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anvandarnamn
11-15-2011, 11:14 AM
A while ago I asked for help in this thread: /advice-support/134304515-help-me-believe.html
Since then my depression and angst has remained. So I'd like to continue where I left it. Where in the Al-Quran are the proofs of Allah's existence?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amat Allah
Allah says about Himself :" Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtile, the Aware. (103)" and in next verse He says:" Proofs have come unto you from your Lord, so whoso seeth, it is for his own good, and whoso is blind is blind to his own hurt. And I am not a keeper over you. (104)" Surat Al Anaam.
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll


With any art or science you start with a book and use your logic to see if there is truth/ logic and absence of contradiction in it..The very first word revealed to the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) from the Quran was 'Read' 'Iqra'a'-- I think that is very telling of the fundamentals of this religion..

all the best
I have read several interpretations of Al-Iqra or Al-Alaq, but I can't see any proof in it. What should I read next?
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SyrianFellow
11-21-2011, 06:51 AM
My knowledge is limited, but maybe someone else can help you. I'll comment to bump this post. :D
Reply

BlackMamba
11-26-2011, 05:08 AM
Salaam, here are some ayaat that Allah talks about his signs.
  • Surah Al Room from ayah 17 to around 30 (30:17-30) Allah is listing out several signs.
  • Surah Al-Naml from ayah 59 to 65 (27:59-65)
  • Surah Hajj ayah 73 (22:73)
  • Surah Al-Anbiyaa ayah 30 (21:30) this ayah talks about the creation of the universe. It is really amazing because this ayah is supported by the Big Bang theory as well. And there's no way any person knew about the big bang 1400 years ago.


This is just what I thought of in a few minutes but they are all literally all over the Quran, just read it.
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Ali_008
11-26-2011, 05:39 AM
إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ وَالْفُلْكِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ بِمَا يَنفَعُ النَّاسَ وَمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مِن مَّاءٍ فَأَحْيَا بِهِ الْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا وَبَثَّ فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ دَابَّةٍ وَتَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ وَالسَّحَابِ الْمُسَخَّرِ بَيْنَ السَّمَاءِ وَالْأَرْضِ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ
Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 164
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جوري
11-26-2011, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
A while ago I asked for help in this thread: /advice-support/134304515-help-me-believe.html
Since then my depression and angst has remained. So I'd like to continue where I left it. Where in the Al-Quran are the proofs of Allah's existence?I have read several interpretations of Al-Iqra or Al-Alaq, but I can't see any proof in it. What should I read next?
you need to go a step back & decide whether or not God exists before the nuances of how to go about defining your beliefs.

That's how it is done and that's how others have done it before you. Abraham (PBUH) didn't have a book:

6:76 to top


Sahih International
So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."


6:77 to top


Sahih International
And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."


6:78 to top


Sahih International
And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah .


6:79 to top


Sahih International
Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah ."


so when you quote me you must do it in context, yes books are important but how would a book work for someone who can't read for instance? You have to step back from that and reason about the origin of the world, whether or not you believe it came on its own and self assembled into different species, different elements, different seasons, different foods etc etc.etc. or whether there is a creator.. once you're absolutely sure about that portion can you go the next level..

best,








Reply

anvandarnamn
11-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Thank you for your replies! I will not waste your time writing sloppy answers based on what I already think. Instead, I will take my time and study the surahs suggested and contemplate on it, before I reply properly. I hope you have the patience to wait for feedback. Meanwhile, you are all welcome to provide more proofs and ways of changing perspective.

All the best to you!
Reply

Abz2000
11-26-2011, 03:15 PM
the context behind Iqra is delved into in detail here:

Reply

anvandarnamn
11-28-2011, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackMamba
Salaam, here are some ayaat that Allah talks about his signs.
  • Surah Al Room from ayah 17 to around 30 (30:17-30) Allah is listing out several signs.
  • Surah Al-Naml from ayah 59 to 65 (27:59-65)
  • Surah Hajj ayah 73 (22:73)
  • Surah Al-Anbiyaa ayah 30 (21:30) this ayah talks about the creation of the universe. It is really amazing because this ayah is supported by the Big Bang theory as well. And there's no way any person knew about the big bang 1400 years ago.


This is just what I thought of in a few minutes but they are all literally all over the Quran, just read it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Room
And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! (20) And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmeets from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect.(21)

Claiming Allah created mankind from dust is in no way proof that he actually did so.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Room
And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.(22)
The existence of heaven and earth does not prove anything, and neither does differences of languages and colors.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Room
And of His signs is your slumber by night and by day, and your seeking of His bounty. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who heed. (23)
I can't see how this proves anything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Room
And of His signs is this: He showeth you the lightning for a fear and for a hope, and sendeth down water from the sky, and thereby quickeneth the earth after her death. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who understand. (24)
How is weather proof of anything?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Room
And of His signs is this: The heavens and the earth stand fast by His command, and afterward, when He calleth you, lo! from the earth ye will emerge. (25)
Again, this is a claim, not proof. And so it goes on, but in Al-Room (30:17-30) I find no proof or evidence. If I missed it, please point it out to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Naml (30:59-65)
Say (O Muhammad): Praise be to Allah, and peace be on His slaves whom He hath chosen! Is Allah best, or (all) that ye ascribe as partners (unto Him)? (59) Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any God beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)! (60) Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any God beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not! (61) Is not He (best) Who answereth the wronged one when he crieth unto Him and removeth the evil, and hath made you viceroys of the earth? Is there any God beside Allah? Little do they reflect! (62) Is not He (best) Who guideth you in the darkness of the land and the sea, He Who sendeth the winds as heralds of His mercy? Is there any God beside Allah? High Exalted be Allah from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (63) Is not He (best) Who produceth creation, then reproduceth it, and Who provideth for you from the heaven and the earth? Is there any God beside Allah? Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful! (64) Say (O Muhammad): None in the heavens and the earth knoweth the Unseen save Allah; and they know not when they will be raised (again). (65)
I'm sorry, can you please point out what you claim to be proof?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Hajj (22:22-61)
Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (22) Lo! Allah will cause those who believe and do good works to enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will be allowed armlets of gold, and pearls, and their raiment therein will be silk. (23) They are guided unto gentle speech; they are guided unto the path of the Glorious One. (24) Lo! those who disbelieve and bar (men) from the way of Allah and from the Inviolable Place of Worship, which We have appointed for mankind together, the dweller therein and the nomad: whosoever seeketh wrongful partiality therein, him We shall cause to taste a painful doom. (25) And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying: Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration. (26) And proclaim unto mankind the pilgrimage. They will come unto thee on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every deep ravine, (27) That they may witness things that are of benefit to them, and mention the name of Allah on appointed days over the beast of cattle that He hath bestowed upon them. Then eat thereof and feed therewith the poor unfortunate. (28) Then let them make an end of their unkemptness and pay their vows and go around the ancient House. (29) That (is the command). And whoso magnifieth the sacred things of Allah, it will be well for him in the sight of his Lord. The cattle are lawful unto you save that which hath been told you. So shun the filth of idols, and shun lying speech, (30) Turning unto Allah (only), not ascribing partners unto Him; for whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, it is as if he had fallen from the sky and the birds had snatched him or the wind had blown him to a far-off place. (31) That (is the command). And whoso magnifieth the offerings consecrated to Allah, it surely is from devotion of the hearts, (32) Therein are benefits for you for an appointed term; and afterward they are brought for sacrifice unto the ancient House. (33) And for every nation have We appointed a ritual, that they may mention the name of Allah over the beast of cattle that He hath given them (for food); and your God is One God, therefor surrender unto Him. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the humble, (34) Whose hearts fear when Allah is mentioned, and the patient of whatever may befall them, and those who establish worship and who spend of that We have bestowed on them. (35) And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of Allah. Therein ye have much good. So mention the name of Allah over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks. (36) Their flesh and their blood reach not Allah, but the devotion from you reacheth Him. Thus have We made them subject unto you that ye may magnify Allah that He hath guided you. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the good. (37) Lo! Allah defendeth those who are true. Lo! Allah loveth not each treacherous ingrate. (38) Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - (40) Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events. (41) If they deny thee (Muhammad), even so the folk of Noah, and (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud, before thee, denied (Our messengers); (42) And the folk of Abraham and the folk of Lot; (43) (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers a long while, then I seized them, and how (terrible) was My abhorrence! (44) How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! (45) Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind. (46) And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon. (47) And how many a township to which I gave rispite through it was sinful! Then I grasped it. Unto Me is the return. (48) Say: O mankind! I am only a plain warner unto you. (49) Those who believe and do good works, for them is pardon and a rich provision; (50) While those who strive to thwart Our revelations, such are rightful owners of the Fire. (51) Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; (52) That He may make that which the devil proposeth a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease, and those whose hearts are hardened - Lo! the evil-doers are in open schism - (53) And that those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from thy Lord, so that they may believe therein and their hearts may submit humbly unto Him. Lo! Allah verily is guiding those who believe unto a right path. (54) And those who disbelieve will not cease to be in doubt thereof until the Hour come upon them unawares, or there come unto them the doom of a disastrous day. (55) The Sovereignty on that day will be Allah's, He will judge between them. Then those who believed and did good works will be in Gardens of Delight, (56) While those who disbelieved and denied Our revelations, for them will be a shameful doom. (57) Those who fled their homes for the cause of Allah and then were slain or died, Allah verily will provide for them a good provision. Lo! Allah, He verily is Best of all who make provision. (58) Assuredly He will cause them to enter by an entry that they will love. Lo! Allah verily is Knower, Indulgent. (59) That (is so). And whoso hath retaliated with the like of that which he was made to suffer and then hath (again) been wronged, Allah will succour him. Lo! Allah verily is Mild, Forgiving. (60) That is because Allah maketh the night to pass into the day and maketh the day to pass into the night, and because Allah is Hearer, Seer. (61) That is because Allah, He is the True, and that whereon they call instead of Him, it is the false, and because Allah, He is the High, the Great.
I see nothing here that resembles proof. Please point it out for me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Hajj (22:62)
(62) Seest thou not how Allah sendeth down water from the sky and then the earth becometh green upon the morrow? Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware.
It rains and grass grows, and therefore Allah exists. What kind of deduction is that?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Hajj (22:63-64)
(63) Unto Him belongeth all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Lo! Allah, He verily is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise. (64) Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
If everything on earth is subservient to man, I don't see how that is proof of Allah's existence. A moving ship also doesn't prove anything. And how would the heaven fall onto the earth do you propose? And if it's possible, what is there to say that there is an Allah to prevent it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Hajj (22:65-73)
(65) And He it is Who gave you life, then He will cause you to die, and then will give you life (again). Lo! man is verily an ingrate. (66) Unto each nation have We given sacred rites which they are to perform; so let them not dispute with thee of the matter, but summon thou unto thy Lord. Lo! thou indeed followest right guidance. (67) And if they wrangle with thee, say: Allah is best aware of what ye do. (68) Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein ye used to differ. (69) Hast thou not known that Allah knoweth all that is in the heaven and the earth? Lo! it is in a record. Lo! that is easy for Allah. (70) And they worship instead of Allah that for which He hath sent down no warrant, and that whereof they have no knowledge. For evil-doers there is no helper. (71) And when Our revelations are recited unto them, thou knowest the denial in the faces of those who disbelieve; they all but attack those who recite Our revelations unto them. Say: Shall I proclaim unto you worse than that? The Fire! Allah hath promised it for those who disbelieve. A hapless journey's end! (72) O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought! (73)
Again, I see many warnings and claims, but no proof.

format_quote Originally Posted by Surah Al-Anbiya (21:30)
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? (30)
Indeed, as you say the beginning of this surah is supported by the big bang theory. I wouldn't go so far as to call it proof, but it surely is evidence. Sadly, if no more evidence is provided, this evidence is outweighed by contradictions. For example, in Al-Room (30:19), it is claimed that Allah made man from dust. But here it is claimed that every living thing is made out of water. Which one is it?

Besides, even in the absense of contradictions, it's not very convincing. If the Quran was full of these claims, amazingly converging with modern science bit by bit, then I would surely be impressed. However, if these surahs are exceptions rather than rules, then I'm sorry to say that it's little more than Nostradamus, isn't it?


format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.
Surah # 2 - Al Baqarah - Verse 164
I don't get it. How is this proof? You can ask any atheist, and I'm sure they'll agree that there are clouds and rain and so on, but how does this prove anything? Don't get me wrong, it's very poetic and I'm sure it's even more beautiful in Arabic, but that's not what I was asking for.


format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

you need to go a step back & decide whether or not God exists before the nuances of how to go about defining your beliefs.

That's how it is done and that's how others have done it before you. Abraham (PBUH) didn't have a book:




Sahih International
So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."




Sahih International
And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."




Sahih International
And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah .



Sahih International
Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah ."


so when you quote me you must do it in context, yes books are important but how would a book work for someone who can't read for instance? You have to step back from that and reason about the origin of the world, whether or not you believe it came on its own and self assembled into different species, different elements, different seasons, different foods etc etc.etc. or whether there is a creator.. once you're absolutely sure about that portion can you go the next level..

best,
I'm sorry if I made you look bad somehow. My intention was simply to bridge one approach to another, inspired by you. I am a man of reason but I have failed to assert the existence of Allah by means of logic and empirical evidence. Thus I turn to the weakest link in myself, my knowledge of the Quran. You brought to my attention that Allah promised proof, and thus, if he exists, the proof must be there to be found. If you force me to make a decision now I would say that based on my knowledge of the world, Allah is unlikely to exist. Certainty is the mother of all fools, or so I've heard.

I'd like to remind you all that even though my tone can be somewhat agressive and straight-forward at times, I sincerly want to believe. I assure you my intentions are good.

Abz2000:
Does the video have any proof or evidence?

/hoping for more help/
Reply

جوري
11-28-2011, 12:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
I'm sorry if I made you look bad somehow.
ha?
My intention was simply to bridge one approach to another, inspired by you.
Hence I stated to quote me in context not snippets!

I am a man of reason but I have failed to assert the existence of Allah by means of logic and empirical evidence.
Alright, then proclaim yourself an atheist and don't waste your time or ours!

Thus I turn to the weakest link in myself, my knowledge of the Quran.
What is that knowledge you profess to have?
You brought to my attention that Allah promised proof, and thus, if he exists, the proof must be there to be found.
One can't prove anything, neither 'science' nor 'logic' work in 'absolutes' in science you can reject the null hypothesis or fail to reject it but you can't accept it!
Do you actually know 'science'? or is the opposite of religion science in your book though you may have little to no knowledge of how it actually works?

If you force me to make a decision now I would say that based on my knowledge of the world, Allah is unlikely to exist. Certainty is the mother of all fools, or so I've heard.
I don't think anyone is forcing you to do anything!

I'd like to remind you all that even though my tone can be somewhat agressive and straight-forward at times, I sincerly want to believe. I assure you my intentions are good.
I am tone deaf when we're writing!

best,
Reply

Dagless
11-28-2011, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
Claiming Allah created mankind from dust is in no way proof that he actually did so.
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
The existence of heaven and earth does not prove anything, and neither does differences of languages and colors.
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
I can't see how this proves anything.
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
How is weather proof of anything?
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
Again, this is a claim, not proof. And so it goes on, but in Al-Room (30:17-30) I find no proof or evidence. If I missed it, please point it out to me.
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
I'm sorry, can you please point out what you claim to be proof?
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
I see nothing here that resembles proof. Please point it out for me.
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
It rains and grass grows, and therefore Allah exists. What kind of deduction is that?
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
If everything on earth is subservient to man, I don't see how that is proof of Allah's existence. A moving ship also doesn't prove anything. And how would the heaven fall onto the earth do you propose? And if it's possible, what is there to say that there is an Allah to prevent it?
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
Again, I see many warnings and claims, but no proof.
For most people this is enough proof. Just seeing how the universe works is enough for me to believe there is a creator. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. Even things which can be proven empirically are not accepted by everyone. Are you waiting for God to reveal himself to you and explain the meaning of everything? I think you're out of luck if that's the case. Also, reading your comments I'm sure you'd put it down to some bad trip if it did happen.
If you're genuine, and not here to troll, then just ask for God's help. Only He can guide you.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-28-2011, 01:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
A while ago I asked for help in this thread: /advice-support/134304515-help-me-believe.html
Since then my depression and angst has remained. So I'd like to continue where I left it. Where in the Al-Quran are the proofs of Allah's existence?





I have read several interpretations of Al-Iqra or Al-Alaq, but I can't see any proof in it. What should I read next?
Greetings Av,

There is no possibility that an illiterate man who lived in the middle of a desert 1433 years ago could have written a book such as the Qur'an. It is not even possible it could have come from any human on this Earth. We are giving you translations of the verses of the Qur'an but to really appreciate its magnifcence one needs to read it in its original language.

Unlike the Bible and Old Testament that have been subject to innumerable translations, doubtful and spurious transmissions, and corruptions at the hands of clerics up till now (with the “gender sensitive” versions coming out these days), the Qur'an was transmitted to us in an unprecedented and unique manner according to rigorous rules of transmission. The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel, and the Prophet subsequently memorized the whole scripture.

Thousands of the Companions of the Prophet learned the Qur'an directly from the Prophet (pbuh). They memorized it and were known in Islamic history as huffaadh (the memorizers and preservers of the Qur'an). Moreover, a number of Companions wrote it down during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and it was compiled in its entirety immediately after his death.

The following generation of Muslims learned the Qur’an directly from the Companions. Thus the chain of teaching and learning through direct contact continued systematically, methodically, and meticulously until the present age.

Additionally, several of the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were appointed as scribes to record the words of the revelation directly from the Prophet himself on parchment, leather, or whatever else was available. The most famous of these scribes was Zayd ibn Thabit, who also memorized the entire Qur’an, and he formed with the others a community of huffaadh that can be compared to academic societies of our present time.

We know the Qur’an was recorded in totality during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and the different surahs (chapters) personally arranged by him. Many copies of the text were used for study and teaching, even in Mecca before the Hijrah, the migration to Medina.

The entire Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, and trusting the fact that many scholars knew it by heart, it was not collected in one volume. It was personally arranged by him, and the Muslims memorized it in the same order. The companion Uthman reported that whenever a new verse was revealed, the Prophet would immediately call a scribe to record it. He would instruct the person to put the specific verse or verses in a particular chapter.

Furthermore, every year during the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole Qur’an from beginning to end in its present-day arrangement, and everyday people could hear it from his own lips in the mosque. Its sequence is no mystery. Many of the Companions not only memorized it completely, they also wrote it down and even added commentary (tafseer) on their own personal copies. When the Prophet passed away, the whole Qur’an was already written down, but it was not yet compiled in book form.

During the rule of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, there was a rebellion among some distant Arab tribes that resulted in a series of fierce battles. In one particular battle, a number Companions who had memorized the Qur’an were killed. The Companion Omar worried that the knowledge of the Qur’an was in danger, thus he convinced Abu Bakr that the Qur’an should be compiled into book form as a means of preserving it once and for all.

Zayd bin Thabit was entrusted with this important task. Zayd followed strict methods in his compilation and had dozens of other huffaadh recheck his work to ensure its accuracy. Abu Bakr, who had also committed the entire Qur’an to memory, approved of the final product. After Abu Bakr passed away, the copy was passed to the Caliph ‘Omar, and then Uthman.

However as the Muslim world expanded into lands where the people spoke Arabic as a second language, the new Muslims had a difficult time learning the correct pronunciation of the text. The Caliph Uthman consulted other Companions, and they agreed that official copies of the Qur’an should be inscribed using only the pronunciation of the Quraysh tribe, the Arabic dialect that the Prophet spoke.

Zayd bin Thabit was again given this assignment, and three other huffaadh were assigned to help him in the task. Together, the four scribes borrowed the original, complete copy of the Qur’an, duplicated it manually many times over, and then distributed them to all of the major Muslim cities within the empire. Two of these copies still exist today: one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent.

One must keep in mind that in traditional learning in the Arab world, transmission was based upon an oral tradition as well as a written one; the Arabs (and later all Muslims) excelled in accurately reporting scripture, poetry, aphorisms, etc. through the generations without change. Similarly, the chain of huffaadh was never broken, and thus the Qur'an today has reached us in two forms: the memorized version transmitted through the scholarly chain, and the written version based upon the Companions’ initial recording.

If the Qur’an had been changed, there would be huge discrepancies between these two today, as the Qur’an has reached isolated (and sometimes illiterate) communities through the memorized form of transmission without the written form to correct it. No such discrepancies have ever been recorded or reported. In other words, isolated village A in African Mali and isolated village B in Afghanistan will both produce contemporary huffaadh reciting the same words of the Qur’an, though they did not learn from a similar printing of the scripture nor has there ever been a concerted international effort to rectify would-be discrepancies.

Allah has said in the Qur’an that He alone will protect His book, and indeed He has kept His promise. The Qur’an that we read today contains the same exact words that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) over 1430 years ago. This is quite a miracle, especially when you consider that NO other group of people can say that their book has not been subject to change by the time it reached the present generation.

Only the Qur’an has survived through the centuries unchanged, and the language in which it was revealed, classical Arabic, still enjoys practical usage around the world. While classic English of the 14th century can be understood by only a very few native English speakers, the Qur’an can be understood by the vast majority of Arabic-speaking Muslims. When compared to other scriptures, the Qur’an is unique in these two respects.

Furthermore, from the prolific arts that have accompanied Qur’anic learning and transmission, we can learn of the auspiciousness and honor with which the Muslims have traditionally held the Qur’an. The visual arts of calligraphy and binding, and the vocal art of recitation represent examples of such arts, and from them we can see that veracity of transmission would be understood as a fundamental aspect of Qur’anic reverence.

As regards the proofs within the Qur'an itself, they can be found in the following Qur’anic challenges:

Surah 17, verse 88:
*{Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.}*

And Surah 2, verse 23:
*{And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.}*


Unanimity of Muslim Scholars

The unanimity of Muslim scholars throughout the ages has also proved that the Quran we have is the same which the Prophet had. The same holds true for some unbiased Orientalist scholars who studied the Quran and found the style and the wording exactly the same as that which was common during the time of the Prophet himself.

Another point that needs reflection is that the Quran contains many scientific miracles that were proven to be correct only recently; it therefore stands to reason that had there been any change in the Quran, such verses or many of them, would have disappeared and even changed, and thus proven wrong.

Oral Transmission

Moreover, the Quran has been handed down through generations and centuries by means of oral transmission alongside the written text and that one of the unique merits of Muslims is their ability of maintaining an unbroken chain proving the authenticity of their texts throughout all these centuries.

Many people memorize the Quran in various parts of the world. All of them meet in one place at one time and recite the same Quran. This leaves no doubt that the Quran we have today is the exact one that was recited 1430 ago when the Prophet was alive.

Language of the Quran


Another logical proof is the decline in the level of the Arabic language and the spoken dialects which we find everywhere in the Arab world.

The deterioration in the level of the spoken Arabic, although affecting the tongues of people, did not in fact come close to the Quranic text. It is because of this that we find the Quranic text being unique in the way it is recited and the way it is written.

It is different in the written form as well as the oral form from the other written or oral texts.

Why? Because it was protected against the factors of time and space.

And for this job to be completed, Allah has enabled many scholars who specialized in the Quranic text whether in the written or the oral form and made their vocation in life to transmit it as exactly as it existed in the Prophet's life.

Quranic Manuscripts

Another physical proof showing the authenticity of the Quran is the large number of Quranic manuscripts dating back to the early times of Islam. One of the manuscripts existing today is the personal copy of the mus-haf (physical copy of the Quran) that belonged to Caliph Uthman Ibn Affan.

This copy still carries the traces of the blood of Uthman who was killed when he was reciting the Quran not long ago after the death of the Prophet. The manuscript has been examined not only by Muslims but also by non-Muslims, and it exists till today as standing evidence of the authenticity of the Quran.

By bringing this manuscript and comparing it with all other manuscripts that have been written through different generations in different parts of the Muslim world, we can see how exactly the same they are.

We can also notice the difference between the text written there and the normal way of writing Arabic words and the question will rise: why did not the normal way of writing affect the way of writing the Quranic text? The simple answer to this is that the uniqueness of the Quran made it very special and as a way of keeping this specialty is keeping it in the same formula it was firstly written.

Challenging the Quran

A long time ago, the Quran challenged people to produce something similar to one verse or ten verses or one surah of it. The challenge was not met and people are still unable to meet the challenge which means the text is still the same miraculous one that was recited during the Prophet's lifetime.

Of course, some biased non-Muslim Orientalists have tried their best to raise misconceptions regarding the authenticity of the Quranic text we have today.

These attempts have been very old indeed and all of them have failed to prove anything.

Consider the following verses:

Allah the almighty says in the Qur'an which was revealed over 1433 years ago:

"It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom."

This verse along with many others are just some of the reason's why many scientists in particular have converted to Islam along with many other people over the centurys especially now because more people are converting to Islam in Europe and America especially than any other religion in the world!

In the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands". And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

The Birth of a Human Being

Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are shown as evidence to man by God. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:

"It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?"
(The Qur'an, 56:57-59)


"Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen?"
(The Qur'an, 75:36-37)

As we have seen, the Qur'an informs us that man is made not from the entire semen, but only a small part of it. That the particular emphasis in this statement announces a fact only discovered by modern science is evidence that the statement is divine in origin.


"We created man from a mingled drop to test him, and We made him hearing and seeing."
(The Qur'an, 76:2)

"He has created both sexes, male and female from a drop of semen which has been ejected."
(The Qur'an, 53:45-46)

The wrapping of muscles over the bones

"(We) then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be God, the Best of Creators!"
(The Qur'an, 23:14)


The bones of the baby completing its development in the mother's womb are clothed with flesh during one particular stage.

Embryology is the branch of science that studies the development of the embryo in the mother's womb. Until very recently, embryologists assumed that the bones and muscles in an embryo developed at the same time. For this reason, for a long time, some people claimed that these verses conflicted with science. Yet, advanced microscopic research conducted by virtue of new technological developments has revealed that the revelation of the Qur'an is word for word correct.

These observations at the microscopic level showed that the development inside the mother's womb takes place in just the way it is described in the verses. First, the cartilage tissue of the embryo ossifies. Then muscular cells that are selected from amongst the tissue around the bones come together and wrap around the bones.

Three Stages of the Baby in the Womb

In the Qur'an, it is related that man is created in a three-stage process in the mother's womb.

"... He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate?"
(The Qur'an, 39:6)

As will be understood, it is pointed out in this verse that a human being is created in the mother's womb in three distinct stages. Indeed, modern biology has revealed that the baby's embryological development takes place in three distinct regions in the mother's womb.

God said in the Quran about one of the evil unbelievers who forbade the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, from praying at the Kaaba (Holy Mosque):

Let him beware! If he does not stop, We will take him by the Naseyah (front of the head), a lying, sinful Naseyah (from of the head)! [Holy Quran 96:15-16]

Why did the Quran describe the front of the head as being lying and sinful? Why didn't the Quran say that the person was lying and sinful? What is the relationship between the front of the head and lying and sinfulness?

If we look into the skull at the front of the head, we will find the prefrontal area of the cerebrum, in the area we call the forehead. What does physiology tell us about the function of this area? A book entitled Essentials of Anatomy & Physiology says about this area, "The motivation and the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur in the anterior portion of frontal lobes, the prefrontal area. This is a region of association cortex.." Also the book says, "In relation to its involvement in motivation, the prefrontal area is also thought to be the functional center for aggression..."

So, this area of the cerebrum is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior, and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. So, it is proper for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. So, it is proper to describe the front of the head as lying and sinful when someone lies or commits a sin, as the Quran says:

...A lying, sinful Naseyah (from of the head)!

Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years, according to Professor Keith L. Moore. [Scientific Miracles in the Front of the Head p. 41]


The Expansion of the Universe

In the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands". And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

Orbits

While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 37:38)

the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

The Protected Roof


The atmosphere only lets rays required for life reach the Earth. Ultraviolet rays, for example, make it to the world only partially. This is the most appropriate range to allow plants to make photosynthesis and eventually for all living things to survive.

In the Qur'an, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

This attribute of the sky has been proved by scientific research carried out in the 20th century.

The atmosphere surrounding the earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors big and small as they approach the earth, it prevents them from falling to earth and harming living things.

The Returning Sky



The verse 11 of Sura Tarik in the Qur'an, refers to the "returning" function of the sky.

"By Heaven with its cyclical systems."
(The Qur'an, 86:11)

This word interpreted as "cyclical" in Qur'an translations also has meanings of "sending back" or "returning".

As known, the atmosphere surrounding the Earth consists of many layers. Each layer serves an important purpose for the benefit of life. Research has revealed that these layers have the function of turning the materials or rays they are exposed to back into space or back down to the Earth. Now let us examine with a few examples of this "recycling" function of the layers encircling the Earth.

The Layers of the Atmosphere


One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.

14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers. Modern science, on the other hand, discovered the fact that the atmosphere surrounding the Earth is made up of "seven" basic layers only very recently.

The Earth has all the attributes that are needed for life. One of them is the atmosphere, which serves as a shield protecting living things. Today, it is an established fact that the atmosphere is made up of different layers lying on top of one another. Just as it is described in the Qur'an, the atmosphere is made up of exactly seven layers. This is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an.The Function of Mountains

"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them…"
(The Qur'an, 21:31)

In a verse, this role of the mountains is pointed out by a comparison with "pegs":

"Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs?"
(The Qur'an, 78:6-7)

Mountains, in other words, clench the plates in the Earth's crust together by extending above and beneath the Earth's surface at the conjunction points of these plates. In this way, they fix the Earth's crust, and prevent it from drifting over the magma stratum or among its plates. Briefly, we may liken mountains to nails that keep pieces of wood together.

"You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds."
(The Qur'an, 27:88)

The Movement of Mountains

This motion of the mountains is caused by the movement of the Earth's crust that they are located on. The Earth's crust 'floats' over the mantle layer, which is denser. It was at the beginning of the 20th century when, for the first time in history, a German scientist by the name of Alfred Wegener proposed that the continents of the earth had been attached together when it first formed, but then drifted in different directions, and thus separated as they moved away from each other.


"It is God Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His slaves He wills, they rejoice"
(The Qur'an, 30:48)

This is how the Quran described mountains. God said in the Quran:

Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? [Holy Quran 78:6-7]

Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word 'peg', since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century. [Geological Concept of Mountains p.5]

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. [Geological Concept of Mountains pp. 44-45]. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God said in the Quran:

And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you ...[Holy Quran 16:15]

Likewise the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960's
[Geological Concept of Mountains p. 5].

Could anyone during the time of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, have known of the true shape of mountains? Could any one imagine that the solid massive mountain which he sees before him, actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert? A large number of books of geology when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is above the surface of the earth. This is because these books were not written by specialists in geology. However, modern geology has confirmed the truth of the Quran's verses.


FIRST STAGE: " It is God Who sends the winds..."

Countless air bubbles formed by the foaming of the oceans continuously burst and cause water particles to be ejected towards the sky. These particles, which are rich in salt, are then carried away by winds and rise upward in the atmosphere. These particles, which are called aerosols, function as water traps, and form cloud drops by collecting around the water vapour themselves, which rises from the seas as tiny droplets.

SECOND STAGE: ".... which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps..."

THIRD STAGE: "…and you see the rain come pouring our from the middle of them"

The water particles that surround salt crystals and dust particles thicken and form raindrops, so, drops that become heavier than the air leave the clouds and start to fall to the ground as rain.

The clouds are formed from water vapour that condenses around the salt crystals or dust particles in the air. Because the water droplets in these clouds are very small (with a diameter between 0.01 and 0.02 mm), the clouds are suspended in the air, and spread across the sky. Thus, the sky is covered in clouds.

In another verse, the following information is given about the formation of rain:

"Have you not seen how God drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight."
(The Qur'an, 24:43)

Scientists studying cloud types came across surprising results regarding the formation of rain clouds. Rain clouds are formed and shaped according to definite systems and stages. The formation stages of cumulonimbus, one kind of rain cloud, are these:

1.STAGE, Being driven along: Clouds are carried along, that is, they are driven along, by the wind.

2.STAGE, Joining: Then, small clouds (cumulus clouds) driven along by the wind join together, forming a larger cloud

3.STAGE, Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the centre of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.(10)

We must remember that meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure and function, by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers etc. It is evident that God has given us a piece of information that could not have been known 1,400years ago.

The Seas not Mingling with One Another



One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:

"He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through."
(The Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that they come together yet do not mingle with one another at all, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension", the waters of neighboring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.

The Qur'an contains science that was only discovered recently take a look for yourself in this website:


http://scienceislam.com/quran_miracles.php

http://www.missionislam.com/quran/challenge.htm

http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/miracles_01_01.htm
Reply

Abz2000
11-28-2011, 04:58 AM
you already saw the proof - it's obvious to any who choose to see the facts over at least the past three decades over denial,

ask yourself the question: why do the heathen rage?

.......peace,
Reply

anvandarnamn
11-28-2011, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

ha?

Hence I stated to quote me in context not snippets!
Alright, then proclaim yourself an atheist and don't waste your time or ours!
Then I'm not sure you quite understand what my problem is. I don't want to be an atheist.

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
What is that knowledge you profess to have?
I was trying to say that I have very little knowledge of the Quran and that improving myself in that area might help me to believe, given that the Quran is miraculous.

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
One can't prove anything, neither 'science' nor 'logic' work in 'absolutes' in science you can reject the null hypothesis or fail to reject it but you can't accept it!
Do you actually know 'science'? or is the opposite of religion science in your book though you may have little to no knowledge of how it actually works?
I believe I do know scientific methods fairly well actually, and I don't merely see it as the opposite of religion. What you're referring to here is a statistical method called hypothesis testing where you specify a null hypothesis and an alternative hypothesis, for example:

H0: Men are taller than women
H1: Men are not taller than women

You could perhaps apply this method to religious ontology, but I'm not sure how. You could as you propose place the burden of proof on disbelievers by testing

N0: God exists
N1: God does not exist

But you might as well place the burden of proof on believers by testing

N0: God does not exist
N1: God exists

In either case, the tricky part is to come up with a test function, some way of quantifying the undependable variables, to finally end up with a p-value, that is a probability of God existing. I don't see how you want to do that? In fact, I can't say it seems appropriate, if at all possible, to use hypothesis testing for this question. But reducing science to hypothesis testing is just wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
I am tone deaf when we're writing!
I can see that now :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
you already saw the proof - it's obvious to any who choose to see the facts over at least the past three decades over denial,

ask yourself the question: why do the heathen rage?

.......peace,
What heathen? Something beginning in the early 80's? Denial of what? I really can't see your point.
Reply

anvandarnamn
11-28-2011, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
For most people this is enough proof. Just seeing how the universe works is enough for me to believe there is a creator. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. Even things which can be proven empirically are not accepted by everyone. Are you waiting for God to reveal himself to you and explain the meaning of everything? I think you're out of luck if that's the case. Also, reading your comments I'm sure you'd put it down to some bad trip if it did happen.
If you're genuine, and not here to troll, then just ask for God's help. Only He can guide you.
Well, that would be nice.
Reply

جوري
11-28-2011, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anvandarnamn
Then I'm not sure you quite understand what my problem is. I don't want to be an atheist.
It isn't our job to makeup your mind for you, you've a head on your shoulders to reason and you should use it!



I was trying to say that I have very little knowledge of the Quran and that improving myself in that area might help me to believe, given that the Quran is miraculous.
People find different aspects about the Quran miraculous, it is supposed to be a solitary journey not a communal effort. People can point out what is obvious to them and it may not be obvious to you. You need to ask GOD for guidance not people and reflect upon the universe before you decide to refine your search. There's no point of which religion when you're not even sure if God exists!



I believe I do know scientific methods fairly well actually, and I don't merely see it as the opposite of religion. What you're referring to here is a statistical method called hypothesis testing where you specify a null hypothesis and an alternative hypothesis, for example:

H0: Men are taller than women
H1: Men are not taller than women

You could perhaps apply this method to religious ontology, but I'm not sure how. You could as you propose place the burden of proof on disbelievers by testing

N0: God exists
N1: God does not exist

But you might as well place the burden of proof on believers by testing

N0: God does not exist
N1: God exists
The burden of proof lies on the disbeliever for they're starting with a double negative. They've not accepted the default conclusion to the universe in which they find themselves nor offered a scientifically sound alternative!
In either case, the tricky part is to come up with a test function, some way of quantifying the undependable variables, to finally end up with a p-value, that is a probability of God existing. I don't see how you want to do that? In fact, I can't say it seems appropriate, if at all possible, to use hypothesis testing for this question. But reducing science to hypothesis testing is just wrong.
Indeed, and hence my previous statement you're looking for 'proof' per the thread title which you've started and I have demonstrated and you seem to equally understand that 100% proof of anything is not possible even in science and those branches of it that are more esoteric like Psychiatry. We create an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared and you can use that methodology in your search of God if you so desire but as I had stated earlier, it is a solo journey!



I can see that now :)
swell!


best,
Reply

Ghazalah
11-28-2011, 11:08 PM
:mmokay: The proof of the existence of Allah taa'laa is in the Quran. It's not ambiguous, it is rather explicit. Now if you still fail to see the existence of Allah swt, then there is something wrong with you. Not the Quran, or this beautiful religion.

God will not pop out from the clouds and show Himself to you, you need to think with the brain He has blessed with you, in order to reflect on what He has created and believe that nobody who has existed or shall exist can match His creation. Hence why most of the Ayahs which are brought as proof talk about creation. But you, obviously, fail to see that. The only hope you have left is to ask Allah swt for guidance. Sincerely.
Reply

anvandarnamn
11-29-2011, 09:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
There is no possibility that an illiterate man who lived in the middle of a desert 1433 years ago could have written a book such as the Qur'an. It is not even possible it could have come from any human on this Earth. We are giving you translations of the verses of the Qur'an but to really appreciate its magnifcence one needs to read it in its original language.
This is what it boils down to, I suppose. If you are right, Mr Hamza, the Quran truly is magnificent. In any case I think Arab and Muslim culture and history is worthy of more respect than it is commonly admitted. As for the many verses put forward by you as proof, I feel like I would need a lifetime to investigate the accuracy and reliability of the claims. Let's hope I was sent here by Allah with the purpose of spreading Islam and that all my sufferings therefore have purpose. I'm afraid it's going to take a long time before I can respond to your post with any credibility but I want you to know that I truly appreciate your effort and that you have made a difference!
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Dagless
11-29-2011, 06:48 PM
Reminds me of:



This is just a teaser but it's worth watching the whole thing. A lot of his videos are very good.
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UmmuShaheed
01-06-2012, 08:05 PM
Bismillah
I encourage you to first have an open mind, and inshallah May allah guide you to the right path.

1st argument: Beginning of the Universe.
  • Cosmetologists agree that the universe began as something.
  • If the universe was eternal, there would be low energy
  • Everything that begins to exist has to have a cause, since their is a cause, it has to have attributions.
  1. Powerful
  2. Uncaused
  3. Intelligent
  4. Will
  5. immaterial

  • Whatever begins to exist has a cause (they don't just appear)
  • The universe began to exist (Big Bang theory)
  • Therefore the universe has a Cause
2nd Argument: Reasoning abilities
  • If we take god out, we cant trust our minds
  • Natural selection is only there for survivability, not for seeking the truth
  • The explanation for being able to trust yourself is Allah
  • It cant be explained naturalistically
  • Which goes in line with what the Quran tells us.
3rd Argument: Consciousness
  • There is no difference between a lump of sand and Einstein's brain, There both made up of carbon.
  • Leading Neuro-Science has it that something called conscious is manipulating your brain.
  • We have a consciousness that isn't directly connected to the brain.
  • Another thing that supports is:
Neuroplasticity: The power of your intentions (thinking , thoughts)
  • Studies show that through the power of thinking people are able to rewire their brains
  • The best explanation for that is Allah gave that to us.
Healing words = Positive Correlations.

4th Argument: Design

  • If there was an iphone in the middle of the dessert, Would you believe it Chance or Design?
  • The chance of that is near impossible so the only reasonable explanation would be that someone left it there, it was designed by someone else to be placed there. (whether they did it intentionally or not)
So the question now is, WHO is the designer?
Once you believe, there shouldn't be any doubt.

I hope that was helpful, excuse any mistakes i made inshallah, for they were not intentional.
Asalamu Caleykum
And for a more in depth explanation, Watch the video
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ayesha.ansari
01-11-2012, 05:03 AM
A.S.W.W, Send peace and blessing on prophet Muhammad PBUH. I think now you have enough resources from Quran Kareem to find about Allah SWT existence in it. Definitely Allah has discussed itself many times in Quran.
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syilla
01-13-2012, 05:49 AM
subhanallah it reminded me of brother al-ansar statement saying that existence of god can never be proven. It only comes from the hidayah of Allah swt.
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UmmuShaheed
01-30-2012, 12:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
subhanallah it reminded me of brother al-ansar statement saying that existence of god can never be proven. It only comes from the hidayah of Allah swt.
True, scientifically its proven that were not capable of having a reasonable argument for our existence.
and I agree sister, but I believe we have to make dacwah in anyway it can make sense to a non-muslim whether we use quranic verses, or science; they both point to the truth.
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