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abdussattar
10-12-2011, 11:55 AM
I just wanted to know what belief do Christians and Jews have about Abraham(A.S) and do they believe that he built the ka'baa and all the things Muslims believe in?
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Iconodule
10-12-2011, 03:44 PM
He is commemorated in the Orthodox Church as the Righteous Forefather Abraham and is an ancestor of Christ. Our fundamental beliefs about him can be found in the Book of Genesis. The Ka'baa story I believe is peculiar to the Arabian peninsula and I don't believe it is taught in the wider Christian world.
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Ramadhan
10-12-2011, 11:02 PM
Do christians also believe Abraham (as) destroyed icons and other representatives of God?

Do christians also believe Abraham (as) worshiped ONE God only, without "no", "but" and "if" and without the convoluted God-is-one-but-three-persons?
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Iconodule
10-12-2011, 11:38 PM
The Holy Righteous Abraham did not destroy icons of God. He did, however, destroy idols.

He worshiped the one true God who is in three persons. The revelation of the Trinity was foreshadowed by the three angels who visited Abraham and Sarah.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
The Holy Righteous Abraham did not destroy icons of God. He did, however, destroy idols.
But the people of Abraham (pbuh) considered those idols as their icons of God, right?
It would be similar to the Hindus of today. You consider those hindu things as idols, but the hindus themselves consider those as icons of God.

Do christians believe Abraham (pbuh) worshiped icons of God?

Originally Posted by Iconodule
He worshiped the one true God who is in three persons.
Can you please show me the OT verses where Abraham (pbuh) strongly indicated or directly said that he worshiped three persons God?

Originally Posted by Iconodule
The revelation of the Trinity was foreshadowed by the three angels who visited Abraham and Sarah.
We all know that bible (both OT and NT) are riddled with mistakes and errors (factual and non), and the scribes of various books of bible added in their own creative words (this is confirmed by pastor Grace Seeker who has said this in another thread), and therefore do we actually know that there were three angels who visited Abraham and Sarah?
In Genesis 18 and 19 (the continuation story of Abaraham and Lot pbut), three angels appeared to Abraham (pbuh), but the same three angels who walked from Abraham (pbuh) to Sodom and Gomorrah became two angels when appeared to Lot (pbuh).

So let's say there were indeed three angels that appeared to Abraham (pbuh) and you claim that they were representation of a three persons God,
does this mean that the God that Lot (pbuh) worshiped was a two persons God, since only two angels appeared to him (pbuh)?

Christians never cease to amaze me that they would go through verbal and mental gymnastics to make falsehoods as truth, while ignoring the clear truth that stands strong right in front of them.
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Iconodule
10-13-2011, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Do christians believe Abraham (pbuh) worshiped icons of God?
No, it was not possible for icons of God to be made, since God had not incarnated yet.

Can you please show me the OT verses where Abraham (pbuh) strongly indicated or directly said that he worshiped three persons God?
He didn't. God's three distinct hypostases had not been fully revealed, though there were hints of it.

We all know that bible (both OT and NT) are riddled with mistakes and errors (factual and non),
Do we now? My understanding is that this thread is about what Christians believe. If you have sincere questions, asked in a friendly and non-polemical manner, I will be happy to answer them.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
No, it was not possible for icons of God to be made, since God had not incarnated yet.
But God has incarnated according to the Hindus long before the belief of current christians.
And what if the people of Abraham (pbuh) also believed that God already had incarnated.
This means they worshiped icons of God, no?

And according Genesis 18:1, God already incarnated to Abraham (pbuh):
Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of MamĀ“re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day

So it was possible for Abraham (pbuh) to make icons of God, no?
What kinds of icons of God do christians think Abraham (pbuh) worshiped?
Would they be similar to the icons of God that todays christians worship?

Originally Posted by Iconodule
He didn't. God's three distinct hypostases had not been fully revealed, though there were hints of it.
So basically you are saying that Abraham actually worshiped ONE TRUE GOD (with no persons)?

Originally Posted by Iconodule
Do we now? My understanding is that this thread is about what Christians believe. If you have sincere questions, asked in a friendly and non-polemical manner, I will be happy to answer them.
Yes we do. You and I know that bible is full with errors and mistakes (factual and non). Even all bible scholars know that. I assumed you have read bible, no?
Do you want me to list all those errors so you might try to explain how those errors came into being?

I gave you one example already about three angels appeared to Abraham (pbuh) and the same exact angels reduced to two when appeared to Lot (pbut).

Now, please andswer this question:
Did Lot (pbut) worship a two persons God?
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Iconodule
10-13-2011, 02:46 AM
I would gladly answer your questions if I thought you were sincerely interested in the answers.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
I would gladly answer your questions if I thought you were sincerely interested in the answers.

Do you not like my questions?
Or do you only answer questions that you like?
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 03:45 AM
You can start with this one:

Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Did Lot (pbut) worship a two persons God?
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Iconodule
10-13-2011, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Do you not like my questions?
Or do you only answer questions that you like?
There are certain people who are firmly convinced that Muslims worship a "moon god." Whenever I come across this nonsense my first instinct is to explain why it's not at all true. But usually it becomes clear that no matter what evidence you put in front of these people, they will go on believing what they want to believe. When someone starts out with false assumptions and a hostile tone it's a good indicator that meaningful discourse does not lay ahead. Naturally, when I break off arguing with such people, they assume it's because they "won" the argument. So very well, Ramadhan- you won! Good night and good luck.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 04:39 AM
Originally Posted by Iconodule
There are certain people who are firmly convinced that Muslims worship a "moon god." Whenever I come across this nonsense my first instinct is to explain why it's not at all true. But usually it becomes clear that no matter what evidence you put in front of these people, they will go on believing what they want to believe. When someone starts out with false assumptions and a hostile tone it's a good indicator that meaningful discourse does not lay ahead. Naturally, when I break off arguing with such people, they assume it's because they "won" the argument. So very well, Ramadhan- you won! Good night and good luck.
You cannot control what others want to believe, but you can always present your case and evidence of truth.

Similarly, I cannot control what others believe about Islam, all I can do is to present evidence and facts and truth, it is up to them whether they accept them.

You, on the other hand, shy away from presenting your evidence and truth when I asked about it.

It is up to you, but I am always open for discussion :)
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Amigo
10-13-2011, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by abdussattar
Belief about Abraham(A.S)
I just wanted to know what belief do Christians and Jews have about Abraham(A.S) and do they believe that he built the ka'baa and all the things Muslims believe in?
I believe that he probably does have a history with the Ka'baa and some of what Muslim believe are true.
I believe that he was a great man who longed for God and tried his best to do his will. He had the greatest faith, only not as perfect as Mary's. As every man, he grew in faith and gained more understanding with age. There are things he did that he regreted after he had come to know what the perfect will of God was on the subject. One of them, and the most important, is his involvement with Agar before he undertood God's will on sexuality. There is an article that explain this in more details. Click here and read from chapter 31. I think this is also the one most related to Islam.
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Ramadhan
10-13-2011, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Amigo
There are things he did that he regreted after he had come to know what the perfect will of God was on the subject. One of them, and the most important, is his involvement with Agar before he undertood God's will on sexuality
What are you accusing prophet Abraham (pbuh) of?

Christians are so unbelievable. They slander and accuse the greatest prophets and messengers of God of the most heinous crimes (incestuous sex, impregnation of own daughters, adulteries, getting drunk, unjust killings, wrestling with God etc etc) and yet they take up various liars/murderers/hoarders/thieves/rapists as their representatives of God (ie. popes, priests, saints, etc) as sinless persons and worship them.
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