General Question for Iconodule

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace @ Iconodule..

I have a question I wish to ask..

It is mentioned in hadeeth that the prophet (PBUH) stated that his nation will be divided into many groups, but he also mentioned what is the truth amongst them, so the one adhering to the revelation he was revealed, the Qur'aan and by following his way of life one shall remain on the correct path.

Similarly, I believe in Christianity there are also many groups , but on what basis does one recognise he is on the truth?

Following the commandments of God? following the teachings of Jesus (p)?

If I do not make sense please free to say so. Just thought I'd create thread of my own as I do not wish to derail any members thread

Ps..My intention is not to bash or debate, it's just a sincere question on my part as I am curious about, so do not take this as a challenge or anything.

peace

[Iconodule]

Gre
Similarly, I believe in Christianity there are also many groups , but on what basis does one recognise he is on the truth?

Following the commandments of God? following the teachings of Jesus (p)?

Thanks for your question Jewel. It's an extremely important one.

The most concrete question is, "Where is the Church?" Jesus Christ founded a Church on his apostles, and promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18-19)... where is this Church of Christ today? We can determine this by seeing who has apostolic succession and faithfully preserves the Christian teaching which can be traced back to apostolic times, preaching nothing in contradiction to it. In other words, who holds the Tradition of the apostles?

Studying scripture and the writings of the Fathers yields the answer. My conclusion is that it is the Eastern Orthodox Church but exactly how I reach that conclusion is perhaps not necessary to outline unless you're really curious. The important thing is that "Where is the Church?" is the question, because if you find that Church then you have found the truth, because God will not allow his Church to disappear or become fundamentally corrupted.

I should mention that most Protestants would answer your question differently- they would say, "one knows where the truth is by seeing who truly follows the teaching of the Bible." But this raises the question, how does one properly interpret the Bible? And so the great importance of apostolic Tradition is highlighted.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Thank you for your reply and apologies for late reply

Thanks for your question Jewel. It's an extremely important one.
The most concrete question is, "Where is the Church?" Jesus Christ founded a Church on his apostles, and promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18-19)... where is this Church of Christ today? We can determine this by seeing who has apostolic succession and faithfully preserves the Christian teaching which can be traced back to apostolic times, preaching nothing in contradiction to it. In other words, who holds the Tradition of the apostles?
Studying scripture and the writings of the Fathers yields the answer. My conclusion is that it is the Eastern Orthodox Church but exactly how I reach that conclusion is perhaps not necessary to outline unless you're really curious. The important thing is that "Where is the Church?" is the question, because if you find that Church then you have found the truth, because God will not allow his Church to disappear or become fundamentally corrupted.
I should mention that most Protestants would answer your question differently- they would say, "one knows where the truth is by seeing who truly follows the teaching of the Bible." But this raises the question, how does one properly interpret the Bible? And so the great importance of apostolic Tradition is highlighted.

So, by following the 'church' of jesus (p) one is saved or correct according to those of who have your beliefs, right? I assume either your catholic if not protestant, correct me if I am wrong. Does God in the bible teach by following so and so teaching or obey a commandment one will never go astray, e.g. obeying God allmighty's commandment's, guidance which he sent and by this you will never go astray, so stick to these and you are sucessful, but if not you will not be. I mean surely many groups claiming truth and surely not all can be correct, but atleast a criterion to show who are wrong and whom are correct, i.e. falsehood is made clear.

'One knows where the truth is by seeying who truly follows the teaching of the bible' One may well know the truth if they follow the actual teachings of the bible, by realising these are actual God's word, but the question then comes to mind, how would one know which bible to follow? which is God's word? There are quite a number of copies of the bible? how would you answer this question? Is there a huge difference of belief between a catholic and a protestant, or other groups?

If I have not made sense please free to ask. again just a few curious questions and apologies if ive sounded harsh as i had no intention to do so.

[Iconodule]

So, by following the 'church' of jesus (p) one is saved or correct according to those of who have your beliefs, right?

Having the right beliefs is not enough to be saved. In fact I suspect many people of other faiths who sincerely seek truth and who do good works will find mercy in the hereafter. Orthodox Christianity is the fullness of truth but that does not mean that everyone else is thereby ****ed.

I assume either your catholic if not protestant, correct me if I am wrong.

As I said, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. We are "Catholic" in the historic sense of the term but we are not in communion with the Vatican church, with which we have many doctrinal and ecclesiological differences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Does God in the bible teach by following so and so teaching or obey a commandment one will never go astray, e.g. obeying God allmighty's commandment's, guidance which he sent and by this you will never go astray, so stick to these and you are sucessful, but if not you will not be. I mean surely many groups claiming truth and surely not all can be correct, but atleast a criterion to show who are wrong and whom are correct, i.e. falsehood is made clear.

Unlike the Protestants, the Orthodox do not hold up scripture as the sole and final standard, but rather we follow the broader concept of Holy Tradition which includes scripture but also many other sources, with the understanding that the Church passed on much of its doctrine by oral teaching in the first centuries of its existence, only writing it down much later.

It is the Church, and not a book, which is the "pillar and ground of truth" as Saint Paul says (1 Timothy 3:15). The Church, the body of Christ, determined the composition of the Bible and, as the body which produced the Bible, is qualified to interpret it. And, while individual teachers in the Church can go astray, the Church as a whole preserves the Orthodox doctrine.

'One knows where the truth is by seeying who truly follows the teaching of the bible' One may well know the truth if they follow the actual teachings of the bible, by realising these are actual God's word, but the question then comes to mind, how would one know which bible to follow? which is God's word? There are quite a number of copies of the bible? how would you answer this question? Is there a huge difference of belief between a catholic and a protestant, or other groups?

As I said before, determining the truth by "who follows the Bible" is a Protestant criterion which, while not entirely wrong, cannot be accepted on its own. The Church is the "pillar and ground of Truth"; Jesus Christ is a person, not a book.

The disagreements about which textual base to use for the Bible, or how many books to include in the Old Testament, are not as crucial as they might seem. The differences between these variants are not radical. The Orthodox Church prefers to use the Septuagint for its Old Testament (this is the text quoted in the New Testament and Church fathers) but this is not a point of dogmatic importance.

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[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Having the right beliefs is not enough to be saved. In fact I suspect many people of other faiths who sincerely seek truth and who do good works will find mercy in the hereafter. Orthodox Christianity is the fullness of truth but that does not mean that everyone else is thereby ****ed.

Firstly I assume the word with the stars is an innapropriate word, I shall mention that I find that there is no need for such language whether it's under stars or not, either way doesn't prove anything, but if it is not then I apologise.

But the fact remain's do all faiths actually practice what their original teachers taught..

Unlike the Protestants, the Orthodox do not hold up scripture as the sole and final standard, but rather we follow the broader concept of Holy Tradition which includes scripture but also many other sources, with the understanding that the Church passed on much of its doctrine by oral teaching in the first centuries of its existence, only writing it down much later.

You mean unlike the protestants, Hindus, Jews, muslims etc who hold up scripture in regards to what is to be followed by faith.

If you do not follow a certain scripture or do not hold up scripture as the sole and final standard, then what exactly is your belief? Where is the basis of your belief? The Church?

but also many other sources,

May I ask what are these other sources?

However, back to my original question.

For a muslim the sources are the revelation of the Allmighty, and the example and way of life of his prophet (SAW) who was sent to all of mankind.

What are the sources you would require as a christian?

[Iconodule]

Firstly I assume the word with the stars is an innapropriate word, I shall mention that I find that there is no need for such language whether it's under stars or not, either way doesn't prove anything, but if it is not then I apologise.

I used the "d" word, meaning "condemned to hell." In this context it is not a curse word, but oh well.

You mean unlike the protestants, Hindus, Jews, muslims etc who hold up scripture in regards to what is to be followed by faith.

We hold to scripture, just not scripture alone, as I mentioned earlier.

If you do not follow a certain scripture or do not hold up scripture as the sole and final standard, then what exactly is your belief? Where is the basis of your belief? The Church?

Yes, and the Holy Tradition which is passed down in the Church. For more information, I suggest reading this little excerpt from Bishop Kallistos' The Orthodox Church: http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_2.htm#n1

It is not perfect but it's a good introduction.

For a muslim the sources are the revelation of the Allmighty, and the example and way of life of his prophet (SAW) who was sent to all of mankind.

What are the sources you would require as a christian?

As is outlined in the above article: the scriptures, the creeds and decrees of the ecumenical councils, the writings of the Holy Fathers, the service texts used throughout the year, the icons, etc.

[missy]

Peace Iconodule,

Just bringing a few of your points to your notice..

Unlike the Protestants, the Orthodox do not hold up scripture as the sole and final standard, but rather we follow the broader concept of Holy Tradition which includes scripture but also many other sources, with the understanding that the Church passed on much of its doctrine by oral teaching in the first centuries of its existence, only writing it down much later.

You say oral tradition, huh? That ain’t cool! Because the time period between Jesus’ ministry and that of those who wrote the books of the Bible itself is almost a century and beyond. And in order to write it down they had to use the oral method. What’s the difference? If the writing was done that way, they wrote what they heard! Instead of having to rack their brains all the time, they put it down on materials they could find. The same thing was being transmitted.

Then what guarantee can you give that the writings of the Church Fathers, are exactly according to the true teachings of Jesus? That the true message was passed on accurately, oral or written?


If the Orthodox Christian beliefs and the Holy Tradition are according to what the link says, then is it true that the aim of Christian Life is “Deification”?! ^o)

The aim of the Christian life, which Seraphim described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally well be defined in terms of deification. Basil described man as a creature who has received the order to become a god; and Athanasius, as we know, said that God became man that man might become god. ‘In my kingdom, said Christ, I shall be God with you as gods’ (Canon for Matins of Holy Thursday, Ode 4, Troparion 3). Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain theosis, ‘deification’ or ‘divinization.’ For Orthodoxy man’s salvation and redemption mean his deification

That means according to y'all God isn't Transcendent? So you believe He is Immanent?

The idea of deification must always be understood in the light of the distinction between God’s essence and His energies. Union with God means union with the divine energies, not the divine essence: the Orthodox Church, while speaking of deification and union, rejects all forms of pantheism.

If it isn't pantheistic it definitely is polytheistic.

Because Orthodox are convinced that the body is sanctified and transfigured together with the soul, they have an immense reverence for the relics of the saints. Like Roman Catholics, they believe that the grace of God present in the saints’ bodies during life remains active in their relics when they have died, and that God uses these relics as a channel of divine power and an instrument of healing. In some cases the bodies of saints have been miraculously preserved from corruption, but even where this has not happened, Orthodox show just as great a veneration towards their bones. This reverence for relics is not the fruit of ignorance and superstition, but springs from a highly developed theology of the body.

P.S: I intend no offence by any of what I've written above. I've just done a bit of scrutinizing! :p
I'm sorry if it sounds harsh.