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Pygoscelis
10-14-2011, 04:43 PM
http://www.habibies.com/life-style/m...h-businessman/

It has been illegal to wear the face veil or ‘niqab’ in public places in Belgium since July.

Mr Nekkaz, who is standing as an independent in next year’s presidential elections in France, is opposed to the niqab but says governments should not intervene to decide who wears what and when.

“I am profoundly laic, profoundly republican and I cannot accept that a great country like Belgium votes for and applies anti-liberal laws,” he told local press. “I think this is a very dangerous downhill slope,” he said.

“Today we might stop women wearing the niqab but tomorrow who will prevent a parliament from voting for laws that ban miniskirts or that ban tattoos or pierced ears? You never know where this kind of downhill slope will end.”

Mr Nekkaz created a million-euro fund called the “Fund for the defence of laicity and liberty” from which he says he will pay all fines imposed on women for wearing the niqab in public. He is also threatening to take both Belgium and France – where a similar law exists – to the European Court of Human Rights.

After Brussels he is scheduled to travel to Roubaix, France, to pay a 75 euro fine
I am glad to see him doing what he is doing and I agree with him on why he's doing it. I too would never wear or urge anybody to wear a face veil, but I would defend their right to do so. If I had the money I'd join him in paying these fines to make the point to the parliament.

Or if they tried to put such a ban here in Canada, I may just wear a veil myself in solidarity and to make the point. Imagine if thousands of people, muslim and non-muslim, women and men wore veils in a sign of protest to the law. That may get their attention.
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GuestFellow
10-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Salaam,

I'm concerned. I disagree with the face veil ban but I think this businessman is setting a unwise precedent. There is a possibility that a businessman will start paying fines for other criminals who commit certain offences. These criminals and potential criminals will not fear the criminal justice system because they will know fines will be paid off by some wealthy businessman.

I think the above should be taken into consideration.
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Pygoscelis
10-14-2011, 08:17 PM
Tragic my friend, your signature and avatar are both making me hungry :p
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GuestFellow
10-14-2011, 09:38 PM
^ They make me hungry too. :( It's torture...
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Who Am I?
10-14-2011, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
http://www.habibies.com/life-style/m...h-businessman/



I am glad to see him doing what he is doing and I agree with him on why he's doing it. I too would never wear or urge anybody to wear a face veil, but I would defend their right to do so. If I had the money I'd join him in paying these fines to make the point to the parliament.

Or if they tried to put such a ban here in Canada, I may just wear a veil myself in solidarity and to make the point. Imagine if thousands of people, muslim and non-muslim, women and men wore veils in a sign of protest to the law. That may get their attention.

:sl:

For some reason, I pictured you as a dude, so reading the part about you wearing a veil made me do a double-take. :omg:
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.iman.
10-15-2011, 03:08 AM
I actually lived in France (been back in the US about a month now) and I was there when the burqa law was put into effect. I think what the guy is doing is great- he isn't even a Muslim. He is basically saying that the law is completely unfair and that the French idea of "laïcité" is completely screwed up (which, by the way, it IS). By paying for their fines, he is allowing Muslim women to continue their right to practice their religion in the way that they want. Also, it isn't all the time that women are given fines for wearing the burqa, most of the time officers turn their heads, or they have much more important things to take care of.
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Insaanah
10-15-2011, 06:21 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
There is a possibility that a businessman will start paying fines for other criminals who commit certain offences.
Do you regard the sisters in France that are wearing niqab as criminals? I can't tell, but the wording of the sentence seems to imply that apart from the criminals who wear niqab, this might start happening for other criminals. Forgive me if I've understood wrong.

Originally Posted by .iman.
I think what the guy is doing is great- he isn't even a Muslim.
Muslim and non-Muslim sources seem to suggest that he is a Muslim:

Rachid Nekkaz, who is a Muslim, said in a webcast he would help pay fines and was putting a property worth around €2m up for sale to fund his campaign.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...eil-protesters

Rachid Nekkaz, a Muslim with an Algerian background, has set up a million-euro fund in France to pay the fines.
Source: http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/in...p?article=5523
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GuestFellow
10-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
:sl:

Do you regard the sisters in France that are wearing niqab as criminals? I can't tell, but the wording of the sentence seems to imply that apart from the criminals who wear niqab, this might start happening for other criminals. Forgive me if I've understood wrong.
Salaam,

I'm not saying Muslim women that wear the Niqaab are criminals. I'm talking about individuals being convicted of a different offence.
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joyous fairy
10-15-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

I'm not saying Muslim women that wear the Niqaab are criminals. I'm talking about individuals being convicted of a different offence.
Assalam alaykum.

Wearing something you want to wear, or wearing something for religious reasons is not and should not be seen as an offence. I get what you mean that they might start paying other fines but I struggle to see how wearing a niqab can compare to any other crimes or offence. I just dont see the point of the law, niqab does not cause harm to anyone.
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Abz2000
10-15-2011, 10:02 PM
i bought a v for vendetta mask on ebay and reinforced it with fibreglass and resin - i also cut out the eye-holes and attached some ballistic sunglasses for good measure, you never know - they tear gas and shoot rubber bullets at people these days ...................
if only we could start local groups to turn out in masses with masks on............


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GuestFellow
10-15-2011, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by joyous fairy

Assalam alaykum.

Wearing something you want to wear, or wearing something for religious reasons is not and should not be seen as an offence. I get what you mean that they might start paying other fines but I struggle to see how wearing a niqab can compare to any other crimes or offence. I just dont see the point of the law, niqab does not cause harm to anyone.
:wa:

I see where you are coming from. Try to see it from this perspective. The government states what is legal and what is not legal. Animal testing is legal but not is necessarily seen as moral. Parking on a double yellow lines is illegal but is not considered to be immoral. A criminal is simply a person who breaks the law. So if a Muslim women wears the Niqaab, this means she broke the law and would be viewed as a criminal from the French government perspective. Here, law and morality must be distinguished. Just because the government declares certain acts constitute a criminal offence, does not mean it is right.

From our perspective, we disagree with the ban and see Muslim women that wear the Niqaab as victims.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the term criminal. I can become a leader and decide wearing lipstick whilst eating a burger is criminal....
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Ramadhan
10-16-2011, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I can become a leader and decide wearing lipstick whilst eating a burger is criminal....
And if I ever become the owner of this forum, I'll declare posting delicious cakes as avatar and sig as a crime deserving capital punishment!
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Abz2000
10-16-2011, 02:56 AM
that law is so ridiculous - what if there are pathogens in the air - or people want to avoid exhaust fume inhalation?



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joyous fairy
10-16-2011, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

I see where you are coming from. Try to see it from this perspective. The government states what is legal and what is not legal. Animal testing is legal but not is necessarily seen as moral. Parking on a double yellow lines is illegal but is not considered to be immoral. A criminal is simply a person who breaks the law. So if a Muslim women wears the Niqaab, this means she broke the law and would be viewed as a criminal from the French government perspective. Here, law and morality must be distinguished. Just because the government declares certain acts constitute a criminal offence, does not mean it is right.

From our perspective, we disagree with the ban and see Muslim women that wear the Niqaab as victims.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the term criminal. I can become a leader and decide wearing lipstick whilst eating a burger is criminal....
Yep, I get your point. But what I am saying is that the business man who is paying the fines knows that it is a silly law, it mainly targets Muslim women. Now other offences such as parking on double yellow lines and such are not silly because they are aimed at everyone and people can easily not park there. Some Muslims see niqab as Fardh so they wont just take it off. So other businessmen should be intelligent enough to know which offences deserve to be punished and which offences dont and also which offenders are victimes and which arent. Even lawyers end up sticking up for criminals so we cant expect no-one to stand up for niqabis.

Oh yeh, you sound like a proper law person, should have stuck with law lol :p

Originally Posted by Ramadhan

And if I ever become the owner of this forum, I'll declare posting delicious cakes as avatar and sig as a crime deserving capital punishment!
Lol, agreed. :p
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Muezzin
10-16-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by abz2000
that law is so ridiculous - what if there are pathogens in the air - or people want to avoid exhaust fume inhalation?
Then the French government will jump through hoops to allow people to wear those types of masks, while still rendering the niqab illegal. Not that I agree with them. It's just most likely what they would do based on their behaviour in the past. Remember the banning of religious symbols? Technically, a Sikh man's beard and turban and a Christian's cross necklace are religious symbols, but the French government made concessions for these while all but admitting the ban was specifically targetting women who wore a headscarf.

I wish the French government would quit the whole 'pro-secular, anti-all-religions-not-just-Islam' facade and just admit they don't like Isam and Muslims.
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Abz2000
10-16-2011, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by joyous fairy
Oh yeh, you sound like a proper law person, should have stuck with law lol
from what i gather tragic typos IS a law student.



Originally Posted by Muezzin
Then the French government will jump through hoops to allow people to wear those types of masks,
well then those masks along with headscarves are sufficient for awrah in terms of modesty, as it does exactly the same job, you can add sunglasses too :)

but the problem remains that this is an overt method of alienating Islam - so it should still be fought.
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.iman.
10-16-2011, 07:35 PM
The thing with the French government there is that they only apply their secular laws to Muslims, and they are taking it too far. You don't hear news stories about Christian girls being sent home because they were wearing a cross necklace. Instead, you have Muslim girls in high school, who can't wear their hijab, but still choose to dress correctly either wearing abaya, or a long skirt and long sleeves. There have been instances where the girls have been singled out (sent to the principal's office) and basically interrogated because they were still observing the Muslim dress, but without the hijab. In one particular case, the girl was sent home and asked not to return until she wore "normal" clothes. Other girls have been told that they can't wear long skirts.

So the question is, where will they draw the line? First, they ban "all" religious symbols (which basically just means hijab), then they ban niqab, now they are punishing girls for wearing skirts to school? All of this in the name of "secularism"!
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GuestFellow
10-16-2011, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by abz2000
from what i gather tragic typos IS a law student.
Salaam,

I used to be a law student. I decided to study Maths, though I am thinking of becoming a self-employed Will Writer for a while.
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Beardo
10-16-2011, 08:32 PM
I do believe Tragic brought up an excellent point, but keep in mind one thing: Usually, bails are only given to petty things, or seemingly-petty things. You won't be given a bailout for committing murder or doing something extremely fraudulent. In this case, I do believe the businessman is wise and noble for doing so. And I think most people will agree, he's a generous man for taking this bold step.
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Pygoscelis
10-16-2011, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

I used to be a law student. I decided to study Maths, though I am thinking of becoming a self-employed Will Writer for a while.
You don't have to be a lawyer to write wills where you live? You would have to be if you lived in in Canada. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't see why non-lawyers shouldn't be able to write wills for people. After all, there are those "do it yourself" will kits around now anyway.
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Pygoscelis
10-16-2011, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by .iman.
The thing with the French government there is that they only apply their secular laws to Muslims, and they are taking it too far. You don't hear news stories about Christian girls being sent home because they were wearing a cross necklace. Instead, you have Muslim girls in high school, who can't wear their hijab, but still choose to dress correctly either wearing abaya, or a long skirt and long sleeves. There have been instances where the girls have been singled out (sent to the principal's office) and basically interrogated because they were still observing the Muslim dress, but without the hijab. In one particular case, the girl was sent home and asked not to return until she wore "normal" clothes. Other girls have been told that they can't wear long skirts.

So the question is, where will they draw the line? First, they ban "all" religious symbols (which basically just means hijab), then they ban niqab, now they are punishing girls for wearing skirts to school? All of this in the name of "secularism"!
As the man this thread is about put it, it is a dangerous slippery slope to start banning articles of clothing. If they can ban hajib, then why not mini skirts, earings, turbans, black ties, jerseys of other cities' sports teams, whatever suits the current administration's fancy? I'm all for everybody wearing whatever they want, only subject to valid safety and hygiene concerns which may in some places exist regarding head veils and robes (security concern) and nudity (hygiene concern).
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GuestFellow
10-17-2011, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
You don't have to be a lawyer to write wills where you live? You would have to be if you lived in in Canada. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't see why non-lawyers shouldn't be able to write wills for people. After all, there are those "do it yourself" will kits around now anyway.
I live in the UK. We have Solicitors, Barristers and Legal Executives, though the differences between the three are narrowing. Yes, I'm aware you don't have to be a lawyer to write wills. However, it is better to get in contact with a solicitor in order for a will to be drafted since they are regulated by the Law Society. Will Writers are not regulated and tend to overcharge their clients, but I did hear that the British government will be doing something about this.

As for those "do it yourself" kits, I would not use them. :skeleton:
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Pygoscelis
10-17-2011, 06:33 AM
I wouldn't either (I'm a lawyer in Ontario, Canada). They are really only good for those who have a simple situation and little assets. An ex-wife, property out of the jurisdiction, complicated investments, concerns re probate and fees, all sorts of things are not contemplated in these kits. And really if your life is so simple that a kit will would do, then the default laws would probably do just as well (Succession law reform act in Ontario). I presume they have default laws for estates in the UK too.
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Who Am I?
10-17-2011, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by abz2000
i bought a v for vendetta mask on ebay and reinforced it with fibreglass and resin - i also cut out the eye-holes and attached some ballistic sunglasses for good measure, you never know - they tear gas and shoot rubber bullets at people these days ...................
if only we could start local groups to turn out in masses with masks on............


:sl:

That's a little creepy, but at least it's not a Burger King mask. That dude is uber-creepy, with that child-molester permagrin. If you were to wear a BK mask, I think you and I would tangle.
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Abz2000
10-17-2011, 06:17 PM
I chose the grinning mask due to it's nonchalant look :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLeuTvRPdI
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Muezzin
10-17-2011, 06:37 PM
Much as I love both the book and the film of V for Vendetta, what do Guy Fawkes masks have to do with a business man paying ladies' niqab fines?
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Abz2000
10-17-2011, 07:48 PM
Not much - other than the fact that the thread reminded me of all the people in the movie who came out with masked faces in solidarity and the tyrants stood down.........
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Futuwwa
10-18-2011, 08:41 PM
Now all that remains is for the businessman to close the circle by making up the paid amount via tax evasion ;D
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.iman.
10-22-2011, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
As the man this thread is about put it, it is a dangerous slippery slope to start banning articles of clothing. If they can ban hajib, then why not mini skirts, earings, turbans, black ties, jerseys of other cities' sports teams, whatever suits the current administration's fancy? I'm all for everybody wearing whatever they want, only subject to valid safety and hygiene concerns which may in some places exist regarding head veils and robes (security concern) and nudity (hygiene concern).
Exactly. The problem here is that the French don't know where to draw the line, and it is clear that this law is targeting Muslims, not random people wearing face masks in the street. As I mentioned earlier, there were several high school girls expelled from school for wearing dresses that were "too conspicuous" and that they were not allowed to wear jilbeb/abaya (one piece dresses) because they apparently were "religious" items. Here is a video of the girls talking about their experience (note it's in French). So I am all for this guy paying the niqab fines because clearly they have gone too far, and al hamdoulilah this business man is sticking up for the women.




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Mustafa2012
06-30-2013, 10:14 PM
Flamboyant Rachid Nekkaz pledges €1m to pay fines of French Muslim women caught wearing the full veil


BY Gavin Mortimer


On the eve of tomorrow's Bastille Day celebrations, there is more revolution in the air in France and this time the ringleader is a flamboyant Muslim businessman called Rachid Nekkaz. The 38-year-old property developer is incensed that France has moved one step closer to banning the burka, with women caught wearing the full veil in public liable to a €150 fine and anyone convicted of forcing a woman to cover up facing a fine of up to €30,000 and a year in prison.

The first stage in passing the controversial law was today approved in the National Assembly with members of the Lower House voting overwhelmingly – 335 votes for to one against – to introduce the ban. If the French senators in the Upper House ratify the proposal in September, it will become law by the spring of 2011.

Nekkaz (above), along with the majority of France's five million Muslims, is furious at what he sees as a persecution of his religion, pointing out that fewer than 2,000 French Muslims actually wear the full veil.

He has begun a campaign to fight the law and he's pledged one million euros of his own money to pay the fines of any Muslim convicted. Speaking outside the National Assembly, Nekkaz said: "One million sounds a lot, but to protect one's liberty it's not much, and I hope that others in this country who hold the constitution dear and want to protect our fundamental liberty will join me in fighting this law."

The debonair Nekkaz, a shining example of an integrated, modern French Muslim (he was born in France to Algerian parents), has set up a campaign group called 'Hands off my Constitution', and plans to raise the €1m by selling some of the properties he owns in the Parisian suburbs.

In front of the cameras he wrote a personal cheque for the seven-figure sum before describing the proposed law as 'Anti-Constitutional' and demanding that President Sarkozy shelves the idea.

That seems unlikely. Not only has Sarkozy described the full veil as degrading to women, but it's an issue that has the overwhelming support of his UMP party. Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said last week that wearing the veil "amounted to being cut off from society and rejecting the very spirit of the French republic that is founded on a desire to live together''.

And the likes of Nekkaz haven't been helped in fighting the law by the muddled approach of the opposition Socialist Party. They would like to see a ban restricted to state institutions. But that notion was ridiculed by Alliot-Marie, who said it would be "legally incoherent" and impossible to enforce. "How could we convince the French people that freedom, equality and respect for the dignity of women begins in the train station but stops at the exit?''

The Socialists abstained in today's vote in the Lower House and have said they will adopt a similar stance in September's Senate vote, in which case it seems certain the law will be written into the French Constitution. But the country's police force is bracing itself for a backlash. Security was increased at the National Assembly ahead of today's vote and there are fears of street riots if the bill is passed

Source
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UmmuShaheed
07-01-2013, 12:36 AM
Only Allah Knows his intentions but Alhamdulilah this is some relief to the sisters in France. I don't know what life would be like without my niqab :( May Allah grant them strength
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Ali Mujahidin
07-01-2013, 04:02 AM
I am a bit confused here. The OP is posted just a short while ago but the article in the post refers to President Sarkozy who is no longer the president of France. Have I missed something along the way?
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Iceee
07-01-2013, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin
The OP is posted just a short while ago but the article in the post refers to President Sarkozy who is no longer the president of France. Have I missed something along the way?
LAST UPDATED AT 19:07 ON Tue 13 Jul 2010
http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/13...#ixzz0tmdthh8D


They say, "Oh, poor girl, you're so beautiful you know
It's a shame that you cover up your beauty so."

She just smiles and graciously responds reassuringly,

"This beauty that I have is just a simple part of me.
This body that I have, no stranger has a right to see.
These long clothes, this shawl I wear, ensure my modesty.
Faith is more essential than fashion, wouldn't you agree?"

This hijab,
This mark of piety,
Is an act of faith, a symbol,
For all the world to see.

A simple cloth, to preserve her dignity.
So lift the veil from your heart to see the heart of purity.
They tell her, "Girl, don't you know this is the West and you are free?
You don't need to be oppressed, ashamed of your femininity."

She just shakes her head and she speaks so assuredly,

"See the bill-boards and the magazines that line the check-out isles,
with their phony painted faces and their air-brushed smiles?
Well their sheer clothes and low cut gowns they are in, really not for me.
You call it freedom, I call it anarchy."

This hijab,
This mark of piety,
Is an act of faith, a symbol,
For all the world to see.

A simple cloth, to preserve her dignity.
So lift the veil from your heart to see the heart of purity.

Lift the veil from your heart and seek the heart of purity.
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Mustafa2012
07-01-2013, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin
I am a bit confused here. The OP is posted just a short while ago but the article in the post refers to President Sarkozy who is no longer the president of France. Have I missed something along the way?
:salam:

Yes. I heard about this recently and searched for the article and posted it however it seems this story is quite old.

I think it's still worth knowing that there are people out there who are willing to use their own wealth to help our Muslim sisters retain their honour and freedom of expression. May Allaah :swt1: honour those who fight to protect the honour of Muslims everywhere.

Why are women allowed to walk around almost naked, yet when an individual decides to cover herself to protect her modesty, she is demonized by the law and threatened with fines and imprisonment?

Not too long ago it was shameful for even western women to walk around with their hair un-covered.

But look how times have changed.

Honestly, this world is turning crazier and crazier day by day.
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Insaanah
07-01-2013, 10:45 PM
:salam:

There was a thread on it here: http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...qab-fines.html
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Muhammad
07-01-2013, 11:08 PM
:wasalamex

^ :jz:

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