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User2024
12-03-2011, 06:01 PM
Salam,

A report in Saudi Arabia has warned that if Saudi women were given the right to drive, it would spell the end of virginity in the country.The report was prepared for Saudi Arabia's legislative assembly, the Shura Council, by a well-known conservative academic.
Though there is no formal ban on women driving in Saudi Arabia, if they get behind the wheel, they can be arrested.
Saudi women have mounted several campaigns to try to overturn the ban.
Aside from the practical difficulties it creates, they say it is also illogical as in trying to keep them under family control and away from men, it actually puts them in daily contact with a male driver.
The issue has received huge international attention.
This is going over the top, women should be allowed to drive in my case, they said it will increase, pornography, divorce, homosexuality, seriously? In what way? Women going to run away?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16011926
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GuestFellow
12-04-2011, 01:10 AM
Now, one of their number - well-known academic Kamal Subhi - has presented a new report to the country's legislative assembly, the Shura.
Ah do these scholars ever consider men driving a women in a car? Hello? For a country that separates men and women quite a lot, some of the scholars have no problem for strangers driving women around the city. It just does not make sense. Their reasoning is so flawed.
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IslamicRevival
12-04-2011, 02:11 AM
Who are these Scholars? Banning women from driving is ridiculous and their reasoning for it is even more the ludicrous
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Ali_008
12-04-2011, 03:06 AM
Brothers and Sisters, come on, wake up! You're hearing this news from BBC, the half naked homosexual prostitute sibling of CNN. Are you just blindly gonna believe what she's saying and think our Ulema are so dumb? I'm sure it's being quoted out of context and possibly even being quoted wrong.
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GuestFellow
12-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ali_008
Brothers and Sisters, come on, wake up! You're hearing this news from BBC, the half naked homosexual prostitute sibling of CNN. Are you just blindly gonna believe what she's saying and think our Ulema are so dumb? I'm sure it's being quoted out of context and possibly even being quoted wrong.
Salaam,

What do you mean by half naked homosexual prostitute sibling of CNN? o_o

Yes, the mainstream media is biased at times but there is an element of truth in what they present.

No one here called the scholars dumb and I highly doubt that members are blindly following the mainstream media. Some members are saying that the scholars reasoning behind the ban does not make sense.
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جوري
12-04-2011, 05:13 PM
Do the scholars have names so we can verify this?
If someone wants pre-marital relations they don't need a car to fulfill that desire, also I highly doubt that pre-marital relations is a problem in KSA for the simple reason that most people (in that part of the world) fall into that type of sin because they can't afford marriage and Saudis at large don't strike me as having those restrictions least of which if their women have cars as it is already telling of social status, unlike problems in the poorer regions like Egypt where the average age for marriage is around 30 and many people have what is called 'zawaj 3orfi' where they profess that they're married but not legally so just so.

:w:
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Perseveranze
12-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Any link of the full report, translated by reliable people? Point is, the scholars are alot more knowledgable in these things then we are, I'm sure they've given alot of detail to reasoning than what the "bbc" has shown.

And before we make any judgements, we should wait for the report to be out.
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crimsontide06
12-04-2011, 08:23 PM
This is so crazy...another example of people going to extremes in their religion and making the rest of us look bad :/
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Snowflake
12-04-2011, 08:45 PM
Saudi Arabia’s religious council has ruled that getting rid of the ban on women driving would spell the “end of virginity.” Britain’s Telegraph newspaper reports that conservative scholars at the Majlis al-Ifta’ al-A’ala, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious council, have warned that relaxing the ban would “provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce.

http://regator.com/p/254089278/saudi...ve_would_mean/

Rights activist Waleed Abu Alkhair said Saturday that the document by a well-known academic was sent to the all-male Shura Council, which advises the monarchy. The report by Kamal Subhi claims that allowing women to drive will threaten the country's traditions of virgin brides, he said.
..................
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Ali_008
12-05-2011, 03:49 AM
We only have the UK or US media which is giving out details of this incident. So let's just evaluate what the Ulema could possibly mean by their statements. For once, their too cautious worries can stand true. I guess what they are trying to say is allowing women to drive will make them go wherever they want without any control. This can well, quite honestly, lead to pre-marital relationships. What I'm trying to say is (what I think the Ulema's possible reasoning is) that the law of "traveling with mahram" will be abolished if there are female drivers. Women will travel alone to all sorts of locations and we all know the fitna women carry with themselves. And as a possible consequence, all the mentioned iniquities might rise. And I think the rule was established primarily on this basis. It has worked really well so far too. Of all the countries I know, KSA is the only one where there's no "dating", at least on the outside.

All the members are open to disagree with me and throw rotten eggs at me. But let's just wait to hear the news from a reliable or Muslim source. Not some prostitute, please.
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2011, 11:02 PM
Women driving cars will end virginity in the country? LOL! They are saying that the sexual control of Saudies is really that weak? So much for being chaste for conservative or religious reasons if they can't resist the tiniest pretense of temptation?

Originally Posted by crimsontide06
This is so crazy...another example of people going to extremes in their religion and making the rest of us look bad :/
No kidding! I'm glad to see yourself and other muslims here posting how ridiculus it is.
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Abz2000
12-05-2011, 11:56 PM
this seems a very sensitive issue depending on what side of the spectrum you look at it,
i personally believe that women driving a car without a non-Mahram is not wrong in and of itself,
and i don't think the scholars do either,
their issues are different, it seems to be due to insecurity and i can understand the insecurity they would feel considering how Saudi Arabian tv is changing rapidly,
then there are instances of women riding camels or mules or donkeys, which was not prohibited,
the problem seems to be the privacy of the car and the valid fear that cases of rape etc would most likely increase due to a woman being alone outside with no mahram.
but does that give us an excuse to ban women from driving?
i don't know and refuse to comment as i'd hate to bear any responsibility for oppression or fitnah that may come either way.
the question of the scholars here seems to be about a conservative society going wild.
and about people feeling insecure when letting their daughters out alone in a decaying climate with no-one to report back what's happening
it's not the scholars' fault and it's not the women's fault, it's the fault of the decadent west paying to corrupt the people of the region through lewd media.

when the u.s government enforce irrational unconstitutional and tyrannical laws on the people, it seems easy for many to accept that it's unfair, but somehow justified because of someone else's wrong actions,

how hypocritical is it for the bbc to justify these ridiculous and tyrannical laws by their own politicians and then accuse the arabs of wrongdoing when it is obvious that the scholars have clearly stated that women driving is not un-Islamic in and of itself - but have their reservations due to external factors in which the western governments play an active part?

here's my source
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ropaganda.html

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esperanza
12-06-2011, 01:19 PM
well i looked but could not find a report in any arab news...

but there are saudi scholars and ordinary people concerned that letting women drive will indeed lead to other unacceptable actions and behaVIOURS and things will only get worse....
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User2024
12-06-2011, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by esperanza
well i looked but could not find a report in any arab news...

but there are saudi scholars and ordinary people concerned that letting women drive will indeed lead to other unacceptable actions and behaVIOURS and things will only get worse....
Yes things could go out of hand, but they should let women drive at least during daylight! At night they probably should not, however were are women going to go? They can't get out of the country unless they have a male guardian.


We are in the west so we don't see no problems, however people those scholars might have some really good things which could go wrong, we just heard random stuff on Western Media. Those scholars might have really great points.

And people this is not the worst rule every, many countries have RETARTED rules:

Some countries you can't chew!
China banned "future games" (Anything which is in the future)

But we don't know why they make these they might have good points.
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Insaanah
12-06-2011, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by PoweredByGoogle
The report was prepared for Saudi Arabia's legislative assembly
No it wasn't. It was prepared for an online group of intellectuals and writers.
Originally Posted by PoweredByGoogle
End of virginity' if women drive, Saudi cleric warns
Originally Posted by Ali_008
So let's just evaluate what the Ulema could possibly mean by their statements.
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Ah do these scholars ever consider men driving a women in a car?
Originally Posted by Vision
Who are these Scholars?
Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Do the scholars have names
Who said it was a scholar? The report didn't mention the word scholar, though would have you believe it by putting the word "cleric" in the headline. It was not a scholar, but an academic.

by a well-known conservative academic.
well-known academic Kamal Subhi
Let's not jump to conclusions and malign the scholars; we've enough people to do that for us.

The Majlis Shura has made no ruling. A third party presented Dr al-Subhi's personal study to the Shura council, and one member has endorsed it in his personal capacity. That does not make it in any way, a national view, a Saudi view, a scholars view, a majlis shura view, but one persons personal findings that one person in the shura council has agreed with.

Subhi wrote this 16-page study for a like-minded online group of influential intellectuals and writers. A third party felt it was worthy of a national audience and so took it to the Shura Council, a government-appointed advisory body made up of 150 members. At the Shura Council, the study was not only received but a Shura member also personally endorsed it. It was later leaked to women's rights activists who scanned a copy and posted it for the whole world to see.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...?newsfeed=true

While women may not be allowed to drive there for whatever reason, to take one person's views and present it like that with international media attention is not normal.

If an academic presented his own personal views (let's say weird and whacky for argument's sake) to some committee in the UK, would it make UK headline news? No. Forget about it making international headlines. So why this? I can imagine it would suit some to malign Saudi (a Muslim country) and their "backward" ways.

The media is one of the most powerful insituitions in the world - it can influence how we see things, who we view in a negative light, who we view in a positive light, it can make us believe untruths as being complete truth. Yet we can't do without it either...
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GuestFellow
12-06-2011, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

Who said it was a scholar? The report didn't mention the word scholar, though would have you believe it by putting the word "cleric" in the headline. It was not a scholar, but an academic.
Salaam,

Ah by scholar, I meant the academic in the quote (Kamal Subhi). I was not using the term scholar in a strict sense.

Anyway, there are Islamic scholars that support the ban on women driving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8KX1ADvclk

^ I'm not sure the translation is accurate since it is from MEMRI (a very biased institution) but I think it contains an element of truth.
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Ali_008
12-07-2011, 08:38 AM
^^^ mashAllah, if only all of us had the same IQ as Sis Insaanah. :unsure: :clever:
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ariginality
12-07-2011, 09:54 AM
Imagine: thousands of women who have never driven before all jump on the road the same day. I wouldn't want to be in the country!
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ardianto
12-07-2011, 12:48 PM
:sl:

Not the prohibition itself that made me concerned, but matters which related to this prohibition that made me concerned.

Driving is an activity which someone control a machine named car. This activity is halal as long as not for bad purpose. There is no any daleel, from Nash or from Aql, that can be used to prohibit women drive car.

But, can ulama prohibit ummah to do a halal activity ?. Yes, ulama can prohibit ummah do a halal activity, as non-shar'i prohibition. However, some people who support this prohibition have gone farther with make this prohibition as Shar'i Haram which individu who break this prohibition get sin.

Try to seek statements about it from those people, you will find statements like "In Islam women are haram to drive car".

This statement caused a controversy among Muslims. Many other Muslims were questioning, which daleel that they use to make this prohibition as Shar'i Haram ? Those people could not answer this question, but they replied with many fatawa complete with daleel from Qur'an and hadith that actually can not be used to forbid women to drive car.

Try to read those fatawa, you will find many daleel that can be used to prohibit women leave home without mahram, but you will never find any daleel that can be used to prohibit women drive car with their mahram. And I have read many question from other Muslims who ask, if they only want to protect women from evil men, why they still prohibit women drive car with their mahram inside the car ?.

But, what that made concerned are statements from people who support this prohibition. Full of prejudice and based on mysogyny. "End of virginity if women drive" just another version of their mysogyny statement. When I visited a Muslim website that run by people who support this prohibition I found a statement from a 'scholar'. He said, if women are allowed to drive, they will chase men on the road and 'drag' those men into zina.

Other statements are, women drive will increase divorce rate, women will cause danger on the road if they drive. And they said it while the world saw Saudi men doing crazy on the road with their illegal drifting.

Those are matters that make me concerned.

I do not stand with those who want western style freedom for women in Saudi. As a non-Saudi I don't have right to protest this prohibition. But as a Muslim I must criticize those who support this prohibition.

First, do not say "In Islam is Haram for women to drive car". There is no any daleel that can support this 'fatwa'. Their daleel are only about women who leave home without mahram and can not be used to prohibit women drive car with their mahram.

Second, stop making mysogyny comments regarding to this prohibition. Statements that issued by Muslim will be regarded as Islamic statements. Those statement will make Islam look bad as mysogyny religion that only for men.
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Muezzin
12-10-2011, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by ariginality
Imagine: thousands of women who have never driven before all jump on the road the same day. I wouldn't want to be in the country!
If you owned a driving school in that country, you might disagree.
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CosmicPathos
12-10-2011, 07:37 PM
hilarious title! The women in that country are already loosing virginity whether they drive or not.

Saudi Arabia has divorce rate at epidemic scales. My friend was telling me that the government is taking special measures like financial incentives to keep the couples together! Its unbelievable what's happening in Saudi.
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Crystal
12-11-2011, 12:59 AM
What about men? They can also lose their virginity! Adultery is not confined to women..oh dear
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GuestFellow
12-11-2011, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Crystal
What about men? They can also lose their virginity! Adultery is not confined to women..oh dear
Hi,

You do get that problem. In some cultures, people usually blame the problems on the women, even though the man has done wrong as well. Like the hijab. Most Muslims from my experience are very judgemental to Muslim women that do not wear the Hijab. However, most ignore that most Muslim men do not grow the beard, even though it is highly encouraged and considered compulsory by some Muslim scholars.
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Muhaba
12-11-2011, 10:59 AM
i can't see what reasons they can have for not allowing women to drive. every islamic ruling has to be based on evidence, from the Quran or Sunnah or even ijmah of our righteous predecessors (which is also based on the former two). cars didn't exist back then, but horses and camels did and women did ride them. If women were allowed to ride horses, camels, etc, then they should be allowed to drive as well. not allowing women to drive out of the city is a different matter, because there is a hadith that prohibits women from travelling alone. but not allowing women to drive is ridiculous and has no islamic basis, imo.
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ardianto
12-11-2011, 01:08 PM
Saudi women are not allowed to drive. If they want to go to a place, they are driven by men. Saudi women are obligated to wear niqab that cover their faces, except eyes. But many of them have beautiful eyes.

Their beautiful eyes can attract men. Men who attracted to beautiful eyes woman that they see in public area, usually will follow this woman to know where is she lives, or record the car plate number that ride by this woman. But they didn't do further because they afraid to a man who guard this woman. If women drive in Saudi Arabia without adult male, those men will chase them.

This is information that I got from several sources in Saudi Arabia.

Majority of ulama in the world allow women drive car, even alone, as long as meet certain conditions. But if we ask those ulama "should women drive car without mahram in Saudi Arabia?" maybe all of them will answer "no!".

Situation in Saudi Arabia is different. There is a bad image of Saudi men as men who can't see women without doing something wrong. Not all of them, of course. But according to some sources in Saudi Arabia, at there we can find men like this in everywhere.

Originally Posted by WRITER
i can't see what reasons they can have for not allowing women to drive. every islamic ruling has to be based on evidence, from the Quran or Sunnah or even ijmah of our righteous predecessors (which is also based on the former two). cars didn't exist back then, but horses and camels did and women did ride them. If women were allowed to ride horses, camels, etc, then they should be allowed to drive as well. not allowing women to drive out of the city is a different matter, because there is a hadith that prohibits women from travelling alone. but not allowing women to drive is ridiculous and has no islamic basis, imo.
Shaykh Muqbil from Yemen is a non-Saudi scholar who prohibit women to drive car except in emergency situation. Different than Saudi Ulama who prohibit women to drive without
exception.

And in a statement, Shaykh Muqbil said "We can't say this (prohibition for women to drive) is haram". This is because there is no any daleel in Islam that can be used to prohibit women control car as driver. Woman traveling alone is different matter.

Like I have written, ulama can prohibit ummah do something that actually halal as non-Shar'i prohibition. But unfortunately I have found some fatawa that clearly classify this prohibition as Shar'i Haram which those who break this prohibition get sin.

Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
You do get that problem. In some cultures, people usually blame the problems on the women, even though the man has done wrong as well.
In my place, if an old ustadz see a man tease a woman, he will beat this man with his rattan stick. But unfortunately, in some other cultures, in situation like this they will blame the women, not the men.
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Pygoscelis
12-12-2011, 05:13 AM
^ I always found that backwards, and more than a little insulting to the males of our species. Can these men seriously not control themselves should they see the eyes of a woman? Do people really legit fear that these men will all go chasing after and raping the women after seeing their eyes at the wheel of a car next to them on the roadway? And if saudi men are really this unable to control their urges then maybe they should start wearing blinders or maybe they should stay at home instead of going out where they may see women.
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Crystal
12-12-2011, 09:48 AM
Yea that is a good point you made Tragic Typos about hijab, but men also wear hijab in the sense they are also told to 'lower their gaze', so yes I find it awful that everyone focuses on the women for having to guard her modesty when quite clearly the man has to guard his modesty too. It seems like its the men who need to control themselves more not the women.
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Wyatt
12-15-2011, 10:12 PM
The women are being distrusted and treated like animals being denied such basic freedom. There is no way something like this can be covered up by a claim for protection of modesty.

My father cheated on my mother and she only used the car to get to work, store, classes, etc. so that she could raise me and my brother when my father left to start a new family.

When I first found out women can't drive in Saudi Arabia, I was dumbfounded. I still don't even know what to think about it.
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islamica
12-15-2011, 10:21 PM
Saudis are already loosing their virginity via facebook hook ups. Driving has nothing to do with it, you can't control youth or people by limiting them, educating them will lead to less immorality then all these "laws".
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CosmicPathos
12-15-2011, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Hi,

You do get that problem. In some cultures, people usually blame the problems on the women, even though the man has done wrong as well. Like the hijab. Most Muslims from my experience are very judgemental to Muslim women that do not wear the Hijab. However, most ignore that most Muslim men do not grow the beard, even though it is highly encouraged and considered compulsory by some Muslim scholars.
All right lets not compare the ruling on beard with the ruling on hijab, totally two different concepts, shall we? Purpose of beard is not to hide "beauty" of men, unlike the hijab. Duh. Yes some scholars have considered beard to be obligatory but the reasons for that are different from the reasons why Hijab is obligatory. Almost all scholars have considered hijab obligatory. Do not you think your comment is a bit hypocritical and dishonest?
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Banu_Hashim
12-15-2011, 11:27 PM
Shaykh Nasir-ud-deen Al-Albaani (rahimahullah), one of the great scholars of our era who passed away a decade ago, was asked:
Question: Is it permissible for a woman to drive a car?
Answer: If it is permissible for her to ride upon a (female) donkey then it is permissible for her to drive a car.
Question: But there is a difference between a donkey and a car.
Answer: Which is more concealing – riding upon a donkey or in a car? I would suggest (riding in) a car.
(Translated by Adnan bin Salam)

Shaykh Muqbil Al-Waadi'ee (rahimahullah) another giant of our era issued a similar ruling:

Question: What is the ruling on a woman driving a car, and what is your view in making it similar to a woman riding a beast (i.e. Horse)?

Answer: If the woman is righteous and is safe from fitnah and she needs something in the market then this is no problem (driving) and I do not see any prevention in this. For the car is a machine made of iron and we do not make this Haraam upon her.

Do read the article in it's entirety, it gives a holistic view on the issue.

http://saudilife.net/component/conte...n-saudi-arabia
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Abz2000
12-16-2011, 12:06 AM
although i won't give an opinion on this subject, (my personal belief is that women can drive, i sometimes get a lift off my sister)
i don't think the scholars are questioning the permissibility of driving a car in itself,
they are questioning the risk of letting their daughters out alone in a society being constantly corrupted by external interests.

surely you don't spend money on store security just for the sake of it and you definitely don't just take into account the cost of security alone, otherwise you'd never hire them.
in the same way many don't question the cancer causing radiation scanners at airports simply because the government has staged attacks and implied that Islam is the enemy.
if you took into account the scanners alone - just for the sake of having them there - they'd never be "somehow justified".

if there was the rule of Allah and people were not being corrupted to the soul, they would NEVER bring into question the permissibility of women driving - as it is permissible.
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
they are questioning the risk of letting their daughters out alone in a society being constantly corrupted by external interests.
I understand those risks.

But what if the daughters are driving with their fathers, or brothers or husbands in the car?
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Abz2000
12-16-2011, 01:26 AM
then it would be foolish to prevent them in my opinion.
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Ali_008
12-16-2011, 01:36 AM
The Shariah does allow women to drive but the comments posed in this case are more related to the Saudi society than any fatwa. The cleric is just being conservative. He's just afraid that a drastic change in such a clever and peaceful society will lead to more fitna, eventually.
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Riana17
12-17-2011, 09:56 AM
Salam

1/4 of my mind says its okay not to allow women to drive, because I've seen MIDDLE EAST countries
Some Arab countries are really delayed, how I say that?

If you go to some Arab country, housemaids are treated as slave, they dont implement their rights even Prophet Muhammad teaches us to that we are all equal.
I've been to Saudi too, I was not wearing Avaya or cultural black dress, Just wearing pants and long dress till knees with Hijab and I felt that some men were looking at me like crazy, I felt I was raped by their eyes HAHAHAHA lol

Then I've been to 7 emirates of United Arab, and I fall inlove with the freedom esp Sharjah and Abu dhabi, (I just didnt like dubai much coz U dont feel islam very much anymore due to clubs and drinks etc)... UAE is amazing in short, women drive, housemaids have freedom and weekends, people are educated,,, its a warm country, mashallah, and its up to you, go to club or go to mosque, Quran 2:256 there is no compulsion in religion


Same as Bahrain, people are friendly and nice... so my conclusion is that I understand why they are trying to ban driving in KSA, however I think it cant last forever, inshallah
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GuestFellow
12-17-2011, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Riana17
.
I've been to Saudi too, I was not wearing Avaya or cultural black dress, Just wearing pants and long dress till knees with Hijab and I felt that some men were looking at me like crazy, I felt I was raped by their eyes HAHAHAHA lol
Salaam,

I find that disturbing. Acid needs to be poured down their eyes. Harsh but effective. :)
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Ali_008
12-18-2011, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Riana17
I've been to Saudi too, I was not wearing Avaya or cultural black dress, Just wearing pants and long dress till knees with Hijab and I felt that some men were looking at me like crazy, I felt I was raped by their eyes HAHAHAHA lol
I know what you're talking about. I have a friend who has lived the majority of his life in KSA and he had to say the same thing when asked about it. I was discussing about this issue with him and he said women would themselves give up driving, if it ever starts in KSA because of the reaction of men. Men will flog to those cars with a women driver and their non-stop stares will make it too uncomfortable for women to be drive in peace. Astaghfirullah. :skeleton:
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Riana17
12-18-2011, 11:53 AM
Asalam,

Well even with rich & little advance country like Q8, its very common for men to race & tease girl's cars.
So I understand where this proposal is coming from, we don't know the real thing but I got a little idea of Saudi and for the 1st time I understand women in Niqab.

I hope they'll get proper Islamic education, its the only key.

Well I have to mention that I've heard many times contrary to this negative image, people of Medina are quiet different with amazing manners, Subhanallah
Husband told me its because Prophet Muhammad prayed for them, those who went for Hajj & visit the Prophet's mosque can testify to this perhaps.
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Ghazalah
12-19-2011, 02:43 AM
If women drive then of course unthinkable things will happen! Zina will be on the rise, more suicides etc. I back this rule 100%! :statisfie
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Abz2000
12-19-2011, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by Riana17
Well I have to mention that I've heard many times contrary to this negative image, people of Medina are quiet different with amazing manners, Subhanallah
Husband told me its because Prophet Muhammad prayed for them, those who went for Hajj & visit the Prophet's mosque can testify to this perhaps.
yes, they smile when talking to you, you see them as brothers and sisters in a totally different way, it's a feeling of calm and laid-backness,
makkah however is a merchant town and everything about it seems busy,
it's difficult to describe.
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Muhaba
12-19-2011, 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Saudi women are not allowed to drive. If they want to go to a place, they are driven by men. Saudi women are obligated to wear niqab that cover their faces, except eyes. But many of them have beautiful eyes.

Their beautiful eyes can attract men. Men who attracted to beautiful eyes woman that they see in public area, usually will follow this woman to know where is she lives, or record the car plate number that ride by this woman. But they didn't do further because they afraid to a man who guard this woman. If women drive in Saudi Arabia without adult male, those men will chase them.

This is information that I got from several sources in Saudi Arabia.

Majority of ulama in the world allow women drive car, even alone, as long as meet certain conditions. But if we ask those ulama "should women drive car without mahram in Saudi Arabia?" maybe all of them will answer "no!".

Situation in Saudi Arabia is different. There is a bad image of Saudi men as men who can't see women without doing something wrong. Not all of them, of course. But according to some sources in Saudi Arabia, at there we can find men like this in everywhere.


Shaykh Muqbil from Yemen is a non-Saudi scholar who prohibit women to drive car except in emergency situation. Different than Saudi Ulama who prohibit women to drive without
exception.

And in a statement, Shaykh Muqbil said "We can't say this (prohibition for women to drive) is haram". This is because there is no any daleel in Islam that can be used to prohibit women control car as driver. Woman traveling alone is different matter.

Like I have written, ulama can prohibit ummah do something that actually halal as non-Shar'i prohibition. But unfortunately I have found some fatawa that clearly classify this prohibition as Shar'i Haram which those who break this prohibition get sin.


In my place, if an old ustadz see a man tease a woman, he will beat this man with his rattan stick. But unfortunately, in some other cultures, in situation like this they will blame the women, not the men.
i don't really agree with what you wrote about Saudi men being so immoral that they will follow women around. if they are, then they can follow women around even more easily when women are walking.

as for making something halal haram, it is wrong and even the Prophet (SAW) didn't make anything halal haram. He specifically said on one occasion (concerning Ali R's decision to marry a second wife) that he (SAW) wasn't making something halal haram because noone other than Allah has the right to say that somethng is halal or haram.

the ullama do say that a thing should be made prohibited if it leads to haram but the fact is that the thing being made prohibited is already wrong. like prohibiting mixing of men and women because it will lead to immorality / zina. in this case, mixing of men and women is already an unislamic thing.
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ardianto
12-19-2011, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by WRITER
i don't really agree with what you wrote about Saudi men being so immoral that they will follow women around. if they are, then they can follow women around even more easily when women are walking.
Assalamualaikum, sister.

There is a brother who sometime I discuss and even learn Islam from him. As far I know, he never said haram for women to drive car. However, special for prohibition in Saudi Arabia, he support it. And he said, it because he got information about situation in Saudi Arabia from brothers who live there.

It motivate me to looking for information about situation in Saudi Arabia. And I found some information from Saudi brothers that similar than information that received by brother who I mention above. what I've witten in that post was sourced from brothers who live in Saudi Arabia.

There is image of people in a community. Image of Brazilian men are footballers, image of Japanese men are hard workers. But image of Saudi men?. Sis, image of Saudi men as people who cannot see women without doing something wrong is image that known by other people in the world.

I understand if Saudi brothers want to angry to me, I will accept their anger. But I never say all Saudi men are same. There are many good Saudi men, but unfortunately other people do not know about it. Only Saudi people themselves who can change this negative image into positive image. I hope good Saudi brother can do something.

as for making something halal haram, it is wrong and even the Prophet (SAW) didn't make anything halal haram. He specifically said on one occasion (concerning Ali R's decision to marry a second wife) that he (SAW) wasn't making something halal haram because noone other than Allah has the right to say that somethng is halal or haram.

the ullama do say that a thing should be made prohibited if it leads to haram but the fact is that the thing being made prohibited is already wrong. like prohibiting mixing of men and women because it will lead to immorality / zina. in this case, mixing of men and women is already an unislamic thing.
Like I have said, ulama can forbid ummah do or use something that halal but cannot make this prohibition as "Shar'i Haram" which those who break this prohibition get sin (and punishment in hell). It has confirmed by a local Islamic teacher, he told me, change law like this is not allowed because we cannot change Sharia.

Driving car is an activity which someone control a mobile machine that called car. This activity is permissible for men and also for women. If a woman drive car with intention to meet a non-hahram man, ulama can say it haram because the intention and action in this case can lead to zina. But driving the car itself is not haram.

My reason to make statement "ulama can prohibit ummah do something that actually halal as non-Shar'i prohibition. But unfortunately I have found some fatawa that clearly classify this prohibition as Shar'i Haram which those who break this prohibition get sin" is because I found some people made fatwa/statement "Driving car is Haram for women", and what they meant clearly Shar'i haram because they also talked about punishment in hell for women who drive car. This is the reason why they still prohibit women to drive although their mahram are in the car.
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Riana17
12-19-2011, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
yes, they smile when talking to you, you see them as brothers and sisters in a totally different way, it's a feeling of calm and laid-backness,
makkah however is a merchant town and everything about it seems busy,
it's difficult to describe.
Alhamdollellah, you been there? Mashallah, now I am jealous :)
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Rhubarb Tart
12-19-2011, 03:26 PM
:sl:

Reading the comments make me dislike Saudi men and think they are perverts!!

Hijab is simply not good enough for these men. I will say this; Saudi women will never prosper in any field in that society. They will continue to rely on non Muslim and Muslim woman from aboard to be physiotherapist, doctors, nurses etc etc.

And their men are too good to use their cars to meet another women. The saudi men are all angels and would never do such a thing. the women are devils and will use cars to meet other men. These women have nothing but bad thoughts on their mind. ^o)
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ardianto
12-19-2011, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
Reading the comments make me dislike Saudi men and think they are perverts!!

Hijab is simply not good enough for these men. I will say this; Saudi women will never prosper in any field in that society. They will continue to rely on non Muslim and Muslim woman from aboard to be physiotherapist, doctors, nurses etc etc.

And their men are too good to use their cars to meet another women. The saudi men are all angels and would never do such a thing. the women are devils and will use cars to meet other men. These women have nothing but bad thoughts on their mind.
Astaghfirullah. Sis, even I who reveal a reality that Saudi men have bad image is not dare to say like this.

Not all Saudi men are bad.
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Rhubarb Tart
12-19-2011, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Astaghfirullah. Sis, even I who reveal a reality that Saudi men have bad image is not dare to say like this.

Not all Saudi men are bad.
There was a time where I defended them to death. They can’t even handle their women in a car because it too much fitna. That is ridiculous and obviously they regard themselves highly because they seem to allow themselves to use the car and their women are obviously devil and simply cannot be trusted.

Why the hell should I respect that? They obviously think they are superior then their other half. Speak to them, they think and act like they are better than every women!

Dont worry, I dont rate their women highly either! And Saudi people are not the only people I dont rate highly! I also think British people are hypocrites...
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GuestFellow
12-19-2011, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106

Dont worry, I dont rate their women highly either! And Saudi people are not the only people I dont rate highly! I also think British people are hypocrites...
Salaam,

Who are you to judge an entire population? Treat everyone as individuals.
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Ramadhan
12-19-2011, 11:32 PM
:sl:

This proves again, that Al Qur'an is still as relevant now as it was 1,400 years, even in the land where Muhanmmad (saw) was born and where the people speak the language of Al Qur'an:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts'' (Qur'an 24:30)
"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts'' (Qur'an 24:31)
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)

It does seem that saudi women are already able to fulfill their obligation per Allah command in regard to keeping themselves covered, however it also does seem that saudi men are only able to fulfill their obligation (or they feel they are weak) by asking the women to do more than they are required.
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Riana17
12-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Astaghfirullah. Sis, even I who reveal a reality that Saudi men have bad image is not dare to say like this.

Not all Saudi men are bad.

Astaghfirullah

Look at yourself before judging others…

by Saad on April 15, 2008 in Chill Yo Islam Yo
Salam,
Their are two things which go hand in hand, one is to internalize criticism and the other is judging yourself before judging others. Let’s accept it, No one is perfect, we aren’t angels.
We gotta constantly discipline our soul and most importantly be aware of our actions, because the Angels are writing down, and it don’t stop till your soul leaves your body. Look at yourself in the mirror, ask yourself What kind of a person am I? Evaluate your performance as a believer.
The question for today is do we put ourselves above other people when we approach them. You already know the devil is working hard to kick that pride in us, but that’s a disease of the heart and we gotta work on that Inshallah.
The Prophet saw said: “No one with the slightest particle of arrogance in his heart will enter paradise.”
A man remarked, “But a man likes his clothes to be nice and his sandals good.” The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “Verily, Allah is beautiful and loves beauty. Arrogance is refusing to acknowledge what is right and considering others beneath one.” (Mishkat al-Masabih)
What a beautiful Hadith, to put things into perspective, basically by judging others you energize that pride and start thinking your all pious. Chill Yo that’s Haraam Yo. See the interesting thing about living life as a Muslim is that to reaffirm your faith you gotta ask yourself, Am I living by the Sunnah? Do I follow the commands of Allah swt? If not then how can you expect a return in the hereafter. It’s all relative and we gotta stick to the principles. Remember Heaven or Hell can mean a blink of an eye.
Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) said: ” The world and the hereafter are like the east and west, and the traveler is between them. To the extent that he draws close to one, he distances himself from the other” (Ibid., 647.) So basically make up your mind. Either you go wild right now and suffer in the hereafter or you chill out, attain taqwa and chill in paradise.
Nowadays we have this wildfire spreading in peoples minds that they are quick to judge other people. Not only that, but they also like to spread rumors and if one wants to change they continue to backbite or bring up incidents from the past. As a result this destroys motivation for the individual who wants to change.
Of course it shouldn’t, we should all recognize that we are accountable to Allah (swt) alone and from him we come and to him we shall return. If a believer is making an effort to strive for good and you keep knocking him off the straight path. Then just accept that your the devils advocate.
The reason why I bought this up is because I feel that we might at times be driven with the mentality to point out other’s mistakes and elevate ourselves above others. The bottom line is we don’t know who Allah (swt) loves more. So stamp this Hadith in your heart.
Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Peace and salutations be upon him) said, “ Should you become eager to mention another’s faults, recall your own. “ (Ar-Rafi)
At the end of it all, we gotta understand when someone tells us something for our own benefit, its to help us. It’s that simple, don’t assume that he or she is trying to put you down, If you do that I promise you will never change. This is something we are all working on to some degree everyday, the better we get the more impact we will see in our life.
May Allah (swt) help us take constructive criticism and give us understanding of the deen and dunya! Ameen…don’t get it twisted.


http://chillyoislamyo.com/look-at-yo...udging-others/
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Rhubarb Tart
12-20-2011, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

Who are you to judge an entire population? Treat everyone as individuals.
I tend to treat people as individual if I meet them because I don’t ask or care where they come from.
Saudi people, however as whole are hypocrites and judgemental especially since most of them support this ruling and support other ills in their own society. And there is something seriously wrong with their men if they have to go above and beyond what is recommended in Islam.

plus, a lot of muslims look up to them and think everything they are doing is right.
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GuestFellow
12-20-2011, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
I tend to treat people as individual if I meet them because I don’t ask or care where they come from.
Saudi people, however as whole are hypocrites and judgemental especially since most of them support this ruling and support other ills in their own society. And there is something seriously wrong with their men if they have to go above and beyond what is recommended in Islam.

plus, a lot of muslims look up to them and think everything they are doing is right.
Salaam,

The problem is your generalising. Not everyone is the same. What evidence is there that most Saudi people are hypocrites and judgemental? I just don't think it is wise to make an assumption about an entire population.

Though there is an element of truth in what your saying.
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esperanza
12-20-2011, 07:15 PM
salam
it is wrong to critiise saudis as a whole..do you live among saudis.or do you know many saudis personally...i dont think you just go by things you have heard...every nation every culture has good and bad among them,,,
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IslamicRevival
12-20-2011, 08:30 PM
Can this thread be locked now? Its pretty annoying seeing this pop up in the new posts every time.
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Riana17
12-22-2011, 10:17 AM
Asalam,

I live in GCC so I can talk about them

Due to lack of education we think Saudis are closed minded

But for I know they are the most hard working people in Gulf country and most kind, and our dear Prophet is from Saudi and the Sahabaas etc, sure thing there are many exceptional Saudi people now and before, Prophet's good deeds cannot be forgotten and people are trying hard to follow them.

But then how can we know, for we can barely know ourselves?

In my native Christian country, Govt or church implements one wife, whereas an average man has 2-5 girlfriends, 2-10 children out of wedlock, mostly do not go to church at all but still claims they are Christians and talk proudly about Christ, celebrates Christmas but doesnt know what Christmas is all about, we are also famous in doing charities... yes when in television
so much things to share to you

But do I talk they are all hypocrite in public? I dont coz I ashame to say that, I am aware of situation coz im not ignorant, but dare I say it all ? I myself is a sinner how can I put all the nation down, I can talk about a person or small group but this is outrageous to label them all


Only Allah knows the pure truth. Let's try to avoid and remind ourselves that we can be one of the people we hate so much one day. May Allah protect our mouth and our path. Amen
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Muezzin
12-24-2011, 08:37 PM
Earlier in this thread, Sister Insaanah presented the facts pertaining to this article, and clarified that the opinion expressed did not necessarily reflect that of the Majlis Shura.

The wider issue of the right of Saudi women to drive does deserve discussion, but we must be careful not to tar all Saudis with the same brush when so doing.

Because all discussion of the actual article that generated this thread has ceased, it seems appropriate to close it.
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