011, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by abz2000
so are bible translations - they usually catch the spirit of the verses from the writer's angle,
with regards to the bible though - there are no complete "original" hebrew manuscripts, and the only ones referred to as complete seem to be greek translations
We do not ascribe the same kind of absolute authority to "originals". We know that God preserves the scriptures through his Church and that the essential meanings can remain intact between languages. Hence a Bible in translation is still a Bible, and we can pray in our own languages. Yet I know that I believe the same things as the Greek, Russian, or Arabic speaking Orthodox Christians.

It is my understanding that Muslims must pray the Salah in Arabic, even if they don't understand what they're saying. Converts can use translations in the beginning but must learn the Arabic as soon as possible. And no one can be a scholar unless he can read and understand the Quran and Sunnah in classical Arabic.
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 02:51 AM
well technically - they could be "scholars" on par with the bible scholars who don't understand hebrew or aramaic or greek,
but that's not an agreed upon standard for fully understanding the context.

i myself often translate verses for myself when i'm not happy with the ones i have available - and let me tell you - it is soooooooooooooooo different from the original,
sometimes you find yourself wanting to add 15 words to replace 5 arabic ones - simply because it translates differently depending on your frame of mind and situation. (angle).
i have seen it happen in the bible too and the meaning is often so different.

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 54:1

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Galatians 4:27

or something like this gives you a totally different understanding since it's not a problem with translation - they've actually added and subtracted words:

New International Version (©1984)
Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.New Living Translation (©2007)
What joy for those whose strength comes from the LORD, who have set their minds on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Blessed are those whose strength is in you, in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, In whose heart are the highways to Zion!
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Blessed is the son of man whose helper you are, and in whose heart are your ways!
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Blessed are those who find strength in you. Their hearts are on the road [that leads to you].
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Blessed is the man whose strength is in you; in whose heart are the ways to them.
American King James Version
Blessed is the man whose strength is in you; in whose heart are the ways of them.
American Standard Version
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; In whose heart are the highways to Zion .
Bible in Basic English
Happy is the man whose strength is in you; in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Blessed is the man whose help is from thee: in his heart he hath disposed to ascend by steps,
Darby Bible Translation
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee, they, in whose heart are the highways.
English Revised Version
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
Webster's Bible Translation
Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
World English Bible
Blessed are those whose strength is in you; who have set their hearts on a pilgrimage.
Young's Literal Translation
O the happiness of a man whose strength is in Thee, Highways are in their heart.
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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
Unless you can't read classical Arabic in which case you're out of luck. And if you can read classical Arabic you're already familiar with Islam anyway. (Everyone says that "translations" are actually just interpretations)
Even when you read Qur'an translations, there is no contradictions, errors, in the fundamentals and the truth is always set clear.

But when you read bible translations (ANY bible translations), there are THOUSANDS of contradictions, confusions, errors, etc.
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Abz2000
10-20-2011, 03:13 AM
and do you not see Roman political fingerprints all over this?

These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
John 9:22


it is obvious that the healer, the healed, the parents AND the believers were jews, (And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26)
but rather than write Roman king, Roman soldiery, Chief priest, Pharisees,- they write Jews, (as it was the Roman king calling the shots and the chief priests who had no authority were following orders)
but writing "jews" points to the likelihood that a political slant was being put on it and that blame was being misappropriated.

Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?
12And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
13Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
John 7:11-13


again you can see clearly that the people beginning to follow Jesus (pbuh) were true believers from among the Jews and that it was a Jewish feast.
So who would have a motive to write "The Jews" in place of leadership?

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
.....Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26
But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

You can also see that there was an order from the corrupt leadership not to mention him publicly, despite people debating about him in private and some accepting him to be the Christ.
(i'm sure you're aware of the denial of Peter).

back to topic - what i am saying is that if you don't look at it critically yourself - look at the blatant discrepancies and admit to yourself that people with a vested interest have attempted to obfuscate the truth,
your priests wont tell you it - because they believe that it is best kept quiet.
real bible scholars would not dare claim that there are no human fingerprints which have totally twisted some parts of it - because it is easy to prove,
i am not knocking the book (that would be disbelief according to the Quran - And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.).

what i am saying is this
it involves those who just ignore the teachings of the book and believe it is all in their heart's desires
and those who fabricate in order to misguide the people:

78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!
Woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.

Quran 2:78-79


We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.
Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
88. They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word: we need no more)."
Nay, Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.

89. And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,
- when there comes to them that which they recognise, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
90. Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny what Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.
91. When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down,
"they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them.
Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

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Ramadhan
10-20-2011, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
We know that God preserves the scriptures through his Church and that the essential meanings can remain intact between languages.
You "know" or you "believe"?

If you "know", then where is the evidence that your scriptures is preserved through his church?

Meanwhile, we have shown you undeniable evidence that the church has not preserved scriptures.

I am not twisting any word and try to distort, you are the one who's distorting meaning of words.
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Aprender
09-06-2012, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
It is my understanding that Muslims must pray the Salah in Arabic, even if they don't understand what they're saying.
Your understanding is incorrect.
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