/* */

PDA

View Full Version : How important is it to study other religions?



missy
11-15-2011, 05:35 PM

Salaam,

I’m posting on the forum after ages (that’s another story why I did not or rather I couldn’t..), but today I felt it as a necessity, literally! :smile:

So, Alhamdullilah here’s what I gotta say…

About a couple of days back, this thing just struck me that one's religion is the most important thing in life because the God one worships and the religious beliefs that one holds make the center around which one's life revolves. It was like a kind of epiphany that I experienced.
Not just this life but the Hereafter too depends on the deeds that one does in his worldly life.
And it's really difficult to digest the fact that a hundred different religions exist on this earth and followers of each consider themselves to be on the truth. I know it sounds stupid but it's a sincere thought. It seems all fine to people…and yes it could be but what about the Hereafter? Every single soul has to face it. It can't be that each person will be resurrected to his own god, it isn't that there are different Paradises for people of different religions….It just can't be.
Only ONE religion is the TRUTH,….only one true faith,….and only those believing in that one truth will be saved from the Hell-Fire and granted Paradise! What about the rest?! Those millions of people who on earth claim to be on the truth, hoping for Paradise...those who think that their religion is the truth?
It's freakin' creepy!

We need to come to common terms. The Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists and those believing in thousands of other things should stop being ignorant and stubborn and at least for once try to learn and reflect on Islam.
One should have an open mind in order to accept the truth, how much ever bitter it might seem, and it is the truth that only one religion is God's and acceptable in His Sight!

[إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الإِسْلَـمُ]
“Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam…”
(The Holy Quran 3:19)





So, my honest question to those of you reading this is, taking all what I've pointed out into consideration and your own personal views,
How important do you think is studying religions other than the one you follow?


Any kind of input would be highly appreciated!
May God Almighty Guide us all to the Truth. Ameen.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Amigo
11-16-2011, 08:53 AM
I study other religions to understand better the people who follow them and the effect the religions have on them. The more I understand religions, the more predictable people who follow them are to me. I also it is easier to communicate with people once you know them better.
Reply

missy
11-16-2011, 05:23 PM
Peace Amigo,

Thanks for sharing your view. That’s a good way of getting to know how people are, provided your sources are authentic and you aren’t referring to anything anti the respective faith. That’s very common on the internet nowadays.

What about the Hereafter, you believe in it right?
Do you think that your religion will grant you Paradise? You got any evidences for it?
By evidences I mean sound, non-contradictory, consistent evidences.

You know, you gotta be very careful here, I mean you should always strive to be in pursuit of the truth and if at all there are things about your faith that are speculative, not that you are skeptical about it but even if there are chances that there might be discrepancies in it then you should be receptive of all the possible knowledge you can get.
I just wanna say that the studying of other religions should be with the sincere intent to get to the truth…until you’ve reached it of course.
Reply

Perseveranze
11-16-2011, 06:11 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I study other religions to further appreciate the beauty of my own religion. There's just no competition, Alhamdulillah.


“We were of the most disgraced of people, and Allah granted us honor with this Islam. Now, whenever we seek honor in other than that which Allah honored us with, Allah shall disgrace us (once again).” — ‘Umar b. al-Khattab
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
MartyrX
11-16-2011, 07:59 PM
I study other religions. All religions are fascinating to me.
Reply

missy
11-16-2011, 09:23 PM
wa'alaikumussalam wR. wB,

format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I study other religions to further appreciate the beauty of my own religion. There's just no competition, Alhamdulillah.
That's a really nice thought MashaAllah. Whenever I research on other religions, I always get the feeling that I'm on the Truth, Alhamdullilah. But studying other faiths in order to increase the appreciation of Islam and the realization that we are so Blessed is great. In this way one can increase his/her Eeman and at the same time learn about others, the similarities and the differences etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX
I study other religions. All religions are fascinating to me.
True that. With all the fantasies that the hundreds of religions have invented and are living a make-believe world, it definitely gotta be fascinating! haha

But if one finds this field of study interesting then, you know, we should try to spread the message of Islam more by addressing the differences of the respective faith and make all efforts to dialogue with them in a good manner.
It's really sad that we have Christian friends and we never make a mention of God to them. It shouldn't be that way, rather we should discuss Islam frequently with them. Especially with friends, who trust us. It wouldn't be fair if we don't let them know, because it's the Hereafter that every soul has to face.


May Allah SWT Guide all of us to the Truth. Ameen.
Reply

MustafaMc
11-17-2011, 01:57 AM
I grew up as a Protestant Christian (Baptist) and I became a member of the Church of Christ as a fellow college student led a Bible study and I saw they tried to follow the Bible more closely than the Baptist. I converted to Islam about 3 years later (30 years ago) after reading parts of the Quran. For the past several years I have worked with a few Catholics and I have asked them about their religion, but ,strangely, they haven't asked me about Islam. I have read a good portion of the Bible and feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the New Testament in particular and know pretty well what Christians believe. I had a rabbi in my home to discuss religion even though we didn't get very far as she talked about Jewish holidays and wanted to discuss my views on shariah.

I am a curious person and I would like to know what other people believe. I think most people are comfortable in their own religion and don't really care to learn anything about another religion. I personally don't see it would be helpful for a Muslim to learn about other religions unless they want to be able to discuss religion with people of other faiths with the intention of sharing the message of Islam with them.
Reply

serena77
11-17-2011, 02:05 AM
i studied religions in general not just christian or otherwise when i first started my religious journey... i still enjoy the reading of all religions because it furthers my knowledge and i can still learn things from others, even though i know where my path is going.
Serena
Reply

MustafaMc
11-17-2011, 05:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by serena77
i still enjoy the reading of all religions because it furthers my knowledge and i can still learn things from others, even though i know where my path is going.
In learning from others, do you consider you learn different aspects of the Truth from different religions or do you learn where they are astray and deviate from the Truth? Can you share where your path is directed?
Reply

missy
11-17-2011, 05:55 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
. I think most people are comfortable in their own religion and don't really care to learn anything about another religion.
Yeah, I agree. Recently, another sister and I asked one of our Christian friends about the Eucharist and she didn’t seem quite comfortable even discussing her own faith. Well, Allah SWT Knows Best what her intentions are but usually some people, the Non-Muslims, don’t really want to speak about other faiths especially Islam.
Maybe they have some kinda false stereotypes which prevent them from doing so.

So, whenever I come across any Christian or Hindu or Buddhist who actually sincerely seek the truth and strive to learn Islam, keeping their notions aside, I really get inspired.


format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I personally don't see it would be helpful for a Muslim to learn about other religions unless they want to be able to discuss religion with people of other faiths with the intention of sharing the message of Islam with them.
I agree. One doesn’t necessarily have to study other religions, in order to preach Islam. It can also be done by just conveying the true message to them, without having to delve into their beliefs and concepts. Nevertheless, being well-acquainted with at least the major religions like Christianity, Hinduism, etc. would prove as an asset in effective preaching and in inter-faith discussions. I mean as a comparative study, like finding out what similarities the respective faith has with Islam and what the differences are. That’s what’s required.


format_quote Originally Posted by serena77
i studied religions in general not just christian or otherwise when i first started my religious journey... i still enjoy the reading of all religions because it furthers my knowledge and i can still learn things from others, even though i know where my path is going.
Serena
It’s nice to see such an open-minded attitude. MashaAllah.
Reply

Tyrion
11-17-2011, 06:25 AM
Yeah, it's absolutely necessary for most people nowadays to study other religions (although I'd put more priority on the 3 Abrahamic religions). It's especially important for people who desire to engage with people of other faiths, although from what I've seen this doesn't happen very often. I can't tell you how often I see well meaning Muslims getting into heated debates with Christians without actually knowing a thing about Christianity... (and no, Christianity as seen through the lens of Islam doesn't count in most debate topics!) And then there's the (usually) well meaning Christian who decides to try and "save" the Muslim without knowing a thing about Islam... In all of these cases, people just end up looking like fools and doing the opposite of what they set out to do, and all of it could be avoided if people just took the time to educate themselves.

Studying different religions is also important for people who are just beginning to look at life's big questions. A person who decides they want to be religious and live for God should have at least made the effort to try and understand different faiths, just to make a more informed decision and be more firm in the choices he makes.

format_quote Originally Posted by missy
One should have an open mind in order to accept the truth, how much ever bitter it might seem, and it is the truth that only one religion is God's and acceptable in His Sight!

[إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الإِسْلَـمُ]
“Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam…”
(The Holy Quran 3:19)
Odd that you'd bring this up... I've actually been pondering over this verse (and what it might mean) for a while now and I'm starting to now see it in a slightly different light... It's clear that as far as religions/methods of worship go, Islam is the only one that Allah will acknowledge... But I'm not so sure if that necessarily means that the good of those who didn't have Islam will go unaccepted. Especially for those who didn't have a proper chance to learn Islam... There's a lot to say on this topic, and I'm having trouble gathering my thoughts enough to express my opinions... I guess what I'm trying to say is that things like salvation typically aren't as black and white as people want to make them... I hope that made sense.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-17-2011, 07:36 AM
The more I study other religions, the more I realize how far more superior Islam is, and affirms it as the truth.
Reply

Amigo
11-17-2011, 07:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Peace Amigo,
Peace to you as well!


format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Thanks for sharing your view. That’s a good way of getting to know how people are, provided your sources are authentic and you aren’t referring to anything anti the respective faith. That’s very common on the internet nowadays.
Yes, it is important to check what source you are using to understand a religion. I have friends from many religions, also, I check out their sources and real lives realities and grow in understand:)


format_quote Originally Posted by missy
What about the Hereafter, you believe in it right?
Do you think that your religion will grant you Paradise? You got any evidences for it?
By evidences I mean sound, non-contradictory, consistent evidences.
I believe in God and that I will dwell in his presence forever if I remain faithful.
Religion is not God, it is not religion that grant Paradise. God grants Paradise.
Yes, God's presence in my life is evidence. God is faithful, never changes.
He lights up my path, so I notice inconsistancies and distinguish the perfect from the imperfect, or what's from men and what's from God. With his presence I taste Paradise already:)


format_quote Originally Posted by missy
You know, you gotta be very careful here, I mean you should always strive to be in pursuit of the truth and if at all there are things about your faith that are speculative, not that you are skeptical about it but even if there are chances that there might be discrepancies in it then you should be receptive of all the possible knowledge you can get.
I just wanna say that the studying of other religions should be with the sincere intent to get to the truth…until you’ve reached it of course.
Yes.
Pursuit of truth is my spiritual life.
Religions are expressions of understanding of God by men. I study them for the love of God and of men.
Reply

missy
11-17-2011, 06:51 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Yeah, it's absolutely necessary for most people nowadays to study other religions (although I'd put more priority on the 3 Abrahamic religions). It's especially important for people who desire to engage with people of other faiths, although from what I've seen this doesn't happen very often. I can't tell you how often I see well meaning Muslims getting into heated debates with Christians without actually knowing a thing about Christianity... (and no, Christianity as seen through the lens of Islam doesn't count in most debate topics!) And then there's the (usually) well meaning Christian who decides to try and "save" the Muslim without knowing a thing about Islam... In all of these cases, people just end up looking like fools and doing the opposite of what they set out to do, and all of it could be avoided if people just took the time to educate themselves.
Well said bro! That’s what my whole point is too.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Studying different religions is also important for people who are just beginning to look at life's big questions. A person who decides they want to be religious and live for God should have at least made the effort to try and understand different faiths, just to make a more informed decision and be more firm in the choices he makes.
Yeah, sometimes it’s really difficult to maintain the right intentions. Our main purpose on earth is affirmed by God Almighty Himself in the Holy Quran. Nowadays, in order to bring alone this thought to our mind that we’ve been given life for bigger purposes than just “living it” is equivalent to being “philosophical”. No, really. This is the present state of our nation; everybody is just preoccupied with living their lives and enjoying while they can. *sighs*
Well, Allah Knows Best.


format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
But I'm not so sure if that necessarily means that the good of those who didn't have Islam will go unaccepted. Especially for those who didn't have a proper chance to learn Islam...
How I look at this verse is that, since Allah SWT is The Most Just, He won’t deprive anyone of the rewards they deserve. But, the question is, What are the prerequisites for deserving Reward? All that I could think of…
1) A person should be a Muslim.
2) The good deeds done should be done only for the pleasure of Allah SWT and not for personal gains like fame or respect or big bucks.
3) The good deeds should be legal according to the Shariah.
It’s just like the rules you have on a soccer field…a player is not supposed to deliberately push, or make his opponent trip, foul language is not allowed etc. So if anyone falls into any of the Do-not’s of soccer, the referee immediately gives them a yellow card or sometimes directly a red and they are out of the game! Even if they might have scored many goals for their team during the match they are not spared. If the poor guy pleads, the referee wouldn’t even care to look at his face.

In fact this cannot even be compared to the Law of Allah SWT. His Majesty is much much above the trivial affairs of this world.

And so is His Mercy. The Prophet (SAW) said, “God will accept His slave’s repentance so long as the death rattle has not yet reached his throat.” (Tirmidhi 3537)
Associating partners with Allah SWT is a huge sin. As far as we can reason and what the Quran and Hadiths support is that the only unforgivable sin in the sight of Allah SWT is Shirk, unless the person repents before breathing his last. Beyond that Allah Knows Best.

As for those who supposedly don’t get proper chance for learning Islam,…..But this is no excuse because it could be that they either did not avail the opportunities that they got by just ignoring it or that they were stubborn in their deviant beliefs. And I don’t think that there exist people, specifically in this century, who can complain of lack of encounter with Islam. Especially Islam!

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I guess what I'm trying to say is that things like salvation typically aren't as black and white as people want to make them... I hope that made sense.
“Salvation”? ..Er….I don’t see the link with the rest of the post.... :-\

However, yeah, the Christians do consider the belief in the atonement as the “only” means to salvation. For them it’s like if you wanna be saved then you got to believe in the Atonement.
The Christians on this forum would be able to explain much better.

I kinda find their concept of Salvation outlandish…I mean, the events that led to it…the “visionary experience” of Paul, that he supposedly witnessed the “resurrected” Jesus, He started reasoning the whole thing backwards (from Jesus’ supposed manner of death to his miraculous birth)…He interpreted the vision like...God raised jesus from the dead, making him realize that Jesus cannot be cursed (because he was a jew, he hadn't accepted Jesus as God's Messiah) by god but blessed….He wondered, but why was he crucified?...then he reasoned further,..the death must have a divine purpose. If he was under the blessing of god, he couldn’t die for a mistake done by him so he should have died for the sins of others…This, in fact is the history of this concept being transmitted from its founder Paul to this day.

Those better informed are welcomed to correct me, if I’m wrong.
Reply

missy
11-17-2011, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
I believe in God and that I will dwell in his presence forever if I remain faithful.
Religion is not God, it is not religion that grant Paradise. God grants Paradise.
Yes, God's presence in my life is evidence. God is faithful, never changes.
He lights up my path, so I notice inconsistancies and distinguish the perfect from the imperfect, or what's from men and what's from God. With his presence I taste Paradise already
Okay, it’s obvious that only God Almighty Will Grant Paradise to whomever He Wills. And God is Most Just and hence He will Fulfill His Promise, i.e., Paradise for the true believers.

Just acknowledging the fact that God “exists” won’t make you faithful to God. If you truly believe He exists and love Him then you should do what He has commanded you to do. And for understanding God well and what he has commanded, you need to believe in God’s Religion and not expect to be divinely inspired or something.
Just any religion won’t make you have complete faith in God, neither will your sole “acceptance” of God’s existence make you completely faithful. Because TRUE faith in God Almighty requires us to believe in the complete TRUTH. To bear witness to the one and only Truth.

You say God shows you the true path, and that’s how you differentiate between the right and the wrong, you just have to believe that He exists, and religion is simply man’s perception of God. Both Muslims and Christians, for that matter believe in God’s Presence. It can’t be that both the religions are correct. One HAS to be wrong. Then does this mean that God guides some to the truth and misleads the others? Because there is only ONE true religion.

Well as a matter of fact, I can’t stop you from keeping your beliefs the way you think is right. Unless, you willingly consider what I and other Muslims have got to say and with an open mind try to reflect on what truly Islam is and what your faith is and how the two differ.


format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Yes.
Pursuit of truth is my spiritual life.
Religions are expressions of understanding of God by men. I study them for the love of God and of men.
Religion to you is expression of “man’s understanding” of God?! This would result into a hotchpotch of concepts. It doesn’t make sense to say that Religion is mere perception of ideas! ^o)


May I ask you if you have ever read the Holy Quran? Not entirely, but at least parts of it? If you did, How do you find them? inspiring?
Reply

Amigo
11-18-2011, 06:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Just acknowledging the fact that God “exists” won’t make you faithful to God. If you truly believe He exists and love Him then you should do what He has commanded you to do. And for understanding God well and what he has commanded, you need to believe in God’s Religion and not expect to be divinely inspired or something.
Any belief in God without God's inspiration is a false belief in God.

format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Just any religion won’t make you have complete faith in God, neither will your sole “acceptance” of God’s existence make you completely faithful. Because TRUE faith in God Almighty requires us to believe in the complete TRUTH. To bear witness to the one and only Truth.
Correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Well as a matter of fact, I can’t stop you from keeping your beliefs the way you think is right. Unless, you willingly consider what I and other Muslims have got to say and with an open mind try to reflect on what truly Islam is and what your faith is and how the two differ.
I have been reading and listening, I know how the two differ. Here is the fondemental differance and origin of all differances:
Islam proclaims that it is okay to lie sometimes.
Christianity proclaims that it is never okay to lie.
Now, consider the implication of this when you speak of 'complete Truth' and related aspects.
Reply

missy
11-18-2011, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
I have been reading and listening, I know how the two differ. Here is the fondemental differance and origin of all differances:
Islam proclaims that it is okay to lie sometimes.
You’re hugely mistaken here.

Lying is strictly prohibited in Islam! In fact it is mentioned as a characteristic of the hypocrites.
God Almighty states in the Holy Quran,
It is those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, that forge falsehood: it is they who lie!”
[Surah an-Nahl 16:105]

Also,
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)

What I can derive from this “misconception” of yours is that you are interpreting certain “specific” rulings out of context.

That is, yes there are ‘exceptions’ to this prohibition but that doesn't make it applicable to all situations....

Lying is permissible in three cases: war, when a person’s life is at stake; reconciling between two disputing parties; and a husband lying to his wife or vice versa for the sake of maintaining love and harmony.
It was narrated that Asma’ Bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘It is not permissible to tell lies except in three (cases): when a man speaks to his wife in a way to please her; lying in war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1939)
This hadeeth was classed as hasan by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jami’, 7723)

Aren't the above situations justifiable enough as exceptions?


format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Christianity proclaims that it is never okay to lie.
I don't completely agree, though I admit I've come across specific verses in the Bible that prohibit lying.

Cuz, If Christianity says that lying is a sin then why did Abraham lie about his wife Sarah and she supported him by herself lying too?! Gen 20:1-18

And Isaac lied too…. Gen. 26:6-11, wow, it’s pretty much the same situation that his dad was in! ^o)

His son Jacob and wife Rebekah deceived him by lying…Gen. 27:6-35

Was it like some kind of a hereditary thing? o_O


And moreover all three were Prophets who are supposed to be most pious and truthful…
We Muslims too, believe that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are among the Prophets sent by God Almighty but of course their stories in the Holy Quran are different from the Biblical stories.


Now, which is more likely to be The Truth, The Holy Quran or the Bible?
Reply

Amigo
11-19-2011, 01:32 PM
A lie is a lie, it is not truth and is always opposed to Truth by nature...
Falsehood is falsehood, it leads to false realities.
Falsehood for peace gives false peace.
Falsehood for love gives false love.
Falsehood for harmony gives false harmony.

Perseverance in truthfullness leads to the fullness of truth.
Any falsehood is a deviation and leads to false truths/realities...perdition.
This is the one Way: Truth, truthfullness. It corresponds to the one true Faith in God who never abandon those who persevere in truth and honor Him by their truthfulness. A lie is produced by lack or weakness in faith.

Resolve not to lie, not matter what. Renounce all falsehood without any exception. You will see that you will suffer, but Christ will come to meet you and comfort you. He will then explain to you the Bible and the prophets and lead you into the fullness of Truth.

All those who persevere in truthfullness know one common thing: the Cross. Calvary. They meet Christ.
The Bible, its prophets, and all realities can only be understood at the feet of the Cross.
Christianity is absolute Faith in the Truth. Truth is sent to Death by men, but even death could not contain it, instead death itself died. Therefore, one who dwell in the truth has nothing to fear.
Reply

Tyrion
11-19-2011, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
A lie is a lie, it is not truth and is always opposed to Truth by nature...
Falsehood is falsehood, it leads to false realities.
Falsehood for peace gives false peace.
Falsehood for love gives false love.
Falsehood for harmony gives false harmony.

Perseverance in truthfullness leads to the fullness of truth.
Any falsehood is a deviation and leads to false truths/realities...perdition.
This is the one Way: Truth, truthfullness. It corresponds to the one true Faith in God who never abandon those who persevere in truth and honor Him by their truthfulness. A lie is produced by lack or weakness in faith.

Resolve not to lie, not matter what. Renounce all falsehood without any exception. You will see that you will suffer, but Christ will come to meet you and comfort you. He will then explain to you the Bible and the prophets and lead you into the fullness of Truth.

All those who persevere in truthfullness know one common thing: the Cross. Calvary. They meet Christ.
The Bible, its prophets, and all realities can only be understood at the feet of the Cross.
Christianity is absolute Faith in the Truth. Truth is sent to Death by men, but even death could not contain it, instead death itself died. Therefore, one who dwell in the truth has nothing to fear.
You remind me of this guy:



Riddle me this...
Reply

missy
11-19-2011, 09:55 PM
^ LOL!

That comic guy...The Riddler...haha....times when I used to watch Batman with admiration....lol
Reply

missy
11-19-2011, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
A lie is a lie, it is not truth and is always opposed to Truth by nature...
Falsehood is falsehood, it leads to false realities.
Falsehood for peace gives false peace.
Falsehood for love gives false love.
Falsehood for harmony gives false harmony.

Perseverance in truthfullness leads to the fullness of truth.
Any falsehood is a deviation and leads to false truths/realities...perdition.
This is the one Way: Truth, truthfullness. It corresponds to the one true Faith in God who never abandon those who persevere in truth and honor Him by their truthfulness. A lie is produced by lack or weakness in faith.

Resolve not to lie, not matter what. Renounce all falsehood without any exception. You will see that you will suffer, but Christ will come to meet you and comfort you. He will then explain to you the Bible and the prophets and lead you into the fullness of Truth.

All those who persevere in truthfullness know one common thing: the Cross. Calvary. They meet Christ.
The Bible, its prophets, and all realities can only be understood at the feet of the Cross.
Christianity is absolute Faith in the Truth. Truth is sent to Death by men, but even death could not contain it, instead death itself died. Therefore, one who dwell in the truth has nothing to fear.
Hey bro Amigo,

That doesn't answer my questions! :ermm:
Reply

Amigo
11-20-2011, 06:26 AM
I did. Walk in the truth and remain in it. Then the Bible, the Koran, and the Prophets will be explained to you!
Reply

missy
11-20-2011, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
I did.
Nuh-uh! I beg to differ.
You've simply quoted few lines of poetry! which i didn't understand either.

Ah, Well.

C'est la vie.
Reply

Amigo
11-20-2011, 04:47 PM
You are being faithfull to your Faith in exceptions to Truth, so it is not expected of you to have full understanding until you embrace the Truth in its fullness (that is without exceptions).
Reply

MustafaMc
11-20-2011, 04:49 PM
Missy, has your study of other religions benefited you in you deen? If so, how?
Reply

Insaanah
11-20-2011, 07:30 PM
On the topic of truth and falsehood,

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (Translation of Qur'an, 19:88-93)

Praise be to Allah, Who hath revealed the Scripture unto His slave, and hath allowed therein no crookedness:
[He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward, In which they will remain forever
And to warn those who say, "Allah has taken a son."
They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie.(18:1-5)

It is good that Allah has told us something about religions in the Qur'an. In particular how the People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) veered off the straight path they were shown. In a certain situation once, many years ago, I heard the name of a Spanish man whose name was Jesus. And I commented what a beautiful name that was. A Christian replied to me that it was blasphemous, because Jesus was God. I said, but I thought you believed he was son of God? This was the first I'd heard of Jesus supposedly being God. Or was it?

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)

I had neglected to notice that Allah had mentioned in the Qur'an that they erroneously believed both that Jesus (peace be upon him) was son of God, and also that they believed he was God.
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 12:22 AM
:sl: bro MustafaMc,

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Missy, has your study of other religions benefited you in you deen? If so, how?
Um…basically,…why I’m interested in interfaith studies is because I feel I should stand up for the Truth, make it known to people and be able to answer those who blaspheme Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAW).
I especially like to research more on Judaism and Christianity because they have a lot in common with Islam.

So far, my experience with it….Alhamdullilah, I’ve learned many things that I never knew and I can relate to it more now. Although, my method's nothing more than browsing hundreds of websites…and just bookmarking the useful ones for future reference…I really don’t go that deep in such stuff, cuz most of the time I can’t retain it even if I try my best to do so…(I’m bad at learning answers too, that explains it!..lol)
Spiritually speaking, I feel good about it. Alhamdullilah. It encourages me to learn Islam more and be a good practicing Muslim cuz it makes me realize that I have the TRUTH and that Allah SWT has Guided me and shown me the Straight Path.

I’ve been able to explain; very rarely though, some stuff to my Christian friends…It wasn’t all that great…but still I do try, Alhamdullilah. I usually find it difficult to start up such topics with friends and neighbors, it takes an extra mile.

But ultimately, a Muslim’s main goal lies in pleasing the Almighty, Allah SWT.
Alhamdullilah!! :statisfie

:wa:
Reply

MustafaMc
11-21-2011, 02:01 AM
Wa alaikum assalam, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu, Ukhti Missy, please excuse my lack of manners and for being blunt. You provided a good answer and would have been exactly what I would have written.

The nature of Jesus is the central issue to Christianity as to whether he was a man, Son of God or God in human flesh. No Muslim would disagree with the first part of Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." I believe it was Paul who was the primary one to exalt Jesus above the status of prophet, messenger and servant of Allah and deify or make him into God. The first two chapters of Galatians were particularly revealing to me that Paul claimed to have received a revelation from God. In other words he claimed to be a Rasool Allah that Christians take for granted without serious evaluation of his claim. There is an article "Paul's Gospel" written by a Christian, William Newell, http://www.biblicist.org/bible/paul.shtml that illustrates my perspective. I had watched a show by a TV evangelist, Les Feldick, who basically reiterated this article. I actually wrote him a letter, but never heard back from him.
Reply

Eric H
11-21-2011, 03:49 AM
Greetings and peace be with you missy;

There is no compulsion in religion, and God chooses whom he wills, but it seems that the same God has chosen you through Islam and me through Christianity.

It seems that God has put a great barrier between us for some reason, in order that I should get on with you, it seems to imply that I should try and convert you first.

Somehow I feel that God has given us a greater purpose to strive for, and that is to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship, despite all our differences.

Eric
Reply

Ramadhan
11-21-2011, 07:00 AM
Salam Erik,

I am all for greater interfaith friendships, but I have to take issue with this opinion:

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
it seems that the same God has chosen you through Islam and me through Christianity.
If you believe what you are saying, then God also has chosen atheists, hindus, buddhist, agnostics, etc. This means God that you believe in is not Just because he will punish those who doesn't believe in HIM while it was HIM who choose the faith for every human.
Reply

Predator
11-21-2011, 04:26 PM
There is no compulsion in religion, and God chooses whom he wills, but it seems that the same God has chosen you through Islam and me through Christianity
.

How can your "God" and my God be the same ? You worship a middle eastern Man born 2011 years ago , whereas I worship Allah- the creator of the universe.
Reply

Eric H
11-21-2011, 06:51 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Airforce and Ramadhan;

We worship Yahweh, the One God, creator of the universe and life, however you might juggle beliefs about, we are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers.

Billions of people have lived and died a Muslim, billions of people have lived and died a Christian, only God has the power to change this

We can spend our time in debate and argueing with each other, but for what purpose?

Or we could strive to get on despite our differences, neither of us are going to change, unless God wills it.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric
Reply

Tyrion
11-21-2011, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
only God has the power to change this
Sure, but the whole point of life is for us to do our part and try. You seem to be trying to free yourself from any responsibility in this world... I don't think that's a good idea.
Reply

czgibson
11-21-2011, 08:04 PM
Greetings,

I was at school the other day and between lessons I saw an Egyptian pupil who I know sitting at an empty desk in the corridor with nothing to do. I asked him what was happening and he told me he had to sit outside because his class were doing Religious Education, and he couldn't join them because he was a Muslim. He said he had to stay out of the lesson if the class was learning about anything other than Islam.

Sometimes parents will make requests along these lines, and I assume that is what had happened here. I can almost see the logic in parents wanting to keep their child on their chosen religious path, but at the same time, it is surely important for children to know about other religions. The child I spoke to will probably grow up with a much more limited understanding of world religions than his classmates, and if he does that would be a shame.

I know that this avoidance of the study of other religions is not common to all Muslims - every adult Muslim I have met has known an immense amount about other religions - but I thought I would mention this incident here to see what others think about it.

Peace
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 10:01 PM
:sl: Akhi MustafaMc,

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Wa alaikum assalam, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu, Ukhti Missy, please excuse my lack of manners and for being blunt. You provided a good answer and would have been exactly what I would have written.

The nature of Jesus is the central issue to Christianity as to whether he was a man, Son of God or God in human flesh. No Muslim would disagree with the first part of Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." I believe it was Paul who was the primary one to exalt Jesus above the status of prophet, messenger and servant of Allah and deify or make him into God. The first two chapters of Galatians were particularly revealing to me that Paul claimed to have received a revelation from God. In other words he claimed to be a Rasool Allah that Christians take for granted without serious evaluation of his claim. There is an article "Paul's Gospel" written by a Christian, William Newell, http://www.biblicist.org/bible/paul.shtml that illustrates my perspective. I had watched a show by a TV evangelist, Les Feldick, who basically reiterated this article. I actually wrote him a letter, but never heard back from him.
No worries. Ain’t nothing like that. Your question was pretty polite and meaningful. MashaAllah. :)

Exactly! It’s like Paul just brainwashed all of them. Apart from bringing in the weird ideas of Jesus being son of God and all the blasphemous claims, he cancelled out the law of circumcision, discouraged people from practicing the Law, and went to such an extent of insulting Jesus’ disciples, calls Peter (and Barnabas, I guess) a heretic! In the very same letters to the Galatians he expresses his anger at those converts who show their eagerness to follow the law of the OT. As far as I can recall for this, he even calls them “stupid”.
He also claims to experience some kind of mysticism (Galatians 2:20), by saying that “Christ lives in me”!! And the worst part is, in spite of all this he did get a good number of followers and to this date he still takes millions of people for a ride.

For my money, he’s not one to rely upon. He cannot be taken at his words for obvious reasons.

JazakAllah Khair for the link, went through it, It’s very informative, MashaAllah. Bookmarked it! :statisfie
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
There is no compulsion in religion, and God chooses whom he wills, but it seems that the same God has chosen you through Islam and me through Christianity.

It seems that God has put a great barrier between us for some reason, in order that I should get on with you, it seems to imply that I should try and convert you first.

Somehow I feel that God has given us a greater purpose to strive for, and that is to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship, despite all our differences.

Eric
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
We worship Yahweh, the One God, creator of the universe and life, however you might juggle beliefs about, we are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers.

Billions of people have lived and died a Muslim, billions of people have lived and died a Christian, only God has the power to change this

We can spend our time in debate and argueing with each other, but for what purpose?

Or we could strive to get on despite our differences, neither of us are going to change, unless God wills it.
Greetings bro EricH,

One of the reasons that I brought up this topic was because I’m concerned about my Non-Muslim friends. Concern comes from true love for someone. This world is ephemeral, and the real life is the Afterlife; where a person is either Rewarded with Eternal life in Paradise or given eternal punishment in the Hellfire, so as long as you’re alive, it’s very very important to believe in the True Religion of God and to call others to it rather than ignoring it completely.

Our very purpose on this earth is to believe in God Almighty alone and worship Him as He has Commanded us. We have to submit completely, which involves following the Right Faith!

Now the question is, Which is the True Faith? Obviously, each one of us would support our own beliefs and ideas, which leads to discussions and debates, and it’s not aimed at proving the other person wrong, rather to convey the Truth.

I’m really not with the idea of giving priority to simply “loving” your neighbors over “lovingly” calling them to the Truth. What’s better… you have good relations with your neighbor only in this world or experience the pleasures of the true life with him in the Hereafter? Well, I would choose the latter. Alhamdullilah.


Hope you see the point...:)

May God Almighty Bless us with the Truth. Ameen.

Peace.
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

I was at school the other day and between lessons I saw an Egyptian pupil who I know sitting at an empty desk in the corridor with nothing to do. I asked him what was happening and he told me he had to sit outside because his class were doing Religious Education, and he couldn't join them because he was a Muslim. He said he had to stay out of the lesson if the class was learning about anything other than Islam.

Sometimes parents will make requests along these lines, and I assume that is what had happened here. I can almost see the logic in parents wanting to keep their child on their chosen religious path, but at the same time, it is surely important for children to know about other religions. The child I spoke to will probably grow up with a much more limited understanding of world religions than his classmates, and if he does that would be a shame.

I know that this avoidance of the study of other religions is not common to all Muslims - every adult Muslim I have met has known an immense amount about other religions - but I thought I would mention this incident here to see what others think about it.

Peace
Greetings to you too bro,

Maybe because the child wasn’t a practicing Muslim, so his parents didn’t want to put his faith at stake. Because, unless a person is satisfied completely with his own beliefs, it makes no sense in learning other religions. It might cause one to deviate from the Straight Path, provided he IS on the Straight Path.

Peace.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-21-2011, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers.
salam Eric,

I don't disagree with that.
But what I disagree is that you believe God has purposefully, intentionally, irrevocably chose our beliefs for us and there is nothing we can do to change our belief.

Unless you don't believe in hell, I'm sure you'd know that people who disbelieve in God and do evil things despite all proofs and evidence will be punished in hell by God. That is tantamount you believe that God is unjust because He has chosen atheisms for some people and God had also chosen some people to be evil and that those people cannot change their belief and cannot change their ways and yet they will be tortured in hell. That is Unjust.
I'm sorry, but I worship and believe in God that is The Just.

I believe that we are created by God not as sheep or robots, for we are given intelligence by God to observe, to think, to evaluate evidence, and to conclude. We are also given "nafs", that is, our desires, that may come in the way between us coming to the truth. But nevertheless, we all are already given all the tools and the ways to reach to the truth and goodness, it is up to us whether we really want the truth and goodness or whether we are already comfortable with everything we have.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
We can spend our time in debate and argueing with each other, but for what purpose?
Or we could strive to get on despite our differences, neither of us are going to change, unless God wills it.
As I said, I am all for friendships and bridging differences and all that.
I tolerate your faith and I don't force you to believe in what I believe in.
But when it comes to belief in God, clearly we have fundamental differences, it is safe to conclude that you worship different God than I do, and no matter how strong you'd want it, you can never get me to say that I believe in the same God that you believe in. Insha Allah. You are more than welcome to believe in Allah as the creator of heaven and earth and that Jesus (pbuh) is one of His most noble messengers, though.
Reply

czgibson
11-21-2011, 10:34 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by missy

Greetings to you too bro,

Maybe because the child wasn’t a practicing Muslim, so his parents didn’t want to put his faith at stake. Because, unless a person is not satisfied completely with his own beliefs, it makes no sense in learning other religions. It might cause one to deviate from the Straight Path, provided he IS on the Straight Path.

Peace.
Thanks for the reply. You may be right that it could be because the child isn't a practising Muslim - I hadn't thought of that. He's around nine years old, so he's almost certainly too young to understand the issues involved in deciding what his religious beliefs should be. He is being prevented from making an informed choice, however.

Am I reading your second sentence correctly? You seem to imply that there is no point in studying other religions if you are happy with your own. That strikes me as a sure way to bring about misunderstandings and division among people. But maybe that is not what you meant.

Peace
Reply

Tyrion
11-21-2011, 10:40 PM
@czgibson: I think most would agree that the parents of that child seem insecure, and are over reacting... Right now, the kid is Muslim because his parents are, and he deserves the chance to learn about other faiths so that he can decide between them when he's ready. Also, I think most would disagree with missy when she said you shouldn't study other religions if you're happy with your own. (if that's what she meant...) I think its obvious why that would be problematic.
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Am I reading your second sentence correctly? You seem to imply that there is no point in studying other religions if you are happy with your own. That strikes me as a sure way to bring about misunderstandings and division among people. But maybe that is not what you meant.
Whoops…I screwed it! My bad. :hiding:

But I should say, you really confused me, for like 5 minutes I was stupidly staring at the computer screen…trying to reconcile with the mistake! :hmm:

Anyways, here’s what I meant,
Unless a person is completely satisfied with his own faith, it makes no sense in learning other religions.

But, if a person's religion does not give clear answers, i.e he's not satisfied,then obviously he should study other religions and strive for the truth.

As far as Islam is concerned, if a Muslim/or any other person, sincerely seeks true understanding, then he'll never be dissatisfied. Because Islam just fits perfectly like the pieces of a puzzle.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
......I think its obvious why that would be problematic.
That sure wouldn’t be cool! Not a bit!
Reply

Tyrion
11-21-2011, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by missy
Anyways, here’s what I meant,
Unless a person is completely satisfied with his own faith, it makes no sense in learning other religions.
How is that different from what you said originally?
Reply

missy
11-21-2011, 11:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
How is that different from what you said originally?
Shoot! Not again!

Argh! I really can't think straight, now.....



Okay, lemme rephrase it,

A person (especially a Muslim) should study other religions only if he is completely satisfied with Islam and has a strong faith and wants to convey it to others. So in order to effectively do Da'wah he can learn the other faiths.

Basically, my point is that only after realizing that you've got the Truth can you preach the Truth. And for enhancing your preaching you could study other religions. Just to get a clear picture of the various false/heretic/illogical beliefs.

I hope that clarifies it..
Reply

MustafaMc
11-22-2011, 01:20 AM
Peace, Eric H
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
it seems that the same God has chosen you through Islam and me through Christianity.
I believe that you are sincere in your faith as I perceive you also believe that I am sincere in mine. My understanding from what you wrote is that since we are sincere and believe that God has guided us to our respective faith that He also guided the other to an alternative faith. I will kindly disagree as I don't see how God would guide one to believe Jesus is the Son of God and yet God Incarnate while at the same time guiding another to believe that Jesus was not the Son of God nor God. My opinion is that one is guided and the other is misguided or led astray from the Straight Way.
It seems that God has put a great barrier between us for some reason, in order that I should get on with you, it seems to imply that I should try and convert you first.
True, there is a barrier between our hearts; however, I respect your sincerity and the right to practice your faith as long as it doesn't infringe on my practice of mine.
Somehow I feel that God has given us a greater purpose to strive for, and that is to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, despite all our differences.
This reminds me of the Good Samaritan parable and the hadith about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) checking on the Jew who abused him. I agree that we should be fair and just in our dealings with others of differing faiths. Sister Missy made a good point that to love one's neighbor, he should want for him what he wants for himself and what greater desire is there than to attain Paradise?
Reply

Eric H
11-22-2011, 06:16 AM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I have a great respect for Muslims and the way they pray, fast, their attitude to modesty, and alcohole. I have never read the Qur’an, but I do read many of the verses you guys put on your posts, and I do try and search for the good within Islam. When I read scriptures from other faiths, I strive to seek the best possible interpretation and meaning.

If I achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be through the grace and mercy of our God. I have family and friends from different religions and no religion, I pray that they may all achieve salvation, and I doubt if many of them will ever become a Catholic as I am. If God can be merciful to me, I pray that he will be merciful to all.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people.

Eric
Reply

MustafaMc
11-22-2011, 06:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If I achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be through the grace and mercy of our God.
On this I agree. If God does not have mercy on me and forgive me of my sins, then surely I am lost. Though I strive to follow Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in how he lived his life and worshiped Allah (swt), I know that I am an imperfect human with many frailties and weaknesses. I do not know the state of my faith at my death. In Islam the intention determines the merit of a deed and who among us can truthfully judge the sincerity of his own heart as we will all be at the mercy of God on Judgment Day?
Reply

ardianto
11-22-2011, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Islam proclaims that it is okay to lie sometimes.
Peace Amigo.

The more accurate word is "cover something", not lie. If a wife cook for her husband and ask him "Is the food delicious ?", the husband is allowed to answer "It's delicious" to please his wife although the food is not delicious. If a Muslim soldier arrested by the enemy, and the enemy's interrogator ask him "Where is your unit ?", this Muslim soldier is allowed to answer "I don't know", although he knows where his unit is to protect other soldiers in his unit.

These are the example of situation when Muslims are allowed to 'lie', like I have heard from an Islamic teacher. But of course, lying in usual meaning is impermissible.
Reply

Riana17
11-22-2011, 10:43 AM
Salam

Its a must to study others religion, for example Brother Amigo is really keen at Christianity, and now mashallah he is really interested in ISLAM.

But the thing is that which one is logical? Some people might be okay with little confusion in their religion, or little error or not so logical. For me, I better not have religion if it is not perfect in every sense.

Religions with false propaganda are really hard to follow, can't cheat myself. If I believe in second life and I am really keen to go to Jannah/Paradise then I must be very sure about my religion or better yet an atheist.

So it is a must to study major religions and accept the truth when it is the truth and pray for guidance from the Only Creator.
Reply

MustafaMc
11-22-2011, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Riana17
Its a must to study others religion
Can you provide me an ayat in the Quran or a hadith that supports this statement?
, for example Brother Amigo is really keen at Christianity, and now mashallah he is really interested in ISLAM.
From what he has written he is interested in seeing us accept his faith and has not shown interest in Islam.
If I believe in second life and I am really keen to go to Jannah/Paradise then I must be very sure about my religion or better yet an atheist.
So, the choice is 1) know all religions, including Satanism, in depth before choosing the best religion or 2) be an atheist. Where did you come up with this one?
Reply

Ramadhan
11-22-2011, 01:28 PM
salam Eric,

I see that your view of your own belief (christianity) is different than the core beliefs of most christians. Christians I know, including here in this forum, believe that unless you accept that God came down to earth and died to pay your sins, then you will not be saved in the hereafter.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If I achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be through the grace and mercy of our God.
Your view is similar to what muslims believe: that we will only enter paradise and avoid hell fire only by Mercy of God (swt), as this hadith describes:

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.” (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said, ‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and Mercy on me.” So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability: and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.” (Book #70, Hadith #577) Bukhari
Reply

Amigo
11-22-2011, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
The more accurate word is "cover something", not lie. If a wife cook for her husband and ask him "Is the food delicious ?", the husband is allowed to answer "It's delicious" to please his wife although the food is not delicious. If a Muslim soldier arrested by the enemy, and the enemy's interrogator ask him "Where is your unit ?", this Muslim soldier is allowed to answer "I don't know", although he knows where his unit is to protect other soldiers in his unit.
Thanks for more explanations but that is still lying.
It appears that to you believe other things can be more important than truth.
Reply

missy
11-22-2011, 11:22 PM
Greetings bro Eric,

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If I achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be through the grace and mercy of our God. I have family and friends from different religions and no religion, I pray that they may all achieve salvation, and I doubt if many of them will ever become a Catholic as I am. If God can be merciful to me, I pray that he will be merciful to all.
God is definitely the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful and there is no doubt that He’ll Help those who strive in His Cause.

God Almighty says in the Holy Quran,
“…..My mercy encompasses all things…..” (Holy Quran 7:156)


Regarding your previous post,

As its clear, while saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself”, you are referring to the passage from the Gospel of Matthew. And it looks like for you the “greater” purpose of life is to strive to put this verse/command in to practice. But, you fail to realize that according to whoever wrote this Gospel, Jesus (pbuh) regarded something as the “greatest commandment”…..and what is that?...it’s to love God Almighty the most!

“Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Matthew 22: 37,38)


So, however great you might regard it, loving God the most remains the first and the greatest!

Now, if we love someone…we naturally express our love, cuz that’s the only way to prove that you’re not lying….and the very meaning of “expressing” love means to do exactly that which pleases the person. It’s another thing that a person might simply pretend or flatter but obviously here we’re talking about God…and God cannot be fooled!

Okay, now applying the same principle to loving GOD Almighty,
In order to truly love God, you gotta be doing things according to,
  1. what pleases Him,
  2. what displeases Him,
  3. what He has Commanded (Permitted/Prohibited)
  4. You need to acknowledge Him and His Attributes and have faith in their Perfectness, (eg, believing that God’s Knowledge is perfectly perfect and eternal.)
  5. Believe in all that He has revealed to His Prophets and Messengers and all that He has said.
  6. Act Accordingly.
These are just a few to mention...and I’m sure I’m missing out on a lot ‘em…it’s definitely much more deep and serious. It isn’t as simple as we think…and that’s where we go wrong.

So once we get a clear picture of how God should be loved/obeyed, we need to know what exactly those aspects are. For which, knowing God’s True Religion is very essential, rather the only way out, the only way to “salvation”!


Since you don’t like people debating interfaith, I won’t tell you why I feel Christianity is wrong, instead, I’d just ask one sincere question….

Does Christianity provide you with sufficient knowledge about God’s Being, His Attributes, His Omnipotence, His Likes/Dislikes and what He has Prohibited/Commanded and how you as a believer should act,…and all of what can be thought to be necessary in order to truly love Him…without any sort of contradictions in the text, no vagueness, no ‘mysteries’ etc?


P.S: If got an opportunity, I would love to discuss about the making of the Bible, the NT.
Reply

Tyrion
11-23-2011, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Thanks for more explanations but that is still lying.
It appears that to you believe other things can be more important than truth.
*Sigh, you're not one of those super pacifist Christians too, are you? Stuff like that might look good on paper, but fails miserably in real life... You know, real life - that thing we're all living in right now.

I've noticed something Amigo... It seems like you were a lot more subtle in the past, but lately you've been way more obvious with your agenda. If you're going to try and make Islam look bad and promote whatever sect of Christianity you belong to, I suggest you try harder to at least make it look like you're sincere. :rollseyes
Reply

Amigo
11-23-2011, 05:24 AM
There is no real life except in the fullness of truth.

As about your accusations on me, it seems like resisting false accusations on my faith here means having an agenda.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-23-2011, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Thanks for more explanations but that is still lying.
It appears that to you believe other things can be more important than truth.
So christians are not allowed to tell their wives that their cooking are delicious even if it is not?
And christians must tell the truth when they are captured by enemies?

but your prophet Saul of tarsus command you to lie in order to spread paulian christianity:

But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself. nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.
(2 corinthians 12:16)

“But what does it matter? Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. Yes, I will continue to be happy.” (Philippians 1:18)

But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (Romas 3:7)
Reply

MustafaMc
11-23-2011, 07:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
There is no real life except in the fullness of truth.

As about your accusations on me, it seems like resisting false accusations on my faith here means having an agenda.
You speak in riddles and whatever is your faith is unclear to me. Assuming you are a Christian and that the central belief is that Jesus is literally both the Son of God AND God inside a human body, then we have a fundamental difference in understanding of the Truth. Jesus can not be other than a messenger, prophet and servant of Allah (subhana wa ta ala) as so indicated by the first part of Acts 3:13. You do not properly answer questions or even adequately defend your faith other than speaking in riddles that no one can understand what you mean.
Reply

Ali_008
11-23-2011, 08:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Thanks for more explanations but that is still lying.
It appears that to you believe other things can be more important than truth.
Yeah, the lives of valiant soldiers who are ready to die to establish truth is more important than truth itself because they defend it. The king can only be protected when the soldiers are alive and not vice-versa.

And yes, it is allowed to lie to the wife only because the matters between husband and wife are to be always remained strictly confidential. It is not called lying if you are trying to keep your marriage happy. I'm sure you must have said at one time or the other regarding your love for someone as "I love so and so from the bottom of my heart" or "My heart longs for you" but today science has proved that you love from the brain not from the heart. So were you lying when you used the word "heart"?

More importantly, you have been lying on this forum claiming to have "seen Christ" when you were never able to bring forward your evidence.

Peace
Reply

ardianto
11-23-2011, 12:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Thanks for more explanations but that is still lying.
It appears that to you believe other things can be more important than truth.
There are many Christians in my mother big family. Also I have many Christian friends. Alhamdulillah, my relationship with them is very good. We respect each other.

I noticed, when my Christian relatives or friends visited a house and the host served them with foods, they always answer "delicious" when the host asked about those foods taste, although those foods were not delicious. And when someone unintentionally 'hit' them, they always replied "I am okay" although they hurt, when that someone apologize and asked "Are you hurt".

Is it means they are liars ?. Depend on from which point of view we see this case. But for me, they are not liars. They hide the 'truth' because they have good manner and etiquette. So, what's difference between them and Muslim husband who said "delicious" although his wife dishes is not delicious ?

There is no any religion that allow lying. But if believers in all religion choose to hide the 'truth' with good an acceptable reason, it's permissible.

I know you know about it, amigo.
Reply

Crystal
11-23-2011, 05:00 PM
I personally think it is important to study many religions. From my experience studying religion makes you think about the world in a new way - you see the differences but what is most astonishing is when you see the similarities - it makes you stop and think they must be similar for a reason? It makes believe in God because I don't believe that these religions just made up a higher being. It may have been in the past certain religions held the truth but over time they became corrupted or weren't preserved but some of the truth is still there.

Also a scientist from the Islamic empire when it was at its prime named al Kindi said the following :We should not be timid in praising truth and seeking it from wherever it comes - even if it be from distant races or people different from us.

Also in the hadith I came across the following:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone travels on a road in search of knowledge, Allah will cause him to travel on one of the roads to paradise (Book 25 Sunan Abudawud)
Narrated Anas ibn Malik Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said:The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim (Al Timirdhi hadith no. 74)

To be honest in my studies of religion the religion that places the most emphasis on knowledge is Islam. I don't see any problem with Muslims studying other religions and I am aware that the quran actually says to look at previous scripture in order to confirm the quran i.e the belief of God. Another thing learning about other religions that is useful for Muslims is dawah ( I think i spelt it right). What is the point in telling a Hindu or Christian about Islam when you don't know anything about their religion. By putting things in context for a person they may understand Islam a lot better. Me being a previous Catholic, and not sure what I am now but in learning about Islam I wouldn't have liked it as much if someone was just preaching me their religion rather I prefer comparing. I found a man called Ahmad Deedat very useful in my search for the truth - I have so much respect for him as he knew the bible inside out as much as he knew the quran and his arguments were therefore much more compelling.
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
There are many Christians in my mother big family. Also I have many Christian friends. Alhamdulillah, my relationship with them is very good. We respect each other.

I noticed, when my Christian relatives or friends visited a house and the host served them with foods, they always answer "delicious" when the host asked about those foods taste, although those foods were not delicious. And when someone unintentionally 'hit' them, they always replied "I am okay" although they hurt, when that someone apologize and asked "Are you hurt".

Is it means they are liars ?. Depend on from which point of view we see this case. But for me, they are not liars. They hide the 'truth' because they have good manner and etiquette. So, what's difference between them and Muslim husband who said "delicious" although his wife dishes is not delicious ?
Brother, good manner is honesty.
A good Christian must alwasy do his best to present the truth because the truth wether it hurts or not always does good to one who hears it. Truth always save. Those people who did not cook well, will make extra effort and cook well next time, and you will have done them a great/friendly service of pointing out that their food is not as delicious as they expect. One just have to learn/pray to be respectful in everything.

About being hurt. Well, if it is by accident, I am not sure what they mean by 'okay'. Perhaps it means that they are not offended because it is by accident. Or they are not hurt very painfully....not as bad as it could be...

Those Christians will speak for themselves. I am almost certain that they will not desagree with me about what I said here. We are weak. Believing that lying is always a sin, does not mean that we don't lie, we are weak and sin often. The important thing is that we acknoweldge our sin and repent for it. It makes an infinite difference if we did not acknowledge that it was a sin and did not repent for it.
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008
Yeah, the lives of valiant soldiers who are ready to die to establish truth is more important than truth itself because they defend it. The king can only be protected when the soldiers are alive and not vice-versa.

And yes, it is allowed to lie to the wife only because the matters between husband and wife are to be always remained strictly confidential. It is not called lying if you are trying to keep your marriage happy. I'm sure you must have said at one time or the other regarding your love for someone as "I love so and so from the bottom of my heart" or "My heart longs for you" but today science has proved that you love from the brain not from the heart. So were you lying when you used the word "heart"?

More importantly, you have been lying on this forum claiming to have "seen Christ" when you were never able to bring forward your evidence.
I don't think you checked your first two sentences...

Lying does absolutely no good. It alwasy mislead:
The wife will cook that same dish to strangers who will feel bad about her cooking while she is all proud of herself. And if they can't hire her in a restaurent while she thought she makes delicious food, all this will contribute to a happy marriage.
All this being the work of her husband keeping the marriage together.
As I pointed out before, falsehood in the name of love produces false love.
We always see peole around proud with unbelievably bad issues, and we wonder 'didn't anybody ever told them this or that?' of course not....most likely their family were busy false-loving them, and now they have a whole build up false reality abound them.
These are just few from the infinite number of consequences of lies.

Only truth saves as far as true salvation is concerned. A lie can appear to save people from death, but it is jus that their day had not come. Fact is, if their day has not come, even if you point right where they are, they will not die. Now, a true believer will know that and will keep his faith, and honor God with his handling of truth, because he knows that life is in the hands of God. A person can always hide the truth without lying. Hiding the truth can mean respect for truth as long as hiding is no lying. But lying is plain disrespect of truth.

As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
And christians must tell the truth when they are captured by enemies?
Lying is not equal to not telling the truth, it equals to telling the untruth.
A Christian must always respect the truth, he must not reveal it to people who do not deserve it.
Respect of truth also means he must not tell lies. He can tell a truth which covers the other truth, or simply refuse to say anything. A truth can not contradict an other, but a truth can cover an other perfectly.
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
but your prophet Saul of tarsus command you to lie in order to spread paulian christianity:

But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself. nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.
(2 corinthians 12:16)

“But what does it matter? Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. Yes, I will continue to be happy.” (Philippians 1:18)

But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (Romas 3:7)
Reading according to your terms as usual:)
At least try to get the context... read extra verses around or a whole chapter...

You reminded me of a quote from your fellow Muslim:

"but we are a people incapable of comprehending sarcasm, since it requires a bit of thinking and intellectualizing. And we read with great speed and a hopeful eye, not an eye for truth or reality. Some of us are struck with blindness when we read things that go against our hopes."- Khaled Montaser

And we do not hold prophets to be perfect. Only God is perfect according to the Christian Faith.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-24-2011, 04:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Reading according to your terms as usual
At least try to get the context... read extra verses around or a whole chapter...
I have read the whole chapter. In those verses, your prophet saul of tarsus clearly told christians that it is ok to lie to spread christianity.

If you disagree, then give explanation otherwise. I am happy to discuss with you using your own bible verses. There are plenty of gems in bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
And we do not hold prophets to be perfect. Only God is perfect according to the Christian Faith.
I understand that current christians do not believe prophets to be perfect. Christians believe prophets got drunk, had sex with tehir own daughter, committed adulteries, killing people to steal their wives, etc.

On the other hand, christians believe in every word that saul of tarsus said (including his claim that he received revelation from god).
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 04:24 AM
Yes, Christians are not shy to admit that prophets were also sinners. This way they are made capable if they wish, to avoid sins prophets have committed. Even Paul was a sinner.
The only humans who never sinned are Jesus and his mother Mary. If one wants to know about them directly, he walks in the truth. Walking in the truth/light is the Christian Way. Only in the truth they can be found. As you know they wrote no book in the Bible, so you will not access them directly in the Bible. Direct access is only in truth: honesty and sincerity of heart. In Truth is Jesus and through him, the truths about Mary and others is made known.
Reply

جوري
11-24-2011, 05:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The only humans who never sinned are Jesus and his mother Mary.

Martin Luther negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is to be found in Luther’s Table-Talk (See Weimer edition, ii: 107)whose authenticity has never been challenged even though the coarser passages are cause for embarrassment. Arnold Lunn writes:
Weimer quoted a passage from the Table-Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, “whom he let off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy had to commit adultery before he died.” (See Arnold Lunn, The Revolt Against Reason, Eyre & Spottiswoode (Publishers), London, 1950, p.233.)

Not that it is the biggest issue with Christianity. With most people the fact that you worship a man pretty much seals the deal. The fact that you've prophets sent to warn people and yet become themselves guilty of what they're warning against, passages that don't agree, and charlatans that abrogate the commandments, charlatans who weren't even picked by Jesus as apostles..and generally being at odds with All Abrahamic faith, Jews, Mandeans, Sabeans, Islam etc but most egregious of all is what comes from within whenever you come up with a passage, another christian with a very large movement refutes it.

best,
Reply

Ramadhan
11-24-2011, 05:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Yes, Christians are not shy to admit that prophets were also sinners. This way they are made capable if they wish, to avoid sins prophets have committed. .
Except that prophets (pbut) are supposed to be role models and examples and give guidance. By portraying them as drunk incestuous adulterers, the jewish scribes conveyed the wrong messages.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Even Paul was a sinner.
I never claimed paul was not a sinner.

I claimed that paul commanded christians to lie in order to spread christianity. was paul wrong?
Reply

Amigo
11-24-2011, 06:09 AM
Christians and Muslims have very different understanding of the world 'prophet'. It could take a thread in its own. The scribes were interested in conveying relevant truth for the people of God to understand their situation in relation to God. Once you know the story of Salvation, only then you can understand why stories were chosen to be written as well as why certain books were selected to be included in the Bible while others were not.

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.
Reply

Tyrion
11-24-2011, 06:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God.
But through Paul, right? It's his trustworthiness that seems to be the problem...

Anyway, this thread seems to be going a bit off topic...
Reply

Ramadhan
11-24-2011, 06:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.
Well, you claimed that christians must never lie, but saul of tarsus, whose words you take as guidance over the words of God and prophet/messenger Jesus (pbuh), clearly said several times that christians are allowed to lie.

So who's right?
God? saul? you?
Reply

Ali_008
11-24-2011, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
I don't think you checked your first two sentences...

Lying does absolutely no good. It alwasy mislead:
The wife will cook that same dish to strangers who will feel bad about her cooking while she is all proud of herself.
All this being the work of her husband.
As I pointed out before, falsehood produce false love.
We always see peole around proud in unbelievably bad things, and we wonder 'didn't anybody ever told them this or that?' of course not....most likely their family were busy false-loving them, and now they have a whole build up false reality abound them.
These are just few from the infinite number of consequences of lies.

Only truth saves as far as true salvation is concerned. A lie can appear to save people from death, but it is jus that their day had not come. Fact is, if their day has not come, even if you point right where they are, they will not die. Now, a true believer will know that and will keep his faith, and honor God with his handling of truth, because he knows that life is in the hands of God. A person can always hide the truth without lying. Hiding the truth is respect, even more respect and reverance of truth. But lying is plain disrespect of truth.

As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.
As always Amigo, your ego never lets you see beyond what you think is right. You never seem to even want to understand what Islam is. Lying in marriage is allowed not to just keep telling false news to your wife. It is so because marriage is a very sensitive bond. The criticism of the entire world on one side and the criticism of the spouse on other side, which side do you think will be heavier? Your spouse is the person you trust the most in this world, he/she is the person who you know will be with you no matter what and they are the only ones who you can reveal your most shameful problems to. The relationship is one of its kind in all relationships and hence the mutual respect and trust is very unique as well. Lying to the spouse is only allowed to keep maintain peace in the marriage. It does not contain the permission of deceiving the spouse with lies as much as you want.

The example given by brother ardianto is the best I can think of. The husband can lie to the wife about the food only to keep her happy for the moment because she'd be eagerly anticipating a positive response from him. He can later gently inform of the truth about how she can improve her cooking. Just imagine a scenario where the wife works really hard to prepare a dish for the husband and the husband straight out rejects the food. Will that be a good marriage? More importantly, women don't take criticism that well. Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) did inform us of this as well.

Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman was created from a rib, and if you try to straighten a rib you will break it, so deal with her gently.”
Reported by Ahmad, 5/8; Ibn Hibbaan, 1308; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2/163


So women need to be treated in a very gentle way. When women are in a problem, they seek compassion more than the solution. Don't take the allowance to lie as a means of permission to lie in every matter. If the motives are haraam behind the lie then that lie is not allowed.

Islam does not allow lying in all cases. Only in exceptional ones. And you Christians talk about the love of God for humans so much that he sacrificed his "only begotten son". Do you think He doesn't love Muslims even little enough that He won't allow us to lie in the battlefield to save numerous other Muslim lives?

And your proof is all philosophy. Get real. And fine, I don't see Christ but you do right then why not show me a PHYSICAL proof of it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Christians and Muslims have very different understanding of the world 'prophet'. It could take a thread in its own. The scribes were interested in conveying relevant truth for the people of God to understand their situation in relation to God. Once you know the story of Salvation, only then you can understand why stories were chosen to be written as well as why certain books were selected to be included in the Bible while others were not.

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.
And the way you keep talking as if you are God's prophet and the only one who knows what is right and wrong. The way you keep expressing yourself as superior over everyone else (including Christians) is despicable. Christ was a humble man and you seem to be his most ardent follower (but with arrogance).
Reply

missy
11-24-2011, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The important thing is that we acknoweldge our sin and repent for it. It makes an infinite difference if we did not acknowledge that it was a sin and did not repent for it.
True! So, don’t you feel the need to do so?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.
Yeah right! So now you’re saying that Christianity didn’t result from Paul’s genius, it existed long before?!

The truth is that Jesus (pbuh) was a true Muslim and believed in Allah SWT alone and so did his disciples and he preached Islam and prophesized the coming of the last Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was Paul who invented Christianity and all of its blasphemous claims.

I guess it’s time you give in bro, cuz it’s really not right to lie. And it seems you know that very well!

So I suggest you repent, it’ll make an infinite difference if you acknowledge your mistake….I’m serious.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.
Hmmm…interesting!

So how’s it like to see Christ??


In order to prove you’re point you need to get out of your fantasy world.

If you claim to be truthful, can you prove that....
1)Jesus claimed to be God/son of God?
2)Jesus died for the sins of mankind?
3)Belief in his death is the only way to salvation?
4)Bible is the word of God?
Reply

Amigo
11-25-2011, 01:59 AM
you can not see that which you turn your back against.
Evidence is a department of truth.
How can you see evidence while turning toward falsehood?
It is falsehood which presents fantasy, truthfullness presents reality.
It requires great humility to walk in truth and greater humility still to remain in it....strong faith to believe it.
It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it.

Those who seek God sincerely try to offer Him the purest sacrifice.
Those who trust God are never desapointed, for He is mighty and ever faithful.
He can not abondon those who entrust themselves fully to him.
He defends them and set them free from their mighty oppressors: darkness, fear, pain, sin, and death.
He rises them up to shine in Him. For He is sublime light, Truth and Life, true love which never end, life of the saints.
But those who turn to darkness offer themselves to slavery, lies, and murders.
For they turn to the dominion of the prince of darkness,
The fallen one; Liar and a Murderer from the beginning and they serve him

But the Lord is good, when they call on him, he saves them.
If they turn to face Him, he does not look away.
When he lifts up their faces, they see him. He shines on them and all darkness flee.
For He is mighty and all merciful. He saves and sets free.
Glory be to him forever and ever. For He is good. He is perfectly good. He is most Holy.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-25-2011, 02:52 AM
^ you always create your own verses, and never takes one from your own God.

So are you a prophet now?

And you have not answered this question of mine:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Well, you claimed that christians must never lie, but saul of tarsus, whose words you take as guidance over the words of God and prophet/messenger Jesus (pbuh), clearly said several times that christians are allowed to lie.

So who's right?
God? saul? you?
Reply

Ali_008
11-25-2011, 03:04 AM
Like I've said before, in the veil of "worshiping Christ", Amigo has fallen into the worst of traps i.e. arrogance. He believes he's above and beyond every other human and I think it's high time he realizes that behind that veil he is actually worshiping himself because he doesn't believe in any verses and believes what he says/feels/thinks to be the word of God. As good as calling himself the vessel between God and humans. ASTAGHFIRULLAH.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
It is falsehood which presents fantasy, truthfullness presents reality.
It requires great humility to walk in truth and greater humility still to remain in it....strong faith to believe it.
It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it.
Your visions of Christ = fantasy

if they were real then where's the proof?

I loved this line "It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it." because that's exactly my opinion about you.
Reply

Amigo
11-25-2011, 03:39 AM
How very you to regret me not having concern of Bible verse after removing a post where I indicate a verse filled Christian study in the thread where I would be expected to do just that:) Don't you think, Ramadhan, it would be nice if you give a short description of what you remove from people's post so that other readers can have an idea.... not that it would matter much though to some...:)
Reply

Ramadhan
11-25-2011, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
How very you to regret me not having concern of Bible verse after removing a post where I indicate a verse filled Christian study in the thread where I would be expected to do just that Don't you think, Ramadhan, it would be nice if you give a short description of what you remove from people's post so that other readers can have an idea.... not that it would matter much though to some...
I removed the part of your post where it contained christian propaganda.
And you have been warned before that non-muslim propaganda is not allowed.

Now imagine this: If I go to a catholic forums, and I posted links to Ahmad Deedat, don't you agree that they would have kicked me out of there immediately?
You are lucky that we muslims are far more tolerant, and that you are free to discuss your religion and that we even tolerate your empty words without evidence from your own scriptures.

Now, you claimed that christians MUST NOT lie in ANY SITUATION.

But I have shown you that saul of tarsus commanded you to lie in order to spread christianity.

So, who lied?

You? or Saul of Tarsus?
or both lied?

Please answer this.
Reply

Ali_008
11-25-2011, 04:57 AM
Brother Ramadhan, I can almost guarantee that instead of answering your question he'll go philosophical again. Something like:

"Don't seek answers from me. God gives truth, I just blabber fiction. You are in darkness because you don't worship me and I'm enlightened because I said so. I don't care what your question is. I'm God, I'm Prophet, you are murderer/rapist/liar wandering in darkness blah blah blah"
Reply

hariananta
11-25-2011, 08:32 PM
Here are some quotes from sacred hindu scriptures. Kindly reflect your views on them:

Tulsidas' Ramcharitmanas states: "Jaki rahi bhavana jaisi, prabhu murat dekhi tin taisi" - A person's attitude/devotion determines how he sees God.

Quotes from Bhagwad Gita(Most Sacred Scripture of the Hindus)
GOD says the following:

1. “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”


2. "It is better to do one’s own duty, however defective it may be, than to follow the duty of another, however well one may perform it. He who does his duty as his own nature reveals it, never sins. ”


3. ”Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is.”

4."Still your mind in me, still yourself in me, and without a doubt you shall be united with me, Lord of Love, dwelling in your heart"
5. "Hypocrisy,arrogance,pride,anger,harshness and ignorance; these are the marks of those who are born with demonic qualities"


Other lines from sacred Hindu Scriptures:

Honor your mother as God, Honor your Father as God, Honor thy teacher as God - Upanishads
Children should follow in their parents footsteps and having become like them, serve them to the best of their ability - Atharva Veda
God is one but sages call it by different names, devotees see it in different forms - Rigveda








Reply

جوري
11-25-2011, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hariananta
1. “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”
Are Hindus allowed to drink alcohol?

best,
Reply

hariananta
11-25-2011, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

Are Hindus allowed to drink alcohol?

best,
Rigveda 10.5.6:
One becomes sinful if he or she crosses even one of the 7 restraints. Yaskacharya defines these 7 sins in his Nirukta as: Theft, Adultery, Murder of a noble person, Abortion, Dishonesty, Repeating misdeeds and consumption of alcohol.


Rigveda 8.2.12:
Those who consume intoxicants lose their intellect, talk rubbish, get naked and fight with each other.



Rigveda 7.86.6:
An action performed as per the inner voice does not lead to sins. Dumb arrogance against inner voice, however, is source of frustration and miseries in same manner as intoxication and gambling destroy us. God inspires those with noble elevated thoughts towards progress and propels down those who decide to think lowly. Lowly acts performed even in dreams cause decline.



Atharvaveda 6.70.1:
Weak minds are attracted towards meat, alcohol, sensuality and womanizing. But O non-violent mind, you focus your mind towards the world in same manner as a mother cares for her child.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2011, 09:14 PM
^^ that's great then how come all the Hindus I know without exception drink?

best,
Reply

hariananta
11-25-2011, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
^^ that's great then how come all the Hindus I know without exception drink?

best,
maybe they are not following the teachings in the scriptures. Hinduism is quite lenient. There is no concept of hell or heaven.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2011, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hariananta
maybe they are not following the teachings in the scriptures. Hinduism is quite lenient. There is no concept of hell or heaven.
Ok thank you, and welcome aboard!
Reply

Eric H
11-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Greetings and peace be with you hariananta;

welcome to the forum, and it is good to see some Hindu scriptures.

Eric
Reply

Ali_008
11-26-2011, 05:01 AM
Welcome aboard hariananta

My knowledge of Hindu scriptures is quite low but I know that their origin is not known. When, where and to whom they were revealed is unheard of. However even they prophecize the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam). Narashangsa and Kalki Avataar, the names by which he's referred in the Hindu scriptures.
Reply

Predator
11-26-2011, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hariananta
Here are some quotes from sacred hindu scriptures. Kindly reflect your views on them:

Tulsidas' Ramcharitmanas states: "Jaki rahi bhavana jaisi, prabhu murat dekhi tin taisi" - A person's attitude/devotion determines how he sees God.

Quotes from Bhagwad Gita(Most Sacred Scripture of the Hindus)
GOD says the following:

1. “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”


2. "It is better to do one’s own duty, however defective it may be, than to follow the duty of another, however well one may perform it. He who does his duty as his own nature reveals it, never sins. ”


3. ”Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is.”

4."Still your mind in me, still yourself in me, and without a doubt you shall be united with me, Lord of Love, dwelling in your heart"
5. "Hypocrisy,arrogance,pride,anger,harshness and ignorance; these are the marks of those who are born with demonic qualities"



Other lines from sacred Hindu Scriptures:

Honor your mother as God, Honor your Father as God, Honor thy teacher as God - Upanishads
Children should follow in their parents footsteps and having become like them, serve them to the best of their ability - Atharva Veda
God is one but sages call it by different names, devotees see it in different forms - Rigveda



Welcome to the board hariananta , what do you think of these verses ?

"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]


"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]


"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]


"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship created things(Idol, Table,Chairs)."
[Yajurveda 40:9]


So , do you beleive on idol worship ?
Reply

CosmicPathos
12-11-2011, 01:42 AM
It is important to study other religions from a purely skeptical and academic point of view.

I do not find other religions fascinating though. I've studied historicity of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism in quite detail. My minor was in religious studies. I did not find anything "fascinating" about these religions. Man made work that is supposed to be word of God is not fascinating at all. Yea, the cultural representation of these religions might be fascinating, for example, I really like the gothic cathedrals and churches purely from an aesthetic point of view. But I dislike what happens in there, shirk and other oddities. In the same way, I like the Buddhist monastries facing the serene landscapes on the edge of mountains, but the tenets of the religion do not blow my mind away.
Reply

Muhaba
12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
we should first learn our own religion (Islam) well, by reading the commentary of the Quran, history of islam, etc. we should be knowledgeable and our foundation should be strong and unshakeable. after that, we should stduy a bit abou the the relgion and culture of the people we intend toi preach to (most likely, those are the people we come i contact with). after that we should start preaching to them with wisdom. Allah says to use wisdom when discussing with people of other religions and not to argue or display bad behavior. if our recepient seems to be the arguing / fighting type, just give him/her a booklet to read and tell them that you will discuss further later if timepermits. avoid arguments and insulting language altogether because such behavior is what Satan wants since it will keep your receipient away from Islam.

of course, we should preach even if we learn just one verse, but our knowledge base should be high enough to keep ourselves from preaching incorrect information.
Reply

♥ Sofia ♥
12-11-2011, 03:31 PM
:wasalamex

i agree with sis writer. if you know only a little about your islam then preach the little that you know but don't step out of that boundary unless you're absolutely sure of what you're talking about and where it comes from etc. be sure to spread no falsehood about this beautiful deen.

there's a young revert at my school the same age as me (14), masha'Allah, and i'm helping her in her studies of islam. she's very mature for her age and used to be extremely fascinated with science and atheism but once i started tactfully giving dawah she developed a soft spot for islam. i find that it's best when she asks me questions about islam rather than me giving her random bits of info because then i can also study and benefit from it while giving her the benefit of such knowledge afterwards. her reversion was more of a gut instinct one rather than ages and ages of independent study. this is also why it's important to really give the best of yourself in public as a muslim while around company who have different beliefs as little things can really influence them as they did with her.

it's good to learn some more about other religions other than the basic foundations of them because, while simple arguments from other beliefs can be easily counteracted, slightly more complex passages can help you in your argument. again, it can also leave an impression on the other party and can lead them to think that you've really done your research and you're passionate about your religion other than reacting purely on personal opinion and emotion.

if you're going to take part in such discussions then you really need to be firm in your imaan, simply due to the fact that if you're weak and still questioning basic aspects of islam yet attempting to read up about other religions to fight against them, such religions can trick you and cast you to fall into even further doubt about islam.

make sure you strengthen your own roots, carry a good example whenever you can, learn about other religions from legit sources and you're good to go.

i personally study other religions when i'm not learning about my own deen because that strengthens my imaan massively. it really just makes me appreciate my own religion and opens my eyes even further to the truth and, because i feel as if i'm currently stable in my imaan alhamdulillah, researching other religions helps to rid any thoughts of doubt rather than add to them.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-12-2011, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
I do not find other religions fascinating though. I've studied historicity of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism in quite detail. My minor was in religious studies. I did not find anything "fascinating" about these religions. Man made work that is supposed to be word of God is not fascinating at all.
I think they are very fascinating, both the official doctrines, and the actual beliefs and behaviours of the individuals. Sometimes it is inspiring. Sometimes it is frightening. Sometimes it is hilarious. It is almost always interesting. In fact I wouldn't be here if it wasn't.
Reply

Sothis Girl
02-06-2012, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
The more I study other religions, the more I realize how far more superior Islam is, and affirms it as the truth.
I was born muslim but I learned Christianity in 13 reading Ahmed Deedat "the choice" and King James Bible. Deedat's book changed my life. Even until today I still read books about Buddhism and Wicca. There are a lot of wisdoms in every religions that will enrich your soul and it reminds me always to respect another religions, no matter how strong I hold to Islam.
Reply

Who Am I?
02-06-2012, 11:37 PM
:sl:

I think it's important to encourage research and free-thinking. I don't agree with censorship, and I sometimes resent my sheltered childhood because of censorship. I was not prepared for how the real world works when I finished school and became an adult, and I suffered for many years because of it.

Studying other religions is what led me here. Studying other religions is what led me to search for the truth. Studying other religions is what led me to Islam. At first it was merely because I wanted to understand Islam. I wanted to understand Muslims and why they do what they do and why they think what they think. But the more I discovered, the more I became convinced that la illaha illallah is the truth.
Reply

AhlaamBella
02-07-2012, 12:14 AM
Studying other religions will, if anything, enrich our Dawah skills! How do you expect to explain Islam in a one-sided way? As far as interest is concerned, the only religions I find interesting are The Big 3: Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The other religions do not inspire or interest me. No disrespect to them; just my personal preference :)
Reply

Who Am I?
02-07-2012, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhlaamBella
Studying other religions will, if anything, enrich our Dawah skills! How do you expect to explain Islam in a one-sided way? As far as interest is concerned, the only religions I find interesting are The Big 3: Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The other religions do not inspire or interest me. No disrespect to them; just my personal preference :)
I tend to agree with you there. I find the monotheistic faiths much more interesting and easier to follow too. ;D
Reply

UUSeeker
02-07-2012, 08:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think they are very fascinating, both the official doctrines, and the actual beliefs and behaviours of the individuals. Sometimes it is inspiring. Sometimes it is frightening. Sometimes it is hilarious. It is almost always interesting. In fact I wouldn't be here if it wasn't.
I agree. God is too vast to be encapsulated in a single religion or belief system. By studying different religions, along with science and humanism, we can get glimpses of what the divine entails.

Peace,

Seeker
Reply

Burninglight
02-13-2012, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
I tend to agree with you there. I find the monotheistic faiths much more interesting and easier to follow too
Why not Hindu?; besides, I though Muslim don't consider Christianity monotheistic? I know it is, but your view confuses me a bit.
Reply

Who Am I?
02-13-2012, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Why not Hindu?; besides, I though Muslim don't consider Christianity monotheistic? I know it is, but your view confuses me a bit.
Eh, all the different gods and goddesses in Hinduism confuse me. Besides, I like beef too much to give it up. ;D

Technically, Christianity is monotheism. I don't necessarily think that it's polytheism, but the whole "3 in one deal" freaks me out a little. When I was younger, I just took it for granted that was how it is without questioning anything, but as I got older, I began to question why it was this way. Not good when you attend Christian schools and grow up in a Christian home.

This is why I like Islam. Only one God. No polytheism, no "3 in one" weird Trinity concept. Just you and God, direct connection. No priests to confess to.
Reply

Burninglight
02-13-2012, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Eh, all the different gods and goddesses in Hinduism confuse me. Besides, I like beef too much to give it up.
Learning about other religions doesn't mean you have to practice their life style. I like beef too. ;D
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
Technically, Christianity is monotheism. I don't necessarily think that it's polytheism, but the whole "3 in one deal" freaks me out a little.
Technically, you are correct. Not all Muslims share your view. The term trinity or 3 in one are not mentioned in the Bible; so why should man's explaination of who God is freak you out.? I have come to my conclusions without feeling the need to explain God's nature or essence. We aren't supposed to do that anyway. We are just suppose to trust Him and obey Him. Jesus said call no man father and Catholics call priest father; they are wrong
Reply

MustafaMc
02-13-2012, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Learning about other religions doesn't mean you have to practice their life style. I like beef too. ;D
I don't have a problem discussing religion with adherents of other religions. I have discussed Hindu religion with a co-worker, I have learned about Catholicism from 2 other co-workers and I have discussed Judaism with a Rabbi.
I have come to my conclusions without feeling the need to explain God's nature or essence. We aren't supposed to do that anyway. We are just suppose to trust Him and obey Him.
I can't say that I disagree with you here. Muslims follow Muhammad (saaws) as an act of obedience to Allah (swt) and I assume that you follow Jesus (as) for the same reason.
Reply

Burninglight
02-13-2012, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I don't have a problem discussing religion with adherents of other religions. I have discussed Hindu religion with a co-worker, I have learned about Catholicism from 2 other co-workers and I have discussed Judaism with a Rabbi.
Now that's interesting. I would like to have a discussion with a rabbi. I never did that. Catholicism doesn't interest me. I was born and raised one. I am tired of it. Islam is interesting to me because it is such a great religion and Muhammad was blessed by God through Ishmael and it is part of the Abrahamic faith.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I can't say that I disagree with you here. Muslims follow Muhammad (saaws) as an act of obedience to Allah (swt) and I assume that you follow Jesus (as) for the same reason.
Yes, doesn't it say in the Quran or somewhere to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah?
Reply

MustafaMc
02-13-2012, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Yes, doesn't it say in the Quran or somewhere to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah?
Hey, it seems you have learned something.:statisfie
Quran 49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say: You believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith has not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you anything of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Note that this verse illustrates the difference between a Muslim (one who submits to the will of Allah) and a Mumin (one who has faith in his heart). We obey Muhammad or follow his Sunnah because he was the Messenger of Allah who came to show us how to worship Allah and how to live our lives according to the will of Allah. We love him because of his noble character and because of the hardships he endured to establish Islam as the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Quran 3:31 Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Reply

Burninglight
02-13-2012, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Hey, it seems you have learned something.
Quran 49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say: You believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith has not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you anything of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Note that this verse illustrates the difference between a Muslim (one who submits to the will of Allah) and a Mumin (one who has faith in his heart). We obey Muhammad or follow his Sunnah because he was the Messenger of Allah who came to show us how to worship Allah and how to live our lives according to the will of Allah. We love him because of his noble character and because of the hardships he endured to establish Islam as the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Quran 3:31 Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
"I see" said the blind man to his deaf wife. It is like that for Christians believing Paul and following Paul
:hmm:
Reply

Who Am I?
02-13-2012, 04:13 PM
:sl:

I'd like to talk to a rabbi myself. I've had discussions with Muslims and Christians, but have never really talked to any Jews. I have read the Bible and the Qur'an, but not the Torah.

One of these days I'd like to complete the Triumvirute of Monotheism...
Reply

Burninglight
02-13-2012, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Who Am I?
I'd like to talk to a rabbi myself. I've had discussions with Muslims and Christians, but have never really talked to any Jews. I have read the Bible and the Qur'an, but not the Torah.

One of these days I'd like to complete the Triumvirute of Monotheism...
You really should do that
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!