What was Jesus accused of that people wanted to punish him for?

[cs80918]

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

[Al-manar]

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

Peace

You want to know from Islamic or Christian point of view ?

the christian concept is that there are both metaphysical and physical causes for his death

1- The metaphysical is
that it was God's plan to send him to be crucified in order to atone the sinful humans who believe in him......, hence, the crucifixion was in God's plan all along.

2-The physical is suggested to be :

1. that the Jews thought of him as committing major blasphemy in His claim of being God's Son.
2. His travel to Jerusalem where he caused a disturbance at the Temple. It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem. The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate for execution.

The Islamic concept that they tried to harm,kill him (as they tried to kill other prophets before him as well ) ,but they could not

why would they try to kill him?

1. Simply cause he came with what they desire not.

The Holy Quran 1. 2:87 We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

2. He (and prophet/king David as well) was very critical of them.

Holy Quran 5:78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

3. They called him A son of adultery ,and a magician who want to led Israel astray Holy Quran4:156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.
Holy Quran 5:110 and I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


That was the matter in brief ,the matter in details within its broader context is there :http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1387763

and
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1389836

and
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1392765

Regards

[Amigo]

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

To reverse/undo the trespasses of Adam made when he was tried.

[Amigo]

that it was God's plan to send him to be crucified in order to atone the sinful humans who believe in him......, hence, the crucifixion was in God's plan all along.

The crucifiction would not have happened if Man had not sinned. So God did not plan it anymore than He planned for Man to sin.
A simple parallel: You dont' plan to lift up your friend when he fell down unless you are planning to make him to fall down and the whole thing is a game for you. But when he fells, you lift him up if you can.

The reason for his death: Sin.
Sin is a murder of the Word of God. The physical/visible cruxifixion is just a culmination anf full manifestation of the relationship between God and Man.

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[جوري]

Lol.. your god seems so meek & ineffectual and not involved with the creation to even anticipate their next step. God incapable of anticipating worst yet incapable of forgiving sans drama or poor equations

[Amigo]

It is those who are insecure who worries about that type of anticipating and pride...

[جوري]

That's meaningless but if that's satisfactory to you then kudos .. Whatever you need to convince yourself with to get by the task of reason!

Best,

[MustafaMc]

Let the Bible speak for the correct Christian answer rather than the made up reason they use to fit their dogma.

Matthew 2:1-3 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

John 12:12-14 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

Matt 27:11-12 Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

John 19:14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon. “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

Mark 15:9 “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate,

Mark 15:12 “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

Matt 27:28-29 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said.

Luke 23:36-37 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

Matt 27:37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

John 19:20-21 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. ²¹ The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”

Is it just me, or do we have a recurring theme among these diverse passages? Could it possibly be that he claimed to be the Messiah, the Anointed One, the King of the Jews, but his meekness did not fit their grandiose ideas for a king? Does it remind you of the passage when the Jews once before asked for a king and God provided lowly Saul whom they despised as unworthy to be their king? 1 Samuel 10:27 But some scoundrels said, “How can this fellow save us?” They despised him and brought him no gifts. But Saul kept silent.

[Ramadhan]

To reverse/undo the trespasses of Adam made when he was tried.

And how do you know this?

[Predator]

The crucifiction would not have happened if Man had not sinned. So God did not plan it anymore than He planned for Man to sin.
A simple parallel: You dont' plan to lift up your friend when he fell down unless you are planning to make him to fall down and the whole thing is a game for you. But when he fells, you lift him up if you can.

The reason for his death: Sin.
Sin is a murder of the Word of God. The physical/visible cruxifixion is just a culmination anf full manifestation of the relationship between God and Man.

Why does God contradict himself and wants a crucifxion . He said he only needed repentance .

Ezekiel 18:21
But if a wicked man turns away from his sins and obeys my laws and does what is fair and right, he shall surely live he shall not die

[Insaanah]

To reverse/undo the trespasses of Adam made when he was tried.

The crucifiction would not have happened if Man had not sinned.

Interesting, that people believe that God made a man suffer and die for the mistake of another man who lived centuries if not thousands of years earlier.

Such unjustness should not and cannot be attributed to God.

It also implies that God did not/could not fully forgive the first man.

Such lack of forgiveness for one who commits a mistake and repents, should not and cannot be attributed to God.

Neither can a denigration of His Power to forgive at will whom He wishes.

While the Christian concept of God seems to be that God is unjust and unforgiving, the Islamic concept of God, is that He is Most Just, and He is Forgiving, Merciful for all who repent sincerely, from the very first people on earth, to all those who will ever live:

Sahih International
They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." (7:23)

Sahih International
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. (2:37)

Sahih International
Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (20:122)

All praise be to Allah, and Glorified and Exalted be He above all that is falsely attributed to Him.

Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power, from what they attribute unto Him!
And peace be upon the messengers.
And praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds! (37:180-182)

Peace.

[Predator]

Also amigonote

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(Deuteronomy 24:16)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

The Bible is very clear that no person will be responsible for the sins of others. Each person is answerable for himself alone and cannot blame it on Adam and Eve.

This concept matches exactly the Qur’anic point on this issue.

(Quran 6:164)
“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”

[Amigo]

And how do you know this?

I have seen it in my walks in the realm of truth.

[Ramadhan]

I have seen it in my walks in the realm of truth.

Does this mean you have seen Adam(p) being tried, and Jesus (p) being tried?

[Hulk]

Muslim

[Hulk]

Sorry what I meant to say was that Jesus was a prophet of God, and he will return as the Messiah. And when he returns he will join the Muslims in prayer..

[Predator]

I have seen it in my walks in the realm of truth.

You still havent answered my question. Frustrated, eh? Its bound to happen cause your book is filled with these contradticons . See thats the problem, even the core belief itself is self contadictory and thereare several contradictions like these.How will you know which one to believe ie Which one was from God and which one from the devil


2 Samuel 10:18 - David slew 700 and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
1 Chronicles 19:18 - David slew 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen.
2 Chronicles 9:25 - Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
1 Kings 4:26 - Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses.
Ezra 2:5 - Arah had 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 - Arah had 652 sons.
2 Samuel 24:13 - SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE.
1 Chronicles 21:11-12 - THREE YEARS OF FAMINE.
How did Judas die?
Matthew 27:5 - Hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 - And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.
2 Samuel 6:23 - MICHAL never had a child until she died.
2 Samuel 21:8 - MICHAL had 5 sons.
2 Kings 24:8 - Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign.
2 Chronicles 36:9 - Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign.
1 Kings 16:6-8 - 26th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.
2 Chronicles 16:1 - 36th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.



Quran on the other challenges you to prove it wrong and you will never be able prove it wrong

Allah challenges you to find contradictions


Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Noble Quran 4:82]


Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:


If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 2:23]

[Pygoscelis]

Interesting, that people believe that God made a man suffer and die for the mistake of another man who lived centuries if not thousands of years earlier.

Such unjustness should not and cannot be attributed to God.

It also implies that God did not/could not fully forgive the first man.

Such lack of forgiveness for one who commits a mistake and repents, should not and cannot be attributed to God.

Neither can a denigration of His Power to forgive at will whom He wishes.

While the Christian concept of God seems to be that God is unjust and unforgiving, the Islamic concept of God, is that He is Most Just, and He is Forgiving, Merciful for all who repent sincerely, from the very first people on earth, to all those who will ever live:

Sahih International
They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." (7:23)

Sahih International
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. (2:37)

Sahih International
Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (20:122)

All praise be to Allah, and Glorified and Exalted be He above all that is falsely attributed to Him.

Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power, from what they attribute unto Him!
And peace be upon the messengers.
And praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds! (37:180-182)

Peace.

Though I in no way endorse Islam (I find it to be just as obedience instead of morality based as Christianity is) I fully agree with your criticism of Chrisitan doctrine here. Vicarious redemption is one of the ugliest things about Christian thought. That I can be foregiven my wrongs for celebrating/endorsing the suffering of another innocent person, is just twisted. Why can't God just say "I forgive" without the elaborate ritual of sending Jesus to suffer for it? Why does suffering pay for sin, instead of good deeds?

[Hulk]

No offence akhi airforce, you are a much more active and senior member here but I don't think it's fair to just present a whole bunch of contradictions like that especially since it's not what the thread topic is about. Isn't our niyyah to explain our deen to others who may have misconceptions? Wallahu'alam.. I'm just saying I don't like when people do it to us(even though it can be refuted), so I won't practice the same method.

[Amigo]

You still havent answered my question. Frustrated, eh? Its bound to happen cause your book is filled with these contradticons . See thats the problem, even the core belief itself is self contadictory and thereare several contradictions like these.How will you know which one to believe ie Which one was from God and which one from the devil

What would that core belief be?:)

[Predator]

What would that core belief be?:)

I meant your book is filled with contradictions which is nothing but evident falsehood and falsehood perished when the truth is hurled against it.


Quran 21:18 "When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish


Your core belief is that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ:-




"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and
your faith is also vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:14)
In a nutshell, No Crucifixion! - No Christianity!
,There is nothing that Christianity can offer mankind, other than the blood and gore of Jesus. If Jesus did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead, then there can be NO salvation in Christianity! "




"THE DEATH OF JESUS ON THE CROSS IS THE CENTRE OF ALL CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. . .ALL CHRISTIAN STATEMENTS ABOUT GOD, ABOUT CREATION, ABOUT SIN AND DEATH HAVETHEIR FOCAL POINT IN THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST. ALL CHRISTIAN STATEMENTS ABOUTHISTORY, ABOUT THE CHURCH, ABOUT FAITH AND SANCTIFICATION, ABOUT THE FUTURE AND ABOUT HOPE STEM FROM THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST",




It is contadicted by






(Deuteronomy 24:16)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

The Bible is very clear that no person will be responsible for the sins of others . Each person is answerable for himself alone and cannot blame it on Adam and Eve and that children shall not be put to death for son So that means ,Jesus will not pay the price of his Great Great Maternal Grandfather -Adam.




Ezek 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.




Ezekiel 18:21
But if a wicked man turns away from his sins and obeys my laws and does what is fair and right, he shall surely live he shall not die




So there are 2 contradictory statements




1. You are saved by turning away from your sins


2. You are saved only by Jesus supposedly killed on Cross

So you are left to make your own choice as to which verse is correct

[MustafaMc]

You are exactly correct that, "In a nutshell, No Crucifixion! - No Christianity!", but it goes beyond that as Christianity is also based on

1) Jesus was the 'only begotten Son of God' John 3:16 AND at the same time literally 'God with us' Matthew 1:23
2) Jesus was crucified AND died on the cross John 19:33
3) Jesus spent '3 days AND 3 nights in the heart of the earth' Matthew 12:40
4) Jesus' lifeless body was buried AND he was resurrected from the dead to live again Matthew 28:5-7

If you remove any element of these basic beliefs, then Christianity collapses as a myth, like a house of cards. The Quran itself refutes belief #1 with Al-Maida ayat 17 and At-Taubah ayat 30 and it refutes belief #2 with An-Nisa ayat 157.

[Amigo]

Quran 21:18 "When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish

Talking about contradictions; is this from the same package that says that 3 types of falsehood are permissible?

Actually I like that quote. It expresses without realizing it the core belief of Christianity. If you truly believe that, you will be saved, perhaps the same way OT people will be saved, for that's about how their belief in the death and resurrection of the Christ was expressed from their point of view.

There is a difference between reading and understanding. One who understand the resurrection of Christ, understands Scriptures. Not the other way around. We are not talking about the resurrection of any human being, but of Truth itself. Yeah, understanding of the nature of Truth comes first, then understanding the truthfullness of things.

The Bible quotes you provided do not contradict the core belief of Christianity. They prophecy it. You see contradictions because of your exceptions to Truth. You can not undersand Truth fully without embracing it fully.

[Amigo]

You are exactly correct that, "In a nutshell, No Crucifixion! - No Christianity!", but it goes beyond that as Christianity is also based on

1) Jesus was the 'only begotten Son of God' John 3:16 AND at the same time literally 'God with us' Matthew 1:23
2) Jesus was crucified AND died on the cross John 19:33
3) Jesus spent '3 days AND 3 nights in the heart of the earth' Matthew 12:40
4) Jesus' lifeless body was buried AND he was resurrected from the dead to live again Matthew 28:5-7

To be precise:

In a nutshell, no truth, no Christianity.
No absolute devotion to absolute truth, no perfect Christian devotion.

Death/cruxifiction is the unavoidable consequences of anyone who commit to truth without exceptions.
Resurrection is the unfailing promise to anyone who is faithful/truthful unto death.
Sonship...is 'seen' by anyone who live in the truth.
All these are results of life in the truth.
Truth is the foundation, the Beginning and the End.
Truth is the Way, the Christian Way.

[Predator]

Talking about contradictions; is this from the same package that says that 3 types of falsehood are permissible?

Those are exceptional cases which concern saving lives, reconciling between people, or creating love between husband and wife.

But you preach lies and pretend for dangerous purpose to get converts and drag them to hell

Philipians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in falsehood or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

So notice how the devil Paul would pretend to be different persons, to a Jew he pretends to be Jewish, and to a gentile (Greek) he pretends to be a Greek! Christian missionaries have directly used this as well, you will literally have Christian missionaries to pretend to be Muslims, they will claim they are Muslims, yet you will find out that they support Israel, Zionism, claim Jesus is divine, that the prophet Muhammad is not special and they will try to catch Muslim fish like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aktisCe24g



While we on the other hand use intellectual sword which is nothing but Wisdom and beautiful preaching

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." Noble Qur'ân 16:125

It is the duty of Muslims to establish the proof of Islam to the people so that truth can be made clear from falsehood. After that, whoever wishes to accept Islam may do so and whoever wishes to continue upon unbelief may do so. No one should be threatened or harmed in any way if he does not wish to accept Islam.

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

The Bible quotes you provided do not contradict the core belief of Christianity. They prophecy it. You see contradictions because of your exceptions to Truth. Why do you expect to see fullness of Truth while you don't embrace it fully?

Answer the question first before beating around the bush .

Why did your blundering clumsy devilish holy spirit who supposedly inspires your bible authors got confused and made this contradiction and is not sure whenever Are you saved by repentance from sins or by the so called blood of a middle eastern man who lived 2000 years ago ?

If one of them is wrong then whole book should be thrown out because God does not make mistakes . It as simple as that

[MustafaMc]

In a nutshell, no truth, no Christianity.
No absolute devotion to absolute truth, no perfect Christian devotion.

You are exactly correct that if the crucifixion of Jesus did not happen, then Christianity is based on falsehood. As much as I believe in Allah (subhana wa ta ala) as my Creator and Sustainer, so also do I believe that Jesus (alayhi salam) was not crucified. You have to convince me of the truth of the claim (that I believe is a lie) that he was crucified before anything else you write has any value.

From my perspective the entirety of the Christian faith is as a 'house built on sand'. Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

[Amigo]

You are exactly correct that if the crucifixion of Jesus did not happen, then Christianity is based on falsehood. As much as I believe in Allah (subhana wa ta ala) as my Creator and Sustainer, so also do I believe that Jesus (alayhi salam) was not crucified. You have to convince me of the truth of the claim (that I believe is a lie) that he was crucified before anything else you write has any value.

Only truth will convince you. Be truthful and you will see. Truth itself is the judge of what can be known about itself.

[Amigo]

Those are exceptional cases which concern saving lives, reconciling between people, or creating love between husband and wife.

Do you care wether life is true life or false life? how bout true/false peace and true/false love?
Do you think God cares?

When you embrace full truth, you will understand the Bible and also it will be easier for people to discuss with you. It is almost useless to discuss with a person who have already told you that they could be lying to you depending whatever their perspectives of life, peace, and love are. Without genuine interest/love of truth, discussion is almost useless.

Answer the question first before beating around the bush .

Why did your blundering clumsy devilish holy spirit who supposedly inspires your bible authors got confused and made this contradiction and is not sure whenever Are you saved by repentance from sins or by the so called blood of a middle eastern man who lived 2000 years ago ?

If one of them is wrong then whole book should be thrown out because God does not make mistakes . It as simple as that

There is no beating around the bush. It's a simple question.
And there is no evil in pure truth. There is lots of evil however in the tiniest of falsehood, starting always with confusion in understanding for undestanding is about elimination of falsehoods.

[MustafaMc]

Only truth will convince you. Be truthful and you will see. Truth itself is the judge of what can be known about itself.

Tell me if you are truthful, what element of Truth have you written?

[MustafaMc]

Amigo, I am reading a book, 'Mysterious Monuments' and a passage reminded me a lot of your posts. I quote from this book below:

"...the truth and facts underlying Freemasonry are veiled and hidden from the ignorant masses ... cloaked in allegory, riddle and cipher, and are presented as meaningless shadows which the profane and vulgar (ordinary persons) cannot possibly comprehend. ... Illuminists vastly enjoy taunting and mocking those of us who simply appreciate honesty and straight talk. All these liars know is deceit and trickery. Riddle and dishonesty are their stock and trade."

You write as no Christian I have ever met or read. Is that label for you a masquerade, disguise or facade for something very different?

[Amigo]

We will let the Truth judge.
I am not a Christian according to you, however I am one according to people like the author of the Gospel according to St. John and his other writtings. I supposed you never read them, or you did and you are lying for some purpose more important than truth.

[MustafaMc]

We will let the Truth judge.
I am not a Christian according to you, however I am one according to people like the author of the Gospel according to St. John and his other writtings. I supposed you never read them, or you did and you are lying for some purpose more important than truth.

I guess you are talking to me.

I only asked a question which you confirmed by your answer. Perhaps, you are a Gnostic Christian of some sort, but I doubt you are a Catholic or mainstream Protestant.

Yes, I have read the NT gospels. I grew up as a Christian and I read the Bible considerably when I was in college.

Who was the author of the 'Gospel according to St. John'? According to wikipedia, "The Gospel's authorship is anonymous. ... according to most modern scholars, John was not the author of any of these books."

[Amigo]

Yes, I was addressing you. It was a direct reply... so no need to quote you...
Well, I believe that he was their author and you don't sound like you really read them.
As about me. Yep, I am Catholic, it looks like you never read the catechism of the Catholic Church either.

If you really read the above, then the only reason you could be saying what you are saying would be that you are lying for the sake of what you believe to be more important than the truth.

[MustafaMc]

No, I haven't read the catechism of the Catholic Church, nor do I ever intend to.

I actually reread the NT except for Revelations some time shortly after I started practicing Islam again in June 2001. That is when I came across verses in Galatians where I saw Paul as the Apostle or Prophet or Messenger of Christianity in the same manner Prophet Muhammad (saaws) is for Islam. These verses include Gal 1:11-12, "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." and 15-20, "But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas (Peter) and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie." Now Paul never met Jesus while he was on earth to learn the 'gospel' he preached first hand, nor did he learn the 'gospel' from Jesus' disciples second hand. Rather he CLAIMS to have received the gospel he preached directly from God. Now given Paul's propensity to lie and even admitting to lying, I rather question the very ending of the selected passage, Galatians 1:20 "I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie."

Now Paul was the foremost in persecuting the followers of The Way even holding the clothing of Stephen as he was stoned and vehemently persecuting the Church as in Acts 8:3 "But Saul (Paul) began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison." Why should Paul be trusted in anything he wrote? You trust Paul whereas I trust Muhammad (saaws) who was known throughout his community as Al-Amin, the Trustworthy. Speaking of which, this article explains trustworthiness in Islam. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1703/

On another note, from a Catholic Christian perspective, explain to me the meaning of Hebrews 7:3 "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever." My Islamic understanding of "without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life" can refer to known other than Allah (swt), but in this passage it refers to Melchizedek a HUMAN king during the time of Abraham.

[Amigo]

The same simple answer stands. Walk in the truth, and the truth will shine on your path, then you will see clearly. Paul also did not understand any of those things until he surrendered fully to the Truth. Read again his story, you will see that he had a remarkable accounter with the Truth/Great Light. Notice also that before setting off as a lone missionary, the Truth/Jesus used the Church to put him in proper shape for mission. So you are misunderstanding him when you suppose that he was separate from the Church. He couldn't do anything without being born of the Church anymore that a child can exist without being born of his/her mother.
As clear and simple as this is, it can only be believed by one who has gone through them. Therefore, so long as you close yourself out with some exceptions to truth, so you will never know what you refuse to look at. You ask questions about family relationships while you believe that they can hold with falsehood. From falsehood you can only get misunderstanding. Understanding comes from truth.

[MustafaMc]

... you will see that he had a remarkable accounter (encounter?) with the Truth/Great Light....

Also from the book I am reading:

"Masons are continually encouraged by their superiors to seek after more light. Satanists and occultists honor Lucifer, or Satan, as the Father of Light."

On the road to Damascus Saul did have an encounter with light, Acts 22:6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me." Was this supernatural being that Saul conversed with actually the afore mentioned 'Father of Light' pretending to be the risen Jesus?

[Amigo]

You will tell from truth when you walk in it. There is no falsehood from truth.
I wonder if masons also believe that lying is always wrong. From there you would tell about what type of light they seek.
Satan is also Father of all lies. Now lies x light = false light.
By light I meant true light, not false light.

[MustafaMc]

Philipians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in falsehood or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

So notice how the devil Paul would pretend to be different persons, to a Jew he pretends to be Jewish, and to a gentile (Greek) he pretends to be a Greek! Christian missionaries have directly used this as well, you will literally have Christian missionaries to pretend to be Muslims, they will claim they are Muslims, yet you will find out that they support Israel, Zionism, claim Jesus is divine, that the prophet Muhammad is not special and they will try to catch Muslim fish like this

Amigo, Brother Airforce has already shown the lack of truthfulness in the self-acclaimand 'Apostle to the Gentiles' on whose 'gospel' the whole of Christianity is based and the foundation upon which it is based - a foundation of sinking sand. You stand behind Paul and I stand behind Muhammad (saaws). I believe the words Muhammad (saaws) spoke as the revealed Word of Allah (swt). Whether you acknowledge it or not, so too do you believe the words that Paul wrote as the revealed word of God. Deen ukum wa liya deen - to you your religion and to me mine.

[Ramadhan]

You will tell from truth when you walk in it. There is no falsehood from truth.
I wonder if masons also believe that lying is always wrong. From there you would tell about what type of light they seek.
Satan is also Father of all lies. Now lies x light = false light.
By light I meant true light, not false light.

You said that christians absolutely under any circumstances MUST NOT lie.

However, saul of tarsus clearly said several times in the bible: christians are allowed to lie.

Both cannot be true. So who lied? you or saul?

[Amigo]

You are not reading the Bible properly. Even if he had lied or thought that lying can be okay sometimes, it would only prove that he was a sinner, not that Christianity approves any kind of lie. Paul was a Christian like all others... undergoing purification and perfection day after day.
The Truth does not come from imperfect men, but from the Holy Spirit. From him, pure truth is revealed. That's why one must be with the Holy Spirit in order to read straight through the crooked lines of imperfect men who wrote various writings in the Bible.
I was not baptized in the name of Paul and I don't know any Christian who was.

[MustafaMc]

Paul never thought to lie.

Was the Prophet of Christianity then inspired to lie, or did he have a Freudian slip, if not, then how are we misreading what he wrote?

[Amigo]

You do not have the Holy Spirit who opens one's eyes to what Scriptures are saying.

[Amigo]

Sorry i did not realize you had posted before my last edit...

Was the Prophet of Christianity then inspired to lie, or did he have a Freudian slip, if not, then how are we misreading what he wrote?

You do not have the Holy Spirit who opens one's eyes to what Scriptures are saying in truth.

[Predator]

You do not have the Holy Spirit who opens one's eyes to what Scriptures are saying.

Its you who is blind to what the scriptures are saying and saying "La La la I cant hear you

Ezekiel 18:21

²⁰The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.But if the wicked person turns away from all the sins that he has done. He obeys all my laws and does what is fair and right. He will certainly live. He will not die.


Your constant ignorance and rejection reminds me of the below verse

002.006 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
002.007 God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they(incur).

Its fit you well ,amigo

[Ramadhan]

You are not reading the Bible properly. Even if he had lied or thought that lying can be okay sometimes, it would only prove that he was a sinner, not that Christianity approves any kind of lie. Paul was a Christian like all others... undergoing purification and perfection day after day.

Ah, so you agree that saul of tarsus in the bible said that lying is ok.

And you disagree with saul.

So this means you disagree with your own bible.

What else in the bible that you disagree with?

[Ramadhan]

You are not reading the Bible properly.

Why am I the one who is not reading the bible properly, when I am the one who base what I am saying with evidence from the bible, and you are the one who is yet to bring a single verse from bible to this discussion?

Who is lying here?

I am?
or you are?

[Amigo]

Its you who is blind to what the scriptures are saying and saying "La La la I cant hear you

Ezekiel 18:21

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.But if the wicked person turns away from all the sins that he has done. He obeys all my laws and does what is fair and right. He will certainly live. He will not die.

You uphold that falsehood can sustain life and peace in people and love in family and you expect to understand this verse which talks about family and life? Understanding is a relative of truth, not falsehood.

Your constant ignorance and rejection reminds me of the below verse

002.006 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
002.007 God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they(incur).

Its fit you well ,amigo

There is no ignorance in truth. Ignorance is in falsehood.
Faith is also a relative of truth, not falsehood. People reject Faith by embracing falsehood. Of course I am speaking of true faith, not false faith here. True faith is sustained by truth; false faith is the faith sustained by falsehood.
As about believing, well, I believe in the truth, and disbelieve in lies. I would not believe a person once they have already indicated to me that they could be lying to me.

[Amigo]

Why am I the one who is not reading the bible properly, when I am the one who base what I am saying with evidence from the bible, and you are the one who is yet to bring a single verse from bible to this discussion?

Who is lying here?

I am?
or you are?

That should be easy to answer considering our belief on lying.
Evidence is a relative of truth, not falsehood. One can't get evidence without love of truth and full denounciation of falsehood.

[Ramadhan]

That should be easy to answer considering our belief on lying.

Ah, so this means you lied.

Truth is paramount, and truth will always win at the end. evidence is not relative of falsehood, but of truth. Falsehoods breed more falsehoods, and evidence is obscured by falsehoods.

See how easy it is make up empty words? Anyone can do it just like what you have been doing.

As about believing, well, I believe in the truth, and disbelieve in lies. I would not believe a person once they have already indicated to me that they could be lying to me.

Let me remind you of your own words where you accuse paul of lying:

Even if he had lied or thought that lying can be okay sometimes, it would only prove that he was a sinner, not that Christianity approves any kind of lie. Paul was a Christian like all others... undergoing purification and perfection day after day.

Dose this mean you don't believe in the bible now?
Remember that paul's words make up more than half of NT, and paul lied (in your own words), so this means you don't believe in all of paul's words.

BUT you LIED.

You still believe in paul's words (otherwise you wouldn't have been christian).

See, when a person does not have the truth but claim they do, they make up lies. and they will keep making up lies to cover up their previous lies.

[Amigo]

Christianity was there long before Paul's conversion. He believed what I believe not the other way around:)
I was not baptized in the name of Paul, nor is Paul in my creed.
Paul is not, has never been, and will never be a requirement for baptism.
The only requirement is absolute committment to absolute truth. For God is Truth itself.
Christians grow in faith by confirming each other in truth; they pray for each other to be delivered from falsehood often hiding in whatever imperfections remaining even as they are being perfected and purified.

You are being confused by your fantasies about Paul, you are giving him the 'honor' he would himself find offensive. Not that you care about offending him, perhaps you are doing it to actually offend him. But like all other great preachers, he was under the authority of the Church which imposed her hands on him to enable him for valid ministry, with this he preached the one true Gospel given to the Church from the foundation. Unfortunately you can not understand this Gospel due to lack of full commitment to truth, but this does not prevent those who have full commitment to truth to understand it and see it shining through out the Bible and the Church even through great human imperfections. For the Word of God is infinetely stronger than the imperfection of men.
The Truth is brightest. It can not even be hindered by the sins of the penitent men who have submitted it its purifyinng powers. It shines through the darkness and conquers all darkness, all falsehood. And we have evening then morning: new day. For those who have full subscription to truth, there is no night over them. When night approches, the Word of God turns it into day, and they move from evening to morning.

[ariginality]

I'm curious: which version of the bible are you guys arguing about? How can a scripture be brought from a book with so many versions? And the only pure fact that can be derived is that each is so corrupted. If Satan is said to be the father of all lies. Please bring me a bible that is free from them so that we may have a discussion with relevance and truth.

[MustafaMc]

Amigo, why do you obfuscate what you write with vague references to Truth/falsehood, light/darkness, and day/night? Why don't you come out and straight away state what you believe is the 'Truth'?

According to Islam, the 'Truth' is centered around the first part of the shahadah, "There is no god (deity) except Allah (The God)." This concept is illustrated in surah Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4 "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." The rest of the shahadah "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" can be illustrated by Surah Al-Imran 3:31 Say: "If you love Allah, then follow me (Muhammad): Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

My perception of what you write is captured by the last part of John 8:31-32 without your ever stating what the teachings of Jesus are or what the 'Truth' is. John 8:31-32 "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” For that matter I don't remember you quoting from the Bible to support any of your points. Could it be that your beliefs aren't based on the Bible, but rather on 'The Church'? I grew up as a Protestant, Baptist to be exact, and my fundamental belief then was "Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, that he died on the cross as the only acceptable sacrifice to redeem man from his sin and sinful nature, that he was buried, that he was resurrected from the dead and that whoever believes these things and accepts Jesus as his personal Saviour will be saved from the Hellfire."

I know a few Catholics and in speaking with them I have come to the understanding that they believe that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. The focus is less on a personal relationship with God through Jesus and more a reliance upon the Church and adherence to its Sacraments. My perception is that the Protestant faith is centered around John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." and that Catholicism is based on Matthew 16:18-19 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

My understanding of the central 'Truth' on which the afore mentioned religions are based without which there is no salvation can be encapsulated as:

Islam - the Oneness of God and Muhammad was his Messenger
Protestant - Jesus was the Son of God and God incarnate and that he died on the cross for man's redemption
Catholic - the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church

The Quran itself speaks of truth and falsehood as you are so fond of doing. A few pertinent ayat from the Quran:

Al-Anbiyah 21:18 Nay, but We hurl the truth against falsehood, and it breaks its head and lo! falsehood perishes. And woe unto you for that which you ascribe (unto Him).

Al-Imran 3:70-713 O People of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians) Why do you disbelieve in the revelations of Allah, when you bear witness (to their truth)? "O People of the Scripture! Why do you confound truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?"

I challenge you, if you are a truthful person, to speak as clearly as I have written with quotes from the Bible to support your specific points. What is the Truth according to Amigo?

[Amigo]

I speak with clarity, the truth of your day to day life experience is enough support to what I say.

When you walk in truth, you walk in evidences. When you avoid truth, you also avoid evidence. If you lie to your wife, you will have no knowledge and no evidence of what happens if you tell her the truth. Therefore, you should not be telling those who did not lie to their wives to produce evidence for you about what happens when they don't lie. They can only give you reports, not evidence. No one can give you evidence but Truth itself.

Truth is always good news, truth in all times means full good news; full Gospel. Whenever you choose falsehood, any falsehood, you cut yourself off from your share in truth/Gospel. Truth knows no falsehood but is pure. If you want to know the pure Gospel, persevere in the truth. When you choose a falsehood, there are those who stay and persevere still in truth, they have evidence you don't have and can not have for you are outside of truth. Also as long as you hold to your falsehood, you can not receive those evidence because evidences can not hold in falsehood, so it is futile to ask for evidence while you are in falsehood/darkness, even though they be with you, you can not see them.

[Ali_008]

Amigo, you've taken the permission to lie to the spouse totally wrong and you are utterly blowing it out of proportion. It's like you were looking for something to keep jumping on about Islam and your rabid research gave you zero results except this one law. I've mentioned in another thread, directed at you, that if the lie has haraam motives then that lie is considered a sin. As simple as that. Outside of marriage, even the "lies-that-don't-harm-anyone" are not allowed. Lying in all forms is forbidden.

The only lies that can be uttered are concerning matters that will forever remain between man and wife. Those matters don't concern anyone else and hence nobody is allowed to even get curious about it. Marriage is the most intimate bond on earth. It's a union for an entire lifetime and it not a cakewalk either. It requires commitment and effort to keep it fruitful.

If I say to my wife, whenever I look at you, all my worries disappear. Will that be a lie? Well, yes because the worries will only vanish when I deal with them. But does that sound like a lie to you? Does that sound like robbing a fellow human of the right to knowledge of truth?

Similar "lies" common amongst couples:

"I will love you till death and beyond".

"I'm nothing without you".

"You are my sunshine".

"You've stolen my heart".

"I'll get the stars for you".

"I'll go crazy without you".

And once again Amigo, nobody here is interested in your own philosophy. We are Muslims, we seek truth with proof. Waste neither your nor our time with your blabbering.

P.S. - Your siding with truth is so bleak as you yourself keep lying about "seeing" Christ.

[MustafaMc]

And once again Amigo, nobody here is interested in your own philosophy. We are Muslims, we seek truth with proof. Waste neither your nor our time with your blabbering.

Akhi, you are exactly correct. I presented my understanding of Truth to him and he replied with his typical gobbledy-gook riddles refusing to answer my simple question, "What is the Truth according to Amigo?" It is obvious that he is not here to discuss anything with anyone in a respectable, straight forward way. He has shown that he does not deserve the respect and decency that we have shown him. I will no longer read or reply to anything he says because he is now on my ignore list.

[Amigo]

P.S. - Your siding with truth is so bleak as you yourself keep lying about "seeing" Christ.

Those who are committed to pure truth see him as well.
Marriage is sacred indeed. True marriage is build on intimate truths. Intimate lies make the opposite; false marriage. It is the truth which validates everything, otherwhise they are not worthy being recognized as true, therefore not valid. And this is the Christian Faith, that Jesus is the truth and that whenever people desert truth, they desert Jesus. Wether it be out of fear or out of lusts, this is the Gethsemane moment when people make decision to follow Jesus or to desert him. Some desert him out of fear of suffering, others out of seeing truth as a weak force and preffering lies. In both cases, they will not know what happens beyone Gethsemane. Only those who stay with the truth will know. Only those who stay with the truth will have evidence of what happens beyond that point. It is futile for those who desert truth to ask for evidence, for evidence can not leave the realm of truth as it is part of it.


People condemned and killed Jesus because he is the truth and people are accustomed to killing the truth whenever it is making them unconfortable. Anyone who is commited to the truth has already evidence for this. And those who wants evidence, all they have to do is to commit seriously.

[Ali_008]

Jesus came with the truth. I agree to that. I love him, I respect him and I wish to be with him someday in heaven inshAllah but your philosophy serves no purpose. I've proved in the past with your posts as to how you keep contradicting yourself. And when questioned about it, all you have is even more contradictions. Asking you anything is drawing water from a mirage because your points are every time so pointless. You have never ever been able to prove even a single thing which you jabber to be the truth. Nobody here agrees with what you say. You might have made some negligible points which are compatible with the Qur'an (accidentally) but apart from that what you say is nothing. It is worthless. You don't have any backing for your claims. We don't believe you but we will, I say it again, WE WILL only if you can convince us with logical and physical proofs, inshAllah. Not your "amigolosophy" which according to me is a bigger waste of time than Satanism and I say that because at least Satan is real. Amigo, I won't give up replying to your posts, inshAllah, but I just want to warn you that by being so hollow you're only embarrassing yourself.

Btw, from your last post, do you mean to say that anyone who has used those "lies" in his/her marriage to express his affection is building a false marriage?

[Pygoscelis]

Those who are committed to pure truth see him as well.
Marriage is sacred indeed. True marriage is build on intimate truths. Intimate lies make the opposite; false marriage. It is the truth which validates everything, otherwhise they are not worthy being recognized as true, therefore not valid. And this is the Christian Faith, that Jesus is the truth and that whenever people desert truth, they desert Jesus. Wether it be out of fear or out of lusts, this is the Gethsemane moment when people make decision to follow Jesus or to desert him. Some desert him out of fear of suffering, others out of seeing truth as a weak force and preffering lies. In both cases, they will not know what happens beyone Gethsemane. Only those who stay with the truth will know. Only those who stay with the truth will have evidence of what happens beyond that point. It is futile for those who desert truth to ask for evidence, for evidence can not leave the realm of truth as it is part of it.


People condemned and killed Jesus because he is the truth and people are accustomed to killing the truth whenever it is making them unconfortable. Anyone who is commited to the truth has already evidence for this. And those who wants evidence, all they have to do is to commit seriously.

Perhaps english is not your first language? The above is pretty incoherent. I can't figure out what you are trying to say.

[ariginality]

People condemned and killed Jesus because he is the truth and people are accustomed to killing the truth whenever it is making them unconfortable. Anyone who is commited to the truth has already evidence for this. And those who wants evidence, all they have to do is to commit seriously.

From all of your posts Amigo, I can conclude that I've never seen someone talk so much and say so little. You talk about truth and evidence abstractly and bring none to the table, there's no substance. Furthermore, I can conclude that either you're single, not happy in your relationship, delusional, and/or a liar. But I am not here for relationship counseling so I will stop there. :omg:

[MustafaMc]

A thought occurred to me that Christian reliance upon believing that Jesus was God incarnate and their accepting of his sacrifice on the cross for their salvation is a lot like the "Get Out of Jail Free" card in the board game Monopoly. They point to us Muslims as trying to earn our way to Heaven with our good deeds, but they don't see that we rather rely upon the mercy of Allah and His forgiveness for our salvation. The bottom line is which has merit with Allah, 1) testimony that there is no god except Allah and Muhammad is His messenger, or 2) acceptance of Jesus as as God and as one's personal saviour?

Attachment 4473

[Crystal]

To reverse/undo the trespasses of Adam made when he was tried.

That is one of the biggest things that turned me away from Christianity - the idea that Adam & Eves sin is still with us today. I like the way in Islam no one is held responsible for other peoples sins - it makes more sense. It shows God is Just.

[MustafaMc]

Does the concept of original sin come from none other than Paul, the self-acclaimed Prophet to the Gentiles?

[Predator]

That is one of the biggest things that turned me away from Christianity - the idea that Adam & Eves sin is still with us today. I like the way in Islam no one is held responsible for other peoples sins - it makes more sense. It shows God is Just.

Christianity also says the same thing that no soul is responsible for others sins

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The problem is that christians want to make things easy for themselves so they can do whatever they like ,thats why they contradict this verse with another one and passed the buck onto Jesus and asking everyone to believe that Christ died for sins inorder to get "salvation

We Muslims are the true Christians as we are following whatever Jesus taught and did .

[Crystal]

Christianity also says the same thing that no soul is responsible for others sins

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The problem is that christians want to make things easy for themselves so they can do whatever they like ,thats why they contradict this verse with another one and passed the buck onto Jesus and asking everyone to believe that Christ died for sins inorder to get "salvation

That is true Airforce, but they will often come back with the illogical argument that Ezkiel is part of the Old Testament and the New Testament is more relevant which makes one wonder why they include the Old Testament in their various versions of the bible....

It seems harsh to criticise people who I was once like - I can only hope God opens their eyes to these contradictions too - I don't wish for anyone to believe in something that's false. May God guide us all.

[Grace Seeker]

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

From the Roman perspective, inciting insurrection because he allowed others to call him a king.

From the Jewish perspective, blasphemy because he made himself equal to God.

From the Christian understand of what God was doing, to reconcile the world to himself.

[Grace Seeker]

Does the concept of original sin come from none other than Paul, the self-acclaimed Prophet to the Gentiles?

No. Paul might be the most well known advocate of that concept, but it did not originate with him. It was a part of the understanding of many within Judaism at that time. And even Paul's understanding of it has been colored by Martin Luther so that most people today read Paul through Luther's eyes and end up with him saying more than I believe Paul actually intended to say on that subject.

[MustafaMc]

It was a part of the understanding of many within Judaism at that time.

Do you have OT verses to support the concept of everyone bearing the guilt of Adam's sin?

[Ramadhan]

From the Jewish perspective, blasphemy because he made himself equal to God.

Actually, Jesus (pbuh) never made himself equal to God.
It was the deceit by those rabbis and scribes who didn't want to lose control over jewish population because Jesus (pbuh) corrected many of their incorrect teachings and Jesus (pbuh) tried to bring back the lost sheep of Israel to the true message brought by previous prophets (pbut) and direct worship and relationships to God (swt)

The deceits is actually pretty similar to what church leaders are now doing. Christians go through myriads of popes, priests, nuns, pastors, ministers, etc to in order to worship another man.

[Ramadhan]

From the Christian understand of what God was doing, to reconcile the world to himself.

Did you borrow this from Amigo's gobbledy-gook riddles book?

Does this mean that christians believe that people punished God because God wanted to take over the world?

If you like, you can clarify, but that is my understanding from what you wrote above.

[Ali_008]

[MustafaMc]

Is there another verse in the Bible that even hints at 'original sin' other than Romans 5:12-17, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"?

This book was written by Paul. Is there a verse written by anyone else that elucidates the doctrine of original sin that makes it clear everyone bears the guilt of Adam's sin and must go to Hell because of it unless he accepts Jesus as God and the sacrifice he supposedly made on the cross?

Notice also that the Quran compares the man Adam to the man Jesus in 3:59 "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is."

[Insaanah]

In terms of core tenets of belief, I find the Qur'an to be the clearest and most unequivocal scripture. Anyone, Muslim or not, can pick up a translation, read it, and come away, knowing that Islamic beliefs are:

• Allah is One, without any associates whatsover in His Exclusive Divinity.
• He alone is worthy of being worshipped.
• He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, siblings, parents, cousins, nor relatives of any sort.
• He is eternal and does not die.
• There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
• He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
• There are no sharers or associates whatsoever in His Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

Jesus is one of the highly esteemed messengers sent by God, to guide and warn humanity, and all the Messengers of God must be believed in. They were all human, and not divine in any way, and neither did they ever claim to be.

Each person is responsible for his/her own sins, and will be accountable for them on the Day of Judgement.

God can forgive at will all those who repent sincerely and ask for forgiveness.

The Qur'an is clear on what Jesus (peace be upon him) was, and what he was not:

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:75)

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. (4:172)

And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honored slaves. (21:26)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)

.....And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31 part)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (5:116-117)

And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him. (2:116)

And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. (17:111)

And (we believe) that He--exalted be the glory of our Lord!--hath taken neither wife nor son. (72:3)

The truth is always clear, and not obscured by inconsistencies and contradictions. No convention of councils is needed to work out the core creed.

When you avoid truth, you also avoid evidence

You have summed yourself up concisely.

Peace.

[Salahudeen]

The crucifiction would not have happened if Man had not sinned. So God did not plan it anymore than He planned for Man to sin.
A simple parallel: You dont' plan to lift up your friend when he fell down unless you are planning to make him to fall down and the whole thing is a game for you. But when he fells, you lift him up if you can.

The reason for his death: Sin.
Sin is a murder of the Word of God. The physical/visible cruxifixion is just a culmination anf full manifestation of the relationship between God and Man.

So God created us thinking we would never sin and we would be like angels? :hmm: Why didn't he just make us into angels then if he expected us to never sin :hmm: or make a creation that was incapable of sinning if that's what he wanted.

[MustafaMc]

It seems harsh to criticise people who I was once like - I can only hope God opens their eyes to these contradictions too - I don't wish for anyone to believe in something that's false. May God guide us all.

I agree with you, Crystal. I hope that you are among those guided to the truth of Islam. Perhaps, I sometimes seem harsh as well, but it is a delicate balance between speaking what one believes is true and doing so in an unoffensive way. I think it best to not mince one's words, but rather speak straight forward what one believes is true with references to support those beliefs.

[Predator]

lol that was hilarious , Thanks for the laugh

[جوري]

lol.. that's indeed hilarious

[MustafaMc]

That guy reminded me of John Lennon. Surely, he is a comedian and the video was a parody making fun of Christians and perhaps even of the Muslim who was taking him 'seriously'. Honestly, though I was embarrassed to watch someone being made the fool.

[MustafaMc]

If you look up Steven Chilton (co-host of 'Jesus Chatline') on FaceBook, he made a lengthy post on Nov 15 where he says, "We'll be able to say whatever we want in the chat without giving away the joke."

We've been had, guys.

[جوري]

I don't think the muslim chap was taking him seriously at all I think it was all in good fun and he seemed like he was having great fun with it! I haven't found a Christian yet to date to offer better than that .. Without exception there's either drivel, logorrhea or some kind of incomprehensible padded nonsense .. I refer you to our dear friend amigo and his predecessors Hugo and grace et. al ..they don't do better in realtime either and were it not for our political correctness we'd have a guffaw everyday!

:w:

[MustafaMc]

were it not for our political correctness we'd have a guffaw everyday!

I try to be patient with Christians and other non-Muslims to the extent that they do not attack Islam and what we hold as precious. I do not see that it is appropriate for me to laugh at or ridicule others when I know that no one else in my family (except my wife) is a Muslim and except for the grace of Allah so also go I. I know first hand what it means to be a Christian and the sincerity they must feel, but I also know the joy of being shown the Truth and of being led out of the darkness of shirk. How can I laugh at those whom Allah has not yet willed to receive guidance?

[جوري]

How can I laugh at those whom Allah has not yet willed to receive guidance?

I don't know, something about 'All Muslims' are troubled and sinners made it easy for me..

:w:

[Burninglight]

Lol.. your god seems so meek & ineffectual and not involved with the creation to even anticipate their next step. God incapable of anticipating worst yet incapable of forgiving sans drama or poor equations

Don't mistaken meekness for weakness. Ineffectual? look at how many people identify with Christianity and compare. The Bible is still the best seller in the world. The cross may be foolishness to you, but to those of us that are being saved, it is the power of God.